So is Slovenia Balkan or not?
Posted by PurpleMeerkats462@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 193 comments
Gonna preface this by saying I’m from New Zealand, so forgive me if I don’t know the Balkans that well, I’ve only ever met two or three people from Balkan countries in my lifetime.
The one Slovenian person I know/went to high school with has said that Slovenia is Balkan, but from what I’ve seen on social media, many Slovenians say that their country is geographically Balkan, but culturally more like Central Europe.
I guess I thought Slovenia was Balkan because they were part of Yugoslavia, and in my understanding “Balkan = former Yugoslavia”. But I can understand why many people actually from Slovenia wouldn’t consider their country Balkan (wasn’t Slovenia part of Austria-Hungary before joining Yugoslavia?).
What do people from the balkans think? Is Slovenia Balkan or not?
Lblink-9@reddit
Part of Slovenia is geographically Balkan yes, and we're a part of Central Europe. Both things can be true at the same time, even culturally
Substratas@reddit
This! 👏👏👏
tranhuudats@reddit
bot
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
What part? Because according the most used definition are the northern bordering rivers Kupa, Sava and Danube. Also I’m curious how is Slovenian culture Balkan?
FreedomMan47@reddit
Dude....there is practically no cultural difference between istrians in Croatia and primorci in Slovenia. Just a random ass border. The culture is 100% compatible and very similar in the rest of Slovenia too.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
It’s completely normal that bordering regions share cultural similarities so that part isn’t surprising at all. Saying there’s no cultural difference is definitely an exaggeration though of course there are overlaps just like there are similarities between Slovenia and for example the Trieste region in Italy. That doesn’t mean Slovenia as a whole shares Italian culture. The coastal region is only about 1% of Slovenia so claiming the rest of Slovenia has Mediterranean culture or something like that is just silly. Most of Slovenia has its own distinct culture quite different from the coast.
LXXXVI@reddit
I think the point was that someone from Koper has much more in common with someone from Rovinj than either has with someone from Murska Sobota or Čakovec. Ergo, borders are irrelevant for culture.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Yes coastal towns around the northern Adriatic share certain historical and cultural influences (especially from Venice) like architecture and cuisine. On the other hand someone from Koper and someone from Murska Sobota both share Slovenian culture, identity and language which is a much stronger bond overall.
LXXXVI@reddit
Slovenian culture? What Slovenian culture?
Slovenia has at least 3 distinct cultures based on whether that specific region was owned by Austria, Italy, or Hungary.
What Slovenian language? You mean everyone's second language that we use to talk to each other because otherwise people living 100km apart can't understand each other? A person from Čakovec is going to understand Prekmurski way better than anyone a hour away from Murska Sobota in Slovenia would, nevermind someone from the seaside.
Slovenian identity, yeah, but only because Slovenian identity is basically "we're not".
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Yes there are regional differences in dialects and local traditions which is normal anywhere. But Slovenia as a country isn’t defined solely by territory, it’s built on shared language, culture and identity. People from Koper and Murska Sobota may have different local customs but they’re united by the Slovene language, national institutions and a broader Slovenian cultural identity.
But I understand that for someone in the diaspora who despises their own country and culture this might be a challenging concept to grasp.
LXXXVI@reddit
Slovenia being united by the Slovene language is no different than Europe being united by English at this point.
First of all, historically, when "Slovenian" first started emerging, Prekmurje had a competing linguistic norm of its own, so it's not even like it's a dialect, it's a full-on separate language, arguably more different from Slovenian than Croatian was and is both now and especially back then. And I'd argue there's several cases like that around Slovenia, they just weren't lucky enough to have nerds hardcore enough to go translate the Bible and such.
2nd of all, the "Slovenian" culture is completely artificial, just like the Italian, German, Austrian, etc. It's not like nation states are some ancient invention. Regional cultures are the primary cultures of just about everyone in Slovenia.
And get the fuck out with the diaspora nonsense. I moved out less than 3 years ago after 30+ years of living there. I don't despise the nation. I think the nation as such just isn't some deep thing and is simply a cover identity that joins the actual primary regional identities under one umbrella that makes them distinct from the neighbours because of survival throughout history.
Culturally, Slovenia is a federation of regions with distinct languages, cuisines, traditions, and cultures in general. And no amount of trying to genocide the regional cultures out of existence, which has been the primary mission of central Slovenia for ages, is going to change that.
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
I guess you have never seen Slovenes drive 😂
Since Balkans is quite a bullshit concept (it's not even a peninsula really), the northern border is debatable. One definition, the one used by Žižek in that video, is that the border follows Ljubljanica instead of Kupa.
This would split Ljubljana in two. The cute old town and castle would be in the Balkans, and commieblocks, chimneys and gaseri would be in Mitteleuropa. Therefore it's the correct definition.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I’m not sure what driving has to do with that.
Žižek doesn’t actually use a clear definition there, the video is meant as satire. I’d advise not taking it too seriously. In the same clip he also says that Balkan women “get beaten and they like it.” Would you consider that a serious or accurate claim?
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
Of course it's an accurate claim, if they didn't like getting beaten, they wouldn't be in the Balkans.
My point, if I'm not joking, is about the same as Žižek's; the whole concept is so nebulous that there is no way to place a border on it. And on top of that, the whole point of thinking about the Balkans is to either point at it and say it's not us, or to be a masochist. Which ties in to women liking beatings. This is a masochistic subreddit.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
He was just standing in front of Ljubljana to use it as a backdrop for his satirical video not because it marks an actual “border”. He’s a philosopher, not a geographer. He could have chosen any river eg Mura, Savinja or another as the setting. The point of the joke is to highlight how absurd the idea of the Balkan Peninsula is: it’s not a real peninsula, and cultures change gradually rather than abruptly.
