Why are companies pushing for return to office on roles that don't need it?

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

The problem is that everyone likes to believe WFH is more productive. However there's a significant proportion of people who aren't. And they are never going to admit to that on Reddit. I worked in HR and saw just how bad it was. I know this will get marked down, but it's true.

Also you do not learn as much from colleagues when you WFH, so the workforce doesn't develop in the same way. So even those who genuinely are productive are not developing as quickly as they would by working directly alongside colleagues.

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Major-Nail@reddit

the problem is these companies over hired and they don't have enough work for people to do. From what I can tell the secret is to go into the office, do like 2 hours of work a day eat the free food and then leave. big companies are so messed up but you gotta work for them to make any real money.

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Major-Nail@reddit

then fire the people who are bad at it or force them to work in the office and let the rest of us live our lives

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tsmith070707@reddit

The leaders are the problem. If they can’t learn to engage wfh employees ie teams or other electronic outlets, they need to be trained. If they can’t use new tech to engage their teams what Makes you think they are any more effective engaging in person. Sounds to me like ineffective mgmt. Employees leave managers not companies.

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markvauxhall@reddit

Our firm found that people who worked from home 4-5 days a week performed less well and were promoted more slowly than those who were in the office 3 days a week+.

You learn a lot from collaborating, joint problem solving etc. Work gets done more quickly because you can have quick corridor/desk chats to get issues unblocked. It's harder to replicate in a remote environment.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

You can learn so much just from overhearing conversations colleagues are having. Plus they're more likely to share details of what they are working on when you are sat in the same room. You can then learn from each others experience. You might hear your colleague dealing with an unusual situation and then months later you can have something similar and you will know what to do, even though you haven't personally dealt with it before. If you're WFH you miss all those little learning experiences.

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Cunari@reddit

Most of these overheard conversations sound like gibberish and I learn more from a document

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sunmoonstars@reddit

I agree somewhat, however that also just highlights how abysmal training and mentoring can be in many roles. If there is a great remote culture and support it really shouldn’t make a difference and lockdown proved as such.

Additionally for many people it is a high price to pay to overhear conversations that may be useful. My office is 2 hours away so I spent 4 hours driving today to sit in an office working in silence. The only conversations I overheard were about golf.

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SeoulGalmegi@reddit

how abysmal training and mentoring can be in many roles. If there is a great remote culture and support it really shouldn’t make a difference and lockdown proved as such.

Are there many people who started a new role in a new industry during lockdown while WFH and got as good training and mentoring to allow them to do the job properly?

This is a genuine question rather than rhetorical.

I much prefer inperson training, but maybe I'm an outlier.

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markvauxhall@reddit

Unless it's written in your contract that it's a remote role, that's kind of on you to choose to live somewhere 2 hours from your workplace.

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glitterstateofmind@reddit

A lot of businesses in my industry took the decision to reduce their physical footprint during COVID, so many people were left without an office within a reasonably commutable distance.

It’s incredibly hypocritical of businesses to reap the financial benefits of remote work in this fashion whilst simultaneously demonising those who continue such working patterns (either of their own volition or otherwise). Either remote working works for their business or it doesn’t.

FWIW, I’m full time remote but went into the office today, really enjoyed it, but that was because I spent the entire day in face to face meetings that couldn’t have otherwise have been done virtually. That’s a very rare occurrence, though. My team is dispersed globally, so forcing me to do a 90 min journey twice a day just to sit on Teams is nonsensical.

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finesesarcasm@reddit

So true you can overhear how your work colleagues are cheating on their spouses, you won't get that type of tea from wfh I tell you that

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Kindly-Berry8620@reddit

They aren't promoted because they are more productive. There are promoted because they are more visible. Whether visibility is a necessary component of the job will depend on the job. But I very much doubt it is default required in all, other than for promotion. Humans a surface level creatures, they are primed by their surroundings and make decisions accordingly. Being seen primes management with you, therefore you are more likely to be promoted

Yes there are rules that require networking etc. But we should all be careful how logical our reasoning is and whether it's impacted by bias

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Easy_Firefighter6123@reddit

Yes people who work in head offices are promoted more quickly than if they work in small satellite offices because of visibility. We have long known this.

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Icy-Exercise-365@reddit

This!

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ThickishMoney@reddit

This is it. There was a study done on the impact of remote working on career development pre-COVID and those remote were promoted only half as often as those on site.

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Elegant_Plantain1733@reddit

They are promoted becaise they are more able to share their skills with others. Its not just a game - managaemnt means getting the best from those under you.

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Better-Row-9793@reddit

Having worked an office all my life this is usually not how things go. They got promoted because of the social side of it.

Office politics plays are far to important role in office life. If you are well known and liked, you will do better than someone who is far better at their job.

I've seen a genius stepped over and treated like shit because they were not socially popular. And seem absolute melts get all the applause and promotions just because they were better socially. and showed up for social events.

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Sopzeh@reddit

Nobody should be treated like shit. But you shouldn't promote somebody to a manager because they're good at their job. You should promote them because they will be a good manager.

Disclaimer: never seen this followed anywhere I worked but my personal philosophy

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AutomaticInitiative@reddit

This is it. The staff at our main office receive more promotions because they have senior management there that our satellite office does not have.

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markvauxhall@reddit

Yep, I'd agree it does depend on the role. For my firm does, collaboration is hugely important in many roles and we never found remote as effective.

In contrast if you're a call handler in a contact centre I'd struggle to see a good argument for you to WFO 5 days a week.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Even in a call centre you can learn a lot from simply overhearing calls colleagues are taking and discussing novel situations between calls. You just don't get that sort of learning at home.

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phatboi23@reddit

Even in a call centre you can learn a lot from simply overhearing calls colleagues

aka when you can't follow along on your own calls because there's 30 other people chatting at the same time.

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Son-Of-Sloth@reddit

Hard no from me, as someone who's worked in call centres far too long thats an equally if not more brilliant way of sharing incorrect stuff and short cuts that shouldn't be used. Also I haven't come across many calls centres where there is enough time between calls to discuss anything or listen to anyone else. The constant background noise of a call centre and the need for very little interaction makes it ideal for working from home.

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Kindly-Berry8620@reddit

I do agree.

I'd just like to clarify that I wasn't referring to collaboration. Which is an actual work activity and often done better in person. I spoke of visibility and its imoact on promotion prospects. I find it more difficult to justify visibility as a core requirement for promotion than being together to successfully collaborate. I'm a fan of measuring relevant predefined capabilities as a means of determining promotion. So I can mitigate the human bias I know sways us.

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Professional_Elk_489@reddit

Even if they are more productive they may find other people are less productive towards them WFH vs everyone next to them in the office. When I'm working in the office I basically ignore all the WFH people and we are just solving problems in person face to face constantly without them included

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360Saturn@reddit

I just don't agree that such findings are definitely not association correlation with causation.

If I could see a study that had controlled for that I might change my view but nearly every survey a workplace has ever had me do on wfh has been chock-full of leading questions and/or options that don't allow me to share my actual feelings.

For example when people are asked the question "do you prefer working in the office or hybrid" when hybrid is defined in the question to be the only option that isn't fully in the office; and then a majority of people 'preferring to work hybrid' is reported as the result as if to imply that's their preference out of office-based, fully-home-based, or a combination of the two that is called hybrid.

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markvauxhall@reddit

Anonymous survey, metric based on "On a scale of 1-10 would you recommend working here?"

People were also asked to self report how many days a week they were in the office. There was a correlation between higher scores on "recommend working here" and higher number of days in the office.

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Teh_yak@reddit

People enjoyed it more because they were in the office, or they were in the office because they enjoyed it more?

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Eternalscream0@reddit

Yup!

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Teh_yak@reddit

It was an actual question. You said the happiness correlated to time in the office. But I'm curious if other factors made people happy, then that meant they were in the office more, or of being in the office was the cause of the happiness.

Did you have other questions to figure that out?

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Eternalscream0@reddit

If you enjoy the office then you go in more often.

do you like your colleagues? did they just fail to invite you to a leaving do that you were professionally obligated to attend?
are you neurodivergent and find it easier to concentrate at home, and easier to communicate in writing when the culture is toxic and confusing?
have you discovered how useless HR is through bitter experience?

Honestly I work long hours because I need to for my own self-respect, and I’m not paid overtime.

I despise nearly all of them and prefer to interact through a technological barrier.

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360Saturn@reddit

There's also the situation of people who refused to adapt to working from home then skewing the results.

During covid I used to work with a lady who chose to work from home sitting on a bar stool with her laptop balanced on a chest of drawers because she didn't want to work in her kitchen or living room.

Naturally she responded to all surveys that she hated working from home; but that was because she wasn't doing it right!

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Jemma_2@reddit

How do you do it right?

I have a nice set up with a comfy office chair and a big desk and three screens and I still don’t like working from home. What am I doing wrong?

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360Saturn@reddit

There was a correlation between higher scores on "recommend working here" and higher number of days in the office.

If there was a pressure from the top to spend time in the office though, naturally those who preferred to work in the office would not feel under duress by such pressure if it was their existing preference so for that reason might feel more positive about their employer; while those who felt they were being pressured to work from the office against their will might logically feel more negatively about the employer as a result of exerting that pressure.

I think it's a tricky needle to thread ultimately.

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dbxp@reddit

In some of our enps surveys people said they wouldn't recommend out products to their friends because who in their right mind recommends accounting software to their friends.

Personally I struggle to say I'd recommend where I work as most of the open roles are now office based and I don't live near any of the offices.

The question is also angled towards loyalty which I think makes WFH look worse. I think people who WFH are more likely to see any similar WFH role as functionally identical, they wouldn't recommend working at any specific company.

