Audi’s New 630 HP RS5 Somehow Weighs More Than A V8 F-150 SuperCab
Posted by user289734@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 409 comments
Posted by user289734@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 409 comments
bikedork5000@reddit
But you can spend $10k extra for ceramic brakes and save 66lbs!
TheFatZyzz@reddit
ROFL
Cultural-Context4489@reddit
I’ll never forget the first time my brother let me drive his m6. It was like driving a fucken missile! These heavy ass sedans just seem annoying. I don’t understand how some use them as a daily
ewitkowski@reddit
The answer is the weight of the battery. It’s a hybrid. At least the extra weight is low.
Flaky-Remove4449@reddit
All these new hybrid system performance sedans/wagons are getting insanely heavy.
James_Vowles@reddit
The rear end is so good on the saloon, wide arches and short boot. More car companies need styling like that, gives Jaguar vibes. Too bad about the rest of it
hermitcraftfan135@reddit
What I wonder: does it actually matter to anyone buying cars like this? Everyone here and elsewhere complains how it makes these cars worse on twisty roads, but I have to imagine that nearly everyone buying expensive performance wagons today are not doing that, at least not very often.
asp1346@reddit
A light weight car will obviously be a lot better handling. Big heavy performance cars with boat loads of power suffer on two fronts. If you want a heavy car to corner well, you have to stiffen up the suspension. If you’re daily driving a car like that, that often means reduced refinement. Mercedes is especially guilty of this with the new C43/63. Additionally you need larger brakes and better tires - both wear parts that cost $$$$ to replace.
If pushing the envelope in terms of driving characteristics is what you’re after, the formula is pretty simple. Keep weight down. Lotus knows this and has routinely demonstrated it.
Merc and Audi are definitely no longer “fun” cars. I really want to like this new rs5 but I’m almost certain it’s going to be a let down from a visceral experience standpoint
Smart-As-Duck@reddit
I’m interested to buy one as a commuter. The weight, while not ideal, is not that big a deal for me.
strongmanass@reddit
In my experience it's not as big an issue as forum users make it seem. You feel the weight in tight sections that require quick direction changes, but most of the time heavy performance cars feel very balanced and wear the weight well. The lightbulb only really goes off when you drive a much lighter car and feel how much nimbler it is. But if the heavy performance car is your only car then that becomes moot.
People will talk about track readiness, but buyers of these cars overwhelmingly do not drive on track. BMW has said this repeatedly, and out of M3-4/RS5/C63, M3 buyers are the most likely to attend track days.
gimpwiz@reddit
I've seen a C63 AMG on track, it's obviously capable of being on track, but it was kind of a joke, like bringing any other soft-sprung muscle car to a road course track. It's fast as fuck in a straight line and loses so, so much time in the corners.
fullofshitandcum@reddit
But at the same time, not every car needs to have track prowess to be fun.
I'm not dissing on the miata, but I would find it morel, fun to hustle something like a C63, or a charger, or even pickup trucks on a track, than the mjiatka. Not that driving a sporty car isn't fun, but coercing something not meant for it is so gratifying to me
withoutapaddle@reddit
I mean, I sometimes go from my Supercrew F-150 to my GTI or RX-7, and yeah, it feels insane how lumbering and slow the F-150 feels, because of the weight. It actually has a faster 0-60 time than my RX-7, but at the same time, the momentum of the truck feels like trying to steer the titanic away from an iceburg whenever you're on loose surfaces like snow/ice. It's just not fun to drive the truck "fun", even with 4x4, locked diff, etc. Nothing can cancel out the physics of weight and momentum.
It's sad to me to see the "norm" for performance cars seemingly overnight shift from 3000lbs to 5000lbs.
strongmanass@reddit
That's because your F150 has soft suspension and a high center of gravity. A 5000 pound performance car feels different.
It's not the norm. It's a specific formula the Germans are trying right now for their sedans. But the M3/M4 are still non PHEV and will only get a mild hybrid for the next generation. And there are lots of other sports cars still in the 3000 pound range.
withoutapaddle@reddit
That has nothing to do with momentum. Less body roll doesn't reduce the mass or velocity. The same amount of mass still needs to change directions and the given speed.
As long as the available grip is this hypothetical snow/ice is lower than the rollover point of a truck (let's say 0.8g), then the truck won't corner any slower than a sportscar on the same tires.
But regardless, yes, you're right about not all cars getting bloated, but as a German fan, it feels like most are, because that's what I'm paying attention to, sadly. Maybe It's time to go back to my Mazda roots and find an ND for summers. It's hard to find the time to work on my RX-7 these days, and they aren't exactly low maintenance cars.
It's kind of cementing my theory that the 3000lbs 350hp Cayman I borrowed a while back is my perfect attainable sportscar, and I need to prioritize buying one of those when they hit the bottom of their depreciation curve in the next 5 years or so.
We're definitely going to see the end of the <3000lb sportscar in the coming decades. I don't want to lose the chance to pick one up.
frankchn@reddit
The other thing is that if someone can drop $100k on a brand new RS5/RS6 or M3/M5, then they probably also have enough money to buy a new Miata/86/whatever for weekend fun if they want.
Jewniversal_Remote@reddit
I think what gets lost in this argument, is that if you can afford to drive a "slow car fast", you can afford to drive a "fast car fast". And honestly even with the theoretical time loss and compromise of sliding an M5 around a track, the time gained in other areas is just outright better.
Yes, some rich people still like owning a Miata and throwing it around and feeling how nice and nimble it is. But if that was the overwhelming majority we wouldn't see GT3 RS, Huracan, AMG GT and so on because "A Miata could beat it in the corner why not just buy a Miata"
frankchn@reddit
Oh yeah of course, if people are in the tracking a GT3RS/Huracan levels of wealthy, then they are just buying M5s as dailies and don't care about the weight.
Jewniversal_Remote@reddit
Yeah you're right, that was a bad comparison.
I think what I meant is that most people shopping M5s also probably have more fun pushing that car or an M2/M3/RS3/CLE63 at 4/10s with better acceleration and noise compared to a Miata/86 at 7/10ths and driving at a limit where you really have to lock in more.
strongmanass@reddit
M5 and RS6 yes. But M3/RS5/C63 are often bought by younger guys in apartments who don't have the space for a second car. Then again these are also the people who shouldn't be going to track regularly if they need their car to get to work.
fitnessCTanesthesia@reddit
No it doesn’t matter cause no one buying these cars new is racing or tracking them, or even thinking about how much they weigh. It’s only reddit.
StevoJ89@reddit
That's true for so many things though, outside of reddit...in real life nobody cares or even knows about half the bullish people here are constantly loosing their minds over.
RafaelSeco@reddit
Are they worse on twisty roads? Sure, they don't give you that light go kart feeling, but none of the RS4s ever did.
Just look at the c63se. Heavy, plug in, inline 4, stupidly fast everywhere...
Plus, it's a plug in, so it's much easier to live in, has all the features and comforts you could ask for.
If it wasn't for the insane price in Europe, the change from V8 to inline 4, and the lack of noise, it probably would have been a hit.
So, I honestly believe that this rs5 will be a hit, especially in Europe. It's the perfect recipe for a perfect Audi daily.
madman1969@reddit
You'll be glad to know they're dropping the inline 4 for 6 and 8 cylinder engines for the C53/63.
Officially it's because of EU emissions for the 4 are 'too difficult', but it's more likely nobody was buying a 4 cylinder C63.
RafaelSeco@reddit
It's kinda true, to be fair. Cars like the a45 were made to go around displacement taxes, but fortunately Europe is going the right way and taxing the actual emissions and fuel consumption.
I'd still rather have a c450/450d. Not a huge fan of the over aggressiveness of modern AMGs.
Mountain_Swan_149@reddit
I have only tried this in a Porsche Taycan, but the car has such minimal body roll and high stiffness that you don't feel the weight/length until you start to really push it in canyons.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
What I’m wondering is at what weight do these performance cars start to really eat consumables at a pace that becomes noticeable for the owner? If all you want is the fast straight line experience and this car fills that need, are you going to be unhappy when you wear through brakes and tires much more rapidly because you’re hauling around that extra weight?
frankchn@reddit
Not for the first owner really. Leasing a new G90 BMW M5 for 36k miles/36 months cost ~$2000/month before tax.
New tires for the M5 are currently around $2100 for a set of four PSS5s, so pessimistically if you have to change tires every 10k miles, that will only increase your cost of ownership by about 10% or so over the lifetime of the lease.
coyote_of_the_month@reddit
And you aren't going to wear out the first set of brake pads during the lease unless you track it.
throw_me_away3478@reddit
Reddit is generally out of touch and /r/cars is doubly so
coyote_of_the_month@reddit
Are you trying to say that the subreddit that continually bashes the best-selling cars in the home country of most of its users is out of touch?
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
I think the base S5 and all of the BMW 2 series luck very ugly but none of their owners care one bit.
KingMario05@reddit
No lmao
Quizzie@reddit
If they made it lighter and didn't increase the size every generation, it would probably attract buyers who plan on hitting more twisty roads. I know I'd be looking to buy one. Instead it attracts buyers who want big cruisers, on top of people who'll always buy it because it has an RS badge. IMO there's a market either way.
costafilh0@reddit
Somehow? It's a hybrid, that's how!
Nomad624@reddit
Most full EV powertrains weigh 1300lbs. A hybrid system cannot single-handedly add that much weight.
kubyx@reddit
For all of the complaining on here, I personally find this car intriguing and I'll withhold judgement until it can actually be driven. Pros I see:
1) Significantly improved aesthetics (my opinion, of course). Looks more the part of what I expect an RS variant to look.
