Captain Jellico Was the Most Underrated Leader in Star Trek History
Posted by Ambitious_Local5218@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 129 comments
I’m going to say it. Captain Edward Jellico might be the most underrated man in Starfleet history.
Not because he was warm. Not because he gave speeches. Not because he built cozy emotional bonds with the crew.
But because he showed up to do the job he was assigned, and he did it correctly.
When Jellico takes command of the Enterprise in Chain of Command, the Federation is on the brink of war with the Cardassians. This is not a routine diplomatic cruise. This is a potential military flashpoint. Picard is gone. Tensions are high. The stakes are massive.
Jellico walks in and immediately starts making changes. Four shift rotation. Tactical readiness. Strict discipline. Clear expectations. No nonsense.
And the crew hates him for it.
Why
Because he disrupts comfort.
The Enterprise under Picard was brilliant, but it was also stable and familiar. Jellico comes in and says this is not a comfort cruise, this is a war scenario. We are not here to feel good. We are here to win.
He does not try to be everyone’s friend. He does not try to win a popularity contest. He is focused on mission success.
And here is the key point people gloss over. He was right.
He correctly reads the Cardassians. He negotiates from strength. He prepares the ship for conflict. He pushes for efficiency under pressure. Even relieving Riker is not emotional or petty. It is operational. If your first officer is not aligned with your command style in a crisis scenario, you replace him. That is leadership.
People frame him as abrasive or rigid. But in a potential wartime situation, those traits are not flaws. They are assets.
We are so used to romanticizing inspirational leadership that we forget there is another kind. The kind that prioritizes results over feelings. The kind that understands that success sometimes requires friction.
Jellico did not fail. He succeeded at the job he was given. The only thing he failed at was making everyone comfortable.
For that specific moment in Federation history, he might have been the exact captain the Enterprise needed.
Curious to hear other takes. Is Jellico misunderstood, or am I overcorrecting here
dfackler77@reddit
Jellico was intentionally made to look bad through the editing and dramatic music, and unfortunately 90% of people won't be able to overcome that to see that, objectively, he was a great captain.
He adeptly handled the resistant elements within his command officers. With Troi, he shifted the focus from his psychological fitness to her duties and dress obligations. With Riker, he relieved him of duty, which was totally correct given his outrageous insubordination.
Ambitious_Local5218@reddit (OP)
He was the best captain we've ever seen.
twinoaksBandB@reddit
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IkkeKr@reddit
What evidence do we have that his changes actually do improve efficiency? Especially at such short notice?
Most of the time even beneficial operational changes initially decrease efficiency until the gaps in the theory get identified and filled and everybody settles in.
TAOJeff@reddit
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I recall him making the crew repeatedly run through a teaining scenario until they were doing it within a specified time, which they originally though was silly. He also has engineering tweaking the warp core for better output, which I recall La Forge saying couldn't be done but then manages it.
So they gained some efficiencies, might not be what you were talking about, but achieve those, the crew had to improve their teamwork and showed themselves that their limits weren't where they thought they were.
The person in the episode who is being a massive arse, is Riker. First time I watched it I was on his side, upon reflection though, he's throws a tantrum as soon as he finds out they're not going to immediately start a war over Picard and decides the best way to save his friend is sulking in his room. Jellico, despite everything that Riker did, goes and begs him to return to his job, because he's the best at (IIRC) flying a shuttle, and wants him in the pilot chair as it gives the best chance for the mission to be successful.
toastedclown@reddit
He's not saying it can't be done. He is saying he doesn't want to do it because it can't be done without tradeoffs he doesn't think are worth it. He doesn't want to wear out his team working them around the clock tweaking something he thinks is working just fine in order to get ready for battle if it means they won't have any juice left for, you know, the actual battle.
IkkeKr@reddit
He's rescheduling readiness drills because the response time was off by a few seconds. Similarly, LaForge didn't say it couldn't be done, but that it requires dropping everything else and his whole department doing 24/7 duties while he is well within Starfleet requirements - they're both considered "optimization" just for the sake of it, without any real effect by the department heads.
And that ties in with Riker's reaction: nobody has a clue what or why the new Captain wants, and Riker can't function in a "just do as I tell you" environment (Picard earlier in the episode even tells Jellico that's why he wanted Riker). He throws a tantrum because, after repeated slights, Jellico seemingly treats Picard's capture as irrelevant and that's a hill he's willing to die on. And gets relieved in response.
It's also true that Jellico comes around, but only after being told to do so by Troi and LaForge and after he's finally starting to include his staff in his strategy ... He doesn't come to Riker as "I need you to pilot this shuttle", but with "We've got this plan and you're the best pilot to execute it". One demands compliance, the other requests cooperation, which he would have gotten instead of all the pushback had he acted more like that from the start.
Futuressobright@reddit
I think the most persausive evidence is that the managers complaining about the changes have no arguments to present about how the changes aren't helpful-- only that they are tough to impliment on schedule.
Granted, it may be that changing all the duty rosters didn't actually imprive the efficency of the mission much (or at all) in the short term, but my reading of the episdoe is that that Jellico wasn't meant to be there for the short term. Picard was sent on a Hail Mary mission that was expected to fail (the payoff if he succeeded was just too vital to pass up), and Jellico was supposed to be his replacement. The only reason Picard came back is that Jellico was so good at his job that he ended up saving him as a bonus on top of what he was meant to do.
