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On this day, 205 years ago, the Greek Revolution is officially declared. Prince Alexander Ypsilantis crosses river Prut with his army, entering the Danubian Principalities. He calls for all Greeks and Christians in the Balkans to raise against the Ottomans, beginning the revolution. Thoughts?

Posted by ClothesZestyclose814@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 233 comments

On this day, 205 years ago, the Greek Revolution is officially declared. Prince Alexander Ypsilantis crosses river Prut with his army, entering the Danubian Principalities. He calls for all Greeks and Christians in the Balkans to raise against the Ottomans, beginning the revolution. Thoughts?

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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Two days after crossing the Prut, at Three Holy Hierarchs Monastery in Iași, the capital of Moldavia, Ypsilantis issued a proclamation calling all Greeks and Christians to rise up against the Ottomans: "Fight for Faith and Fatherland! The time has come, O Hellenes. Long ago the people of Europe, fighting for their own rights and liberties, invited us to imitation ... The enlightened peoples of Europe are occupied in restoring the same well-being, and, full of gratitude for the benefactions of our forefathers towards them, desire the liberation of Greece. We, seemingly worthy of ancestral virtue and of the present century, are hopeful that we will achieve their defense and help. Many of these freedom-lovers want to come and fight alongside us ... Who then hinders your manly arms? Our cowardly enemy is sick and weak. Our generals are experienced, and all our fellow countrymen are full of enthusiasm. Unite, then, O brave and magnanimous Greeks! Let national phalanxes be formed, let patriotic legions appear and you will see those old giants of despotism fall themselves, before our triumphant banners."
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/bih4kmn4n4lg1.jpeg?width=624&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd25f87e26d8d53b36aa1d7e055a5b853374a8eb
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the_lonely_creeper@reddit

From where is this?
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

also, this year marks 200 years since the HEROIC Messologhi Exodus. this is ONE account of how, Europe, reacted to it. https://preview.redd.it/ea0k93r7u4lg1.jpeg?width=516&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=edf773e7ec7dbd8fc21d75a441dae932b7a433c3
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/hy861d3zm4lg1.jpeg?width=624&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=258ca52d18809683743fea62b158db3391c7c4da
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Porphyres@reddit

And it is important to note that the Orthodox church excommunicated him and all our ancestors who fought for freedom.
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SE_prof@reddit

This was not for the patriarch to decide. He was under immense pressure by the Sublime Porte along with the rest of the Greek Orthodox community of Constantinople, which is why he was hanged and is now considered a martyr by the church The Greek church is also separate from the patriarchate for the same reason. The revolutionaries wanted to separate themselves from Constantinople to protect the community there and elsewhere from reprisals. Phanariotes and Epirotes were some of the greatest benefactors of the revolution and of the new state.
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Porphyres@reddit

The orthodox church never liked the ideas of the enlightenment.
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3d0md0g@reddit

That's not correct. The enlightenment started when Roman scholars fled Constantinople to the west. There's no Greek Orthodoxy really, Orthodox were Roman, their language was Roman based on Greek, the emperor was Roman, the country was not called Byzantium, but Ρωμανία,l. History is a continuum, Greeks from the fifth century did not teleport to 1821. Neither did the Golden Horde replace the population of today Turkey. The difficult truth is that the Balkans, Greece and Turkey collectively are descendants of the people that comprised the Roman State. Those who think otherwise should have their DNA tested. I did, I'm theoretically Greek from grandson of Socrates as per id, but turns out I'm viking in blood, a two meter long ox from Thracia with a size 64 head, and based on the spoken family history, my ancestors were varangian. Socrates had nothing to do with me and my lineage, most likely they were axe bearing blutlust savages hired as bodyguards. So if I may: the whole story about the nation is bs, what only matters is the civilizational gravitas and allegiance and regarding this there's orthodoxy and the memory of the Roman State. And yes the church protected the sciences and the letters by hiring people from the north that yielded the double cutting axe with devotion to their masters until death, which may I add was rather rare among them and more likely for their adversaries.
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RossMxx@reddit

You are confusing Rainessance with the Enlightenment. What he wrote is 100% true, the church never liked the Enlightenment (and still don't). The Rainessance also didn't start by the Fall, however Byzantine scholars and nobility that fled to the West fueled it.
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3d0md0g@reddit

How do you explain that the ”church", as if its one btw, founded Universities and maintains ancient libraries? I don't have time to play games with "Rainessance" and the Enlightenment (seriously now? You get the misspelled french word for the cause and differentiate it from the effect and "therefore" you got yourself an argument for "that's why the church hates the Enlightenment"?) The history of northwestern Europe is a deep fake: the Romans fled the collapse of the empire and spread their knowledge alongside the Arabs, who, both, never lost it, never had to rediscover it, they just passed it over to the European northwest, which weaponised it for their power rivalries. The Easter Orthodox church never suppressed knowledge, they were the curators of knowledge for millennia. Other "churches" forgave sins for money, started crusades, legalised slavery and treated religion like a reality show.
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RossMxx@reddit

Buddy, I refuse to continue conversation with someone who cannot differentiate Rainessance with Enlightenment. Go back to the middle ages and keep the ancient literature locked in monasteries while you are there. And let me remind you that the great library of Alexandria was (partially) destroyed by Christians.
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Porphyres@reddit

Lets take a look at the scholars. Georgios Gemistos: not orthodox, excommunicated, condemned by the patriarch, his works burned by patriarch Scholarios. Bessarion, founder of the Greek library in Genova: excommunicated, written out of history, not orthodox.
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scanfash@reddit

Idk what the obsession is with enlightenment lol that isn’t an objective measure of anything
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Porphyres@reddit

The neohellenic enlightenment gave birth to the greek state.
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SE_prof@reddit

The Orthodox Church started the revolution in Morea... And preserved the Greek civilization for 400 years.... I'm not religious but whoever dismisses the role of the church in the revolution simply has no idea about history.
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Porphyres@reddit

It didn't start sh. The revolution started in Wallacia, Patras was liberated on March 23 (so the revolution didn't start at March 25). How did it preserve Greek civilization tell me please.
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Fatalaros@reddit

What do these dates have to do with the church?
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Porphyres@reddit

Because according to orthodox mythology, the revolution was declared in Saint Labra church on March 25(religious holiday). Making it a religious revolution, something that is not true.
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SE_prof@reddit

I'm not about the date or about the Metropolitan. The church, the simple clergy blessed the war, simple priests fought in the world. Religion was a big part of the identity at that time. Whenever freedom of religion was allowed in the empire it was only religious schools that existed and the clergy was teaching the language and the tradition.
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Porphyres@reddit

Fair enough, the simple folk supported it. That doesn't mean the orthodox church favoured it. What did they teach in religious schools? People got their language and traditions from their parents then grandparents and so on. Contact with ancient Greek literature and rhetoric was only offered to the upper classes.
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SE_prof@reddit

There were 1500 years of Orthodox tradition between ancient Greece and the revolution... What the hell are you talking about?
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Porphyres@reddit

The church can be credited with the destruction of many ancient works and the preservation of few.
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SE_prof@reddit

Tell that to Theodosius (the Great by the way...). 1300 years before the revolution...
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Porphyres@reddit

He's literally a saint in the orthodox church.
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SE_prof@reddit

We don't disagree on that... I though you nationalists were all about Patris, Thriskeia, Oikogeneia. I guess you are a different kind of flavour.
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Porphyres@reddit

I am not a nationalist I am smart and I believe in Orthodox mythology like "medieval Greeks" and "Christian ancient Greeks" or "Gregory the 5th was supportive".
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SE_prof@reddit

You are smart.... That doesn't track... Maybe you can add 1+1? Possibly...
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Porphyres@reddit

I am not even sure what your point is at this point.
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Fatalaros@reddit

The point is you're cringe christianophobe
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Porphyres@reddit

I wasn't talking to you.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

And that's why we have a separate Church of Greece, independent from Constantinople.
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Bottles4u@reddit

Except for Crete!
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Porphyres@reddit

And the Patriarchate shouldn't own property in Greece until they admit their error.
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Kollonell@reddit

Man is stylish by the way
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Radiant_Put_3609@reddit

