Cars are just getting heavier, more complicated, more expensive to repair and maintain, more expensive to purchase, less engaging to drive. The average car might be a bit faster and more capable than they use to be but I don't think that means much. There are a lot of great cars being made today but I don't think that will be the case for long with regulations and the push for electrification
Performance has not peaked but driver involvement and.control has.
I’ll take the older slower more visceral car everyday over the new stuff with computers that control almost everything.
Peak car is when we can get Cayman GTS performance for \~50k, these $250k+ cars are more of a proof of concept to me, and that interests no one but kids on tiktok or e-commerce course sellers nowadays
That's what I'm saying, we can get that experience right now. We're living in the post peak car era because we can get a car that fulfills those requirements plus some for less than $50k and the choice spans decades.
+1 this
it's fun to go much faster but I hardly ever have the opportunity to do it. I noticed now even when I blast out of a intersection or an on ramp I'm not actually close to "flooring it".
One can rather thoroughly annihilate a Cayman for about £50,000, either by buying second-hand or, if one is feeling especially ambitious (or foolish), by building one oneself.
We rather peaked as a civilisation in the mid-to-late 2000s, car-wise. It’s been a steady decline ever since.
And really: experience trumps outright pace.
Peak car (for allround use) was around the turn of the millenium, or just prior. Decent safety/usability, no common mis-engineering (bloat, poor visibility, excessive weight) but not overcomplicated yet and few lifespan-limitation-issues.
In terms of comfort, reliability, safety, and performance, probably not. In terms of feel, sound, driver engagement, and daily fun, probably. Nothing today gives you the feedback and feel of old cars. For example, my 964 is light, has fantastic steering, gives a ton of feedback through the steering wheel brakes and chassis, and is the most fun car I have to own. Is it fast? No. Can it perform as a well as modern cars? No. Is there anything I’d rather take on a fun mountain or canyon drive? No
Now that doesn’t mean I don’t also want a modern car. I have a Modern performance car that is also pretty nice. I also have comfortable modern SUVs for hauling kids and living daily life. Modern cars are great at what they do. But they don’t maximize fun like old sports cars do
From a performance non track perspective I feel like 12 second quarters and 4 second 0-60s pretty much maximized actual daily usability.
I bought a new ZL1 in 22 and can't use 30% of its power on the roads around here, it's total overkill. That being said, I wouldn't have it any other way and I'm glad I'm alive to enjoy it.
I tried a Model S Plaid (9s) and it was perfectly usable for daily. There’s less time spent accelerating, but when you do there’s a visceral feeling that you don’t get in much slower cars.
The thrill of 0-60 times stops after a while. That’s why people keep wanting faster cars. The excitement comes from wanting to play with the car. Shift gears, listen to the engine/exhaust… that’s what a visceral experience is. Fast cars will always exist. There will always somehow be faster cars. But after a while, once the party trick loses its luster, you are left to enjoy the whole package. If the whole package doesn’t offer excitement, then it’s just a one trick pony.
A Viper is fast but it’s also exhilarating to drive. They’re scary cars. It feels like it wants to kill you. And that’s why it’s so amazing. It can be slower than a Model S and still be more fun to drive because it makes you work for it.
I barely feel any thrill from acceleration. Same for the gears and engine/exhaust. After a while it all starts to feel mundane.
Was speaking more to the sensation. That part never goes away for me. It would be nice to have my guts temporarily rearranged after a boring day at the office.
Perhaps that is an ev, but with my viper at 4.5 seconds its floor it. 5 seconds if I want to push the speed limit and now I am in 6th gear turning 1700rpm. I want to hear the engine. I want to shift gears. My 5-6 seconds cars are more fun for that reason alone. Modern stuff sub 3 seconds is just laughable to me. An utterly pointless pissing contest.
No. Peak car will be when you have a 250 hp, ultra lightweight electric motor at each wheel. That, with improvements in tire technology will allow a $50k car to outperform a GT3RS on track. Hate EVs in their current form, I do as well. But eventually, they will be the peak of performance.
This feels similar to how everyone kept asking if *this* N/A V12 would be the last one ever made… And we keep getting more cars with big N/A V12s in them lol. The car industry will keep churning, that’s an inevitability.
From a fun perspective we have passed it. Very few new cars give any road or steering feel. It's all just a numb boring experience. Too many annoying nannies complaining and too many screens.
Alas, not without getting to know you, your judgement, and your driving skill. That said, the small block Cobras really are an absolute joy. The light nimble handling everyone loves with stuff like an Elan or an NA miata, but with enough power to pass most modern cars with ease, and yet also the ability to cruise long distances at high speeds and modest rpm as that lovely V8 rumble passes the time on the open road.
I don’t think so. Hybrid tech in supercars is still in its infancy, and that’s likely the future even though they don’t really need it (low volume and impact). I think we could have peaked design wise 8-6 years ago, but I think we could reach another peak once buttons come back, and design is always going to have many peaks anyway.
> 348 ts, Gallardo 5.0 manual, Taycan CT TS, 996 TT ma
> I thought that would be the case each time I bought a new car, as it surpassed the previous.
What modern ICE cars do you own? It looks like you don't have a single one from the past 20 years.
Peak is relative to what you want out of a car. Modern cars are peak in terms of being a useable appliance. In terms of driving experience they are not. Part of that is regulation. Noise regulations and emissions really gut the fun. Electric steering feels dead relative to hydraulic and manual. Modern cars are also plush insulated experiences. Cool if you need to get from point a to b, but as a means of joy? hard pass.
>In terms of driving experience they are not.
