Porsche Sued Over Sale of ‘New’ 911 GT3 Allegedly Used for Mechanic Training. The lawsuit claims that the $280,000 car was used for a year by novice mechanics who disassembled it and didn’t put it back together properly.
Posted by cofango@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 176 comments
Ok_Aspect_8473@reddit
crazy
BrainPurple7931@reddit
Looks so sick if u ask me .
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
You read stories like this from time to time, and I always wonder why a manufacturer doesn’t just eat the mistake, turn it into an amazing opportunity for great publicity and show up at the dudes house with a brand new GT3 in exchange for the one he bought. Like, “hey we’re sorry that this happened. It was a mistake by multiple entities in the chain that should have never been able to happen. Here’s a new one in exchange for no additional cost, and we threw in a few vouchers for Porsche driving experiences to make up for it”. Done deal. Guy would go back to being a raving fan of the brand, they’d get every automobile outlet writing stories absolutely drowning them in praise about what they did and everything would come out as a win. They’re likely going to pay more in legal fees than it would cost to just replace this man’s car.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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jspeed04@reddit
This is so unfortunate to me. About 12-15 years ago, my friend (coincidentally who owns a Porsche today) went to a Porsche dealer in a high sales, high foot traffic store (for context, this dealer had a 918 Spyder) area. He was interested in a test driving a Cayenne. The salesman said, “no problem, let’s do it” and took us out in a Cayenne Turbo where the salesman demonstrated the performance of the car, and by that I mean throwing that fucking bitch around like a ragdoll. I’d ask you to remember that this is before the EV era where torque and speed is a commodity. I was absolutely floored by the speed, torque, agility and sound that a vehicle that vehicle made. It was so fast, so brutal, so exhilarating.
The salesman pulls over on the shoulder of the road, gets out and tells my friend and I, two broke bitch boys who very obviously couldn’t afford this vehicle, that it was our turn. My friend gets behind the wheel, and is fairly timid with the car which made perfect sense from my perspective because we couldn’t afford that shit. But having just felt the absolute terror that this vehicle could induce, I knew it was capable of way more. The salesman tells him, “drive the fucking car, man!” (I’m paraphrasing) but he tells him to push the car like it’s meant to be pushed.
I will never, ever forget this experience. It’s why, even though I drive an EV today and will never go back to a daily ICE*, that Porsche is the single exception to that rule and I’d drive a 911 all day, any day. My memory of Porsche, and BMW, to a lesser extent, was that they understood that while two kids might not be able to afford their car today, they (Porsche) still want to create an impression on them so that when they get to a position in life where they can, Porsche is what they’ll remember to. The salesman that we drove with understood the assignment, and like I said, my friend AND his dad are now Porsche owners and swear by them.
It’s a shame that the brand has moved on from what once made them great, something that even broke ass kids like us could aspire to.
Plbn_015@reddit
If I were the salesman I would probably also take every opportunity for a 'test ride showing the capabilities to a potential future customer' - just so I can ride it 😂
cyclic_rival@reddit
Had the opportunity to ride along in a GT3 RS at an autocross event.
The experience was purely exhilarating, I was not expecting the acceleration after coming from my NA and my mind had a fun time catching up to what was going on the entire time. Truly a rollercoaster, the driver was great and really pushing it but still fully in control. If I could ever afford one but I agree with you, of I ever got the opportunity I would jump on it in a heartbeat.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
Porsche corporate AFAIK gave its dealerships the unambiguous instruction to snuff out even the slightest hint of snobbery.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
Maybe that’s the case today, but that shine starts to fade if you get enough of these kinds of stories out to the public.
Growing up in the 80s/90s Ferrari was the pinnacle. I think there have been enough stories about Ferrari treating their owners poorly that they’ve lost some of that aspirational desirability (some of which was picked up by brands like Porsche). How they treated Chris Harris for being honest about their cars. The cancelled LaFer Aperta order because the owner drove his standard LaFer through an In N Out and posted it on instagram, etc. Those sorts of things turned me from an aspirational Ferrari owner, into someone who would look at other places to spend their half a mil, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. The image that brought Porsche their current reputation and success can be squandered just as easy (if not easier).
W0666007@reddit
Your experience is not indicative of how Ferrari is doing as a brand. They've always been up their own ass and Jay Leno famously doesn't own any because of it. They are still absolutely killing it.
nondescriptzombie@reddit
Automobili Lamborghini only exists because old man Ferruccio went to Enzo and told him he needed to make his cars more appropriate for the road and Enzo laughed him out of his office.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
It was even worse - Lamborghini kept burning his clutches until he had one of his engineers fix it, he proposed said fix to Enzo and got hounded out.
Ferrari's infamous antics also spawned the Ford GT40.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
History changing arrogance and ego.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
Bingo!
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
Of course they’re doing well. Just like Rolex, they’ve created an artificial scarcity market which allows them to select their buyers and make people hungry for something that can’t have unless they’re selected by the manufacturer/AD. While that will solve certain reputational issues to a point, it also opens the door for competitors to build market share that otherwise would not have been available to them. We are in a time of unprecedented upper crust spending. Finding buyers for high end items isn’t difficult when many of the people looking to purchase them are doing it out of a desire for perceived status obtained by owning said items, and those items can often be turned around and sold for more than they were priced at as new.