It is estimated that about 50,000 Muslims, including women and children, lived in the Peloponnese in March 1821. A month later, when the Greeks were celebrating their Easter, there was hardly anyone left. A few of them who managed to escape to fortified cities were suffering from starvation. Everywhere the unburied bodies of the murdered Turks were rotting. According to William St. Clair: "The Turks of Greece left few traces. They disappeared suddenly and finally in the spring of 1821, umoumed and unnoticed by the rest of the world... Upwards of 20,000 Turkish men, women and children were murdered by their Greek neighbours in a few weeks of slaughter. They were killed deliberately, without qualm and scrrple... Turkish families living in single farms or small isolated communities were summarily put to death, and their homes burned down over their corpses. Others, when the disturbances began, abandoned home to seek the security of tire nearest town, but the defenceless streams of refugees were overwhelmed by bands of armed Greeks. In the smaller towns, the Turkish communities barricaded their houses and attempted to defend themselves as best they could, but few survived. In some places they were driven by hunger to surrender to their attackers on receiving promises of security, but these were seldom honoured. The men were killed at once, and the women and children divided out as slaves, usually to be killed in their turn later. All over the Peloponnese roamed mobs of Greeks armed with clubs, scytires, and a few fierarms, killing, plundering and burning. They were often led by Christian priests, who exhorted them to greater elforts in their holy work''\[[16](https://belleten.gov.tr/tam-metin/2448/eng#fn16)\]. According to Steven Runciman. who wrote the history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "the great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant (!) Peloponnesian bishops who raised the Standard of revolt in 1821 \[[17](https://belleten.gov.tr/tam-metin/2448/eng#fn17)\]. This was not a war for Greek independence or !iteration, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Mtrslims, and the main provokers of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics. As soon as the rebellion began, Greek highwayman Petros Mavromichalis, alias Petrobey. descended from the mountains to the town- cum-port of Kalamata, together with his marauders, and mtrrdered all the Muslim men, more ferociously even than the riff-raff of Patras had done, selling the young Muslim women and children as slaves. In order to celebrate this so-called "victory”, twenty-four priests organised a Te *Deum* at tire banks of the town's river. The Kalamata tragedy was followed by the total extermination of tire Muslims of Patras and Livadhia\[[18](https://belleten.gov.tr/tam-metin/2448/eng#fn18)\].
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

That's impressively low! Considering the Chios Massacre had 100,000 casualties, that's very low :)
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Radiant_Put_3609@reddit

Dude, Both sides suffered heavy losses. The Ottomans simply made more radical decisions because they held the power. What bothers me is that, in the end, Turks are demonized while other groups are portrayed as if they were angels who did nothing wrong and simply had unfortunate things happen to them. If there hadn’t been this absurd movement called religion, none of this would have happened and innocent people on both sides wouldn’t have died. There’s no point in turning this into a pissing contest. I congratulate you on gaining your freedom.
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SympathySad8571@reddit

He looks like a Silesian miner
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Original-Hall-9832@reddit

Asks all Christians to fight, then the spoils go to only Greek Christians on the detriment of other Christians fighting for their own liberation. Definition of a hypocrite.
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RossMxx@reddit

He should be a Balkan hero leading the way of independence for the region's ethnicities.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

His vision was the liberation of all Balkan Christians, not just Greeks, and the fall of the Ottoman tyranny. He is a hero of the Balkan people.
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Adept-One-4632@reddit

He is a traitor to us romanian for murdering Vladimirescu.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Vladimirescu was thought to be a traitor to the Ottomans, that is why he was executed by the Filiki Eteria.
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Public-Restaurant566@reddit

Anyway, there are no more Greeks left in Romania nowadays
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Quite a few Romanians in Greece though
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Public-Restaurant566@reddit

Only our best, so to speak. The money are better in Romania, the life is safer as well.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

The best in what exactly, organized crime? If the money is better back home (lol) why did they live? Nobody is holding them.
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Public-Restaurant566@reddit

Exactly. Our best,so to speak. But your English is kalimera. To be honest, most of those going to Greece are our gipsies, who, because of their dark skin have problems over here, but in Greece are usually alright
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

There are at least 44,000 Romanian immigrants in Greece by the way.
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

lol, right. Romania is so "great" that Romanians "flocked" to England, (en mass), to the point that it could, easily, be argued they were the main reason for Brexit, lol. (anyone that was in England back then knows full well the role Romanian mass immigration played in the campaign - and anyone who's settled abroad is also aware of the reputation Romanians have in the West... frankly, attitudes displayed in this thread do NOT help them, on that front, NOT AT ALL, lol).
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

lol, Romania is so "great" that Romanians "flocked" to England, (en mass), to the point that it could, easily, be argued they were the main reason for Brexit, lol. (anyone that was in England back then knows full well the role Romanian mass immigration played in the campaign - and anyone who's settled abroad is also aware of the reputation Romanians have in the West... frankly, attitudes displayed in this thread do NOT help them, on that front, NOT AT ALL, lol).
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BankBackground2496@reddit

Theodor Paleologu?
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Adept-One-4632@reddit

"Thought" and led to his execution. Plus, he and the panduri were not interested in Ypsilantis's frankly dumb idea. They only wanted phanariots like him out of power.
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

> "dumb idea". & yet it worked? lol. meanwhile, Romanians had to wait to be liberated by the "bad" Russians, (they dislike so much). then, in WW2 they, famously, sided w/ Nazis, lost, USSR "stole" a "bunch" of their territory, &, (most) Moldavians, now, (their "brothers") want nothing to do w/ them. as in, the majority would rather stay independent (in the "poorest" country in Europe), and reject unification w/ Romania. well, that, alone, says everything.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

If the freedom of Greece is a dumb idea to you, then why would I care about yours or that Vladimirescu guy? I frankly don't care either.
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Adept-One-4632@reddit

>If the freedom of Greece is a dumb idea to you Not that idea. The Balkan federation one.
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NoBetterIdeaToday@reddit

That was the excuse used, yes, but they knew it had nothing to do with it. Phanariots were a plague on the Romanian principalities.
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ismellsomethinggood@reddit

Not sure if he was leading as we Serbs had two uprisings (1804-1813) and (1815-1817), took control over the Sanjak of Smederevo which basically become semi-independent Principality of Serbia in 1817 (confirmed with Ferman from Mahmud II in 1830), gained independence in 1878 by Treaty of San Stefano and evolved to Kingdom of Serbia in 1882.
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

lol. Serbians were, explicitly, offered to fight a joint independence war (by Φιλική Εταιρεία) & refused. if we r to count "uprisings" & de-facto autonomy, instead of actual independence Greece had the Orlov Revolt (in 1768) which captured even more of Mani as a result (& Mani was NEVER conquered after that).
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ismellsomethinggood@reddit

Well we were fighting from 1804 til 1817 ,we de jure got independence but we were not recognized by any power.
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

lol. u had Turk troops in ur territory & were paying tribute to Turks until u got ur (actual) independence.
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Rotfrajver@reddit

Read more into it. Seems like you're discussing it with little knowledge
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

sure, > "Serbia gained autonomy following the First Serbian Uprising in 1804 and the Second Serbian Uprising in 1815, though Turkish troops continued to garrison the capital, Belgrade, until 1867. > "Those uprisings revived the Serbian pride and gave them hope that their Empire might come into reality again. > "**In 1829 Greece gained complete independence and Serbian autonomy was confirmed,** which made Serbia semi-independent from Turkey. > "Serbia and Montenegro declared war on Turkey in 1876 and were badly defeated. > "Russia, inspired by Pan-Slavism, decided to intervene. The war alongside Russia against the Turks in 1878 achieved victory and brought full independence for Serbia". [WIKIPEDIA.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_modern_Serbia).
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Rotfrajver@reddit

Western fleet defeated the Ottomans. Put the Bavarian king as heir to Greece. Created your independence basically. Serbia had to fight tooth and nails and built its country on itself basically through the Ottoman system, while Greeks were gifted it by the French and British. That's all I'mma say to you so you don't get smartass next time.
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

lol. I literally proved u wrong w/ a Wikipedia article, & u start coping, lol. the fact is, Serbia only gained (actual) independence in 1878 - and that is following a direct Russian intervention, (since ur initial offensive was a humiliation). Greece fought a 10-year war of independence, & actually won, full independence. we were literally fighting bith Turks & Egyptians on our own, lol. ofc, both of us ended up expanding in the aftermath - the difference is that u lost more than half of ur territory, whule we never lost any. maybe, try diplomacy, next time!
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Louis-Nicolas-Davout@reddit

You were fighting with Ottoman empire and empire's governor of Egypt. And you lost. Triple alliance won against Ottomans and made Greece independent. Greeks basically had no chance against Turks ANYTIME.
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

200 years of cope. 🇬🇷🇬🇷 https://preview.redd.it/mdo124huh6lg1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2280ffbe534b707258ebd64d346327b92704d6b6
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RossMxx@reddit