2) 50 miles of electric range is no slouch - you can legitimately drive this thing as a pure EV for most of your driving if you wish, which is a nice perk in a DD.
3) Pledge to reduce understeer.
The only verifiable downside of the weight that I can think of is added wear on the tires. Whether this thing will handle like a boat, or if they have implemented some magic to improve the playfulness of the car, is TBD.
For someone who wants a mixture of a fun and practical (...as practical as one can be for this type of car) DD, I'm intrigued.
alphagypsy@reddit
Let’s be honest though, if you’re going to daily drive this to work in EV mode, what the hell is the point of buying this? You could buy a Nissan leaf for a fraction of the price and do the same thing. Nobody buys a high performance car to drive it in EV mode that literally sucks all the fun out of driving it.
Nomad624@reddit
There are times where you want to drive fast, and times where you're cruising along with traffic, or stuck in traffic, or at a light, or parking. Frequent short drives are also bad for the engine. This is the case with EVERY single daily driver. So it makes sense, with current technology, to allow any car to use electric propulsion in all the times where you don't need or want to drive fast.
kubyx@reddit
I think the reality for most people is that not every moment of their driving allows for opportunity to rip in a 600+ hp car, but it's still nice to have it when you can, right?
I would say 75% of my driving to/from work and general errands is done on roads with <45 mph speed limits and stop lights every block or so. I'd rather just drive in EV mode those times and maybe rip the car once or twice when opportunity allows. The other 25% of the time when I have the opportunity to unleash 600+ hp, it would be fun and appreciated to have it.
I doubt my situation is in any way unique.
adamfps@reddit
Yeah true bumper to bumper traffic really makes me appreciate by 490hp in my car. I get to enjoy all my opportunities to get to.. 30mph
smegma-cheesecake@reddit
I liked it more when you could barely distinguish between the normal and rs model
Intel_Oil@reddit
Same here, this is the first Audi Wagon i'm considering since the RS4 B8 with the 4.2l.
The 2.9l is a lovely, tunable engine and the electric range will bring me to office and back and lets me pickup groceries and the Wife without having to wake up the ICE from its slumber to barely rev above idle for 15 minutes.
Its als WIDE.
Dan6erbond2@reddit
Same here. Reddit will whine that this car won't be nimble and that it's too complex due to the hybrid, but Audi and Porsche know what they're doing to mask the weight of this car for most purposes. I take my S5 to the Alps quite frequently and don't really have an issue with its handling.
The hybrid means you can actually protect the engine and save a ton of gas if you're commuting under 20-30kms which is the case for most people in Europe at least. Just use the engine when you need the range or want to have fun on some backroads.
It looks aggressive, finally beats the power of its Merc/BMW competition and let's be honest Redditors aren't the target group since only a small number of enthusiasts can afford this. It will mostly be bought as a company car by small business owners and in general people with more money than sense who probably don't need more than an A5 but want to flex the RS and 600HP.
I could see myself getting one on lease in 3-4 years once Audi has ironed out any kinks and I'm done with the S5.
purz@reddit
Honestly it’s all social media and most of it is just people whining about incorrect things. I watched a lot on the new RS3 before buying an 8.5Y and the amount of misinformation by commentators and often the people test driving themselves was hilarious.
From tracking it one day so far it MAYBE barely has slightly more understeer than a RWD car. It’s hard to say cause it’s an odd feeling to get use to. The car feels very AWD and pushing it you’ll get an initial feel that can feel like the start of understeer but the torque vectoring kicks in and corrects it. Feel like a lot of reviewers just automatically assume understeer and freak out instead of sending it and adapting. Most of them are probably mediocre drivers though so not surprising.
This car might end up having a similar feel so I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets “understeer” reviews that are overblown.
I just hope the avant- comes over and I end up liking it. Cause I don’t feel great spending ~90k on a 30-40k RS6 and I want a damn sports wagon before I’m an old man lol.
Dan6erbond2@reddit
Agreed. Audi generally gets a huge understeer rep online but then I started pushing my S5 and I find I can toss it quite well through the corners in the Alps, or even on tracks like Monza. I've also had no troubles outpacing my buddy's Giulia which everyone loves for its handling. Obviously the S5 puts down more power but even in the corners it's no slouch.
I think the issue is everyone hears about understeer online and, as you said, they translate that into a sort of fear that Audi can't keep up with Merc/BMW which I've never actually had happen IRL. Most people aren't good enough drivers to push the car to that point and Redditors act like they're the next Schumacher.
Obviously physics still exists and the RS5 is heavy, but let's not forget that Audi and Porsche work on these cars together, especially the suspension so I'm expecting that most people won't be able to take this car to its limits anyway. And if a hybrid is what the RS5 needs to continue being a V6 I don't mind it at all, especially when the benefit is enough range for my commute I can see this being the perfect daily driver + fun car combo.
Same goes for the M5. I'm glad BMW found a way to keep the V8, and I'm assuming Audi will do the same for the next gen RS6/RS7. And it's pretty cool that in many countries the hybrids will be cheaper than lower tier M3s/RS3s, just makes it more compelling IMO.
natek11@reddit
I think the front looks pretty ugly personally.
norf937@reddit
Between this and the new M5, manufacturers are really losing the plot.
People used to knock the Model S Plaid for its weight, and now it’s lighter than the M5 and RS5 & would absolutely smoke both of them.
Drzhivago138@reddit
How do you make a high-performance hybrid model light?
Xivios@reddit
Aluminium unibody and panels would be a start. Should be entirely viable at this price point, especially as they used to (maybe still do?) build the A8 out of aluminium.
nafnaf0@reddit
BMW just gave up on the weight savings all together and ditched aluminum structures for steel
Xivios@reddit
That's a shame.
Intrepid-Working-731@reddit
My question is, why is the battery so big? It’s 22kWh, the one on the C63 is 6kWh and the one in the M5 is 18.6kWh.
Of course, the RS5 offers the most rated EV range that being 50 miles compared to the 8 miles on the C63 and around 40 miles on the M5, but who is buying an RS5 for EV range?
Surely a smaller battery would’ve kept the weight lower, why is this one so big?
nafnaf0@reddit
With a PHEV you want to have the range. 22kWh is about as small as you would want to go honestly. In the future hopefully they will get lighter. Solid state batteries promise energy densities around 500kW.kg or higher, which is about double what we have now.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Lose the plug-in part of it. A regular hybrid typically weighs less because it has a smaller battery.
Ph1sic@reddit
Plug-ins offer tax reductions in alot of markets though
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
I understand that. But there's clearly a big tradeoff.
Ph1sic@reddit
I dont think the tradeoff is that big for the majority of the customers. Paying potentially hundreds of dollars less each month in taxes could be a big incentive to overcome the massive weight gain that comes with it.
hvperRL@reddit
Normies do not give a flying fuck for car weight. Just wanting it to handle the weekend shop and daily commute covers 99% of customers
CookInKona@reddit
Normies also don't care about 600+ hp for their daily drivers, the people shopping for a 600+hp saloon care about weight and performance though
nafnaf0@reddit
Yeah I would say the driving dynamics and engagement is the most important for a sporty car, look at the current 992.2 911 Carrera, it 'only' has 390hp, my mid-low spec BMW X5 SUV from 3 years ago has more power than that and much more torque. BEVs do a better job at getting tons of straight-line performance out of car, but sacrifice driving dynamics and engagement. Many don't want BEVs because of the charging, deprecation, and 50% higher insurance costs.
Stren509@reddit
People that will buy this will buy it because its fast and expensive and shows to others its fast and expensive. It meets that criteria while saving a bunch of fuel if you can plug in regularly.
redd5ive@reddit
The C63 flopped and there are 600 unsold M5s sitting on dealer lots in the US - people don't want these refrigerators.
Clover-kun@reddit
Meanwhile there are over 4400 brand new Corvettes sitting on lots as well in the US. Clearly the hybrid part matters very little to people who are (and aren't) buying these cars
redd5ive@reddit
Corvette makes a ton more Corvettes than BMW makes M5s and we are half a decade into C8 production, so I am not sure that is a great comparison.
Clover-kun@reddit
GM has always made more Corvette's than BMW has made M5s, which is why there are so many just sitting on lots. Even then a few years ago you couldn't get a C8 without going on a waiting list, now days even the Z06 is struggling to move, and even here in Canada (the land of no deals) I'm getting ads for 0% financing for Z06s. That and BMW has been making a lot more M cars now (not including M-lites) than in the past.
The actual point is that high end sports cars are just not moving in large numbers, it's a market problem not a drivetrain problem.
Iplay1965jaguar@reddit
This buyer that you guys keep bringing up doesn’t exist and the c63 is the proof.
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Stren509@reddit
I don’t agree, the same buyer im describing wouldn’t want a c63. Im not saying the buyer wont care how the power is made just wont care if its heavy and lacks cornering feel or steering feel. But a well earning person that is willing to spend for big powerful also wants big powerful engine. I personally have the mindset if I am buying a car I want to be powerful 4 cylinders are completely out. In general a 4 cyl is only an option if the car is very light. Much over 3000lbs and im just not buying a 4 cyl no matter how much turbos superchargers or ev power you add.
jorsiem@reddit
That would be true for sports cars but for performance sedans it's all about flexing
dial_m_for_me@reddit
Everyone but him is a normie. If he was making a car it would be MANUAL and it would weigh like 500kgs, and would have a 50/50 weight distribuition. Engineers and other people who buy performance cars are stupid. His 2002 Ford Siesta would gap any modern car, they're all too bulky and have unnecessary options real car people don't need. Like heated steering and windshield wipers.
hvperRL@reddit
No. This is a luxury car. 600+ HP is expected but not the primary selling point.