MicrowavedPlatypus@reddit
I recently bought a lemon from Porsche and the settlement value was more than my purchase price. No arguing and it took roughly 2 weeks.
nondescriptzombie@reddit
At any customer-facing job I've held in the last two decades, the hardest and fastest rule was that if someone mentions they're involving their lawyer EVERYTHING SHUTS DOWN.
"Oh? You are? Here's my corporate office number, we're done here until you give them a call. Please leave the building voluntarily or will will have you trespassed and escorted out."
aprtur@reddit
Same here for my experience in auto service. Litigation mentioned? Don't say another word and let legal handle it. This is a nuance that many people don't understand, along with the art of "sweet talking" a deal. You can occasionally have some amazing things happen when you work up the ladder rather than trying to bypass it. Not to say that bad people/companies that require litigation aren't out there, but overreacting off the bat is usually not a recipe for an outstanding experience.
gaius49@reddit
Porsche used to handle problems like this by doing stuff like replacing the car in a matter of days with delivery to your house. That level of customer care and support was a big part of how they built their brand. Historically, old Porsche would never have let this go to litigation. The customer would have been made whole, and compensated for the hassle.
m1a2c2kali@reddit
Really I’ve found that usually when you “get up there” those companies are muuuch more willing to work with you on these things to retain you. It’s the more run of the mill companies that give less of a fuck.
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Popular_Course3885@reddit
Because the car was purchased from a dealer, not directly from Porsche, so this really doesn't involve Porsche directly. The dealership that sold the car is the one with the legal issues, and Porsche isn't just going to step into the dealer's position and assume any of that exposure.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
I agree that it’s the dealer who likely created the problem, but the dealers actions have dragged them into the problem. I feel like Porsche would want to step in and handle the matter because of what it says in the headline. “Porsche sued…..”. The way the dealer has handled the situation so far has led to this being a story far longer than it had any right to be. They took back the car but left the guy with literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of sales tax and finance charges, and no car. This is why I said in previous comments that it would be very easy for the parent company to step in, make it right and come out smelling like a rose, and then punish the dealer by making them pay you back for every penny and warn them not to make a mistake like this again, end of story.
Gorgenapper@reddit
It felt like I was reading a story about a Kia dealership, except it wasn't. I'd expect this from Kia or or Hyundai, but Porsche or any other luxury dealers should be very careful to protect their reputation.
More to your point, they're going to pay hundreds of thousands in legal fees and after they lose the case, they will be on the hook for more. The customer has irrefutable proof, no way he is going to lose, whoever on the dealership/Porsche side decided that they were going to fight an unwinnable battle is a dumbass.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
This is the sort of stuff I'd expect from Porsche dealerships in Europe - apparently they're some of the friendliest here without even any shred of snobbery (hi Ferrari!).
In America, not so much.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
I’d say a lot of it has to do with the difference in what you’re obligated to do. Europe has a lot of consumer protection laws, and the US has rampant and unchecked capitalism and greed.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
eh this is compared to Merc/BMW/Audi dealerships on the same continent with the same laws
JALbert@reddit
There's a big difference between giving away a $30k car and a $300k car.
Also, what goodwill do you need to build when every GT3 you make sells out instantly at a markup?
Last, why would Porsche corporate bail out a shady dealer for their fuck up?
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
It’s not really that big of a difference on the scale that a manufacturer like Porsche (or their parent VW) operates at. And you aren’t even really taking a loss on a full car, but rather the difference between a ‘22 and a ‘25 or ‘26.
There is a difference between goodwill because it’s needed to sell product, and goodwill because it’s the right thing to do for one of, if not THE single most loyal customer base of almost any manufactured product in the world let alone automobiles. While they have no problem selling all the units they’re willing to produce, it’s bad business to open the door to customer exodus or competition because you’re arrogant about your own success.
Porsche should do an internal investigation (which would be much cheaper in both cash and reputation than a legal one) and should they find that they were not at fault or liable for any wrongdoing (which they most likely aren’t and I’m not stating that Porsche AG was) they absolutely bill the dealer for every penny and then some that it cost for them to make it right. This can be done by literally sending them a bill, taking away allocations for vehicles and parts or any number of ways that the dealership wouldn’t have much in the way of arguing or disputing.
Famous-Risk-815@reddit
Do you have any idea how the OEM-Dealer relationship works/is structured? You can’t just take away allocations or bill a dealer for something like that. That’s not how this stuff works.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
As a matter of fact that’s almost exactly how that works. Generally based on location, sales performance, and general favorability a manufacturer tells the dealer how many slots they are being allocated for vehicles and often times model by model. Let’s just say that this particular dealer has been allocated 10 GT3s in the previous year (I have no idea about this particular dealers allocation numbers). Porsche can absolutely tell this dealer that this year they’re only getting 8 for example, or whatever number they choose to allocate to them. As far as on the parts side most dealerships have a running debit/credit ledger with the manufacturer that is balanced monthly or quarterly. It would be very easy for Porsche to add a sum to that statement until they were made right on the balance. Possibly even on the warranty labor ledger because if the title was market from the manufacturer “Not For Sale” then it’s likely the car was never a part of allocation in the first place as was meant as a training tool and likely billed to the parts or service department.
