We (rightfully) blame the Ottoman Empire for many of our problems, but was it that much worse than the other European empires of the time?
Posted by nidorancxo@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 503 comments
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
The more I read about history, the more I’ve come to loathe all empires; they were each as dreadful as the last.
The Ottomans were also evil, and it is a good thing they fell; the fact that other empires were wicked does not absolve the Ottoman Empire. Thankfully, the colonial empires have also collapsed, and the world is, in a sense, a better place for it.
To put it bluntly, to hell with the past. We have finally escaped a world where slavery was considered legitimate.
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
In 2013 i was in Ankara OGDU and i had a conversation with one student and he said for me Turkey is the last state that managed to liberate itself from the ottoman epmire
lurkiemclurkface@reddit
Sorry to revive a month-old post but this is how I feel as well. To hell with royal dynasties. Even at its hey day, the Ottoman government exploited my poor, rural ancestors to wage wars of conquest that mostly impacted other poor people.
Anyone with republican views should be critical of all empires. It makes me sick to hear regular Turkish people call the Ottoman royal family their “ancestors”. Their real ancestors were peasants (like mine).
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
This is the problem with how history is taught in school.
We learn 99% about how leaders were doing and maybe 1% what the population was doing.
lurkiemclurkface@reddit
Definitely. We need a lot more information on the conditions of the regular people and less about great men of history. Of course they were impactful, but often we just learn of maps shifting and not as much about the lives of ordinary people.
highonmoon@reddit
Well that’s a great intention but not quite correct. Turkish parliament was claiming itself as a replacement to the ottoman parliament, and then abolish sultan’s reign as a law. Turkey had a pay war reputation after the war for example. Ottoman empire ruled by mostly Turkish elite, and Turkey is a continuation of that elite. So what would be doing about armenian genocide, Turkey must claim and apologize for the genocide for example.
Gullible-Voter@reddit
He is right. Turks were only allowed to be farmers and soldiers, nothing else. People of Anatolia was kept in the stone age.
But the criminal Erdogan regime has been brainwashing the uneducated millions for 2 decades that Ottomans were great and we are their descendants etc.
HandleMore1730@reddit
I still remember being in Turkey in 2010 and seeing the Islamic Inventions shows. I could help but realise most of the inventions were already invented in ancient times, but to "build pride" they were being presented as Islamic Inventions.
Propaganda on all sides is insidious.
Practical-Meeting735@reddit
One of the most "prestigious" project fairs are held by Tübitak. There was a peoject which gathered a lot of criticism, namely the ""Fasting Spoon"", which used two electrodes to measure the conductivity hence the saltiness of a soup. This shit got to the finals...
What a joke of a country xD
Drstermak85@reddit
Btw this is not only allegory it is actually historically correct, Ottoman government signed the treaty of sevres, but the Turkish government in Anatolia (established by the people) denied it and forced the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, this one was the ending the legitimacy of the Ottoman government and, in short, end of the Ottoman empire
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
I couldn’t agree more. It’s baffling how some Turkish citizens still champion the Ottoman Empire.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit
There is a difference between championing the Ottomans vs criticizing/appreciating them based on the civilizational standards of their time.
There are many people on here who are not fair on their evaluation of the Ottomans(turning a blind eye to questionable things Byzantines, Bulgarians, Dusan family did)
ZonzoDue@reddit
Their is one colonial empire that remains. Because it has the excuse of territorial continuity no one seems to mind, but Russia is still one.
Sending criminally poor Daghestani, Tuvans, Ingush or Buryats to die in Ukraine for the sack of the Russian elite.
NoDoughnut8225@reddit
Hey frenchie, when will you decolonize and free occitans? And Guiana with other overseas territories? Maybe giving autonomy to Corsica? Parisian tyranny is heavy on them.
PaintressLeia@reddit
Oh please. Stop fooling people. Who is actually doing a genocide in the center of Europe against Ukrainians?
French people ? No, Russia.
Before telling to other people what they should do, start to decolonize YOUR empire.
Before making war to other people who DONT WANT to be Russian, care about your people.
You cannot hide that you are a 3rd world country.
Any Corsican, Basque or Guyanese live a better life than Russians.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
genocide? i like flaming russians as much as the next guy but you cant really use this word after gaza
PaintressLeia@reddit
Let's talk about Armenian genocide.
Oh it seems that your country is a specialist to deny the genocide.
Genocide is not the monopole of Palestinians. That's ridiculous.
And you don't have any respect for Ukrainian lives.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
whataboutism + false assertation + ad hominem
sheesh, hasbara was better back in my day
PaintressLeia@reddit
To deny Armenian genocide is punished by law in some countries.
How come that you feel free to accuse the others with arrogance, but you refuse to clean in front of your door ?
Few-Audience9921@reddit
Israel has murdered 600 palestinians since it promised to stop (the ceasefire), how about you stop trying to do everything to distract from these innocent deaths?
PaintressLeia@reddit
So, can you talk a little bit about your country, Turkey ?
We get no answer about it. It is a shame, it seems that you like talking.
Maybe you can talk about the way minorities are treated in your country ?
Kurds, Armenians, Peshmergas. How are they ?
Do Kurds have the right of a free country, or you just defend this right aboard and don't respect it when you are involved?
Tell me. Who is hypocrite exactly ?
Few-Audience9921@reddit
Tell me a bit about your country, does every minority have their own country inside of your country?
What ethnicity is a "Peshmerga"? This must be trying to look stupid on purpose lmfao.
PaintressLeia@reddit
Are there refugees coming from Europe because they are oppressed by their country?
Because Kurds from Turkey are numerous as refugees in Europe.
Funny to read that you were defending the rights of minorities 2 comments before, except in your country.
Double standard.
Start to clean in front of your door.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
Almost like there is money to be made by migrating to europe. Oops, couldn't have thought of that one!
PaintressLeia@reddit
Really ? So Turkey is a third world country, so it is preferable for people to become refugees in a country they don't know and where they have nothing?
Let's talk a little bit about the journalists (including European) who are jailed or risk to be jailed/ risk their lives because they talk about the Kurds ? Do they do that for money too ?
Few-Audience9921@reddit
FYI, having a right to life is different from having a right to your own country. I would like to create my own country too but nobody lets me!
PaintressLeia@reddit
Kurds have existed for 5000 years.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
I see, you are deluded.
NoDoughnut8225@reddit
Nah, man. I think they are genuinely just baiting, nobody can be this stupid
Few-Audience9921@reddit
Idk man, some people genuinely are this detached
Kry_08@reddit
Lets talk about Algeria then. And what about Rwanda? You're acting as if France is any better when it is in fact not.
PaintressLeia@reddit
France is of course better regarding human rights.
I think Algeria is an independent country for more than 60 years, isn't it ?
So what is the point with this topic, exactly. Then, if you want to talk about the black decade, when around 200 000 Algerians have died due to islamists between 1990-2000, or the Jewish population in Algeria, feel free.
Interesting that you talk about Rwanda, as there is a genocide in organized by this State I. Congo and nobody talks about it.
NoDoughnut8225@reddit
You are either baiting or genuine slow. Like fr
PaintressLeia@reddit
We see you.
SultanXenadonII@reddit
As much as I disagree with the previous guys tone and motives, that doesn’t mean modern France is completely innocent either as a neo-colonialist state especially in Western Africa. By making other nations use the CFA franc and imperialist monetary policies, they create a dependency that undermines sovereignty and self determination.
PaintressLeia@reddit
You should start be giving independence to Kurds.
Ok_Adhesiveness_3774@reddit
You should start by stopping assasinating African Presidents
PaintressLeia@reddit
And still no independence for Kurds?
Ploutophile@reddit
They are free to leave. Mauritania already did. In 1973, when Françafrique was a real thing rather than Russian propaganda.
stats_merchant33@reddit
They are all shit if we are hontest. The world is full of shit
ionlymadethis3@reddit
Just say you’re xenophobic cuz tf 😭
PaintressLeia@reddit
You are xenophobic.
ionlymadethis3@reddit
How? You’re accounting the people of being the representatives of their government.
PaintressLeia@reddit
When they come and make the imperialist propaganda of their government, the support it, so they deserve the same treatment.
ionlymadethis3@reddit
Okay, where are you from? Let’s generalise you based on your governments actions.
PaintressLeia@reddit
Not your business. It doesn't change the fact that russia is a colonial state which cares more about making war to the others who don't want to be russian, than to take care of the Russian people themselves!
And its supporters dare coming and make lessons to other countries where people live better than in russia, a third world country.
XO1GrootMeester@reddit
Ukraine to then, many Russian soldiers fell.
Crindombre@reddit
Everything you just mentioned has been an integral part of France for a very long time. There have even been territories where independence referendums were held, and you can imagine that if they are still part of France, it’s because they didn’t want independence. So trying to compare fully integrated territories with Russia, which today is still waging war to grab whatever it can, is pretty ridiculous. Worry about your own country, which is sending thousands, even millions, of poor ‘Russians’ from the least wealthy and most disadvantaged regions to their deaths. Today, it’s not France that is at war to seize land.
NoDoughnut8225@reddit
Millions of russians sent? Dang
Crindombre@reddit
Yes, millions and if that’s not the case yet, it won’t be long. you sacrifice 100 men to kill one. It’s no wonder you’re compared to orcs and that in the end you end up with a catastrophic toll. But I guess you don’t care, since it’s Russians from the depths of Siberia who are dying.
NoDoughnut8225@reddit
Darkone539@reddit
China too. Plenty of places like Tibet that want out.
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
What’s more, they are still occupying Circassia. They remain a thoroughly imperialist power.
vegancorr@reddit
Turkey has been and is still imperialist with kurds.
seriouslysrs121@reddit
Don’t forget Cyprus
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
Yes, it’s not much different from Russia, really.
Dangerous-Weird-8534@reddit
Circassia was erased from the map in the 1860's.
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
It was unjustly occupied, but it will regain its freedom.
vegancorr@reddit
Don't forget about China with at least Tibet, Xinjiang (uyghurs).
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
Russian Empire "destroyed" Turkey.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit
Not quite. Take your meds.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
1821.
Neutrinomind@reddit
Another winter invasion when?
NoBetterIdeaToday@reddit
As a side note to that... they did actually have human zoos.
Ill-Dragonfruit4394@reddit
C’est pareil pour les americains. La moitié du monde est colonisé par eux en commencant par l’allemagne
QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit
Ironically, today, we have more slaves than ever, it's just not talked about as much in regular media.
Look into it, it's still being done, especially with immigrants (check out how Qatar built the Olympic stadium for the previous Olympics, or how Burj Khalifa got built by, how many people died in both instances and what conditions they lived in. There should be at least some documentaries on the subject)
rubwub9000@reddit
Unfree labour is not slavery per se. A distinction that often gets lost but is more than just being fussy about definitions.
QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit
I gave some examples a few comments down.
I don't think of free labor, I am talking about literally having no freedom of choice in the matter, one way or another
DemandNew8116@reddit
Indeed but respectfully, today we as slaves have way way better lives and much much more freedom in just about every single aspect of our lives.
QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit
Nope, I am not talking about wages
To name a few examples:
-Immigrant slavery - Usually, they get a job in their country or directly out of country and end up in country where they need to work. There, their employer takes away their passports, under a disguise of needing to sort papers or whatever and then they don't want to give them back. They give the worker just enough to keep them alive, which is a fraction of what they should've got as their salary. So, they end up without their papers and documents, without money, working in a foreign country with hardly any real options considering they, most of the times, come from a poor family and poor country. They stay because they are at mercy of their employer who they are hoping will one day come to their senses and give the money they are owed. Sometimes it takes months, sometimes it takes years. In examples such as Qatar and UAE, add inhumane conditions and living spaces and many of these people die on the job site.
-Corporate slavery - Nintendo is the best example here. There was a case of a dude pirating their games, can't remember specifics, what, how etc, but in the end, he was ordered to pay majority of his salary for the rest of his life to Nintendo in order to repay supposed 'damages' he did by pirating their games. Really disgusting shit and why I will never buy anything from them, a hellspawn of a company that deserves to crumble.
-Child slavery - Poor countries, poor family, children forced to work instead of going to school, this one is the easiest to explain and probably amongst the most widespread...
-Debt slavery - Get into debt which you are forced to work off, but debt keeps increasing, leaving you as a forced worker for the rest of your life.
-Human trafficking - Another self explanatory one, people imprisoned due to all sorts of schemes and then sold for labor, sex, organs, drug mules or whatever else. Epstein and that whole gang of pedos counts under this one. Also the Albanian UCK was connected with organ trafficking, many examples of sex slaves who are forced into porn so their owners can profit off of them, international hookers who are acting as models or influencers etc, all kinds of examples here, just depends on the age range
-Just, slavery slavery - Pure ol' regular slavery, where you are coerced to work under treat of violence if you don't.
And, I'd also add political slavery as another one, but this is from my point of view. A type of slavery where a whole country is being exploited by either their dictator or another country who the government keeps trying to get in good relationship with, at the detriment of their people. Balkans and EU are perfect example of this, EU keeps exploiting us while our dictators (specifically giving Serbia's example here) pockets get filled and people see none of it, on the contrary, we are getting flooded with trash from Germany, resources taken away, benefits pocketed by the rulers etc etc
H0pelessUtopian@reddit
Usually not literal slaves but still slaves. (Wage slavery is still slavery)
Spirited-Muffin-8104@reddit
most slaves today became slaves the same way slaves became slaves in the past. It's by debt. A common misconception is slavery persisted because people were racist or prejudice, but most slaves throughout history became so due to economic circumstances. There are also many war prisoners who were sold to slavery, but we tend to overstate how often wars occurred simply because history tends to keep record of major events and not a random Saturday in 35BC where it's just another day. I happen to be from a country where slavery made a comeback, though it tends to be overstated by the media. I have seen slave markets, talked with actual slaves, and know people who get tortured or escape. Point being, people often say "there are more slaves today than ever before" without actually knowing their circumstances. But I've seen it firsthand, and almost all the ones i've seen are people in debt or as you correctly mentioned they are wage slaves.
majikayoSan@reddit
Just a side note, France still has colonies.
