Pilots of Canada, tell me if this is a good idea or not.
Posted by elementmg@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 61 comments
I’m 34, living in Vancouver Canada. Currently a software developer but I’m getting sick of the constant threat of offshoring and AI taking our work. I’m watching in real time as my colleagues get cut and cannot find any work for over a year, meanwhile all companies are hiring like mad in India to replace us.
I do not have a degree, and I current make $85,000/y
I’ve always been into flying, my dad was a flight attendant and I am obsessed with flight sim games. So I’ve been thinking… maybe I’ll just take my savings and become a pilot instead. At 34 years old, is this a bad idea?
I know pay won’t be amazing at first, but what would I realistically be looking at for a timeline of training, poor jobs, and eventually better pay? Especially in Canada.
Thanks
theexodus326@reddit
Keep your current job, flight train on the side, and when you're licensed cut over to aviation. If you can study ground school daily and fly a couple of times per week you should be good to go in a couple of years.
I'm in a similar situation. I've been flying on the side and before my check rides I book a week or two of vacation off work to focus on studying and flying.
Be prepared to take a decent pay cut for a couple of years once you change careers. You'll have to work your way up the ladder to get back to where you are financially.
elementmg@reddit (OP)
What kind of pay will you expect when cutting over? And where are you located?
CorporalCrash@reddit
Expect around half of what you currently make as an entry level commercial pilot in Canada.
Wingmaniac@reddit
And that's if the industry is not in a downswing. Once upon a time you had to move to remote locations and do grunt work to get your foot in the door. Or instruct for pennies.
CorporalCrash@reddit
Still the case today, the search has been brutal lol
Brave_Recognition798@reddit
Any luck?
CorporalCrash@reddit
Not yet! Got one offer up north which I turned down as the commuting expectations weren't something I'm in a position to be able to do at the moment. Trying my hand at instructing now
Brave_Recognition798@reddit
Fingers crossed for you!
F1shermanIvan@reddit
I’d say the industry is in a rut right now.
BathtubInTheSky@reddit
Instructing/ramp jobs prolly 25-35k. Instructing can be local but in a shit industry you might have to move, ramp would be up north. You'll definitely have to do one of these for a year or more before you get a job below
Entry fo 45-55k. Couple positions out of yvr, otherwise you're moving up north or are rotational. Captains 80-90k starting, sometimes quick upgrades if u have time.
Regional fo 70k base, more if you pick up.
Cougarb@reddit
I comment this often for anyone in BC. But something to look into is BC is one of the few places in the world it’s relatively easy to get a low time job if:
You can do a lot of your PPL/CPL time building on floats and get up to easily 50 hours float by the time your CSES is completed. Don’t even need multi/IFR right away.
Spend a few years building time of floats before going for airlines. It’ll be a lot more fun that instructing and you’re becoming a way better pilot than someone teaching PPL steep turns 3 times a day.
It’s a lot a bit more resilient in terms of AI/future proofing imo than some airline jobs. With the opportunity to go into wildfire instead which will only grow in demand.
Something to look into. Pay will be shit you’re right. But if you’re looking for a bit of adventure take advantage of one of the few things we have over the boys down with. Wayyyyy easier to get a bush job up here than a lower 48 pilot trying to go to Alaska.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit
Who is renting something on floats to someone with a SPP
Cougarb@reddit
Airhartt in Kelowna lets you do most of your PPL/CPL on floats
elementmg@reddit (OP)
What kind of pay would I be looking at for those kind of jobs? I’m used to low pay so it’s not like I live out of my league, I still have roommates haha
Cougarb@reddit
Dockhand is about 20-25/hr but looking around 50 hours a week minimum during summer.
First year pilot isn’t much better.
But once you get some experience Havour air pays $65/crhr with a minimum 40/week. Easy 100k with bases in Vancouver/victoria. Vancouver is one of the few places on earth it’s possible to make 100k on floats and be home every night.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
He’s not going to get a flying hog at harbour air until he goes somewhere to get at least 500 hours
Cougarb@reddit
Yea I said “once you get some experience”.
Although they do have a dock to right seat program I’ve heard nothing but bad things and long wait times about it
SteakAndAle@reddit
Any tips on good places to look for that dock to right seat pathway? Either specific companies or general areas. I was planning on doing a road trip in the spring, if I can get my CPL finished in time. BC or YK ideally but I'll go east if i have to!
Cougarb@reddit
Ontario is the easiest to get hired. Everyone wants to go out west so it’s a lot more competitive. Hiring season is Jan/feb/March so if you’re gonna apply after that you’re gonna hear mostly crickets.