The manufacturer is under no more obligation to give the dealer anything than the dealer was to not sell a car that was given to the dealer with a window sticker (which is a legal document) from the manufacturer that states that this vehicle is “Not For Sale”.
Captain_Mazhar@reddit
If I was the manufacturer, I would put a punishment clause in there as well, like if the dealer sold a NfS vehicle and got caught out on it, their next build allocation would go to making the customer whole, and bumping the next customer to the next allocation and making the dealer explain to the entire buy queue why their delivery dates just got bumped.
JALbert@reddit
To be clear, if you're saying they should have kept his money for the original GT3 and given him a new one, I agree. I had interpreted this as giving him a GT3 in the current state of things, where his money for the car had already been refunded.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
No, the man PAID for a GT3. From everything I gathered from the story he doesn’t seem to be attempting to unwind a deal on a car he decided he didn’t want. He discovered that a car he paid nearly $300k for was not as represented and was not supposed to even be sold to the public. I’m pretty sure if they contacted him and said they’ll exchange the car in his possession for a brand new one fresh from the factory, they’ll pay off his current loan and finance a new loan for the amount of the outstanding balance at the remaining term of the current loan, the man would probably jump out of his shoes with excitement. It would probably end up costing Porsche even less in real world dollars because I’m totally guessing here but he probably paid some form of ADM on the car he currently has and Porsche could just do the deal at sticker.
I guess in the grand scheme this is why I find this so odd because Porsche doesn’t really have to very much financially to get a boatload of amazingly positive publicity.
JALbert@reddit
The dealer bought the car back, they just didn't pay his finance charges and sales tax.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
And he still has the car because he wasn’t happy settling for a buyback minus the finance charges and sales tax, which on a $300k car is over $30k in tax alone. I don’t blame him for not being happy with that deal. More court, more litigation, more lawyers, more news. Just seems silly when ~$50k could have made it all go away and either Porsche or the dealer could have looked like bastions of good business.
JALbert@reddit
Yeah I can't fucking read ig.
muchgreaterthanG_O_D@reddit
Seriously. Its like companies know they have us by the balls.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
More importantly they have us by the hearts, but that doesn’t mean it’s good business. Don’t let greed or ego be your undoing.
NagisaK@reddit
Yup! Vote with your wallet! Don't buy it just because it carries a Porsche.
bluecheetos@reddit
Companies do that all the time you just don't hear about it because there's nothing newsworthy about "company screwed up, company apologized and made things right". The company doesn't promote it because publicly admitting the mistakes is bad for the corporate image.
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
I agree and worked for a brand for many years whose reputation was built on going above and beyond and doing things to make things right for the customer with almost no regard to effort or expense. But this example has already made it to the press. The cost and risk of litigating it in court will be more costly than the price of another car in dollars let alone reputation. Once the cat gets this far out of the bag, you go above and beyond to make it better than right because it’s the only way to turn things in your favor.
iguana1500@reddit
Absolutely.
My guess is that no one at corporate has time to deal with shit like this proactively. In retrospect they may wish they did, but that’s only in hindsight
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
The thing is most companies at this level, especially the ones who have reputations they like to strongly curate, have people whose sole job is maintaining brand image and integrity. Their sole job is making sure these types of things don’t happen and when a story like this comes out, you fix it immediately. Whats it really cost for them to allocate an extra GT car and pay for a weekend trip for Andreas or Walter to drop it off and have a nice lunch/dinner in Miami.
toxic_glamz@reddit
Damn
cofango@reddit (OP)
Abdul Azizi is “a longtime Porsche owner and fan of the brand,” according to AN's account of the court filing. And like many a Porsche fan, he wanted a 911 GT3. He found a 2022 model with just 34 miles on the clock at Porsche Warrington, and he then reportedly purchased the highly desirable car for $281,940. But according to the complaint filed February 11 in Seminole County Circuit Court in Florida, the new-car honeymoon didn’t last long.
The suit claims that Azizi was assured by the dealership that the car “had only ever been used to promote the brand and familiarize Porsche dealership personnel with the features of the new model.” Azizi reportedly asked for the window sticker, but was told one was not available for the car and was given a build sheet instead. However, once the vehicle arrived at Azizi’s Florida home, the lawsuit claims he found the window sticker in the glove compartment: “Stamped across the window sticker in bold, red letters were the words: PCNA CAR NOT FOR SALE,” all in capital letters.
Shortly thereafter, the lawsuit alleges the car developed electrical issues. Azizi reportedly took the car to a Porsche-certified technician who told him that it “looked like prior work had in fact been performed consistent with its prior use as a training vehicle.” Another technician at a Porsche service center “noted that a portion of the undercarriage had been removed and replaced incorrectly, further indicating prior work on the vehicle before it was sold,” according to the suit.