HP is also the most easily marketable feature for normies.
Lightweight is marketing for enthusiasts
jorsiem@reddit
...and be able to flex that your car has X horsepower and X seconds to 60
openmind365@reddit
True, however you DO feel 5,000+ lbs regardless of what you're driving, especially when braking.
SuperMundaneHero@reddit
Which is why the Camry is the correct choice for them.
big_cock_lach@reddit
Another way to think about it would be if you’d be willing to pay an extra ~$50k for the M5 if it was 200kg lighter.
To those thinking that they would because that weight saving would suddenly make this car desirable to them, keep in mind that this would now have a similar price to a 911 GTS. So while you might think you’d be happy to make the tradeoff, the reality is that if the price was the same, nearly everyone would pick the Porsche.
J0kutyypp1@reddit
Not to mention being tens of thousands cheaper to buy. Here in Finland M5 is cheaper than M3 due to emission based based taxes. In M3 you pay 55k in taxes because It's not a hybrid while M5 is only 11k
Elvis1404@reddit
To be fair, if you can afford to buy one of these beasts in Europe you can also afford the additional 40k€ in taxes...
moltenice09@reddit
Just because something is 100k+ doesn't make a 40ish percent increase in price more palatable than a similar increase in a 25k car.
Emergency_Buddy@reddit
Exactly, and in my market it isn’t just a few hundred a month, but more like 80k-100k when buying.
rwbronco@reddit
I think that trade-off is worth it to most people. I’ve got a V60 plugin wagon and will eventually replace it with another plugin hybrid - performance or otherwise. I fill up 2-3 times per year, it’s plenty fast, and there’s no range anxiety. I’m just a random guy, but I’m the demographic for these vehicles and once I got a taste of not paying for gas I was sold on the tech - trade-offs and all.
Shomegrown@reddit
Well the other side of the trade-off is the car not existing at all. So I'll take the option of them existing.
Grego7@reddit
But do performance cars buyers even need tax reduction?
You don't usually buy an M5 or RS6 as the only car in the family.
hereistoyou@reddit
Governments artificially make up these regulations in the name of the climate fear scam. Just so they can place burden on corporations and take tax payer money. None of this is to “save the planet.”
ExplosiveMachine@reddit
Please keep politics and conspiracies out of this subreddit.
Real_Imagination_180@reddit
Honestly the people buying this doesn't really care about tax writeoffs
blackscienceman9@reddit
When the m5 is cheaper than an m3 in some countries because of taxes they care
Also every rich person cares about tax lmao. Obsessively so in many cases
Senior_Order7241@reddit
One of incredibly few times it’s good to be American
da_bear@reddit
Plug-im actually increases registration fees in my state, so a pure hybrid is often cheaper.
epihocic@reddit
Slowly people are realising it’s actually the other bit you want to lose.
epihocic@reddit
Slowly people are realising it’s actually the other bit you want to lose.
crosscheck87@reddit
Yeah except the majority of the population that doesn’t have a convenient place to plug in.
rwbronco@reddit
Lol it’s a $130,000 vehicle. You trying to say people with that kind of money don’t have a place to plug it in at night?
crosscheck87@reddit
We’re not talking specifically the RS5, retard, we’re talking generally about full hybrids vs plug in hybrids.
Obviously if you can afford the RS5 you’ve probably got the means to figure out how to keep it plugged up.
verdegrrl@reddit
No insults.
rwbronco@reddit
Everyone in here is talking about high-performance hybrids. Specifically the thread you replied to, and you replied with "the majority of the population doesn't have a convenient place to plug in." The majority of the population isn't shopping for a high-performance hybrid, plugin-in or not. Whether they have a place to plug one in is completely irrelevant, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring it up in the first place. You're the only one in here that can't follow a thread and has to resort to name-calling.
epihocic@reddit
The majority of people don't live in a home? You sure about that?
Drzhivago138@reddit
They don't necessarily live in a single-unit home with access to a fast charger.
epihocic@reddit
Nice goal post moving there.
ChairmanMatt@reddit
Doesn't "convenient place to plug in" preclude plugging in without fast charger option, because that doesn't count as convenient precisely because it's not fast?
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
No? I leave my Lightning plugged in overnight if it needs charging. Works fine.
ChairmanMatt@reddit
Isn't 120v non-fast charging limited to like 1kw or so? Depending on how far you drive and how frequently you need to drive that might be a problem
Or maybe it's a difference in understanding of what constitutes fast charging, I was thinking of the 9+ kw chargers at home and not the stuff like Tesla Superchargers
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Ah! Gotcha, so that's a good question.
120v returns around 1.4-1.9Kw in most receptacles. For most EVs, this means around ~5 miles per hour since the average EV miles/kwh is ~3.
If you get home at 8, plug in, leave for work around 7 or so, that's 46 miles of charge provided at 1.4kw or ~62 miles at 1.9kw.
For most people, this is fine. Obviously there will be usecases where this doesn't fit, and those people should consider a 240V outlet or a gas/hybrid vehicle.
epihocic@reddit
Not everyone needs fast charging. I have an EV I do not have a fast charger, so no it doesn’t. I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding around EVs, and charging and range.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Explain how I moved the goalpost when I wasn't even the original commenter.
crosscheck87@reddit
Bingo.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
https://geolytics.com/different-types-of-housing-in-america
Most people live in single family homes.
jorsiem@reddit
Yes but you can't escalate power with ICE to keep up with rivals while complying with emission regulations at the same time.
Taymerica1389@reddit
Due to Europe regulations they need the plug-in to lower fleet emissions during tests and avoid sanctions.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Without the plugin this wouldn't exist at all in europe no? It's only due to the incredible testing benefits of PHEV that they can get away w any of these cars in their current form?
gitwiz89@reddit
Then why do G series M2/3/4 exist
Jewniversal_Remote@reddit
Because of the 330e and the 550e? And the i4 and the i5? And the other plug in hybrid and full-electric SUVs that BMW offers? I'm not entirely sure you understand that the PHEVs offset the performance cars, while also still offering a good option for those that don't want an M car.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They are previous generation cars, just as the rs4 was fine until now, their time will come as well, this rs5 is going to live into the 2030s
The next gen M3 is going to offer an ICE & outright EV, while the M5 is already PHEV, & mercedes opted out of dropping a e63 altogether sticking w a phev e53
Imakeshittycardesign@reddit
The next gen M3 won't be a PHEV though, just a mild hybrid which usually doesn't add more than 50 kilos. Should have been an option for Audi as well.
Jack-of-the-Shadows@reddit
Thats like 50-75 kilos, what about the the other 500+ it gained over the years?
nafnaf0@reddit
In the future solid state batteries could reduce the weight of the batteries by about half, but that is going to be in the 2030-2035 time frame.
Gandalf_the_fun@reddit
Wait until solid batteries come out.
mastawyrm@reddit
I heard about those over a decade ago, how long until this magical promise actually comes out?
Gandalf_the_fun@reddit
No idea lol, but if they stick to the plug-in hybrid technology, this is the only way out.
jontss@reddit
Carbon fibre chassis? BMW did it twice.
Salt-Plankton436@reddit
By not making it hybrid and limited run
arup02@reddit
Honest question but why does it need to be a hybrid at all
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
I believe it’s to meet some European emission standards but not 100% on that.
Imakeshittycardesign@reddit
Yes and no. Making a 6 cylinder Euro 7 compliant is possible. BMW will launch the G84 M3 without a PHEV system while remaining the straight 6 engine. What you lose out on is tax incentives which make PHEVs significantly cheaper in many European markets. It's like a trade off. A PHEV will make you lose customers who want a lighter car but win you customers who want to benefit from tax incentives. Seems like Audi and BMW came to different conclusions what's more important to them.
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
Then why bother making the M5 a PHEV? Admittedly, I know nothing about the tax incentives, but I figure most M5 buyers don’t give a shit about a few $k.
Imakeshittycardesign@reddit
According to BMW it was a necessity to keep the V8 alive. I assume making a V8 compliant in Europe is a lot harder.
leedle1234@reddit
It is, I believe they get some kind of big emissions credit if they hit a high enough percentage of total vehicle range in "EV mode". That's on top of the flawed "heavier vehicle = lower emissions standard" they have also.
footpole@reddit
I don’t think we have that in the eu. It’s co2 emissions that count and PHEV brings that down. It’s a flawed metric of course since people don’t charge.
leedle1234@reddit
The way they test PHEVs is where what I said comes from. The testing for CO2 emissions gives more credit to PHEVs if they hit a certain threshold in EV mode. Much more than the reality of emissions in real life.
Actual text of the regulations I'm having trouble finding, but quick search shows this article with some of the details:
Specific regulation is the ZLEV bonus.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/cars-climate-brief-4-why-credits-for-electric-car-sales-should-not-weaken-co2-targets
PHEVs to gain up to 0.3 more credits than they would otherwise receive, with some models receiving 0.37 credits instead of 0.1 without the multiplier.
PHEVs with low official emissions (below 50 gCO2/km) to significantly reduce a manufacturer's compliance target.
Alieges@reddit
Percentage of total range? Great. It’s got a 5 gallon gas tank standard… problem solved.
leedle1234@reddit
You joke but that's actually what has been happening. It was an obvious loophole manufacturers were utilizing that many in the media brought up when previewing/reviewing cars built around those regulations started coming out. Only recently have there been some talks about amending the incentives.
gimpwiz@reddit
I think all personal vehicles should be held to the same standards.