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
I think you didn't really read what I wrote but okay.
sgtmajordeal@reddit
Ah yes, the famous arbitrary divide based on a joke
TwoFistsOneVi@reddit
Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of geography?
Teghendion@reddit
lol what?
AmadisHali@reddit
Looking at it as an outsider, it seems that there's a split where some Slovenes identify more strongly with the Austro-Hungarian influence which would make it Central European, while some identify more strongly with the Yugoslav influence which would make it Balkan, so it's kind of just stuck in between.
I mean, if you look at the current most famous Slovenian person, which is Luka Doncic, he is undeniably as Balkan of a person as you can get. However, I think I've heard that he has some Serbian ancestry, which probably contributes to that. And that's the thing with all the former Yugoslav republics, when they were a combined nation there was a lot of migration and ethnic inter-mixing between them so you'll find that a large percentage of Slovenians have Serbo-Croatian ancestry, and probably even some Bosnian ancestry as well. Conversely, there should be plenty of people with Slovene ancestry in Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia too.
So I get the argument of it being borderline non-Balkan, but once you've been part of Yugoslavia, it's hard to get rid of that collective identity.
Smrekovasmola@reddit
Its basically Slovenes vs people in Slovenia with balkan ancestry.
Luka doncic is a great example. His surname ends with in ić. That is a sign that some ones ancestry is not from Slovenia. We call them čefurji.
You have to realise that before 1945 and socialist yugoslavia there was very little balkan influence in Ljubljana.
There were probably more Germans living in Slovenia than balkan people. All this changed in 45 when the germans left and people from serbia and bosnia came to Slovenia for better life.
It was also an official policy to mix nations, because in the beggining the goal of communist party was to creata a yugoslav nation. That didnt work out because we are too different.
Basically the story that sums up balkanization in Slovenia is the story of a restaurant called Čad. The original ow ers were Slovenes.
After 1945 the restaurant was nationalized and it was lended to a serbian migrant. He started serving balkan cuisine. Since there were more and more balkan people in Ljubljana his restaurant became quite famous and well visited. And then Slovenes started to eat balkan food as well.
After 1991 there was a denationalization process where the restaurant was returned to the original owners. They decided to stop serving balkan food and turn it back to slovenian restaurant. They barely bankrupted because of.low traffic. They then started serving balkan food again.
So Slovenia was in no way balkan before 45 and a lot of Slovenes born before that they jave a really distinct different culture.
Like my grandparents and even my parents would never ever make čevapčiči at home. It was just not a part of their cuisine.
I am younger and i often eat čevapčiči at home.
So Slovenia is slowly but surely becoming balkan due tu influx of balkan migrants and interethnic relations.
But if you talk to any patriotic or conservative Slovene that has no ić people in his ancestry....we are not balkan
AmadisHali@reddit
Interesting, very informative comment. I was under the impression that ić surnames had always existed in Slovenia (despite perhaps being a minority) and thought that was a reason why you guys joined Yugoslavia. I didn’t know that a segregative term like “čefurji” existed for the ić group.
Would you say that the čefurji are less patriotic and display more attachment to their ethnic origins, or have they fully adopted a Slovene identity by this point? When I look at Doncic, for example, he seems to be a pretty patriotic Slovenian. Is he an outlier or is that common?
I’ve always been a bit interested in learning more about Slovenia because my grandfather was nearly selected to be Albania’s ambassador to Slovenia back in the day. Despite being born and raised in Albania, he actually had an ić last name, because similar to what Slovenia calls čefurji, he was what’s called “nashke” in Albanian (or sometimes “podgoriçani”, because most of the nashke people migrated to Albania from Podgorica). Earlier in his life the government asked him to change his last name to remove the ić and sound more Albanian, so when he was being considered for the ambassador role they initially didn’t realize he had Yugoslav roots, but once they found out they decided to avoid giving him the role because they were afraid of the possibility he’d like Ljubljana too much and decide to permanently move there (back then it was illegal for Albanians to emigrate). So I’m kind of curious if Slovenian čefurji people and Albanian nashke people are similar.
Markomannia@reddit
Some Slovenians really hate other South Slavs (and Albanians) and are dying to be perceived as Westerners or Central Europeans and like to think of themselves as Slavic speaking Austrians or Southern Czechs. They'd call people "čefurji" and "šiptarji" etc. The world "čefurji" comes from older derogative term for Jews, but there's been so little Jews in Slovenia after WW2 that the term for them is not really needed any more. You'd figuer out who helped to get ridd of them.
The problemme in this heaven is that Austrians see Slovenians as poore barbaric Yugo-cockrotches and are not gonna accept them as equal in this century (if ever).
Smart Slovenians understand that the only region where they are percived as successfull and are massively treated with respect and dignity - or even known to exist as nation - is ex-YU, and hence they'd close an eye and line up with Balkans, even if it's clear to everyone that Slovenia and Macedonia are two different worlds.
GroundZeroMstrNDR@reddit
I don't know man most austrians I know (apart from right wing carinthians that hate and fear slavs in general) tend to explicitly exclude Slovenians form the ex yugo stereotypes. There is still some prejudice and arrogance against them but they have more or less the same image as czech people
Markomannia@reddit
Yeah, the thing can be that I mostly had contact with Carinthians and South Styrians 😆 And Vienna, but Vienna is world for itself anyway.