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Spanyanagonyam@reddit

Our firm found that people who worked from home 4-5 days a week performed less well and were promoted more slowly than those who were in the office 3 days a week+

That sounds pretty self-affirming. Performance is subjective and promotions are decided by those who set the tone. Personally I've seen much better performance from people who don't spend 2 hours commuting to try to achieve their work in a busy space full of people talking over them. Depends on the role, probably.

But the minute your company suggests that physical presence is required then of course the tone will be set that people who promote that are more worthy.

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SeoulGalmegi@reddit

Performance is subjective

So how the hell is everybody able to claim WFH is more productive, then?

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Queen_of_London@reddit

In many jobs the main tasks are quantifiable. It is very easy for my employer to tell if I'm completing the work they've set me in the time they've allowed, or even completing more work than that, and for me (and most people in my specific role) that's easier to do at home.

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Spanyanagonyam@reddit

I think realistically people can only speak for themselves on an anecdotal level for this, or possibly their immediate team or company at most.

For most people just the lack of a daily commute gives then an evident couple of hours back in their day, But also I think lack of distraction is a big thing for people, certainly is for me.

But ultimately whether you're more productive in an office or at home will massively depend on the specifics of the individual, their role, their colleagues, their company and various personal circumstances too.

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CaffeinatedT@reddit

The people who are completely disengaged and turning up to punch in are also going to be the ones who stay home 5 days a week if given the option so that makes sense to me.

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januarynights@reddit

But is that because of working from home or because of something else? My workplace now only lets people work from home all the time if they have an adjustment for a disability or something like that. As someone with chronic illnesses I'm too bloody tired to want to get promoted, perfectly happy working from home and staying at the level I'm at. Could it be something like that causing the lack of promotion for WFH people?

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Whatiii@reddit

Employee engagement / NPS scores also seemed (in our case) to correlate with higher in office attendance.

Of course they do. Someone who dislikes the company, office culture, will not want to engage, and will want to be in the office less often than someone who does. I know for me its office stuff that led me to want to WFH more, that correlates with less engagement/NPS score from me. Would you recommend people work at a place who's office you are avoiding? If it wasn't for that I would be in the office more. This is very much a correlation and causation.

Promotions etc all fit the same, someone who is less engaged with company/culture will get promoted less

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jeminar@reddit

I was quite senior in a fully remote company once. I made it an unwritten rule that every (Skype) meeting started with a chat, and we'd always "waste" 5 minutes.

Mitigated nearly all of it.

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dbxp@reddit

That's true for the big offices where there's lots of senior staff around to bounce ideas off of. In satellite offices the other roles who you could learn from or collaborate with often aren't there

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bourton-north@reddit

It’s so refreshing to see people actually acknowledge what many people see on this subject. My business is hybrid - we can see exactly what happens when people are fully wfh, it did not work well.

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trypnosis@reddit

Same experience across multiple companies and teams. While one or two teams may be more productive working from home. It was mainly due to the difficulty of slacking of.

Where as most teams lost productivity massively working from home.

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dazedan_confused@reddit

What's your metric for employee performance?

Also, how do you know it was because of work quality and not, say, stereotyping people who WFH or, say, visibility?

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matomo23@reddit

Oh for sure you get promoted less. How can your face fit if no one sees your face?

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markvauxhall@reddit

I'd contend my firm has extremely objective promotion rounds - based on historic performance.

It's not about "who does Bob think would be a good person to promote based on who he's chatted to at the coffee machine?"

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AdPuzzled3517@reddit

There’s been studies on WFH being unproductive spanning back 15+ years. There reality is when you are home, you simply don’t do as much.

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jamieperkins9999@reddit

Im belive on average WFH is not as good as office based for varies reasons, but for a few people WFH is much better and they are more productive. My partner is one of these few people, and so I must advocate for WFH as I am biased and we need her to WFH, despite believing office based is better on average.

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quiet_control909@reddit

Not going to downvote you or anything, but genuinely, how are you measuring productivity?

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Staff who have specific reports to complete within a specific time and failing to do so, not even getting close in many cases. When compared to others who get the same task done in a fraction of the time. Also, contributions to processing emails from the shared inbox. This is the next task after the set reports, to work through the inbox. It's very easy to monitor who is replying to emails and seeing the disparity in quantity dealt with. Plus the poor performers having no particular reason to explain why they are apparently unable to complete work within a reasonable timeframe. The huge tell is that when they have office days those performance issues seem to magically vanish.

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quiet_control909@reddit

That seems fair enough, especially when the work is so regimented. Thank you.

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exhausted-pangolin@reddit

It's about productivity between team members for me. As a manager I see one employee working flat out all day and others who disappear for hours at a time, hide behind sending slack messages on their phone so they can pretend they're working etc. or leave consistently 45 mins before they have worked their full flexitime hours etc.

When you're actively looking, even remotely, you can spot exactly what people are doing and when and see the massive gaps in their output. But they lie every day in standup about "oh this took ages" or similar.

Honestly it's galling but about 80% of people, peers or employees, I've worked with are taking the piss with WFH.

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explax@reddit

Also I think some people consider their own productivity differently from their company too. Some people are suddenly more productive at the parts of the job they like.. and can hide from the rest and ignore people more easily at home.

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bisikletci@reddit

The problem is that everyone likes to believe WFH is more productive.

Yeah that's because published scientific studies overwhelmingly show that they are, on top of numerous other benefits. You anecdotes aren't good evidence against that.

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Fudge_is_1337@reddit

I've read an awful lot of studies evidencing that people prefer working from home or flexible working, or feel more productive from home. There's zero argument from me that hybrid working/WFH is a good thing for employees from a W/L balance, commute cost, flexibility perspective.

I haven't read much that indicates they actually are more productive across various types of roles. There's a good example in here of a call centre that went fully remote and saw 10% productivity increase, but call centres are kind of a unique case in that they are heavily metricised, so measuring these things is more straightforward.

There's more than a few people in this thread (including the comment directly beneath yours) sharing various artciles of statistics which support WFH in general, but they are fairly light on actual productivity numbers. Have you got examples of the studies you mean? My googling is honestly letting me down, I'm getting caught in an infinite loop of articles referencing other articles, and unable to find the actual studies

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hollowcrown51@reddit

I'm generally in favour of a hybrid work approach, but I think a lot of people advocating for fully work from home are in a lucky position where they have jobs which allow them to. The people who are also most passionate about work from home are going to be the ones shouting about it the loudest, because it is a much more comfortable way to work and it can be more productive.

However I think there a lot of clear drawbacks as well benefits. A lot of meetings do just work better when people are on-site, especially when the problems are more complex and you're working with physical products and kind of need specialist equipment or hands on interaction.

Another often overlooked point is the mentoring and personal development aspect of things. When you're sat next to a skilled engineer, you can simply ask them to help you quickly with something in CAD. It simply works much better than Teamsing someone for something that might be a 1 minute exercise.

At my work we recently had a consultancy on the return to office policy, because all of our junior engineers felt like they simply were not learning from senior people. Most on reddit will say that it's not their problem to help out other members of their team when they can be working on their own stuff, but when you're in a team trying to solve complex problem that kind of stuff is really excited.

As a result unless you're specifically remote (which you can ask for) you're supposed to be on site for at least 3 days a week, which I think is a perfectly fine policy.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Surveys are not science.

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snoopswoop@reddit

I think your problem is that you're not even very good at reading, hence working from anywhere is difficult.

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Rendogog@reddit

As a software engineer, I can empirically prove it for my teams, they are most productive at home with occaisional face to face meetings for certain design or planning activities. Code volume increased, code quality pretty consistent.

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queenieofrandom@reddit

All the research is against you on this

https://standout-cv.com/stats/remote-working-statistics-UK collation of studies and stats

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rising_then_falling@reddit

I didn't see any of that showing a productivity improvement. Also that research is basically opinion poll based, rather than observation based - as is all 'research' in this area.

The biggest advantage of fully remote work, by far, is being able to recruit from a much larger pool of workers, including international workers. That outweighs the negatives of focus, communication, mentoring etc.

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queenieofrandom@reddit

Then you didn't look at the sources and statistics properly

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Fudge_is_1337@reddit

I don't think the person you are responding to is incorrect here - that article isn't offering all that much explicitly on productivity. From my read, there are a small number of bullets a long way down that cover the benefits from a pure productivity perspective

The CIPD found that 38% of organisations say remote working has improved productivity. Obvious query is what did the other 62% say
75% of workers say that they are more productive when working at home, because of the lack of distractions from colleagues. This is people's opinions, which while valuable is not actually a measure of direct productivity
75% of UK CEOs have observed improved productivity, found a survey from IWG. . The IWG article I found on this doesn't have this number directly linked to observations on productivity - 75% only appears in the context of businesses optimism about growth
55% of people claim that they can concentrate better when working at home. See bullet 2, and also this number is pretty close to 50% anyway
Three major studies (JD Edwards, American Express, and Compaq) found that remote workers are between 15% – 45% more productive than their office counterparts

The last one sounds promising, but finding the original studies is proving surprisingly hard. Various articles have a similar statement, but they all reference a Global Workplace Analytics article (which has no detail), not the original studies. If you've got the original studies, could you share a link?

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

I can only talk from my personal experience of dealing with lots of poor performance of people WFH, that miraculously disappears when they are in the office. And it's just common sense that you learn more when personally interacting with a group of people rather than sitting alone in your box room.

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theocrats@reddit

And it's just common sense that you learn more when personally interacting with a group of people rather than sitting alone in your box room

Hmm if only all of human knowledge was available with one click of a mouse. Oh well guess ill have to find out asking Geoff from purchasing who believes in chemtrails.