Allowances for heavier weight make sense for commercial vehicles - because they simply carry more, within the higher fuel usage. No matter how you slice it, an 18-wheeler isn't getting 30mpg, but even at 6mpg it's plenty efficient for carrying 80,000lb versus a family sedan getting 30mpg and carrying 4,000lb.
But personal use is personal use, if you're gonna have emissions standards, the only thing that really matters is how much you pollute vs how many people-miles you travel. And the amount of people carried by personal vehicles is similar enough across the basic types and sizes of personal vehicles that we shouldn't be encouraging people to buy bigger ones just to claim that they might carry more people in order to get laxer standards.
Discouraging overly heavy vehicles also makes everyone safer, except for the people who could be riding in overly heavy vehicles I suppose.
icecream_specialist@reddit
The problem is how do you define a commercial vehicle. That's the original source of the problem, they picked a cutoff based on weight because at the time the only things that heavy were trucks and trucks weren't as widespread commuter vehicles like they are now. Now any vehicles over a certain GVWR at least in tax code can qualify as commercial depending on percentage of business vs personal use. But that also meant a Gwagen can be a commercial vehicle even though nowhere is it getting used the same way as a panel van does.
Matos3001@reddit
Commercial vehicles are already well defined in EU law. It really isn’t an issue.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Yep. My '67 C10 (1/2 ton farm truck with an 8ft bed) has a GVWR of 5000lbs.
My '24 Frontier (midsize offroader) has a GVWR of just over 6000lbs.
Drzhivago138@reddit
At the time 6K GVWR was the traditional cutoff between 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton, so in 1975 when the new emissions standards dropped the Big 3 all made "heavy halfs" that were juuuust over 6K to get past the stricter standards.
747WakeTurbulance@reddit
They also eat through tires 50% faster adding to that pollution that they conveniently ignore.
leedle1234@reddit
Tire wear is 2000x more particulate matter than current tailpipe emissions allow for. Hell it is 3-5x more than UNFILTERED diesel exhaust. Tire pollution is a much more serious issue issue to solve than what we currently do where we are just squeezing single digit % more MPG out of cars.
arup02@reddit
Makes sense, thanks.
Shomegrown@reddit
As said, taxation incentives - especially in the realm of high priced executive corporate leases.
Making the car as a PHEV with decent electric range gives it a market. With the tax incentives they can be leased dirt cheap, much like there are tax advantages in the US to leasing certain classes of vehicles.
arup02@reddit
Interesting, makes sense. Thanks.
woowoo293@reddit
Everyone is saying emissions, but I thought the reason for plug-in functionality on high-performance cars was to provide instant power while the turbo is spooling up.
boostedb1mmer@reddit
Turbos don't "spool up" on modern performance cars anymore. The proper way to design a turbo system is so well understood now that the days of turbo lag are a decade behind us. A properly designed system will be making target boost by 3k RPM now and you NEVER want to be trying to make power in a gas engine below that anyway.
Dr__Nick@reddit
If that was all You needed it for you could just supercharge it.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
BMW engineers said for the M5 it was the only way to keep the twin turbo V8 with EU emissions
arup02@reddit
Makes sense, thank you
B_tC@reddit
Because a 140.000$ dollar car with a worse 0-60 stat than any base trim tesla would look bad
AnimalShithouse@reddit
Optimize the mass. Use more aluminum. Make meaningful tradeoffs in different attributes. Or do what the dodge charger did and just fucking make it a boat.
gozit@reddit
Lose the hybrid completely. We don't fucking want it. Leave the hybrids, PHEVs, and EVs to the commuter cars. Stop messing with the performance cars.
Intrepid-Working-731@reddit
My question is, why is the battery so big? It’s 22kWh, the one on the C63 is 6kWh and the one in the M5 is 18.6kWh. Surely a smaller battery would’ve kept the weight lower, why is this one so big?
Adventurous-Ebb-6405@reddit
Using expensive aluminum alloy instead of steel
Confirmed_AM_EGINEER@reddit
Easily. Lose the luxury features. Make the battery smaller. Make the car smaller.
When a full electric vehicle with more power and more range is lighter than the hybrid then the electric gubbins are clearly not the problem.
People in general have really lost the plot on what "performance" means. It does not mean number goes up faster alone.
Drzhivago138@reddit
So it's a VW?
Confirmed_AM_EGINEER@reddit
You want performance or luxury. Pick one.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Me personally? I really don't go for either. But there are plenty of people who want both and don't care if it's heavy as a result.
dont_wear_a_C@reddit
Lose the target market? lol
Cessnaporsche01@reddit
Based on the new Charger, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say: Do better chassis and body engineering. The powertrains seem to be inexpensive, weight-wise, compared to all the guff they put into the rest of the car
FriendshipGlass8158@reddit
Make it purely electric…these cars are completely pointless.
badr3plicant@reddit
This can cruise at 200 km/h. Try that in an EV and you'll be stopping to charge every 45 minutes.
ag2f@reddit
Why would you need to cruise at 200 km/h? Not even legal anywhere expect for Germany Autobahn.
badr3plicant@reddit
...exactly. It's a high-performance German sedan.
I don't generally drive that fast but I do regularly cruise at 140 km/h on long road trips, with occasional sprints well above that. You just can't do that in an EV.
kubyx@reddit
Congrats to you. EVs are very suitable for the remaining 99.99999% of the population.
xlb250@reddit
80+mph is really common around California, especially on road trips routes.
kubyx@reddit
I suppose I missed the part where my Tesla can't go 80 mph on a road trip.
Hasn't the anti-EV mantra on here been overplayed yet, or are we still doing this?
badr3plicant@reddit
Not saying they aren't. But we're not talking about a Honda CRV or a Kia Niro here. This is a >$100k sedan, not a mass-market vehicle. They sell a few thousand per year across the entire planet. You may not agree that the use cases for it are legitimate, but they do exist.
ag2f@reddit
doesn't matter if it's a German car, it's sold worldwide and can't be driven at 200 km/h in the majority of the countries
UrineFilledAquarium@reddit
Sometimes you just gotta break the law brother
ag2f@reddit
I don't see the point, but you do you
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
I was one of the faster drivers on the autobahn for two hours in a Ford Puma ST cruising around 150-160. Lmao you don’t need a RS5 twin turbo v6 hybrid to do that. An audi a3 quattro will do it already with 220 hp.
badr3plicant@reddit
True. Nobody needs this kind of power. My point was only that an EV is not suitable for high speed cruising, so if you want a car that can accelerate hard and drive fast for hours at a time, an EV can't do it.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
Not defending this thing in particular but you know that fuel economy also is ass cheeks at 200 km/hr too, right? That’s why so few people on the autobahn in real life are going more than about 150 km/hr. I was one of the fastest cruisers out there in a rental Ford Puma ST and only was passed a handful of time over two hours. Getting that low fuel economy isn’t worth it to save ten minutes when fuel costs 2 euro per liter.
badr3plicant@reddit
If I'm only driving 5000 km per year, and much of it for fun, the total cost difference isn't significant. Fuel economy only matters if you're commuting, and you probably shouldn't do that in a 500hp twin-turbo V6.
LBTerra@reddit
How often do you think you be fuelling cruising at 200kph in an RS5? Probably not much different than the EV.
badr3plicant@reddit
I've personally never driven that fast for any length of time in mine, but I'll do about 400km on a tank of gas at 140, through the mountains, with occasional bursts of flat-out acceleration to 200. There isn't an EV on the planet that could match that - they simply don't have the energy available to overcome that much wind resistance for that long.
LBTerra@reddit
That’s not what your original comment said though. You were directly comparing an EV to this car at a speed of 200 km/h. We both know either vehicle driving at that speed cruising is not going to last very long whether it’s charge or gas tank. It’s just a disingenuous comparison.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
Not defending this thing in particular but you know that fuel economy also is ass cheeks at 200 km/hr too, right? That’s why so few people on the autobahn in real life are going more than about 150 km/hr. I was one of the fastest cruisers out there in a rental Ford Puma ST and only was passed a handful of time over two hours. Getting that low fuel economy isn’t worth it to save ten minutes when fuel costs 2 euro per liter.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
Mild hybrids are VEEERRY different than electric
FriendshipGlass8158@reddit
True. They are worse in every regard.
leftlanespawncamper@reddit
Except recharging/refueling time and recharging/refueling infrastructure. It's going to be a while before you can recharge an EV with the ease and speed you can currently refuel an ICE vehicle.
rolphi@reddit
I recharge an EV at my house. I can’t refuel an ICE vehicle in my garage. It’s already easier.
leftlanespawncamper@reddit
Which is great if you a) have a house, b) never drive far enough to need to recharge before returning to your house, and c) always have enough time between uses of your car to sufficiently charge it.
FriendshipGlass8158@reddit
Of corse. And all the millions of EV drivers obviously just don't know this...what bullshit
jhowlett@reddit
I have to imagine the amount the prospective buyers for 100k + super sedans have a place to charge them. I don't typically see them street parked.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
I’m a theoretical customer for a high(ish) end EV. I have a house. I cannot charge at said house because it would require many thousands of dollars of electrical work to make it feasible due to the age of my house. At a spry 77 years old it is one of the newer homes in my neighborhood. Many such cases all across the US. The challenge is larger than I think people realize.
jhowlett@reddit
I suppose that could certainly be an issue, I'm not an EV super fan or anything. Somehow a few of my neighbors with houses built in the 50s have EV charging. Maybe they paid more than I imagined for the install. I haven't looked into the install costs but weren't some manufacturers either paying for or helping with the cost to install?