It's easy to imagine the department heads spinning their "now isn't a good time" line out indefinately. When isn't the Enterprise dealing with a crisis? Jellico knew at some point he would have to ruffle some feathers if the changes he wanted were ever going to get done, so he demanded it right away.
Tacitus111@reddit
I disagree. The 4 shift rotation had nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with Jellico’s personal preference. It was absolutely also not the time to implement it immediately before what he expected to be a war and discombobulate his crew’s schedule going into battle.
Jellico, also ordered, per the chief engineer’s assessment, completely unnecessary maintenance of the warp systems, issued an entirely arbitrary deadline on said maintenance that even Data said was just barely possible to fulfill, and had the Engineering team (a third of which had already been assigned by Jellico to Security) work around the clock to complete this unnecessary task.
Nothing like a numerically depleted Engineering team who’s also just been worked to the bone for no good reason to be on hand to repair your ship in battle conditions.
It really baffles me when people call Jellico some kind of practical leader. He wastes his people, prioritizes his own convenience with the 4 shift change (he’s used to it and no one else is), and in general is the type of manager who makes his subordinates feel pain to “show them who’s boss”. Are there managers out there, military and otherwise, who do that? Absolutely. But they’re managers, not leaders.
WinTraditional8156@reddit
This was my thought... the same amount of readiness could be achieved without the rotation schedule changed... I get drills, and Riker grounded for the weekend... but the rotation seemed petty ... as well as the fish
Gry_lion@reddit
The fish request was added because of Patrick Stewart.
WinTraditional8156@reddit
Yes, but in character it was petty
IkkeKr@reddit
It's not like Jellico gives them any time to present those arguments...
I always thought the whole thing was an intelligence operation... Picard was a front-sector commander who needed to be sent behind enemy lines because of his expertise (which is a stretch... but ok, let's accept that). Since there's a decent chance of him being captured, as happens, you need to protect your defensive posture. Similar to Best of Both Worlds... you need someone who's very much not Picard in charge, so that any intelligence gathered from Picard would be outdated, and present that convincingly.
So Starfleet went looking for a Captain with the record to be a convincing replacement and very much his own personality - then reinforces the whole thing by doing all the change-of-command bells and whistles and leaving the Enterprise senior staff in the dark. Guaranteed that the Obsidian Order picks up some rumours.
Smooth-Climate8008@reddit
It isn’t about “efficiency” as such. It’s about changing the mission profile from exploration to combat
Smooth-Climate8008@reddit
You could very easily make the case that the Enterprise is the wrong ship for this mission, but then you don’t have enough story for a two-parter, do you?
Chomblop@reddit
Now that we’ve heard from Chat GPT, let’s hear what Claude has to say
CaptainMajorMustard@reddit
Chat GPT has such a distinctive voice! I got it by sentence 3.
Rotdawg@reddit
Fair points, but senator Robert Kinsey can still go fuck himself.
Tichondruis@reddit
If the episodes gave es any evidence his strict leadership style and blunt implantation actually made the crew more ready for battle and I don't feel the episodes ever display that.
ugh_my_@reddit
Picard could have warned Riker more appropriately instead of leaving him in the dark, such as instead of just standing there staring blankly when Jellico demanded the delta shift.
Bargain-Hunter-1980@reddit
What was the aim/benefit of the four shifts that implemented, from a battle-readiness perspective?
greatteachermichael@reddit
I've never been in the military, but from what my military friends have said you work harder but also rest more. In a combat situation you can bring everyone into combat easier. Someone can probably explain it better than I if they see this or explain if I am wrong
Bargain-Hunter-1980@reddit
Good enough explanation for me chief, thank you!
Flimsy-Blackberry-67@reddit
But the issue Riker pointed out is that the department heads felt they wouldn't have enough staff to cover all the duties in a 4 shift, here's the transcript:
JELLICO: I believe we're scheduled to arrive at the Cardassian border during delta shift. Please inform the delta tactical officer that I want to launch a class five probe just before we drop out of warp.
RIKER: I was actually going to talk to you about delta shift a little later, sir. Right now, gamma shift will be on duty when we arrive and I will tell Lieutenant McDowell about the probe.
JELLICO: Is there a problem with delta shift, Will?
RIKER: There is no delta shift yet, sir. I have spoken to the department heads about changing from three shifts to four, and they assure me it's going to cause us significant personnel problems.
JELLICO: So you have not changed the watch rotation.
RIKER: I was going to explain this to you after the ceremony, sir.
JELLICO: You will tell the department heads that as of now the Enterprise is on a four shift rotation. I don't want to talk about it. Get it done. Now that means delta shift will be due to come on duty in two hours. I expect you to have it fully manned and ready when it does. Is that clear?
You can't instantly go from 3 shifts to 4 in a matter of 2 hours without significant disruption, and it also means you would have 1/4 fewer staff working on all shifts. With a crew complement around 1,000, instead of having 333ish per shift you have 250ish. Are all 83 of those roles non-essential? Surely some are, and surely some people have a mix of essential and non-essential tasks that could be adjusted, but that would take a lot of time and planning, I don't think you can do it well in 2 hours.
If the purpose is tactical readiness and working everyone hard when on shift but giving them more rest, cramming in these changes in 2 hours would be chaos and lead to overwork, defeating the purpose.
A major schedule change like this would need to be planned for and implemented carefully not pushed through last minute.
Yes, had Riker started working on those changes the second Jellico told him to, he would have to rush to reschedule everyone in only 2 hours, but it still seems like he was only given a day's notice about this, and during that time Riker clearly consulted with the department heads about it - maybe he even sent the orders to make the change and then got pushback from the heads.
