The problem is it makes absolutely no sense price wise. I also don't understand why they threw big brakes on such an underpowered car. If the goal was a Civic Hybrid Coupe there was no reason to use Civic Type R parts, and they could've offered the car at a reasonable MSRP
I think your point about whom the Prelude is for is the exact reason it’s getting so much hate, and why it deserves to. And I’ll expand this to a criticism of Honda in general.
I think most people would agree that the biggest competitor to Honda is Toyota. If I had to guess, I’d bet Toyota is the brand most often cross-shopped with Honda, but I don’t have the numbers.
If we look at the new or redesigned models Toyota has given us recently that can be purchased within a 10% difference of the Prelude’s MSRP, we have:
* a midsized BOF pickup
* a midsized BOF SUV
* a relatively small car that can seat 4-5 people, carry their stuff, get over 50 mpg, accelerate quicker than a tectonic plate, and look great (btw, why would anyone get the Prelude over the new Prius, which kinda does all the Prelude things better?)
* an AWD hot hatch (this one’s a little unfair because the Civic Type R exists)
* a mainstream crossover that has versions that aren’t completely lame (only mostly lame)
* a (relatively) lightweight manual RWD sports coupe
* a Supra (only counting the 4 cyl price wise)
The Tacoma and 4Runner print money. What does Honda have to compete? A slightly lifted Odyssey with the sliding doors removed to battle the 4Runner. And to compete with the Tacoma, they took the Odyssey spinoff and removed half the roof.
The RAV4 is the best-selling vehicle in the U.S. that isn’t a pickup truck. What does Honda have to compete? The CR-V. Which, admittedly, is a very, very popular vehicle. But it’s not as popular as the RAV4. There is no off-road version of it. There is no 300-hp version of it. But there is an even more efficient version of it.
Honda has nothing that even remotely competes with the Supra or GR86.
Toyota is going after the enthusiast market *and* the mainstream market. They more or less own the mainstream market in certain segments, and offer vehicles that Honda doesn’t compete with at all in others (what is Honda’s competitor to the Sequoia or Land Cruiser?)
Honda is not. They sell two different upgraded Civics, which have the best manuals this side of a Porsche. But that’s *it.* They don’t lead the mainstream and they don’t bother with the enthusiast market at all. Compare that to 2005, when Honda was making the S2000, original NSX, second-gen GL, and EP3 Civic Si. And the Element. The fastest Toyotas that year were a V6 RAV4 and a Tacoma with a body kit.
Back to today, apart from the Civics, Honda has basically abandoned the enthusiast market entirely. And when they bring back a beloved name, it’s a less practical Civic hybrid coupe with suspension no buyer will ever care about, mismatched seats, and a $10k markup from the manufacturer.
That is why the new Prelude sucks. As a car in a vacuum it’s fine. But as a symbol of Honda actually trying to make something cool, it’s hilarious.
Which car do you suppose they alter to make this enthusiast machine you talk about? The CTR exists because the civic is one of the best selling hatches ever, its the perfect platform for an enthusiast sports car because people love the chassis already, so sticking some expensive shit under the hood and fenders isn't as expensive as trying to design a whole new Sportster chassis unlike anything they currently have the tooling for. It also allows them to take the market for a run because no one else has the ability or the market strategy to do what they did with the CTR. Why should honda cannibalise their own ethusiast market with a move that is growing more and more risky with every passing year?
Your list is missing the 230i. 10% discount is easy on that and puts well equipped ones very close to the Prelude's MSRP. Also, the new Toyota CEO is a Bean Counter, so they might go boring again.
I wasn’t intending to name all the other cars you can buy for the same money in my comment, but you’re right. I can’t imagine buying a Prelude over a 230i. There will be a handful of people who do, but you’d have to really, really like Honda.
Do enthusiasts and mainstream need to be mutually exclusive? It feels like most car these days seem hyper tailored for some specific market demographic. Its like you either have a hardcore +350HP turbocharged RWD MT with a deafening exhaust, racecar seats, and bumpy rough riding roadfeel as the "enthusiast" car. Then you have your typical boring commuter/family-ferrying sedans, crossovers and SUVs as your "mainstream" car. All anything overlapping these two is typically priced well over into the "luxury" car demographic.