Probably be did, considering that he led to the first independent state from the Ottomans in 1832. There had been previously unsuccessful uprisings during the 18th century too (eg. Orlov revolt).
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SE_prof@reddit

He wanted to be the Balkan Bolivar.
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Basilacis@reddit

Here's some facts: Amongst his officers were Hadzi Prodan the veteran of the Serbian Revolution, Dimitrie Macwdonski and Ince Voyvoda veterans of the Bulgarian Uprising of the Russo-Turkish War of 1806-1812, and the Greco-vlachs (not confused with those of Wallachia) Georgios Olympios and Ioannis Pharmakis, veterans of the Greek uprising of 1798, and 1806. The rebels inspired by veterans of the Napoleonic Wars attempted to try to use line infantry tactics to which they failed as everybody else had failed to use line infantry tactics within the Ottoman-held territory. The Wallachians also uprose, but they split into the anti-phanariote faction that wanted the restoration of the old regime in Wallachia and the pro-pan-balkan-revilution faction. Vladimirescu was initially the leader of the Wallachian uprising and was not taking a decisive position amongst these two options. The Austrians also played an important role on sabotaging the rebels, fabricating also a supposed betrayal of Vladimirescu, leading to his execution by his own men. Fochianos, one of Vladimirescu's officers sided with the Ottomans, and others like Diamantis Tzouvaras were convinced to surrender. The Ottomans being in the early stages of the war, they launched an offensive that crushed both uprisings. The Russians did not join the war until 1828 when Tzar became the much rebel-friendly Nikolas. The revolution sparked in many more places, usually in Greece, andany Orthodox peoples of the Balkans joined the side of the rebels. The war was the bloodiest war in the entire history of the Balkans with more than 700k dead, in accordance to the census publications of John Kapodistrias, the accounts of the Russo-Turkish War of 1828, and the estimations made in during the treaties. War crimes were also very commonly committed by both sides, but mostly as reprisals against the rebels or regions that were suspected to soon rebel. The Ottoman war machine collapsed, and between 1826 and 1828 the Old Regime army was transformed into the Army of the Tanzimat Era. The deliler were abolished, the sipahis were transformed into European-like cavalry, and the janissaries were abolished after 10k were executed in 1826. The Ottoman army and state was secularified (i.e., it stopped being a religious body governed by dervishes and kadis) which led to never again achieving a major victory. Greece became a country as a result of the war, and it is considered the oldest country in the Balkans, given Serbia was recognised later, and Turkey is supposed to be a different country than the Ottoman Empire. Initially, the Greek Revolution was a holy war supposedly representing all Orthodox Christians. However, after the death of important non-Greek leaders, the failure of the uprisings in the continental Balkans, and the rise of various ambitious Greek politicians, the war turned also a national uprising, and since 1822 many letters were sent in Europe asking for support. The Battle of Navarino is considered the end of the war, however, the Battle of Petra was the one driving the Ottoman amry out of Greece a year later, where the brothers of Ypsilantis, Dimitrios led the Greek forces to victory. Also, Mahmud II refused to sign any treaties until the general of the Russian army, Zabalkansky, reached Adrianople. The leader of the fleet in Navarino, Edward Codrington was put to trial for treason fot opening fire against the Turks, however, he was declared innocent as it was proven that Ibrahim's men opened fire first (they did not think much about it as it seems). The British did not want Greece to win too much lands so the balance of power would not be disturbed, and also that they could much easier manipulate the politics of the small state of Greece. France was also supporting the British interests, but basically after the fall of Napoleon Bonaparte, France was a British puppet. Many Greek stubborn generals were assassinated or imprisoned in order to maintain stability of this new political status, and British officers, like Cochrane and Church were placed at the head of the Greek army and fleet. Of course, no word for the other Orthodox nations, as giving them full independence would disturb the balance of power even more, and Russia would get potentially new allies in the Balkans. The revolution actually began 13 days later, because back then they were using the Orthodox calendar, not the Western common calendar.
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Annual-Field-7607@reddit

The Muslim Greeks/Bulgarians, Albania, Kosovo, Bosna would not heed the call
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JealousBalance9707@reddit

There was practically almost nothing positive in this for us, romanians. I just triggered another war on our territory, with the "Eteria" greeks plundering and burning. They were unexperienced and poorly led. Ypsilantis was not a good political or military leader, and he didn't seem to be courageous either. Quote from him, on abandoning his army: >Soldiers! No! I will no longer pollute that sacred and honourable name by applying it to you. You are a cowardly rabble!...You have broken your oaths, you have betrayed God and your country, you have betrayed me too at the moment when I hoped either to conquer or to die with honor among you... Run off to the Turks, who alone are worthy of your support...run off to the Turks, and kiss their hands from which still drips the blood of those they have inhumanely slaughtered. Yes! Run off to them, buy slavery with your lives and with the honor of your wives and children! (he held this speech just before crossing the mountains to Austria, leaving what was left of the army) The only positive thing is that from that point on the Porte distrusted the Greeks Phanariotes, and allowed us to be ruled by Romanian princes.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

The Romanians should have answered his call to arms and organize against the Ottomans. It's your failure of answering, his intention was the liberation of all Balkan Christians. At least Greeks did answer, and we won our independence.
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JealousBalance9707@reddit

Sure, the liberation of all Balkan Christians, with the Greeks ruling instead of the Turks. No thanks. We had Greek princes back then, so it was Greek themselves who didn't answer his call. A good example is Michael Soutzos, the Greek prince of Moldavia. He helped Ypsilantis, gave Eteria a lot of money, and in the same time informed the Turks. And actually back then the Greeks were almost as big of a problem as the Turks. The Phanariotes dominance delayed education in Romanian. We were being heavily taxed to maintain the Phanar families.
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No2Hypocrites@reddit

They actually wanted to controll all of eastern orthodox people regardless of their ethnicity. They had war with Bulgarians because of this. 
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Wrong, these were the Phanariotes. They were Ottoman officials of Greek background. The Patriarchate of Constantinople, located in Phanari, where this community was, EXCOMMUNICATED the entire Greek Revolution and its leaders. Don't confuse the Phanariotes with the Greek Revolutionaries.
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

Romanians, simultaneously, call the 1878 Russo-Turkish war that won them. independence "Romanian independence war" & at the same time, shit on Russia for "helping" them. https://preview.redd.it/nzy465u9l4lg1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c4d4754be888b7729e7842268c819dc7921ea64 (just deeply un-serious, some of them).
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Neutrinomind@reddit

Yes, in 1878 Romania risked to be military occupied by Russia and that scenario was very much in Carol’s and others minds. Carol being a Hohenzollern was a lucky coincidence as that forced Bismarck to warn the russians against doing anything provocative. Still, they forced Romania to cede 3 counties that gave them access to the Danube, in exchange for Dobrogea which Romania didn’t particularly want. Only 13 years earlier they sponsored a secesionist rebellion in Iaşi because Russia didn’t want the union between Moldova and Wallachia and implicitly Romania’s making to be made. Nevertheless in 1878 they didn’t want our help, partly because of their arrogance and partly because they didn’t want us to gain a good position ahead of the imminent future peace treaty. They asked for our help only when the ottomans proved to be a tougher nutt to crack. Do you think we were wary of them for shits&giggles?
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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

eh, I'm NOT saying Russia was, a "perfect" ally, but the way u, sometimes, go on you'd think they were Turk. weird that Romanians contribution (in this thread), amounts to shitting on Greek, revolutionaries. I don't think you'll come across Greeks posting in Romania independence threads, mentioning how, Romania was a Nazi ally. (& obviously, being a Nazi ally is FAR WORSE compared to anything revolutionaries done, in Romania).
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Neutrinomind@reddit

Because to us Russia was way more dangerous than Ottomans&co, that’s why. We had a chill relationship with the turks at that time anyways. Which of course is in antithesis with how you feel, because for greeks, turks have been 10 times the danger Russia was. Different perspectives. Also i am not really shitting on your revolutionaries or your war, just its initial phase that was carried on our soil, which was a disaster. And frankly you would do the same if for a century Greece was ruled by a few romanian families that signified Greece’s statehood decadence. And then those romanians want you to fight Turkey or Russia because they want an independent Romania. You or other greeks can post about our fascist history, don’t think it would bother someone, besides the group that thinks Churchill gave Romania to the soviets in exchange for Greece :). But otherwise i don’t think who or for whom we fought in ww2 matters to a lot of greeks
View on Reddit #79072668