At the very least, a reasonable person would be upset Riker hadn't followed in a timely fashion but acknowledged ramming it through in 2 hours would be messy and delay it until tomorrow - 1,000 people need to be told their new shift times and managers need to make new schedules to ensure coverage, etc - not force it asap anyway.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Depends on what kind of four-shift rotation they're going with. You have a few options:
A: Four six-hour shifts, everyone works every day or they work out some internal break schedule, personnel permitting.
B: Two 12-hour shifts, A/B on, C/D off for a couple of days, then C/D work and A/B are off for a couple of days, etc.
There are some more obscure versions of a four-shift rotation (I once worked one with eight-hour shifts where A/B/C rotated between swings and mids while D was a dedicated day shift), but those two above are the most common. I've seen B more common than A, with my shift being work Monday-Tuesday, off Wednesday-Thursday, work Friday-Sunday, off Monday-Tuesday, work Wednesday-Thursday, off Friday-Sunday. At some point you swap hours with the other shift (you were on days and they were on mids, now they're on days and you're on mids) to keep it fair, and I've seen that swap anywhere from doing it every two weeks (which sucked) to doing it around college semester schedules.
I've also seen dedicated 3-on, 3-off shift schedules for 12 hours, too, but that wasn't as common as the one I've just mentioned.
scotus_canadensis@reddit
I worked 3-on/3-off for a while. It was surprisingly hellish.
Flimsy-Blackberry-67@reddit
In the transcript I posted above, Jellico specifically mentions how Delta shift should be on duty when ((something happens)), and Riker says Delta shift doesn't exist yet and it will be Gamma shift who will be on duty. So I think Jellico was basically expecting four shifts a day, 6 hours each.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Could be, the fact is we aren't given enough information to know either way.
Mrs_Evryshot@reddit
As someone who used to be in charge of scheduling at a large retailer, this scene gives me a stomach ache every time. You really can’t change your whole scheduling process in 2 hours. 2 weeks would be more realistic.
Flimsy-Blackberry-67@reddit
Yeah I had similar experience when we decided to extend our operating hours and open an hour earlier and so all the full-timers had to start a half hour earlier which then led to us having to radically change how we scheduled part-timers so that we didn't have weird 30 minute gaps in the mornings and evenings...
Two weeks was the minimum just because of us requiring to give unionized staff 2 weeks' notice to change their schedules as well as us having to have a formal sit-down with the team with a union rep present when we radically changed the entire team's schedules...
Informal-Business308@reddit
Worse, since we don't know how many out of the thousand people onboard are civilians. Even if it's 100-200 people, that's a massive dent in available personnel. Jellico seems like an incompetent micro-manager, and takes out his frustrations on his subordinates. He might get away with it on a second-rate command like the Cairo, but is unsuitable for the flagship.
Petrostar@reddit
"personnel problems" can mean alot of different things and doesn't necessarily not enough people.
The problem of having to man the shift in 2 hours was created by Riker. He was given an order to execute, and instead of carrying out those orders he decide to carry on with the three shift rotation.
He could have consulted Jellico, he's wearing a freakin' com badge right on his chest. Instead he ignored Jellico's orders AND kept him in the dark about it.
Bargain-Hunter-1980@reddit
Not sure why you got downvoted for expressing an opinion, I’ve given you a supportive up vote as it’s good to hear different takes. Reddit is a funny old place.
Smooth-Climate8008@reddit
I think what’s happening here is that it’s less of a four-shift rotation and more of a two shift rotation. 6 hours on duty, 6 hours off, repeating, instead of a more “normal” 8 on duty, 8 off duty, 8 for rest.
That would get more people at their stations during duty shifts, but runs a risk of running people ragged. It also means that the crew no longer has time for hobbies and off-mission creative pursuits.
Standsaboxer@reddit
Counterpoint: Jellico did everything wrong.
You argue that Jellico disrupted comfort, but that was the operating plan of the Enterprise: a ship designed to hold entire families. A ship whose primary function was exploration and diplomacy and just happened to be incredibly well armed for defense. Battle is the last resort for the Galaxy class and (supposedly) Star fleet.
So Jellico takes command of a ship populated with entire families and community schools and is confused because the ship isn’t run like a battle ship. Shift rotations are likely built around the idea of supporting families but Jellico seemingly ignores this and demands a significant change to crew rotations.
Jellico this commits a cardinal sin by blatantly ignoring the advice of his senior officers who supervise and work alongside the crew and instead listens only to Data, who inadvertently becomes a yes-man.
Jellico is repeatedly shown to also not inform his crew what his plans or strategy is, instead blindsiding Riker and Troi during the negotiation sessions, the very people there to help him.
So Jellico comes aboard a ship ostensibly not designed for war and gets mad that it’s not run with military precision. He only listens to people who say what he wants to hear, and gets in the way of the very crew who is trying to support him.
JugOfVoodoo@reddit
My headcanon is that leaving the Enterprise Jellico spent years trying to headhunt Data for his own staff.
We know from Prodigy that Jellico became an admiral. I imagine that with every promotion along the way he would send Data a job offer, adding more perks and bonuses each time. And each time Data politely refused. He might not have even told his friends about it.
Then after the events of Nemesis Jellico privately poured one out for Data, saluting a fine officer and cursing the hold that Picard had on him.
mochichinchin@reddit
Tell me you dont know how the military works with out telling me. If he wanted DATA ..he would just send orders to have him re assigned. He is an admiral and has the power. Ibeen posted to places thay I didnt like but orders are orders. I had no choice...