Yulaf_Adam@reddit
Kanka ben de sizdenim yumuşak götlu bir Avrupalıyım beni de kabul edin ahh yorum amk bu kadar omurgasızlık evlere şenlik
Weird_Gap_2243@reddit
You genuinely have to be a cuck. You see a map where your country has not stooped to the low of others. Yet you still decide to belittle it.
fat-wombat@reddit
Solid take- happy to put the past to rest and continue the real argument about who makes the best sarma (trick question, just give me some for scientific purposes )
malduan@reddit
>We have finally escaped a world where slavery was considered legitimate.
What do you even mean? In the "beacon" of the West, the US, slavery is both legal and is being actively practiced today.
erlikosauruss@reddit
Oo gelmiş hemen evropalılara yaranmaya çalışan köpekçik, "good boyyy"
seriouslysrs121@reddit
Based Turk?
el_magyar@reddit
As I always joke, if you are cornered to choose, I think we are lucky that we had Ottomans, thhan other colonial empires.
always think what would be like that serbs had to learn waltz instead of balkan kolo
misterchestnut87@reddit
Austro-Hungary wasn't really as bad as the Ottomans, but you would be highly repressed for your culture and language if it weren't German or Hungarian. (That is, you'd face heavy assimilationist pressures.) It's also not really colonial in the same way as the Ottomans, British, etc.
el_magyar@reddit
Well, our language system is based on german gramatic, but fortunately our tradition and culture is more similar to Ottomans... But the most repressed colonial practices we had in Serbia are comming from russian influence, especially in the 19. century. We had some of the most liberal constitution drawed in 1835, that russian supressed.
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
The Ottomans were also wicked; they engaged in the sex slave trade and committed atrocities. Whether they were the "worst" is debatable, I suppose, but I can certainly say that every single empire was a bloody curse.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit
Serbians were trying to establish their own empire under the Dusans who also aimed to conquer Constantinople through their expansionist offers. This obviously came to an end after the Ottomans conquered both the Greeks and Balkan Slavs.
el_magyar@reddit
Unfortunately, I know my serbian history, but here's the question of colonial legacy, and as I said, better ottoman colony than WE :)
SuccessfulVisual3719@reddit
Serbians weren't trying to establish an empire, Dušan was. Just like turkish people didn't establish the ottoman empire, the sultans did.
You are conflating modern day concepts of empire to the 14th century.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit
While that is sort of correct, certain nations are forever linked to the legacy of certain empires. Kind of like Italy and Rome, Greece-Eastern Rome etc.
It was the progenitor of Serbia.
Pownzls@reddit
Slaver, is still considered legimate in may parts of the wolrd lol
y0h3n@reddit
you have all the red zones with human zoo but u still target ottoman and never say anything about real topic here?
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
I’m critiquing both, if you must know. One can hardly look at those Victorian human zoos and then claim the Ottoman slave trade was some sort of lovely garden party. It’s all a bit much, isn’t it?
Carzon-the-Templar@reddit
How did you learn English while living with 27 people in a cram house mr hırt?
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
A racist Grey Wolf? I’m not surprised, lol. And no, I’m not Kurdish—I was born in Trebizond, lmao.
Better-Inspector3849@reddit
Exactly, and thank goodness the British empire ended slavery in all its territories. Pity it is still being carried out in the Middle East and Africa today. Especially the Middle East.
Due_Newspaper4237@reddit
It will fall apart; all subjugated peoples shall be free.
betacarotentoo@reddit
To hell with it, but keep remembering it in order not to repeat it.
Aman2895@reddit
There are still colonies and empires, but they are called “small power” and “multinational state”/“great power”/“superpower” respectively.
Also, yes, there are now more slaves than ever
Empty-Blacksmith-592@reddit
There is still Russia that stands. We can’t wait for it to collapse!
KhanofSeljuks@reddit
I don’t see that happening anytime soon, even the oppressed Russian minorities are brainwashed to the point where they either blindly support Putin or are concerningly indifferent.
Empty-Blacksmith-592@reddit
I sadly agree with you!
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Greetings,
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Sabeneben@reddit
I dont think so 🤔
Sensitive-Emu1@reddit
Ottomans were not evil, just human. Humans are evil thou
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Yes, definitely!
Koffielurker_@reddit
Doubt that Luxembourg didn't have em, they were doing the slavery for the love of the game after all.
stonedturtle69@reddit
We didn't have them.
edwardkenw4y@reddit
All of the people responding with "Yes" don't care about history if it isn't related with the Balkans.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
The irony of this comment. Former British and French colonies now have booming populations and higher standards of living. The Ottomans committed genocides worse than anyone in the west could even imagine.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
You mean the Middle East, India, Africa etc.? The places with booming standards are the ones they actually managed to genocide and replace with their own people. The Ottomans were bad, yes, but don’t romanticise the western colonial powers.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
What country did they genocide and replace with their own people?
The user I was replying to gave the Congo as an example. Well, its population has gone from 10 million to now 110 million since the Free State, and none of them are Belgians. On the other hand, much of Armenia, Assyria, Pontus Greece is now just Turkey and only populated by Turks.
It says a great deal that western colonial powers almost appear romantically compared to the Ottomans. I was only correcting somebody that claimed otherwise.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
You don’t know how America was settled?
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
You back peddled on Middle East, India, Africa pretty fast lol.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Not really, just responding to your question.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
Do you know how the Middle East went from having no Muslims to only Muslims?
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Yes, through the 7th century Arab conquest. The formerly Roman North Africa and Middle East who were not happy with the taxes and treatment they got from Constantinople decided to go with the newly military powerful Arabs and their religion. From that, the Islamic Golden age of the Great caliphate began, Baghdad and Cairo rivalled Constantinople and were big bastions of science and culture. During their prosperity I n the great caliphate, Islam and Arabic spread through the population just as Latin/Greek and Christianity did during the Roman Empire. This is the great empire the Ottomans were trying to LARP as but failed, just like European powers for a long time were trying to LARP as the successors of the Roman Empire.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
And there you go now committing the very empire romantic revisionism you accused me of, by glossing over the bloody conquest part of the spread of Islam and all its large massacres and enslavements. “Great empire” lol, you could make a a far stronger argument of that with western colonialism bringing scientific advancement.
I know a Coptic Egyptian person who would strongly disagree with you, but this is no surprise. This myth the Islamic or Ottoman empires were peaceful multicultural societies where everyone is equal has always been only believed by progressive westerners, no Christian who actually had to live there as a lower class citizen has ever said this.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
There is generally a big difference between Empires people are proud of as part of their history like the Roman Empire and the Abassid Caliphate and empires everyone is unhappy about like the Ottoman Empire. Yes, conquest and war was part of history for everybody.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
There is a very ugly historical motivation behind trying to revision the Ottoman empire to be more positive, as you did. Since the 1815 balance of power, the Ottomans were essential vassals to the West because powers like England and France were terrified of Russia once the industrial revolution reached it, they knew Russia would be the lone European partner and the West has severe Russophobia to this day because of it.
This meant that the West couldn’t let the Ottoman empire dissolve, and that also called for a new ‘progressive’ image of the Turks. Lots of Victorian era intellectuals in the west claimed that image of the “Terrible Turk” was a lie and that the Ottoman empire was a great peaceful multicultural society. One of the worst was Knut Hamsun, future Nazi supporter.
So when news of the Bulgarian Horrors and Armenian Horrors reached Europe, it was a serious debate it the West whether to stop genocide if it would benefit Russia. They decided your people should be saved but not mine, and now a century later you are trying to tell me the Ottomans weren’t that bad.
What an incredibly stupid OP. The Ottomans already had slaves taken from every continent in every major city, including a culture of stealing child slaves. What purpose would a human zoo serve? How is that even worse than massacres?
When looking at former western colonies and seeing them enjoying internet access and being football fanatics and enjoying other advancing fruits of that era, it’s nonsense to claim an empire that never created anything good like the Ottomans was less bad.
These progressive Westerners actually admired the Ottomans because they created an apartheid system where Christians are lower class citizens. Being Freemasons, these westerners hated Christianity and wished to hoped to do the same to Christians in their own global empires. Another reason to create a romantic image of the Turk while slandering Christians in the empire.
mahmurmahmut@reddit
You don't know history of Anatolia. The thing is history of Anatolia and Christianity is very related before the Turks came. And in the same history you will see how non Christians removed from Anatolia and how Christians murder each other in Anatolia.
When Turks came there was actually very little people living in the area. They just settle some empty places and some other fight for the cities and castles. Also most of those little population stayed and be part of the empire. They might be converted or live where they are till the end of Ottoman empire.
Another point is Ottomans controlled very wide area for 500 years. Look at all the controlled places, they all speak different languages, they all have their identity amd religion. How long it took British Empire to completely erase all the local culture in the areas they control.
You people saw only one kind of power and you don't believe there could be a good kind of power. And your hate to the closest such power is blinding you.
Until people believe in such goodness and see the true potential, there will be no goodness in the world. Just believe when you get any chance to believe. Or you are helping those who kill cultures.
edwardkenw4y@reddit
Idk, Middle East looks pretty bad to me
Dude, look up the Congo Free State. Or even the Holocaust, for that matter - both of those were done by people who were European through and through.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
Largely because of the Ottomans/Turks.
I did, it’s populated almost entirely by native African groups, not British or French claiming it has southern Britain or France. This proves the Ottomans were far worse.
People being confined to ghettos and being lower status for their religion? The Ottomans did that for over 600 years. It was an apartheid state meant to erase native populations.
edwardkenw4y@reddit
Nope, the US and Israel.
"The Ottomans committed genocides worse than anyone in the west could even imagine."
The sentence that I just quoted is literally your argument that I was responding to. I used the Congo Free State as an example that the Europeans can be just as barbaric as the Ottomans, because millions of people died during Leopold II's reign over the Congo.
Holocaust wasn't just people living in ghettos, it was the intentional and industrial destruction of the European Jews, where 6 million European Jews were killed. The only time the Ottomans even come close to those numbers are in the case of the Armenian genocide, and even then, 1 million, while being a gigantic number by any reckoning, is much lower than 6 million.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
Both Turkish allies, Turkey is one of the main vehicles of US/NATO interests in the Middle East. NATO would love to green light a Turkish invasion of Iran right now.
Your example defeats itself because it shows the colonial powers never went as far as settler colonialism to replace native populations. Unlike the Ottomans that committed genocide against non-Turks and non-Muslims with the intention of ethnically cleansing those nations completely.
The entire history to the Ottoman Empire is the intentional destruction of Christians and other non-Muslims. The Middle East is currently 94% Muslim; it was once 0%. How do you think that happened? Oh and your beloved Turkey signed an alliance with Nazi Germany and was to join the war once an Axis victory became clear. The Holocaust is not really related to colonial history anyway.
edwardkenw4y@reddit
Boy, you sure do love deflection as a debate tactic. You've done it at least twice in 3 comments or so. How is Turkey to be blamed for The Gulf War, The US invasion of Iraq, multiple wars in Lebanon in the last 40 years (hint - Turkey didn't participate or start any of them), because those conflicts are a big reason why the Middle East is in dissaray today.
The same way Christianity became a majority religion in Europe. But Christianity is probably a naturally-occuring phenomenon according to you.
Again, your original argument was that the Ottomans were inherently more genocidal than the European empires, you didn't mention settler colonialism anywhere.
And yeah, the British endorsed the Zionist movement with the Balfour declaration in 1917, while knowing that the Zionist objectives could only be achieved with armed force. Zionism is, by the way, a settler colonialist ideology that aims to ethnically cleanse all of Palestine from the native population to make way for Jewish settlement. The British, in effect, put a stamp on the Nakba and the present-day genocide of the Palestinian people.
The French fought against the Algerian anti-colonial and liberation movement largely because they considered Algeria to be an integral part of France, and they had French settlers there as well. That's why they fought for eight years until 1962.
"My beloved Turkey"? LOL, LMAO even.
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
First you brought up the British and French empires, then immediately deflected the entire history of western empires in general, and even somehow included Nazi Germany despite it not being a colonial power. At the same time, you apparently were under the impression I couldn’t mention anything before the 20th century Ottoman empire.
Christianity first spread in Europe through ordinary civilians and was adopted by political leaders later. Islam however has always primarily spread through invasion and coercion.
Those are the same thing. The Ottomans (and most Muslim empires) tried to destroy native ethnicities and cultures by forcing them to convert to Islam under oppression as a lower class of people, and at the end outright killed everyone who wasn’t a Muslim and settled their homeland with Muslims.
Look at most of the Armenian Highlands or Greek Anatolia, the native population was entirely killed and replaced with Turks or other Muslims. This was the fate of most Christian communities under Islamic empires over a longer period of time, though the Ottomans were the first to do it on an industrial scale.
You will be hard pressed to find an example of this complete destruction of a people in most other places in the world, including western colonial empires. That is why it’s greatly offensive and false to suggest they were worse than the Ottomans. Look at any modern country that was previously a colony, and the population has mostly massively multiplied for what it was ~200 or more years ago as well as enjoys all kinds of technological and scientific advancements. This is the complete opposite of Ottomans/Turks slaughtering whole nations.
And this is primarily because western colonialism was driven by a freemasonic agenda to try bringing a higher standard of civilization to these people, these elites didn’t want to actually destroy any group although did expect to keep ruling over. In fact the great irony is that the masonic Western colonialism empires admired the Ottomans and Islam in general because it was a great example on how to build an apartheid empire where one group rules over many others while gradually forcing them into a monoculture that is easy to rule over.
So why were Bosniaks helping the Germans and taking part in massacres like those committed by the Ustase?