FriendshipGlass8158@reddit
It must be magic....Holy cow.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
The problem in my neighborhood is not isolated to the install necessarily, rather it’s the need for a whole new main box in the basement. Our homes weren’t built to accommodate that kind of draw, but they can be retrofitted if you’re willing to pay up. The quote I got in 2022 was about $3,000 (did not include the charger) and I have to think it’s only gotten more expensive the last few years. If properly motivated it’s a barrier that can be overcome, but if you’re a car company your nightmare is buyers having any obstacles in between them your product.
doubletwist@reddit
There's a good chance it actually wouldn't.
To start with, see https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/wiki/load_management
A load balancing EVSE can share a circuit with something like the dryer or oven, and it'll reduce the amount going to the car only if the other appliance is in use, with no need to upgrade your panel. At most you'll want a higher quality outlet installed or pay to have a charger hardwired (preferred but by no means required).
Secondly, it also depends on how much you would be driving the vehicle on a typical day, and the range of the vehicle.
Obviously not everybody, but a lot of people (say anyone driving less than ~20-25mi/day) can get by 99% of the time with basic Level 1 (120V@15A - a normal household plug) charging, as long as they take the simple step of plugging in whenever the car is at home. A simple 2 second process. This will give about 2-3miles of range per hour of charging. Maybe a bit less in the winter. Those folks could just use an existing outlet, no additional cost at all.
The next step is Level 2 charging (240V @20-80A) which can intelligently share a circuit with existing appliances as noted above if you don't have sufficient headroom for a dedicated circuit. Most common are 40A and 48A (if hardwired) chargers. Mine is a 40A and even within my 7hr TimeOfUse window (cheaper rate) I'm able to add 63kWh to my battery, which is enough to take it from 10-80%, which gives me 200 miles a day I can drive. That covers WELL more than most people's daily driving needs, and I could squeeze out 300miles a day if I needed to (charge outside the cheaper time window and charge to 100% every day)
Even a slower charger sharing a 30A dryer or oven circuit could easily add 125-200 miles a day.
I believe it cost me about $250ish for a good Hubble EV rated receptacle and the electrician to install it. Though admittedly I didn't need load balancing. That might've cost another 500ish to get done. Well worth it to me to always have a full car ready for me every day, that only costs me about $5-10 for 300 miles of "fuel", and no longer have to go to the gas station 1-2 times a week, and no longer depend on petroleum prices (my service uses 100% wind power), and so on.
Yes, there are people who drive more than that, but 95% of people, if they are really honest about it will realize they almost never do. Even when I lived in silicon valley the longest daily commute I had was 'only' 150 miles, and I rarely did more than 200ish on those work days.
That leaves me paying very little (depending on your utility rates of course) for fuel on a daily basis, and then for the 4-6 times a year when I need to drive farther than that (road trips, quick jaunts down to Austin and back), then for every 200-250 miles I drive, I spend an extra 20-ish minutes charging at a public fast charger, which by the time I've driven that far, I need to stop for a drink and a pee anyway so by the time I get back to the car, it's ready to go again.
ag2f@reddit
Correct, mild hybrids are crap
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
Interesting, I don’t think they’re great but they have their use.
A 290 hp grecale feels quick and sounds good despite being a heavy car.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
The problem is that only applies to speed in a straight line. Once you’re taking a corner, physics takes hold and the bill comes due, always
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
Yea I know, but most of these mild hybrid cars are at most doing some mild to moderate canyoning.
ag2f@reddit
It does because it makes no real difference in consumption, it's a fake hybrid to meet regulations.
dateraviator0824@reddit
A lot of the tracks I drive at don't allow electric cars for safety reasons. I'm not sure what proportion of performance luxury car owners track their cars but I know a few guys who won't be upgrading to the new M5 or RS5 due to this very reason. I might just get a BRZ or GR86, lighter, rwd and more fun and have my current car as a daily.
Also are these actual pics or AI? That exhaust...
I_Am_Mandark_Hahaha@reddit
EREV is the way to go. Small motor just to charge the battery, which drives the car. You get EV torque and speed, and a range extender with the small engine.
patx35@reddit
We are talking about a performance sedan, not an economical highway cruiser. Most EREVs have a massive torque drop off past 120 km/h You will need high voltages and current to maintain strong acceleration, which would either require a big battery pack (heavy), or a bigger engine. Series hybrids have a inefficiency loss with high powered engines, so a traditional gearbox is used.
aschesklave@reddit
The Lamborghini Sian uses supercapacitors instead of batteries. But it's not exactly a true hybrid, just more of a KERS-type system.
cpxchewy@reddit
Sadly these need X km range on battery only mode to get special emissions approval to throw a V8/V6 in and also to get tax credits in Europe. That's why the KERS type system doesn't work in this case (fwiw this is basically Porsche T-hybrid but they still have a 1kw battery)
oralabora@reddit
You don’t make a hybrid.
leftlanespawncamper@reddit
Make it smaller, use lighter materials, reduce sound deadening rather than adding mechanisms to create more in-cabin noise, go N/A over turbocharged, use a smaller battery, stop convincing people they need four doors when they rarely have a single passenger.
x3nhydr4lutr1sx@reddit
Drop the engine.
cilantno@reddit
Has the M5 suffered a sales drop?
Clover-kun@reddit
In many parts of Europe the M5 outsold the M3
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
....because it's a hybrid and gets taxed differently so it's hardly more expensive and even cheaper in Ireland.
nafnaf0@reddit
Actually cheaper than a M3, I love the retard gov incentives
Clover-kun@reddit
And now you know why these big V8 super sedans are going plug-in. Next to no one actually tracks these cars, however a large portion of these car buyers do drive into low/no emissions zones in major cities, the oversized batteries and plugs let them do exactly that. Modern supercars are starting to do the same thing as well, Temerario is a plug in hybrid, but retains a screaming V8 that revs to 10k rpm
cilantno@reddit
By my calculations that is still outselling
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Ever heard of the phrase correlation doesn't equal causation? No one wants a Camry more than an M3 or M5. They only outsell because they're cheaper. Your calculation is a braindead take.
cilantno@reddit
By my calculations you’re miffed.
Shomegrown@reddit
Yup, the M5 can be leased for less than 300 pounds per month in the UK
Skensis@reddit
Yeah, traditional ICE performance cars are basically unaffordable for anyone outside the very rich in many European countries these days.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
The ven diagram of new car buyers (especially 100k+ cars) and the people who post on this forum basically looks like this: OO
professorberrynibble@reddit
I'm not even convinced the average poster on this sub owns a car.
htx1114@reddit
Well that's because nobody sells a manual diesel station wagon in the USA, of course!
LuPorr@reddit
You forgot brown.
htx1114@reddit
Ooof I knew something was missing
Jewniversal_Remote@reddit
Damn are we not doing nardo gray anymore
Intel_Oil@reddit
Used from factory
htx1114@reddit
Well we certainly aren't buying them overpriced and new!
agnaddthddude@reddit
it’s up month on month for the last 4 months here in MENA
cilantno@reddit
This sub (generic, not you) continues to me
agnaddthddude@reddit
im sorry, but i read this and i don’t understand it. what do you mean?
cilantno@reddit
Lmao I fat thumbed it. Fixed!
mandrsn1@reddit
It would smoke them in a straight line and have the most dull driving personality while doing so.
ScheduleUpstairs1204@reddit
EU regulations are fucking German brands up a lot
According_Most2914@reddit
Nah. The managers have been fucking up their brands quite successfully even without the EU regulations. They have been way too focussed on increasing margin per car instead of actually building cool cars.
bryty93@reddit
The F90 was on the money. I recently found out the CS variant is less than 100lb more than an E39 M5. Obviously msrp is way higher too, but didnt realize they kept the weight down that much in the CS.
KellerMB@reddit
All the people that want a light-ish connected agile driving experience can buy an Alfa Romeo QV.
All the people that want to buy an isolated straight line rocketship can buy an AMG/M/RS (or full EV).
There's a reason one of these companies is on life support and 3 are pumping out record weight hybrids with record sales. No one wants the light-ish connected agile car.
ow_windowmaker@reddit
Except you don't get a manual. So it's all shit. Across the board.
tablesheep@reddit
non manuelle est shit
mgobla@reddit
This has a reason, they do this on purpose: The HEAVIER the fleet average vehicle weight, the LESS money a manufacturer has to pay to EU. The LIGHTER the fleet average weight, the MORE money a manufacturer has to pay to EU. Extremely heavy models like this RAISE the fleet average weight, so the manufacturer saves many millions $ / € , has to pay much LESS to EU bc their fleet got HEAVIER.
Le_Vagabond@reddit
Source? They can't require weight for the sake of weight so there has to be a reason why, if this is the case...
mgobla@reddit
The reason is to protect / help european luxury car manufacturers.
donnysaysvacuum@reddit
In the US, CAFE encouraged similar backwards incentives by allowing worse fleet economy for larger footprint cars.
inbeforethelube@reddit
It was a poor implementation of a good idea. Governments didn’t realize the car manufacturers would just start making all their cars the size of a U-Haul.
donnysaysvacuum@reddit
Depends on what you call the idea. The whole system was backwards. If you want to reduce consumption, tax consumption.