Andarial2016@reddit
It's incredible someone can have such an incorrect read on the episode and be so upvoted.
Why do you think starfleet sent him there, and sent the enterprise into a potential war zone?
It was not out of respect for the families.
Reddit is such a toxic echo chamber they'd rather wilfully misinterpret the episode to be contrarian
Standsaboxer@reddit
What do you mean by the incorrect read? It’s merely a different perspective of the situation.
Andarial2016@reddit
It's intentionally ignoring the trappings of the story to find issue with a father figure lmao
Standsaboxer@reddit
It really doesn’t but whatever.
_Nacktmull_@reddit
Don't waste your breath. You are arguing with vain people who think it makes them edgy and more cool then the average trekkie to like Jellico.
mike_complaining@reddit
Wow you take this very personally.
_Nacktmull_@reddit
This has been discussed over and over again a million times, still bringing it up again is just trolling.
mike_complaining@reddit
Did you know that a lot of people haven't discussed this a million times? And a lot of people who have are dead from cardiac arrest or whatever? I've never seen this before, but maybe it's because I'm not a cosplaying event-attending ancient of the trek community. I just enjoyed the shows privately for most of my life.
_Nacktmull_@reddit
Does nothing wrong with being new to social media/Reddit. This topic is an absolut classic in every online Star Trek community and pops up all the time, has been like this for years if not decades. The only topic that pops up more often is the question if Janeway was right when she decided to turn the teleporter accident called Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix.
kidney-displacer@reddit
Gotta love the hypocrisy in this comment
_Nacktmull_@reddit
Please point out the particular hypocrisy you are talking about.
kidney-displacer@reddit
Plus your edit is just chefs kiss delish
_Nacktmull_@reddit
Point out the hypocrisy or you officially agree there is none and you just talk bs...
kidney-displacer@reddit
Weird, you get to command what other people think? Fuckin hilarious.
Since you need it pointed out, that behavior is the exact same as the one youre complaining about, just a different flavor lmfao
_Nacktmull_@reddit
I give up, you will probably never understand.
Standsaboxer@reddit
I actually LOVE debating this episode. It’s a great episode and opens up real questions. It presents two sides of starfleet and asks which is more valid: the hawk or the dove?
In the end I think if they had an entire season to tell this story it would have been far better. A lot gets lost in the time crunch for run times.
This_Ad_8123@reddit
It would have been better over a season because it could have stretched the changes out over a longer period. The issue isn't the changes he made, it's that he made them over what, 2 days? "hey we're going into battle so I'm going to reassign my engineers to security, and then not let my engineers sleep. If we get into a ship to ship battle now this is a winning strategy for sure!". If he had a month to prep and pushed them hard at the start to get the ship into shape, sure it'd be fine, but he's causing disruption right before they're potentially going into battle.
Standsaboxer@reddit
He takes command of the ship and does nothing to rally the crew to his side. His de facto morale officer tells him that his crew, the very people he needs to be successful, are tense and stressed with the change, and instead of taking a. Plenty to connect with the troops, tells Troi he doesn’t have the time to baby them.
A lot gets lost because they had fewer than 90 minutes to tell a number of stories so so much nuance gets washed over, but I wish they had an opportunity to let Jellico show his other side. That wasn’t how you did 90s TV however so I get the compression.
GargamelLeNoir@reddit
I'm neutral on the Jellico question but honestly you're insufferable. People disagreeing with you doesn't make them edgelords.
If he was just written to be an idiot obviously the writers wouldn't have had his strategy with the Cardassians succeed so widely, let alone having him be the one to save Picard.
He's a nuanced character, not a hero or an insane asshole. You being so smug while having missed that makes it so much worse.
_Nacktmull_@reddit
Mimimi
Boetheus@reddit
Wanna see an edgelord? Look in the mirror
Ambitious_Local5218@reddit (OP)
It's not Jellicoe's fault that the Federation needs to have their head examined for putting families on starships.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
You're getting downvoted, but I agree with this take. Even as a kid when the show first aired, I thought this wasn't the best idea because of how many ships were lost in the original series. When the show first aired, the accepted lore of the day was that Starfleet adopted the Enterprise's symbol fleet-wide specifically because she was the only ship to return from her Five Year Mission (yeah, I know that's been retconned 30 years later). With the amount of space still to be explored and the dangers the Enterprise crew faced on a weekly basis, the idea of having the families of crewmembers present seemed like a really Bad Idea, even to my 9 year-old self.
Truth is they did that for the show because Gene wanted a kid on the bridge.
Ambitious_Local5218@reddit (OP)
If you're getting downvoted on Reddit, theres a really good chance that you're right on the money.
Most human beings are not bright. And they are extremely oblivious to that fact.
Perfect example right here. They think its a good idea to put kids on a starship when they face death every day.
Literally no rational minded person with any shred of sense would think this is in any way a good idea.
Standsaboxer@reddit
But it is Jellico’s responsibility to captain the she he has, not the ship he wants.
A lot of this comes down to the question is Starfleet a defensive organization with exploration as a side quest or is it an exploration organ of the federation that’s primed for defense?
Ohboyham@reddit
I would say in this instance it wasn’t about as much about his responsibility to the ship, but more about his responsibility to the mission. All of which he did with flying colors.