Few-Audience9921@reddit
I love how I can just exist and piss you off
VisibleReport5008@reddit
Middle east is a mess largely because of cold war
altonaerjunge@reddit
Could you give an example excolony? More Like 5 excolonies per country who are triving ?
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
If they still exist and weren’t erased by settler colonialism, then they aren’t “hundreds of times worse” than anywhere the Ottoman Empire invaded.
basedfinger@reddit
I disagree with that statement. The British and French were just as brutal as the Ottomans. They only had more infrastructure and resources to realise their colonial ambitions.
BluBolshevik@reddit
Which is why they weren’t as bad in practice. That’s the point
basedfinger@reddit
fair point. but if they had the power, they would've been just as destructive. i also disagree with the notion that they were "uniquely" brutal however and i think that idea is rooted in orientalism and western chauvinism.
(also some fascist got triggered because i dared to criticize his favourite genocidal empire lmao. that guys been harassing me for a while now, and he calls me a "self-hating turk" because i dare to acknowledge the war crimes of me country)
Umt_Productions_173@reddit
La uglum çok mu celal şengör izledin de Balkanlara yağcılık çekiyorsun
basedfinger@reddit
yarrakullah
Right_Falcon_4291@reddit
Criticizing genocidal empire is one thing, downplaying the atrocities of giant colonial empires is another. Nothing can compare to reducing a race into animals that can be kept in zoos
basedfinger@reddit
i am not downplaying the actions of either. i don't think either were better than the other
Right_Falcon_4291@reddit
Saying they’re as cruel as the ottoman empire is downplaying colonial empire’s atrocities
basedfinger@reddit
i think the perception of the ottomans as "uniquely evil" is rooted in western exceptionalism and orientalism
Right_Falcon_4291@reddit
They weren’t just evil. After the industrial revolution the colonial empires internalized the idea that the white race is superior to others to a point that they saw other races as literal animals and that idea is still prevalent even today. What makes the Ottoman Empire less cruel is that they weren’t affected by that mindset because they weren’t affected by the Industrial Revolution. It’s pointless to speculate that the ottomans would be just as cruel as English or French if it was a colonial power because it just wasn’t
ciciadam@reddit
Ömrün boyunca ezik bir ucube olarak yaşayıp yalnız başına öleceksin
Sabeneben@reddit
Adam boktan pornolar paylaşıyor ana hesabından lmao
basedfinger@reddit
en azından faşist değilim
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 1 of r/AskBalkans "Keep it civil". Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
If not, try to refrain from using this type of language.
Lively discussion is alright, but personal attacks, insults, hate, chauvinism and/or bigotry towards other users or their input will not be tolerated.
Cheers.
basedfinger@reddit
yine mi sen, amk milloş faşisti, bir bitmedi
goranlepuz@reddit
I wonder what measurement techniques are us to calculate this "hundreds of times worse". Especially "hundreds".
edwardkenw4y@reddit
Figure of speech on my part. They're not literally one hundred times worse, but they are significantly worse than the Ottomans (this is not a compliment to the Ottomans btw, they were still very bad).
The reasons that western colonial powers were worse than the Ottomans are very simple: They had more influence over the rest of the world, and they were technologically, industrially and militarily superior over the Ottomans. This is why I said "could ever hope to be" in my original comment.
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
British Formal Colonies:
Singapoor, Hong Kong, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Ireland, United States.
Ottoman Formal Colonies:
Bulgara, Serbia, Greece, Tunis, Syria, Iraq.
Is there a contest ?
Born-Till-1738@reddit
Um, there's many more colonies. India. Pakistan. Palestine. Sudan. Zimbawe.Bangladesh. Myanmar.
South Africa is also a pretty bad country.
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
South Africa is also a pretty bad country.
Give me a better country in Africa.
Born-Till-1738@reddit
Seychelles, Mauritius
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
UK colonies and tax havens.
Born-Till-1738@reddit
The UK colonised most of the world dingus
edwardkenw4y@reddit
Why are India, Pakistan and Palestine, for example, excluded from your list of former British colonies? Just curious. It totally doesn't have anything to do with weakening your argument, right?
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
Because UK had how much 50+ formal colonies same as i have excluded Kosovo Bosnia Albania etc From The Ottomans.
Ambitious-Cat-5678@reddit
South Africa, really? And Singapore and Ireland are self-made nations with also advantageous geography for the former. The rest of the colonies barring Hong Kong are settler colonies where most of the population is now Europeans.
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
What most of the poulation in Greece was Greek in Bulgaria Bulgarian in Serbia Serbian what is your point?
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
Ottomans didn't have any colonies.
menina2017@reddit
So true!
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Greetings,
Your post/comment was removed from r/AskBalkans for not following rule #4 "Post in English". Posts and top-level comments should be in English, so please translate whatever you had to say.
*Exceptions are posts flaired "Controversial" where all comments are to be made in English.
Cheers.
FruitAromatic@reddit
Ion know about that chief 🤣 plenty of atrocities commited by the ottomans that are barbaric
Born-Monday@reddit
Hope you are just ragebaiting... right?
CoronaryStenosis@reddit
Merhaba u/edwardkenw4y ! How’s the weather in Turkey these days?
Worried-Ad-4132@reddit
He is from serbia bro
Adventurous-Coast342@reddit
He’s a bosniak that complains about islamophobia.
edwardkenw4y@reddit
I don't see how that's relevant to my argument.
edwardkenw4y@reddit
I have no idea, you tell me
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
The people of Balkans need the Ottoman demonization for their basic national myths. Because without this, these people simply don't exist. Reality does not matter here. But of course, in objective reality, the enlightened Ottomans fought the evil empires of Europe to the benefit of all.
Dubl33_27@reddit
Yes, because children tributes were a myth.
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
You mean military recruitment?
Truth is, families gladly sent one of their many sons to jannisaries, not just because it's one less mouth to feed, but because of the huge privileges the position carried. There are many recorded feuds between families because they wanted to be the one to send their kid, countless records of families trying to bribe officials to pick their sons, etc.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
maybe musoijm families bud. but then you were one crying when ottomans collapsed followed by albanians.
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
Jannissaries recruited almost exclusively from Christian families.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I respect your level of trolling
Tonyukuk09@reddit
One thing people often miss is that harm usually comes more easily from those closest to you. You know them better, you control them more, and conflicts are more personal. Toward the “other,” rule tends to be more pragmatic.
That’s part of why Ottoman rule is remembered differently than later European empires. During the fall of Constantinople, the Byzantine naval commander Loukas Notaras famously said he would rather see a Turkish turban than a Latin hat in the city. That line didn’t come from admiration for the Ottomans, but from lived experience with Latin occupation.
For the Balkans, Ottoman rule was far from perfect, but it also wasn’t built on modern colonial logic, racial hierarchy, or total extraction. As long as taxes were paid, religion and daily life were largely left alone. Religious tolerance wasn’t accidental — it was part of how the system functioned.
Even the devshirme system, while ethically complex and not defensible by today’s standards, wasn’t comparable to European-style racial slavery or dehumanization. Many of those taken ended up with power and mobility they would never have had otherwise — which doesn’t make it good, but does make it different.
So yes, the Ottoman Empire caused real problems. But for many Balkan Christians, it also acted as a protective umbrella during weaker periods, rather than an empire designed to erase identities. When compared to what European empires later did — including things like human zoos — that distinction matters.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
serbians run awayt to western territories aka austria/hungary not vice versa
many of people you said had burning hatred for catholics whcih btw existed before saco of constionpole as well-massaacre of latins fdor example happened before.
ottomans took children as tax-give comaprasble austrian policy bud.
stop with whtie washing ottomans.
austriians didnt managed to erase idnetiries as well bud.who are you comparing to?
this btw doesnt mean austrians for example were good and noble.
Tonyukuk09@reddit
I think u cant understand what read, just read one more time. Maybe u can comprehend this time.
Ghost_Protocol147@reddit
Yes, it was, without a doubt.
Murat499@reddit
I mean u albanians at least gained kosovo out of ottoman domination no? Since before the ottomans the area was Serbian.
Ghost_Protocol147@reddit
No, we didn't gain Kosovo as you cannot gain something that already belonged to you.
Lands of Dardania have always been albanian no matter what Serbian propaganda likes to say.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
so we are just gonnas ignore historical dockuments on populaion of area.
Ghost_Protocol147@reddit
What historical documents exactly?
The area in its inception was ruled by Dardanians not by Slavs.
Slavs are not indigenous to the Balkans. That's all the history I need.
Citaku357@reddit
Serbs were never the majority in Kosovo
EternalyTired@reddit
There's literally 0 mentions of Albanians regarding Kosovo throughout history before the Ottomans. Not a single building, or archeological site.
Citaku357@reddit
Lol what are you talking about? You guys seriously believe in this bullshit that the ottomans brought us in the region?
EternalyTired@reddit
In Kosovo, yeah. They brought in tons of muslim Albanians after the war with Austria when the Serbs massively depopulated the area and moved north.
Ghost_Protocol147@reddit
Cry buddy.
Murat499@reddit
They were to say otherwise its historical revisionism, and im neither an albanian nor a Serbian.
Ok-Option-1568@reddit
murat abi I am giving you a chance to go learn history before I get in my Skenderbeu mood
Murat499@reddit
I mean I'm not saying its not your lands im just saying because of the ottomans this area over time became majority albanian and muslim
FlamesOfDespair@reddit
If you mean regained a place we already lived in sure. Albanians have always lived in the general area. We were just getting kicked from place to place depending on the mood of whatever power was strong at the time.
No-Wash-6204@reddit
Ottomans made balkans better. Don't blame Ottomans for the shits you guys did to your countries.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
how they make better?expplain it?
CROguys@reddit
It very much depends on the location and the time. I think many people nowadays lament the Ottoman occupation not just for its acts of tyranny, but for its stagnant economic management.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
that as well.they also fckd up literaracy as secondary thing.even for example semi freed serbia lagged behdin western occuipied vojvodina.
DrBishop1903@reddit
''Civilised'' west btw
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
hate or love it most of tech and many customs and way how we see the world from last few cenrturies are greatly influnced by them. not cause they were good btw but more succcefull.they shaped modern civilisaion.heck commuinism whcih western cpasitlsit coutnries hate also came from west in its most known form-marxism.
Yavannia@reddit
Another Ottoman empire laundry machine thread. That's why every single balkan country revolted multiple times, because they were so damn nice.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
do you think the west was better?
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
For example manu serbs run away to austria/hungary not vice verca.for most of them it was.do with that what you want.
west was imparilsit and evil as well no doubt.
Pintau@reddit
Imperial Russia definitely did, and the Ottomans had open slave markets right up to the mid 19th century, which may as well be human zoos
Hazmadu@reddit
Slavery in the Ottoman Empiere isn’t as widespread as you think it is and not even close to its practices in Western Europe and America. If you want to make the narrative that the Ottomans did slavery as well you have to compare it to slavery practiced in the 11th century in Europe not 19th century slavery. In the west blacks were placed in zoos not because they are slaves. The belief was that they were inferior “animals” that had to guided by the “white race” to survive. Whether you look at Asia, Africa or Europe before the 16th century you can’t ever see a practice as cruel and disgusting as this so don’t try to lessen your crimes by making connections where there are none.
ALYMSTFY@reddit
Exactly, people need to differentiate between types of slavery and read about the history of slavery before leaving a comment. American slavery was the absolute worst in every aspect. In Europe people were enslaved because they were in debt, prisoners of war etc, they were NOT enslaved because of their skin color.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
yup,those slaves on markets in arabian and tueky were happy they werent black in usa...
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Slave markets aren’t zoos they are pet shops
LibertyChecked28@reddit
If you exclude the Circuassians, the Massacres, the systematic grape, the sadistic body mutilation, the sheer pettiness to result as far as infanticide, the even pettier sadistic tendency to place "ceremonial meaning" behind actions like [the presentation of severed heads before the Bay] who had to be done by the very fucking son of the guy who got beheaded, their innovative "industrialised corpse-disposal tactic" involving swamps & sh!t ton of quicklime post massacres, the skull towers & corpse displays, and how once one of their Sultans had gathered few hundred Serbian women with the goal to be publicly graped by few hundred north Africans as to "breed more efficient generation of servants for his court"- I mean is it really that bad in accordance to the overly based criterials NGO's with goal for universal Colonial Whitewashing?
In my village we have 200y old story of a woman who had suffered miscarriage while trying to take the rotting corpse of her brother off a pike in the centre of the town, like right during when she was placing the body down- but ehh, [totally normal peasant things] am I right?
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Yes, all of that happened. But you think it didn’t happen in the other empires in Europe?
LibertyChecked28@reddit
To that extend it did via the exact same tactics- fuck no, they had other tools for oppression varying stages/schools of tought which dictated the severity of that oppression, and varying "Germanic" cultural nuances which dictated if they ware going to be semi-opressive towards other peoples or Germany 2.0 in terms of 17th century racial theories.
When you want to look at "other Empires who could have done the same" you should take a look at Austro-Hungary, Italy, Russia, and whatever other Arabic caliphate there was at the time because those ware the contenders for occupying our geographic region. And I highly doubt Austria & Russia would surpass the Ottomans in terms of brutality given the history of those 3.
Old_Bowler_465@reddit
The same russians who comitted multiple genocide with a relarively good success rate ?
LibertyChecked28@reddit
What the Russians committed pales in comparison to what the Ottomans considered as "tolerance".
