What are your thoughts on the future of Wayland compared to X11 for Linux users?

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Altruistic_Key_1733@reddit

Wayland is waaay faster on my machine than X11. I have problems with the mouse staying in the game screen sometimes, and the other day I could not drag and drop an image into my group chat on Discord. So yes there are a few problems here and there, but for the most part I am super happy with it. I also had a problem where I could not control the brightness of my laptop screen, but I did a little bit of LLM reconnaissance and found the fix.

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Genoskill@reddit

Please do not use LLMs, they are unethical. Thank you.

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Altruistic_Key_1733@reddit

ok bro

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Fit-Page-6206FUMA@reddit

I tried to jump from Hyprland from qtile (X11) but so far, I got frustrated to make it work like my qtile config that I went back to X11. For the few days I tried it, it was smooth and nice though. That said, I got the itch and want to try it again mostly because I learned Niri exists. But I don't play videogames, or have a very powerful computer, my NUC is used mostly as an internet machine and as an Emacs machine.

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Munalo5@reddit

I've migrated to Wayland but see it as a step backwards. I'd stay with x11 if KDE wasn't making the switch necessary.

I just have a single (huge) monitor; no multiple monitors. I dont need the "security" they say Wayland provides.

I notice no difference in performance and do not understand why there is a rush to convert.

X11 didn't need to be phased out and Wayland is a poor upgrade.

I do realize that I am biased.Currently, there isn't a functioning On Screen Keyboard that works on desktop computers compatible with Wayland.

Just because it is new doesn't make it better.

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Thanatiel@reddit

I'm trying Wayland regularly and I've always rolled back to Xorg (and now Xlibre)

I'm all for progress but right no Wayland isn't it.

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

Maintaining x11 stuff is tech debt which is why the developers want it gone, I think on screen keyboards and remote desktop are some of kde's top priorities right now

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metux-its@reddit

Which tech debt exactly? Have you ever actually touch the real code or just babbling ?

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

Literally the entire thing is tech debt by definition because the only thing you need to do to render an image to the screen is use the drm api

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metux-its@reddit

And that's where you're wrong. Rendering and presenting images is just a tiny part of the whole story.

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

No actually that's all that needs to happen

process libinput events

ipc for apps

present to the screen

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metux-its@reddit

There's a lot more, eg. displays bound clients-2-client communication, desktop integration, window positioning, network transparency, input preprocessing, etc, etc.

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

displays bound

so binding to a network socket and an event loop? 15 lines of code

clinet to client communication

so ipc...

desktop integration

ipc

window positioning

one ipc call with coordinates, if you mean window management xorg doesn't do that by itself (fully)

network transparency

xorg's implementation is useless, the correct way to do it is something like this https://app.lizardbyte.dev/Sunshine

input preprocessing

wtf? I seriously hope xorg doesn't do this. This is udev and libinput's job.

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metux-its@reddit

so binding to a network socket and an event loop? 15 lines of code

Communication with others on the same display - whereever that might be. Even through firewalls, btw.

window positioning one ipc call with coordinates,

Which Wayland still doesn't have - after 15 years of development

if you mean window management xorg doesn't do that by itself

Exactly. Thats delegated to separate clients, that can be easily replaced at runtime. X11 can even run without it.

On Wayland thats all melted into the big monolithic display server.

network transparency xorg's implementation is useless,

Using it all the day.

input preprocessing wtf? I seriously hope xorg doesn't do this.

X11 alllows dedicated clients to do this. And thats they way how many accessibilty things are implemented.

This is udev and libinput's job.

Only on platforms that actually do have those. Haven't seen udev on NetBSD yet.

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

communications with others on the same display

What?

which wayland still doesnt have

nothing to do with x11/wayland, I don't want apps moving themselves and the compositor developers agree. It's not much code to make this work at all for both x11 and wayland clients if you really wanted it.

on wayland that's all monolithic

No its not. That's purely a choice that's up to the display server developer.

x11 allows clients to do this

So like libei basically

no udev

Yeah it doesn't really do much it's only needed for hwdb overrides or something like that for a few broken devices

I honestly just don't understand why you think the xorg server is worth keeping when the code required to fix its problems vastly exceeds what would be needed to implement a new display server with all your requirements

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metux-its@reddit

communications with others on the same display What?

whats so hard to understand here ?

nothing to do with x11/wayland, I don't want apps moving themselves and the compositor developers agree.

Some use cases need that. On Wayland there's just no way to do it.