Standsaboxer@reddit
Which raises the question was giving Jellico command of the Enterprise necessary? Arguably he could have accomplished this same thing from the Cairo with the Enterprise at his back.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Needed to sell the idea that Picard wasn't in command anymore to Cardassian intelligence.
1776-2001@reddit
Kincoran@reddit
Agreed.
You know that brilliant quote from Picard...
...it almost feels like a bit of a joke on the writers part to have made this the exact inverse of that. As if Jean-luc had instead said
Fuzzy_Builder_2153@reddit
You make the point that Enterprise should be assigned to only LOVE BOAT missions in the Federation core and do anything dangerous.
Standsaboxer@reddit
I guess the question you have to ask is was the Galaxy class built for defensive purposes or exploration purposes? It’s logical to have capabilities for both, but given that it’s filled with families, it’s probably not a warship.
But an out-of-universe issue is that the story that these two episodes was trying to tell was far too large for a two-parter, and in the end everyone sort of looks bad because they didn’t have the chance to tell the story they needed.
jacobkosh@reddit
Nerds like to glaze Jellico because they think his presence indicates that the show validates their deeply-held belief that basic courtesy, consensus building, and teamwork are made-up, pointless, effeminate things and that real leadership is about macho dick-waving.
Jellico isn't a villain, but his role in the story is to be an obstacle for our main characters, the new boss who arbitrarily changes things to make sure people know he's serious. Anyone who's worked in an office has met this kind of guy.
He doesn't swoop in and solve everything with his magical power of being a pugnacious contrarian; he has useful expert knowledge of the specific subject at hand (Cardassians) but it's not enough - his ideas and plans fall short. He has to learn to work with the team, and they with him.
ThorsMeasuringTape@reddit
I would dispute your assertion of him as a leader. He's not a leader. He's a manager. There is a difference. And when you understand it, the whole episode takes on a different texture, in my opinion.
Plentimon@reddit
It always felt to me like that episode had writers with opposing ideas or someone changed their minds halfway through.
Because the obvious setup with the friction with the crew and Troi saying he's not as confident as he acts is that Jellico is going to go off the rails and the Enterprise crew is going to have to step in to remove him and salvage the situation...except that never happens. Jellico runs circles around the Cardassians, stops their invasion in its tracks, and is even the one who actually forces them to return Picard.
And it ends up making the Enterprise crew look pretty bad, because they think they're in a Badmiral episode only the Badmiral never showed up.
Birdmonster115599@reddit
I don't think that Jellico was a good captain. I think he was absolutely terrible during that whole affair. I know that puts me in the minority a lot of people think he was tough and decisive, and that Riker was unprofessional. But after multiple viewings I really can't see that. Riker hold it together as best as he can. Even when Jellico is compromising the ship with erratic orders he stay the path until he can't do his job anymore.
He says he wants a four shift rotation. Riker says three shifts has worked fine. But Jellico insists on another difficult timetable. Riker complies and comes back saying the rest of the department heads can't do it. It'll cause too many problems on the timetable he assigned. Jellico doesn't care. He doesn't make any attempt to adapt his plans to suit the actual situation he's in. He blames Riker for not following orders even though Riker did try to follow orders, but used his experience, intelligence and communications skills to come to the conclusion that the Shift change would be detrimental to the ship and the mission. That is what an officer, A first Officer especially is supposed to do. Jellico asks Riker to personally lead four combat drills. He does it with no problem or protest.
Just like Geordie, Riker could actually communicate why something wasn't a good idea, or why it wouldn't work and for some reason Jellico took this as a bad attitude.
His shit with Geordi is even worse. The chief engineer informs him that modifications to the power grid would cut off currently running experiments and stellar cartography. "We need more power for the phaser Geordie!" Right. But isn't that partly what red alert does? To automatically transfer power from non critical systems to defensive systems? Do we really think Stellar cartography is running during battle? Then we get to Geordi telling him that raising the efficiency of the warp coils by 15% is pointless and the ship is already above spec. Jellicoe doesn't care. Data points out that it would take the whole Engineering department around the clock to get the job done in two days. Obviously, it's impractical and unnecessary. But Jellyman orders it anyway because his ego can't take the bruising of being told he's wrong. Then he immediately transfers a third of the engineering crew to security. After giving an impossible deadline for a pointless task.
Jellico's negotiation strategy was contingent on a single lynchpin idea which failed. THe idea of asserting dominance over the Cardassians, which backfired, because the Cardassians had their own card to play. Something the great Cardassian expert apparently never anticipated. Maybe if he had communicated what his negotiation strategy was to his team, chiefly Troi and Riker they might of been able to avoid the Cardassians getting one over on them. He's lucky the Cardassian team didn't just leave then and there and Demand a different negotiator from Starfleet, an incredible powerful position to be in.
I'll also point out what Troi said to Riker after Jellico's High IQ diplomacy play of "Act like a child throwing a tantrum".Troi, stated that Jellico was in over his head. He wasn't anywhere near as sure of himself as he was trying to project. But for some stupid reason he insisted on not listening to one of the most experience and capable officers that Starfleet had ever seen. Unfortunately the episode just kind of drops that whole plot point and it's forgotten about in any discussions..