Russia nowadays has 195 ethnicities, Turkey on the other hand purged everything to a single digit number + recent foreign imports.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
In defence of ottomans, they lost of most colonial territoires and faced hostily minorities in what they saw as core territories.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I mean without the Ottomans most likely the Byzantine empire would most likely have remained the big powerful player that it was before that. And without Constantinople failing also Russia would not have existed as it does today - they only dared anoint their own patriarch etc. when Constantinople fell, seeing themselves as the last bastion of Orthodox Christianity. The failing Bulgarian state at the time would have likely just been absorbed by the Byzantines and as fellow Orthodox Christians the Bulgarians would have just been normal Roman citizens.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
With the Venetians bullying them to the point of bankruptcy, the Crusaders kicking them out of their very Empire twice, and the Byzantine tradition of radical, self-destructing treachery that fails to see the forest for the trees (ft. Theodora Kantakouzene). It's highly unlikely that Byzantine would have survived in any timeline unless they somehow manage to secure monopoly over gunpower and have the foresight to salt Western Europe before it comes to bite them in the arse.
Russia would have expanded as it had did regardless of anything thanks to the wonders of Muskets, modern army logistics, and those itchy Kazars/Tatars/Bashkirs which would in the name of Russian expansion the hardest out of everyone so long as they get a piece of the pie.
Bulgaria and Serbia have the exact same shelf-life as Poland regardless of anything.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
If the Ottomans could could successfully hold and stabilise the Byzantine wealth and lands to become a major player in Europe and the Middle East, what makes you think the OG could not?
Dangerous-Weird-8534@reddit
Well, you have right, but you forgot one thing, modern colonial genocide is by far better orchestrated than the past Ottoman savagery. Of course for the victims like serbians, bulgarians, moldavians or walachians couldn't be worse than that, but fore example regions of India under british rule was periodically in state of artificial induced famine so the wheat speculators from the City could manipulate the global market in their favour, best Crown's precious stones are stolen from ther and South Africa, during the belgian colonial regime the so called Congo Free State was largely depopulated by 10.000.000 people during the exploitation of cotton, latex and minerals, germans have comitted genocides of herrero and oromo populations during their pacification campaign of Namibia and so on, and that's only in the second half of XIXth century. Then you have the ongoing genocide of the american and canadian indians long after the end of the indian wars in the XIXth century etc. I don't wan't to say that the Turks weren't barbaric because they were, what I wan't to say is that the industrial revolution have permited a more scientific aproach to the genocide that the direct involvement of the dominating power.
Tasty_Intention2801@reddit
briitish rule was periodically in state of artificial induced famine so the wheat speculators from the City could manipulate the global market in their favour,
give proof of govemrnet plan to arrifically induce famine.sepcualtyions on wheat happened all aorudn the world.
best Crown's precious stones are stolen from ther and South Africa,
goes with conquests.turks "stole" as well.whats that doing here as we are doing atrocities?
, during the belgian colonial regime the so called Congo Free State was largely depopulated by 10.000.000 people during the exploitation of cotton,
nope,that was during leopold free state rule.belgiian nnexaion came after and cause of mismangmentr.also it was about rubber not cotton.
germans have comitted genocides of herrero and oromo populations during their pacification campaign of Namibia and so on,
yup they did.not only who did it and casltuies for example pale to dzungar genocide of china and later genocide of nazis whcih better fit your western uniquness scale.heck russians coampign agaisnt circasians is of grereater scale but rarely mentioned.
Then you have the ongoing genocide of the american and canadian indians long after the end of the indian wars in the XIXth century etc.
subjugatying tribes and expanding was norm aroudn the world-russia expanded on east that way as well.as perr more familair thjings read about treastmen of rebleioous albanisn tribes and villages in balkan wars or designs on deporting albanians to turkey or what derion asnd racims was nornal tlakin about them.btw albanian hate towards slavs also exist on same if not more level.
while you coudl make poitns on many western projects beign of larger scale they arent ultra unique.
SilverThink9341@reddit
WTF??!?
CoronaryStenosis@reddit
Some of my friends joke that r/balkans is 90% Turkish users and you can’t say they are wrong with these kinds of posts lmfao.
The Ottoman Empire brought pillaging and plunder and subjugation that no one wanted. At least the other European empires cared about their people and didn’t treat them like second class citizens if they weren’t Turkish and Islamic
Skylin34night@reddit
Most important thing is that Turkey denies Armenian genocide and other atrocities done to other christian minorities.
CoronaryStenosis@reddit
ur gonna get downvoted, this Turkish subreddit also denies those things lol
Skylin34night@reddit
I really wonder how these extremists guys were kept in NATO. They are just like any other Arab nation mentality. Nothing with European mentality.
Cute_Lil_Cupcake@reddit
Notice how you sound extremely fucking discriminatory and ignorant? First of all, nobody denied what happened to the Armenians or Christians, you guys also didn't get downvoted. Neither did I downvote you by the way. So stop trying to claim that this sub is "fiLLed WiTh tuRkiSh geNociDe DeniErs!!"
But saying we are "just like any other Arab nation mentality" is not only wrong (as not all Arab nations have the 'same mentality' to begin with, plus we are very different from each other) but also just sounds like you know absolutely nothing about Middle Easterner countries' politicies. Please do some research before speaking. Turkiye is also no way near comparable to "Arab nation"s. Whatever that means.
Skylin34night@reddit
Turkey has Arabian background culture. You used as official language ottoman turkish, a half Arabian, half turkish language and Arabian script until 1927.
TechnicianTimely2879@reddit
You really think you have the european mentality? Seems a bit funny to me.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
Isnt op bulgarian though?
CoronaryStenosis@reddit
I appreciate that at least your flair is accurate
Delgree-23@reddit
I’m sorry that you failed to find the echo chamber you were looking for fam
volcano156@reddit
Lool. According to the west, slavs were considered ‘Untermenschen’, remember what germans did especially on the eastern front in WWII
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
They cared about their people? Why do you think things like the French Revolution and similar happened? They were serfs for the most part that had to get a permission from their lord to even marry or go to another village…
edwardkenw4y@reddit
Yeah, they just exported their brutality and cruelty to their colonies instead.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I am literally Bulgarian and hate the Ottoman Empire lol
I have just been reading about the other empires recently and they are not angels either. You may ask their former colonies what they think about them…
Weird_Gap_2243@reddit
The other European empires were easily worse.
STRYKERECLYPSE@reddit
Ancient Greece ?
Craniummon@reddit
And here we go again
r/PORTUGALCYKABYLAT.
Veyrah@reddit
Most of the grey countries were zoos themselves.
Poorpartofeuropean@reddit
One day we will learn how did Portugal teleport away from the Balkans next to Spain
Da_Kold1@reddit
It's in the name Port-ugal, as in tele-port-tation :p
funfacts_82@reddit
fixed that for you
RossMxx@reddit
Portugal, one of us.
Positive_Advisor6895@reddit
There is no such thing as a good empire. It is an intrinsicly oppressive formation. That being said the Ottomans are among the least evil imo. Right behind ancient persia or maybe some dynasties of China.
Sea-Temporary-6995@reddit
Bs map. Ottoman Muslims and Jews were the largest slave traders for centuries. They were smart enough to sterilize most of their slaves so they wouldn't procreate and grow more numerous than them.
FuzzyAmbassador663@reddit
West always had everything...
DontCareHowICallMe@reddit
Nah, but the ottomans were better than most of Europe at the start and then fell off and comparatively became worse
SuspiciousShock8294@reddit
C'mon now... No need to be rude about it! We would have had a zoo with humans, if we were able to afford such a thing! I mean, we were never what you would traditionally call a "rich country".
Also, i don't know if it counts for anything, but it sure felt like living in a zoo here in my country, more than once in our history. And people here did/do act accordingly - Like animals, more often than not.
And no... I wouldn't really entirely blame the Ottoman Empire for all of that, even though it is quite convenient to "blame everything" on someone or something that happened a really, really f'cking long time ago.
righthemicolectomy@reddit
we had a human zoo bro its called ćacilend
EntertainerLivid800@reddit
Vas dvojica niste vidjeli svijeta to je jasno
righthemicolectomy@reddit
nemam pare
EntertainerLivid800@reddit
Pa onda ne seri po svojoj državi, malo je bezveze
smierdek@reddit
well, if there was no poland on the map and poland was divided and governed by other powers like germans and russians can you actually really say they were polish initiatives? because this is what this map suggests, especially with the post-wwii borders
AnnaJan_@reddit
Not human zoos but genocides, yes we had.
Beneficial_Field9097@reddit
Yes, because under the ottoman empire, women are second class citizen, non-mohamedans are slaves and gays are killed.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Women were second class citizens everywhere, most of western peasantry was also „slaves“ - serfs, and being gay was outlawed by Atatürk after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
BeautifulSpace1828@reddit
Crappy map. Russia and most eastern countries also had human zoos. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370305783_10_A_Century_of_Elision_Ethnic_Shows_in_Saint_Petersburg_and_Moscow_1879-1914
Binary_Bowser@reddit
my city is a human zoo i fucking hate these people
Karelia606@reddit
Again with lies and ruSSian propaganda. They had human zoos just like other countries. Calling them "ethnic displays" or whatever doesn't change the fact that they kept people inside animal enclosures (with animals) and force them to do tricks and shows. People died during those "voluntary" stays.
There are photos, posters, postcards and newspapers from those events. Just google it, search for yourself or check older topic on reddit where you can find links and screenshots.
Nick_mgt@reddit
The ottoman empire was pretty chill on their treatment of us, excluding the early decades of the 20th century. The reason why we blame them is because we never had the chance to develop and be closer culturally to the rest of Europe. Islands in Greece like the Cyclades, Corfu, Crete etc, are night and day compered to the rest of the country, especially the north that was liberated last. Only the south, although extremely poor at the time (and now🤙), saw some "Europeanization" in the 1800s as they gained independence.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
when your entire worldview is dickriding "europeanness" as the measure of how good something is, I can understand why your view is so simplistic
Nick_mgt@reddit
But they do live better than any of us...
foodforkitties@reddit
That’s not about Europe VS Anything, what you’re talking about is just wealthy vs poor. The solution for you is simple, get rich or move elsewhere to get rich.
foodforkitties@reddit
What are you talking about. Yes “chill” in comparison to other situations maybe, but people don’t oppose to being under occupation because they’re missing their chance of being “Europeanized”. This is exactly what the post is not about? The perception that (old money) Europeans are the only civilized people.... it’s a ridiculous joke, a made-up story. “Especially the north..” wth, much of the north’s beauty and multicultural vibrance was actually lost and undermined AFTER the liberation - and continued to be severely underfunded in later years. But it is still beautiful and authentic, with many of its admired landmarks dating back to Ottoman rule.
PaintressLeia@reddit
Genocide. The Armenian genocide[a] was the systematic destruction of the Armenian people and identity in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. Spearheaded by the ruling Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), it was implemented primarily through the mass murder of around one million Armenians during death marches to the Syrian desert and the forced Islamization of others, primarily women and children.
Slavery. For centuries, large vessels on the Mediterranean relied on European galley slaves supplied by Ottoman and Barbary slave traders. Hundreds of thousands of European Christians were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries.[30][31]
During the height of the Barbary slave trade in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, the Barbary states, with the exception of Morocco, were nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, but de facto independent. Many slaves captured by the Barbary corsairs were sold eastward into Ottoman territories before, during, and after Barbary's period of Ottoman rule.[32][page needed][33][page needed] While most of the slave raids occurred in the Western Mediterranean, some raiders plundered as far north as Ireland, the Faroe Islands, and Iceland.
The Barbary slave trade was ended with the Barbary Wars in the early 19th century.The Black Sea slave trade were a major supply source of slaves to the Ottoman Empire. The center of the Black Sea slave trade were the Crimea. The Crimean Khanate conducted regular slave raids in to Eastern Europe, known as Crimean-Nogai slave raids in Eastern Europe. The captives were taken to the Crimea, were they were divided between the Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire, since the Crimean Khanate was the vassal of the Ottoman Empire.
The Crimean Khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East until the late eighteenth century. In a series of slave raids euphemistically known as the "harvesting of the steppe", Crimean Tatars enslaved East Slavic peasants.[37] The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia suffered a series of Tatar invasions, the goal of which was to loot, pillage, and capture slaves, the Slavic languages even developed a term for the Ottoman slavery (Polish: jasyr, based on Turkish and Arabic words for capture - esir or asir).[38][39] The borderland area to the south-east was in a state of semi-permanent warfare until the 18th century. It is estimated that up to 75% of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freed slaves.[40] The 17th century Ottoman writer and traveller Evliya Çelebi estimated that there were about 400,000 slaves in the Crimea but only 187,000 free Muslims.[41] Polish historian Bohdan Baranowski assumed that in the 17th century the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (present-day Poland, Ukraine and Belarus) lost an average of 20,000 yearly and as many as one million in all years combined from 1500 to 1644.[41]
A Hutterite chronicle reports that in 1605, during the Long Turkish War, some 240 Hutterites were abducted from their homes in Upper Hungary by the Ottoman Turkish army and their Tatar allies, and sold into Ottoman slavery.[42][43] Many worked in the palace or for the Sultan personally,
And the list is LOOOOONG.
Nick_mgt@reddit
Thanks for all the info, that is new stuff to me (except the genocide) Let me ne clear though, an empire, any empire, is never good and I never implied that the ottomans where anything other than oppressors. But I still believe that western European empires where usually, the literal embodiment of the devil. I believe that they were lesser evil compared to the french or British or dutch etc. The only time the ottomans reached "British" levels of evilness was with their multiple genocides is 1900s, 1910s,1920s.
PaintressLeia@reddit
Facts are against your assertions.
KhanofSeljuks@reddit
The Crimean accusation needs more nuance. The Slavs were beginning to enroach on the Tatars way before the Slave trade began. It was the Rus’ that attacked and destroyed the Khazar Khanate which the Seljuks and Tatars had deep connections to in Southern Russia and Ukraine.
It was the violent Slavic/Viking migrations that started the conflict. Turkic peoples and steppe nomads in general had always occupied the steppes of Russia and Ukraine.
PaintressLeia@reddit
I haven't posted the most chocking part : the African slavery made by Turkish!