If you have blue collar experience or can turn a wrench definitely put that on your resume. Also email them directly. I used Gemini/chatgpt to help me find places that are harder to find and won’t be on PCC. I must of applied to 200+ places and gotten maybe 7 responses, (I’m also a Journeyman welder so that was my selling point) and around 4 interviews for entry/dockhand positions. 2 offers out of that.
If your not done CPL yet try to pad your resume for next year and apply early and often
SteakAndAle@reddit
Thanks for the advice!
damn, I was hoping March/Apr would be a good time to look - guess I'll be missing the boat this year. Working the dock for Harbour Air over the summer in Van was one backup plan if that happens, but given what you mentioned in another comment sounds like it's unlikely to lead to anything?
nothing professional, but before I pulled the trigger on CPL I was looking after an amateur-built with my buddies - didn't do much more than oil, filters & part swaps but hoping it shows I am wrench-friendly. Outdoorsy guy so maybe that'll be worth a few cents to the hunting/fishing outfits.
Did you visit places in person or just apply via emails?
Cougarb@reddit
Doesn’t hurt to try but the big wave is now. Lots of people drop out and what not so they still maybe be straggler jobs around. But if you hear nothing back that’s probably one of the reasons why.
I just applied via email personally, although in person would definitely get a leg up if you’re able to do it.
Yes I would definitely mention that experience and well as the outdoorsmen is worth a mention. Lots of these places is more of a character hire than anything and nobody from a small town in Ontario cares much for a city slicker who only wants to fly jets. They want to be able to go for a beer after work and have a normal conversation with you sort of thing.
SteakAndAle@reddit
My fault for trying to do flight training in the PNW in winter, hehe.
Honestly I just want to write "I don't want to fly for the airlines" and "I come from a big city but I'm not soft" in big letters at the top of my CV :D
Cougarb@reddit
That’s pretty much half the battle haha
SteakAndAle@reddit
One last question and I'll leave you in peace: are the operators up North similarly seasonal, or is there a better shot of finding a low time/ramp to pilot job later I'm the year? I don't mind freezing my butt off on Yellowknife over the winter if it means not having to wait a whole extra year...
Cougarb@reddit
Like I said you’re welcome to try, and out of the hundreds of operators I bet a couple would still be looking. But most hire in late winter so in spring they can train and summer they are ready for peak season. But it will probably be similar.
SteakAndAle@reddit
Cheers. Thanks for all the advice!
Cougarb@reddit
No problem. A hidden gem for you, is you can look up AOC via the transport Canada website and also sort by airplane. So you can see every single operator in Canada that has the plane you want to apply to fly. Super cool tool we have.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
Yeah of course. It’s probably one of the most coveted float jobs
gromm93@reddit
Generally good advice, but the trick is that being an instructor does build genuinely useful skills, especially at the captain level. You might not be a great pilot by the time you're finished instructing, but you could/might/should be a great teacher. Which is absolutely necessary for that step to captain.
Cougarb@reddit
That’s fair. And to your credit non-CFI pilot tends to struggle in the instrument training at the airline level. They may be very good pilots but can become a bit of cowboys flying in the bush and loose skill on the airlaw and IFR side of things since the bush is mostly day VFR.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
Also you will need to move to get a bush job .
elementmg@reddit (OP)
Eh I figured that’s probably the case. That’s my least favourite aspect of going through with this. It’s a huge consideration.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
Then don’t do it. I had lots of friends think they will just stay in Vancouver and they will get a job. They are not flying anymore
Brave_Recognition798@reddit
How far along did they get?
elementmg@reddit (OP)
I’ll keep that at the forefront of my mind. Maybe will go for PPL and see if I love flying enough to move to the bush.
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
Good plan
flyingcanuck@reddit
It depends on what your end goal is but it's not going to be an easy road no matter which route you choose: regional, mainline, corporate etc
I think a lot of people on 2nd and 3rd careers see aviation as a quick turn, it's simply not. Especially with zero training North of 30.
A PPL will take you a year+ if you're keeping a job while flying. Then CPL, multi and IFR. Your training alone is going to be 2-3 years. $0 earned. $100k spent.
Then it'll be up to you to decide how far you're willing to move away from Vancouver to get the first job.
COVID shifted pay for the better at the smaller companies but the movement has slowed down too. Realistically, I would say you're probably 7-10 years away from making $85k/yr and that's if a lot of things go your way.
Say you want to get to the airlines, let's give you a 10yr horizon for that. Now you're 44, your captains will be your age with 15yrs at the company. So you'll never see an upgrade and you'll have to go to 65 if you want to try maximizing the benefits of the pension plans.
It sucks that you're in the position you're in. I have friends who are in similar predicaments but becoming a commercial pilot is it's own can of worms.