I at least applaud Honda for attempting to straddle between so many demographic boundaries with a mild-sport mild-luxury hybrid-electric hatch-coupe and its not another crossover this time. There is nothing else like it to compare it to and its not clearly targeted at some specific demographic. Having such a uniquely positioned offering is pretty cool to me.
I don’t really see how whether there is any overlap between target audiences for Product A and Product B is relevant at all here. The point I’m making is that Toyota is beating Honda both from a car enthusiast’s and a regular consumer’s perspective.
The reason there is nothing to complain the Prelude to is other brands learned from the Cadillac ELR.
I’m surprised no one is comparing it to the latest Prius.
I think the prelude is so disappointing because any new coupe or sporty car, especially an affordable one, is extremely rare nowadays. Hearing that Honda might have a real competitor to the GR86/miata was really exciting until it came out that it was a wrong wheel drive automatic hybrid. I can’t be the only one that’s sick of hearing about the same cars over and over again as the only performance options in the lower price brackets. I understand they don’t make much money for automakers but it feels like all the big car brands don’t have any real identity anymore now that the only thing you see on the road are NPCmobile crossovers that all look the same.
In what world did the announcement of a revival to Honda's budget FWD 2+2 grand tourer ever mean it would drop a competitor for the markets highest selling budget purebred sportsters. This is the reality of the prelude's reception right now. It's a market that doesn't have a grip.
“wrong wheel drive automatic hybrid”. entirely on you for not knowing that the preludes whole shtick was that it was a “wrong” wheel drive automatic GT car. don’t be mad at honda for you having the wrong expectations
No, the point here is Honda doesn't learn lessons unless its beat into them and like a kid throw a tantrum and try anyway still lose for it. Look up the Honda CRZ and more recently the new Acura TLX. They had the perfect formula in the 80s and early 90s for a car everyone liked and they will try anything but return to it and try to dodge responsibility for being unable to learn a lesson.
Agreed, if it were a proper sports car it would have been the s2000, not the prelude. But that would be in a different price bracket too. Surely it wasn’t foolish to hope Honda might realize a fwd auto coupe has less of a market in this segment than a proper sporty car?
Two door Mini's and Golfs are not more expensive than 4 doors (if anything they're usually cheaper), they are not significantly less practical (like the prelude is) and they didn't sell a shit ton, hence the Golf axing the two door.
Alright besides the golf and mini comparison, my point still stands. the prelude is a sporty option for an older customer who doesn’t want a sports car. does that make sense?
If that was true it wouldn't share suspension components from the Type R, have bigger brakes and regardless, retired people who want a sports car that isn't a sports car is such a tiny demographic this car wouldn't sell well at any price point.
Honda doesn't know who this car is for.
You're kind of missing an important part of this conversation. YES the prelude is an odd car to revive. Not because Honda isn't doing it right, but because YOU guys don't know who this car is for. The prelude was always about being a comfortable coupe commuter that blended sportiness and tech with daily driving. It's not supposed to be an enthusiast car, it never was. It's more like a Grand Tourer lite. But to keep that comfort and tech, it has to be heavier and more progressive, this means it loses the lightweight, manual image it used to have. So now its just a heavy coupe in a market that doesn't want coupes, with the name of a car that enthusiasts misunderstand and the powertrain of a hybrid hot hatch.
The same reason half of the 86 and miata segment is owned by 40 year old moms and coffeshop managers. Because people like a fun little car, even if they're not obsessed with everything about it.
Cheaper and easier to drive than a Porsche Cayman with more luxury and practicality than a GR86. Being priced somewhere in-between the two, maybe for the type of mild enthusiast willing to spend some extra $$ on a sporty looking coupe, but don't have the capacity to buy separate cars for both a weekend and a daily car.