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BeatificBanana@reddit

Right? When I want to brainstorm a problem with someone I just give them a message or call on slack and chat to them for a few minutes exactly as I would do in person on office days. I'm in constant contact with my team regardless of where we're working from.

The only conversations I miss out on when working from home are the impulsive non-work related chats like what people are having for lunch or what so and so wore to whosit's wedding. And I will be honest, I dont feel like those chats help me work better. Quite the opposite, they just distract me

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xxtherealgbhxx@reddit

Anecdotal rubbish. Every bit of research on this has shown unequivocally wfh overall leads to higher productivity, better retention, better morale and an altogether better workplace. It's not for everyone, I get it, but your personal bias doesn't match the science.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

It's not science. Most of those surveys are just people's opinions too.

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xxtherealgbhxx@reddit

Your laziness makes it so easy. I wonder when you say other people are lazy wfh, you mean you are.

https://www.entegra.health/research-blog/increasingproductivity

https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/working-paper/how-hybrid-working-home-works-out

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10869-024-09970-7

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308596124001034

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Idontunderstandmost@reddit

Without sounding accusatory, I do wonder how much of this is a failure to recruit trustworthy people who are genuinely competent and can work from home productively. Also, a lot could be down to the modern workplace tools you have available at your place of work that digitally make collaboration, face to face, workplace social channels, company news and honest feedback and etc, all of that (and more) still available to flexible or remote working employees - digital Transformation plays a huge part in addressing some of the barriers you describe.

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queenieofrandom@reddit

That's why research is important, vibes and anecdotes aren't evidence.

And if that was the case outsourcing would never have worked in the first place, long before covid. Large scale international projects would never have worked, yet they have and do. Every issue your discussing is poor management, which is an entirely different issue

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eriometer@reddit

There is a whole cohort of younger people who have never really learnt workplace culture.

During covid I was pretty fine, I had a nice desk to at home plus I had years of office experience that meant I just “knew” how to make things work. All those in office chats, conversations over the kettle, office politics etc. Even picking up the phone to call someone! All skills we didn’t realise we were learning.

Missing out on that “foundation” is more of a problem than is really acknowledged. Especially if you’re also stuck on the edge of your bed in a cramped house share as your workplace. It blurs the edges of your work and home life too badly.

I really feel for that cohort.

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InsertObligatoryPun@reddit

The development point is just as varied as the productivity point though. I effectively learned my BA/Scrum Master role with no practical experience despite my team being scattered across the country. Then when I found my current role during the pandemic, I learned more in 6 months than previous hires had learned in a year, all remote. I don’t see the inside of my office for 2 years.

It’s absolutely doable, but just like productivity variable from person to person.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

But how much more would you have learned in person? I'm not saying you can't learn a job from home, but I think it's difficult to reach your full potential. I had to learn a new job from home and I did it very well, but after a year in that job I knew I wasn't anywhere near where I would have been had I been office based.

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InsertObligatoryPun@reddit

Honestly? Not much more.

Remote work capability is so good now. Everything I could do in person I can do through Teams now. It’s way easier to get someone to help because I can easily see who’s available. I get better internet connection at home on WiFi than I do in the office via Ethernet.

Couple that with a vastly improved work life balance and increased capability town while sick, as well as not being distracted by everyone in the office.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Being able to contact someone through teams is not the same as being with them in the office. You can't learn what you don't see.

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InsertObligatoryPun@reddit

That’s what screen sharing is for.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

It's really not the same. It's not even about seeing someone's screen 🙄

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InsertObligatoryPun@reddit

It kind of is, though.

If WFH is an option, then you’re almost certainly laptop based, which means all your work is on a screen. Need to learn to do something? It’ll be on a screen. Need to check if you’re doing something right? Screen.

Plus, if you need to actually talk to someone, that’s what headsets are for.

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AutomaticInitiative@reddit

My entire team is 250 miles away. I am based in a satellite office where all the other people are people from a company my company bought that have nothing to do with my work. It's a small noisy room with radio and 4 conversations at once, I learn nothing, I get nothing from the relationships I build there, there's no senior management, so my boss agrees that I'm better off working from home, which facilitates more focus time and being able to hop on and off calls with my team and customers.

Your situation is not every situation.

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bumbleb33-@reddit

You're assuming that there's anyone around who's in your team. This isn't the case for a lot of companies now especially as they're outsourcing to cheaper areas of the world. So you pay to go in to sit on teams meetings with people in London, India, Malaysia, and Eastern European countries when you could be doing the same at home and saving pollution and wear and tear in infrastructure

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pablothewizard@reddit

I haven't found this to be true at all. I've worked at home for six years now. When I started I didn't know how to code at all, now I know several languages and tools because I actually have the flexibility to self study.

I switched to a technical role at my company and now I'm a senior, in line for another promotion.

I'm very happy with my development and not once has it ever occurred to me that I could have done more in the office. I wouldn't care to find out either because my quality of life is improved at home.

The answer here is that WFH suits some people better than others and there is no right or wrong answer on this.

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DarkStarComics333@reddit

Nah, I've seen SO many people on Reddit boasting about how they do nothing all day when they wfh except game/sleep/watch TV etc and move their mouse occasionally so their computer doesn't go to sleep. I've also seen a lot of people say they work longer hours and are more productive when they don't have people distracting them.

I support people working from home. Seems ridiculous to force people into an office when the job can be done remotely and one of the main reasons people are shitting themselves over it is the loss of revenue for those who own offices and for lunch-y chains like Pret.

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MC-SZ@reddit

My place during half term you see a marked decrease in performance of parents. But you're not going to pay for child care when you sit at home. We also had one guy who said he couldn't do a meeting because his daughter was crying. Turns out his 2 year old was sick and Mum was at work. How is he working from home as the primary care giver to a 2 year old. His kid comes first I get that but if he's office based he's taking a family day. That's why my company keep restricting WFH.

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ithepinkflamingo@reddit

Comments like this are wild - there is no reflection by companies on their own practices and culture.

‘Oh, WFH doesn’t work’ - cool, did you try to make it work?

Did you hire the right people, did you set the right expectations, do you know how to measure productivity, do you have a clear process for managing poor performers regardless of where someone works? How did you set a culture of learning and growth that was accessible to everyone, what culture do you have that facilitates relationship building?

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H1ghlyVolatile@reddit

I’m the complete opposite, and get more work done at home. I went into the office today and just spent most of the day chatting to people.

Time in a meeting - 1hr. Working hours - 0hr Chatting to everyone- 6 hours, at least.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Do you WFH the rest of the week? If so, then it's fair to say the downtime on office days is very much impacted by mainly WFH and hardly seeing your colleagues.

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H1ghlyVolatile@reddit

Depends on the work. Sometimes I’ll be in the office 1 day a week, sometimes 2 or 3.

I’m just easily distracted by other people, and sometimes wonder if I have ADHD to be perfectly honest, but the less distractions the better.

In my last place, we would start at 9, work for 45 minutes to an hour, and then get coffee. There goes another 30 odd minutes. Back to the desk, and then account for the various other 10 to 15 minute chats throughout the day. It all adds up.

When COVID started, management were shitting themselves at the thought of us WFH. However, we worked on a ticket system and all of a sudden, they had never seen productivity like it. So it does work.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Not always in my experience. Some people's productivity is appalling when WFH.

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InternalKing@reddit

You seem to be suspiciously passionate about office working

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SeoulGalmegi@reddit

What's suspicious about it? Some people prefer it/see benefits to it.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Why suspicious? I'm just sharing my experience. I don't even work in an office anymore.

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snoopswoop@reddit

Some peoples productivity is appalling when working from work.

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H1ghlyVolatile@reddit

Oh it definitely is, I’m not saying everyone is more productive at home. There are definitely benefits to both options, which is why I think hybrid is the best option.

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dazedan_confused@reddit

What trends do you witness in those people? Is it possible that they're not hard working usually, and thus WFH is beneficial to them? Because I know a lot of people who have childcare duties who were more productive (or at least, able to work longer) because they had WFH capability.

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SeoulGalmegi@reddit

You're getting heavily downvoted for making a very decent point.

If I worked from home on my own very productively, I'd absolutely expect any day I did go into the office to be very different.

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Ok_Advantage6174@reddit

I don't think that is 'fair to say' at all. I think that is a very broad speculative statement which is purely your own opinion.

For example, I'm in a similar position with hybrid working, and my days in the office are of a similar fashion, which is HAVING to listen to people's rubbish in the office and slowing down/preventing me from work (which obviously doesn't happen when WFH).

Everyone is different, but it's blatantly naive to not acknowledge there is a section of staff who solely like going into the office for a social life rather than be a productive worker.

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dtr1002@reddit

That's a management problem surely?

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bow_down_whelp@reddit

Mate if I can't be fucked doing much today at home, you can be guaranteed I won't be doing much in the office if I was there

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lelpd@reddit

Yep. Until I started managing people I’d always thought there’s no reason for mandatory office days in my company. People are so much harder to coach, and seem to hold off asking questions in a way they don’t during office days.

It also seems to be an interesting coincidence that the junior staff in my department who get given warnings for not attending enough office days (2 per week, but realistically if you average 1 per week you won’t get pulled up on it), are also always the underperforming juniors of the team.

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Lauracb18@reddit

Not disagreeing about the general benefit of office days on choaching and passive development but be cautious of conflating correlation with causation.

The reason they're not performing well and the reason they're missing office days could both be caused by a separate reason (e.g., engagement / enthusiasm / issues at home / etc, etc.) rather than office attendence being the direct cause of good performance.

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lelpd@reddit

Yeah, I completely agree with those as possibilities for poorer performance.