GroundZeroMstrNDR@reddit
Yeah then I get where this comes from. Those people in southern carinthia and styria don't do this out of western arrogance however but out of deeply nationalistic and historical revisionistic views. If you ask such a person why they think that way it gets crazy very fast, they will tell you some esoteric potpourri about revenge for things in WW2, some pseudohistorical facts and feelings and that everything north of the Sava riverbank is actually rightfully ours and simultaneously that the slovenian minority in Austria should be removed. Not everyone is like that but the resentments boil down to deep nationalistic hatred. I'm ashamed of those people
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
This text reflects a common view among some Balkan people, especially Serbs, toward Slovenians: they often resent Slovenia for having its own distinct culture, history and relatively higher economic development.
However the reality is that Slovenians generally do not hate other South Slavs or Albanians. What Slovenians do object to is the lack of respect shown by some Balkan immigrants who fail to integrate, particularly by not learning Slovenian and continuing to use their own languages even after many years. Such behavior would be unimaginable in countries like Austria or Germany, though Slovenians’ own tolerance contributes to the situation.
Slovenians do absolutely not see themselves as “Slavic-speaking Austrians” or “Southern Czechs” even though culturally and genetically we are closer to them than to Serbians. Some people from the Balkans especially from Ex-Yugoslavia have historically used the derogatory term “konjušarji” to label Slovenians as subservient to Austria.
Objectively is Slovenia is perceived as successful not just relative to the Balkans but in Europe overall: it is the richest Slavic country with one of the highest HDIs on the continent.
As for your take on how Austrians see Slovenians, I won’t take it at face value as it seems colored by your personal bias or perhaps some unresolved anger issues.
StrudlEnjoyer@reddit
What a dumb statement that's completely out of touch with reality. There's always people in every nation that hate people based on their ethnicity. I have not had bad experiences with Austrians, though I am also not someone who immigrated to a foreign country and refuse to respect local culture, in which case the hate is deserved. In fact Slovenes have a lot more hate thrown their way by Balkaners, both by immigrants at home and in online discussions like this one.
Markomannia@reddit
I have not had bad experiences with Slovenians or Austrians or Albanians in real life either, on the contrary; but that does not proove anything. I mean, it only prooves that I am good at choosing my own company.
StrudlEnjoyer@reddit
So what were you trying to say before?
AmadisHali@reddit
I’m curious then why they even ever joined Yugoslavia in the first place
StrudlEnjoyer@reddit
When the Habsburg monarchy fell apart at the end of WW1, we had no protection from the advancing armies of the victorious sides, who were looking to take as much territory as possible from the losing side. We had to make a deal with the devil to join Serbia to form Yugoslavia to stop Italians' advance, who were the bigger evil, especially after they turned to fascism. An independent Slovenia was simply not realistic at the time.
Smrekovasmola@reddit
Pretty much sums it up
Smrekovasmola@reddit
Interesting story of your grandfather.
No surnames with ić are not native to Slovenia. We dont have ć in our alphabet. The same with đ or x, y etc. We have no surnames like that.
There are 2-3 villages in Bela krajina that have serbian majority since the ages of ottoman empire they were refugees here. But that is like 500 people maybe.
Everybody else with ić is a migrant here.
Regarding their attachment to the original ethnic origin you are welcome to come see any football match in Slovenia where Slovenia is playing, bosnia or serbia.
Majority of them will root for their ancestors homeland.
A good example of this is our second nba star Zoran Dragić. He played for Slovenian national team, but he proudly says he is Serbian. Even though his mother is Slovene.
Not long time ago some bosnian kid who is a generational talent in football choose bosnian national team over slovenian.
So the connection with their ancestors is very strong.
Doncic is like half half. If you check his favourite songs pretty much 95 percent of them is balkan songs. I think there is a tape of him being slightly drunk and singing samo patriotic kosovo serbian song with boban marjanović.
Now one thing to consider is the slovenia is a very leftist country so any sort of ethnic hatred is very quickly judged by everyone. So openly you will very rarely hear Slovenians say anything bad towards čefurji.
Privately its a different story tough. Especially among ethnically pure Slovenian families.
We feel we are being balkanized at extreme rates. Like if someone hasnt been in Ljubljana in 30 years it feels like a different country.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I completely agree with you.
AmadisHali@reddit
I see, based on this then I find it pretty surprising that Slovenia agreed to become part of Yugoslavia back in the day
Smrekovasmola@reddit
Times were different back then. We joined yugoslavia in 1918.
I will talk from Slovene perspective. Will post when i am home. Currently at work
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
His last name is literally Dončić. There is no letter ć in Slovenian alphabet. His father is Serbian.
Austerlitz2310@reddit
As a half Slovenian, we are more Balkan than whatever the other option is. But more developed still.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
You are half Serbian so I imagine your experience is different from someone who is fully Slovenian.
Austerlitz2310@reddit
True, but my fully Slovenian relatives also say they are Balkan. So it depends on the individual as well. The only person who doesn't agree is my young cousin. Must be generational; or they're teaching new things in school.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
None Slovenian would say that we're "Balkan" because we're not.
Austerlitz2310@reddit
Alright buddy.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
I don't know that because I'm not a Balkaner. My country is not Balkan, sorry.