As I understand, this started as an unrelated sports project and someone on the engineering team pointed out they literally just made a Prelude. Makes perfect sense given how conservatively Honda is run, but also... *Facepalm*
Well, it is a prelude. A sporty coupe commuter with some nice trim and cool tech. That's purebred prelude dna. It's only missing coincidental features, where back in the 90's the best tech was 4w steering and reliable manual gearboxes. Nowadays hybrid is the luxury tech and auto CVT is the efficient and progressive transmission option. That's not a compromise of the preludes design philosophy, its just applying it to the modern market.
if they can make a large enough profit on only 4000 units a year, then they will. naming it “prelude” assists in that. no different then Ford naming their EV SUV “Mustang”
The name would only assist sales with car enthusiasts who feel a certain level of nostalgia for the original... Which is the exact opposite of the title of this post.
Immediately contradicting yourself is some crazy work lol
Honda Preludes were largely not enthusiast vehicles, and i’m not sure where that conception comes from. They were nicer, sportier GT cars. Even with Si and the Type SH packages.
It was always sportier than the civic. Rear wheel steering is enough to justify that statement. And this is coming from a millennial.
Maybe they weren't initially an enthusiast choice, but that very quickly changed. That will not be the case with a direct drive vehicle with less horsepower than it's civic counterpart.
sporty does not mean sports car, nor does being the enthusiast choice make it a sports car. since Mini coopers are popular for auto cross, does that mean they’re now sports cars? what about CRXs? are they sports cars now?
I'm guessing the youngins associate small sporty looking cars with enthusiast cars. Us olds know full well that lots of basic affordable cars were sold in a sporty aesthetic. This was before every basic car was sold as a SUV.
How are you going to tell someone who grew up with this vehicle that I have a misconception? You weren't even fucking born when these things were popular
I don't agree. The Mustang name helped Mach-E sales while not taking anything away from or tarnishing the sports car. A very small subset of Mustang buyers grumble about it. But nobody is boycotting the car over it. And the ones who boycott the Mach-E over the name are easily dwarfed by those who were positively influenced by it.
Ye, I think the Mach E is a good example of branding, not enough enthusiasts to really care about devaluing the Mustang nameplate, but still shares the obvious styling with the real Mustang and it's good at reaching the audience that wanted a Mustang but didn't want to live with the downsides of owning one. One thing that was weird that I noticed is that the Mustang is like the iconic American car for the Europeans I've spoken to, so the Mach E being an EV Mustang really helped it sell there.
you can call it a lot of things, but stupid isn’t one of those. if it makes them sell, it makes them sell. i think it was a bad idea to call it a mustang because it sours and devaluates the brand, but clearly it’s working.
I understand but why did they put Type R parts and big brakes on it? Seems like a strange move when they could've just kept pedestrian running gear and the target buyer wouldn't have cared or noticed.
The car looks great, but I feel vindicated for having moved on from the brand. Also, near 60k in Canada - lol and lmao.
There is some conjecture, based on the performance parts and chassis structure designed to accommodate an ICE, that a performance gas hybrid model may be in the works.
To be fair, manufacturers have a long history of denying better versions of a car ever existing in the future. Anyone else remember Toyota denying there would ever be a manual Supra, or Nissan saying they’d never do a manual Nismo Z because it would accelerate slower than an automatic base Z?
Because an R spec prelude would directly compete with the CTR. It wouldn't steal every customer, but its splitting two very similar markets between two of Honda's most expensive small cars.
And this is always what the prelude was. A comfortable commuter with a coupe chassis and a peppy powertrain. The only difference is that previous generations of prelude were all made in a time where automatics just weren't budget good. So it happened to come in manual which gave it bonus enthusiast points. But that stick shift was never the point.
I don't understand why people are so heated about it online lmfao. It's a disappointing car for enthusiasts. That's about it. At this point it's Honda's problem whether it sells or not, just buy a CTR if that's what you want or buy similar-product-from-competitor.
I think people are just pissed at Honda because it's exactly the right market segment for a lot of the sub that doesn't really drive at the limit on the street but still want some sporty driving characteristics in an economy GT car for spirited driving, just Honda completely butchered the implementation of the idea and made it undesirable.