I mean I don't understand how their trolls dare coming and say "we are nicer and chiller".
They continue killing Kurds. The have made a genocide against the Armenians.
And yes, russian did a genocide on Crimean tatar.
Yavannia@reddit
Yes the ONLY time, that's why all Balkan nations revolted multiple times before that, it's because they were so nice.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I mean weren’t the Greeks the rich merchant bois of the Ottomans with their ships and stuff? The Sultan even sent his Greek bois to be his vassal kings in Romania.
Nick_mgt@reddit
Over the years I realize we had it better off that the rest of you. I don't know to what extend though
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
unpopular opinion I think many rich and powerful Greeks (or rather Byzantines?) especially in Constantinople had it so good that they converted to Islam and became Turks. Can’t really explain white Turkish people otherwise…
PaintressLeia@reddit
There is an explanation. It is called slavery.
The Black Sea slave trade were a major supply source of slaves to the Ottoman Empire. The center of the Black Sea slave trade were the Crimea. The Crimean Khanate conducted regular slave raids in to Eastern Europe, known as Crimean-Nogai slave raids in Eastern Europe. The captives were taken to the Crimea, were they were divided between the Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire, since the Crimean Khanate was the vassal of the Ottoman Empire.
The Crimean Khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East until the late eighteenth century. In a series of slave raids euphemistically known as the "harvesting of the steppe", Crimean Tatars enslaved East Slavic peasants.[37] The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia suffered a series of Tatar invasions, the goal of which was to loot, pillage, and capture slaves, the Slavic languages even developed a term for the Ottoman slavery (Polish: jasyr, based on Turkish and Arabic words for capture - esir or asir).[38][39] The borderland area to the south-east was in a state of semi-permanent warfare until the 18th century. It is estimated that up to 75% of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freed slaves.[40] The 17th century Ottoman writer and traveller Evliya Çelebi estimated that there were about 400,000 slaves in the Crimea but only 187,000 free Muslims.[41] Polish historian Bohdan Baranowski assumed that in the 17th century the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (present-day Poland, Ukraine and Belarus) lost an average of 20,000 yearly and as many as one million in all years combined from 1500 to 1644.[41]
A Hutterite chronicle reports that in 1605, during the Long Turkish War, some 240 Hutterites were abducted from their homes in Upper Hungary by the Ottoman Turkish army and their Tatar allies, and sold into Ottoman slavery.[42][43] Many worked in the palace or for the Sultan personally.
For centuries, large vessels on the Mediterranean relied on European galley slaves supplied by Ottoman and Barbary slave traders. Hundreds of thousands of European Christians were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries.[30][31]
During the height of the Barbary slave trade in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, the Barbary states, with the exception of Morocco, were nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, but de facto independent. Many slaves captured by the Barbary corsairs were sold eastward into Ottoman territories before, during, and after Barbary's period of Ottoman rule.[32][page needed][33][page needed] While most of the slave raids occurred in the Western Mediterranean, some raiders plundered as far north as Ireland, the Faroe Islands, and Iceland.
The Barbary slave trade was ended with the Barbary Wars in the early 19th century.During the early modern Crimean slave trade, the trade of Circassians from the Caucasus expanded and developed in to what was termed a luxury slave trade route, providing elite slaves to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East.[34][35] The Crimean slave trade was one of the biggest suppliers of concubines (female sex slaves) to the Ottoman Imperial Harem, and virgin slave girls (normally arriving as children) were given to the Sultan from local statesmen, family members, grand dignitaries and provincial governors, and particularly from the Crimean Khan; the Ottoman Sultan Ahmed III received one hundred Circassian virgin girl slaves as presents upon his accession to the throne.[36] When the Crimean slave trade was ended with the Annexation of the Crimean Khanate by the Russian Empire in the 18th century, the trade of Circassians was redirected from Crimea and went directly from the Caucasus to the Ottoman Empire, developing in to a separate slave trade which continued until the 20th century.[13]
Few-Audience9921@reddit
the overall effect is tiny
Few-Audience9921@reddit
the famously white greeks
-consilium-@reddit
Genetically they’re mostly Anatolian, Iranian, Caucasian - with very small influence from Europe itself
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
It may surprise you but the Byzantines were also Anatolian, Caucasian etc.
Caucasian is another word for white btw
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
and?
"Byzantines" r irrelevant.
-consilium-@reddit
Caucasian in the sense of being from the Caucasus not the American term for white people.
Turkic ethnic groups mostly are an Iranid race with some Mongolid influence + other stuff they picked up along the way. There are plenty of Iranians with fair skin and light coloured hair, much could also be said the same for people of the Levant.
Anatolian Greeks, on the other hand, are very much a Mediterranean people with olive skin and dark hair. I’m not saying that Turks don’t have Anatolian Greek influence but that influence is not the cause of fair skin in Turks.
echo_c1@reddit
What makes you think that Turkish people are not “white”? Turkish people are asiatic, not Middle Eastern. Although current Anatolian Turks are descendants of people native to Anatolia; 60% DNA shows Neolithic Anatolian Farmer Haplogroups.
And most of the Anatolian “Greek” people were actually indigenous Anatolians that were not Hellenic originally (Neolithic Anatolian Farmers). As Greek was Lingua Franca and they converted to become Christians, they were called Romans/Rhoumai. Mainland Greeks (more closer to European DNA) and Anatolian “Greeks” (Rhoumai) have different DNA composition. Some of those Anatolian people become Muslim and speak Turkish which became the Lingua Franca, but they weren’t “Greek” in the same way they are not Turkish ethnically.
What do you think happened to Hattians, Hittitians, Phrygians, Lydians, Galatians, Luwians, Hurrians etc.? Most of these people were native to Anatolia and they adopted to whatever language and religion and culture of that time. These people become Romans, then Turks.
Just like Turkic Proto Bulgars and modern Slavic Bulgarians doesn’t share genetic lineage, Anatolian Greek or Armenians or Turks are not monolithic ethnic group either. Most of the native Anatolians still live in Anatolia today, their name changed and that’s all.
https://youtu.be/xksXxoCY8SM
altonaerjunge@reddit
Because of the Assimilation of a Lot of Anatolian greeks, or What do you think the people where coming from ?
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Idk I thought Allah just created them like this yk
Nick_mgt@reddit
I also think that, but it wasn't greeks only, there were Armenians and other Slavs, anyone under the bysantine empire
Nick_mgt@reddit
My GOAT
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
(there's a statue in his honour, in SPB).
Kitchen_Lawyer6041@reddit
What about Rhodes?Did it develop better as an Italian and then fascist colony?
Nick_mgt@reddit
I think Rhoades is a very beautiful island. There is really no easy way to say if a place was developed to a satisfying degree 200 years ago unless you are a historian. I can tell from the neoclassical architecture that Italians poored money into it. That's a surface level thing though
Kitchen_Lawyer6041@reddit
I'm a bit confused.What do you mean by 200 years ago?It was an Italian colony between 1912-194, less than a 100 years ago, in the same period as the last Greek unification/liberation that you mentioned.That's why I brought it up.
Nick_mgt@reddit
It was a colony a long before that, hence that amazing castle that reminds you stuff that you see in central Europe. It was built by Byzantines initially but it was small, it turned into a whole castle under the crusaders, and under the Italians it turned into a palace. That was during the 14th century.
I talked about the castle more than I answered your question, I'm just dying for castles you know. (hope yall don't mind that awesome picture). It's worth noting, funnily enough, that it was the Italians who restored it during that small window of time you mentioned. I got to give it to them, they appreciate beauty and they make it too
Kitchen_Lawyer6041@reddit
As a side note, that's not really the typical castle you see in Central Europe.Those are much more depressing gothic style looking.
childofvenera@reddit
No human zoo's but they did take our women and children to be slaves. A slave is a slave, some of european ones were confided in zoo's and some of ottoman slaves were sent to fight in an army and die, or serve as sex slaves in harems.
Vallen_H@reddit
You forgot to paint Turkiye red.
ComradeAleksey@reddit
We say it was worse because we see it from the viewpoint of the oppressed. We were not Turks, so we recorded the atrocities against us.
On the other hand, when we think of the European empires we usually do not think of how a slave felt about them. We see the achievements, the grand wars and armies, the science, the technological progress etc.
If you are oppressed, it’s pretty shity in any empire, and there’s no reason to look at it as a competition.
Complete_Classroom_4@reddit
Greeks whining about Ottoman Empire is a huge oxymoron since it was mainly Greeks and Albanians who held upper ranks of the Ottoman Empire. Turks were literally called "etrak-i biidrak" by Ottoman elite, which means simply "idiot" and treated as such. Ottoman Empire was not an Anatolian Empire, it was a core Balkan Empire that used Anatolian Turks only to draft in wars where Balkan subjects were just fine by paying taxes. That's why by the 19th century non-muslims held most of the wealth in the Ottoman Empire. That's not my claim, you can basically read these from non-Turkish historian professors that studied Ottoman Empire.
Yours is probably result of state propaganda to make Greeks hate Turks.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
Even Turks in the Ottoman Empire were not happy.
ComradeAleksey@reddit
It's one think to not be happy, and another to be heavily oppressed.
Also the history of the Ottoman empire spans hundreds of years, so I'm sure there were periods of incredible prosperity for the Turkish populations.
Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit
Even your own goverment opressed you more than us
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
The Turkish people, not just the people of Istanbul, but all Turks in general, suffered from poverty and severe oppression, which led to several Anatolian rebellions known as the Celali rebellions.
Alevi and Shia Turks living in Anatolia either migrated to the Safavid state or rebelled in the lands where they lived; there was not much prosperity during those times either.
In recent times, they have become impoverished because they can no longer compete with foreign traders due to the Capitulations.
There were certainly prosperous regions in Anatolia, but Turks didn't live very differently from other peoples.
ComradeAleksey@reddit
Yes they did.
Being Muslim (the dominant religion) gave a person instant privileges.
Identifying with the dominant ethnicity resulted in the same benefits as well.
This isn't unique to the Ottoman empire. That's a constant in any country in the history of humanity.
Like I said. The plebs are always the plebs. But there are also people who are treated as slaves or/and inferior which was what we were discussing here.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
The Turks did not pay the cizye tax because they were Muslim, but the Ottomans constantly collected taxes from them for other reasons, and these were the initial causes of the Celali rebellions.
The reason Turks migrated to the Safavids was not solely due to their religious sects; it was because the Safavids used Turkish elements in their administration, while the Ottomans used converts or individuals who had served as statesmen for a long time. The state allowed anyone who was Sunni and Muslim to hold high positions regardless of ethnicity.
Anatolian Turks did not have special advantages; being Muslim was used in state affairs, but if you weren't Sunni, it probably wouldn't benefit you. The Janissaries, on the other hand, mostly governed the Ottoman state during that period.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
From what I have read, at least at the beginning while Western Europe was still feudal, living as an oppressed Christian in the Ottoman Empire still gave you a much better life than being a serf to some feudal lord.
rrrzrrr@reddit
And in Jewish history it is well known that living under Ottoman Empire was superior to living under Christian rule in both Western and Eastern Europe (by and large, with some exceptions)
ND7020@reddit
Being an oppressed Christian in the Ottoman Empire was certainly better than being a Muslim (basically impossible) or even non-majority Christian sect (for much of history) in the West. I think that’s pretty uncontroversial.
craft_some@reddit
Balkans during Ottoman empire WAS a human zoo. People from outside were shocked to how backwards the society was
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
They were also in awe in how beautiful and cultured one of the largest Ottoman cities - the Balkan Belgrade - was.
craft_some@reddit
Are u ironic or serious?
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Yeah especially Constantinople, Thessaloniki, and Belgrade as big trade hubs and cosmopolitan cities full of educated people and culture were very highly regarded in the West. The Ottoman Empire was very rich and participated fully in the „highlife“ of Europe until its end.
thatMrGecko@reddit
that's not what human zoo means tho
craft_some@reddit
Yeah its worse
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
All empires were exactly the same.
I guess it's easy for people to blame an empire of different religion, and at the same time forget everything about the spanish inquisition and the witch hunt.
(not so) fun fact: There was even an instruction's manual on how to treat witches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum
trupawlak@reddit
Iceland should have "had their population in human zoos" thx to Denmark
Yapludepatte@reddit
im so ashamed of my contry and wished more people knew about the shit we did.
Grzegeronin892@reddit
LIER! Poland had no human zoo
Moelis_Hardo@reddit
Well ✞ well ✞ well ✞....
Alban_A@reddit
You forgot the USA with New York and Chicago
n_o_r_s_e@reddit
It's always easy to regard and criticize the past from a modern perspective. Those that took part in the ethnographic expositions here in Norway in the past, were paid to take part on this, and had a work contract for the period they contributed. A few people from Africa were for some months taking part in ethnograpic expositions in the Norwegian capital where they showed traditional handcraft and were on display for visitors that could watch them in authentic village surroundings that was established for the event. The same was the case for Sami people from Norway that joined similar events in Northern America as well as in Europe to show off their culture. It can be regarded as racist in the sense that their culture could be experienced as more primitive, but it was a different time. The volunteers got paied however. The animals at the zoo get no work contract, no salery and have no saying. It's therefore a little difficult to compare "animal zoo" and "human zoo".
Even today we have museums where volunteers dress up as Stone Age or Bronze Age people, and show the type of handcraft that was done back and how they lived. Is that also wrong? Or to arrange Viking Age events? I'm sure that some of the visitors will regard those of the past as more primitive. But they were not.
Formal-Bat6246@reddit
The last one was ar Expo-58 in Bruxelles, so 1958 seems to be relatively close past. In 60s till end of 70s Denmark has been sterilized women of Greenland. Not so far as Bronze Age.
n_o_r_s_e@reddit
You're thinking of that quite a few Inuit women got intra uterine device inserted to reduce the number of birth outside of marriage (about 4500). Many of the women that gave birth were very young and unmarried. The campaigns of the use of condoms and prevention pills had showed no effect. There were born too many children compared to the facilities (kindergarten, school, health facilities etc). It was then someone in Denmark come up with the idea to take use of a more permanent birth control. Yes, it's a bad part of the past. I'm not defending this practice, but we need to aknowledge that we don't need to go that many decades back in time before things were done differently that what we feel is accessible today.