JealousBalance9707@reddit

Actually in the 19th century Russia was much more of a danger to us than the Turks. In 1821 it was the Greek revolutionaries that tortured and killed Vladimirescu, not the other way around. And before of this they were plundering and raping. So we don’t like Eteria. Everything can be done “excused” by comparing with the Nazi, it doesn’t make sense. The Ottomans were good because at least they weren’t Nazi? I have a lot of sympathy for the Greek struggle for independence. And I understand why Ypsilantis was a symbol. But we should look at the hard facts, not in a naive nationalistic way.
View on Reddit #79072500

ismellsomethinggood@reddit

Did he fail with revolution by losing the battle?
View on Reddit #79071482

ANewPlayer_1@reddit

Tudor Vladimirescu getting assasinated by the Eteria in the background be like: Bruh...
View on Reddit #79069795

MasterpieceVirtual66@reddit

The whole ordeal with Vladimirescu was a gigantic mistake on Ypsilantis' part. Based on false documents and the lack of control Vladimirescu had over his forces, he and the other members of the Etereia believed that he was conspiring with the Ottomans to betray the Revolution, and thus brutally assassinated him. Vladimirescu's death pretty much doomed any chance the Revolution had of succeeding, since it alienated the Romanian population.
View on Reddit #79071328

Neutrinomind@reddit

Why? For us greeks themselves were the ottoman presence in the countries. For generations greek merchants were protected by the porte, greek prelates were preferred by the ottoman friendly patriarchate and the political power was accaparated by greek families that were put there to be sultan’s loyal servants. On the other hand you have the russians that promise freedom and better times for the balkans. By 1821 there were multiple hard military russian occupations with romanian lands used as a battlefield and otherwise intense local interference done by the russians. The illusion Russia would protect the principalities was shattered a decade before when it wanted to annex the countries, they couldn’t but still took half of Moldova. A greek general supported by russians presenting his cause as that of liberation was a farcical bad joke for the locals.
View on Reddit #79070324

DrBri4ght@reddit

Is it true that a lot of greeks still considered themselves roman during this time?
View on Reddit #79143746

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Romans was our ethnonym until very recently, when we switched back to our ancient name Hellenes. We still call ourselves Romioi, our language Romeika, Hellenism as Romiosini, and the Greek-inhabited world as Romanía... All Greeks know, it's the foreigners that don't.
View on Reddit #79144529

DrBri4ght@reddit

Holy based I'm an ancient history student, so really want to learn more of entire greek history I'll surely visit one day, but I suck at language, both ancient and modern ( I am yet to even close the 1st drade exam, despite being in 3rd grade)
View on Reddit #79148430

ve_rushing@reddit

Dude dressed in style, that's for sure.
View on Reddit #79113156

Yarrrak31@reddit

For three days the miserable inhabitants were given over to lust and cruelty of a mob of savages. Neither sex nor age was spared. Women and children were tortured before being put to death. So great was the slaughter that Kolokotronis himself says that, from the gate to the citadel his horse’s hoofs never touched the ground. His path of triumph was carpeted with corpses. At the end of two days, the wretched remnant of the Mussulmans were deliberately collected, to the number of some two thousand souls, of every age and sex, but principally women and children, were led out to a ravine in the neighboring mountains and there butchered like cattle.\[31\] Although the total estimates of the casualties vary, the Turkish, Muslim Albanian and Jewish population of the Peloponnese had ceased to exist as a settled community.\[2\] Some estimates of the Turkish and Muslim Albanian civilian deaths by the rebels range from 15,000, 20,000 or more out of 40,000 Muslim residents\[32\]\[33\] to 30,000 only in Tripolitsa.\[34\] Massacres of Turkish civilians started simultaneously with the outbreak of the revolt.\[28\]\[29\]\[35\]\[36\] Historian George Finlay claimed that the extermination of the Muslims in the rural districts was the result of a premeditated design and it proceeded more from the suggestions of men of letters, than from the revengeful feelings of the people.\[37\] William St. Clair wrote that: "The orgy of genocide exhausted itself in the Peloponnese only when there were no more Turks to kill."\[28\]
View on Reddit #79067909

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Literally no connection to this post but ok 🥀
View on Reddit #79068112

Yarrrak31@reddit

Just showing what kind of ''people'' your revolutionaries were. People who got genuine enjoyment from killing unarmed men, women and children
View on Reddit #79068404

pitogyros@reddit

I’m not gonna bring up the 1910s genocides but let’s go back to the time of tripoli massacre , you seem to conveniently forget to mention the much larger chios massacre by ottomans , which ( not so much ) fun fact , today 200+ years after the population of the island hasn’t recovered to its pre-massacre numbers
View on Reddit #79111301

_AmericanByChoice_@reddit

We unfortunately did worse in Chios. We not only murdered every man who refused to recite the shahada, we also kidnapped their children and made them slaves of the state.
View on Reddit #79069460

Porphyres@reddit

And the women over 40, and the children under 4 dont forget to mention that.
View on Reddit #79071167

_AmericanByChoice_@reddit

Yes. It is a tragedy that the memories of the victims are further dishonored by Turkey teaching generations of Turkish kids that Greeks committed genocide against Turks and that the Ottomans only acted in self defense.
View on Reddit #79071262

Yarrrak31@reddit

Give him your sister too. Maybe he will accept you then
View on Reddit #79072158

DurustveIlkeli@reddit

Bu kimankurta laf anlatamazsın uğraşma. Çok güzel yalar ecnebileri, özenti ve eziktir.
View on Reddit #79073997

_AmericanByChoice_@reddit

Ayıp ettin be Nihat baba.
View on Reddit #79091063

Sir_George@reddit

Gee, they must have learnt it from their Ottoman masters, displaying acts of courage against the poor Armenians and Kurds. I'm not denying that there were Greeks who committed barbaric acts. But trying to have a pissing contest over it instead of progressing to better states as a whole is amusing to say the least. There's a reason why the Greek government doesn't pester Turkey about the Greek genocides like Kurds, Armenians, and other groups do. It's based on the mutual understanding that we both did fucked up shit, and the best outcome is to coexist with each other.
View on Reddit #79080244

Lothronion@reddit

This claim has been thoroughly rejected. Feel free to check into [my arguments on this in this discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBalkans/comments/1kqbw9p/comment/mt5hyua/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), especially the ones further into my discussion with \[deleted\] (a compatriot of yours), [mainly the one with primary sources from the battlefield](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBalkans/comments/1kqbw9p/comment/nkiqv5c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), with strict orders by the Peloponnesian General on how they should not harm civilians. The reason why the Tripolitsa Siege was such a bloodbath was that the besieged defended till the end, even after the walls had been breached, mainly in hopes that they would manage to repeat what had happened in the previous siege of the city by Greeks, being in 1770 AD. Then, in the Greek Revolt of 1770 AD, with aid of the Russians, the Morean and Maniot Greeks would besiege the city for months, and the Tripolitsans were ready to surrender, but the Maniots in particular decided to rush into attacking them in order to get the biggest share of the loot, which forced the Tripolitsans into a desperate fight for their lives, from which they managed to emerge victorious, and thus Tripolitsa was never captured in that conflict. In this manner, their morale was boosted to the point that in the 1821 AD siege they thought they could repeat this feat, leading to their demise. And really, had they managed it again, the Greek Revolution would have constantly been about to collapse, especially with Mahmud Dramali Pasha's campaign in Corinthia and Argolis (in which if Tripolitsa had remained Turkish, it would have certainly made a counter-attack, in an attempt to join forces with him).
View on Reddit #79078100

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

"The Chios massacre was a catastrophe that resulted in the death, enslavement, and flight of about four-fifths of the total population of Greeks on the island of Chios by Ottoman troops during the Greek War of Independence in 1822. It is estimated that up to 100,000 people were killed or enslaved during the massacre, while up to 20,000 escaped as refugees." Just reminding you the filth called the Ottomans really were. 
View on Reddit #79068674

Yarrrak31@reddit

Nobody knows who committed the chios massacre meanwhile your revolutionaries the very people you idolize committed those massacres and they are revered as heroes in your country. Nobody in Turkey would say chios massacre was justified but the same can't be said about you and your massacres
View on Reddit #79068952

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Nobody knows who committed the Chios massacre?! Is this Turkish humor?
View on Reddit #79069193

Yarrrak31@reddit

I mean the people who did it are forgotten. We don't talk about how great they were. You on the other hand do
View on Reddit #79069360

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Atatürk slaughtered and burned the entire city of Smyrna in 1922, don't you remember him? Isn't he a hero to you? The IRONY 😂
View on Reddit #79069520

Yarrrak31@reddit

We are talking about history here not fiction. Venizelos nominated him for nobel peace prize
View on Reddit #79069824