The whining enthusiasts would have moved on by now if the prelude was brought back as a hybrid crossover. If that was the case, no one would have been shocked or surprised.
I think the big issue is price.
If it was priced right around a top trim Civic hybrid no one would give a fuck. It'd just be a sporty looking 2 door hybrid Civic. And that would be ok.
But it's $10k more and priced well into the tier of performance variants of economy cars, including Honda's own Type R.
In Canada, it's only ~$1k CAD less than a Golf R, which is a lot more car for the money.
Because there is a strong stigma “it’s just a civic” amongst people with money for $40k+ car it makes total sense to do civic si couple under different name and exterior design.
Now try to pick a better name that Honda portfolio has.
It's worth mentioning that the Prelude only comes in a single maxed out trim option which includes all the luxury + sports trim options and packages from their Civic/Accord line-up - basically its a "Sport Touring" trim. Those trims go for around $5k over their respective base models. Add in the Type-R suspension, 19" rims and Brembo brakes and suddenly its price is no surprise to me in comparison to their other cars if spec'd with similar options and packages.
Now could they have cut those trim option and packages to make it cheaper? Surely. They could have cut down $10k worth of options and packages and basically cut it down to literally be nothing more than a basic trim Civic Hybrid with coupe styling and sell it for ~$32k, but at that point, what is even the point of the car existing? Simply just being a coupe limits to a car that's only going to move a few thousand units at most per model year. Could they make those trim packages optional? Maybe that could work if these were made-to-order factory customized, but not when given to the dealership business model.
With excessive tariffs, chip shortages and uncertainty, legislative volatility, the market is just entirely too hostile for a car like this to exist or be brought to market in the first place. I'm still shocked they did it anyways. I'm not trying to say they made the right decisions, excusing them nor justifying why they did what they did because common business sense would tell they me they just shouldn't have even brought this car to the market to begin with. Very likely they would have been much more successful if they just brought the Prelude back as a sporty looking hybrid cross-over instead of a hybrid coupe.
This right here, retirees where I live wouldn't be caught dead in some pathetic fwd little coupe and they are rolling around in hypercars, Ford Raptor or Ram TRX, and tricked out side by sides that cost more than that Prelude. This is a car purely for honda fanboys blinded by nostalgia and even consumers don't care and will just go buy a CRV or Pilot.
Yeah, this is the sticking point for me. As a CR-Z owner I'm probably the same person who should also want a Prelude, but part of why I got a CR-Z was the manual transmission, and the lack of it on the Prelude makes it lose a lot of appeal. The paddle shifters are... something... I guess. But lord I hope they improved the fake manual gears over the system they had in the CVT CR-Z, because I test drove one and using the paddle shifters felt more like making a timid suggestion than shifting gears.
If it isn't supposed to be for enthusiasts, then why put the Type R front suspension in it? Just make it a Civic Hybrid coupe and sell it for a more reasonable price. The brakes and suspension seem to be what Honda is using to justify the price premium, and it isn't worth it over the Civic Hybrid, and especially not over the Civic Hatch Hybrid.
because they can make more money on it, that’s it. if they can put nicer suspension on it to jack the price up to increase profit margin, they can and will. that’s business 101.
Your average person hasn't got a clue what makes suspension sporty, nor do they actually care.
If you're right and their target audience isn't enthusiasts, there was no reason to use sporty suspension or brakes.
They don't need to put bigger brakes on it to increase prices, given their audience wouldn't know the difference. They could have just made it more expensive and left it.
More likely than not the new Prelude was butchered through years of competing visions from management and ended up a mess that has no clear audience. Hence it being dead on arrival.
Then non enthusiasts are not the target demographic...
It would be an asinine business decision to design a product in such a way that it includes elements that the target audience doesn't notice or care for, while also forcing you to increase costs.
non enthusiasts are the target demographic. adding sporty parts does not change that fact. it probably makes financial sense for Honda to add those sporty parts. what part of that doesn’t register?
How does it make financial sense for Honda to add components that the target audience doesn't care for, know about, or need?
All that does is force Honda to increase costs, which obviously isn't a good idea lol.
idfk i’m not honda. id be surprised if the decision to include upgrade suspension and brakes made it past the bean counters without them working out the math.