Formal-Bat6246@reddit
I undestand you and I would agree with bright future and that the approach, methods and main paradigm had now changed. I'm not so optimistic looking at modern world picture though, chaces of repeating something awful similar to things from the past is not avoided. I would say modern society is more experienced and has much more tools to control adenda and information channels to clean the field and hide real facts.
Oldmanscoffee@reddit
Tell me more about the swedish human zoos…
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Ask the Sami
Oldmanscoffee@reddit
Thanks, now I have some new reading
Ggood_Golly@reddit
Oh, the daily dose of putinistanian propaganda and discord sowing?
🖕🏻🇷🇺👎🏻
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
All hail Putin the sultan of the Ottoman Empire 🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
Sensitive-Emu1@reddit
If someone believes Europe has a better reputation than any other country, they are just kidding themselves. Crimes committed by Europeans are immense. Just go chat with ChatGPT and ask about them. The numbers will shock you. Also, you can ask about the punishments. Even today, Europeans think that they are superior to others; this mindset makes them super dangerous. They are killing others and feel that they are the righteous ones. Just check Congo Free State, and the Genocide of Indigenous peoples in the Americas.
Balkans are got educated and raised in a way that makes them hate the Ottoman Empire. This is inevitable; their national identity is mostly built on getting freedom from the Ottomans. It's so bad that in elementary schools, they are teaching how the Greeks killed Ottoman soldiers who were trying to get the smallest child, but they do not teach them Eastern Roman Empire was getting the oldest child from the same families. Which one is better? getting the oldest who takes care of the family with the purpose of using him as a cheap soldier, or getting the child who doesn't contribute to the household and raise him as an elite unit, then even allow him to hold important titles.
People judge history with today's values. You can find something to hate in any country.
mob74@reddit
❤️ to your healthy and sane point of view. I will not romanticize the Ottomans either; personally i find defending a dynasty pathetic, but wasn’t it also their empire? The home of Orthodox Churches as a religous center? Btw, our national identity is also built around getting freedom from the Ottomans. Contrary to the Balkan countries’ cliam, there was a narrative here in the primary schools that all the investments that have done was to the Balkans and the Middle East, not Anatolia and our poverty was because of this. Maybe we should ask a different question. Who was responsible for the nationalism ideals at the time of the collapse and who is responsible for the alt-right movements all over the world now? And who benefits, who loses?
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
„Wasn’t it also their Empire?“ is unfortunately a very ignorant thing to say. The Sultan supported the Orthodox Church so that he can himself control the Christians of the empire instead of letting Catholicism from Rome seep into the empire. And a strong Orthodox Church was in his interest - Christians were a source of high income for the state through the higher taxes and a source for elite soldiers through the inhumane Devshirne tax.
And yes, technically everybody had the rights/opportunities to raise to higher social ranks in the Ottoman Empire, especially compared to the west, but to achieve it you needed to assimilate into Islam and Turkish culture. So, in the case of my country, the Bulgarians that benefitted from the empire back then would be the descendants of modern-day Muslim Turks in Turkey (or the Turkish minority of Bulgaria itself). The Bulgarians that had a national revolution and created Bulgaria are the ones that preserved their culture and endured the oppression and discrimination.
floare_salbatica@reddit
Spoken like a real Turk.😅
Delgree-23@reddit
Did you even read it fam?
floare_salbatica@reddit
Every time I come across Turks talking about the past, the Narcissist's Prayer comes to my mind:
That didn’t happen. And if it did, it wasn’t that bad. And if it was, that’s not a big deal. And if it is, that’s not my fault. And if it was, I didn’t mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
Delgree-23@reddit
You don’t sound OK. Hope you get help soon. Praying for you.
floare_salbatica@reddit
I bet I'm better than people who deny genocides. ;)
Delgree-23@reddit
Have you heard me talk about a genocide?
floare_salbatica@reddit
No need to, we all know how it goes.
Delgree-23@reddit
That sounds like assumptions breeding prejudice. “We” all know how that goes too. I’ll pray for you harder. xx
floare_salbatica@reddit
Keep your prayers for yourself, "fam"
meyegon@reddit
Too late. She already prayed for you. Sorry.
floare_salbatica@reddit
🤡
Delgree-23@reddit
🙏
Delgree-23@reddit
Too late ❤️
weightliftcrusader@reddit
Not sure why you're mixing colonial history with "even today". Not sure you really know much about contemporary Europeans.
Sensitive-Emu1@reddit
Sure, let's categorize the history in a way that protects us. But only for Europe. We should still judge modern Turkey by the Ottoman Empire's past. Also, we should ignore holocaust because it was just one man's mistake. Doesn't present Europe. Hence, atrocities committed by the Allies in WW2 are not evil like the Dresden bombing because it was against Hitler.
weightliftcrusader@reddit
Huh?
That's all I'm referring to. None of what you are talking about is the doing of, or supported by, the vast majority of living Europeans. So I don't understand why are you talking about Europeans today.
Louitje1021999@reddit
Congo free state and the genocide of the Americas are two of the worst examples to prove your point lol. Both are mainly disease related and the actual killing in them was carried out by the native population ffs
stats_merchant33@reddit
European love to believe they are the most noble and morally people on this earth though, kissed by Jesus personally, everyone of them and they are kinda vocal about it when not checked properly.
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
Europe other country ?????
Plutarch_von_Komet@reddit
How about you put on a flair?
RiriaaeleL@reddit
Yeah I don't know what to say bro, if those guys didn't want their hats nailed to their heads they could've just taken them of you know?
FilipeStraw@reddit
Portugal had zoos. This image is wrong
Plastic-Yesterday719@reddit
Guys, actually Turks should be enemy to Ottomans , already this was.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
The most fundamental element of the Ottoman Empire was the Turks.
Delgree-23@reddit
No. And it wasn’t even called the Ottoman Empire by the monarchy. It was Eastern Roman Empire, and the dynasty relied heavily on devşirme janissaries who were taken from their families as little boys in exchange for services provided, and those boys were almost always from Christian families.
Turks in the ethnic sense were almost all farmers or low level soldiers of the empire. They were granted no freedom to choose (as was the norm for all empires back then).
So, no, the “Ottomans” relied heavily on mostly Hungarian, Bulgarian, Kosovan, Serbian etc. for the majority of state and military affairs.
Glittering_Spot_2695@reddit
Everything you said here is a half truth. Monarchy called the empire "the great state" or "state of islam" or "grate state of the kin of osman" mostly. "Eastern Roman empire" was Byzantium. Turkish dynasties like the mamluk sultans or danishmends also kept their status after they became ottoman domain. They even got some pasha's in the government at some point. A lot of "ayans" were also Turkish and wealthy. Also the religious authorities like "kadi"s and "muftis" were especially turks. Those "kosovans serbians etc" were also converted Muslims and they all deemed themselves as muslims and spoke Turkish. They were only preferred in governmental affairs over ethnic turks to prevent their families gaining power over the government. Ottomans never favoured any race over turks they favoured sunni muslims over the others. You're probably a secular turk fed up with some revisionist bs, don't buy into that shit.
Delgree-23@reddit
I referred to ethnicities, not religious and national identities. The dynasty itself was the farthest thing from ethnic Turks.
If you must know, I’m a libertarian.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
The main military force of the Ottoman Empire was the Siphails, while the Janissaries were used less frequently but were an elite unit.
The Sipahis made up the majority of the army; they weren't all Turkish, but the composition varied depending on the region they were drawn from: Kurdish, Arab, Turkish, Albanian...
The languages used in state affairs varied by region, but the Ottoman Empire used Turkish for most treaties and letters.
The purpose of the devshirme system was to train individuals skilled according to Turkish and Muslim culture.
In order to establish a permanent presence in the non-Muslim regions it conquered, the Ottomans settled Turks there, and this worked for a long time.
In the Ottoman Empire, Turkish beys (chieftains) held influential positions for a long time. During the reign of Mehmed II, the Empire began to place more emphasis on central authority, but the raiding beys continued to be effective in warfare for a considerable period.
Delgree-23@reddit
Nice GPT output. But doesn’t negate the fact that the most fundamental element of the Ottoman Empire weren’t actually Turks at all, but the ways in which they approached multiple ethnicities in order to assimilate them into collective subjects of the monarchy. Turks simply didn’t matter as much as you implied they did.
If your next comment is AI generated again, I’ll simply not engage.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
I haven't used AI, but if your opinion hasn't changed, I don't care.
PaintressLeia@reddit
Again this fake against European nations ?
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Ah yes, the western colonial empires used to be angels, they would never.
seddard@reddit
It's a fascist zionist troll who thinks his message history is hidden.
First claims it's fake,
then says others also done it when confronted,
then says others actually didn't have zoos but slave markets and claim it's worse,
thinks we are dumb enough to think Europeans didn't have slave trade and markets,
then will google anyone's country for whataboutism.
PaintressLeia@reddit
As a lot of others redditors have told you, Ottoman empire and Russia also had human zoos.
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
Wrong.
PaintressLeia@reddit
True.
“ARE WE SOME KIND OF HAGENBECKS?”: PEOPLE IN THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE’S ZOOS
Maria Leskinen
Institute for Slavic Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences 32A Leninskiy Av., Moscow, Russia marles70()mail.ru
Abstract: The article analyzes the phenomenon of “human zoos” (or “ethnic shows” / “living exhibitions”) in Russian cities (St Petersburg, Moscow) in the second half of the 19th and early 20th centuries. This kind of demonstration of representatives of non-European “savage” peoples in their “natural conditions” was widespread in Europe at the time. “Living human exhibitions” of Russian inorodtsy (reindeer herders, indigenous non-Slavic peoples from of the Russian North) in the 1870s to 1910s were mentioned in several Soviet articles from the 1940s on pre-revolutionary history of the oldest Russian zoos, as well as in contemporary Russian studies on entertainment and leisure in the urban Russian landscape at the beginning of the 20th century. These shows are declared as being similar to the “negro villages” or to the Dahomean Amazon show in Western Europe. Notes of these cases, however, lacked details and verifiable information (such as exact dates or printed publications) of such events. At this (early) stage of the study, no information about such representations in zoos (as it was presented in historiography) has been discovered. There are no eyewitness references about “ethnic exhibitions” of inorodtsy, neither in the Russian literature of this time nor in memoirs. However, research has established that, during the 19th to 20th century, the inhabitants of the Russian capital could see Samoyeds, their reindeers and their chums on the Neva-river when the Samoyeds came to work during Sviatki or Maslenitsa holidays; for Moscow residents, such entertainment became popular only at the beginning of the 20th century, but it took place precisely in the zoo — as collected visual sources from 1907 and 1911 reflect. The phenomenon of “silence” about such ethnic entertainments is also a question for this research.
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
I don't see the Ottomans mentioned anywhere. As for Russia, I'm sure there were a few occasions of traveling fairs from western Europe bringing human zoos with them, but other than that, no.
Longjumping_Turn_105@reddit
Would you rather visit a human Zoo or a Slave market? And which of them is worse objectivly?
Why die people come to human zoo's? Why did people come to Slave markets?
I think both of them are pretty shitty.
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
I'm pretty sure, when it comes to slavery, it is the west that is notorious and the most known for this practice. Chattel slavery only existed in the West.
Longjumping_Turn_105@reddit
'Chattel slavery was a major institution and a significant part of the Ottoman Empire's economy and traditional society.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire
The very First sentence of the article... Were do you guys get your knowledge from? Modern leftist studies were only the West commited crimes or something?
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
That is wrong. Chattel slavery is unique to the Atlantic slave trade.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Can you give some source?
PaintressLeia@reddit
Ottoman empire has massively practiced slavery with slave markets. As a Bulgarian (if you really are), you cannot ignore that.
1) About Russian human zoos :
“ARE WE SOME KIND OF HAGENBECKS?”: PEOPLE IN THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE’S ZOOS
Maria Leskinen
Institute for Slavic Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences 32A Leninskiy Av., Moscow, Russia marles70()mail.ru
Abstract: The article analyzes the phenomenon of “human zoos” (or “ethnic shows” / “living exhibitions”) in Russian cities (St Petersburg, Moscow) in the second half of the 19th and early 20th centuries. This kind of demonstration of representatives of non-European “savage” peoples in their “natural conditions” was widespread in Europe at the time. “Living human exhibitions” of Russian inorodtsy (reindeer herders, indigenous non-Slavic peoples from of the Russian North) in the 1870s to 1910s were mentioned in several Soviet articles from the 1940s on pre-revolutionary history of the oldest Russian zoos, as well as in contemporary Russian studies on entertainment and leisure in the urban Russian landscape at the beginning of the 20th century. These shows are declared as being similar to the “negro villages” or to the Dahomean Amazon show in Western Europe. Notes of these cases, however, lacked details and verifiable information (such as exact dates or printed publications) of such events. At this (early) stage of the study, no information about such representations in zoos (as it was presented in historiography) has been discovered. There are no eyewitness references about “ethnic exhibitions” of inorodtsy, neither in the Russian literature of this time nor in memoirs. However, research has established that, during the 19th to 20th century, the inhabitants of the Russian capital could see Samoyeds, their reindeers and their chums on the Neva-river when the Samoyeds came to work during Sviatki or Maslenitsa holidays; for Moscow residents, such entertainment became popular only at the beginning of the 20th century, but it took place precisely in the zoo — as collected visual sources from 1907 and 1911 reflect. The phenomenon of “silence” about such ethnic entertainments is also a question for this research.
2) about ottoman empire massively enslaving other people.