8NkB8@reddit

>nominated him for nobel peace prize Unsuccessfully.
View on Reddit #79071972

Far_Rain7916@reddit

The Chios Massacre is one of the most documented events of the Greek War of Independence. It was carried out by Ottoman forces in 1822 after unrest on the island. Tens of thousands of civilians were killed or enslaved. It even shocked Europe at the time, artists like Eugene Delacroix painted it because it was so widely known.
View on Reddit #79069334

LLLLogic@reddit

100,000? Just say 100 milllion. Lie better when you are on it.
View on Reddit #79069028

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Yes, 100,000. I mean Google is free.
View on Reddit #79069245

elchapoguzman@reddit

Don’t worry you will get the chance to glorify your genocide
View on Reddit #79069324

Porphyres@reddit

Chios massacre, siege of Smyrna, Fall of Constantinople, Fall of Missolonghi what happened to the civilians?
View on Reddit #79068602

Far_Rain7916@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/0t4h3fqvi4lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=e538cbc67df4da1860d1ac4a1ec2f7225a9fa06a
View on Reddit #79068574

rarebigbrain@reddit

Wikipedia is not reliable source you know that right? It’s not academic. Also I see your comments on every topic trying to write something bad about the turks. And it was the Greek military who burned Smyrna down when they heard Turks surprisingly did not lose against England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Australia, New Zealand, Indian soldiers, Nepal’s brutally elite Ghurka soldiers, Greece, Britain’s African and Arab soldiers, Italy, France, Armenian soldiers ( they were either highest ranks in the ottoman army till the day they thought Turks gonna lose everything so let’s just make our Armenian country in the lands of the system that for many years gave us high ranks jobs, prosperity, life basically before the great powers take it from the Turks anyway) so they switched sides suddenly whilst ottomans were dealing with all that. And let’s not forget that we are talking about a system that has just fought with Russia ( Polish, Ukrainians, Lithuanians + parts of the Balkans ( Balkans were divided( some wanted the ottomans, others didn’t want them so population in every country was divided ( please don’t ever make it look like nobody wanted the ottomans because there were millions of ottoman soldiers with Albanian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Macedonian roots in the ottoman army). And don’t come at me with hate because my best friend right now is Greek. Okay? When Greek Army stationed in Izmir ( or Smyrna as you call it) heard Atatürk is coming down after the surprisingly not losing, Greeks burnt down everything on their way to the coast and Greek soldiers didn’t even wait for their boats to come to withdraw back. They tried to swim away…. Why do you burn the towns when you are withdrawing? And don’t come at me blaming the ottomans for Armenian diaspora because modern Turkey invited G5 countries + Armenia to open up their archives on live TV program regarding whether genocide happened or no but guess what! Armenia didn’t want to participate. It’s a fact that Ottoman system was multi cultural and there were all sort of nationalities from all religions even in high rank positions. Just as an example, how many times the ottomans saved Jewish population from Western European massacre? Even brought Jewish population who wanted to escape Western Europe to Istanbul with ottoman navy boats. There are many other examples with other nationalities but shortly there are Albanian, Greek , Jewish Neighbour hoods in Istanbul and other cities. Still exist nowadays, after so many wars. One thing for sure though, during the 600 year old Rule of the Ottoman empire, there was not risk of any nationality being extict, no risk to civils but when the wars were against the ottomans, you guys every time fought in a way that you tried to wipe out the Turks, Muslim even the Jewish. Greek, Armenian, Jewish population still lives in Black Sea region after so many wars so bro stop your propaganda and stop trying to spread hate among people . Misery loves company… but seriously stop it. Go find yourself a new hobby instead of just spreading hate among people. There is so many nice things to talk about , why do you least talk about wars? And for your information Turkey still maintains with its own money Churches, Synagogues and other cultural buildings in Turkey and outside Turkey. Greece for example does not maintain the mosques in Greece. Turkey pays for it all. Just as a small example. You gotta stop spreading hate and start showing more love because it’s love that will secure a better future for all people around the world regardless of color and religion.
View on Reddit #79089812

Far_Rain7916@reddit

First, nobody is “spreading hate.” Discussing history, especially violent history, us not hatred. Telling people to “find a hobby” instead of responding to specific claims is just emotional deflection. Second, the Smyrna fire is still historically disputed. There are Turkish sources blaming retreating Greeks, and there are foreign eyewitness accounts (American, British, French diplomats and missionaries on the ground) attributing the main destruction to Turkish forces after entry. Serious historians debate it. Presenting one version as unquestionable fact isn’t accuracy, it’s nationalism. Third, the “Ottoman system was multicultural so genocide couldn’t happen” argument doesn’t hold. Many empires were multi ethnic and still carried out mass expulsions or massacres when they felt threatened. Being multicultural for centuries does not immunize a state from committing crimes during collapse. History is full of regimes that tolerated diversity, until they didn’t. Fourth, the “Armenia refused archives” point is misleading. Ottoman archives have been open in various degrees for decades and have been used by historians worldwide. The dispute today isn’t about lack of documents,it’s about interpretation of intent and classification. Saying “come on live TV and debate” isn’t how academic history works. Fifth, the “no nationality was at risk of extinction for 600 years” claim is simply not accurate. There were repeated massacres, population transfers, and repression across centuries in various regions. Seventh, modern Turkey maintaining churches and synagogues is good. That’s positive. But modern preservation policy doesn’t retroactively settle early 20th-century historical debates. Let's not even debate that Agia Sofia was turned into a mosque. And finally, the “my best friend is Greek” line doesn’t make historical arguments stronger. It just tries to soften the tone. If you want real reconciliation, it starts with acknowledging complexity and pain on all sides, not by declaring one side pure and the other propaganda. You’re right about one thing though: love and stability matter more than endless hatred. But love built on denial isn’t reconciliation. It’s silence.
View on Reddit #79091080

rarebigbrain@reddit

No point discussing with a robot who keeps ignoring what you say and repeating what it says over and over. You have obviously had your hobby for a while. You are not open to discussion, hate has taken over your vision and obviously been brainwashed.
View on Reddit #79092636

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Surprise surprise the people you had under occupation for generations, and have committed multiple genocides against, which you refuse to acknowledge even to this day, hates your country. I've answered every single of your points, paragraph by paragraph, but I guess it's easy to pretend that's ignoring what you said. Here's what an actual robot said. https://preview.redd.it/zjhfrrtmh7lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=50805f8c141ae498fe1830d0d28aac8775667c8e
View on Reddit #79093097

rarebigbrain@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/i06e9loov7lg1.jpeg?width=1289&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4a7dd5aa96cdbe0595e10272c7e2996f5368fd80 Here is proof that genocide didn’t happen. Armenians started a war that didn’t go the way they wanted it. Just like the Greeks started or Byzantian emperors started a war that also didn’t finish the way they want. They called Turks bunch of peasant living in tents and ordered to get them killed and byzantians nearly succeeded that. Here is another proof that Greeks started that. Bro you can’t just start a war and blame the other side for the outcome of a war. You even hired Turks to fight Turks. You telling me you hate Turkish because of history. So following your logic Turks should also hate you for what byzantians did to the turkic tribes?????? Dont ever but ever, ever, ever, ever forget that the reasons why Turks are in Anatolia today is because of what the Byzanrian empire started. So why do you so desperately want another war?? In Turkish there is a saying “ the wrestler who can’t win, can’t stop wishing more wrestling”. You are giving modern Greeks are a bad name because the Greeks that I know are educated, friendly and not hostile and do not hold grudges like you do. Seriously man it’s your choice but a friendly advice, don’t be so full of hate towards people who are trying to build a good relationship with you. Peace, peace, peace ☮️ Love, music, food, travel, culture, friendship, positivity, understanding, compassion and humanity is what is going to make the future better. Stop talking about fight and battles and hate in every Balkan topic. It’s not nice.
View on Reddit #79096914

rarebigbrain@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/3h3ts21h08lg1.jpeg?width=1192&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c96c9ee67341d19774aa45a82b4ffeb7c87dda2b Greeks had problems with Armenians and tried to use the Turks against them. Later Greeks had problems with Turks and tried, still trying to turn Armenians against Turks. Stop causing problems guys. Greece is the spoiled kid of Europe who has problems with Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Turkey. With all of its neighbours. Maybe you should look for the problem in yourself then? It can’t be all your neighbors right?
View on Reddit #79097098