Maybe a lot of these people would still be under-performers if they were in the office every day of the week, because they’re e.g. just generally a person with a poor work ethic, but it’s definitely a trend that’s picked up on.

It makes it difficult to justify re-increasing WFH days in the department (not that it’s my choice to make) when the junior staff in the lower performance zones are the ones constantly not doing their office days.

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jkt2ldn@reddit

I am not convinced whenever they mention about low productivity for people who WFH. Many companies refuse to invest in technologies, equipments or staffs. Let alone giving pay raises. Yet, they blame WFH when productivity is low. Weirdly, they never disclose the savings they make by allowing staff WFH.

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cmrndzpm@reddit

I knew before even reading the replies to this comment that you’d be getting slated. You can’t have a civil conversation about WFH on Reddit, it’s bizarre.

Some work better in the office and find it more beneficial, some work better at home, it’s as simple as that. I don’t know why we need to get so tribal about it.

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exhausted-pangolin@reddit

I agree. Now I am in a management position I see about 90% of people absolutely rinsing the piss out of the system. It feels bad to be on "the wrong side" of the issue but the fact is people are abusing the goodwill that goes along with WFH

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Hardie1247@reddit

I would argue the complete opposite for some people - my team have done nothing but hold me back since I started at my place, daily arguments in office between them distracting me, constant walk-ins by friends of the team that disrupt everything, team members repeating the same conversations every single day for years taking focus off work. When I work from home I can focus and devote all of my attention to the work, and I get about 10x the work done per day than any other member of the team (I'm currently working 2 people's jobs at once) and we have records of the work completed every day, I average daily around 8-10x the work than the 2nd person on the team, and I complete it to a higher standard.

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Miasmata@reddit

I 100% learn far better when we can have focused calls that can be recorded, rather than just sitting next to each other squinting over screens. Its far easier to focus, stay later to finish work etc when I don't have to be surrounded by chatter in an uncomfortable environment and I don't have to waste my money and time of travel

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super_sammie@reddit

Hi from age 13 i successfully taught people to play online games and make money.

RuneScape was the game… vorago was the boss £3 a kill…

You may work in HR but I’d say that if you can’t teach people and manage them without being face to face you are the problem.

If you can’t video call someone through basic processes I’d suggest you are the issue….

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QVRedit@reddit

There are those who are very good at their jobs, and can easily work from home - but then don’t get to interact with more junior colleagues who they would otherwise help to train. So there can be training implications.

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diyguitarist@reddit

"Also you do not learn as much from colleagues when you WFH, so the workforce doesn't develop in the same way. So even those who genuinely are productive are not developing as quickly as they would by working directly alongside colleagues."

The problem with this is:

" Over COVID they shut down the office and made us all WFH contractually. I was on shit pay and moved companies and while we had a boilerplate base location we were never expected in office. They shut down that base location along with a load of other satellite offices and shrunk it to a bunch of core locations several hours apart across the country."

You would never, ever be with your team. All your hybrid days would be different, you'd all be in different offices, or if you were in the same building, somehow at the same, you'd be on different floors not sitting together because 100% it's a hot desking situation. So all your communication would be on teams anyway.

My partner used to work in a building with a floor for each team. They downsized during covid so all the teams now can't fit in the building at all. So if she was to go in, the team either aren't there or on different floors if they are there, so back to team calls. So why go back?

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Well that's why many employers are wanting everyone to go back.

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diyguitarist@reddit

How can you all go back if, like in this chaps case, they've closed the main office and several satellite offices and only got a handful of core offices hundreds of miles from where the entire staff originally worked? Unbelievable travel time aside where would they all sit and work? They all fit in their old offices, they can not possibly fit now they've downsized, see my last paragraph.

My mate works for the council and they had a all hands in situation. Everyone went in, after they had downsized after COVID, and him and aeveral others were standing in the canteen unable to work because there wasn't anywhere to work. Because it was standing room only. As In, all the desks were taken, as we're all the little tables for chilling, as was all the space in the foyer, as was ,yeah you guessed it, all the space in the canteen.

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ToadInTheHole7181@reddit

you do not learn as much from colleagues when you WFH

Not true. I was hired into my current job as 100% remote. My fellow team members are all over the country. We are very active on Microsoft Teams and often initiate a Teams call to discuss things. We learn from one another all the time.

Maybe HR people are not as capable.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

I'm not talking about HR people. HR are the ones who have to manage people in any department who are not performing. But nice try.

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r2d2rigo@reddit

Another case of HR making the wrong decisions based on completely irrelevant metrics.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Ah, it's good to see you have a thorough understanding without any of the facts 🙄

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r2d2rigo@reddit

I learned the lesson when HR caved to a company wide redundancy in the middle of COVID thinking everyone on the tech team was replaceable, and then proceeded to lose multimillion projects during the next year.

Busy bodies and yes men that just go through the motions, AI chatbots could do a better job.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Well you show a complete lack of understanding of the role of HR. HR don't decide when redundancies are needed, management do that.

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perhapsflorence@reddit

Classic HR drivel.

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Twistpunch@reddit

Back to office with 4 working days per week seems to be a good compromise then?

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eww1991@reddit

However there's a significant proportion of people who aren't.

I'm definitely more productive in office (2 days a week) especially when on a more tedious project. But the less productive days have definitely helped prevent burnout after crunch weeks

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InternalKing@reddit

I bet you used to tell the teacher the homeworks due

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olivinebean@reddit

While getting a barely average mark because they can't even back up their claims here

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FSL09@reddit

The learning point massively depends on how your employer operates or structures things. The people I currently need to learn from don't work in the same office as me so I'm not going to learn anything working face to face. When I'm teaching others something new, I find it much easier over a call with screen sharing rather than trying to sit around 1 desk, with everyone copying along.

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20127010603170562316@reddit

Also you do not learn as much from colleagues when you WFH, so the workforce doesn't develop in the same way.

I just finished a six month FTC at a company. They asked if I wanted to stay on. I did not.

It was 100% in the office, but the cow of a line manager would not allow ANY conversations in the office. She also hated anyone not sitting in their seat.

So even basic conversations were done in teams, even if we were sat a few desks away. It was stupid and frustrating.

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borrelborrelborrel@reddit

My company monitors various metrics. Things like work output, job satisfaction, work-life balance, retention, and development.

They found that the sweet spot is 2 days minimum in the office with the option to do more if you want or need to. (This option was given because some people were negatively affected by being alone for so long)

Regarding development and communication, I think it's a work culture thing, mainly. Nothing will ever be as good as being sat next to someone, but if done right, it's nothing drastic.

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ExcitingBox5throw@reddit

I agree a hybrid approach is so much better. We don't need to go back to 5 days a week. But a mix of office and at home is the perfect balance

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No_Volume8304@reddit

You lost me at ‘worked in hr’

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

That's your problem, not mine.

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2muchroom@reddit

This is 100% true. Some people are self motivated and do what the job requires regardless. Some people are lazy shites and do as little as as possible. The latter do not do well working at home.

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Astonednerd@reddit

Yeah this is absolutely true. Being a Covid graduate I love wfh/hybrid working and will fight tooth and nail against any 4 or 5 day office mandate, but I also recognise there are absolutely productivity benefits to 2 or 3 days a week in the office. Ultimately I hope most places settle on 2 or 3 days in. That gives a good balance of face to face time for collaborative work and meetings, alongside the time savings and flexibility of some wfh days.

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tsmith070707@reddit

As a leader of a $10B company with 40 employees under me, I can document a 30% reduction in productivity for days in office for those with hybrid schedules. It’s old school thinking and micro mgmt control of older execs. I cannot convince them even with hard numbers rto mandates affect moral and thus production. I do believe it is also wholly dependent on the industry but if you work on a computer all day, you cannot prove productivity is higher in office. We are losing talent left and right to rto mandates. It’s ridiculous. They cannot close Pandora’s box and it’s driving them insane to the point they will lose talent over pride and control.

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Most-Island-7043@reddit

Lots of people take the piss WFH, thats why. They ruined it for everyone else.

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YchYFi@reddit

Exactly. It's why we can't have nice things.

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the_night_max@reddit

Statistically, this isn’t true. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but overall, the vast majorities of companies find remote work improves productivity and staff retention. You get plenty of people who also take the piss in an office.

The reasons they want people back are corporate landlords, control, and an increasingly right-wing political atmosphere.

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JGG5@reddit

They also like to dress it up in their favorite faux-populist bullshit. “Plumbers and mechanics can’t work from home, so it’s not fair that office workers get to!”

Meanwhile, the people actually pushing that argument are “executives” who spend half their time golfing (“networking”) or at a three-hour £500 lunch (“collaboration with partners”) or posting on LinkedIn and Xitter (“thought leadership”).

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delicious_cakeee@reddit

I'm willing to bet plumbers, mechanics, healthcare workers, and anyone whose job requires a commute would love if the traffic was heavily reduced due to roles that don't need to be in office being at home. When corporate companies in my city started RTO'ing at the same time, traffic has become unbearable.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

What statistics?

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Zavodskoy@reddit

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/study-shows-working-from-home-has-potential-to-significantly-boost-productivity

First one I found on google, a call centre tracking 3500 employees saw a 10% increase in productivity when they moved all staff to WFH

The only downside they found was that staff that were originally in the office had higher long term productivity than staff they took on who only worked from home

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

Yep, because they were able to gain more experience by working in the office 🤷‍♀️

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Zavodskoy@reddit

But the entire company was still 10% more productive than it was when everyone was in the office so that's irrelevant anyway

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Indie89@reddit

I think the only issue with using this as an example is call center roles are so uniquely measurable. It's so easy to track performance and see why is/ isn't doing their job. It makes managing them so much easier as performance is all on a dashboard.