The technicians were unable to repair the 911 GT3 and it was out of service for nearly a year, according to the lawsuit. Azizi filed a Lemon Law claim, and won an arbitration settlement which required Porsche to repurchase the GT3, the report says; however, he still has the car as the settlement is being appealed because it didn’t include repayment of finance charges and sales tax.
Jacob Abrams, a lawyer in Miami, is handling Azizi’s lawsuit. They are seeking damages for fraudulent inducement, fraudulent misrepresentation, fraudulent concealment, civil conspiracy, negligent misrepresentation and consumer law violations. Automotive News reached out to a Porsche corporate spokesperson and the dealership’s general manager, and both declined to comment on the suit.
thisisjustascreename@reddit
Lol how did they mess that up, "no window sticker available" but it magically appears in the glove box during shipping?
StrangeRover@reddit
It's actually completely illegal in the US to sell a new vehicle without the window sticker. It's not just a cool keepsake, it's a legislative requirement. There is no "agreeing to take delivery without..." or any of that. No sticker, no sale.
My position in the auto industry has me sitting in on weekly meetings on emerging issues arising from plant, port, and dealership. Even a minor misprint on the Monroney sticker is treated with the same the gravity as missing seatbelt bolts. Absolutely nothing gets sold until it's fixed.
SpaceballsDoc@reddit
Just chiming in late but yup. Monroney is the birth certificate. Don’t have one? You don’t have a car.
Irrelevant for used, but when I bought my now bastardized Mach 1 as a CPO, the dealer was sure to let me know it actually still had the original sticker with the paperwork. Not that it mattered, I summarily violated the CPO warranty the following weekend with twin turbos. But it was a nice thought.
VRS302@reddit
I can’t even believe the comedy of errors. “I can’t give you the evidence of our crime because you already have it!”
tiagojpg@reddit
“Defense cannot disclose evidence because the owner has the smoking gun.”
sleazysuit845@reddit
Window stickers are stored with the porters and extra keys.
An order was given to get a specific car ready for delivery and the porter wasn’t told to remove the sticker.
Salesperson didn’t know and had the car dropped with the sticker and extra key in the glove so they wouldn’t lose money when the customer mentions the missing shit in the survey
Tee-Sequel@reddit
someone with a conscious may have slipped it in
YouAreMentalM8@reddit
Incompetence is the more likely culprit.
Geofferz@reddit
Never attribute to malice (or Magnanimousness) what can otherwise be attributed to stupidity
Deliriously@reddit
Especially when it comes to car dealers
YouAreMentalM8@reddit
Hanlon's razor 2.0
Gas_Grass_Ass_Class@reddit
Absolutely. Likely the dealer thought they had the window sticker in a file somewhere and figured they could be slick and pad their pockets some more by selling an unregistered (new) highly in demand car. Nobody from the dealer could probably be bothered to even go look through the glove box because the car was the dealership bastard car and it wasn’t worth their time.
TheOliveYeti@reddit
yeah right
corn_sugar_isotope@reddit
Probably completely innocent: "They will probably want this", not knowing the shenanigans planned further down the line.
thisisjustascreename@reddit
I kinda doubt anybody with a conscience is allowed to handle paperwork at this dealer.
orhantemerrut@reddit
The part I don't get is that the driver kept using the car despite finding that in the glove box. Why didn't he try and return the car, then?
Cozziechov@reddit
Reminds me of my last car (not a porsche). Dealer assured car was not in an accident. After going through the car some time after I got home I found a folded pamphlet mentioning replacement of the sunroof and windshield due to a tree falling on the car. Someone either missed it or they had a moment of clarity to include it.
thisisjustascreename@reddit
Technically it was not in an auto "accident" so they didn't lie!
convexconcepts@reddit
Even higher end dealers pull such shady moves wherever they can!
Buyer was a little naive agreeing to the deal without a window sticker and was lucky to find the sticker! I hope he gets his full money back and more
thisisjustascreename@reddit
Yeah I assume he got a reasonably good deal on it if they wouldn't provide the window sticker in advance. Who knows though, for 280k I expect a bj with my Porsche.
convexconcepts@reddit
I have not owned a Porsche but my friend had bought a GT4s which he ended up selling after a year of owning, sold it for more than what he paid, thanks to Covid era demands, so it’s entirely possible that he looked at the price and decided to move quickly with the sale and ignored the flags
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Silver_Branch3034@reddit
Incompetent dealership with incompetent staff simply hoping you are more dumb than they are.
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
My legal advice to Porsche and the dealer would be "pay him right now before you have to pay him more later."
Most state consumer statutes include awards of attorneys fees. Fighting this would just make it more expensive in the end.
savageotter@reddit
That message applies to dealers getting inventory in. Company cars are shipped to your nearest dealer and they Don't want them thinking this is stock they can sell. Because they will try to sell it lol.
After the employee hits a certain mileage its taken back and sent to auction.
In this case Porsche finished with the vehicle and put it up for sale. Should have been a used vehicle sale though.
Kitchen-Swing273@reddit
Oh wow, Porsche — the brand of 'excellence' and 'precision engineering' — just got caught selling a $280k 'brand new' GT3 that spent a year as a piñata for apprentice mechanics who couldn't even bolt it back together right. 😂
Because nothing screams 'heritage' like paying top dollar for a car that's been repeatedly gutted by kids learning which wire is the important one.
