Maybe at $200 this is a decent can but by the time I pay shipping and my local ffl’s $100 NFA transfer fee I could just buy a Sparrow or something instead.
Call it all you want. It's true.
I've ordered 3 cans through mine this year. They order from the distributor, I pay $0 in transfer fees. It's not always the best money for the can itself, but without the fees I come out ahead. They make their money on the retail markup instead of the fee.
My son has been asking for a 3D printer…and I figure I can file some Form 1’s and crank some suppressors out when he gets bored of it in a couple months.
How many rounds are you getting out of a 22lr can now?
If you look at r/form1 and/or look at ftn suppressors, you'll see people are saying they are getting thousands of rounds out of 22lr cans.
I just looked at the info for a few hours and basically if you want the best durability, you'll want a printer capable of carbon fiber core filament like ppa-cf or pa6cf which needs higher temps than pla/pla+. But you will also want dry boxes and all this other stuff for that, which starts getting spendy. You're talking $3-400 for a low end enclosed printer capable of the temps needs + all the extra drybox/heating stuff.
Ftn.5 rimfire is supposed to work fine with pla+, which can be printed with something as basic as a creality ender 3 v3 which is like $200 new and you can get refurbs on eBay for closer to $100.
You can find on reddit people saying they've gone through hundreds/thousands of rounds of rimfire with pla+, even some confidence in frt applications. But being cheap to reprint even a few hundred rounds isn't a big deal.
As for the form1, you can register an aluminum tube or machine bushing for the actual form and then put them on the end of the new device you print and it follows the letter of the law.
you should really just get the A1 mini and upgrade to a hardened hotend, you can then print CF nylon which is the recommended.
(as long as the build volume is big enough? I think it is!)
ender 3s will work but aren't worth the hassle.
Thanks, I saw some info on the a1 but was having a bit of difficulty figuring out what it was referring to exactly. Honestly, only spent a little bit of time today on this so I was really just posting what I had found so far as a starting point.
It looks like I can actually bundle a .4mm or .6mm hardened steel hotend with the mini itself direct from Bambu for $230. Seems like a good deal, I'll have to look into it a bit more. The chart on Bambu says the .4 has been tested with PLA-CF but says the .6 is recommended for other brands. Maybe I can either get both, or I'll have to see which one is more versatile if I want to use PPS-CF, PPA-CF or PA6-CF to print.
I would avoid anything carbon-fiber reinforced. It is essentially a marketing scam, you are paying extra to sprinkle carcinogenic materials in your print with the only result being guaranteed voids and reduced layer adhesion. It is more money for less performance and a health risk to boot.
Are you saying that all the people designing and printing suppressors are actually deriving no benefit from printing with cf reinforced filament?
Data seems hard to come by so while the general consensus seems to point towards using it, I'm very willing to consider otherwise if there's actual data to back up your point.
Not just suppressors, for printing in general. There is no strength benefit from printing in CF. CF is strong because it is a continuous fiber that is incredibly strong in tension but weak in compression and shear, so it is woven and epoxied together in ways that make it strong in multiple directions. In CF-filled filament, it is just tiny lengths of ground up strands sprinkled in your polymer. There is no continuous fiber, there is no alignment for strength in multiple directions. It is just there, causing voids in your layers and doing nothing helpful.
[Here is a super quick video comparing PETG to CF-filled PETG.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfztVplTBQc)
[Here is another more in-depth one that talks about it more and provides microscope shots of what the CF is actually doing to your prints.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7JperqVfXI&t=1s)
So are you saying something like PLA+ would most likely give similar durability? What's the use case for cf infused filaments at all, or are you saying it's more a gimmick?
I personally think they are mostly a gimmick. They do have some very niche applications like having bit more rigidity and better print stability (i.e. less warpage/shrinkage for holding more precise tolerances) but these are things that are only useful in very specific applications and the vast majority of people buying CF aren't buying it for those, they are buying it because it is commonly believed to be stronger.
Just as a general warning to everyone else reading, if you do print exotics like nylon it is a good idea to print not where you inhabit, A lot of more "high class" filaments are slightly to very toxic.
I just commented this same thing. I worry about this for people.
FWIW, my filtration and exhaust setup was done for ~$150 and it works wonderfully. Can't put a price on you and your family's health
> ender 3s will work but aren't worth the hassle.
The Ender 3 is generally just used as a baseline reference machine. Anyone actually recommending an Ender 3 (really any Ender) in the past 2-3 years is either uninformed, or has a grudge against you.
Kind of like recommending an Anet A8 after 2018, or a Makerbot as anything other than novelty to tinker on.
Also, with where printers have gotten, buying an A1 mini really just seems like a bad choice. The step up to an enclosed printer gives massive benefits and doesn't cost much (some decent options at the same price point, before even considering the massive sales that other brands do) as well as avoiding a walled garden (proprietary hardware and firmware.) Bambu has played with the idea of forcing you to use the cloud and have subscriptions. Personally I won't support that kind of behavior from a company, but to each their own.
