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Greece to explore use of nuclear power in energy mix, PM says today at the "Nuclear Energy Summit" held in Paris. What do you think of Greece's current nuclear shift, in both energy and defense?

Posted by ClothesZestyclose814@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 81 comments

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foodforkitties@reddit

Great. Judging by how Fukushima 2011 went down, with Greece’s awful infrastructure facilities, seismic activity and untrustworthy record of operating any kind of facility, I wish all our neighbours good night and good luck. Also, who’s going to pay for it? And who will be using it? Under whose ownership? Barely 3 in 10 Greeks have a positive stance on nuclear energy btw.
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sangueblu03@reddit

Those 7 in 10 are dumb, to be honest. Nuclear is the future. I have full confidence we’ll be able to find a dozen people out of 10 million that are smart and dedicated enough to run a nuclear reactor.  Fukushima was an incredible outlier - it was a 60+ year old design that went online in 1971. The earthquakes didn’t damage it, and all safety systems operated as expected until the tsunami wave hit and some of the water cooling systems were taken offline. Tsunamis aren’t an issue in Greece, and the proposed plant could be put somewhere with limited earthquake effects + fresh water for cooling without being put next to the ocean.  A single nuclear reactor could provide 15-20% of all power for Greece. Two modern reactors + wind, solar, and tidal could easily cover 75% of power needs for the country, and dramatically drop the cost of power. 
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foodforkitties@reddit

>I have full confidence we’ll be able to find a dozen people out of 10 million that are smart and dedicated enough to run a nuclear reactor. As if a nuclear facility’s operation depends only on a dozen employees. That’s mad to say. And never mind that, how will the country pay for it? Why do you believe the energy produced will be used for the domestic market?
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sangueblu03@reddit

How many engineers, chemists, or shift managers do you think are needed to keep a plant running 24/7/365? It’s likely not more than 60. Then there’s the “regular” people, firefighters, and security. Quick estimates I can find say 600 people is the average for a mid-to-large single reactor, and about half of those are security.  The country will pay for it the way they pay for anything. With our taxes, over time, and partly financed. If we’re partnering with France on this, who arguably the leader in nuclear technology *and* working to build smaller, much more affordable pre-fab reactors - the cost will be in the single digit billions per reactor. Over the full lifespan of a reactor, that’s very cheap compared to fossil fuels. 
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foodforkitties@reddit

I’m not talking employees, I mean the infrastructure any facility depends on. Do you even live in Greece? If you do when was the last time you walked outside your villa... The houses, the hospitals, the schools are barely standing, people barely get through, and this is the time to think about funding a nuclear energy facility? That will quite obviously get a handful of people richer and the rest of us paying ridiculous energy bills. Why would the people want this? They should be hella dumb to want this.
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sangueblu03@reddit

I live in Thessaloniki for half the year. I had to visit the emergency at AHEPA just a few weeks ago. I have a home 5 minutes from Toumba. I pay 3x more for energy only in Greece than the US, and I live in one of the most expensive places in the country. I have family in another part of the US that gets partial power from a nuclear plant, and their electric is half the cost of mine. I’ve got some relevant perspective here.  > and this is the time to think about funding a nuclear energy facility? Yes, this is exactly the time. It can take a decade to build a reactor - and fossil fuel prices will only get more expensive in the coming years.  > That will quite obviously get a handful of people richer and the rest of us paying ridiculous energy bills. Why would the people want this?  Why would it make electricity more expensive? It will do the opposite. Nuclear power is the cheapest source of power over time, and most importantly it would reduce our overreliance on imported natural gas.  > They should be hella dumb to want this. I think if you actually look into it the opposite is true. Nuclear power and better/ ore storage for the renewables we already have are the only things that will reduce electricity costs. 
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foodforkitties@reddit