Far_Rain7916@reddit

“Greece has problems with all its neighbors”? Really? Greece is in the EU and NATO with Bulgaria and Romania. It normalized relations with North Macedonia via the Prespa Agreement. It has open borders and strong trade with Albania. It has zero military occupation of any neighbor. Now compare that with Turkey: – Military presence in Cyprus since 1974 – Cross-border operations in Syria and Iraq – Closed border with Armenia for decades – Constant Aegean airspace violations – Ongoing tensions with the EU and US If someone has recurring structural disputes with almost every surrounding country, maybe the “spoiled kid” narrative is pointing the wrong direction. And no, acknowledging historical events isn’t “turning Armenians against Turks.” That’s just called not rewriting history. Stop projecting.
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rarebigbrain@reddit

I am not even turkish. So you can’t say anything to me. Second you should stop bullying Macedonia. You even made the country change its name to North Macedonia. You now look at the map and see North Macedonia. Where is the south, where is the west? You divided the country. Third. Please finally pay your water bill to Bulgaria. You stole all the water and been stealing it for years. And your problems with Bulgaria date back to Nikifor 1 Greek ruler Genik who attempted genocide towards Bulgarians but also failed. You guys have problems with everybody so stop acting up
View on Reddit #79098210

rarebigbrain@reddit

You should also stop making Albanian summer workers underpaid and sometimes you cut their money. Not nice. Dont forget the Romanians the Greek army killed. You spit on Germany because of history but you hide behind EU when you are loosing a war that you started. Also pay back the EU, ok?
View on Reddit #79098376

Far_Rain7916@reddit

You've devolved so much that you're writing pure nonsense now. What do you mean pay back the eu? For what? For the debt? Greece is forcing Albanians to do what? Any proof? We spit on Germany? You mean because of the nazis? So much for love huh? Get lost.
View on Reddit #79098542

rarebigbrain@reddit

All this time I have been writing about love and peace and you knowingly used this special way to respond to me. I responded one time like you did several times and now you telling me to get lost. What’s up buddy, did you get taste of your own and you didn’t like it or what? Why can’t you have a normal discussion?
View on Reddit #79099204

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Smartest turk right here.
View on Reddit #79099484

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Least genocidal turk right here. Even Japan doesn't deny the atrocities they did in ww2 to such an extent but I guess blaming the victims of the genocide is a unique Turkish move. You’re doing three classic denial moves at once: deflection, whataboutism, and rewriting timelines. First: “Armenians started a war.” No. The Ottoman government ordered the mass deportation of its entire Armenian civilian population in 1915 during the Armenian Genocide. Women. Children. Elderly. Entire villages emptied and marched into the Syrian desert. That’s not “losing a war.” That’s state policy. Even if some Armenian revolutionary groups existed (they did), collective punishment of an entire ethnic group is not “war.” It’s extermination. That’s why the majority of genocide scholars classify it as genocide. Not because of vibes. Because of documentation, Ottoman records, German allies’ reports, US diplomats, missionaries. Second: “Western historians say it was retaliatory.” No. The International Association of Genocide Scholars formally recognizes it as genocide. So does the European Parliament. This isn’t some fringe opinion. It’s the mainstream academic position. Calling it “Western propaganda” is just a convenient way to dismiss mountains of evidence. Third: bringing up Byzantines and medieval wars. The Fall of Constantinople happened in 1453. The genocide happened in 1915 during World War I. That’s a 462 year gap. By your logic, every modern country should be settling medieval scores. You don’t get to justify 20th-century mass deportations by citing 11th-century battles. That’s not how history works. Fourth: “Both sides killed each other.” Yes, there was violence. No serious historian denies that eastern Anatolia was chaotic during WWI. But there’s a massive difference between local intercommunal violence and a centralized government issuing deportation orders targeting an entire ethnicity. One is civil conflict. The other is organized removal of a population. And finally, stop pretending criticism of the Ottoman government equals hatred of modern Turks. Modern Germans acknowledge Nazi crimes without melting down. Accountability ≠ ethnic hatred. You’re preaching “peace, love, friendship” while denying documented mass death. Peace isn’t built on denial. It’s built on acknowledging what happened.
View on Reddit #79097267

rarebigbrain@reddit

You ignore everything done and focus on the final result. Wrestler example comes again. Bye…..
View on Reddit #79097427

rarebigbrain@reddit

I wish you all the best and spend some time in nature. It’s good for your health.
View on Reddit #79097447

rarebigbrain@reddit

I still love Greece and its people, despite your hateful comments I love you too and wish you the best.
View on Reddit #79097497

Far_Rain7916@reddit

You love me too while you deny every single genocide your great grandparents and grandparents committed, while you blame the victims, while you deny genocides aknowledged by the eu parliament and by the International association of genocide scholars... Sure, the Germans also loved the Jews I guess.
View on Reddit #79097679

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Here's AI response https://preview.redd.it/o1mmc62j67lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=ed214f0b9d561d649515ee02ea6ec62440cd1757
View on Reddit #79090833

Valianve@reddit

peak war criminal🔥 https://preview.redd.it/hdrkrxxvh4lg1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d8c29e5bf37ec4726046dfe2dea68e7c516a4eb
View on Reddit #79068207

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Too cowards to even fight the nazis. https://preview.redd.it/9m192m7pj4lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=e8bbab36acf5d6e7b1918e427a91a28c4e65f559
View on Reddit #79068892

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

You fought, and what happened? Don't confuse courage with foolishness. 🤣
View on Reddit #79069674

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Is education illegal in turkey? Only propaganda is allowed nowadays? While Greece was fighting both fascist Italy and nazi Germany, Turkey was signing 'neutrality agreements' with the nazis. https://preview.redd.it/setctnfmm4lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=6403e24d3100cad3be6dc8e84f84f375e18f94b4
View on Reddit #79070023

elorkinus@reddit

Am I understanding you right? Are you blaming us for not going to war and letting millions of people die? You know Turkey had just come out of a war, the country was in a really bad situation, trying to rebuild, and our population was very small. That’s why there was a population exchange back then. So are you seriously criticizing us for not going up against what was basically a superpower while we were in such a fragile state? Is that what you mean?
View on Reddit #79071204

Far_Rain7916@reddit

A population exchange happened because your country committed multiple genocides against Armenians and Anatolian Greeks based on their religion and nationality. I guess it's a lot to expect from some countries to fight against the nazis, especially when the country is turkey, which Hitler was looking to for inspiration. Greece had also come out of a war. Didn't stop us. https://preview.redd.it/ucuae31is4lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=d7d7e580aec113ab51eb74fb3020a9d372f651c9
View on Reddit #79071952

elorkinus@reddit

Sure, apparently Turks are also responsible for killing the dinosaurs, right? Look, I can understand a lot of things. Historically you’ve got issues with us, fine, I don’t really care. I’m a Balkan Turk and an Azerbaijani Turk too, and I know very well what was done to people like me by your side. I get why you’re upset. I really do. But why is it our fault that we didn’t enter World War II? That’s the part I still don’t understand. My people don’t deserve to be killed, no matter how you want to frame it. We went through poverty and suffering. And if we had joined the war, maybe we would have ended up under Soviet occupation and become a communist Turkey. I get that you might hate Turks, but for me… I don’t know bro. We are living rent free in your brain.
View on Reddit #79072381

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Only a turk could belong to a country that has committed one atrocity after another, killing women, children and the elderly in some of the most horrific genocides this world has known (just go and read what Hemingway said about Turks when he witnessed women holding their dead babies as they were forced to death marches in the desert by the ottomans), yet be so shameless as to pretend he's the victim. You live rent free in our brains because the evil you've done can't be forgotten. The fact that you didn't even lift a finger to fight the nazis is what was expected from you, certainly wasn't a surprise.
View on Reddit #79073148

elorkinus@reddit

So in your eyes we’re guilty if we go to war, and guilty if we don’t. I’m not trying to change your mind or convince you of anything. After World War I, you already occupied Anatolia, and yes, you killed our people too. We complain a little, that’s all. I wish we could complain as much as you do. Since we’re a nation that came out victorious, nobody remembers our suffering anyway. But that’s not even the point. It’s not my job to explain things to you, and honestly I don’t care. This is just the internet. I was only trying to understand why we’re blamed for not fighting against the Nazis, but you keep pulling the topic in different directions. Here’s the reality though: I have a home in Greece, I have great friends there, and I even like Athens a lot, it’s a great place for dating and social life. I’ve had plenty of same-day lays there. These things weren’t such a big deal ten years ago. Relax a bit, the world has changed. And if you’re looking for war criminals, maybe look at your own prime minister. Go tell him something, since he’s made deals with the Israeli prime minister. If you accuse us of not fighting the Nazis, then you should also question your own alliances.
View on Reddit #79073838