You shouldn't be surprised. Corporations frequently make poor financial decisions. Case and point, this new Prelude.
Your blind faith in a corporation is bizarre.
yes corporations make stupid decisions all the time, and no i don’t have blind faith in honda. as i said, id be very surprised if an expensive part/set of parts managed to sneak by the finance department without their being a financial justification.
Then why call it a Prelude? Its just like the Mitsubishi Eclipse. Once upon a time it was a nice sports coupe with decent performance. Just like to old Prelude. Now its a crossover. Performance is no longer a priority. Just like the Prelude.
IMO they should have done one of two things. Option 1) Keep the Prelude name but make it a 2 door version of the Civic Type R. 2) Name it something other than a Prelude like "Insight Type R". The Insight name would better relate to the hybrid configuration. What Honda did is damage whatever name recognition they had with the Prelude. Just like the Eclipse.
Because it helps sell them, that’s why they called it the Prelude. The name has cultural cache. That’s it. My ultimate point is that Honda isn’t aiming to sell the Prelude at auto enthusiasts.
It’s a sports car for people who don’t want a sports car.
Meaning, it has a fun shape, it’s a two-door, it has a good suspension and big brakes, but at the same time, it has a comfortable, well appointed, somewhat luxurious interior, it gets good gas mileage, it’s a hatchback with decent cargo space for its size, it’s easy to get in and out of, and it’s super easy to drive. It’s practical.
It’s probably for people who owned the original Preludes, are nostalgic for them and have disposable income, but are now in their 60s and 70s and don’t want to wedge themselves into a low-slung car with a manual, a deafening exhaust, and 500 hp.
Thanks. I’ve always been from the “it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow” school, so honestly, the new Prelude is kind of attractive to me. (And I *did* own a last-gen Prelude.)
I’ve had some pretty quick cars over the years, (I had a lightly modified E500 wagon that would pull 0-60 in about 5 seconds and sounded like a stock car) but to this day, the most fun car I ever had was the original series one Integra. It did everything well and nothing badly, and it was as reliable as the sunrise.
My dad has a 2014 Honda Accord with a manual that he’s put on a ton of miles on and loves it because he finds it fun and practical. He also has a Vette, and an MDX.
He’s very interested in the Prelude as it’s another car he can get in a manual that will be fun to drive. He’s not trying to go fastest, or have the latest tech, he just wants to enjoy the drive to the grocery store.
>Aimed at people who were buying Toyota Solaras or VW CCs
So nobody? Sales for both those models weren’t great to start with and fell into the abyss after just a few years. The couple people who wanted them got them and then it was over.
Keep in mind this costs the same as a 230i. I’m a big BMW hater but Honda needed to bring more to the table for that price.
The problem is not that isn't powerful. It's is not luxurious enough to justify its pricing positioning, where you can get cars that are \*both\* more upscale and faster.
A car does not have to be over-powered to be an enthusiat car. But here we are in an era bros who don't have 1000hp builds feel like they can't show their face on social media.
The point of a Prelude is to extract is handling dynamics for maximum effect, connection, and having a good time behind the wheel.
Yes it's spendy. Yes it's equipped for today's AT driver. But it is also eqipped with potential. If the pilot can't tap that potential, they probably do need the hanidcap of one of those 1000hp builds.
>The point of a Prelude is to extract is handling dynamics for maximum effect, connection, and having a good time behind the wheel.
Sounds like a Civic Si
This is the beginning of the description on Honda's website for the prelude:
"fun-to-drive hybrid sport coupe"
Fun to drive can be interpreted different ways. Hybrid, is self explanatory. Sport, well typically means at least above average performance. And coupes are typically performance oriented.
So by their own description, 5 out of 6 words they use to describe it invoke the idea of above average performance.
This may have something to do with it.
that is your interpretation of that. my interpretation is “this is a car that is fun to drive and sporty”. if they had use more words along the line of sporty, performance, sports, etc then id get what your saying. but i really don’t think that means anything more than “this is a fun to drive car”
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