It's not much code to make this work at all for both x11 and wayland clients if you really wanted it.

One would need to invent a new protocol and patch up all compositors to support it.

Yeah, again the usual answer of Wayland believers: one could just rewrite the whole thing to make XYZ. And the actual work always has to be done by others.

No its not. That's purely a choice that's up to the display server developer.

Wayland offers no way to do it. One has to extend the wayland protocol and write new display servers for that.

x11 allows clients to do this So like libei basically

ohah, yet another protocol over a different connection (of course local-only again). And not part of Wayland at all.

Yeah it doesn't really do much it's only needed for hwdb overrides or something like that for a few broken devices

Maybe, but thats yet another linux-only dependency.

X11 is OS agnostic and network transparent: it just doesn't matter on which platform (and which host) server and individual clients run on. Thats the whole point of it.

I honestly just don't understand why you think the xorg server is worth keeping

I'm not talking about Redhat's Xorg at all. Just about X11.

when the code required to fix its problems

Which problems exactly?

vastly exceeds what would be needed to implement a new display server with all your requirements

One elementary requirement is 100% compatibility with existing clients. And existing hardware (including those only running with proprietary drivers).

How much actual work do you do yourself on any Xserver code base ?

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

not part of wayland

Can you at least admit that it's fallacious to on one hand argue "wayland is too monolithic" then at the same time say wayland should include more things and not be extensible?

how much work do you do on xserver

None except for local patches I've made to xwayland-satellite, the only thing running on xorg on my computer is steam. I have fixed every issue I had with wayland.

x11 is os/hardware agnostic

Wayland wire spec is extremely generic, it literally uses fixed point arithmetic and everything and all the linux specific stuff is in separate protocols

what problems

On my computer I can use direct scanout and hdr and composition with extremely low latency. This is not possible on xorg. You will say it is but it factually is not supported without protocol extensions I know you haven't managed to find a hack to make it work on xlibre.

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metux-its@reddit

Can you at least admit that it's fallacious to on one hand argue "wayland is too monolithic" then at the same time say wayland should include more things and not be extensible?

Wayland is designed to put lots of different things, eg. window manager into the display server. That's officially stated since day one (yes, I've already been there back 1.5 decades ago when it all started). Monolithic.

how much work do you do on xserver

None except for local patches I've made to xwayland-satellite,

Aha. So how are you qualified to any serious judgement on the code, if you never even had a closer look at it ?

Wayland wire spec is extremely generic, it literally uses fixed point arithmetic and everything and all the linux specific stuff is in separate protocols

Formally, the DRM specific operations are put into the wl_drm extension, but still everything depends on it. The whole concept of Wayland is centered around the basic concepts of Linux DRM.

Sure, one could invent something else, but that would mean rewriting all the display servers and all the clients to use it.

On my computer I can use direct scanout and hdr and composition with extremely low latency.

I don't need composition at all. On X11 it's optional, thus also no need for "direct scanout" (aka bypassing the compositor).

This is not possible on xorg.

What exactly is not possible ?

Well, we don't have HDR - yet. Coming with next release. (personally, still have no need to even buy a HDR-capable display)

You will say it is but it factually is not supported without protocol extensions I know you haven't managed to find a hack to make it work on xlibre.

Wayland also doens't work without extensions (actually completely unusable without extensions).

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

I don't care. My setup actually works; xorg would not.

You did not answer my question, and you are being deliberately ignorant at this point by changing your stance to fit your argument. You claim libinput/libei not being part of wayland was bad and that the protocol being designed around extensions is bad but then say wayland is bad because its monolithic because most display servers combine the window manager and compositor.

You're completely ignoring that kde had a bunch of custom extensions that only worked if kwin was doing composition and window management, and gnome completely didn't work with custom wms/compositors.

Multiple wayland compositors outsource window management outside the compositor but you ignore that fact for convenience

You also criticize me for "not working on the xserver" but you have definitely not worked on a wayland compositor before otherwise you would've given up on xlibre already because it's a dead-end project. You will either reinvent wayland and dubious protocol extensions or end up with a bunch of hacks. Just recently I saw you were abusing drm overlay planes to get hdr working for mpv by bypassing the entirety of xorg. At some point you'll have to give up this insane level of cognitive dissonance.

I genuinely don't know if it's all for show or if you actually believe it all but it's actually absurd

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metux-its@reddit

I don't care. My setup actually works; xorg would not.