That's a bit of a lazy generalisation based off personal preference. But anyway, this is reddit, and you're right.
Manual gearbox, rear wheel drive and no power steering. Otherwise, no fun to be had.
If your idea of fun is a computerized, isolated, noiseless 4k+ lb lead sled thats capabilities far exceed what can be experienced on a public road than good for you. For those of us living in the real world and not pretending we sre taking daily trips to a racetrack its boring. 600+ hp that i get to experience for 3 seconds at a time while it pumps fake engine noise through the speakers doesn't rustle my Jimmy's.
Fun comes in many flavours.
My '68 Seat 850 Especial with a 849cc 47hp engine and 4 forward gears is an absolute blast to drive.
But so is my Taycan Turbo S.
Old cars are fun, new cars can be too. Denying that the latter is even a possibility is obnoxious sectarianism.
You can have fun in a rental spec charger. Does not make it a fun car compared to others. Does not make it desirable.
Short of the start of the malaise era you don't see these takes that new cars are a step back in terms of fun compared to the past. No one is arguing that new ones aren't more capable. No one os arguing that objectively they are superior. Subjectively they are dogshit experiences and no amount of mouth breathing on your part is going to change that.
Go rub one out in your Taycan. Its not hurting me. It just holds zero interest much like your opinions.
> Better than the 30 years old ones, but worst than the 10 years old ones.
> There’s no “peak car”. Every generation is objectively better than the previous.
Your garage doesn't reflect that.
I am aware, but I am unsure about what's that got to do with the topic.
My only point was: it's never downhill from anywhere. It's all marketing. Cars always improve, despite of the hype machine saying the opposite.
yeah, it just doesn't show in the numbers nowadays. the 296 alone probably clears all my favorites from the decade prior, short of maybe the r8
& on the low end the nd3, elantra n, fl5 all improve, the new gti is fantastic, civic hybrid is surprisingly good fun, & we have new paradigms e.x ioniq 5n
That’s because for 2-3 decades the progression forward was natural and relatable but for the past 5 years, there’s a been a jarring shift in the paradigm. Sure there of some examples to the contrary that still exist but the cracks are forming and nothing lasts forever.
Unless capability is what satisfies you. To give an example, Derek Tam-Scott who does the Carmudgeon podcast with Cammisa prefers old cars because their characteristics weren't *designed*. They were what they were due to available technology and the link between the constraints and the car's behavior is fairly transparent. By contrast, what you experience in most modern vehicles is largely a curated experience the manufacturer wanted the car to impart on you (broadly speaking).
I respect Derek's opinion but feel very differently. When I drive an old car it just makes me appreciate how far engineering has come. Nothing is perfect because that's not how our world works, but I'd take the set of compromises that comes with a modern car over those of an old car.
i personally feel like outright performance only matters if you're chasing lap times; i follow several professional race car drivers on YouTube, they all seem to prefer older stuff when it comes to personal rides – everyone is different of course, but for me as well new cars just feel numb and disconnected from the actual driving experience.
That's why I got a GR Corolla. Mechanical water pump, mechanical handbrake, manual transmission, air to air intercooler, simple suspension. All while getting modern comforts such as radar cruise control, Android Auto and smart key system.
Vacuum operated wastegate, oil pressure driven VVT, cast-in liners rather than coatings, beefy suspension with easily serviceable ball joints and bushings, regular factory service interval for all driveline fluids, sensible oil change interval, cheap bumper covers, physical interior controls, etc.
The car is basically all old stuff in a new safe chassis with just the right modern tech. You know, what r/cars claims they want.
I recently found out they were still making the Ford Thunderbird in in the 90s. I have no recollection of it. I thought the relaunch in 2002 was reusing a name from 30 years before, not 5 years.
Anyway, I looked up a pic of it and my god there were so many ugly cars in the 80s and 90s.
Yeah, relative to the 90s it was fine. But that just hammers home my original point...the 90s were generally awful for car looks. The potato/jelly bean inspired Ford Taurus will forever live in my head rent free.
Not until Porsche develops a neural link that plugs straight into the drivers brain when they buckle up and amplifies their feelings of smug satisfaction as they putt their GT3 RS down the road for its monthly outing out of its positive pressure bubble to the local cars and coffee.
Neural link orgasms are an additional 10k dollars when you option the weissach package.
There will be enthusiast EVs. They will be different from ICE performance. The manufacturers are focused on where they can make money, and then scale. Sports cars are the last thing on the list in necessity, Hyundai had a few solid options out before they did sport trims, and there’s not yet a sports car for the masses.
The repeat complaints of this stuff has been happening since the Model S came out, like 15 years ago. This is incredibly lazy journalism, engagement bait, and a symptom of the way websites like top gear have to make money these days.
This piece, translated to early 1900’s: ‘horses are over. Forever. There will never be another horse. Gas engines are dumb machines that you have to go to a gas station to refuel which is so inconvenient. You will never get the same visceral feeling of a galloping horse with an internal combustion engine.
Have we seen the last of horse enthusiasm? The raw strength of the Clydesdale, the speed of the stallion?’
It does seem like regulations which require cars to be annoying and that they disregard owner preferences impose a pretty start before-and-after line in time. This coupled with the increasing disparity between rich and poor and the advancing consolidation of consumer spending to the highest income earners only presages nothing good for the future of driver's cars available to the average working stiff. I feel like 20 years from now if it's not an appliance it'll either be driving itself or cost the equivalent of 20 years wages.
TL;DR:
>So, we’re hurtling towards mediocrity? I don’t think so. That’s way too dramatic, and unfair on some of the new cars available.
Betteridge's Law strikes again.
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