Riker is character assassinated a bit over the course of the episodes. But as Picard says when Jellicoe insults him. He's a highly decorated and capable officer that has been offered a command multiple times. It was Riker that was in charge of the Enterprise when they saved the Federation from the Borg. It was Riker that saved the Federation during Conspiracy. He puts up with Jellicoes shit for as long as he can. Doing his best to course correct and get Jellicoe to understand what the problem is. But eventually he fails. When he and Jellicoe are going at each each in Rikers Quarters Riker is 100% correct. Jellicoe is arrogant and doesn't trust his crew. Which leads to unprofessional behaviour. Jellicoe had his strengths. When they had to investigate what the Cardassians are up to he was as good as anyone else. He had good ideas. But he was a failure of a leader. He repeatedly failed to trust his crew and listen to the advice and expert opinions. When bullets are flying and you're in a trench you have to be able to trust the people next to you. Jellicoe fails at that.
Jellico wouldn't listen to his crew, his officers and his negotiating strategy was terrible and nearly blew up in his face. All because he was in over his head and couldn't adapt to the situation properly.
Ambitious_Local5218@reddit (OP)
It's just really hard for me to understand how somebody could possibly have this take. He literally made all the systems on the ship better and succeeded in his mission with flying colors.
Birdmonster115599@reddit
What evidence is there his change to four shifts actually improved things? His word? That's it? Man's got a big ego, and he has trouble putting it aside. Troi notes this when she indicates he's not as sure of himself as he likes to make out. That is a dangerous element to have at a flashpoint. But instead of relying on his crew, the best in the fleet, he hides things that don't need to be hidden, argues, doesn't listen, quibbles over minor details.
The order to have the science section shut down is pointless. Red Alert automatically adjusts the ship so that combat systems are fully powered and non critical systems are shut down.
He gave the engineering crew an order regarding the warp coils. his subject matter expert, LaForge, probably the most experienced engineer regarding Galaxy class engines said was pointless. But Jellico disregarded and went with it anyway. Why listen to experts after all. Then, he's told it'll take 2 days of round the clock work to do this job. Obviously impractical a waste and resources and time. So he orders it done because he struggles with listening to other officers. He sees them as insubordinate for even doing their job.
Then orders one third of the engineering team to be transferred to another department.
So the thing that was unnecessary and going to take two days of the entire engineering department working around the clock now just got made impossible to meet that timetable.
Under those circumstances, I'd say Jellico was Self-Sabotaging his own command.
The same could be said of his negotiating strategy, the 'act like a toddler with a tantrum' one. He deliberately withheld his plan from his team for no reason other than he wanted to look like a big man and surprise everyone. He's giddy when he leaves that conference room and gets to let them in on his big plan. Which of course doesn't work... because the cardassian expert here didn't consider that the Cardassians had a plan, an ace in the whole, something to bargin with. Picard.
So when they walk back in there, the cardassians just drop that on them, and Jellico is left dumbfounded.
When Jellico gets out of his own way, he can be a good officer. There are hints of that when he let's his ego go. But he struggles greatly with that.
kittenconfidential@reddit
this is an interesting take— if you watch crimson tide gene hackman’s character also makes the excellent point that wars are not fought from points of comfort. that chaos in battle should be trained for, expected, embraced. denzel washington’s character was proven right for the ends, but not the means. when a ship that is designed for science finds itself in literal military territory — then military tactics must supersede operational command.
j0siahs74@reddit
Counter point: he’s perfectly rated. He was great & most people agree with that, but he was in one two parter episode & we are still talking about it like 40 years later. Seems pretty appropriately rated to me wouldn’t ya say?
DumpsterFireInHell@reddit
Fuck no.
The1Ylrebmik@reddit
Yeah I think the totality of opinion is in hindsight Riker came off looking worse than Jellico in the episode
Mrrrrggggl@reddit
I think a good leader is also a good communicator. Changing to four shifts probably would have been fine if he communicated why it was necessary, instead of I don’t have time to explain, just get it done. In a war situation, he also need a crew that trusts him to do the right thing, by dictating all of the conditions without explanation, it would just lead to the crew second guessing in a stressful situation whether what they are doing is right. And worse yet, not understanding the reasoning for his orders means they can’t take initiative to anticipate or supplement his directions if things do go awry. Imagine if he got killed right at the beginning of the engagement, the rest of the crew would have been at a loss as to what to do next, because he would have altered a bunch of stuff to something unfamiliar without the crew knowing the reason.
Fa_Cough69@reddit
And got home in time for Corn Flakes
Defiance-of-gravity@reddit
He was also prepared to unleash ED-209 on the Cardies
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Jellico was a military commander, and a damn good one. Trouble is we aren't used to seeing things from the military perspective in Star Trek, so commanders like him don't get seen too often. What's worse, we're seeing him through the eyes of the crew who were accustomed to the scientist and refined diplomat in the Center Seat.
This is precisely why actual militaries rotate out commanders and crewmen every couple of years.
Fencer308@reddit
I’ve had new CEOs in real life take over my company several times, and nearly every time, the first thing they do is come in and start throwing their weight around, making changes. Sometimes the changes have been good, but more often they’ve been meaningless or downright negative. But all the new CEOs do it because they feel the need to mark their new territory. To prove to the employees that things will be done THEIR way now, and to prove to the board of directors that they’re gonna make some serious changes.
But almost all of them settle in after 3-6 months and calm down, and things fall back into a similar rhythm as before.