And I don't care about your setup. For my use cases, Wayland is just totally insufficient. So I don't use it. I'm using X11 instead.

No matter how much you try, you'll never convince me to switch to Wayland.

You did not answer my question,

Which question exactly ?

You claim libinput/libei not being part of wayland was bad

I didn't say that. But that design issue requires even more extra effort along the whole ecosystem to make it all work. And of course it's not at all network transparent (just like Wayland itself), which is a total KO criterium for me. Anything without network transparency is just not suitable for me. These are just my requirements.

and that the protocol being designed around extensions is bad

No, it's not. Neither in Wayland, nor in X11.

And indeed, if I could travel back in time and join the original X11 team (actually, already project athena), I'd do similar choices.

Just mentioned this because the Reddit Church of Wayland notoriously whining about X11 would only work well by it's various extensions - while ignoring that Wayland essentially is nothing but extensions.

but then say wayland is bad because its monolithic because most display servers combine the window manager and compositor.

Yes, Wayland offers no means for external window managers, thus display servers need to built them into a big monolith. Somebody currently tries to change that (congratulations for the great insight - after 17 years have passed) ... we'll see whether he succeeds in several years.

You're completely ignoring that kde had a bunch of custom extensions that only worked if kwin was doing composition and window management,

Yes. But those are only relevant to KDE at all. And they never tried to put them into the Xserver.

and gnome completely didn't work with custom wms/compositors.

Gnome used to work with external WMs or compositors, long ago. And that's btw one of the many reasons why so many people explicitly rule out using Gnome.

Multiple wayland compositors outsource window management outside the compositor but you ignore that fact for convenience

Somebody wrote an Wayland extension for that and patched up a few compositors. It's his own custom stuff. Whether or not that perhaps could become a standard, is left to see in several years.

You also criticize me for "not working on the xserver" but you have definitely not worked on a wayland compositor before otherwise

I have.

you would've given up on xlibre already because it's a dead-end project.

You still didn't understand why I'm using X11 and not Wayland.

You will either reinvent wayland and dubious protocol extensions

There's nothing in Wayland I have to "reinvent".

Just recently I saw you were abusing drm overlay planes to get hdr working for mpv by bypassing the entirety of xorg.

That wasn't me. And that's just an experiment to explore the best way to do it. The actual implementation will be pretty different.

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metux-its@reddit

So why do you use Wayland at all ? KDE still running fine on X11. The necessary parts are maintained by the SonicDE project

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Munalo5@reddit

KDE will be going to Wayland soon and I won't have a choice.

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metux-its@reddit

SonicDE is KDE on X11.

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

do not understand

That sums up your comment pretty much.

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Thanatiel@reddit

In theory, the concept is appealing.

In practice, your mileage may vary.

I try Wayland once or twice a year. I've tried again tonight. (I'm on Arch)

I'm working on multiple monitors, HD, SDR.

I've mostly tried a few games and compared performance with Xorg.

Two hours of sufferings to try to fix everything that wasn't working properly after the change (Steam for some reason, although sometimes it was working on first try after a reboot)

In the end, there is at least a 10% drop in performance with Wayland on my machine. (I've tried every option)

I couldn't make MangoHub work either (I've recompiled the last version myself, checked every support was on: no luck.

This is disappointing but I'll try again in six months or so, maybe a year.

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Armageddon_Bound@reddit

I don't give a shit, but I can say this much: I have several games that run like trash on Wayland, but run perfectly fine on X11.

Like, Windows 11 actually runs better on unsupported hardware, than the games on Wayland. So that's fun.

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ethertype@reddit

freerdp on wayland never got stable for me. Have not tried in quite a while. signal-desktop has been sketchy, works now.

And... I think that's it? Moving to Wayland gave me a compositor (Wayfire) with much more functionality than IceWM, and kitty on Wayland is any CLI-lover's wet dream. I never looked back.

The framing is wrong. It's not that Wayland is the future. It is that X11 is the past.

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MelioraXI@reddit

I'm still using X11 and DWM. I don't have fancy 4K monitors or need for fractal scaling and HDR. Since nothing is broken, I don't see a reason to switch to Wayland. Nor do I need the eye candy the kids seem to want with all these quickshells, hyprland, mangowc etc.

TLDR: "If it ain't broken why fix it".

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lucasrizzini@reddit

I used to think exactly like you. Same mindset, older hardware, no need for HDR or fractional scaling, mostly older games. X11 worked fine, so why change, right?