Austerlitz2310@reddit
Playing the victim 🤣 No one acused you of anything.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
Sorry balkaner
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
It seems that in the Balkans there’s a tendency to view anything outside the region as somehow superior. So if someone doesn’t feel connected to the region it’s often taken as an insult.
Austerlitz2310@reddit
Indeed. It's a case of "Don't group me in with those guys". As if the world would end tomorrow if you did.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I think you didn’t get it. I am talking about Balkan people not Slovenians.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I can imagine that many Slovenians (especially older generations) tend to associate the Balkans with Yugoslavia, often using the two almost interchangeably. Many also seem to think that our history begins and ends with Yugoslavia.
kikiriki_miki@reddit
Really, at 9:00 PM in the empty Slovenian town you realize how there is no "Balkan soul" in there.
Should i mention the total lack of hospitality in the people ?
How many times have you been invited for dinner in Slovenia and how many in Serbia ?
crivycouriac@reddit
Nowadays probably yes.
We have some of the Balkans’ attributes of backwardness, most notably the high percentage of rural populations and all that comes with it.
And while Slovenia’s vibe largely does not fit into the Balkans, it doesn’t fit into the so-called Central Europe either. There’s hardly any intercultural ties to any of the countries north of us and in some cases, they are not even aware of us.
Even after the collapse of Yugoslavia, most of our immigrants come from that region, eventhough only our “fellow Central European” Poles could’ve entirely filled that gap.
FreedomMan47@reddit
Why is having a rural population "backwards". Far better than living on top of each other in cities like rats. Slovenia is awesom and I'm not even from there.
crivycouriac@reddit
Empirical evidence from pretty much all over the world suggests that urbanization is better than not
Including the Balkans
LXXXVI@reddit
Considering it takes longer to get from Toronto to Toronto than from Murska Sobota to Koper, I'd say we might as well count Slovenia as being just one metropolis with a fuckton of parks.
crivycouriac@reddit
Toronto is by every measure far smaller than Slovenia, even if you count its entire metropolitan area
LXXXVI@reddit
And yet it still quite often takes longer to get from Toronto to Toronto than from MS to KP.
There's a reason why Canadians measure distance in hours and not kilometers. It's not just because they're reverse Star Wars fans.
crivycouriac@reddit
It takes longer to get from Murska Sobota to Koper than from Barcelona to Vigo too
LXXXVI@reddit
Daj pridi enkrat v Toronto, pa te peljem v normalnem prometu od enega konca aglomeracije do drugega, pa boš štopal. Potem pa še v konici.
FreedomMan47@reddit
Better in which way? Economically, sure. Health, mental health, freedom. Nope
crivycouriac@reddit
Generally speaking, rural populations are on average much more primitive too. I hope I don’t have to give real life examples.
Sfacm@reddit
Yes country mice are way cuter then rats
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
We are still Central Europe and we will always be. We were never Balkan! Deal with it. There are more and many immigrants from Balkan countries in Austria, Switzerland and Germany, so those 3 countries are Balkan then?
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
That’s completely untrue. Slovenia has culturally way more in common with Central Europe than Balkan.
OkWorld4800@reddit
Like what for example?
Teghendion@reddit
Like everything. Listen Slovenian traditional music, it sounds nothing like Balkan.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Like food, music, folk dances, folk costumes, traditions and festivals, architecture and town culture…
Educational_Dream837@reddit
Balkan according to Count Metternich starts at the road south of Vienna.
MatchaAzra@reddit
For me Slovenians are not Balkan. Bosnian is my native language and I have a really hard time unterstanding them, because the pronounce things so different than the rest of us. Also i feel like they are lacking the trauma and the cultural mix and chaos that the rest of the balkans have. Culutrally they are more closely related to Austria, Czech, Slovakia or Poland in my opinion. But it is also a sad position, nobody wants them to be part of them, haha. I had a slovenian friend ask me how to make sarma and baklava and I was seriously confused because I thought they maybe learned it during Yugoslavia but apparently not. Had a few inicidents that led me to belief that slovenians are very different than the rest of us Ex-Yu States. Their mentality is also very austrian/german in my experience and they offen do not understand inside jokes about the Balkans and so on. I do not care to exclude from something but it just not the same vibe for me as with other Ex-Yu people. In my experience they are also do not have the same hospitality that the other countries have.
Ok_Chip_5921@reddit
I concur with many things you said, but I am wondering what kind of Slovenians don‘t know how to cook sarma at home. In my region (rural North with basically no immigrants) it‘s really integrated into our local cuisine at this point. We traditionally eat sarma at the 1st and 2nd January. So your experience with your Slovenian friend seems bizarre to me. On another note, Baklava is Levantine and not Balkanian at all. It‘s like saying Pizza or Kebab are German, just because it‘s popular there.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I’m Slovenian and have never had sarma in my life. My grandmother never made it, my mother never made it, and I don’t know any of my friends who grew up eating it at home. And I’m from the capital.
Ok_Chip_5921@reddit
Mate every single one of your posts is insisting on Slovenia being 0.0000% Balkans, not sure if you are objective here. Let’s start a sarma poll in the Slovenian sub, pretty sure it‘s popular in other regions as well.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Mate I’m speaking based on objective facts not personal experience. You’re free to argue that Slovenia is Balkan but you’d need solid evidence for that. As a Slovenian I don’t see Slovenia as Balkan, I don’t see my culture as Balkan and I don’t identify as Balkan…and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I perceive the Balkans as a region that was partially or fully under Ottoman rule, which is where the Turkish influence comes from. Balkan is a Turkish word after all. You’re free to feel differently of course.