Far_Rain7916@reddit

In 1913 the young Turks started killing armenians and Greeks in Anatolia because they were frustrated that the ottoman empire was losing so much territory, and because they were nationalists who wanted a country filled with Muslim Turks. Since Armenians didn't have a country the young turks proceeded to a full blown genocide that resulted in the death of 1.2 million people. Since Greeks had a country the Turks did what was called a white genocide, killing 250-500k people but never admitting they were doing it. When the Greek army invaded in 1919 the people in Smyrna hailed them as liberators. You didn't win anything. You built your country in the backs of a genocide, and the funny thing is that you do the same thing today with the Kurds, who helped you be 'victorious'. The fact that you are an opportunistic country that didn't even fight the nazis just shows that you'd never help anyone no matter the evil they face. Which is interesting because Turks here always say to Europeans they're the protestors of Europe and that they can only protect Europe from Russia, when in reality turkey is the biggest suck up to Russia. As for your last comment regarding Israel. I recognize the genocide in Palestine. 70.000 souls died for nothing. But these numbers would make your great grandparents blush. The fact that you pretend Israel is so evil for killing 70k people, while your country annihilated more than 1.6 million unarmed civilians just 100, years ago is peak irony. Turkey has founded hamas, hezbolla,invaded syria, Cyprus, and is a constant aggressor toward Greece. I'm pleased you're embarrassed your country didn't fight the greatest evil imaginable. If today the next Hitler appeared, Erdogan would become his close friend.
View on Reddit #79090667

elorkinus@reddit

Nope. You are wrong
View on Reddit #79096192

MajinaiHanashi@reddit

Why are you wasting your time with these losers? At this point it's hereditary putrid behaviour. That specific creature keeps spamming a wikipedia page but if you mention the result of their revolts, more than 5.5 million butchered and at least that many forcefully deported, suddenly it's not a genocide. Because in their smooth brains, people, whose ancestors have been there for centuries were occupiers. Small nations have big hatred. You can see that on this sub on a daily basis. Then they go about "bRIGaDinG!!", lmao.
View on Reddit #79074041

Far_Rain7916@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/osuva90667lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=bb95cbac5160cf636f5c6ae468ea0dc255c2bc27
View on Reddit #79090752

elorkinus@reddit

I m not going to answer. And also my point was ww2. He blames us to not fighting in the ww2.
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Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

What does that have to do with the education system, my friend? Are you drunk or something? Turkey managed to remain neutral through superior diplomatic maneuvers. If the Greeks don't have the capacity to do that, there's nothing we can do.
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Far_Rain7916@reddit

Only a turk would be proud that his country was so pussy made that it made pacts with the nazis, while their enemies fought them head on, with a 10-1 numbers in favor of the enemy, and we still destroyed Italy and Mussolini.
View on Reddit #79070349

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

You may have slowed Mussolini down, but not the Nazis. What a shame 😂
View on Reddit #79070444

8NkB8@reddit

Hey, it wasn't all bad. The experience of the 1940s gave the Greeks a headstart in Korea.
View on Reddit #79072210

Far_Rain7916@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/mayk1798o4lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=810efe451549382f89c2ac880b0f6e41817a22e3
View on Reddit #79070564

Deep-Ad4183@reddit

Same ideology, same practices. Neutrality = contribution
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Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

Why should we join the Europeans' stupid war? Please give just one reason. Of course, we didn't join the war and didn't destroy our country.
View on Reddit #79070373

Deep-Ad4183@reddit

Greece did not get involved in the war. They gave it an ultimatum, and it simply did not give in, while you managed to suck up to Hitler's fascism so that he would not bother you. But I forgot. Hitler admired the genocidal Kemal in order to ultimately perfect his practices. This is your modern country.
View on Reddit #79070566

Bilmemkineyapsam@reddit

>But I forgot. Hitler admired the genocidal Kemal in order to ultimately perfect his practices. Can you give me some sources of Hitler’s admiration of Kemal Ataturk, and Ataturk being genocidal?
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DimGenn2@reddit

Try "Atatürk in the Nazi Imagination" by Stefan Ihrig, and "The Thirty-Year Genocide" by Benny Morris and Dror Ze'evi.
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Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

It's not our fault that you're incompetent, my friend.
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Valianve@reddit

life after ragebaiting all my komşus https://i.redd.it/4bwzz5p1l4lg1.gif
View on Reddit #79069449

SOHONEYSAME@reddit

🇬🇷🇷🇺😍😍 (historically, ofc).
View on Reddit #79068840

personthatssorandom@reddit

Turk still salty 200 years later.
View on Reddit #79076885

Far_Rain7916@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/l6tkm66gi4lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=b265f1f5f5d3211f014f9a5d74ce35786bc8dcce
View on Reddit #79068418

Valianve@reddit

no atatürk? common atatürk W 🗣️🔥
View on Reddit #79068544

Ujemegaz@reddit

Enver 🇦🇱 Ataturk 🇦🇱 😏
View on Reddit #79072801

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Least genocidal turk
View on Reddit #79068725

RossMxx@reddit

Ye that was pay time for four centuries of Turkish oppression, during which countless more atrocities against the Christians took place. Sounds rough by today's standards, but you have to view it within the historic context. The Ottomans commited similar attrocities in the range of millions of victims and even 100 years later to the Greek Revolution.
View on Reddit #79068518

Yarrrak31@reddit

I'm sure local Turkish peasants oppressed them very badly. Just say you support the massacre of Turkish civilians and get it out of your system. It's bad to hold it in
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8NkB8@reddit

>local Turkish peasants Surely innocent people were killed, but the Ottoman occupation of the Peloponnese was far from benevolent. Let's not lose sight of that fact.
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Deep-Ad4183@reddit

Turks? The people were Muslims, and many of them were Islamized. It's unlikely that they knew three Turkish phrases to say.
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RossMxx@reddit

I said you should view it within the historic context. Take into account that they were part of the ethnic group oppressing the local population for centuries. And again, Tripolitsa scales nowhere near the etho-religious cleansing that took place in Anatolia a hundred years later (including peasant). Do you support those?
View on Reddit #79069181

Far_Rain7916@reddit

Dude your country has killed more than 1.2 million Armenians and 500k Anatolian Greeks based on their nationality and religion. A literal genocide. The fact that you pretend the occupiers were the victims here is insane. https://preview.redd.it/eh5gdbi7k4lg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=2bfacca2233745c5a2e1c7ad0ee55d3338f21edc
View on Reddit #79069092

Super-Albatross-7134@reddit

The Russian showed their empty promises for support to the cause 
View on Reddit #79108184

kroolframer1@reddit

Um I'm thinking about what to eat.
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Yarrrak31@reddit

>After his release, he retired to Vienna, where he died in extreme poverty and misery on 29 January 1828. Lol. You would have never made it without outside help btw. Lucky motherfuckers
View on Reddit #79066340

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Somebody salty after 205 years 🤭
View on Reddit #79066589

rarebigbrain@reddit

You know why the Aegean Sea is so salty right?
View on Reddit #79100776

FickleChange7630@reddit

Same guys who also deny the Armenian genocide by the way.
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Neutrinomind@reddit

Acting like ottoman themselves weren’t propped by France or England in it’s survival wars against Russia.
View on Reddit #79067720

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

They were literally aided by 5 different countries in the Greek Revolution. They were so much demolished by the Greek revolutionaries that they asked Egypt for help, lol.
View on Reddit #79068464

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

How can you lie without shame? It's the exact opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence?wprov=sfti1#
View on Reddit #79069237

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Are you actually denying you begged Egypt for help, and promised them Crete in return? Are you actually saying that?
View on Reddit #79069341

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

Don't play dumb, buddy. Look at the countries supporting Greece. Even America supported you. Let's forget that. Did you really think you could beat us without foreign aid? What a strange fantasy world.
View on Reddit #79069483

maraudee@reddit

Still crying after 200 years. LoL.
View on Reddit #79094124

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Why did you beg Egypt for help, you didn't answer my question! 
View on Reddit #79069799

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

We begged for the same reason you begged all the other countries in the world.
View on Reddit #79069863

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

An empire calling for help is not the same as an occupied people revolting. It's absolutely disgraceful, actually humiliating.
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Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

Yes, they are revolutionaries, but all the superpowers in the world support them. It's a pretty fair fight.
View on Reddit #79070212