Your average corporate in marketing / technology / analytics is much harder to monitor and evaluate performance.

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Zavodskoy@reddit

He asked for an example of WFH generating a measurable improvement in performance, I gave him an example of WFH giving a measurable improvement in performance 🤷

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Indie89@reddit

It's a good example and actually a great example of one that can be done from home.

I suppose my question how do we make other roles more measurable without turning into micromanaging

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theocrats@reddit

https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/workers-are-less-productive-working-remotely-at-least-thats-what-their-bosses-think/

Management think workers are less productive, but they're not.

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Left_Set_5916@reddit

That's just poor management though

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phatboi23@reddit

they take just as much of the piss in the office.

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RandomPrices@reddit

Old white dudes who want to get away from their wives making the top level decisions on this matter. They typically don't have any other life duties (or outsourced to a helper/family), live pretty close to the office and like to keep things the way they were 30 years ago. Narcissism! It's as simple as that.

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Vermillion5000@reddit

Because some out of touch guy at the top mandates it usually because they have no clue on the benefits of hybrid and how different people work better in different environments

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quietly_thoughtful@reddit

I totally get the challenge! Balancing the remote work benefits with team development can be tricky. Many companies are rethinking their strategies to keep growth sustainable without burnout.

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KaisonKeller@reddit

It resonates so much. Forcing a return often ignores the investments employees have already made in home setups.
Many founders are exploring how to scale teams sustainably without overwhelming everyone.
If founders want growth, the real question is not where we work or how we deliver outcomes, which matters the most?

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RaspberryJammm@reddit

Especially annoying since disabled people really benefit from WFH

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

And people who double as caregigers for disabled people.

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delicious_cakeee@reddit

Someone's going to say you're not supposed to be working as a caregiver during your work hours, but to that I'll say a lot of people just want to be home so if their elderly parent or disabled sibling has an emergency, they can call 911 on their behalf. Most people who step in as caregivers aren't professionally trained or qualified to be doing that, and they don't, they just need to be near their loved one for meal time (lunch break) and if something bad happens.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

This is it.

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PrestigiousGuess458@reddit

I have been wfh the same duration as you, live over an hour commute each way (without traffic) from the office. My partner is disabled and I double as a caregiver in a number of ways. We also have a 10 month old son who I am the primary caregiver for. I manage to do all of this around wfh and flexible hours - it enables me to keep all these plates spinning.

My job is almost entirely project based and almost everything I do is solo work, with no need for collaboration. My company are moving to a 'framework' where there is no 'mandatory' time in office, but they very much have an expectation that you are there 1-2 days a week. Its so pointless in my circumstance and so detrimental to my home situation that I don't know quite how to proceed. Discussing it with my senior manager and the response was very much 'we understand that peoples situations vary, but we also can't be seen to give preferential treatment'

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PrincessPK475@reddit

Utter bollocks (your employer). It's called giving reasonable accommodations. Your senior manager seems unaware that an employment tribunal might very well see it the same way 😏

Let them have their policy, how are they going to track it anyway? What an absolute waste of resource. Do they have nothing better to do and need to create menial LM busy body work to continue to justify their own wage?

Or be highly erratic with it in malicious compliance and make it impossible to track your movements that they give up entirely and stop tracking. 2 hours a day at the most obscure and inconvenient times possible, change the days every week.

I'm so sorry. Fricking idiotic and backwards in progressive thinking when proof is in the pudding that WFH for a lot of jobs works and is more efficient and cost effective as well as employee role satisfaction and benefits of creating employee loyalty. Grinds my gears reading stories like this.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

I feel you mate, especially when you got another dependent apart from your SO.

It's annoying because really the solution is simple but management / HR will drag their feet with this stuff because of fears of "wah preferential treatment" - to me the deciding factor is "does this person deliver their job? yes? then carry on as BAU"

At the moment it isn't even a policy yet just there seems to be a slight shift in the attitude that makes me nervous. Not helped when they talk about renting an office near where I live (still awkward as I need to be within a few mins of partner) because we have a lot of staff who joined from another MSP that shuttered its business years ago.

My attitude ultimately is "will I achieve anything if I go to the office? no? then I'm working from my home office setup" - I've said to my manager I'm open to site travel / visits etc few times a year but with sensible notice so I can make arrangements for my partner (eg have her parents / sister on hand to help her)

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SeahorseQueen1985@reddit

Do you mean helping disabled people whilst working or it's easier to commute to provide care?

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RaspberryJammm@reddit

I think they meant family carers who care for somebody in their own home (eg. Looking after a disabled spouse, sibling, child or parent)

Even people who have care duties for somebody outside the household can benefit from WFH particularly if hours can be flexible. Any time not commuting is time they can spend make sure somebody is fed, clean and medicated.

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F_DOG_93@reddit

And working career mothers. Plenty of mothers have careers because they can work from home. For a lot of them, working back in the office isn't just inconvenient. It's out of the question and a deal-breaker. The RTO is a sexist movement pushed by old white C-suites that don't want women in their workforce.

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bellatrix99@reddit

A point which is often missed, thank you for bringing it up. I’m disabled - if I was to work from office 5 days a week I’d have to drop my hours further (I’m already part time).

I’m more productive and able to work now.

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reallydontaskme@reddit

I work for a medium sized company (500 employees) and we had a meet the CEO thing the other day.

He was quite candid that for the C-Suite having people in the office made a lot of sense as most of what he did was talk to people all day.

Extrapolate downwards the hierarchy and you get the silly mandates.

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Cunari@reddit

When you’re a hammer everything you see is a nail.

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Left_Set_5916@reddit

Because of a lot of big business owners also have financial investments in business properties. Alan Suger is prime example.

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sassafrass648@reddit

Mind control.

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Mskadu@reddit

Because most of the time these decisions are made by people in the "senior leadership team" who base this on data seen on a spreadsheet/slides about how productive it will suddenly make everyone (jazz hands).

These usually have no nuanced understanding that particular roles (like yours, perhaps) do not need RTO. Nor are they interested.

Most of us forget that companies are profit-making organisations that have exactly that at the forefront. They are not concerned about individuals (unless they start making a noise/move).

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fish993@reddit

I actually think it's kind of the opposite - senior leadership pushing RTO because of soft, intangible stuff like the 'company culture' and ' collaborative office atmosphere'. The people making these decisions are generally later on in their careers and will have worked most of that time in the office full-time, so I think the fact that that style of working has largely disappeared in many companies will feel off to them even if it's not actually causing any issues. Whenever I've seen companies try to move back to working more in the office, there never seems to be any actual evidence involved in the decision.

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doctorace@reddit

I’m convinced it’s that most of them don’t do much socialising outside of the office, and they’re struggling without their colleagues there.

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TachiH@reddit

Also it turns out most layers of management aren't needed if people work from home, sadly those management layers also make decisions.

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Bellatrixforqueen@reddit

Because some people take the mick and it’s also not ideal for mental health

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Cool_Doubt2152@reddit

I work somewhere that was hybrid until last year and is now 5 days a week in the office.

I also manage a team and have been promoted to manager level since Covid.

My job is fast paced, high volume, pressure cooker. It involves a lot of collaboration but also a lot of ‘head down and get shit done’ type work. We also have a lot of virtual meetings with external people.

My preference will always be hybrid, both on a personal level and from a manager perspective.

5 days in and I get fuck all done, people are constantly popping by my desk to ask me or talk to me about something, I end up working longer, BUT, it’s easier to support your team when you are visible.

Doing 5 days remote is much better for my own workload and focus, but it’s harder to do any strategy and bounce ideas around with your team, it’s harder to delegate and I end up ‘just doing it’ because it’s quicker rather than helping somebody to learn something new, it’s harder to train somebody new, it’s harder to manage people who aren’t performing great in a certain area, and I end up in more meetings.

Hybrid with 3 days office and 2 days home is perfect IMO. Monday at home when you are less social and is my most meeting heavy and ‘head down’ heavy day. Middle 3 days in where the most stuff happens so I can be around to help the team. Friday at home to burn through my to do list from the week.

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BuddyLegsBailey@reddit

The way Reddit talks about WFH, it's an absolute amazement that every company in the world didn't go bust pre-Covid when everyone worked from an office

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360Saturn@reddit

I mean...everyone seems to have memory holed the fact that most big company offices went out of their way to make themselves places people wanted to go to, with onsite gyms, showers, lockers and storage, your own desk where you could leave your own things, canteens and cafes, free breakfast, parking permits and all kinds of other perks that have now gone the way of the dodo.

A far cry from all office workers being expected to carry a remote office-in-a-bag with them at all times & when going into the office have to preemptively book a hot desk on a different floor every day and carry all your things with you at all times.

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BuddyLegsBailey@reddit

Oddly, not all offices were the former pre- Covid, and not all offices are the latter post-covid

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360Saturn@reddit

I didn't say they were.

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BuddyLegsBailey@reddit

You used the phrases 'everyone' and 'most' in your first sentence. A sweeping, and incorrect, assertion

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360Saturn@reddit

Oh no, I colloquially used 'everyone' the way that regular people used it every day (uncited) in the country rather than insisting on surveying every single person in the country before writing a two paragraph reddit post. Wind your neck in, christ. Nothing you said was remotely evidenced either...

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

This.

For my role I work across 4 separate laptops - 1 company, 3 client SOE. I don't see the point of going to an office where none of my colleagues are located (because we're scattered across the country, ranging from scotland to kent) and none of the people we work with except for maybe one or two DBAs + some service reporting guy. What am I going to achieve that I can't at home?