Of course, ymmv and if you do choose to go through with it, I wish you nothing but the best!
Given__To__Fly@reddit
This is a bit of a bleak outlook, and I don't 100% agree with it. The first 500 hours will be the hardest to make, but if it does take 3 years to get all your ratings (that's fairly realistic, especially if you're still working) I think 7-10 years to make 85k again is a bit long. If you can get a job even instructing you'll make decent PIC hours, and it's not gonna take 4-7 years of that to see an actual flying job. Instructors at my school are getting out to flying jobs in a little over a year, and the ones who have been out for 2 are getting Encore and Jazz jobs. One guy I know just got on with Encore and had just over a year instructing at Mitchison. Thay's quicker than most get in, but again , not even close to 7-10 years from making 85k.
Also, if he gets a right seat airline gig even at 44, he has 21 years of working left. To think you won't get an upgrade in over 20 years is crazy.
Take what I say with a grain of salt OP, but take the commenter above mine with one too. In my opinion, the scenario they laid out is worse than worse case.
flyingcanuck@reddit
Sure it's a bleaker than average outlook but I don't think it's unrealistic.
In my opinion, past examples don't indicate any forward looking prospects of jobs. I'm working with guys and gals who got the accelerated route to the airlines. It's awesome to see. But I've also worked with guys who took 5x longer to get there.
One of the big indicators I'm trying to take into account is the economy. We're seeing historic lows in travel to the US, which is a big market for us. I believe the airlines will (and actively are) pivoting but it's going to take a long time to see that demand. Along with delays in aircraft orders and deliveries, I don't see anything near what we saw 3 years ago for a while.
OP could get very lucky and ride a new wave as soon as they've finished training and that would be great but I'm trying to set the bar at a reasonable level.
Sure you can become an instructor (find me a flight school in the lower mainland that's hiring) but pic hours in the circuit don't pay the bills. Do that for 3 years at $40-50k and possibly get a job in the prairies or out east in the right seat of a King Air? You're maybe coming up to 80k depending on the outfit.
But then you're leaving that to go to jazz or Encore (if jazz is even around at that time) and back down in pay until you go left seat.
From 0hrs to $85,000/yr is not that simple of a road. Especially in Canada.
Given__To__Fly@reddit
I absolutely agree it's not a simple road. I'm dealing with that myself at the moment. I'm in a very similar situation as OP. Started flight training at 35. Left a 120k+ job for it. I'm almost done all my ratings, and am about 6-10 months out from looking for a job. My estimation is 3-5 years before I start making (relatively) good (70k+) money after I'm done flight training. I'll grind though. I'll go wherever I have to go, work whatever job I have to work, and as much as I have to.
One thing I'll say to OP: not wanting to move from the lower mainland will absolutely make your process harder and longer. I'm looking at everywhere in the entire country and the outcome for my first job is....very bleak. I'm actually quite concerned about it. Restricting yourself to a single area of a single province will compund this issue greatly.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit
I'm in a similar boat to you, unless you're willing to ramp for 2+ years making min wage there are no jobs right now
kaoandy1125@reddit
Nah…I found my first job 2 days after CPL flight test, got hired by teal 4.5 years after CPL in 2023, best hiring wave ever right? That’s still 5 years to make 85k. I really don’t think 7-10 years before making 85k is worse than worst case scenario…
You mention instructors getting hired by encore/jazz/porter, but what if that’s not happening? For a very long time instructors had to go fly 703/4 for some time in buttfuck nowhere, before getting hired by the regionals. It seems we’re trending that way again
gromm93@reddit
As a realist, I'd rather see a bleak outlook and be pleasantly surprised, than take a sunny outlook and be bitterly disappointed.
This is a major life change and decision here. It should not be taken so optimistically. At the same time, those who make it, say it was the best decision ever.
SwimmingAd4187@reddit
Never see an upgrade in 20 years? Highly doubt that
thanksforallthetrees@reddit
2-3 years of 150,000$ of training then 5 years of 30-40,000$ per year if you can find a job, and expect to be on the ramp, and move a couple times before landing a flying job in a remote town. In 10 years you could be at Jazz. Have a look at their pay scales and bases.
TraditionalAd6977@reddit
Why not Air Canada . A captain there is on 350k. Would you not want to start low at Air Canada then work up for a decade
thanksforallthetrees@reddit
Are you in the industry? You don’t “start at Air Canada.” You start by loading bags, shovelling snow and working in a warehouse in Winnipeg for a year at best. And the captains at 350k has been at air Canada for 20+ years, and definitely is on a different contract than the new guys. Source: my dad is a retired 777 AC captain who did 42 years at AC. I am a 787 FO in Japan, and went through the whole Canadian experience, groceries drunks and fried chicken in the north, medevacs, jazz, LCC, then escaped as a expat contract.