Adventurous-Ebb-6405@reddit
The reason is that the battery is very heavy, plus the motor and internal combustion engine
villager_de@reddit
it’s also because if they add a PHEV drivetrain to their V8 models it actually makes a positive impact on their fleet emissions. A purely gas powered V8 would make Audi pay like 20k per car sold. If they add a PHEV to the V8, the car on paper as better emissions than a little Smart ForTwo and actually reimburses their overall fleet emissions by like 5k per car.
mgobla@reddit
They could easily build a V8 PHEV that weighs less and has the same emissions on paper. Or a V6 PHEV, this Audi is a V6. If it was just about emissions this model would weigh less. Bc the way fuel consumption / emissions of PHEVs gets measured is completely unrealistic a PHEV that gets 15 MPG on an empty battery IRL basically gets the same fuel economy on paper as one that gets 50 MPG on an empty battery IRL. Bc the offficial numbers just assume it drives in EV mode with zero emissions. So they can add weight witout emissions penalty. Same goes for EVs, ALL EVs get 0 emissions on paper, no matter how much engery they consume, A huge EV truck has the "same" emissions (zero) as the most efficient small EVs, so the lighter an EV the more the manufacturer has to pay.
ow_windowmaker@reddit
No, no, you don't understand, by "magic" they made the "suspension tuning" make it feel like it's 900 kilograms!
Honestly! All the youtube "journalist" shills told so!
costafilh0@reddit
At least the audi doesn't look like 🤮
DefinitelyNWYT@reddit
While I personally agree with the sentiment, I don't know that I agree they've lost their plot. Their plot has always been profit. With growing wealth I equality companies are pivoting more and more to cater to the ultra wealthy. They load these cars down with luxury gadgetry and premium options that clientele seemingly desires with a sports badge.
Dr__Nick@reddit
It’s not manufacturers losing the plot. It’s euroregulators making a system that produces overweight garbage.
thejetssuckbigtime@reddit
Cool so instead of hybrids you get EVs only. Happy now?
nafnaf0@reddit
5,225 lbs, zero interest in the that. My 2023 BMW X5 PHEV weighs 5,500lbs. It weighs so much it has cracked my driveway to pieces and I have to get it redone. How did they make a sedan weight that much. Very disappointing
SF-cycling-account@reddit
Side note but that exhaust is horrible. Too close together and far too large of openings
dorkis690@reddit
Are those the exhaust tips from the 911s with the sport exhaust? Those look very similar
Drzhivago138@reddit
I wonder if they're even functional. 2020 S6 Avant dummy exhaust
Quikstar@reddit
Oh my god this hurts so much to look at.
Imtherealwaffle@reddit
they are. you can see the actual exhaust inside the tips
arup02@reddit
I wonder what possible reason is there for them to do something like this? Because it's not like the exhaust isn't there.
VelikBatafuker@reddit
This was on the EU model which was a diesel. If I'm not mistaken models out of the EU had regular exhausts.
LuPorr@reddit
Audi's S badge logic is an absolute fever dream and vibes-based only. I guess even "clean" diesel produces soot which they don't want on the exhaust tips, hence they're fake.
The inconsistency is the wildest part though: S4 and S6: went from petrol to diesel S5: coupé and sportback went diesel, but the cabrio stayed petrol SQ5 and SQ7: went from diesel to petrol
Drzhivago138@reddit
Looks, mainly.
joeislandstranded@reddit
Some say that oversized exhaust openings are a social cue that the driver is a power bottom that can take a lot of D.
At least when it comes to those garbage can looking tips on diesel trucks. Not sure if this is true for sports cars and such
Drzhivago138@reddit
Never heard that one, but it would track with people immediately thinking about others' genitals.
exodus3252@reddit
Just wait until the rear fascia/exhaust are replaced by a digital screen mimicking an exhaust...
Electronic automotive dystopia.
darokk@reddit
They're fake tips integrated into the bumper, but the actual exhaust pipes do exit to them (they can be seen in some videos right behind the tips).
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
I think I remember reading somewhere a while back that Audi was going back to using real exhaust tips, rather than using those "dummy" ones. I could be wrong though.
Intel_Oil@reddit
I like it, looks like the Cayenne Turbo GT Exhaust
LeetcodeForBreakfast@reddit
makes the car look AI generated with how ridiculous it looks lol
GtrplayerII@reddit
The dual large oval exhausts tips have always been the design cue of the RS cars. From the RS3 right up to the RS7. There not new to this generation.
Much like the S cars have the quad oval tips.
These are slightly closer together than past generations.
angustifolio@reddit
can already imagine articles written how owners of this car are going to have issues with ~~bananas~~ neighborhood cats in the tailpipe
eric_gm@reddit
2.5 ton cars is the new normal. The new BMW 5 Series was only the beginning
It's a sad state of affairs but as long as manufacturers are pushed towards hybridization, it is what it is.
chriscrossls@reddit
You can get a Corolla Hybrid that weighs 2850 pounds today. Pinning it on hybridization I think is a misstep.
OrionGrant@reddit
If you tip 3.5 tonne by adding 4 adults, can this be driven on a normal license in the UK?
gimpwiz@reddit
The hybrid weighs 100lb less than the gasser, for the same corolla? How's that work?
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
I had to google that because that's an excellent question. The answer was because the hybrid has a smaller 1.8L engine vs. 2L engine, the lighter eCVT transmission vs. traditional CVT, and no spare tire. All of that leads to less weight even though the lithium ion hybrid battery itself adds weight.
strongmanass@reddit
The Corolla Hybrid isn't a 700 horsepower V8 PHEV designed to give owners brrrap-brrrap while also allowing them inside ULEZ zones.
chriscrossls@reddit
Yeah I think that's where the weight comes in. People are acting like this car was made in a vacuum when in reality as you said it's pretty clear to me it's a way for the rich people living in downtown London a way to own a sports sedan while not getting dinged every time they drive it.
Quertior@reddit
Meh, I’d say “well off” is a better description of their target market than “wealthy” (especially considering that it’s an Audi and not like a Bentley or Lambo or something).
The truly wealthy people don’t care about fines and will do whatever they want. Remember how Steve Jobs never put license plates on his car?
chriscrossls@reddit
The average Subaru buyer makes $90k a year. In 2019, the average Porsche household made $500k, and that was before this recent crazy inflation. The income and age of the average new car buyer is staggering.
Quertior@reddit
Okay, I'll admit that's higher than I was expecting.
I personally tend to define "wealthy" as a stratum even higher than that (like, they don't drive themselves at all because they get chauffeured around in an S-class and flown around in a private jet), but ultimately that's just semantics, and I do agree with your main original point.
Skensis@reddit
The fact that the M5 is cheaper than the M3 in some countries is a sign that these hybrid systems are being used to keep these cars more affordable and not exclusive to the ultra rich.
akvarista11@reddit
I think you got it wrong. The M3 costs more than the M5 in places like the Netherlands because of their backwards emissions requirements and it has a hefty tax on top of that as well. It’s not that the m5 is cheap there, but that the m3 is insanely overpriced
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Look at Porsche. They made a 911 with a hybrid system that reduces emissions and adds less weight than the driver
The point he was making is that you can make a car a hybrid without ballooning the weight
strongmanass@reddit
They also make the Panamera e-hybrid which is the same setup, size, and weight as the M5.
Yes, that's the serious version of "brrrap brrrap but still go in ULEZ."
pridetwo@reddit
Corvette E Ray
strongmanass@reddit
The Corvette E-Ray is not an executive luxury sedan.
justin_memer@reddit
What does the Z in ULEZ stand for?
strongmanass@reddit
Zone. So saying "ULEZ zone" is like "ATM machine" but it's not a common acronym yet so I repeated "zone" anyway.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
You can definitely make a hybrid not weigh too much like the Corolla, but the Corolla is set out to be very different kind of vehicle than a high performance luxury car. The 2025 RS5 was already over 2 tons, and it was just a twin turbo V6 without any hybridization, so it's not like making the new one a regular hybrid as opposed to a plug-in hybrid was going make it "light". Not to mention, the Corolla is a smaller vehicle than the A5/S5/RS5.
chriscrossls@reddit
Sure, but my point is that inherently making something a hybrid doesn't have to balloon its weight. They made decisions to increase its weight.
eric_gm@reddit
To be clear im not saying “hybrid bad”. Don’t put words in my mouth I didn’t say.
All I’m saying, as the other commenter pointed out, is that in already heavy cars like German mid-size luxury sedans, adding a battery pack, motor and associated hardware will push weights from just under 2 tons to 2.5 or more.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Agreed. The new 911 GTS hybrid is an example of that, as it weighs just 100 pounds more than the non-hybrid GTS.
I hear you. It's just that using the Corolla, while a completely valid point, isn't the best use of a counterpoint for the reason I listed above.
Puzzleheaded-Bit6292@reddit
The 911 non-hybrid is already a sportscar, that means:
Having a stronger thus heavier bodywork and chassis to handle the horsepower.
More and more enhanced safety requirements.
Extensive luxury/confort features.
Of course the Corolla gets improved each year, but definitely not as much as your typical ‘luxury’ sportscar like a 911GTS, Audi RS5 or BMW M5
3rdreprieve@reddit
It’s plug-in hybridization. Regular hybrids don’t have these obscenely large battery packs. You can make electrified sports cars and sports sedans weigh less than actual pickup trucks by omitting the “plug-in” part.
The Corvette E-Ray proves that, the Infiniti Q50 Hybrid proved that, and the RLX Sport Hybrid proved that. All cars listed are, at minimum, 800 pounds lighter than the RS5. That’s particularly impressive due to the fact that the RLX was two full size classes up in size from the RS5.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
The RLX was a midsize sedan. The new A5/S5/RS5 isn't a subcompact.