What changed my mind is that "not broken” doesn’t necessarily mean healthy long term. X11 isn’t really evolving anymore, it’s mostly in maintenance mode. Wayland isn’t about eye candy at all, it’s about architecture, security, and where the Linux ecosystem is actually moving.

In my case, the switch was smooth. Everything I cared about still works, but now I’m on the stack that’s actually moving forward, and that feels freaking good. So I get the “if it ain’t broken” mindset, I had it too.

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marrsd@reddit

X11 isn’t really evolving anymore, it’s mostly in maintenance mode

This is no longer be true. Xlibre has made 2 significant releases since it forked Xorg and both have been met with good feedback. We now have also have Phoenix, which is a modern rewrite of X11.

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MeDerpWasTaken@reddit

It's not likely Xlibre is going to packaged in any major distros anytime soon with how the developer's previous contributions have gone

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marrsd@reddit

Which has nothing to do with whether or not X11 is evolving. If distros choose to ignore active development then that's a separate issue

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metux-its@reddit

X11 isn’t really evolving anymore, it’s mostly in maintenance mode.

You should stop mixing up a display protocol with some particular implementation.

Redhat's Xorg is pretty dead, because they want it dead. But community based Xlibre is very much alive and offering more features.

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MelioraXI@reddit

In my case as a WM user, there are little wins with switch for the sake of switching. Until something breaks I'll stick to DWM. If I was a DE user maybe I would have a different perspective

Unless using Sway, most WM/compositors are smooth animations etc which is what I meant by eye candy. Obviously thru can he disabled but that's not really relevant to the point I'm making.

I know there are DWL too but my DWM is heavily patched for my liking I couldn't be bothered to repatch just to be on Wayland.

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marrsd@reddit

I'm in the same position. I have a good workflow and any replacement for the underlying service needs to be a drop-in replacement.

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Niwrats@reddit

not evolving is a good thing. it means the software is mature and is less likely to get breaking changes. that makes it more usable. thanks for taking part in the beta testing for us, though.

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

Hardware and software are always evolving as are users needs and threats.

Saying a lack of change in tech is good is admitting how little you know

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Niwrats@reddit

if i'm ignorant, then you're a dumb shallow kid chasing after trends for no practical benefit. or perhaps a fool from the marketing department. well, it's your loss, not mine.

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

flair checks out, I remember when I used debian until I realized all the bugs I was experiencing were fixed upstream and debian was the problem.

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Ezmiller_2@reddit

You're funny lol. No seriously, I'm laughing reading your part about Debian being the problem. Gotta give some context. I have an older Thinkpad T430 with an Nvidia 5400m. Both Nvidia and Linux fit support for it after we shifted to the 6.x kernel. Had I know that, I would have bought one without the NV chip. Anyway, I got the itch to try CachyOS on it. Things runs like butter, except for terrible screen tearing doing anything. Not joking. So I get the idea to try to get the drivers installed. Had a little AI help, and couldn't get the drivers or tearing to stop. AI tells me I need a 5.x kernel, so I should use Debian 12. From the first boot, I can tell a difference. No Nvidia drivers, but there's no screen tearing lol. My project this weekend is to try tweaking a bit on the performance end in Debian. Not much, but a little.

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

It's funny you try to pretend to laugh it off but most of the bug reports given to mesa is for shit fixed sometimes over a year earlier, simply because people using Debian which uses old packages didn't think to even check.

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

So you needed an old kernel because nvidia stopped supporting your card and the driver is somewhat intrinsically linked to different kernel versions? that definitely sucks

as far as not buying nvidia I think long term nvidia will have similar support as amd on linux once the nvk and nova infrastructure is up for new cards, but yeah it's a bad situation because for the open kernel drivers they maintain support way back and still get updates and the mesa drivers are separate.

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Ezmiller_2@reddit

Yeah, it was really cool seeing my CPU storm through zipped files though.

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lucasrizzini@reddit

Maturity is valuable only as long as the architecture remains aligned with the ecosystem’s trajectory. Otherwise, it gets left behind and eventually deprecated.

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lucasrizzini@reddit

Maturity is great when the architecture still aligns with where the ecosystem is going.

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

God, mentally ill replies like this are annoying.

Trying to say "kids" are the ones improving desktops designs is the sourest of grapes if I ever did see them.

Sounds like you're too young to remember compiz or beryl for that matter. Desktop fluidity has been chased on all sides since f before you were born.