Probably helps I am somewhat antisocial but I never missed the social element of the office that much. Maybe the free food that people brought in at the old job but that's it.

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ThatBandicoot4769@reddit

And everyone screams that they should get paid more if they need to go to a workplace to cover increased costs, but forget they didn't take a pay cut when they switched to WFH.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

To be fair the expectations have changed, COVID and the WFH proved companies could still get most things done that they had previously done in office.

I'm not saying people should be paid more (though expecting people to travel further isnt reasonable without reimbursement) but its a give and take situation.

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BeatificBanana@reddit

forget they didn't take a pay cut when they switched to WFH.

That's because most of us were on shit salaries and not getting paid what we were worth in the first place. Working from home made the poor compensation a bit more bearable.

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AutomaticInitiative@reddit

I couldn't get a paycut because back then I was on £20 more than minimum wage lmao. You are all over this thread - why are you so committed to this even though apparently you don't work in an office anymore?

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BuddyLegsBailey@reddit

Particularly those that were happily taking their 'London weighting'

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Not_That_Magical@reddit

It’s a way to lay people off by stealthp

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Historical_Cobbler@reddit

Two reasons I see, people take the piss on WFH, I’ve had people decline meetings because they were packing a suitcase.

The other is that you get alot of criticism from new hires that they’re isolated in learning the role and that teamwork and moral is poor and we put that down to people not actually meeting each other.

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HMP729G@reddit

So that’s on the management of those two people to sort it out.

I’ve been working from home nearly exclusively since 2020 and have never once missed a meeting.

All walks of life you’re going to have some that take the piss. Punishing everyone isn’t the answer.

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explax@reddit

So that’s on the management of those people to sort it out.

It's just easier to have them in the office or take a day off rather than wasting valuable time managing crappy performance that could be avoided by having people in the office. Not saying it's better but that's the argument against it.

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Historical_Cobbler@reddit

They were sorted out, but just because you’ve never missed a meeting doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen to the n-th degree, or that people’s decorum disappears.

You say everyone shouldn’t be punished, but employment law and disciplinary procedures only work with a consistent approach or they get overturned, so everyone has to follow the same rule.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

I’ve had people decline meetings because they were packing a suitcase.

Yeah at that point it's a pisstake and needs to be managed with those folks individually unless they were explicitly taking their lunch break or something (and even then, surely it can wait)

I don't regularly take normal lunch breaks. Usually 20 min tops if that. Even when prepping food / eating I'm at my desk or have my laptop with me so I can keep on doing stuff. Or in slow time when on a call I've sometimes got other jobs (like rigging up some new ethernet wall jacks for my home office) done in the background. Company still benefits because they get more flexibility and longer hours than me. Colleagues have reached out to me on their nights on call and because I am up to around 1AM ish I usually can give them a steer or step in to lend them a hand.

Even when my partner needs me (and lets me know via SMS) - eg she needs a hand getting up etc I still make her wait for me to wrap up OR if it can't wait I'll still work through calls / carry my laptop with me and tap away / mental note.

Its give and take basically.

[-]

WildWinterberry@reddit

Micromanagers. They’re everywhere

[-]

TawnyTeaTowel@reddit

Based on my experience- because of a whole load of people on social media talking about how they’re skiving or fooling the company in some way, and no one likes a piss taker.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

if people do this they're idiots

[-]

TawnyTeaTowel@reddit

What, go on social media and take the piss? Oh yes.

[-]

TR_881@reddit

I think the short answer is that people like to control other people.

[-]

Rare-Quantity5503@reddit

I hate to be that guy, but this is my genuine belief.

If your work can be done from home, I don’t think you are likely to have that job long term.

I fully believe AI will replace nearly all WHF jobs within, let’s say, 5 years.

Your biggest asset is that you are a meat sack. We aren’t long to be the smart ones.

[-]

ducksoupmilliband@reddit

What your job now out of interest?

[-]

Rare-Quantity5503@reddit

A bit of managing my money, a bit of looking for new businesses to buy and I just bought a chocolate factory and the MVP employee is buy far a little French guy called Claude

[-]

CompetitiveFox6707@reddit

'You can't control what you don't understand'

Once a company gets over like 50-100 employees, the top loses grasp of how things actually function and what their employees do day to day. It's not necessarily intentional and some senior leadership try to make the effort but they are always going to be detached from things and not see the full picture.

With that, there's a human instinct to micromanage and 'connectivity' is always something which people lapse onto as a factor in productivity that doesn't really need to be substantiated in any depth as it's just quite intuitive as important to a business.

RTO is just a reflex nuclear decision that gets made when management isn't competent enough to analyse their business and succumb to this.

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ithepinkflamingo@reddit

I WFH and am similarly concerned my company will decide to enforce an RTO. My performance reviews are always good and I deliver a lot to a high standard. WFH works for me, but my company also gets my best work.

I wouldn’t be able to replicate that performance at the office for a number of reasons including a very simple one: there aren’t enough desks for all the employees and I can never get one when I try to book. I end up working from my laptop in a chair in reception vs my 2 screens at home which means it takes me longer to do the same stuff.

There are absolutely people out there who WFH but shouldn’t - my friend prefers to go in because she gets too distracted at home and realises she doesn’t do her best work there. There will be people who also don’t work well from home but still do it anyway, but that’s about the manager and HR doing some performance management. And then there are people like us who can and do work well from home - hopefully your company will recognise that a one size fits all approach doesn’t make sense and make exceptions where appropriate.

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Yak-Yak69@reddit

It's because everyone knows that WFH are less productive than people who work in offices

[-]

Digidigdig@reddit

Despite evidence to the contrary.

[-]

Yak-Yak69@reddit

That's just not true

If WFH is better for the company then why have the vast majority of companies stopped it?

[-]

Digidigdig@reddit

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/study-shows-working-from-home-has-potential-to-significantly-boost-productivity

[-]

JGG5@reddit

Because the greedhead ownership class wants to reduce headcount, and it’s cheaper and easier to get people to quit by ordering them back to the office 5 days a week than it is to fire them.

[-]

Yak-Yak69@reddit

I can tell you're Gen X that you think that your employer telling you to go into the office is "Ordering" you

They pay your wages....if you don't like it then get another job or start your own company

[-]

RaspberryJammm@reddit

Spite?

[-]

Yak-Yak69@reddit

Yeah thats Apple, Facebook and Microsoft's successful business model

Spire towards their staff

[-]

markvauxhall@reddit

Because 5G / contrails / WEF / Bill Gates / Illuminati / Lizard People

/s

[-]

Pen_dragons_pizza@reddit

I can either fall asleep in my office chair or at home, no difference

[-]

Yak-Yak69@reddit

Back to the office 😂

https://youtu.be/mU9VYcQWSOc

[-]

AcanthisittaFit1066@reddit

Old workplace pushed for 3d pw RTO. Made us all less productive. Noisy office, fighting for quiet spaces so you could make calls. The only thing it benefited was their P&L bottom line as RTO shored up the value of the owned buildings and people left in droves, only to be substituted by uneducated morons.

If people are paid a decent rate for what they do and feel happy at work, they generally will still be as or more productive at home assuming they have the space and peace and tools to do so. Much easier to add on an hour or two when you're not scrambling to get a train home or come back to work after a break in the day.

Where things start to go seriously off the rails is where you underpay and mistreat employees. They will often find ways to skive off and WFH may make that easier, but they will find ways to skive either way in all honesty. People chunter away before and after meetings, take long coffee breaks, sign themselves up for training they don't need and generally do the bare minimum.

I've never worked a job without KPIs and deadlines so if I really was clocking off for big chunks of the day it would be noticed pretty quickly.

In terms of the OP's situation, WFH has been established and presumably tools and systems set up around it. Whatever research says, it all depends on how committed specific people/teams are to doing their jobs and whether they can meet their targets effectively with the resources they have. If they can, why force a change on them?

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yousorusso@reddit

My Christ so many jobsworths in this thread. Glad i have more in my life than that.

[-]

dazedan_confused@reddit

There's a sense that if you're at work, you can do nothing but, well, work. If you're at home, there's a billion things you can do.

Unless you're me, in which case, you spend so much time talking about different projects and asking people for help on projects you may share, that they all eventually beg you to WFH.

Also a lot of companies need to justify the cost of renting the properties they rent out.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

Pre COVID I remember a fellow apprentice who would watch Big Mouth in office on his phone, having picked out a hole in his wrist rest / mat in front of the keyboard. Same guy sent a highly sensitive email from his gmail account too lmao because he'd left it logged in when sending through his browser.

It's all give and take. Yeah, people might do other things when WFH, but people browsed facebook and youtube, music streaming etc when office was a thing, or spent time chatting away instead of working.

Me, personally have seen managers actively suggest people take some of the "slow day" calls to step away from their laptops (wireless headset ayy) and make a drink or stretch their legs. And usually instead of a solid lunch folk can take micro breaks here and there, still achieving the same workload as they would've done in office with less stress.

[-]

mrayner9@reddit

Control. Personally I find offices have a better atmosphere when its not forced but I did tend to find it was same old people coming in everytime.

The worst is when you go to office and just carry on working like you would do at home anyway, everyone around you on Teams calls because none of your team are located in your office

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

This is why I intend to push back if the company ever comes close to this. Of the 10ish people on my team, only one is in my area and that's because we both used to work at the same ex employer (which had an office up till COVID) - the rest scattered across the country in either direction.

Same for the engineers and TAs we work with - they are all scattered about, so it's not like we would be any more effective having a war room when most of the people we'd need are 3rd party / elsewhere and so wouldnt be in attendance.

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markvauxhall@reddit

There has to be intentional colocation for it to be worthwhile.