A sarma poll actually sounds fun! Btw you can find similar dishes in Hungary, Poland and elsewhe but that doesn’t automatically make them Balkan right?
Sarma has no historical roots in Slovenia, it first appeared here with Yugoslav immigrants. I was being honest I’ve never had it at home and it was never part of our family tradition. Maybe it depends on whether a family leans more pro-Yugoslavia or not, who knows.
MatchaAzra@reddit
Pls let me know how the poll went! I would like to know!
StrudlEnjoyer@reddit
Honestly I'm not even sure what sarma is. Never had it. From Štajerska.
MatchaAzra@reddit
Well, the same applies to Sarma. It's clearly levantine cuisine and was historical brought to us during the ottoman empire, like many other dishes. Most of the dishes I grew up eating you can find in Turkey, and so on as well. Although Baklava does not originate from Bosnia for me it is a big part of the culture. I ate it my whole life and my family has been making it for many generations for special occasions. But by that argument it also applies to Pita and Burek, which is one of the most eaten things but also clearly brought to us during the ottoman empire. And about the friend: She told me that they have something similar, but they do not use fermented cabbage. She also called it cabbage rolls instead of sarma. It is just made differently from what she told me and also in my family it differs what is considered sarma. For example for me the Sarma with fermented cabbage is the winter sarma. Then there is also Japrak Sarma which is with Raštika in Spring for us and then in the warmer months wine leaves. And than there is the whole mulitverse of dolmas as well, haha. So maybe she was interested in that part, I will ask her next time I see her.
GlitteringLocality@reddit
It is 50/50. Slovenia sits at a crossroads with some Balkan influence, but also strong Central European (Germanic/Austrian) and Slavic identity. Not everyone here identifies as Balkan.
Darrenarren812@reddit
As an outsider who is neither Balkan nor central european, I'd say Slovenia definitely felt more Balkan to me. Culturally it felt totally Balkan. I mean, aside from the green scenary and mountains, what does slovenia have in common with Austria, for example?
StrudlEnjoyer@reddit
I'm curious why you think that way and which places you've visited.
Darrenarren812@reddit
I only visited Ljubljana so I haven't experienced the country completely, but I have travelled throughout Austria and many things struck me as different. Linguisically it is very different of course. Architecturally I know Slovenia is very diverse, but Ljubljana outside of the old town felt very much post-communist in its' buildings (which it obviously is), the people I would say look closer to serbians and croatians than to Austrians (a generalisation I know) .. but also smaller things like the love Slovenians have for basketball, I have never walked into a bar in a german speaking country and seen wall-to-wall basketball all over the screens! The reliance on buses over other modes of public transport would be another thing.
GroundZeroMstrNDR@reddit
Which parts of Austria have you been to? Because I get your sentiment when you compare Tyrol, Vorarlberg and maybe Salzburg but some random Village or town in austrian Steiermark looks pretty identical to some random village or town in slovenian Štajerska
Darrenarren812@reddit
Salzburg, Linz, Vienna, Graz ... but I take your point, I haven't really experienced small town Austria (or Slovenia).
Butterfly_of_chaos@reddit
When I cross the mountains from Carinthia to Slovenia the houses and landscape basically look the same on each side.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Central Europe is not made up only of Germanic countries. In fact most countries in the region are Slavic.You can also see similar so called “communist architecture” across many Central European countries. Eg Slovakia has far more of these buildings than Slovenia.
Genetically are Slovenians closer to people from Austria than to those from Serbia (a pattern consistently shown in population DNA studies).
And basketball is not a Balkan invention. It is popular across many European countries not just in Slovenia or the Balkans.
StrudlEnjoyer@reddit
Ah, I see now. Ljubljana has a very high percentage of immigrants. When I lived there, I felt like I'm in a foreign country. In public spaces, you hear Serbocroatian more often than Slovene. Though it's true that we all love basketball, it is especially popular among the Balkan immigrants and most of our national team players have a foreign background. And commie blocks are in many places all over the country, and Ljubljana is a great example of it. Though they are slowly getting renovated nowadays so they don't look as depressing. And our public transport sucks, though the buses themselves aren't a problem, Ljubljana is probably not big enough to justify a metro.
AmelKralj@reddit
Austria has a lot of Balkan influence as well due to Slovenes and Croats
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Austria does not have Balkan influence because of Slovenia but due to high numbers of Balkan immigrants. Same goes for Slovenia.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I seriously doubt it felt “totally Balkan”.
To answer your question about what Slovenia has in common with Austria: culture, history, and even genetic heritage.
A better question might be what Slovenia actually has in common with the Balkans, aside from its period in Yugoslavia.
GroundZeroMstrNDR@reddit
Architecture, food, traditional music, folk clothing is very similar
TheTrueKekec@reddit
Pizza-burek sums it up nicely 😀
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Invented by an Albanian? So Germany is Middle East then?