Also naming how you dont do things or dont have stuff doesnt erase the flaws of x11.

We have now reached the point where 97% of Linux home users would be just fine on Wayland but would have to give something up to use x11.

Saying it ain't broke over and over only lets us know you can't read and lack critical understanding of the most basic tech running Linux.

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Natural-Ad-2172@reddit

I started using Wayland 2 months ago. Debian 13, KDE and Nvidia GTX 5600 with proprietary drivers from Nvidia's website because not even the Debian sid driver packages would support my new GPU.

My last GPU was an AMD Radeon 6600. Same Debian 13 installation with the open source repository drivers. Ran games wonderfully both Linux native and Windows games on wine. The Wayland session would crash instantly and it went back to sddm.

Before that GPU I had a Nvidia GeForce 1660 with the repository closed source drivers, same behavior: great at running games on Xorg and the Wayland session wouldn't work.

Now that I got Wayland working some of my everyday stuff had to be adjusted.

Retroarch doesn't like KDE's fractional scaling (I use a 4k 28"monitor with 175%). Had to disable Wayland in Retroarch. Running it under Xwayland doesn't seem to have any performance hit.

The same fractional scaling problem happened with my favorite image viewer qimgv (it's the fastest one I've found until now). Had to configure it to ignore Wayland also.

And my carefully developed home grown automation scripts that use xdotool and wmctrl obviously won't work anymore. But I can use them ok inside a xephyr window, and that works great for what I need.

I actually have fun discovering stuff that don't work anymore and trying to fix it. Each one to his own :)

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edparadox@reddit

What are your thoughts on the future of Wayland compared to X11 for Linux users?

I never understood what people actually wanted from Redditors rubbing their crystal balls (instead of reading mailing lists and such).

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Business_Reindeer910@reddit

some of us actually spend time reading those mailing lists, blog posts, and articles over the years. A newbie would only see things as a snapshot of the current moment, and not really know how it went when it was happening.

Others redditors might actually be the developers.

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Ezmiller_2@reddit

I didn't know till last summer that the Wayland team is the same team that developed X11, and someone had to clearly point it out to me like I was a dumbass, because I was being a dumbass.

But, if gaming is your only concern, then Wayland has gotten better. X11 is still better most of the time. If it's office work, unless you have to use video conferencing stuff or multiple monitors, I think everything else is fine.

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metux-its@reddit

> I didn't know till last summer that the Wayland team is the same team that developed X11,

They aren't. Wonder where you got this weird myth from.

And there are several X11 implementations. One of them: Redhat's Xorg, pretty much dead. Another one: community based Xlibre, very alive and adding new features.

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Ezmiller_2@reddit

Well, let's see.. Kristian Høgsberg worked on both. Daniel Stone worked on both. Keith Packard.

But X11 is pretty much dead. And there isn't much to show for Xlibre on their site. Have they even released an alpha or beta package?

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metux-its@reddit

Where did Keith (founder of Xorg) do much work on Wayland?

Redhat's Xorg is dead, yes. X11 in general lives on.

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Ezmiller_2@reddit

The hell should I know? What does it matter? Do you have a vendetta or something? Go talk to the guys on IRC. I asked AI and that's all Claude gave me. I didn't ask more because it really doesn't matter to me. I'm not coder--I'm a blue collar that likes to use Linux when he's home. Is that a crime? If so, send the Linux police after me.

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rabf@reddit

The Wayland devs are absolutely not the ones who developed X11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System

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disastervariation@reddit

karma, probably.

so many topics created daily, all hoping to start a heated debate about... display server protocols.

and they succeed!

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llzellner@reddit

Welll... you opened Pandoras Box...

��

I have NO INTEREST AT ALL in wayturkdey!

I am really kinda at the point of I am tired of crud being shoved down my throat to "fix" things for gen z who have no clue on how things were, are done. First it was pulseaudio, then it was systemd, now this! NO!

I'd hoped that the m$loth virus would have fixed poettering and they would have made it extinct, sadly no.

I won't be moving to waytukdey. Period. I am testing out the 26.04 version to see that I can do ONE LAST UPGRADE on that with X11 and see where things are by 2028.

Sadly I think my Linux run is coming to an end. It very specifically is for KDE at least, since they won't support X11 after an upcoming version. Even after the OUTRIGHT LYING that they would support it till people were ready.. Well I will never be ready, and you LIED ANY WAY! You got teased by your other wittle coder buddies and followed the peer pressure to succumb to wayturkdey!