First-Length6323@reddit
Meh. Its an okay idea.
Your timeline depends on how fast you complete training to instructor rating, then your luck getting the first instructor job followed by first multi job followed by a regional followed by air canada.
I estimate 7-10 years to get back to 90-100k per year and 12ish years to be back in Vancouver under big red
oh_helloghost@reddit
Hi there, regional pilot in Canada here who also made a career change. I got to the airlines at 36.
34 isn’t too old to be an airline pilot, but it you should definitely set clear expectations for yourself.
Realistically- 2 years of flight training, minimum. And given that you have a job, you should probably try and work and train at the same time. So maybe budget 3 years.
Then you are going to have to become an instructor or move to find a ramp-to-right-seat kinda job. Plan on 2 more years doing that. The pay is going to be absolutely terrible, full poverty wage. I earned less than $30,000 for the ~two years I instructed and could only afford to get by with using savings.
Once you get somewhere between ~1000hrs and ATPL minimums, Encore, Porter and Jazz will start considering applications.
With all that in mind - you’ll likely be 38/39 starting a regional gig earning ~$65,000.
There’s absolutely nothing stopping you from making a career at the regionals, the pay and schedule will be tough for a while though.
Also, it’ll be a big downgrade in QOL from what you are currently used to (I had an office job prior too). You’ll be working early mornings and late nights, weekends, holidays etc.
If you are going to make this change for security, absolutely don’t do that.
Before you make any big decisions, invest a little some time and money into the idea. Go get a Cat 1 medical, go and do a discovery flight. If you love it - keep your job and go rattle out your PPL. If when you’ve done that, you still feel like this is the way forward then by all means, go for it. Lots of people fall at these first hurdles though because they look at the mountain ahead and never just start.
Good luck! Happy to answer any questions.
elementmg@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the info. That’s really helpful!
SteakAndAle@reddit
Hello, I am your exact demographic ;) If you decide to pull the trigger on starting your PPL, visit every flight school you can before committing. Flight schools the world over are very hit and miss, but the lower mainland in particular has a reputation for schools designed to extract maximum $ from international students...
TheIronPilot@reddit
Not a Canadian pilot so I can’t speak to the job side of things up there. However, you are in a fantastic position to transition careers. You have a significant amount of money saved and a good paying job. Don’t abandon either of those. Continue working, and start studying and flying. If you can fly 2-3 times a week and keep that going, your skills will develop quickly and not suffer from going any period of time without flying. When you are new and learning, those skills rust quickly with any amount of time off. Study on your own time, ground school can cost a significant sum if you are making your instructor teach you everything. Find out what the next ground lesson will be about ahead of time, study it on your own, show up prepared. Get through your private license and if you still want to do it as a career then continue. If not, you’re a licensed pilot and that’s cool! Dedicate as much time as you are willing and able to while still working and you will get there while not emptying your savings or going into debt which will be a huge boon. As you already know, those early commercial flying jobs do not pay well. If you’ve got some savings to keep you going comfortably you’ll be able to weather it much easier. Whatever you decide to do, good luck!
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
How much do you have saved? You will keep your current job right?
elementmg@reddit (OP)
Planning to keep the current job for sure, i have around $200k saved
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
That’s a good start. Go for it. Will take about 5 years before you get a decent job id say
elementmg@reddit (OP)
In those 5 years, on average what would I be looking at for pay in BC?
Commercial_Meat_8522@reddit
It will be 5 years until you get paid
CSGOTRICK@reddit
I’d say get your private at least first before you jump in head first
elementmg@reddit (OP)
Yeah that makes sense
Sk1900d@reddit
Assuming the big two (AC or WJ) are your goal, after you’re done with the training you can probably expect to make what you make now in 4-5 years. If you do get to AC you’ll be likely based out of YYZ at first which means renting or getting a crashed so the money you make will likely be spent or surviving in Toronto. If you go the medevac route you might become a captain sooner making more than that. But a lot of those jobs are rotational.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’m 34, living in Vancouver Canada. Currently a software developer but I’m getting sick of the constant threat of offshoring and AI taking our work. I’m watching in real time as my colleagues get cut and cannot find any work for over a year, meanwhile all companies are hiring like mad in India to replace us.
I do not have a degree, and I current make $85,000/y
I’ve always been into flying, my dad was a flight attendant and I am obsessed with flight sim games. So I’ve been thinking… maybe I’ll just take my savings and become a pilot instead. At 34 years old, is this a bad idea?
I know pay won’t be amazing at first, but what would I realistically be looking at for a timeline of training, poor jobs, and eventually better pay? Especially in Canada.
Thanks
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