Porsche owners of Reddit: still simping for the badge after this, or finally admitting it's all just overpriced German drama? Dealer scamming level: expert. Porsche defense incoming in 3…2…1… Go!
ShocK13@reddit
When are people going to wake up and realize VAG is just a bad company through and through.
flatpetey@reddit
Porsche is doing a buyback for me right now and fortunately it has been pretty painless so far.
But…. They owe him a fresh off the line GT3 with a nice tour in Stuttgart at this point.
DiddyEpsteinSixSeven@reddit
Either Porsche quality is terrible or the next generation of Porsche techs will be terrible
rolltrebov@reddit
Paid $280k for a new GT3, got a training mule that apprentices couldn't put back together.
That's not a car, that's a tuition payment
SloeGin@reddit
When I did the Porsche track experience Birmingham, the drivers said those cars go to dealers and are sold as CPO when they’re done with them. Was very off putting to hear.
Captain_Mazhar@reddit
I mean, if it is clearly disclosed, the price accounts for it, and the CPO/powertrain warranties still apply, I don't see a problem with it.
Same thing about former rental cars. It's clearly disclosed that it was a former fleet vehicle, but the price is lower to account for that, and there are still warranties in place.
The key is disclosure. If they're upfront about it, then it's not really a problem.
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
It wasn't someone's weekend car that saw the track a few times per year. They were owned by a racing school. Their entire existence was being thrashed on a race track. They're not tearing the engine apart to replace the rod bearings, measure if the cam phasers have worn within spec, tear down the oil pump to check for wear, etc... There's no question that the engine's life was greatly reduced compared to a typical GT3. Just because it's running fine now doesn't mean 5 years from now, or however much is left on the warranty, it finally doesn't reach its tipping point from its abusive former life and grenade while you're cruising on the highway.
aak1992@reddit
IIRC an automotive Youtuber ended up getting a Mercedes (AMG GTR) track school car at an auction. I guess it was used by the school, then turned into a PR car they gave to some racer for a while before it got crashed and wholesaled... Even that is much much less egregious than what PCNA/the dealer did here though.
spacedoutastronaut@reddit
Legit street cars?
aak1992@reddit
That's the one! Love his channel.
happy--muffin@reddit
It’s been tried and tested on the track, repeatedly. Sounds pretty certified to me
StonedBooty@reddit
When I worked for BMW we had a M4 comp consul at auction so we bought it to sell as CPO. When it arrived, we noticed the headlights were completely sandblasted and required replacement. Mind you the car had maybe 2,500 miles on it. Turned out it was a performance center car that had the shit beaten out of it
And now that I think more, we had a M3 we got from BMW North America. Vehicle was a previous executive demo car, but we couldn’t CPO it because the idiot previous owner never performed the 1,200 mile service. This had not been disclosed to us prior to sale. BMW wouldn’t take it back
SeawiseS@reddit
😯
MyNameIsNotLenny@reddit
That's hilarious, not gonna lie. Been to that dealership too.
TheRealDestrux@reddit
If they used a car that wasn’t sold to a customer, I don’t see the issue, but a customers car? No way.
This is why I do my own work.
aprtur@reddit
I think you're reading this backwards - the car was a training vehicle before it was sold to the person suing over this. It's a car that realistically never should've been sold to the public - training vehicles are usually pre-pro or otherwise scrap-destined vehicles.
TheRealDestrux@reddit
So basically a car that would not be sold to the customer a car that is not for sale to the customer
aprtur@reddit
Right - they didn't use a customer's car for training, they sold a training car to a customer. Equally messed up, but the wording for each talks about very different situations.
MustLoveHuskies@reddit
How bad were the mechs that the car couldn’t even be repaired? Obviously I’d want a new car regardless, but the article states that they were unable to make repairs to it… wtf did the techs do???
Teledildonic@reddit
Engine wound up on the front.
Kmaaq@reddit
Some would pay extra for that
BankruptLays@reddit
I know I would
Teledildonic@reddit
New, one-off 928
YCheez@reddit
Rare sonderwunsch option, one of one!
thankful_cabbage@reddit
Porsche 119
Silver_Branch3034@reddit
It’s a Porsche, hot bit is at the back.
KarockGrok@reddit
I got it, don't worry.
spits out tobacco
Silver_Branch3034@reddit
Downvoting someone cause you didn’t get the reference, typical.
pridetwo@reddit
Which makes the engine wound up front even more of a fuckup
Ok_Two_2604@reddit
They were new hires from the Mini factory
sioux612@reddit
I remember there was a Viper that used to be a development car, it was then used similar to the gt3 in this story
Apparently one thing that was an issue was that certain parts really weren't made to be disassembled several times. Add in the occasional bad mechanic which you will have if every mechanic under the sun gets to play around with it, and you suddenly have screws that are forever tight, forever loose, cross threaded, wires pinched seals misplaced or similar
GettCouped@reddit
Whenever you take a car apart and put it back together again it is never the same.
J-ShaZzle@reddit
Probably meant that they wanted to file a warranty claim and Porsche said no. Electrical can get very expensive very quickly. Maybe they flagged it in their system or something.