The reason why US has cheaper energy is much more complex than comparing cheap and expensive areas of residence. It’s a huge country with an abundance of resources and its own fossil fuel industry. Is nuclear energy not going into the European energy stock exchange? It is. We didn’t see any change for the better through renewables, why would we see it through nuclear? The free market will regulate towards maintaining surplus gains. We will not gain anything from being producers because the nuclear plant will be private owned and they’d much rather export the product. The contract our government will be offered to sign is most certainly going to be exploitative in nature, offering little to us as hosts. Storage for renewables is a more valid, pragmatical option to be discussing. A nuclear plant in Greece will not take 10 years, it would take a lot more considering the bureaucracy, lack of expertise, negative stance of citizens because of environmental concerns. Which are valid for many reasons, just because nuclear has barely made “green” status it doesn’t mean it’s not destroying environment in various ways. Record stays that there hasn’t been a single project in Greece that’s been completed without delays and inflated end cost. Oh, and mismanaged, either by Greeks or anyone else.
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sangueblu03@reddit

> Is nuclear energy not going into the European energy stock exchange? It is. We didn’t see any change for the better through renewables, why would we see it through nuclear? The free market will regulate towards maintaining surplus gains. We will not gain anything from being producers because the nuclear plant will be private owned and they’d much rather export the product. The contract our government will be offered to sign is most certainly going to be exploitative in nature, offering little to us as hosts. Storage for renewables is a more valid, pragmatical option to be discussing. We have plenty of renewables but we don’t store the excess energy we produce so at night or when there’s no wind we’re falling back on the *very* expensive natural gas. That’s why our energy is so expensive. Storage is part of the solution, but it’s only a small part. Natural gas as the baseline needs to go, and I don’t see you proposing anything that could replace it - you’re just picking the absolute worst case scenario for nuclear and presenting it as a fact. Yet you take the absolute best case for storage + renewables, and ignore that that doesn’t come close to solving the baseline issue.   > A nuclear plant in Greece will not take 10 years, it would take a lot more considering the bureaucracy, lack of expertise, negative stance of citizens because of environmental concerns. Which are valid for many reasons, just because nuclear has barely made “green” status it doesn’t mean it’s not destroying environment in various ways. Record stays that there hasn’t been a single project in Greece that’s been completed without delays and inflated end cost. Oh, and mismanaged, either by Greeks or anyone else. Delays, inflated cost, all of that happens everywhere, even China/Japan/Korea. It’s not a uniquely Greek thing. You know how people spoke about the Thessaloniki metro like it’s something emblematic of the Greek states failures? Those people couldn’t be bothered to spend 5 minutes googling to find out that the Thessaloniki metro was *a pretty average timeline for a metro of that scale* (outside China). 19 years (because the *actual* start date is 2006) is respectable for a metro with massive tunnels, multiple station redesigns, funding issues, and work stops for artifacts.  It is certainly worse in Greece because we’re a generally disorganized group who likes our handshake deals and don’t like contracts and documentation, but that’s changing too. The right partner is critical for this - and if the French are involved, I feel really confident about it. They’ve got nuclear infrastructure down to a science.
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foodforkitties@reddit

I cannot be the one to offer an alternative, I am neither expert nor politician. That said, I can still raise a case for concern over the idea. To be fair none of us can know how this project could play out, it can’t be compared to other countries’ examples and the benefits or losses cannot be calculated without evidence of what the deal is, we’re just discussing the idea of it. I won’t disagree, of course such things happen in many places, but that does not make me feel any safer, or able to trust that our government and institutions work for the peoples’ benefit and safety. They have time and again proven that they don’t, and take no blame for it. Even if I was pro-nuclear energy, I doubt I would want it built in this country. Not in order to avoid responsibility but in order to avoid potential disaster for many. We have a lot to fix before considering this.
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sangueblu03@reddit

One of the biggest issues for people is the rapidly increasing cost of living, and energy/fossil fuels are a huge part of that. We need to be acting now to build that future backbone - if we don’t and we just continue to argue about it people will be in much worse positions in a decade.  
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foodforkitties@reddit

Yes the cost of living is one of the major issues, but cost of energy is only one part of it. Greece, as most southern EU countries is not a big consumer of energy. On the contrary, many homes and facilities are or could become independent through renewables. Lots of other, more urgent and realistic issues we should be focusing on atm.
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sangueblu03@reddit