There is zero point in dragging people into an office if they just spend all day on Teams and having no in person engagement.

It's "bad RTO" and neither the firm nor its people get any of the benefit of RTO from doing it this way.

[-]

PrincessPK475@reddit

Had the "return the office" discussion just a couple weeks ago. Whole team told them to sod off because they talked about "fostering the team culture"

You don't want to lose the office space because it affects the budgets stfu 🤣

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

Neat. How'd that work?

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OwineeniwO@reddit

I'm not sure but someone complained on reddit today because the people without kids had to go into the office and had to do more work because of the people who stayed at home.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

On LAUK? I saw that one. A bit silly they made it a legal question; complain to their manager.

I know plenty folks who WFH and have childcare arrangements, the sensible answer is you take your break / an extended break them finish yours hours when you're back home. This is easily achievable.

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cardboard-collector@reddit

Because corporate landlords aren’t allowed to lose money.

[-]

markvauxhall@reddit

Companies aren't charities, they're not paying corporate landlords for office space if they don't think it adds value to the business.

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Donny-Kong@reddit

You’re getting downvoted but I don’t think anyone was taken the time to explain it. Over simplification but non corporate landlord companies have some sort of investment (direct or in direct) in corporate office space/buildings. I’m essentially a software engineer but the company I work for is heavily invested when I followed the money trail. So are a lot of others. If no one needs/wants office buildings then the value goes down and in a world where “we need ever increasing profits” this is seen as bad. In all honesty what we should have done is kept wfh the norm and used the already built high rises and turned them into apartments. This would have eased the house shortage somewhat. But let’s be honest more houses for the masses isn’t good for business.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

In all honesty what we should have done is kept wfh the norm and used the already built high rises and turned them into apartments.

You know what's really bad? There is a lot of commercial building that's been converted to residential apartments, but it's so shoddily done and at the same time new commercial buildings are being stood up (like offices) while industrial estate gets left to rot, it's so bloody wasteful.

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romulus1991@reddit

But their idea of what adds value can be extremely flimsy and variable.

See - boozy meals out with £700 wine, conferences at Chester Zoo, hiring another sales manager but a having one person risk management department while opearikng in an industry where risk analysis is crucial*.

*All real life examples.

Companies are comprised of very flawed decision makers, especially the more senior the level.

[-]

GrimQuim@reddit

But a commercial estate just of the M6 near Warrington is where people want to work.

[-]

godtierjerker@reddit

The glittering metropolis of Birchwood/Winwick tempts even the wildest souls.

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Adorable_Exchange223@reddit

Here's my take: we're in a recession. Not a technical recession, as GDP is still growing, but that's entirely because of population growth i.e. immigration. GDP per capita (per person) is shrinking, so it's a recession in most people's understanding of the term.

In this context, companies are struggling, and they're trying to cut costs. But it's difficult to let people go these days - making a role redundant is a long and expensive process, it's hard to fire someone who's been around for more than two years, etc.

So, the alternative is you 'encourage' people to quit voluntarily. Asking people to be in the office five days a week is unpopular, and some people will leave. Yes, often it's the most talented people who go first. That's always the way. But when you're struggling as a business you end up making short-sighted decisions because the alternative is unsolvency.

So, long story short, it's not work from the office because companies need you to be there, it's because they know you hate it and want you to leave.

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ReanimatedCyborgMk-I@reddit (OP)

Meh, I intend to fight it and drag out as needed if I have to. Ultimately it'd be a detriment for them because they've had trouble with staffing on my team + especially staffing new people.

[-]

MinceATron@reddit

Due to failing health and 30 years in manufacturing my body is pretty much falling to pieces, constantly off work ill or injured. Ideally i would like a WFH job, but what are the possibilities with no experience ?

What's out there ? Pay doesn't really matter either.

Anyone else made this jump and landed on their feet. Any help would be awesome.

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Rossco1874@reddit

Office is the only way imo of integrating new team members.into an organisation.

I am very pro WFH I hate my office days due to longer days but there are situations where I am happy to go in the full week one of these is when a new team member is starting.

Can get through training much better and quicker in person than on teams and can tell if someone is struggling and doesn't want to say or they may not want to keep bothering you on teams.

Same with upgrades our team and the dev team need to be on site it doesn't work otherwise we all bounce off each other get wind of issues better and can work together on solutions.

For your bau weeks I just feel 5 days is overkill.

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BeatificBanana@reddit

Office is the only way imo of integrating new team members.into an organisation

I promise you this is absolutely not true.

I just started a new job in January, in office only 1 day a week (and not everyone goes in on the same day) so I have only met most of my coworkers in person a few times since starting. I have nevertheless slotted right in. I am in constant communication with my team on slack and we have regular calls to catch up and talk through things we're working on. Not being in the office hasn't hindered my integration whatsoever.

In fact, I've integrated into this team far better and quicker than I did in my last job which required me to be in the office full time. What makes a difference is the communication upheld by everyone in the team and the training you receive, not where you physically work from

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ducksoupmilliband@reddit

How do build global teams in your business?

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Rossco1874@reddit

We don't there Is no need to..work for the nhs.

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ducksoupmilliband@reddit

Ahha. Different needs for different businesses.

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mizcello@reddit

Your first point, all my staff are WFH full time, I’m desperate for staff and will likely close because I can’t get anyone new, the higher people who would previously work in the office along side them, not necessarily training just being someone around if that makes sense, refuse to come into the office and it’s not s great start when you join a new business and everyone works from home while the new person comes into the office 5 days a week with the owner.

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Rossco1874@reddit

For our last 3 new staff we were all in the office for 2 full weeks just for support similar to what you said just being visible makes difference especially for new start getting to know team members.

One of the newbies wanted an extra week before being wfh on their own . Me and another guy volunteered to be in office another week just for the additional support need. If he wanted a fourth week he would have got a slap haha

[-]

Joshouken@reddit

Because the new recruits need to learn from you, your boss needs to keep an eye on your lazy colleagues and team cohesion supports staff retention.

If you have caring responsibilities and your company doesn’t accommodate this then move to a company that does - not super deep

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BeatificBanana@reddit

Havent the overwhelming majority of studies actually found that allowing people to work from home improves staff retention?

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GroundbreakingRing42@reddit

Lazy people. Piss takers. And growing sense of folk getting tired with entitled people.

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oklistening01@reddit

In london its because TFL and shops need you back commuting.

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PsychologicalLeg417@reddit

Interesting that nobody has mentioned the RTO gambit on here yet.

Staff are expensive.

Staff also can be made to work multiple people's jobs in a pinch (because who cares about Staff wellbeing these days?)

Layoffs therefore are good for the net profit graph even if bad for business and shareholders only care about profit.

Layoffs make things look bad to shareholders (because why would you need to fire people if the company is doing well?)

If you can make Staff leave on their own and not replace them, then you can find the absolute minimum number of people actually required to run your company.

Kill your team, to make a killing. The RTO gambit.

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Donny-Kong@reddit

Do you work at my company? This is basically what they did and one of the reasons I’m looking for another job.

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EyeAware3519@reddit

This is the correct answer. Make the job less appealing and people will leave. The ones that stay are going to be boot-lickers that you can exploit easily.

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Few-Proposal-4681@reddit

Or, the ones that leave are the most talented, i.e. employable ones who can easily jump ship and find work somewhere else.

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EyeAware3519@reddit

They don't want talent, they want people who will do whatever they are asked to without questioning.

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matomo23@reddit

Yep. Same reason that very large household name firms in the UK give people vague made job titles, then compare their job roles to outside companies. Next they say “oh you’re overpaid you aren’t getting a pay rise this year at all, not even a cost of living one”.

Same thing, they hope we will leave.

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DiDiPLF@reddit

Cheaper than doing a round of redundancies. More cultural control More direct control Better for new starters/training/ development

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PreferThe1990s@reddit

Your post sounds so much like the employer I work for and have done on an outbound role for about 4 years. WFH allows us to jump on earlier and log off later meaning productivity is better. Theyre starting to phase us back twice a month but not realising this is really making everyone unhappy and costing people more money. Do u work for an energy company or insurance by any chance lol?

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zoltan_g@reddit

Corporate landlords and pedantic waste of space managers that still think turning up to some building somewhere helps you work.

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AltforStrongOpinions@reddit

Some of us actually like being around other people. We're not all miserable shutins.

[-]

AskUK-ModTeam@reddit

Don't be a dick to each other, or other subreddits, places, or people.

Don't be a dick to each other, or other subreddits, places, or people. AskUK contains a variety of ages, experiences, and backgrounds - consider not everyone is operating on the same level or background as you. Listen to others before you respond, and be courteous when doing so.

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billyblobthornton@reddit

Yeah us “shutins “ like being around other people too, but those other people tend to be our friends, partners and families not our colleagues. So I’ll gladly take the 2 hour commute time out and spend time with people I actually like.

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No_Sugar8791@reddit

This is standard extrovert thinking. I like being around other people and the people who don't need to suffer for my benefit.

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docju@reddit

Plus it means that it is easier to resolve problems. Helping someone in person is 100 times more effective than over a screen share.

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alltorque1982@reddit

Work in social care, and I met the IT department once, 6 years ago to collect my laptop from an office the other end of the county to my local office.

Since then every IT issue is screenshare, or raise a ticket and wait.

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docju@reddit

Not sure if you are saying it works for you! My frustration is that I have a coworker who perennially has a dodgy internet connection and the first 15 minutes of any meeting is taken up with deciding to use zoom or teams depending on what is working for her that day.

Plus she waits until scheduled meetings before asking for help with anything meaning that something that could be resolved 3 days earlier if she catches my attention in the office becomes a massive blocker (though perhaps that is why she is not coming in to the office in the first place).