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
How is 50/50? I see Croatia as 50/50 as north is more Central but I fail to see how that applies to Slovenia
mertseger67@reddit
Slovenian mentality is stil balkan
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
What does that even mean?
mertseger67@reddit
How not to do something and still benefit.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
So you’re saying that “Balkan mentality” means cheating, lying, stealing, fraud, corruption, bribery, scamming, manipulation, and taking advantage of others?
mertseger67@reddit
something like that
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Interesting that you view Balkan and even your own people so negatively.
ben_blue@reddit
Let's first define what is Balkan. First mention of the Balkan was from Filippo Buonaccorsi, Per Filippo Buonaccorsi (Callimachus), "Balkan" referred specifically to the Haemus Mountains (the Balkan mountain range in modern-day Bulgaria). In a 1490 letter to Pope Innocent VIII, the Italian humanist identified it as a mountain range, noting it was called Balchanum by the local population..n 1808,
In 1808, August Zeune introduced the term "Balkan Peninsula" (Balkanhalbinsel) to describe the entire landmass in Southeast Europe bounded by the Adriatic, Ionian, Aegean, and Black Seas. In his 1808 work Gea: Versuch einer wissenschaftlichen Erdbeschreibung, the area Zeune classified as the Balkan Peninsula generally included: Modern-day Bulgaria , Greece , Albania , and North Macedonia . Territories of the Ottoman Empire in Europe as they stood at that time.
For much of the 19th century, the term "Balkans" was used as a synonym for "European Turkey" or Rumelia(territories under Ottoman rule). During this time, Croatia (then part of the Austrian Empire) was often excluded from the term, as it was considered part of the "Latin West" or Central Europe.
So Slovenia is NOT Balkan. Croatia is NOT Balkan. Serbia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Greeece, Albania and North Macedonia is Balkan.
Jovan Cvijić : A Serbian geographer in the early 20th century who heavily promoted the term "Balkan" to define a shared identity for all South Slavs, including Croats, to support the creation of a unified state. He included Croatia and Slovenia as Balkan.
I would say both Slovenia and Croatia are NOT Balkan!
ben_blue@reddit
I noticed this answere
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
You would say that Dalmatia is where exactly? Because if not in Balkan then also Montenegro and maybe Bosnia aren’t Balkan either?
antisa1003@reddit
Dalmatia is South Europe. The Dalmatian hinterland could be classified as Balkan.
TemporaryAd2873@reddit
What about Makarska? Is Makarska Balkan?
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
So by this logic also Bosnia, Albania and Montenegro are not fully Balkan.
antisa1003@reddit
They are fully Balkan. Ottoman influence. Dalmatian was under Italian influence.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I am speaking only in a geographical sense.
Also Montenegro was not part of the Ottoman Empire until the late 15th century and its mountainous interior remained largely autonomous. Its Adriatic coast was ruled by the Republic of Venice, while the Dalmatian hinterland and some inland Croatian regions were under Ottoman control.
antisa1003@reddit
Then, we do not have anything to talk about. Geographically speaking, Balkan peninsula doesn't exist. Geographical experts are denying the existence of the "Balkan" peninsula as it doesn't have the traditional markers for it to be called a peninsula.
Montenegro was influenced by the Ottomans. They had "autonomy". While I agree there are parts which had a atrong Italian influence, but those parts were small. So, largely (not fully as I said before), Montenegro is Balkan.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Geographically, you’re right that the Balkan peninsula isn’t an actual peninsula but the term is still useful. Culturally and historically, Dalmatia, Montenegro and Bosnia are very similar. Montenegro’s interior was largely autonomous, while the Dalmatian hinterland and parts of inland Croatia were under Ottoman control. So calling Dalmatia part of Southern Europe but Montenegro part of the Balkans is not geographically wrong, but also makes sense historically and culturally.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
😂😂😂
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
No. Culturally it isn’t. Mentality wise it isn’t. Quality of life wise it isn’t. Cuisine wise too.
About as Balkan as Slovakia and Hungary are (which is not 0%), Slovenia is just a bit more Balkan.
The only reason why Slovenia gets lumped into the Balkans is because of the 70 years it spent as part of Yugoslavia, where it did indeed receive culturally “Balkan” influence, mainly from Serbia, southern Croatia, and to a lesser extent Bosnia and Herzegovina.
But this cultural influence is well known amongst Slovenes to be foreign. Things like čevapi and burek exist and are made in Slovenia, but they are known to not be part of Slovenian cuisine.
Upper-Profile-5814@reddit
Exactly this!
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Quality of life wise? I didn’t know you can go in and out of regions by economic standards? So if Turkey goes super rich it becomes Western Europe? If Ireland goes super poor, it joins the Caucuses?
theystolemyusername@reddit
Thank you. I hate when people tie regional identity to struggle. I've recently debated with a Latino who claimed that Latino identity is about "being discriminated against". Huh? And here I thought it's about speaking a Romance language in the Americas.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Turkey isn’t super rich and Ireland isn’t super poor for a reason
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Ireland was dirt poor for much of its existence, all the way through joining the EU
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
It did what Bulgaria and Romania couldn’t
broadripplefireman@reddit
Romania’s GDP increased by like 800% compared to the early 2000s, what more do you want lol
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Portugal is a perpetual failure despite being in the EU for 5 decades, Poland caught up with it despite just 2 decades after decades of communist rule
tihivrabac@reddit
Then half of croatia isn't balkan, in rijeka area there's a local polka dance called potresujka, and even local music is inspired by polka
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Yes Northern Croatia is also not Balkan.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Yup. You got it spot on.
kikiriki_miki@reddit
Same as Vojvodina and Transilvanya. But in these 2, the balkanization* is more visible.
DimensionSafe2243@reddit
Hungary is more balkan (culturally) than Slovenia. I am pretty sure you say otherwise only because of the language.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
Yes geographically one small part is on the Balkan peninsula. Geographic border of the Balkan peninsula.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
This is geographically inaccurate, as the northern border is actually defined by the Kupa, Sava and Danube rivers. This map appears to be based on no recognized definition at all.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
You're wrong dude. This map is correct. And it's not the only one.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Which geographical definition is this map based on? According to it, where is the northern border?