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

You are confused, let me enlighten you. The Revolution started in 1821, and up to 1824 there were no foreign powers involved, it was 1x1. Greek revolutionaries absolutely demolished the Ottomans. The Ottomans asked Egypt for help in 1825, as they were losing very badly. Muhammad Ali invades Greece. In 1827, two years after Egypt's invasion, a Western fleet comes to Greece and destroys the Turko-Egyptian navy in Navarino. So, what are you talking about? You are the one that wanted to involve foreigners, and still you were crushed. LOL
View on Reddit #79070575

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

Foreigners? Egypt was the Ottoman Empire's puppet. What a beautiful fantasy world.
View on Reddit #79070873

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Egypt invaded the Ottoman Empire and stopped in Kütahya only because Russia intervened. The Egyptians would enter Constantinople and end your "empire" if the West once again didn't save you. That happened in 1833, literally 5 years after they were defeated in Greece. That's what you call puppet, LMAO
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Yarrrak31@reddit

Ottomans abolished janissary corps and were reorganizing their military. Mehmed Ali pasha took advantage of that and tried to take the throne for himself. This is just Ottoman civil war. Egyptian rulers spoke Turkish all the way to the 1950s. Egyptian soldiers were just cannon fodder. More than 90% of the wealth was held by Ottoman elites while egyptians were poor peasants
View on Reddit #79073530

Yarrrak31@reddit

>Until the 1952 revolution, Egypt was dominated by an elite made up of interrelated families of Turkish, Circassian and Albanian origin known to historians as the Turco-Circassian elite who owned most of the land, upon which the fellaheen (Egyptian peasants) toiled as tenant farmers. The Turco-Circassian aristocracy made up less than 1% of the population, but owned 3/4 of all the farmland in Egypt.\[13\] Egypt under the rule of the Mohammad Ali dynasty was characterized by some of the starkest income disparities in the world as the rich in Egypt tended to be extremely rich while the poor tended to be extremely poor.
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Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

Nothing you say proves anything. The expedition to Greece was led by Ibrahim Pasha, son of Muhammad Ali, and he was sent on the orders of the Ottoman sultan. This also shows that they were under the sultan's command.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Orders my ass, the Sultan promised him Crete, Thassos, and any land in Greece he occupied against the Revolutionaries. The Ottomans gave them the lands they promised even though both defeated by Greece. Egypt almost captured Constantinople, stopped only through Russian intervention. Egypt commands you, not the other way around. Either way, you both lost 🇬🇷
View on Reddit #79073105

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

Yes, because all other countries in the world supported Greece, but that's okay. If you look at it today, you'll see who is truly powerful. Greece still has the same policy of begging other foreign countries for protection in the face of Turkey's domestic defense industry and weapons.
View on Reddit #79073443

Yarrrak31@reddit

You realize Egypt was a part of the Ottoman Empire, right?
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Literally just on paper, just reminding you Egypt a couple years later declared war on the Ottomans and conquered them up to Anatolia.
View on Reddit #79069713

Own-Volume-2203@reddit

Same goes to you with Russian help, Turkey would be 1/3rd of what it is.
View on Reddit #79066977

Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

Are you kidding me? The Italians, the British, the French, the Armenians, and the Greeks joined forces, but you still couldn't defeat us. It's pathetic, and yet you still talk nonsense about the tiny bit of help the Soviets gave.
View on Reddit #79068313

Own-Volume-2203@reddit

It's not my job to educate you, I know the propaganda machine works turbo in Turkey, there's plenty of good historians who are unbiased. Greeks alone almost reached Ankara and would have reclaimed their ancestral lands were it not for the Russians helping Ataturk.
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Yarrrak31@reddit

They just provided us with rifles. It's not like we had people fighting for us. We did the fighting and not only kicked your ass but also gave you a free swimming lesson :)
View on Reddit #79069107

Own-Volume-2203@reddit

Keep dreaming impoverished Turkish kid. I kinda pity low poor IQs like you 😂
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Gloomy-Potato6280@reddit

If anyone says the Greeks were alone in this war, they're no smarter than a monkey. The Armenians, British, and French were officially occupying us. So we were fighting these countries just like we were fighting the Greeks. How can it be so hard to understand this?
View on Reddit #79068962

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Literally would have never made it without the Soviets
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Porphyres@reddit

The ottomans (who are not the same as modern Turks) needed help from Egypt.
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Hyllius1@reddit

From what I've read, the promise was that Mehmet Ali and his son were to keep any area they put down the rebellion in. Had not the Arvanites been at each others throats, maybe the intervention of the British and the French would not have been needed.
View on Reddit #79067882

Porphyres@reddit

The Arvanites aren't a force in the Greek war of independence.
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Hyllius1@reddit

Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure they had military leaders with lots of renown.
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Porphyres@reddit

They are part of the Greek forces they aren't a separate force.
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Hyllius1@reddit

I'm starting to suspect you for being a bot. I'm talking about the arvanite generals who would not share power once they liberated large areas from the Ottomans. Instead they would use these so called "forces" on each other. It's called an internal military conflict. And it is famously known that arvanites were more stubborn than donkeys. Especially the Suliotes. Thus my comment earlier, "if they wouldn't be at each others throats".
View on Reddit #79069059

Porphyres@reddit

Who are these "Arvanite generals"? The Greek civil war of 1823 was fought among wealthy merchants, proestoi (local Greek landowners) and the armed forces. As I said, Arvanites are not a separate force in the Greek war of independence, they fought on either side.
View on Reddit #79069331

baxulax@reddit

Cope more
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wolfm333@reddit

Unfortunately doomed from the start and in the end created issues with the local Romanians thus sabotaging his own narrative about a PanChristian Balkan uprising.
View on Reddit #79096614

Porphyres@reddit

Pontic legend.
View on Reddit #79067084

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

Wait, really?
View on Reddit #79067317

FidelKosta@reddit

Thought he was born in Phanari in Constantinople. Comes from a phanariot family. The fact that Greeks who served the Russian state and the king were had pontic origin.
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NoItem5389@reddit

Yup
View on Reddit #79070084

SOHONEYSAME@reddit

checks out. MANY of the Greeks in the Russian Empire were Pontic.
View on Reddit #79071372

NastyFarang@reddit

Pretty much all of them
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Atherdain@reddit

I visited his grave in Vienna, at least the original one by accident when looking for Mozarts alleged grave.
View on Reddit #79095863

Ambitious-Fly5264@reddit

Greece was totally owned by Britain after that.
View on Reddit #79094406

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

The British Sultan sends his regards Subhanallah 🤲
View on Reddit #79094443

Radiant_Formal6511@reddit

Least zesty Greek
View on Reddit #79093054

Neutrinomind@reddit

He should have started the revolution back in Russia or even in the greek populated lands. He was a phanariote educated in imperial Russia, so due to both his background and environment he inherited the bad habit to expect romanian resources to use/exploit for foreign causes to them. But he was at least a daring idealist.
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ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

That wouldn't be a revolution, that would be just words. He led an army in the Balkans themselves, declaring war against Ottoman tyranny and proclaiming revolution and freedom for the Balkan people. Don't expect him to be perfect either, but something had to be done after centuries of occupation.
View on Reddit #79068878

Baly999@reddit

He had no army when he crossed the river. He formed the sacred band while in Moldova and hr only managed to bring in some hundreds of people to his side woth the aid of the phanariotes there, then proceeded to betray his ally Vladimirescu and his army of thousands and get his ass handed to him by the Ottomans at Dragasani. He declared a war when the russian tsar was at a european congress meant to prevent any further revolutions in Europe and immediately lost the tsar's support for an independent Greece Kapodistrias worked so hard to obtain. Man had big ideas, but was incredibly shit at putting them into practice. I know he's painted as some sort of ideal hero in Greece, but he was an incompetent buffoon. That's why it took almost 10 years for you to get your independence. Shooting yourself in the foot as well as your allies is Byzantium's strongest legacy to the Greeks.
View on Reddit #79092905

AgentDoty@reddit

Most straight looking Greek
View on Reddit #79084813

ClothesZestyclose814@reddit (OP)

No way you sexualize Ypsilantis, you good?
View on Reddit #79089951

Adept-One-4632@reddit

They brought the execution of Tudor Vladimirescu and sabotaged our own uprising
View on Reddit #79086281

Mithlorin@reddit

Cool fez!
View on Reddit #79070716

NoItem5389@reddit

Proud to be a Pontic Greek
View on Reddit #79070093

SOHONEYSAME@reddit

ήρωες.
View on Reddit #79066007

AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit

Greetings, Your post/comment was removed from r/AskBalkans for not following rule #4 "Post in English". Posts and top-level comments should be in English, so please translate whatever you had to say. *Exceptions are posts flaired "Controversial" where all comments are to be made in English. Cheers.
View on Reddit #79069423