All of this could have been avoided if they sold it used with a signed disclaimer.
VRS302@reddit
Would that disclaimer have nullified the giant red “CAR IS NOT TO BE SOLD” printed across the window sticker??
Azizi reportedly asked for the window sticker, but was told one was not available for the car and was given a build sheet instead. However, once the vehicle arrived at Azizi’s Florida home, the lawsuit claims he found the window sticker in the glove compartment: “Stamped across the window sticker in bold, red letters were the words: PCNA CAR NOT FOR SALE,” all in capital letters.
Shortly thereafter, the lawsuit alleges the car developed electrical issues. Azizi reportedly took the car to a Porsche-certified technician who told him that it “looked like prior work had in fact been performed consistent with its prior use as a training vehicle.” Another technician at a Porsche service center “noted that a portion of the undercarriage had been removed and replaced incorrectly, further indicating prior work on the vehicle before it was sold,” according to the suit.
The technicians were unable to repair the 911 GT3 and it was out of service for nearly a year, according to the lawsuit. Azizi filed a Lemon Law claim, and won an arbitration settlement which required Porsche to repurchase the GT3, the report says; however, he still has the car as the settlement is being appealed because it didn’t include repayment of finance charges and sales tax.
Jacob Abrams, a lawyer in Miami, is handling Azizi’s lawsuit. They are seeking damages for fraudulent inducement, fraudulent misrepresentation, fraudulent concealment, civil conspiracy, negligent misrepresentation and consumer law violations. Automotive News reached out to a Porsche corporate spokesperson and the dealership’s general manager, and both declined to comment on the suit.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
The training cars are not for sale. When they are retired from training duty they can be sold, but usually with the requisite disclaimers so that buyers know what they’re getting and with the understanding that the price reflects the car’s history. How this all happened without proper documentation would be an interesting story.
VRS302@reddit
If imagine the how is just a dealership willing to straight up scam their customers.
EC_CO@reddit
a Florida dealer that scams customers?? I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya! Not really, scam dealers and Florida seem to go hand in hand
Titan0917@reddit
I’m not denying the existence of scam dealers in Florida, but at least read the article.
“ Porsche Cars North America (PCNA) and Pennsylvania dealership Porsche Warrington have been named in a lawsuit”
moose3025@reddit
Was surprised to see its porche dealer right up street from me damn Thompson lol
nondescriptzombie@reddit
I'm still waiting for the third "Escape From" movie. Escape from Miami.
xinxs@reddit
What?
VRS302@reddit
The answer to “how did this happen” (the how) is that this dealership is ok with scamming people.
oshaCaller@reddit
When I did Nissan training all the cars we used were crushed or sold to other schools. They were never supposed to see the road again.
You did not want one of those cars. They let people with little experience tear them apart and put them back together. We would also "bug" them. We'd group up and make a fault and then another group would try to figure it out.
andyb521740@reddit
Same thing when I was at school. Manufactures would donate their lemon buy backs to the school for our use but in turn could never be driven on the street, sold or registered. They were missing their steering wheels to prevent us from driving them.
It was great working on brand new vehicles instead of the pile fleet cars.
oshaCaller@reddit
We got pre production Titans. The dodge class had a dyno installed and they ran their viper on it and it made a little over 300 hp and titan hit 400. The viper had been sitting for a while and probably had old gas in it. The twin turbo 300zx we had, had less than 300 miles on it.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
That sounds like a pretty cool way to learn how to work on cars.
hiroo916@reddit
The article says he paid about $281K. About how much should the price have been accounting for the training use?
slapdashbr@reddit
considering it was re-assembled incorrectly, approximately $0
CallLivesMatter@reddit
The answer to that is way outside my knowledge base. I’m sure there’s a collection of Porsche nerds over at Rennlist who have already discussed this exact case and come up with their own numbers.
Unspec7@reddit
Yes, just like how you can buy literally crashed cars. It just needs to be adequately disclosed.
Foshizzle-63@reddit
I went through Toyotas t-ten training and did years of continuing education at Toyotas Portland PDC. The cars they use to teach mechanics how to work on and fix cars get absolutely hammered. These aren't master technicians with 20+ years of experience, these are students, some of whom are green as can be, learning how to diagnose and repair cars. Teachers will Essentially sabotage the cars, purposely induce faults and malfunctions, so that the students can learn to diagnose problems, and repair them. And the cars are used over and over. These cars get taken apart and put back together hundreds of times by multiple different classes with dozens of different students of varying levels of skill and competency. The cars get absolutely fucked beyond all repair, they typically only last two or three years before they no longer offer any educational value due to being so far gone, with missing and damaged parts and hardware. It's insane that this 911 was ever offered for sale, the vehicles from the schools I went to were crushed or sold as scrap metal. This car wasn't repaired poorly by a couple bad techs, it was purposely destroyed for training and educational purposes by years of different graduating classes of future Porsche technicians.