You can step up to an enclosed printer, that isn't a bed slinger, has support on both sides of the z-axis, and isn't stuck in a walled garden for "like $30"
Again, to each their own. Everyone has different priorities for what they want from a printer.
Elegoo or AnyCubic or Sovol are brands I've heard good things about, if you are near a microcenter you could buy from there, they have a good return policy, just print for a couple dozen hours to make sure everything works.
Plug and play, at A1 mini price point, with decent QC? Bambu.
Creality is known for QC issues/ If you get a good one, or fix the issue, they run great though. I would only look at the K2 series though.
Prusa, you are paying extra for the open source R&D that basically all consumer 3d printers have benefited from. If you go up in price point, you get unique features that don't really exist elsewhere. IMO, the Prusa MK doesn't really have a place in the market. The XL is interesting, but overpriced considering some competitors. The CORE One+ and Core One L, I need to look at a bit more.
I've heard good things about certain Elegoo (Centauri, Centauri Carbon), QIDI (Plus4), Anycubic (Kobra 3, Kobra S1), and Sovol printers. I can't personally vouch for them though.
I'd go with something like the Qidi X Max 3. Upgrade available for 350c hotend which gets you printing PPS-CF. There are a few near me on marketplace for $350-400.
For drying, a goodwill toaster oven that can hold ~225f is common. Typical filament dryers can't get hot enough so toaster ovens are the answer!
If you are printing those filaments you NEED to make sure you are setting up a proper enclosure and exhaust and/or PROPER filtration. Those fumes are real bad for you.
I mean, how about in a garage with the window open and the door up? Or do I need a specific venting system like a fan and ductwork? I don't mean rigid, but a box fan and flexible tubing, that wouldn't cost much. An
Personally I would go with a ductwork route especially if you're going to be hanging out in there. You can get an enclosure for $30 (or really just diy one out if you're crafty), an inline fan for like another $30, some ducts for like $10 and vent it outside. That will help your heating/cooling bills to the point where it would probably pay for itself anyway, assuming you're not in a detached garage or shed.
I'm not a scientist or any type of health expert. I just want to put this info out there for people to take serious and know these risks exist, and to do their own research. Your risk tolerance is ultimately your call.
Thanks for the info. I'm keeping my eye on the Elegoo Centauri Carbon. It's on sale for $289 right now and looks like it can handle all the stuff I'm interested in making, both 2A related(lowers, suppressors, pistol frames etc) and otherwise (sculptures and car related stuff) and can easily handle cf filament along with pla. I'm not particularly interested in multi color so no reason to spend double on the new cc2.
Yeah I second your opinion about multicolor. You can always just paint something on the rare occasion that's something you do want.
Check out the qidi q2 as well. I forgot what my pros and cons were when I was looking at options, but that's the one I landed on.
Word to the wise for future proofing- get something that can use good slicer software that doesn't need to connect to the internet. NY is already talking about making laws to keep printers from printing 2A stuff. That will be surprisingly easy to implement for printers like Bambu where it essentially needs internet connection to work well.
Also, if that type of thing concerns you at all, and you are savvy enough to Google your way through this, check this out: https://github.com/thepaulestpaul/GCAD-Index-Bulk-Downloads
It's a good way to save a local copy of tonnnnnssss of 2a3d files. Like 400gB worth.
Good point!
It’s easy to run some flex duct, install an inline fan, and seal it, and it’s worth it regardless of the difficulty level.
Hell, there’s several ways I can think of that it can be done to commercial-spec(on a much smaller scale) and still look nice…which I think is a big turn off for people. They don’t want it looking like a trap-trailer.
considering there are already 22 cans that have plastic baffles i would say pretty much the same as a regular 22 can, obv. metal would be "better" but your paying ~20$ for filament & parts instead of 2-400$
Ohhh, I didn’t know there were manufacturers putting plastic baffles in .22 cans. That’s wild…and I would be fine if it only lasted 1k rounds…I just want to do it.
I wonder how long the plastic filament printed 5.56 cans are lasting?
There are a few browser addons that fill forms with data from excel sheets as well.
I just hoped someone else had already done the work since I haven't bothered
My son has been asking for a 3D printer…and I figure I can file some Form 1’s and crank some suppressors out when he gets bored of it in a couple months.
How many rounds are you getting out of a 22lr can now?
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My LGS had a bunch of these in stock for $239, which i think is the MSRP.
Quality felt nicer than the sparrow in the hand but none of the staff had shot one yet, and can't find any reviews online. But for that price and no stamp it might be worth trying it out.
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Anodized, means it's aluminum. It's not titanium at this price point. Monocore baffle stack is probably also aluminum. Quick website check confirmed both. Notably, not full auto or 5.7 rated like most other suppressors. This is the bare minimum for a rimfire suppressor, but will do the job and can be cleaned.