The main sources of slaves were wars and politically organized enslavement expeditions in the Caucasus, Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, Central Europe, Southeast Europe, the Western Mediterranean and Africa. It has been reported that the selling price of slaves decreased after large military operations.[2]
In Constantinople (present-day Istanbul), the administrative and political center of the Ottoman Empire, about a fifth of the 16th- and 17th-century population consisted of slaves.[3] The number of slaves imported to the Ottoman Empire from various geographic sources in the early modern period remains inadequately quantified. The Ottoman historians Halil İnalcık and Dariusz Kołodziejczyk have tentatively estimated that 2 million enslaved persons of Rus, Pole, and Ukrainian extraction, captured in Tatar raids, entered the Ottoman Empire between 1500 and 1700.[4] However, other historians, most notably Alan Fisher, have argued that the propensity of contemporary sources on both sides of the Black Sea slave trade to inflate their estimates for the number of captives taken by Tatar raiders has rendered it impossible to accurately calculate the number of enslaved persons passing into Ottoman lands via this route.[5] In addition, an estimated 1 to 1.5 million slaves entered the Ottoman Empire from the Mediterranean between 1530 and 1780. A smaller number of slaves also arrived in this period from the Caucasus, Africa, and other regions, but exact figures remain to be calculated.[6]
Individual members of the Ottoman slave class, called a kul in Turkish, could achieve high status in some positions. Eunuch harem guards and janissaries are some of the better known positions an enslaved person could hold, but enslaved women were actually often supervised by them. However, women played and held the most important roles within the harem institution.[7] A large percentage of officials in the Ottoman government were bought as slaves,[8] raised free, and integral to the success of the Ottoman Empire from the 14th to 19th centuries. Many enslaved officials themselves owned numerous slaves, although the Sultan himself owned by far the most.[9] By raising and specially training slaves as officials in palace schools such as Enderun, where they were taught to serve the Sultan and other educational subjects, the Ottomans created administrators with intricate knowledge of government and fanatic loyalty.
Other slaves were simply laborers used for hard labor, such as for example agricultural laborers and galley slaves. Female slaves were primarily used as either domestic house servants or as concubines (sex slaves), who were subjected to harem gender segregation. While there were slaves of many different ethnicities and race was not the determined factor in who could be enslaved, there was still a racial hierarchy among slaves, since slaves were valued and assigned tasks and considered to have different abilities due to racial stereotypes.
Even after several measures to ban slave trade and restrict slavery, introduced due to Western diplomatic pressure in the late 19th century, the practice continued largely unabated into the early 20th century.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the Russian one, I genuinely couldn’t find it. And yes, I am aware of the Slave trade, but it still isn’t really a zoo.
PaintressLeia@reddit
It was worse and massive. People were sold on human market. Men were castrated, killed, women used as sexual slave. There is a big litterature about that. Even where I live, people had to fight not to be enslaved by ottomans.
T-Gree@reddit
That map is complete bullshit most if the Balkan had human zoos since they were part of Austrohungary.
Purple-Passenger1634@reddit
Okay, now list the countries that wanted human zoo's but missed the entrepreneurship to sort it all out... https://journal.lu/en/different-side-our-luxembourgish-history
Its easy to make stuff seem different from how it actually was in a black and white list.
Accurate-Ladder8995@reddit
Wdym rightfully look at the balkans with ottomans and without u had everything and lived in peace yet u decided to genocide Muslims of the Balkans
technotronica@reddit
There were never human zoos. It was like an exhibition. There was one in Stockholm and there were tribal Africans in huts. It was their work as part of an exhibition. You can see the same today in countries like Tunisia where they show how life in the villages was historically. It's woke BS and misinformation that it was literal zoos.
ReasonableAct3214@reddit
Poland NEVER had a human zoo. The same with death camps and slaves.
Familiar-Weather5196@reddit
Depends where you were, I think Croatia, Slovenia, Czechia were pretty much better off under the Austrians than the Ottomans. In the colonies in Africa, atrocities unfortunately happened, but then again... The Armenian genocide is a thing... Turks also killed and expelled Greeks from Anatolia (the same in reverse in Greece), so... The Ottomans also owned slaves... I don't think it should be a competition
misterchestnut87@reddit
I think the relevant point here is that the Austrians (and later, the Hungarians as well) were not really colonial in the strict sense of the term, which is why they're not really being mentioned in this thread, but I agree otherwise
misterchestnut87@reddit
People tend to focus blame on the Ottoman Empire because it gets a lot less attention in many parts of the world for what it did when it comes to imperialism and genocide vs. European powers. However, it wasn't really any worse.
Also, we are comparing the Ottoman Empire (one nation) vs. Europe (multiple competing nations). If the number of heinous examples of actions are similar, that would somewhat imply that the former is worse, but regardless, they are in the same "ballpark" and comparing/weighting the significance of atrocities is dicey business anyways.
Darwidx@reddit
I have seen this map without Poland on it before, Can some give info About one in Poland, was that in Germany ?
Zaczek_I@reddit
Is this Polish human zoo in the room with us?
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
The room is the zoo
Alarming-Resist1056@reddit
looks almost like a cold-war era map
VariousRow6805@reddit
fuck ottomans
Character-Pirate1297@reddit
Did the creator of this image ever open a history book about Eastern Europe?
crivycouriac@reddit
This map is incorrect anyways
Mormacil@reddit
Yup, several countries not listed had human zoos, Russia even has photographs of said exhibits.
ActivisionBlizzard@reddit
Ireland and Russia both had human zoos. This map is dumb.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I saw it on Instagram reels so it must be true 100%
ActivisionBlizzard@reddit
Forgive me, I didn’t realise it was attributed to a peer reviewed journal such as this
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
Reel = real that is how it works now you know
Next_League6403@reddit
Bro Ottomans took your lands an empire is an empire its bad i know but what would happen if catholics took over and closed orthodox church and forced their religion or language on you? instead of ''just pay your taxes i dont care what you do in your free time'' attitude from the ottomans.
Catholics and protestants were killing each other in the west. They wouldn't go easy on you.
GRIM106@reddit
No give me a map of which countries colonized Africa and bordered countries who did.
JerzyPopieluszko@reddit
pretty sure this map is inaccurate
Hatorate90@reddit
Sk that's the only thing that counts?
Withering_to_Death@reddit
"We" couldn't afford them zoo's since people kept eating those animals! What would happen if they put people in? 👀
Krembiloid@reddit
So only the gay civilized countries featured human zoos?
uhuhuhuhuhjhuhh@reddit
You blame the ottomans bc you weak sperm weak sperm
Latter_Cookie_2607@reddit
I don’t think it’s about one empire being worse than another. It’s about which one feels worse to you. People talk about Ottoman crimes all day long, but rarely mention the 13 Colonies, the treatment of Aboriginal peoples, Africans, and countless others.
A_Monsanto@reddit
My country has become a human zoo!
Excess tourism has me pushed out of my apartment and forced me to adopt all the stereotypes tourists like, so that they leave me a good tip. They come here and all the locals put on a show, working for the yankee euro.
DimensionAgitated507@reddit
So... Not a very accurate map
ImaginaryZucchini272@reddit
The problem for the Balkan was mainly USSR in the last 50 years of 20th century
Royal-Strawberry-601@reddit
Wait, why not? Did you not have colonies? Or were you the exhibits?
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Blindly accusing the Ottomans for everything, particularly in the Balkans, is a modern tradition, systematized in the 19th century by nationalist movements and propagated in the 20th century with national education and propaganda in the region.
While the Turkish image has usually been a boogeyman for centuries, many individuals in Europe evaluated it in a calmer and positive way from time to time. I'll cite a few examples chronologically:
"I would rather see a Turkish turban in the midst of the City (of Constantinople) than the Latin mitre" is a quote attributed to Byzantine Greek statesman Loukas Notaras circa 1452.
After the 1492 expulsion of Sephardic Jews from Spain, Ottoman Turkey welcomed the refugees. Eliyahu Capsali, a 16th-century Cretan rabbi, quoted Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II as mocking King Ferdinand of Spain by saying that "You venture to call Ferdinand a wise ruler, he who has impoverished his own country and enriched mine!"
In 1536, King Francis I of France and Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent formalized one of the closest alliances ever signed in the continent. European contemporaries derided the treaty as the "sacrilegious union of the lily and the crescent" as the alliance proved highly effective and endured for over two centuries. Meanwhile, French thinkers like Jean Bodin was publicly praising the Turks for their religious tolerance amid the sectarian violence in Europe.
During the Dutch Revolt against the Catholic Spanish Empire, Dutch Calvinist rebels adopted the motto "Liever Turks dan Paaps" (Rather Turkish than Papist) in the 1560s.
During the late 16th century, England sought an alliance with the Ottomans against Catholic Spain. Queen Elizabeth I wrote a letter to Sultan Murad III in 1579 and said: ""Most invincible and most mighty defender of the Christian faith against all kind of idolatries, of all that live among the Christians, and falsely profess the name of Christ."
In the 17th-century, Hungarian Protestant clergy actively sought Ottoman protection against the violent Catholic Counter-Reformation led by the Habsburg monarchy, which was accusing them of "Turcophilia."
"When Turkish horses drink water from River Vistula, Poland will be free again," says a Polish prophecy, attributed to Wernyhora, a semi-legendary 18th-century Cossack bard and soothsayer.
Irish people still express gratitude for Ottoman Sultan Abdulmejid's initiative to send food staples and financial assistance to Ireland during the height of the Great Famine in 1847. British diplomat Henry Wellesley, acting on behalf of the British government, intervened to block the aid.
In the Crimean War of 1853-1856, the Ottomans, English, French and Italians were allies against the Russians. The allies won the war. The Ottoman army suffered from the second greatest number of casualties, following France, and the press in all these countries praised the Turks for their bravery and sacrifice for the European alliance.
The target of some of the first fake news around celebrities were the Ottoman sultans in the 19th century. Sultan Abdulaziz was rumored to have a secret affair with Empress Eugénie of France. Sultan Mahmud II's real mother was French noblewoman Aimée du Buc de Rivery, according to other (inaccurate) speculations.
These rumors were used as political tools to attribute Ottoman modernization to Western influence, because the Turks were now officially admitted to the Concert of Europe and their public image across the continent had significantly improved. But it was for a brief time because especially Russians, who seek to have ports in warmer waters, conducted massive propaganda operations and invaded the Ottoman territories several times, stoking nationalism and sectarianism in the Balkans, which helped create the modern conception of the Ottomans in the region.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
It's a great article.
FabulousWalrus2624@reddit
As a czech, I do not think so we ever had a human zoo.
Suitable_Cow6560@reddit
It depends on whom you ask. No nation in the Balkans suffered more than the Macedonians under the Ottoman Empire. The Sultan’s forces and bashi-bazouks carried out frequent massacres and slaughter of Macedonian Christians. This culminated in 1903 with the Turko-Macedonian War. On 2 August 1903 Macedonian revolutionaries proclaimed the independence, which lasted only 10 days before Ottoman forces reasserted control. 300.000 Ottoman troops against 10.000 Macedonians Results: 125 villages burned, More than 70.000 killed, more than 200.000 refugees fled to Bulgaria and Serbia.
Suitable_Cow6560@reddit
Suitable_Cow6560@reddit
Suitable_Cow6560@reddit
Suitable_Cow6560@reddit
It depends on whom you ask. No nation in the Balkans suffered more than the Macedonians under the Ottoman Empire. The Sultan’s forces and bashi-bazouks carried out frequent massacres and slaughter of Macedonian Christians. This culminated in 1903 with the Ilinden (Kruševo) Uprising. On 2 August 1903 Macedonian revolutionaries proclaimed the Kruševo Republic, which lasted about ten days before Ottoman forces reasserted control.
Acework23@reddit
Yes because they burned books and history in general and trated us like second class humans, while shortly under Byzantia, we actually learned a lot and they kept everything sacred
Open-Gur-3189@reddit
They certainly didnt help but the problem is in us…
Winter-Current2740@reddit
Sweden never had ”human zoos”. Are you a retard?
NoItem5389@reddit
They genocided millions of Christians in the early 20tg century. They also kidnapped Christian boys and raised them as Muslims.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
This is physically impossible.
Sensitive-Emu1@reddit
Millions of Christians? Read man. Read. Stop believing. Start reading.
NoItem5389@reddit
It’s well documented bro. Not my fault your country blocks the data and history.
Sensitive-Emu1@reddit
Give me a single document showing that millions of Christians were killed. Turkey declared millions of times that they shared their data and archives.
Difficult-Routine929@reddit
At least their grandchildren will have the moral compass to accept this, but we don't accept our own crimes. We can't accept them we think of ourselves as angels. Those who think like that must be living in a utopia. Perhaps they are an example of Eastern culture, because even the Japanese deny many war crimes.
New-Cupcake5218@reddit
Ne diyorsun awk
Sensitive-Emu1@reddit
War crimes and genocide are not the same thing. The mental element is missing for accepting the genocide.
Cobadeff@reddit
Yes
meyegon@reddit
If anybody claims their people are the righteous ones, they are delusional. We are all the same species.
Usual-Day-2856@reddit
Not true for Portugal. In the Portuguese world exposition in 1940, tribes were brought from Africa and showed as animals in zoo. I think we can call it a human zoo.
Mushrooming247@reddit
Oh. I hate to say it, but I was relieved to see this map because I thought our human zoo exhibits in America were a uniquely-American embarrassment until this moment.
Good job Balkans, and Iceland, Ireland and Finland, and of course Portugal.
1_mnemonic_1@reddit
My opinion - the Russian Empire that planted ceeds of instability and created their political lobbies. While never supporting progress, but strengthened dependancies it basically paved the way to one of the most society degrading regimes the USSR Communist model, which didn’t last as long as others, yet brainwashed entire nations’ demography for generations to come for even 30 years after the Soviet Union collapse.
goranlepuz@reddit
... The fuck?! So now I'm supposed to wage if another invader would have been better?!