V48runner@reddit
The industry is in rapid decline.
nondescriptzombie@reddit
FTFY
StinkySoggyUnderwear@reddit
Doesn’t matter. You still won’t want to take your Porsche to the for service.
manbearpig0101@reddit
I worked for Chrysler many years ago. We had a viper that was used for training techs. Disassembled a re assembled dozens of times. After training this perfectly good running viper got crushed. Very sad and I wish they would have sold it instead. But maybe this Porsche story us why.
winniethepujals@reddit
I think they absolutely could have sold it, if they were honest about its history and didn’t misrepresent it. Someone like Matt Armstrong or a track-going enthusiast would pick up a good deal like that in a heartbeat. Paying full price for the expectation of a new car is where they went wrong. This could have been easily avoided with a wavier/disclosure notice, and a fair price tag, not a rug pull manipulation sale on an unsuspected owner.
ducky21@reddit
I did a HPDE at CotA a few years ago in a bone fucking stock Honda Fit with autocross tires and autocross pads up front in one of the lower tier run groups.
You'd think I was Artyon Senna himself the way the GT3 drivers handled their cars. Some of the high money supercar guys know how to use them; most are posers who just want to look cool.
winniethepujals@reddit
100% agree. That’s exactly it, It’s ideal for a dedicated track car, for someone who won’t insure it, doesn’t worry about cosmetic imperfections or afraid to turn a wrench. vinwiki’s latest video on the nightmare mint-green gt3 was also disappointing to see.
iroll20s@reddit
Ive seen factory racing school cars sold through salvage auction. Generally as non runners even if they work fine. No expectations of condition then.
WhyIsIt27@reddit
Yeah crushing makes sense from a liability standpoint. Rather eat the loss on one car than deal with this exact lawsuit situation when some disgruntled buyer discovers their "new" car was basically a training mule.
The window sticker literally said NOT FOR SALE in red letters lol. Someone at that dealership really just... ignored that and sold it anyway. Probably figured nobody would notice 34 miles on the odo.
Salty-Dog-9398@reddit
It’s not only the car you need to protect by crushing, it also prevents the parts from entering circulation and causing issues across potentially thousands of customers.
CaptainKoala@reddit
It's fine to sell it but you can't hide the history of the vehicle. If you price it accordingly, and someone buys it knowing it might have problems, I don't see an issue.
mklimbach@reddit
I can tell you that was probably the least headache way to do it, sad though it is.
My dealership sold a branded title (theft) Camaro SS, with full disclosure of the title history to someone. It was low mileage and hadn't been damaged, but was still worth a lot less and sold accordingly. The guy came back about 2 days later and SCREAMED at our service advisor about why the Onstar doesn't work when he went to sign up for it.
Well, buddy, Onstar is a tracking device and anyone stealing a car probably won't leave it in the car. The buttons were all still there, but being that there was no subscription to it, it wasn't really something we could test properly, nor would a technician doing a safety inspection necessarily think to do so. When we looked into it for him at no charge, we found the module had indeed been removed.
He was a real piece of work, tended to specifically go after our female service advisor and talk down to her, just kept insisting with the low miles the car had that "everything should work, it's a brand new vehicle." No, it is not a brand new vehicle, it's used, branded, and we were upfront about history. He wouldn't go away until the owners paid for a GM dealer (we are not a GM dealer) installed and tested everything.
Should the onstar issue have been identified before sale? Maybe. The person who traded it in to us said nothing about it when he did (and we worked with him often, so maybe he didn't know, maybe he omitted it intentionally), and we certainly would have been upfront about that had we known prior to the sale.
Moral of the story is, vehicles like this are a nightmare and have hidden issues that probably won't be easy or sometimes even possible to identify until someone owns and drives the vehicle in a daily fashion, even if you're thorough and honest. Telling someone a vehicle is AS-IS rarely works as people will leverage whatever they can to avoid paying for something if they can.
manbearpig0101@reddit
I've learned that customers that get the best deals are never satisfied with said deal
Jim_in_tn@reddit
Why would you use a gt3 for that? A standard 911 wouldn’t suffice?! lol
Captain_Mazhar@reddit
GT3 has an entirely different engine (4.0NA vs the base 3.0TT) and an entirely different suspension setup (struts in the base vs the double wishbone in the GT3). Kind of hard to train a tech to fix an engine with a completely different engine.
welldonez@reddit
Where’s Nakai San when you need him ?
lawtechie@reddit
I get that Porsche North America wants to train mechanics on real cars. Why would they use a limited production car for this, when a base model would be just as good to teach them?
StrangeRover@reddit
Because at the BOM level the difference in cost for Porsche AG to produce a GT3 vs a standard Carrera is negligible.
NagisaK@reddit
Because there are things on a 911 GT3 that a base model 911 does not have.
LikeALincolnLog42@reddit
This is why people should never agree to arbitration when buying a car or for anything for that matter. He had to go through arbitration and to court.
chauggle@reddit
These cars exist all over the country and have for decades.
When they arrive in the country, if they are earmarked for something PCNA related, they will get the RED STAMP that was seen on the sticker.
Cars with this stamp could be press cars, training cars, launch cars - hell, the special Platinum Miles Delta Shuttle cars had this stamp on the original sticker.
Once PCNA is done with the car in whatever capacity, it either goes to the Porsche dealer-only auction OR it gets handed out by the regional rep to a particular store of their choosing.