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alltorque1982@reddit

Haha I'd say that's a worker issue in your case, she is a work shy muppett and should be in the office. There are absolutely those that take the piss and my wife has one at her business, I had one but he left.

WFH absolutely works for me, I was meaning that the IT issues have never been resolved in person, so WFH hasn't made any difference for me. I realise I wasn't clear.

We found that (as mobile workers) we were spending so much time going to and from the office BEFORE going out and about, it was madness!!!

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docju@reddit

Yeah that makes sense- IT I have never worked face to face with either, I was speaking more from a collaboration point of view, where in person is definitely better.

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latenightcctv@reddit

Preference to be less social doesn’t mean being miserable tho…

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zoltan_g@reddit

I'm actually very social.

I just don't see the point in travelling 90 minutes to the exactly same thing as I would at home.

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cardboard-collector@reddit

Both my wife and I are fully remote, get to spend more time together and we have more time to do social things like sport and hobbies with friends in the evening. Which part of that isn’t attractive?

I made life long friends in the office before Covid but the retort that people who prefer remote are “miserable shut ins” is a joke.

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KarmaIssues@reddit

Some of us don't use work as a subsitute for a social life.

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zoltan_g@reddit

Hahaha, numpty.

My entire company (over 10,000 people) work remotely first. We go into the office once in a while.

I work with people in India, Singapore and the US, so working from home is a damn sight easier.

Also, i get way more done at home.

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VexedRacoon@reddit

A few options:

They don't trust you, managers/staff lack object permanence and aren't comfortable using online messaging systems. This is not helped by the news picking up very rare cases of someone working 3 jobs at once and making out that it's a hugely common situation.
Offices are often rented. Those rents make up a lot of pension investments, as it was always seen as a secure return investment. If people stopped renting offices it could affect pension funds, and government and banks are aware of this (and banks obviously invest in them for other purposes), which is why the banks and government were keen to bring people back.
There is legal issues if someone decides to go abroad and work unauthorised, tax implications, security issues. VPN's are pretty secure but what if your device is stolen and it has company/state secrets on it?
One point, but not a reason, if you can be located anywhere and do the same job, what stops them off-shoring your role for a fraction of the cost?

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Proud_Temperature_55@reddit

Most services are crap now and I believe it’s a lot to do with WFH. There is no chance that it’s more productive.

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cmrndzpm@reddit

I find this with call centres especially. I’ve worked in one pre-covid, we all barely worked when we were in the office so I can imagine if you’re on minimum wage working from home in a shit job like that you’re going to be even less productive.

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Dependent-Soup1635@reddit

They want to make people redundant but don’t want to spend the money- a great way of reducing the headcount, free of cost and without much legal back lash

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Familiar-Woodpecker5@reddit

Everyone I know (bar one who has a very high level job) that works from home openly admit that they take the piss.

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tnahrp@reddit

Some companies are doing this because they know people will quit and that's easier than doing redundancies or firing people. They don't care that the side effects is pissing everyone off.

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brizzle9293@reddit

People in the comments desperately defending sitting at home in their pyjamas all day pretending to work 😂‘I’m so much more productive when I WFH! Honestly!’

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JohnCasey3306@reddit

They may simply prefer to have people in the office -- it's their prerogative to run their business however they wish; just as it's your prerogative to quit and find a WFH role if you'd prefer.

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scalectrix@reddit

So that middle managers can justify the existence of their largely pointless or at least overinflated (in many senses) jobs.

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Mnosjetz_Bronsteijn@reddit

So they can fire people if they real ugly in person.

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AnonymousTimewaster@reddit

It's a power thing. They get a special little feeling when they see all their worker bees buzzing away. They don't get that when you're at home.

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Xaavuza@reddit

RTO has mever bothered me really it's the cost of commuting and tone deaf attitudes of managers to rising commute costs.

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Droopy_Bath@reddit

With all due respect commuting costs are nothing to do with your managers so I don't blame them.

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Xaavuza@reddit

No one said it was, or is their fault, it's more the fact thay we have recieved comments such as 'earn more then' directly from directors when colleagues have suggested that there is no business-critical reason to spend so much on rail costs for a 5 day week.

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Drazzan@reddit

It is when you were hired on a remote contract and that changes.

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Droopy_Bath@reddit

That I can understand but even then commuting costs should not come into it, that's a change of conditions.

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FudgeVillas@reddit

Nah it’s still not. Nobody has put a gun to your head and made you sign a new contract.

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markvauxhall@reddit

If you were hired on a remote contract and they are forcing you to come in you may well be able to argue constructive dismissal if you've been there over 2 years. IANL.

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ducksoupmilliband@reddit

I'm in IT and do about 50 hours a week (no overtime pay) most of my work is antisocial hours (late nights, weekends) and I've worked remotely on and off for decades. Thankfully I work for a company that treats us like grown ups and bases our performance on productivity. Can't speak for anyone else but the team I'm in all work bloody hard.

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littlehamster_@reddit

I think some of it is that the people making the decisions don't find working from home productive when they do it so they assume everyone is the same. In my experience the managers who thrive WFH also promote WFH in their teams, those that struggle to WFH or skive then stop their teams from doing it. I work in IT with a focus on a different team to my local office. If I go into the office I get literally nothing done because I spend all my time being asked to look at peoples computers for them and no amount of asking to raise a ticket seems to sink in. So I go in as rarely as possible and when I do go in I tend to keep headphones on anyway so there's no point in being there.

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RhubarbImmediate7007@reddit

The man reason my employer is pushing it, is we’re locked into very expensive property contracts for our empty buildings.

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Different_Level_7914@reddit

A lot of companies are seemingly using it as a natural way of letting people go without making them redundant. Lots of people have seen the benefits of working from home both financially and work/life benefits so are willing to leave and find employment elsewhere. Call them all in to the office permanently and many will leave or attempt to.

Becomes very more evident in workplaces where the higher performers or senior staff get relaxed versions of the must come into the office rule.

[-]

codeduck@reddit

Real Estate is expensive and hard to justify when it's empty.

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MobiusNaked@reddit

I suggest you check out the Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Act 2023.

[-]

platon29@reddit

It's purely to appease the landlord class and the bad managers who can't adapt to the obviously beneficial change in the working landscape.

[-]

TomatoChomper7@reddit

Micro-managers, building leases, and lazy people taking the piss when wfh.

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627UK@reddit

Wfh can be a pay rise for many - no commuting costs.

Return to office then takes away that pay rise

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627UK@reddit

If you're a "bum on a seat", management want to see that bum.

If your output can be measured, wfh is usually fine.

One of the problems with wfh is "who do I ask to do/fix ?". If you can ask the guy sitting next to you, you'll likely get the answer quicker.

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BusyBeeBridgette@reddit

Control.

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CuteMaterial8497@reddit

Alt delete?

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gaynorg@reddit

They want people to quit. Free downsizing.

[-]

Pedantichrist@reddit

Because the people who support it are in the office, and together, so they all think that everyone thinks that way.

[-]

Dull_Hawk9416@reddit

Studies have shown that less work is being done. So a lot of companies are starting to make staff come back to work. Also what is your job? Because anything related to customer service and dealing with the public shoukd 100% be office based.

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Quick_like_a_Bunny@reddit

The same reason they did it in America - $$$. No one pays rent on unoccupied office buildings

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WantsToDieBadly@reddit

its harder to micromanage staff from home

when they are in the office you can see who they talk to, when they go to the bathroom, what they do and the like

WFH its harder to 'patrol'. You know those managers who like to 'visit the office' or 'come down to see how things are' its not for you but them well they cant do that WFH

I know not all managers are like that but i think a huge aspect is simple control

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Rowebin@reddit

It's hard to politic from home, it's easier to blame people who aren't present.

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Acrobatic-Ad584@reddit

Control, or perceived lack of control

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fartinavacuumm@reddit

I can only speak from my experience, and it’s that staff take the piss and don’t actually do anything when wfh. Of course, not all will be like this, but the ones I know certainly are.

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Historical-Court6660@reddit

A lot of companies push for return-to-office not because the work requires it, but due to management preferences, office lease commitments, concerns about team culture or oversight, and the belief that in-person collaboration improves productivity.....even if many employees feel remote work is just as effective.

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gxb20@reddit

It’s a mixture of propaganda from commercial property landlords and managers justifying their jobs at home

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Connell95@reddit

It’s up to a company how they locate their staff and what working practices they use. It’s up to the staff if they want to work for them.

If you’re not prepared to go into the office once in a while, move to a job that doesn’t require it.

Personally I like meeting my colleagues and some things are a lot easier to do in person, so it’s not a big deal for me, but you have to decide for yourself.

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tcpukl@reddit

Same here. I've got a very flexible employer and choose hybrid myself.

It's about supply and demand. Giving the employee choice gets you the best staff.

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HugeElephantEars@reddit

My company has hired loads of people in cheaper countries and kept higher up / technical people in the UK.

3 times a week I trudge into the office in London and spend the day on effing GoogleMeet to people in the Southern Hempishere.

But we must be together! One team! Bla bla bla.

Oh and the owner / CEO fucked off to Monaco so he doesn't have to pay any of his billions in tax. And joins meetings from his sandboarding or skiing holidays.

I hate it.

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daddywookie@reddit

To get a bit deeper, the big problem is we live in a world where traveling an hour or more for work is often required. RTO is a far bigger problem when it involves losing an extra two hours to stressful commuting.

Why we have got into this situation is a question for more learned people than myself. I only know that working hybrid was far better than full time in office when a big commute was required, and working locally to home is the best.

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