The constant abject negativity of Greeks will never surprise me - and it’s inevitably people who have little to no understanding of what they’re complaining about.  Everyone complains about fossil fuels and power being so because but have no alternative they can suggest. This is an actual alternative, and one that will bring down real electricity prices over time. Combined with wind, solar, and tidal you could have the majority of the country’s energy needs filled very cheaply *and* not be completely reliant on importing from third parties.  There’s a real quality of life improvement here for every Greek and people still complain. 
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makimakmak@reddit

Yes very good. Let's have Mr Karamanlis be the nuclear energy minister and build a plant near your city!
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sangueblu03@reddit

Would love one outside Thessaloniki. Could use the cheaper power. 
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ADRzs@reddit

\>The constant abject negativity of Greeks will never surprise me - and it’s inevitably people who have little to no understanding of what they’re complaining about.  Absolutely!!! You are so right. The average Greek is an incensant whiner, kvetcher and cry baby. These are people who are angry, spending their time in cafeterias and kvetching about anything. Nothing is ever any good for them. Then, they complain that are paid only $800 per month, while probably worth only half of that!!!
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EliRed@reddit

What does that mean? Hopefully not building a nuclear power plant in Greece, because it will explode within 6 months.
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ADRzs@reddit

Really? And how do you know this?? Typical Greek whiner and cry-baby!!
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NickProko@reddit

Mitsotakis sheep
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ADRzs@reddit

Yeah, I thought that a sensible reply was out of the question.
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loxagos_snake@reddit

"It's a shame and I'm ashamed, that you pose a security concern"
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burnedToast123@reddit

Greece has earthquakes every other day, combined with its impeccable organizing skills in many other public sectors (cough*trains*cough), it is a rather bad idea.
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sangueblu03@reddit

No, it’s a great idea. Earthquakes in Greece are pretty mild compared to Japan, and Japan has 15 active reactors and are planning to increase that to 30 by 2040. 
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needmorepizzza@reddit

Yeah, but on the other hand, we have wven biscuit factories go kaboom. I don't think we should be held onto the same standards as the Japanese.
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DropDeadGaming@reddit

big true hahahahah Holding us to the same standards as the Japanese people is actually pretty funny
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Oxcuridaz@reddit

I agree with you. But trains are managed by italian company. Greece sold most of the public companies thanks to Europe
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foodforkitties@reddit

You think the nuclear facilities will be state owned? Of course not.
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sangueblu03@reddit

Even better - let the French own them and employ Greeks. They’re the experts, and we can learn quite a lot from them.
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ADRzs@reddit

This is unlikely to happen, and even if it can happen, it is not in Greece's interest. Most likely, these reactors will be controlled and owned by DEI. It makes absolutely no sense for Greece to have multiple energy companies, some owned by other concerns
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ADRzs@reddit

Yes, this is true. In fact, the Greek state does not own the state property. This is managed by a committee that is answerable to the troika and this will continue until 2067
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ADRzs@reddit

I disagree. There are more earthquake prone areas in the world with nuclear power and the current reactors are far, far safer than their early versions and have provisions for the strongest earthquakes. Despite the typical Greek penchant for speaking ill of the organizing abilities of the civil service, the Greek one is on par with many others and even exceeds others. In addition, nuclear energy in Greece will not be a public concern since the Greek state does not own even DEI
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DropDeadGaming@reddit

People will say nuclear is dangerous and shit, and while I mostly don't agree, I have to say in the case of greece nuclear power would definitely be dangerous. These people can't maintain anything. I know because I live here. I know it may sound like hyperbole, but we live here assuming that everything might collapse in the next moment. "We live by chance/happenstance"(not sure which one sounds more correct in english, it means we're lucky to live essentially) is literally a moto used in marches and shit.
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NoTackle718@reddit

Yeah sure, what could go wrong with Greek authorities handling something that could kill us all...
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Ujemegaz@reddit

Yeah, it was shovking hearing that EU is going nuclear now, but it makes sense. The amount of bombs pounding Ukraine and Iran doesn't make a difference for the envirinment, so why not invest on uranium. 
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Alexander459FTW@reddit

Lol . Are you implying that nuclear energy has a considerate negative impact on the environment? It literally has the least emissions per kWh produced, takes the least space, and has one of the highest if not the highest capacity factor.
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fragmuffin91@reddit