Fuck that shit.
thelessandbestofme@reddit
honestly in ever place of the world there is and was evil. which is why racism makes no sense in the first place. everyone has evil.
Tilladarling@reddit
This again?
Ecstatic_Cake_8592@reddit
well sarajevo had a safari in the latest war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Safari
dushmanimm@reddit
No. People who say yes are biased. And I'm not saying that just because I'm Turkish I couldn't give less of a fuck about the legitimacy of a dynasty, objectively just no
Commission_Economy@reddit
would there be peace in the middle east if the Ottoman empire still existed?
Sensitive-Emu1@reddit
Yes. Check how many wars happened in the 'holy lands' before and after the Ottoman Empire collapsed.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
The Middle Eastern countries were very happy to become secular democracies after their national revolutions at the example of what was happening en Europe at the time. It was the fact that they got colonised by the French and British after their secession from the Ottoman empire that screwed them over, or so I have heard.
Greedy-Peace-2500@reddit
Yes. It was considered a backstabbing by the British and the French, and from then Pan-Arabism developed enormous popularity with local people. Pan-Arabism's main enemy, especially in Egypt was islamism and so when Pan-Arabism failed people turned towards Islamism as the alternative. And we all know what islamism has done...
Pan-Arabism is a dead political dream but I think it's important to mention that inside most Arab countries that feeling of Arab unity is still there, but is only a hope/dream and not a serious movement
Tough_Software5851@reddit
Pan-Arabism got a huge blow with the 6 days war defeat. Nasserism got shattered.
Greedy-Peace-2500@reddit
Yes, the actual political realization of it took several blows it won't recover from in the foreseeable future
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
Yes, objectively.
Comprehensive-Bike36@reddit
This is an old map that is just plain wrong. Pretty much every European county (and not only European ones) had human zoos. The difference is that most had traveling zoos(here marked as not having any) and the red parts are the ones who had their own/hosted them. Russia especially had a couple of traveling ones that stated around Saint Petersburg, if memory serves me.
Bluesky00222@reddit
I have seen sinks Ottomans built spesifically for Dwarf people, so they can get water easier. And they kind of created some communities around it so dwarf people could hang out together with each other. Ngl everything aside I find it dope especially considering how rest of the world treated them like pets or zoo animals lol
Minodoro@reddit
Did Hungary have human zoos? Or was it during the Austrian occupation?
iswhhrxi@reddit
Why do we always compare? All empires were ruthless at some point, Ottomans included. Heck, even the Bulgarians were also a menace during medieval times!
nick_corob@reddit
The "civilized" Europeans that now care the kost about the environment
manu20bcr@reddit
There was no innocent empires in history. Fok them all
RoyaleKingdom78@reddit
Russians, Ottomans, Iranians and many more were not that bad as media tells you. Yes they sucked to live under, you were second class citizens and sometimes were subject to mass murder and a lot of bad stuff that I can’t name but you were discriminated based on your religion, no sane person thought that greeks were inferior to turks by birth. It was not the way pre-modern empires worked and in this aspect, we can definitely say that racism as we know is a western invention.
SkibidiBopBopBop357@reddit
Balkans were the open human zoos for ottomans tho... Or should I say human farms
No-Championship-4632@reddit
Ottomans did not have human zoos. They did not have any zoos either, apart from small menageries that could only be visited by the Sultan and his friends, so this whole topic is bullshit.
Asleep-Quality-8054@reddit
I don’t Think Poland has human zoos because it was no Poland when human zoos were a thing. As always we were behind…
Mrkvkn@reddit
Don't want to compare the empires, cause I literally can't understand how would their badness assessed:)
But the map is very inaccurate. Russian Empire did have European human "zoos" on tour and also have their own with people from Russian colonies. There were exhibitions in main Russian cities, however, I am not sure about those ones that are Ukrainian now. Ukrainian cities in Austro-Hungarian Empire did have these shows for sure.
RasyonelRumi@reddit
Most people don’t realize that the Ottoman Empire was not particularly kind to Anatolia or even to the Turks themselves. Personally, I don’t admire the Ottoman Empire as a whole, although I respect certain sultans who maintained higher standards. Of course, it was our empire at one point in history. However, when it collapsed, it left behind a heavy economic burden and a largely uneducated population.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I mean you Turkish people also had to liberate yourselves from the Ottomans at some point no? Isn’t that what Atatürk did?
Yarrrak31@reddit
What gave you that idea? The last sultan who was a puppet didn't wanna leave his throne so after Ataturk was done with greeks and western powers, he just told him to fuck off, abolished the sultanate and declared the republic. There were some rebellions in anatolia in the 15th century but other than that Turks were completely loyal to the empire
Delgree-23@reddit
No, not loyal. Cause loyalty would have been a choice. We were subjects to the throne, which was overthrown by Kuvay-ı Milliye in the end.
Yarrrak31@reddit
The same can be said about all monarchies.
Delgree-23@reddit
Yes. Doesn’t negate the truth in it.
Yarrrak31@reddit
Turkish people didn't view the Ottoman Empire the same way minorities did back then and they don't know now. It's not up to discussion. I'm glad it's gone and we have the republic now but Ottoman Empire is still an extremely important part of our history and we should accept them with their rights and wrongs
Delgree-23@reddit
That sounds like an opinion I disagree with. But thanks for the input.
Yarrrak31@reddit
It's not really my opinion. You won't find anybody who thinks Ottomans were foreign oppressors and we were fighting against them to become independent. It's wrong historically speaking too
Delgree-23@reddit
It doesn’t have to be a foreign oppressors for it to be fought against from within. Take any fall of a monarchy. I’m not saying it was the French Revolution, but it wasn’t an unintentional byproduct of the end of WW1 either.
Yarrrak31@reddit
It's not true. You think the average soldier was dreaming about a Ottomanless future while fighting against the Greeks? You're ignoring everything Ataturk did to make sure the public didn't rebel against him for abolishing the sultanate too.
Bu arada bunu soran çok büyük ihtimalle ''tarihiniz yok amına kodumun köle türkoları'' demek için yazdı bunu. Azıcık bu tiplerle muhatap olsaydın konuyu nereye çekmeye çalıştığını anlardın ama bunun yerine kendini ezilmiş aşağılanmış bir halk olarak lanse etmeyi seçtin. Böyle orospu çocuklarına malzeme vermeye devam aynen
Delgree-23@reddit
I think this is a fruitless debate with no concrete historical evidence but two different interpretations of the events.
Ayrıca Osmanlı tebası son sultanların altında gayet ezilmiş ve aşağılanmıştı. Ben oltayı görüyorum, fakat algı yönetimi yapmaya ihtiyaç duymadım. Neyse o.
I’d rather not continue wasting my time with this. Thanks.
RasyonelRumi@reddit
Yup, I thank him every day.
SoggyCharacter2569@reddit
My brother in Christ, do you know what "kolac" is and what Ottomans used it for? Sure they ain't got human zoos but don't act like they were good at all
GrouchyCustomer6050@reddit
I’m Irish 🇮🇪.When I hear Balkan stories of massacres, forced conversion, and second class citizenship based on religion, i think “that’s familiar”
ismellsomethinggood@reddit
On the other hand the Ottoman Sultan did experiment of breeding Greeks and Sundanese
BasedEmu@reddit
Further proof Portugal is balkan.
FerdinandTheBest@reddit
There were no "human zoos" in Poland.
MarineRitter@reddit
It’s easy to preach being good when you don’t have the opportunity to be bad
FlamesOfDespair@reddit
You would do the same if you had my power isn't a good argument to to the victims.
MarineRitter@reddit
It’s not what I’m saying. I am saying that it’s easy to feel morally superior when you are not in a position where you can commit a vice. A person who holds power and choses not to act on it is not the same as the person without power who feels good about their non-choice of not being corrupt by power.
Also it’s not like we are direct victims in this case to begin with - if I said that about african colonies then your comment would be spot on
Drax-Gorb-2026@reddit
SolMediaNocte@reddit
I think you are giving too much attention to AI generated maps from Instagram
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
No they are perfect
VisibleReport5008@reddit
I dont wanna trigger anyone but that was just a reguler empire back then.(not justifiying it)
What even was humanism back then? Even today with all this shit...
ND7020@reddit
TBF the humanist idea stems from the Renaissance and blossomed to full fruition in the Enlightenment, so that goes pretty far back.
Was it APPLIED by Western European empires in their colonial possessions? Fuck no.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
the real outcome of Renaissance was spread way after the enlightenment as i know it was bourgeois class mostly in the big trade towns near the sea. The average guy in the village didnt felt any of that.
MartinBP@reddit
It's not like things have changed in that regard.
ND7020@reddit
It trickled down in major ways well before that (obviously depending on the area).
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
The Renaissance is basically European barbarians getting enlightened by the East, because the Mongols secured the safety of global trade which allowed the ideas of the East to spread all the way into the irrelevant backwater that was western Europe.
Nodrapoel@reddit
And once again Portugal is Balkans.
Cautious_Self6861@reddit
You ever notice how the people who blame the Ottoman Empire are gray on your map?
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
You fail to understand you were the zoo
Wild-Ad-7414@reddit
A good map for the division of first class whites vs second
Emirovskii@reddit
In my humble opinion, Ottomans weren't the worst empire in Europe. If we look up historical facts and stats, we can see much more brutal regimes in othe places. What West Europeans did to their colonies, especially Africa and the Americas, can make you sick. Its hard to beat that level of bad. Not to mention later periods like WW2
mybrainsdeadwait@reddit
this is false for Bulgaria, we still have them, just go to Pernik, the entire city is a zoo
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I thought it is not official
Maleficent_Carrot453@reddit
Depends on the period, as the Ottoman Empire lasted for a very long time.
The main problem was that it never truly evolved and modernized, it largely remained the same. In contrast, the European empires went through significant transformations over the centuries, like the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution, various economic and social reforms, etc. The Ottoman Empire, however, stayed more or less stagnant.
Whenever a sultan attempted to introduce reforms, he was often assassinated or blocked by the others. Later, when the Young Turks came to power with the promise of modernization, their rule instead made the Empire a land of massacres and forced Turkification.
So, as a general view, yes, the Ottoman was worse than the European Powers for all the lands that it ruled. However, it might have taken a different path had the reformers succeeded in their efforts to modernize it.
JovanThePlatypus456@reddit
I mean being in a zoo is less bad than being worked to death or having a pole punched throu you.
Still terrible tho but this doesnt prove much
Sorry_assbulja3244@reddit
I think it became worse over the years ( from 16th centaury), as it didn't embrace the progress, humanisam, enlightement and so on.. to be fair it was qiute tolerant towards different religions at the beginning.
deviendrais@reddit
You can’t really compare the two. Western colonialism gave birth to fucked up ideologies such as white supremacy. Ottoman influence is less noticeable today in comparison. On the other hand, many people nowadays are aware of what European colonialism has done but they are unaware or even minimise Ottoman atrocities.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I mean we Balkan people are very aware.
deviendrais@reddit
Armenians are also very aware of the Armenian genocide but the average Westerner isn’t so no one cared when a couple of years ago Azerbaijan ethnically cleansed them.
Content-Natural9358@reddit
Well in some alternative history, you can take any breaking point war or battle, such as the battle of Varna of 10. November 1444.
Say ottomans lose there a heavy casualties loss and Murad II dies.
Ladislaus that was already king of Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, etc. conquers Adrianopole, and secures more tittles and lands like he becomes both defacto and de jure Emperor in Constantinople of everything in the Balkans, not 100% but Wallachia, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc. just get to be vassal kingdoms, and a super state empire emerges with all of the above listed earlier so Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Modavia, Croatia, Sebua, Bulgaria, Wallachia, Transylvania...
Of course the Austrians and HRE would immediately turn hostile to such a new empire that is bigger and richer and mostly orthodox Christian. The remnants of ottomans in Anatolia and other muslims would also continue the hostility.
And there would be the question of Muscovy and Novgorod to the east and northeast, how they would relate to this new empire.
Anyways the Balkans would rebel less, probably have less internal wars, probably the frontlines for wars would move to seas, and towards west and Anatolia. So the outcome would be more population, weathier countries, more literate population, more in tune with the west in technology(because thete would be less flow of people and wealth towards renaissance cities of Italy).
Maybe some would get into colonizing. Or maybe the success of Christians would encourage more and bigger crusedas towards the 3 cities of pentarchy remaining under islamic rule, Antioch, Jerusalem and Akexandria... Maybe there would be a Suez cannal centuries earlier or much less interest for colonization of Anericas and more interest to trade towards India and China trough east routes...
You can imagine hundreds of better outcomes for Balkans even if lets say Austria made an empire later towards here, or if France with Napoleon didn't try to go at Russia but conquered bslkans...
JohniMajstor@reddit
The nazi, i mean european, union.
dont_tread_on_M@reddit
If you want to compare it with Europe, the question you should ask is: what year? We're talking about 500 years of history, which can't be compressed into a single answer.
Now, if the question you want to ask is whether the end result for the Balkans was better or worse with the Ottomans conquering it, the answer is: none can say this for sure, but most likely it was worse for the Balkans.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I just want to stir the pot
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
Yes.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I know that Serbia also had beef with the Austrian empire as well as than the Ottomans. Were they really better with how they treated their Balkan subjects?
QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit
Eh, at least we were people to them
People, they felt, should disappear through forced assimilation and ethnic cleansing, but, still people
Can't say that for those poor souls who lived and died in zoos.
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
Yes.
Skylin34night@reddit
Any colonial empire was evil, either western empires, either ottomans or Japanese empire.
ReasonResitant@reddit
We gotta get our own, cant be not in the club.
nidorancxo@reddit (OP)
I ask WHEN?!?
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
About the same
Stealthfighter21@reddit
Yes, it was.