3rdreprieve@reddit
I was under the impression that the RLX was a full-sized car. I guess it wasn’t.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Ahh, I see. Yeah, I can understand how one would think that, as it was quite large on the outside. More or less the same size as the last Toyota Avalon...which was also technically classified as a midsize sedan...albeit just on the cusp of fullsize.
desf15@reddit
Problem is that, as long as we have WLTP testing cycle, making car a plug-in allows for much lower emissions in tests, thus lower taxes in many markets. 140HP Corolla has marginally higher CO2 output than 727HP M5 in WLTP test cycle. This is why they have big batteries.
El_mochilero@reddit
Tire manufacturers are probably salivating at the thought of 4,500lb cars wearing out performance tires. In 15,000 miles.
eric_gm@reddit
My wife has a Volvo XC40 Recharge. That thing is EV-only but weights well past 2 tons. It eats tires like there’s no tomorrow.
gimpwiz@reddit
They used to sell us 14" tires, 185 section width, 540 tread wear. Now they get to sell is 22" tires, 265 section width, 320 tread wear, which also wear twice as fast on an EV if you give it pep off every light. You bet they're happy.
bush_killed_epstein@reddit
As someone who drives a 2nd gen Honda fit sport weighing 2700lbs (highly recommend this btw), I hate this trend of >2 ton cars on the road. I also live in a city with notoriously terrible drivers. And I tell ya, when a ram cuts me off at 60mph, I feel my soul leaving my body for a second
rhinoscopy_killer@reddit
Your car is even lighter than that, I think. Between 2490 and 2615 lb, no?
withoutapaddle@reddit
There are exactly 3 types of cars on the road who I will NEVER give the benefit of the doubt to (eg assume they made a mistake, or let them go first if there is doubt about who has right of way, or stop in a parking lot to let them back out of a spot).
RAMs, because every single one I know is an egomaniac and/or drives drunk, and I just cannot respect that shit.
GMs that use their backup lights as "convenience lights" when there isn't even anyone in the fucking car at all.
Tesla owners who clearly bought their car AFTER the CEO openly started destroying my country's democracy.
I consider myself pretty open minded and progressive, but judging people based on their car choices is as close as I come to being illogically prejudiced against any group of people. It's a huge amount of money, and who you give it to matters.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Jesus take the wheel
woofyyyyyy@reddit
Yikes. I’ll stick to my old 20 year old death traps 🤓
GolfGodsAreReal@reddit
The F-150 is aluminum
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Kinda crazy that Ford figured out how to effectively use aluminum in a pickup truck before Audi figured out how to use it in a performance track sedan
doabarrelroll69@reddit
Which is even stranger when you consider that Audi pioneered aluminum monocoque road cars with the A8.
colonial_dan@reddit
Not trying to argue with you, I’m just curious: was the A8 first? I always thought the Jaguar XJ did it first.
withoutapaddle@reddit
For decades, I've been disappointed by how few cars have aluminum panels. I keep my cars a long time, and knowing they aren't going to look like a rusty mess when they are 10+ years old is a significant factor for me (I live somewhere with lots of winter and salted roads). That's probably 40% of the reason I picked an F-150 for a tow vehicle.
jdore8@reddit
I'm also in the rust belt. Ford's aluminum hasn't aged well in many of their other vehicles. Looking at Expedition tailgates & recently 10 year old Lincoln MKZ hoods.
withoutapaddle@reddit
That's surprising. All my cars with aluminum panels have stayed in good shape, sometimes for 30+ years. The aluminum F-150 is over a decade old now, and I've never seen a single one with body issues. But go 1 year older and I see noticeable rust on them not uncommonly when I spot them on the road.
gdnws@reddit
Then how about a less flattering comparison; if the numbers in this document are correct, the rs5 avant weighs a little more than a 2024 ram 1500 tradesman with the 5.7 hemi non etorque 4x4 with a 6'4" box at 5164 pounds to the rs5's 5225. The etorque version is slightly heavier at 5242. This is despite a mostly steel body construction and an iron engine block.
Drzhivago138@reddit
You'd think they'd use the curb weight of an F-150 with the 2.7 V6 since it's both 50ish lbs. lighter and more popular than the V8.
Truck-Adventurous@reddit
Yeah, but then you can't turn it into a Mexican GTR..
Drzhivago138@reddit
Wouldn't those start off as a regular cab typically? Those are a bit over 4300 now.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
RCSB, 4x4, Coyote
Drzhivago138@reddit
As Joni Mitchell said, "No regrets, Coyote."
rehpotsirhc123@reddit
You'd want to use the heavier truck to compare because it makes the sedans look even worse.
T-Baaller@reddit
that even with the meme-8 it's lighter is probably more dramatic effect than 150 vs 200 lbs or whatever the delta is (I don't click links).
J50GT@reddit
The body panels are aluminum. The RS5 uses plenty of aluminum too.
humjaba@reddit
My 2018 f150 super cab with the 2.7 weighed 4400lbs. An f150 is basically a big empty aluminum box. There are a lot of cars heavier than that these days.
GrantLikesSunChips@reddit
No point in these. Perfect 2 car garage is self driving Tesla and manual Miata. Combined cheaper than one of these and combined they’re better
khuzemao7@reddit
Looks cool
humdizzle@reddit
M3 really has no competition now. we all thought it was a whale at 3900 pounds, but compared to this and the c63 its a lightweight
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
The CT4-V Blackwing still exists...for now.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
Blackwings aren't sold in europe though. They dont meet eu emissions.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Ok. But they're sold in North America. So therefore, it's competition to the M3 here.
thekhaos@reddit
0 desirability though. An old Giulia QF is more compelling for non-Americans.
Salt-Plankton436@reddit
Cadillac is the best on the market atm for me. The BMW might have won if it didn't look like a pig that has been hit in the face by a train.
thekhaos@reddit
Cadillac looks uglier IMO. Especially the CT4
Salt-Plankton436@reddit
Its not as nice as the older Caddies but its not as bad as the M4 which challenges the Fiat Multipla for the title of ugliest car of the 21st century.
thekhaos@reddit
Calling the M4 ugly is a tired take. I’m not going to pretend it’s a beauty (and was definitely a factor why I went for my car) but it does look striking and with some minor mods, looks pretty good.
The CS/CSL spec cars look brutal in a good way.
speedwaystout@reddit
More likely the reason is that it’s economically viable in the eu
element515@reddit
Exists but isn't even being updated anymore. I wish it got a refresh like the ct5 did
humdizzle@reddit
kinda. its priced like a m340, worse engine than the b58 or s58, and meh interior. But i agree on pure driving feel and inputs its better than the m3.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Fair points. I just like that Cadillac makes a competitor for that segment, even if it’s not as good in certain areas.
mgobla@reddit
Alfa Giulia QF is significantly lighter than M3
humdizzle@reddit
car and driver has the 2024 guilia quad at 3808... for apples to apples it would be comparable to a comp m3 rwd, which is 3820. Where are you getting your info? dry weights from alfa?
BWFTW@reddit
Italians do love their dry weight and saying it's kerb weight. Not saying alfa did that, but very common for ferrari and lambo
AutoModerator@reddit
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3rdreprieve@reddit
There is absolutely no reason that a sports sedan the size of a Honda Civic should weigh more than most mid-sized SUVs.
Drzhivago138@reddit
For one thing, this is bigger than a Civic in every dimension.
cabs84@reddit
if it's the same size as the current S5, they're pretty close... (and even that one is half a ton heavier)
https://www.carsized.com/en-us/cars/compare/honda-civic-2021-sedan-vs-audi-a5-2024-liftback/
Drzhivago138@reddit
I'm pretty sure the Civic is only 1.8m wide without mirrors. Dunno where they're getting the 1.89 figure.
3rdreprieve@reddit
My point was that this is ostensibly a compact car.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Ostensibly, but "compact executive" cars are typically closer in size to entry level mid-sizers.
JC-Dude@reddit
It’s basically the same length as an F10 5 series.
3rdreprieve@reddit
You’re joking, right? New cars have gotten bigger, but there’s no way a mid-sized car from 10 years ago is smaller than a brand new compact car.
JC-Dude@reddit
New RS5 is 4896mm long, the F10 was 4899mm long.
3rdreprieve@reddit
Jesus
snollygoster1@reddit
It has a big battery in it, those have to weigh something.
Jlx_27@reddit
Plug in hybrid will do that. Remove all of it and it weighs 450 kg less.
cabs84@reddit
the exhaust just looks stupid
Life_is_a_Taco@reddit
I get it’s heavy, but I desperately want a performance car with EV only use to pull out of my neighborhood quietly and I’m willing to make trade offs for it.
KSoMA@reddit
I wonder how much most manufacturers could squeeze out of a standard hybrid. I think Chevy rates the Corvette E-Ray's pure electric range at 4-5 miles, which isn't much at all but certainly would be enough to get you out of whatever residential area you're in.
icecream_specialist@reddit
All these cars come with dynamic exhaust, typically tied to drive modes. You can leave your neighborhood in quiet mode and sensible application of throttle
Skensis@reddit
Yeah like my M2 isn't crazy loud with the flaps open, closed it's damn pedestrian.