Solar has less and requires less space as it can be built on, well, built environments and agri surfaces (actual synergies with grazing land) and those where a NP cannot be built (mountains)
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Alexander459FTW@reddit

>Solar has less Solar doesn't have fewer emissions per kWh produced. Nuclear has 5 g/kWh while solar has around 30-35 g/kWh. >and requires less space as it can be built on Wrong again. You are forgetting about something called energy density. The energy density of nuclear is so damn high, while also possessing a really high capacity factor, ensuring that it needs minimal space. Nuclear takes the first place in terms of space efficiency and it is not even a contest. >and those where a NP cannot be built (mountains) The amount of NPPs you need to supply a country is so low, that space has never been a concern. Germany, literally the biggest industry in the EU, only needs 11 NPPs equivalent to the Barakah Nuclear Power Plant.
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Ujemegaz@reddit

>Are you implying that nuclear energy has a considerate negative impact on the environment? Chernobil surely had the highest emissions after exploding. It is not about normal operation. What happens when the depleted uranium has to be discarded.
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CypriotGreek@reddit

Not using nuclear energy because of Chernobyl and Soviet incompetence is like banning airplanes because of 9/11. Coal mining and fossil fuel plants have caused far more deaths and environmental damage over time, yet nobody talks about banning them entirely. If we’re being serious about risk, nuclear isn’t the obvious villain people make it out to be.
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ADRzs@reddit

A nuclear plant can store depleted uranium rods for a hundred years or more; and depleted uranium rods can be reprocessed and utilized by fast breeder reactors. Chernobyl has been an early soviet reactor that lacked a containment dome. There is simply not a possibility of this design ever being replicated now
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sangueblu03@reddit

Fossil fuels emit more radiation that nuclear energy. Coal alone emits 100x more radiation *into the atmosphere* than nuclear. Spent uranium can be contained, coal ash is harder to contain and is rarely actually contained.  Also, carbon emissions from fossil fuels are significantly higher than nuclear overall. Nuclear is a much better option than burning any type of fossil fuel. 
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ADRzs@reddit

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Currently, we have enough Uranium for 100 years (most of the deposits are in Australia) , but, after the exhaustion of Uranium, we can fall back to Thorium, for which there are abundant supplies. The best solution is to create "breeder reactors", as the Chinese are doing
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fragmuffin91@reddit

Literally u have nothing but free and abundant sun, cheapest and quickest energy out there. But yeah, promise them expensive and decades long to build nuclear.
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Jazzlike-Moose3123@reddit

If you get nuclear weapons that means we will get nuclear weapons. Not a good idea. Its okay for energy though. But i think both countries and balkans in general dont have the right mindset to operate a nuclear power facility. It would be like homer from simpsons doing things. I think they are building like 2 nuclear power plants in Turkey right now. I am worried how that would turn out in the next decades. People just want perks of things without having any negatives. You want energy? its either fossil fuels which are dirty, green energy which is expensive or nuclear energy which may go boom.
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CypriotGreek@reddit

Nuclear power is probably the only realistic way Greece could seriously stabilize its energy situation. We’ve spent years pouring money into so-called renewable projects, but those alone can’t reliably cover base load demand. If Greece actually wants long-term energy independence, especially from external suppliers, nuclear has to be part of the mix. Even many countries that pushed aggressive “green only” policies are slowly realizing that wind and solar can’t do everything on their own. At some point, Europe will have to admit that the bet against nuclear was shortsighted and that nuclear power is necessary for real energy security.
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Stalaagh@reddit

Why is everyone on the nuclear energy hype train? What happened to renewable energy? Isn’t that better, especially for the environment? And also, since most European leaders claim that we live in dangerous times, or we are at war with Russia or whatever, wouldn’t that make any potential nuclear power plants vulnerable to sabotage?
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ADRzs@reddit

\>Why is everyone on the nuclear energy hype train? What happened to renewable energy? Isn’t that better, especially for the environment?  Renewable is only an assistive energy generation proposition. What happens when the sun is down and there is no wind? Does the country come to a stand still? Renewables will part of the mix but, on their own, they cannot carry a modern state.
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Unusual_Detective420@reddit