I’m not sure if you’re aware but Istria is its own peninsula, geographically separate from the Balkan Peninsula.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
Istrian peninsula is part of the Balkan peninsula. As much as I know. Still the Slovenia's part is correct, probably still to much of Slovenian land is on the Balkan peninsula, but ok. We're not Balkan anyway.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Well geographically speaking the Istrian Peninsula is considered its own peninsula not strictly part of the Balkan Peninsula.
vasjpan002@reddit
Heavily Austrianised
chunek@reddit
Nah.. it's more of the opposite, influenced during Yugoslavia, somewhat balkanized, etc.
With Austria, the connection happened before there was an Austria or Slovenia, back when it was all still under Bavaria, in the Carolingian times.. Then, in the 19th century, we started to identify as a distinct, slavic nation, and eventually left Austria in 1918 after we lost ww1.
MyrmBoth_io@reddit
Croatia and Bosnia were in Austria-Hungary too before joining Yugoslavia
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Both of them were fully or partly under Ottomans.
Mysterious_Win_9529@reddit
If they say ”jebiga”, they’re balkan
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
So Albania is not Balkan?
Aulawabe@reddit
As a Serb I would say no. Austrians will probably say Yes.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Why would Austrian say yes? Because it is Slavic?
Melodic_Interview210@reddit
Balkan starts with Vienna
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
And Middle East with Serbia.
onlydothis@reddit
Culturally I can't say Slovenia is entirely central European/Austro-Hungarian or Balkan. I think every culture/region/state has its own character. 😂
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
How is Slovenia culturally possibly Balkan?
Educational_Term_463@reddit
No, we are not
TormentedShadow2107@reddit
The Balkan proclaming Slovenians? 👍👍👍
The Central Europe proclaming Slovenians?
Toxic Soyboys.
They are a part of Balkan no matter what they say.. but their insecurities eat out at them and the superiority complex also.
Never had any good experience with Slovenians that claim themselves to be from the central Europe region.
Balkan ones? Very nice warm and humble people.. hardworking also.
KODO_666@reddit
no. Maybe because of all migrants from south but go to countryside and its more central.
cybermancer4999@reddit
Nowadays in terms of culture we are much more balkan than we used to be, kids mostly listen to balkan rap in Serbian instead of the few slovene rappers that exist and even those slovene rappers are becoming more balkan in terms of their haircuts and personalities. So they adapt the balkan characteristics and slang of their favorite rappers.
Also the population is much more mixed than when we left Yugoslavia in 1991, and a lot of people have at least one parent from like Serbia/Croatia/Albania. Or they just speak Serbian really well cause they listen to balkan rap. There are also a ton of immigrants from the balkans, in particular in recent years from Albania, so they bring their culture with them.
Geographically, we are closer to central europe which is why Slovenia is a transit hub for human traffickers. It is a big deal politically that some people feel as though the Slovene cultural identity is dying out and so a lot of people on the right insist on speaking Slovene only. So for many of the more conservative people and politicians, they do not like Slovenia to be labeled as Balkan since they think Balkan = degeneracy, poverty, and Slovene cultural degradation, and associate more with Central Europe.
Personally, I think we are a mix of both at this point and the balkanification process has been quite profound in the last 20 years as more people migrate from Serbia and other Balkan countries to study and work in Slovenia.
chbb@reddit
From my Balkan point of view, Slovenia is exactly like Austria. Driving through Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia, you feel like you are all in same country. Crossing into Slovenia is like going into another dimension.
However, they are a bit more approachable than Austrians, and they do have a lot of Balkaners among them (see Luka Dončiċ 🙂)
Obladamelanura@reddit
Not really. Look at slovenian traditional foods and music. Germanic sausages and alpine acordion music.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
Map of Central Europe which Slovenia is part of.
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
Political/state borders of the Balkans
SmartFlyNR1@reddit
Nope it's not. Slovenia is Central Europe, end of story. Geographically we're also Central Europe. Culturally, historically, ethnically and geographically we're Central Europe. Nothing to do with Balkan at all. Also in schools we were taught that Slovenia is a Central European country.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Slovenia often gets called Balkan because it was part of Yugoslavia, but that’s a bit misleading. Historically was Slovenia part of Central European powers like the Austro-Hungarian Empire for over a thousand years and only 69 years in Yugoslavia. So culturally and historically is Slovenia much closer to Central Europe.
Yugoslavia itself could be considered both Central European and Balkan but since most of its countries are Balkan people usually just associate it with the Balkans. Sure, some Balkan influences came to Slovenia during Yugoslav times (certain dishes, music, slang) but they remain very distinct from traditional Slovenian culture. Otherwise you could call Germany part of the Middle East just because of some Turkish influences.
So yes geographically Slovenia is NEAR the Balkans, politically it was part of Yugoslavia but culturally and historically it has always been Central European. I’m sure that most Slovenians would agree with me.
FreedomMan47@reddit
If you go by that historical logic Croatia should be Central Europe too. It's Balkan.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I would say it’s actually a bit more complicated than that. It’s true that parts of Croatia were also historically tied to Central European political structures like the Habsburg Monarchy and later the Austro-Hungarian Empire. At the same time were other regions of Croatia historically under the Ottoman Empire or strongly connected to the Adriatic world.