Starfleet captains are like CEOs of their ships. The minute they step on board, they’re under immense pressure to mark their territory, plant a flag, make their presence known. That’s what Jellico is doing here. I have never appreciated this type of leadership, who make changes to satisfy their ego or to show off to their bosses, rather than taking a moment and making thoughtful decisions about what changes should be made. I understand what Jellico was doing, but I’m sure it did more harm than good.
darwinDMG08@reddit
Ronny Cox just joined Reddit.
thisistheSnydercut@reddit
I heard he killed Bob Morton because he made a mistake
Smooth-Climate8008@reddit
Jellico was there to do an impossible, completely thankless job: replace a beloved skipper and change the Enterprise’s mission profile from undirected exploration to front-line combat. Honestly, his “clean break” strategy was a solid one; tone at the top is extremely important if you’re changing organizational culture!
The problem was Riker. His job as XO is to be the go-between for the skipper and the crew. (Well, it should also be the role for the Enterprise’s command master chief, but we’ll skip past that for now). Sending the crew’s (not unreasonable!) gripes and concerns is part of his job. However! He’s also supposed to support the skipper to the crew, presenting a united chain of command. His public petulance is inexcusably unprofessional.
Smooth-Climate8008@reddit
Riker probably should have been subjected to military discipline (read: fired) for that stunt
kaptiankuff@reddit
Nah Ben Maxwell
tsukiyomi01@reddit
This is a somewhat common take. I had a boss who was like Jellico Lite (had your back, fair minded, willing to get his hands dirty, but too stern to actually like). As a boss, I respected him, but I was kinda relieved when he retired.
There is some merit to Jellico's command style, but I'm not sure it offsets his abrasiveness. I wouldn't enjoy serving under him.
RaidenTJ@reddit
Funny thing about four shifts…Kira suggested the same to Sisko and Sisko thought it would provide more relief to his staff and crew.
StriveToTheZenith@reddit
This post reads like it was written by AI
Ambitious_Local5218@reddit (OP)
Did anybody else find it weird that these supposed department head managers apparently have more authority than the officers? I mean, obviously they don't have more authority, but you know what I mean. They basically told the officers to fuck off when they said they wanted switch to 4 shifts. Didn't make any sense to me. I feel like in a real world they would have just shut the hell up and done what they are told. Who is a department head anyway and why wouldn't that be the job of Riker Data or La Forge?
ryguymcsly@reddit
There’s also a specific management technique in play. Picard had a ship that was well run, but it depended on Picard’s specific personality and style to keep going that way. The missions up to that point had a very different nature than what Jellico was expecting it to be in the future.
Instead of trying to step into Picard’s shoes, which would be quite hard to fill, he disrupted the whole crew. He knew the crew worked well together so they could handle change, and by mixing everything up he sent a few signals: 1. They needed to be ready for rapid change. 2. He was not Picard and he wasn’t going to try to be. The last knock on effect is that he united the crew in a common enemy: him.
With no history and approaching a mission of potential war he was set up for disaster. Going into the fray he had a crew that was angry (at him), united (in their hate towards him), adaptable (thanks to his recent flurry of changes), and ready (thanks to the drills and changes he made).
If things went sideways the crew would be united against the Cardassians and see everything Jellico did as necessary and have respect for him, what they’d need in wartime. If they didn’t go sideways then the crew was primed to welcome Picard back with open arms.
He didn’t show up to be liked, he showed up to get the job done. The only people who saw what he was doing and respected it were the handful of senior staff that were left going “wtf just happened” when he left the ship.
Which is precisely why he was used by Starfleet as a fixer. Dude could walk into any ship in the fleet they’re about to send into a potential hot zone and do the same thing.
The27Roller@reddit
Jellico was the right guy for the job in that situation. Riker should have been more professional. I love that the show explored this scenario.
Have to say though, I always thought “Jellico” was a dumb name.
bmyst70@reddit
While I understand he was trying to prepare the Enterprise for war, he basically did it the wrong way.
If war was inevitable and could break out at any time, the very last thing you want to do is introduce major changes in routines. Sleep cycle disruption has a massive negative impact on crew performance. And morale which is how battles are lost or won.
Several of the changes just came across as him being petty as well. While they may have made perfect sense to do, such as ordering Troi to use a normal uniform, again it doesn't help military readiness.
So I don't think he did the right things at that time. I'm glad he succeeded in getting Picard back but his methods wouldn't have worked for the crew long term.
VinceP312@reddit
He got Troi into a standard uniform. That's all I care about
IolausTelcontar@reddit
His only good and lasting legacy.
Low_Rope7564@reddit
Even assuming you are correct about everything, that doesn’t make him underrated. Lots of people agree with you.
CodeNameFrumious@reddit
I think there's nothing wrong with recognizing different kinds of leaders are better for different situations.
Cute_Repeat3879@reddit
Jellico's negotiation tactics fail utterly. The Cardassians make no concessions and box him into abandoning Picard.
mcgrst@reddit
My usual response to this is the crew that both survived the Borg and defeated them, nothing Jelico is doing is for anything other than his ego.
bela_okmyx@reddit
Just watch this video: https://youtu.be/09TySF0FN6Y?si=eFxpOBDhbR5vtBR4
Also, a lot of people's opinions of this character are influenced by the perception of the actor - Ronny Cox had a career revival in the 80s by shifting from the nice guy, dad-next-door persona (Apple's Way, Deliverance) to corporate villain (Robocop, Total Recall, St. Elsewhere).
strangway@reddit
Every strategic decision regarding the Cardassian conflict could have been done by Jellico not being abrasive. They’re the most qualified crew running the most powerful ship in Starfleet. Even without Jellico, Riker could have carried out the mission successfully.
Independent-File-519@reddit
You are very much overcorrecting.