Sun and Wind down in the whole country at the same time ? No water in rivers and lakes as well ? Happens every second weekend.
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Excellent_Jeweler_43@reddit

Renewable energy is not reliable enough for industrial purposes. For example if you have a manufacturing facility running 24/7 you cannot risk it being powered only by wind or solar. It is great to have wind and solar in the mix and I am sure we will invest even more in it going forward, but you need a reliable source if you want to go completely fossil free and nuclear is the only viable option.
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foodforkitties@reddit

Absolutely. But I guess they figured since we’ll be looking to find more uranium for the weapons, why not produce some energy too while we’re at it...helps people get used to the idea.
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Sad_Amphibian_2311@reddit

Happy to hear that Greece has apparently found an extremely large amount of unused tax money. Sad to hear they want to throw it at the least profitable energy source.
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mskomek@reddit

I see this as a big fraud opportunity
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lzrs2@reddit

There is no nuclear shift, only talk on a podium. Wake me up when they actually take any concrete step - like actually planning for it , picking out locations, budgeting, procuring nuclear fuel etc.
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LaFleur90@reddit

We can only hope. But since most of our politicians are cucks, they will cave to the eco-terrorists' whinning.
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TriaPoulakiaKathodan@reddit

A lot of environmentalists are pro nuclear now. The main concern I would have is for our maintenance capabilities, especially since our land is pretty demanding of high security when it comes to nuclear.
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ADRzs@reddit

Actually, running and maintaining the nuclear stations will require a lot of expertise, but it will provide good employment to a number of people who would be eager to get this expertise
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wubladuba@reddit

Incredibly dumb. A huge investment that will take decades to actually materialise. I don’t understand this new push when the price of renewables is decreasing. I’m not opposed to nuclear being in the energy mix but small modular reactors are a new unproven technology at a large scale. Why must we be perpetually stuck in the 20th century?
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_brkt_@reddit

Honestly, I hope more nuclear power makes it to Greece and the rest of the Balkans. At least nuclear has a meaningful chance of getting Balkan countries off coal *while* being more energy self-sufficient, unlike imported LNG/Gas. Seems to be working well in Bulgaria / Slovenia / Romania? Honestly, anything that helps get the Balkans off coal power is a huge win. Moving from coal to importing LNG/Gas is a quick solution but problematic in the context of geopolitics and energy sovereignty, as demonstrated over and over in recent years. Nuclear isn't perfect but from a pragmatic perspective its one of the best options. The open strip mining of Lignite has destroyed huge sections of land in Greece (Amyntai, Ptolmaida/Kardia, Megalopoli), Serbia(Kolubara, Kostolac), Kosovo (Kosova A and B), N. Macedonia (REK Bitola, REK Oslomej), BiH (Banovići, Djurdjevik, Ugljevnik, Šikulje), Bulgaria (TPP Bobov Dol, TPP Galabovo/Marica-Iztok). If you take a look on Google Earth, you will see that open-pit mining has eaten up entire towns in the Balkans. Living in Canada, I can confidently say: just because you have a Nuclear power plant, doesn't mean jack shit for defense purposes. Our nuclear defense/arms industry is non-existant, but at least we do manufacture our own radioisotopes for medicine. So I doubt Greece would get any defence benefit from reactors, honestly. Last point: these next gen reactors are supposed to be modular and thus easy to commission / run / maintain, so I would imagine it may help reduce energy costs compared to the current situation. Summary: Nuclear power is probably a good shift; lets Greece decommission coal power, reduces Greek dependence off gas imports, stable energy source.
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SadlyNotPro@reddit

Greece is getting nuclear defense from an agreement with France. Energy generation would be a net positive for sure, just like you said.
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_brkt_@reddit

Ah I was under the impression the nuclear defense question was regarding nuclear power. Thank you for the correction.
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SadlyNotPro@reddit

I've seen that in other comments too, maybe i missed something. But from the last week or so, only relevant "nuclear defense" thing I've read about was relating to France taking us under their "nuclear umbrella". Figured I'd comment on the most thorough comment in here.
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Temporary_County1838@reddit