Life_is_a_Taco@reddit
I’ve had a performance Audi before, I get it, but this is not a replacement for EV mode.
gaius49@reddit
An active or dual mode exhaust will already pull into a neighborhood in the middle of the night without bothering anyone. My GT350 did that just fine with its stock dual mode exhaust.
tonytwocans@reddit
They made the battery really big and heavy so people can daily drive the car with just electric power. Sounds ok on paper but then studies show that only a tiny percentage of PHEV's ever plug their cars in.
moltenice09@reddit
I think the % of people owning this car and plugging them in will be much higher than the average. They can afford it (garage and L2 charger) and they have the incentive of the increased power.
Also a lot of that low usage statistics includes fleet cars given to employees who might not have the facilities nor the incentive (company pays for everything, so why bother plugging in every day).
KSoMA@reddit
The situation in Germany is so funny. Most people with luxury cars have them paid for (at least in large part) by their employer on a lease. They buy PHEVs because you pay half of annual vehicle taxes in that case, but their employers only reimburse them for gas usage, not electricity, so a very significant portion of drivers there genuinely will never charge their cars.
Salmon_pervert@reddit
So what, it will still sell, and people only care about 0-100 times, doesn't matter what happens if you need to suddenly steer around something at a speed
Also, it seems like new heavy cars have good speed around tracks, and good 100-0 stopping distance. So maybe weight doesn't really matter anyway at this point, idk
RicardoMoyer@reddit
second paragraph of ur comment really sums it up
like is anyone in r/cars really gonna pretend an RS5 can’t turn? really? audi has some of the best suspension geometry in the game, i bet this thing will break a record or two at the ring as it is usual whenever a new german car comes out
ow_windowmaker@reddit
🤡🤡
KSoMA@reddit
Idk about the best overall, but the amount of suspension wizardry Audi has done to make their cars with the engine entirely ahead of the front axle not drive like crap on a track shouldn't be overlooked at all.
Khal_Kitty@reddit
Yeah buyers of these cars don’t care if there’s other cars nimbler. They just care if it’s nimble enough and that factor is below horsepower, style, and prestige.
jalopaf2@reddit
I mean it does matter to turn in and steering feel but everything is EPS and running silly fat tires so steering feel was doomed anyway. I'm sure transitions suffer too but doesn't seem like people care enough for manufacturers to keep weight down
Salt-Plankton436@reddit
Audi really is dead as a brand. I think the only decent cars left are RS6 if is Still available and RS3. R8 is gone, TT is gone i think, most S and RS models are shit now, they're all generic and bland with cheap nasty interiors. I keep wondering what BMW is smoking and then Audi said "hold my 43" dashboard TV"....
mgobla@reddit
Bc of EU law. The HEAVIER the fleet average vehicle weight, the LESS money a manufacturer has to pay to EU. The LIGHTER the fleet average weight, the MORE money a manufacturer has to pay to EU. Extremely heavy models like this RAISE the fleet average weight, so the manufacturer saves many millions $ / € , has to pay much LESS to EU bc their fleet got HEAVIER.
No-Rich-9237@reddit
The system doesn’t penalise weight, it penalises emissions. Weight is just a factor in the target formula.
mgobla@reddit
Your lies change nothing. Both emissions and weight are a factor. That doesn't change anything about weight being a factor, it doesn't change anything about what I wrote about fleet weight. Also it's much easier and cheaper to make a car heavier than to reduce emissions. Also if two cars have the SAME emissions only the weight decides how much the manufcaturer has to pay. ALL EVs have zero emissions on paper, no matter how much energy they use, so the heavier the less they have to pay, the lighter the more they have to pay. It's similar for PHEVs bc of the unrealistic way their emissions get measured.
No-Rich-9237@reddit
The rules don’t care how heavy your car is — they care how much CO₂ it emits. Weight only tweaks your target, it doesn’t decide fines. If a manufacturer’s average CO₂ is above its target, they pay €95 per g/km per car — no magic bonus for heavy EVs. EVs are zero-emission on paper, so they help compliance, but selling heavier EV’s doesn’t cut penalties, it just shifts your target a bit. You’re twisting the facts. Go check the EU Commission yourself: https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-decarbonisation/road-transport/cars-and-vans_en
mgobla@reddit
How much they pay per gram Co2 completely depends on the weight. Nothing you say changes anything about reality. You are the one twisting the facts.
dfsaqwe@reddit
pay the EU for what?
mgobla@reddit
Downvotes and denial doesn't change facts.
KeepersDiary@reddit
Laughs in RX7.
Phill_is_Legend@reddit
And it's going to be indistinguishable from an RS6 to all but the enthusiasts...
CortaCircuit@reddit
That passenger screen is so fucking stupid...
ajrf92@reddit
Give thanks to the absurd EU laws regarding emissions.
Exhausted_but_upbeat@reddit
There is an incentive to make cars huge and heavy: in the USA, the cost of work vehicles over 6,000lbs can be written off in one year.
So, a person can buy a giant land boat (the RS5 is too light, sadly, but some Range Rovers qualify) and, as a private contractor or consultant, declare it is their work vehicle. Boom, full tax write off of a high-end and extremely expensive luxury vehicle.
MrMilanista@reddit
lmaooooooo, garbage
LuciusFormadeus@reddit
I'm a bit late to the news. I wonder how Audi would mask the 5 ton weight with chassis, tech, and brakes. This car needs some space-age brakes.
DeeYumTofu@reddit
The front looks like a silhouette of Batman’s helmet.
start3ch@reddit
To be fair the F150 switched to an aluminum body to save ~700lbs of weight. The base F150 weighs the same as a Tacoma
ubercruise@reddit
I always liked the Audi exhaust pipe differentiation. A/Q models got one-side exhaust or dual exhaust with single pipes. S models got the quad pipes, and RS got the large ovals.
But this is just garish, it’s like a caricature of an RS model. I was an Audi fanboy for a good while (still am in some capacity) but man have their latest designs not been very thrilling
MetaTrombonist@reddit
Plus it has a tiny bed I bet it can't even tow as much either.
schmeckmaster2000@reddit
I think we all agree the RS6 makes for a terrible truck.
trackdaybruh@reddit
Not with that attitude it isn’t
acEightyThrees@reddit
And I thought my RS6 was heavy. I love my car, and it's fun to drive. But even though I have the DRC suspension, I can definitely feel the weight. This is even heavier. The new RS6 is going to be 6000 lbs.
rdklz@reddit
Yay let's jam more crap into cars that'll likely break so we can sell more parts and more cars after the warranty period expires.
Local_Yak8596@reddit
Wow.
FloopyBoopers2023@reddit
FART!
noSSD4me@reddit
This is the case of "too many goods in one basket" especially since the basket is trying to be a top performer. Hybrids work best for your average mindless Joe who cares about best mpg, low maintenance cost, low price and longevity, which is why cars like Civic hybrid and Corolla hybrid are so popular. Because top speed, performance and handling are on the bottom of the list of priorities for those cars, they don't come out with such a monstrous weight because they don't need giant batteries. For cars like RS5, as someone else said go full gas or full electric, period. Leave hybrids for basic cheap commuters.
rolex_monkey_50@reddit
Audi is a spent force, they have no new technology, no new design language and they just drive like they are from 2008. Why people buy them still, is beyond me.
Dr__Nick@reddit
Aren’t they in big trouble compared to the other two luxury Germans?
ZenXw@reddit
Shame, because out of all the new performance cars coming out from the Germans, this is easily the best looking one.
VariationAgreeable29@reddit
CT-5 V Blackwing is gonna smoke this thing
Mountain_Swan_149@reddit
Either go full EV or full gas.
Hybrids are the lamest vehicles on the planet.
I love EVs because of the instant torque, excellent handling dynamics, and superb torque vectoring - and close to zero cost of operation.
I love gas cars because they weigh less and the noise.
A hybrid makes all of those benefits NULL.
Avalon_Don@reddit
Damn… with as much shit as I talked about the M5 if I had the money I’d still get this. It just looks so damn good.
GimmeUrBusch@reddit
in before the Blackwing Boyz
mustangfan12@reddit
At least the M5 has a V8. Audi is really losing the plot, just a twin turbo V6 and it weights that much?
snollygoster1@reddit
Batteries weigh more than cylinders because a cylinder is mostly empty space whereas a battery is not. I know that people talk about chunky American cars, but the reason why a muscle car was often heavier than a tuner car is all factors outside of the engine like having a steel frame.
sioux612@reddit
This is a class under the m5 and only 150kg off its weight...wow
Purrchil@reddit
I like it a lot.
FancyManIAm@reddit
Look at this and the hybrid M5. They are fat and their horsepower numbers really don’t mean as much because of the weight. The problem is not being big; these cars are meant to be big. The problem is that they are meant to be nimble, precision engineered fun machines with German souls. Locking V8s behind heavy and boring PHEV infrastructure makes everyone miserable.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
The M5 is...but the A5/RS5, no matter the generation, isn't a big car.
Yes, the M5 has that powertrain. But the new RS5 isn't a V8.
BrinkinDourbon@reddit
Yay! My truck is lighter than that fatty 🤪
Animanganime@reddit
.2 faster than my wife’s EV to 60. Weights 1 ton more
fitnessCTanesthesia@reddit
Who cares. Same weight crap every generation. New m5 was a hit.
HawtGarbage918@reddit
"Somehow" = battery pack. It's not exactly a mystery.
KingMario05@reddit
The ugly truth of hybrids. And it's not even a friggin' V8. Make them lighter, car industry. Please.
TrueSwagformyBois@reddit
I’d rather have an RS3 or an RS6. But I’d have one. I don’t know that I’d spend the money on one. Could get an RS3 and a Miata RF or two CPO Boxster/ Cayman’s for that money.
threeinacorner@reddit
Hah, I knew it was going to be more than 2.3 tons.