No_Addendum_719@reddit
It’s not meant to be black or white.
Was he successful completing the mission he was asked to do? Yes. Was he an active party of the success? Yes. Was luck involved in his success? Also yes.
Did he do things that can be questionable? Yes. Doing these things that we consider questionable differently would have given a different outcome? Who knows.
Senior-Housing-703@reddit
My biggest annoyance with this episode is how butthurt Riker acts. If any junior officer had spoken to him the way he did Jellico, Riker would have snapped their heads back so fast they would think they were a first year cadet again.
Ambitious_Local5218@reddit (OP)
In all fairness he never tried to run around Jellico, lol.
GargamelLeNoir@reddit
Changing 1000 people's schedule during a complete refit and a crisis just to assert his authority was idiotic. He was great on everything else. And him getting Deanna to wear proper clothes was heroic.
TheApexFan@reddit
CORRECT. May I also add that he’s shown to genuinely care about the people around him in private, peer-to-peer moments. Whether it’s proactively trying to help Picard’s “suicide mission” by providing actionable intelligence (thusly improving the odds of mission success) or demonstrating concern for the team in conversation with Admiral Nechayev (“I’d like to see our friends again, too.”), he’s not the Starfleet type we’re used to, but he is Starfleet.
I don’t love him in some attempt to be “edgy”. I love him because he’s genuinely a good person and a damn fine leader.
Ohboyham@reddit
Whoa I am surprised as these comments, Jellico was urgent and focused, he was the perfect tool for working with cardassians. I don’t see how people see it differently. In the military you have many different types of leadership styles and they have different uses. Picard is perfect for traveling among the stars the perfect diplomat to meet new races. I bet there are other captains who are just as competent just in different ways. Riker is such a brat in that episode, do your job!!
Greyhaven7@reddit
So tired of Jellico stans. He’s a complete asshole. Being right about a few things doesn’t make that acceptable.
Anchovypirate@reddit
To me the genius of that episode is that both Jellico’s and Picard’s style are effective. It ends up upending the evil-admiral cliche(okay technically not an Admiral).
xMisterSnrubx@reddit
Can you even IMAGINE what Jellico would think of Chancellor Wine Aunt in SFA?
ReBoomAutardationism@reddit
To quote Admiral Ernest King post Pearl Harbor "When they get in trouble, they send for the sons-of-bitches".
WhoMe28332@reddit
Jellico is the guy you call when the shit is about to hit the fan. He got the job done and prevented a war while getting whiney pushback from Riker and Geordi the whole time.
CHawk17@reddit
Jellico is not a good leader.
When Riker was bringing the challenges faced with the shift changes, he did so in private. But was summarily dismissed, wasn't heard and eventually taken off active duty.
Remember that this also included transferring significant staff from engineering to security.
Jellico isn't wrong for wanting these changes. But a good leader would at minimum show respect to his subordinates and listen to their legitimate concerns.
Respect is earned, and Jellico earned the disrespect he got.
MozeDad@reddit
It is very interesting that Starfleet chose NOT to simply let Riker take over for a brief time. Instead they sent in this guy we've never even heard of. They must have had a reason.
TheVyper3377@reddit
By that point, Riker had already turned down command of three different ships, received a promotion to Captain, then voluntarily demoted back to Commander to continue serving as First Officer on the Enterprise-D. And this behavior was from an officer with the stated goal of becoming a Captain by the age of 35.
Think about how that looked to Starfleet Command, especially with the threat of another war with the Cardassians. Here’s a guy who says he wants to be Captain, but just wouldn’t sit in the chair. When he finally did sit in the chair, he got right back out again as soon as his former Captain got de-Borged. This seems indicative of an indecisive individual. Sure, he’s a competent officer (he wouldn’t be on the flagship otherwise), but he seems to be overly wary of actually assuming the Big Chair. Is that who you would want in charge in a potential war scenario?
Fuzzy_Builder_2153@reddit
The Beard showed that he isn't capable of leading into war with his lackadaisical effort in Rascals where he got people killed.
He had Worthless notify him the BoPs had weapons and shields charged for at least a minute. He didn't order shields until they started firing.
His effort shouldve ended in a court martial with him in hard Labor
MeowMaker2@reddit
It is easier to bring in a new character that has a past to allow the unknown, to also include a possibility that it is not temporary when Riker mentioned (paraphrasing)'they don't make these changes for temporary reasons'.
hoipolloi2026@reddit
I love that we're still arguing over some of these episodes.
Chemical-Actuary683@reddit
This reads very AI.
1ndomitablespirit@reddit
Imagine all the downvotes he’d get if he could post to reddit.
Forschungsamt@reddit
AI crap…
Fuzzy_Builder_2153@reddit
He shouldve made them do morning PT along with everything he did.
I don't even know how Enterprise and crew got assigned to any missions besides LOVE BOAT ones.
Jellico shouldve kept his ship and have Enterprise reassigned to a Trade Diplomacy mission to the Quellar system.
siliconandsteel@reddit
You can both be an asshole and get results. Does not automatically mean that assholery helps.
Jellico won despite Jellico, when he started working with the crew.
Impact of his changes is unclear, we lack context.
Petrostar@reddit
Chain of command was all about Starfleet putting it's Aces in their Places so they could deal with the Cardassian situation. The Enterprise was their flag ship, and it had a lot of talent. But Picard wasn't the right tool to deal with the Cardassian, hence bring in Jellico
_Nacktmull_@reddit
Nice rage bait, bro