As a Türk if Greeks have nukes we definetly need Nukes.
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OhWellImRightAgain@reddit

Fuck nuclear, build more pumped hydro fro storage so that you stop wasting solar / wind is what I think
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azyrr@reddit

Fuck hydro, go nuclear guys. We have tons of hydro and it does nothing but fuck up the environment over time. Its insanely bad - look it up.
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_brkt_@reddit

Hydro can work, and very well, but not everywhere is ideal. As for your claim, most of the environmental effects are from the immediate creation/flooding of the reservoir, as things rot in the basin and release methane/co2. Obviously I am not speaking of the local impact like on plant and wildlife, that would be ongoing. As for politicians and technocrats building dams in environmentally sensitive areas and then misusing delicate shared water resources, yeah well that one is... harder to solve.
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azyrr@reddit

I’m talking about erosion and how a huge reservoir of water changes the climate in the area. It fucks up valleys, where they are ideally built, not to mention downstream habitats. Just go nuclear, its a thousand times better and makes so much more sense.
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tkchrist@reddit

I second that, a lot if people including politicians do not ubderstand how crucial and complicated water cycle is.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Nuclear is green energy, if you can safely operate it it's the perfect source of energy.
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OhWellImRightAgain@reddit

It's not. It's still more expensive than wind + pumped hydro as storage. MUCH more expensive in Greece's case, which has an insane amount of spots with S tier Wind > electricity conversion potential.
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sangueblu03@reddit

Nuclear plants have a lifespan about 3x longer than wind farms. Once you’re finished the first rebuild of the wind farm, nuclear is cheaper. It only gets cheaper over time.  Wind is great and should also be invested in, but nuclear is needed as the backbone. Nuclear power is the future, and we’re a long ways away from the old tech used in places like Ukraine and Japan that people are thinking about when they hear nuclear power. 
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OhWellImRightAgain@reddit

The price costs are estimated over a long period of time, usually like 100 years. Nuclear is just more expensive, and the main problem is the money will leave Greece, unlike investment in renewables + pumped hydro, most of which stays in Greece.
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sangueblu03@reddit

The life span of a reactor is traditionally ~60-75 years, but with new technology could be longer. The plant pays for itself within 20 years. Operating costs past that are extremely low.  Renewables is great, and should be invested in, but are not a baseline. Nuclear is the baseline.  Pumped hydro is significantly worse for the environment and has higher carbon emissions.  Since we have so many mountains, though, it could absolutely be a realistic addition - but not something to use instead of nuclear. 
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PVanchurov@reddit

Honestly, if I were a Greek prime minister I'd call up my good friends the Bulgarians who are currently working on two reactors at Kozloduy and are expected to make the investment decision later this year and see if I can get in on it.
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perastikoss@reddit

Something tells me that even if nuclear power was adopted, the energy price would either remain high or barely drop at all
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OmadaPyravlos@reddit

Of course, it's by design
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Suitable-Decision-26@reddit

Nuclear in defense? What do you mean?
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SadlyNotPro@reddit

If we want to cut our reliance on fossil fuels, nuclear is the only viable option. Smaller, modular reactors are safer and more efficient. We'll need to coordinate with France and Germany for the know-how, but it would be safe. There's safeguards for earthquakes. Japan only had issues with the very old reactors, the new ones are much safer.
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Crazylawyer80@reddit

It will probably go like [this.](https://youtu.be/sJw1FSLqORI?si=TWlF2Yq_lkIDaHdZ)
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120000milespa@reddit

It was only 10 years ago, the Greeks were claiming to be a massive investment opportunity for solar power in Europe. This was conveniently at the same time they were in the toilet financially and were desperate to grift off someone new. Nothing much happened. This sounds like the same. A grift to extract cash out of the landowners, developers and construction companies.
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TiredPandastic@reddit

I don't trust Greece to run its bloody trains, you think I trust Greece to run nuclear stations? We're a joke. I'm for nuclear power but I just don't trust Greece to manage one.
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GNick2006@reddit

Great, now we will be the ones to blame for the new "nUCleaR iS dANgerOuS" crowd once the reactors inevitably explode.
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hairshampoo12@reddit

chill he is talking about small modular nuclear power
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