AOPA Brasher Warning Advice
Posted by BeaconSlash@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 34 comments
Pretty simple question... Does AOPA have any standard guidance or advice for pilots that receive a pilot deviation/Brasher warning from ATC (i.e., number to call)?
Bhawks680@reddit
I’ve only once received a brasher warning… and knew I was not at fault, or at the very least, not the only one at fault. ATC issued me an altitude change, I complied and responded accordingly. Shortly after I was asked what altitude I was at and after responding, was given the possible pilot deviation and phone number. Called after landing and the controller and I determined that there was confusion between my call sign and flight number and another company aircraft with a similar flight number (small freight company). It was a perfectly friendly conversation where both parties acknowledged a confusion and understanding of how a small mistake happened on their part, of which I could have prevented or clarified. NASA report was filed on my end, and whatever ATC reports on their end. Friendly conversation with a MKE approach controller that led both of us to evaluate safety and possible ways to prevent something similar happening in the future. That’s the ultimate goal, and most controllers aren’t out there to “get” pilots when mistakes happen.
Another time, I forgot to cancel an IFR flight plan. It was early in my career, high stress single pilot landing in winter weather conditions, got distracted with unloading cargo and getting the plane squared away. I got a call a half hour after landing with an IRATE controller, informing me that an RJ had to declare minimum fuel and get priority handling due to my failure to cancel my flight plan. 100% my fault, and yet… the controller used it as an opportunity to educate and inform me of how a small mistake can affect the whole system. Even in this instance, where I was absolutely in the wrong, the controller chose not to escalate the situation, and was understanding after I explained my side and what led to my mistake. We ended the conversation with a friendly handshake over the phone and an offer to meet for a beer. (Didn’t happen but woulda been more than up for it)
Morale of the story… mistakes happen. Owning up to them and everyone learning from them is the ultimate goal of aviation, and things like NASA reports, ASAP reports, or whatever your facet of aviation uses to analyze safety, are ultimately there to make us all better. Most controllers aren’t out there to get us busted. They’d love to understand “what happened” more than they’d love to ruin a pilot’s career. Mistakes happen, make the call, talk honestly and cordially, especially if you did in fact make a mistake. You will almost always be greeted with understand and education on both ends. There are definitely outliers and exceptions to that, but in general, mistakes happen and are okay, as long as we don’t have gross negligence, which really should be called out and corrected.
kkcfi@reddit
Call and be respectful. The FAA compliance philosophy is a good one and reduces paperwork as long as the violation was not egregious and willful. Also file an ASRS report, and as others have said be respectful and seek to understand what happened.
In most cases, you'll first be talking to a controller(tower / approach / TRACON etc.) somewhere not the FAA. Don't be 1NR busting Bravos and arguing about it on frequency.
theonlyski@reddit
The purpose of the call is to identify the PIC and tell them the nature of the possible pilot deviation. They'll ask your name, certificate number and phone number and tell you what they saw that triggered the Brasher.
You should call and give them the information, because some unlucky inspector at the FSDO is gonna get the report anyways and they'll probably be less grumpy than they would be if they had to spend hours tracking you down. Also keep in mind, the phone calls are almost always recorded and the inspector gets that too (along with the radar and ATC audio data).
Flyinghud@reddit
Taking an aviation law class right now, professor is a former Air Force JAG with some aviation law experience. He advises not calling, but if you do call make sure you do not identify yourself. Most of the time they don’t know who was flying the plane and if they cannot figure out who was flying it will most likely become a stale complaint after 6 months and they cannot bring anything.
mkosmo@reddit
Many aviation law professors will spout the same nonsense about not handing an inspector your physical certificate... so keep that in mind.
Flyinghud@reddit
He said that we have to (cause it’s the law), but to make sure you make a big stink if they try to walk away with it.
flyingron@reddit
He's full of shiat. They will not walk away with it and even if they did, it's not a voluntary surrender. The FAA requires that to be made in writing.
mkosmo@reddit
And that's very codified. It's not just policy.
GayRonSwanson@reddit
As it turns out, this is the exact advice advice that AOPA attorneys provide (don’t call).
hatdude@reddit
If you don’t call and provide information, the FAA will go to the registered owner of the aircraft and ask who was flying. If the owner doesn’t tell them then they’ll likely get the deviation since the owner operates the aircraft under the 14 CFR 1.1 definition of operate.
There’s an ntsb appeal of such a deviation against a registered owner but I’m struggling to find it at the moment.
theonlyski@reddit
Sure, you could do that and hope that it goes away... or you could learn from the incident and make things safer. A serious majority of deviations are handled by a phone counseling.
If you bone something up bad enough, the agency has the means to track you down and not showing a willingness and ability to participate in the compliance program means there's no alternative to an enforcement action. Even if it's stale, it'll show up on your record for the next inspector to see.