The thing to remember, regardless of time in this country, or miles on the clock, is that the car is UNTITLED - it still had a fresh MSO and the next person to buy it will the first owner, as it were, officially.
So, it will get sold as 'new', which is technically correct.
It's very unlikely this car went to the company auction.
My suspicion is one of two things - either the dealership actually DIDNT know what the car had been doing before and told the truth, OR, they absolutely knew it had been to PTAP, and played dumb, and essentially lied when asked.
Every 'over and above' car that I got as a hand-out from my rep came with a full story, and it was now MY story to tell, good or bad. You don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth - we would have to take fleet Cayennes and Macans from time to time to get in line at the shot of an extra sports car.
Level-Setting825@reddit
That cars VIN should have been registered as used for training purposes/school and never allowed to be put on the road as a consumer car.
andyb521740@reddit
Correct, if the allegations of the lawsuit are valid this car should never left the school without being crushed. To sell a car used for training is an absurd amount of liability for Porsche.
link_asylum@reddit
Wow crazy
Robbbbbbbbb@reddit
In high school, GM donated a CTS-V to our school under a similar deal. I think it was their ASEP program?
The car had its VIN plate pulled an CRUSH AFTER USE (or some similar wording) plate riveted in the door jam. That was back in the late 2000s and I saw that car still at the school not too long ago.
Tootz_McGootz@reddit
That dealership knew exactly what was going on and didn’t want to keep paying the floor plan interest on it. If the buyer saw the sticker at purchase the jig would have up immediately. Porsche never should have put this car in the hands of the dealer, they knew the students mucked it up and still gave it to the dealer. Bad look for everyone involved.
jspek666@reddit
I would just post what I posted in the r/porsche post about this, but I worked for this dealer and it doesn’t shock me 1 bit.
andyb521740@reddit
That's the odd part, how did this car get back into dealer circulation? Once it got sent to the school it should have never left without being crushed as schools are going to destroy the car. I bet this is a single dealer being shady more than Porsche itself.
klowny@reddit
Yeah, I'm surprised this car wasn't just kept in the test mule, demo, or PEC fleet forever for everyone to rent and beat on. It's not like they won't need to train mechanics on how to repair the GT3 ever again, might as well keep practicing on the one getting beat on.
Aromatic_Fail_1722@reddit
"Why is there a bloody LS in my GT3?!"
gaius49@reddit
Good news, its better now. More torque, more power, better reliability, cheaper to service, and less weight. We made it better!
intern_steve@reddit
Does an LS weigh less than the Porsche flat six?
gaius49@reddit
Generally yes. This swap has been done before and well documented on the 996 where it does actually save a fair amount of weight, and reduce the rear weight bias.
no_flair@reddit
When did this purchase happen and when was the car made? Is it not suspicious that a highly desirable new car has been sitting on the lot for a year with 34 miles? Even if it was used for promotion purposes, does it take a year?
Maybe I'm just too broke to not see the red flags.
skagoat@reddit
He was told it was used to promote the brand and familiarize employees with it's features for that year.
no_flair@reddit
yes, I know but realistically does it take a whole year?
"here's a 911 and here is a GT3. A GT3 has these features that are different from the 911"
From the images on their google maps page, it seems like they also have a Carrera GT and a 918, arguably more rare and special than a 992 GT3 that can be used to promote the brand.
Confident_Introvert@reddit
Porsche needs to make this right, id make Sure of it
Aggravating_Mine7039@reddit
This energy is unfairly attractive.
hordak666@reddit
weird bot
Muggi@reddit
Not surprised at all it's Porsche of Warrington. My sis was a customer when it was Holbert's Volkswagon/Porsche (she on the VW side), that family REALLY took care of their customers regardless of the car they bought. It got sold to a conglomerate in like...2015 maybe? She tried to stay with them but the crew treated VW customers like a nuisance; they cut VW completely and added Audi soon after.
For anyone in the Philadelphia area, it's owned by the Sloane Automotive Group. Currently rocking that 1.9 stars on Google, and it's reviews from before this came out.
Macwwa1@reddit
This post definitely has presence.
oldsurfsnapper@reddit
Getting a new Porsche turned out to be not as easy as he hoped.
RBR927@reddit
Seems pretty cut and dry, they need to pay him.
Ok-Improvement-3670@reddit
The dealer offered but refused to pay for the interest and costs.
vetruviusdeshotacon@reddit
Well then the court is gonna make em pay, this is a slam dunk. A frankenporsche isn't a new vehicle
CaptainTwenty@reddit
“dried”
Trichotillomaniac-@reddit
OVERDONE AND DRY
Area51_Spurs@reddit
Pretty sure that was the issue in the first place.
Geofferz@reddit
Cut and shut
EZKTurbo@reddit
As someone who went through trade school for auto tech. Yeah that's really fucked up. Lmaooo
Skippy989@reddit
Perhaps they should also look into the dealership practice of "selling" a new GT3 Touring for MSRP to a favored customer who drives the car for a few hundred miles then gives it back to the dealer who can then sell it as "used" at a 100% markup.
stupidber@reddit
But that could mean anything