Because of that is Croatia often described as a country at the crossroads of Central Europe, the Balkans and the Mediterranean. Slovenia’s historical and cultural development was more consistently tied to Central Europe which is why it makes more sense to place it there.
blodskaal@reddit
https://youtu.be/r_5Slnkzekc?si=CRFOE28LrBmFERHx
Slavoj Zizek explains it best
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
This is a satire btw. Don’t take it too seismic
blodskaal@reddit
/swoosh
HorrorWarning6661@reddit
Mandatory river video https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo?
Double_Couple_988@reddit
Not really. Balkan is a diagnosis.
medved76@reddit
Slovenia is Austria
CmdrJemison@reddit
Central Europe is a myth.
pijem_vino_in_pivo@reddit
You have Balkan geographical and mental border condition. For both the Slovenia is Balkan country. The Balkan mental border is up to somewhere near to Munich railway main station.
hero_in_@reddit
Slovenia being Balkan according to your understanding but Bulgaria and Albania not is way off
QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit
Geographical Balkans are the dark shade of green and the green that covers Greece and far part of Romania, not sure why they picked 2 different colors, but that's Wikipedia for you
The rest, the vomit sort of green is supposed 'cultural reach of Balkan', although I am not sure if I would really place whole of Turkey, Slovenia or Moldovia (?!) as such
In any case, everything north of Danube, Sava and Kupa rivers is Central Europe, while south of them is South Europe. For some reason, internet keeps calling Balkans "Eastern Europe", even though there is clear geographical difference
Spain and Portugal, Italy and Balkans are South Europe, geographically, or to be precise, Iberian, Italian, and Balkan peninsulas, including Malta.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Alps are geographically Balkan? You sure about that? What definition is this map based on?
Fluid_Intention_875@reddit
Dinaric Alps are Alps.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
I am talking about THE Alps.
Current-Progress8930@reddit
There are two colors because one defines Balkan with political borders while other with physical geographical features - rivers (Sava, Danube).
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
How exactly are Alps in Balkan?
Current-Progress8930@reddit
I don't know, just explaining the map based on what I know. For me, regionalization of balkan based on rivers and mountains is absurd since it is a political term.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
There are many inaccurate maps out there. This one is definitely one of them.
Current-Progress8930@reddit
Yep, it is. And because of this, balkan can never be defined as a peninsula.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
It’s definitely not a peninsula in any real sense. But every time I see a map that places the Alps in the Balkan region, it makes me wonder why people with no geographical understanding are the ones making maps.
Substratas@reddit
Why is Greece a different shade of green? 😂 Did John Delopoulos make this map?
fk_censors@reddit
Moldova is pretty culturally Balkan, despite the Soviets trying to convert it into a death cult shit hole like the rest of commie land. The traditional clothing, music, dances, and food are very Balkan, with some recent Soviet influences on the food and pop music. But the rural population is still clinging to the traditional music which uses Balkan (and Ottoman) motifs. A very common last name is Cioban/Ceban/Ciobanu which is as Balkan as it gets (it means traveling shepherd or just shepherd).
Current-Progress8930@reddit
mala_neveshta@reddit
Adept-One-4632@reddit
The country geographically balkan but is people are too efiminate to be balkaners.
Beneficial-Code8026@reddit
You can get Balkan feeling places and Central feeling places anywhere. Slovenia is the most blended country where it has elements of southern, Eastern and central Europe all in one.
Teghendion@reddit
A large part of Slovenia is in the Alps, since when are the Alps... Balkan?
Organic_Contract_172@reddit
Do you think Greece is Western European? If yes, then Slovenia is Balkan
ThaKanwXarakiri@reddit
It's settled then, Slovenia is Balkan as fuck
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
In that case is Greece Middle Eastern as fuck
Substratas@reddit
zzidzz@reddit
It really depends what is your definition of Balkan. The answer can be yes or no. The most probable answer: Slovenia is (at) the border of Balkans and therefore there is influence of it, at least culturally.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Slovenian culture is not Balkan tho.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
It's Balkan.
Not only Balkan, though, but still Balkan.
Diligent_Breath_643@reddit
The lines are being blurred now, you got every nation living in Balkans now, Slovenia case is like this geographically not. Cold? way of life. Lots of Balkan people living there. Now who is a Balkan? Person it's someone who is loud and wears a Vest, very welcoming to everyone, to drink Rakija with Meze, A lot of it never straight alcohol drinking always with something else, some meat olives picked tomatoes homemade cheese onions cut ,,,in 4 pieces,,, garlic, and possibly going at it all night
Turpentine_Tree@reddit
Good explanation
theheisenbergirl@reddit
they’re also latinos
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
So are you English or not? People decide firnthemselves what they are. Your question is pointless.
brickne3@reddit
I call them Austria-Lite.
Big-Waltz5204@reddit
Geographically speaking, a small part of Slovenia is technically on Balkan peninsula which the borders of it are disputed. Culturally no, it's part of central Europe and has more in common with Austria. But due to language being similar to Serbocroatian and having been in Yugoslavia it is grouped with Balkan countries often. There is also decent amount of immigrant from former Yugoslav countries living in Slovenia and they bring their culture and habits to Slovenia so it's not very clear cut. Slovenes themselves are not Balkan like people but you will still find ćevapi and burek places and hear teens blasting Balkan music in some places. The way I would describe it is that Slovenia is on the periphery, technically no but the wind will still bring some hints of it.
GraemeMark@reddit
Nobody knows.