BeaconSlash@reddit (OP)
Ok, I thought I heard somewhere AOPA said don't call if given a brasher warning.
theonlyski@reddit
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/august/pilot/turbine-legal-prepare-for-the-unexpected
They don't say not to call, they say to be careful about when you call and have a plan. I don't particularly agree with that, but I am not a lawyer. I was an inspector at a FSDO though, so I am fairly familiar with what happens once it makes it to their desk.
Basically the calls just ask for the PICs information, giving your name, certificate number and phone number aren't exactly divulging your defense strategy. ATC is just writing it on the MOR and sending it down the pipe. Most of the time the controller will say what the *possible* pilot deviation was regarding, you can simply say ok, thank you and end the conversation, then consult your legal team with that intel, otherwise they may be flying blind trying to figure out what you *may have done* wrong to begin with.
GayRonSwanson@reddit
When I spoke with AOPA’s attorneys after getting a brasher warning, they advised me to not call and said that generally they recommend not calling.
I ended up disregarding that advice, called anyway, and sorted it out with a friendly and helpful inspector without any action.
BeaconSlash@reddit (OP)
Much appreciated.
LookoutBel0w@reddit
Never don’t call IMO
Canon40@reddit
Read this book: https://a.co/d/0dp2XUp6
Do not call. Comply with ATC instructions while you are still ‘air traffic’. Once on the ground, you are no longer air traffic. Park your airplane and leave the airport without buying anything.
Do not call the number. You have a 5th amendment right to remain silent, yes, even when airplanes are involved. Use your right.
Fair_Ad_4818@reddit
This. Literally the advice from ASA. Some, although not all, of what Canon40 said is just repeating said direction. I’ve also read the book. The people who wrote it are practicing, and they’ve given lots of examples of their clients using said advice and having it work out.
There are good arguments for not calling. But I’ll say that’s a lawyer’s strategy to employ and probably not a solo pilot’s strategy.
The book advocates the best answer is to avoid being ID’ed. Aka, leaving without buying (more said about this in the book), then talking to your lawyer and making a plan of attack. Of which, not calling could be the answer depending on the circumstances. This might translate to your lawyer reaching out to show a willingness of compliance was made. Blah blah blah, just one example.
Simply put OP, just talk to your lawyer… they’re much better at safeguarding your piece of plastic than you are.
There’s a lot of misinformation in these comments. I recommend picking up this book so you can actually read from a lawyers writing, not reddit comments…
They explain how the legal system works administratively, how the appeals process works, what happens on the FAA’s end whenever you do something wrong, relevant court cases on the matter, etc. Plus all the reasoning being their recommendations.
Flyinghud@reddit
You don’t have to say anything, but not because of the 5th amendment. The FARs are administrative law not criminal. 5th amendment only offers protection against self-incrimination.
theonlyski@reddit
"i WaS TRAVeliNG"
R5Jockey@reddit
Terrible advice.
No-Cell-8208@reddit
AOPA's advise is going to be to purchase their legal plan.
LostPilot517@reddit
Talk to AOPA/ Union Representative.
Definitely call them back at the number given, be cooperative, but don't offer up incriminating stories, just give basic required facts; name certificate number, as little information as possible to be cooperative, but be advised it is all recorded and may be used against you.
Don't give a full synopsis, recount, self incriminating recap of events. Just facts.
File NASA ASRA/ASAP report.
Key_Slide_7302@reddit
First, file an ASAP. Afterwards, call AOPA and ask them. Each case is different.
otterbarks@reddit
You have 10 days to file an ASRS report. That should not be the very first thing on your list.
BeaconSlash@reddit (OP)
Ok, so AOPA recommends calling them for advice before calling the facility? Not like a blanket "don't call ATC if they give you a number" kind of thing?
Key_Slide_7302@reddit
You could call AOPA before or after calling the number given. Ideally call AOPA afterwards so you know exactly why you were given the Brasher warning.
If you’re associated with a flight school, have your chief pilot or safety rep present for the phone call.
theonlyski@reddit
ASRS =/= ASAP
Key_Slide_7302@reddit
Fixed.
One is internal, the other is not.
citpilot1@reddit
You can choose what you want to say or don’t say. Show good faith and answer the questions as you see fit, be polite, positive. Show humility if you know you are totally in the wrong. As most have said, they are just filling out the blocks and moving it along. My time I called it was like another’s pilots experience. They were accusing me of doing one thing and I came back with the facts from my end. Pulled some tapes and radar tracks. Flipped the script and no violations existed, we all moved on.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
I'd call especially if you don't think you were at fault. I called SoCal after they thought I messed up but in fact it was their own screw up, she thanked me and we all moved on
hawker1172@reddit
I personally would call, provide the required info, and then leave the conversation at that. Be friendly, understanding without self incriminating.
theonlyski@reddit
This is the way.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Pretty simple question... Does AOPA have any standard guidance or advice for pilots that receive a pilot deviation/Brasher warning from ATC (i.e., number to call)?
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