How are you cleaning your Aluminum baffle rimfire cans? Admittedly I have a full Al can that probably has 3k+ of 22lr through it and it’s never been cleaned because there is so much conflicting info on how to properly clean them
Breakthrough suppressor cleaner. Let it sit for a couple hours and you can wipe most of the fouling off with a paper towel, nylon brush for the tougher crap. I have a DA Mask and YHM Phantom that I’ve been doing this on. 3 mins prep mostly disassembly, toss them in a jar with the cleaner couple hours soak, 10 mins each wiping baffles.
I throw my baffles in my tumbler with SS media and teaspoon of dishwasher detergent but I'd only suggest this with SS baffles.
I'll soak them in a 50/50 simple green and water overnight before and after if necessary. Pick at the really bad spots if I feel like it.
I coat the outside of the baffles with shotgun choke grease before reassembling for easy cleaning next time.(Not sure if this actually does anything)
Yeah, you don't need a piston for the Gen 2 (threaded) pistols. But you'd think if they were going to enter the suppressor game, they'd do so with a serialized NAPA adapter that covers the blowback holes so you can get the full Max Payne vibe going.
O man the form 1 market used to be great! I have three quietbore form 1 cans. Creative arms just replaced some parts for free still backing their warranty.
It’s still there! Just legit guys with real machines and lathes, present company included.
BUT, I don’t think we can compete with additive manufacturing…..it’s my personal opinion that we’re going to see a serious takeoff in the suppressor tech market!!
Just look at the Tisha from SAW for a sampling of what I think is to come!
> BUT, I don’t think we can compete with additive manufacturing…..it’s my personal opinion that we’re going to see a serious takeoff in the suppressor tech market!
I would disagree. The tech was driven by high prices and the high prices were driven by elevated consumer interest and an inherently high cost barrier - no point in a 100 dollar suppressor if the tax stamp is 200. When the practical minimum is 400 dollars, then you have to differentiate yourself based on the technology. Now I think suppressor manufacturers are going to compete more on cost than quality.
I can make 10 cans a time with minimal material loss. It is way fucking cheaper than machining one. Not to mention what you can do with the internal structures now. The machines are expensive but cheaper than my mills.
Milling is expensive, I was thinking stamped stainless steel baffles in an extruded aluminum tube. Basically try to make a universal 45 cal can (556/308 rated) at the 150 dollar mark being the goal - not particularly good at noise reduction, but cheap and durable.
You’re not wrong at all, and I don’t disagree, but I think the top tier performers, especially with flow, will be printed….i could be wrong, hope I am! Because I’d love to see the conventional construction tech be pushed as well.
We all win!
I used to argue all the time that had the NFA never included suppressors the tech we’d have today would be crazy! And we’d have integral suppressors on many more guns.
3d printed cans (titanium, not plastic) are pretty cheap. Retail, I can buy 1kg of Ti64 for $316/kg right now. Looks like losses during printing are about 60%, but much of that can be recycled into the material for the next print. If we say 50% is irrevocably lost during an SLM print then $316 gets us 1.1lb of parts (about 18oz).
3d printed cans are down to like 8oz these days. If we say we're making 10oz cans then we can get 1.8 cans per kg, or 9 cans from 5kg of Ti64. $1580/9 puts us at $176 in material cost per can that retails for $1200.
Right now the fixed costs are insane as SLM machines aren't cheap. But, as they produce, the average fixed cost goes down and they, in theory, can lower prices and maintain the same margin.
Basically prices should come down as the capital costs are spread amongst more units. Also more competition in the space will do the same as the skills required for SLM are arguably easier to learn vs traditional machining.
You'd be suprised, some of those plastic printed cans are solid af if your use case is bolt action or you are just shooting 9mm or .22. Idk how they hold up to intermediate/full size cartridges yet, but I'll follow up once my f1s get approved lol.
The filaments they have for the plastic ones are getting pretty good. Some of them will hold up no problem to the pressure, and can take heat up to ~450 f.
My SOT buddy is thinking of selling some actually for cheap cheap. I told him I'd post him on here if he does.
I think across the board, cheap cans are going to be a thing. In places like Switzerland that's essentially what the market looks like.
Oh I'm well aware! I recently ordered a few parts to bump my P1S hotend temps up to 350c to print PPS-CF. Going to form 1 quite a few cans!
I was just clarifying that the example pricing I was giving was for metal 3d printing, not plastic. It's an order of magnitude cheaper to print them in plastic 😉
> $176 in material cost per can that retails for $1200.
...compared to a milled tube and stamped baffles with material costs of what, 10 dollars?
The concept of a $1200 can was easier to swallow when it was connected to a 200 dollar tax stamp. Now that is gone, you are left with only a marginally better product than a 400 dollar can.
There aren’t many (or any) reviews. Lack of reviews notwithstanding, I’d still choose the Hi Point over JK partly for the memes and partly for the fact that Hi Point is widely known to have pretty good customer service.
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| gmansportingarms.com | |
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| Registered | June 05, 2021 |
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