I don't disagree that X11 needs to be updated. Any one saying otherwise is a fool.

HOWEVER the CURE is to sh00t the baby, and have another "new" one? Yeah. No.

Oh, but to fix the issues at hand in X11 then you need to start over... OK.. fine.. The step you are forgetting is BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. Period.

Note: SPLIT due to reddit idiocy.

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llzellner@reddit

What are the issues, or MY ISSUES

REMOTE X11.

Right now this session is on a remote box via X11 forwarding. I "X-in" to boxes all over the place do to things. Be it a SSH tunnel to it, or even XDMCP.

But, but but BUT VNC! Yeah NO! Thats slow compared to X11 forwarding and even XDMCP.

The devs at wayturkdey SPECIFICALLY rejected this model. So well, we are done! These wittle brats seem to have forgotten the current buzzword "cloud!" This is how things were done for decades.

Alot of the BS about X11 is in re laming. Well I don't do that, nor care about whether some POS lame runs a 10000000000FPS! I don't care! There is some post around here whining about HDR video or something... This rates right up there with the whole laming malarkey. I don't care! I here this whining about HDR, and Dolby this, and Dolby that in the Android box forums.. DO NOT CARE! Can it play X265, 1080p, 720, 4160p? Output stereo sound? GOOD! DONE! Correct, I don't don't have 50 speakers, and a 200ft display, nor do I want that. Even if I went to a theatre I am not that interested in it! So please stop.

This whole laming niche is an area which hits a nerve? (You think?). Yeah I don't "play" on my computers! They are for getting things done! Be it email, or word processing or database stuff, or SDR stuff, or REAL TASKS. This reminds me of the good old days in the shareware era, when Duke Nukem and Castle Wolfenstein came out , and it was all the rage, and blah blah blah blah.. I didn't care then, I DO NOT CARE NOW! If I want to play PacMan or Centipede or something I will break out the VCS2600, or MAME, and considering the dust on the VCS2600, it ain't happened in a long time.

Look at video cards! This stooopidity is out of hand! OUT OF HAND! Things are $$$$, take 2 slots at times, need 50 power connectors, and a nuclear reactor PSU to run them! NO! NO! All this to "play!?!?" NO!

You can take all that and turn it around that "I don't do remote.... "

EXACTLY!

So you make X11 work for all. But you don't, DON'T Just go? Remote display, meh.. no... Again, VNC, etc. are NOT solutions! The solution exists REMOTE X11 and its way better than VNC. VNC was, great at the time and in some cases. VNC lacked the same security that X11 did. It can and HAS BEEN ADDED just like and SSH tunnel for X11/XDMCP.

My opinion and view on wayturkdey would be far different had they not just said "Remote X, GONE!" And we have no plans to develop it.. So I have no plans to use your crap either. Even by force!

I am likely to just quit updating. I'd really hoped that by the time wayturkdey become widespread, I would be slurping jello. Not sure who hit the flipping afterburner on this, but I am not pleased!

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da_peda@reddit

Biggest issue for me will be that there's nothing like X11 forwarding (that I know of). Want to run a tool that (for whatever reason) needs an UI, but don't want to install a whole DE on a server? Just run ssh -X and forward the output to your local machine. 3D modelling in the living room, but the render machine is in the basement? Just forward the Blender GUI over the network an leave the processing power elsewhere with near 0 latency.

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

This is one of those cases where you want a novelty. People with real needs and requirements don't care about that novelty.

Since Wayland doesn't actually block remote rendering that can be implemented even per app. The reason no one is working real hard on that is because it's not needed.

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metux-its@reddit

Wayland offers no means for remote (server side) rendering.

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Business_Reindeer910@reddit

waypipe is one approach. Others just rely on rdp. I don't know what KDE and GNOME use for their built in stuff.

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metux-its@reddit

Neither ones (both just video streaming) are an actual replacement for network transparency

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da_peda@reddit

waypipe is an option. RDP isn't build for ad-hoc forwarding of a single application. And I explicitly don't want KDE and/or GNOME as a full install on my server.

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aioeu@reddit

Just run ssh -X and forward the output to your local machine.

One question this brings to mind is "why does ssh need to have a whole command-line option to do this?"

SSH has the ability to tunnel arbitrary stream connections. That is how the "generic" -L and -R options work.

And it is also how waypipe works. This wraps ssh and provides it with the correct options to connect the local waypipe instance with a remotely-launched waypipe instance.

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da_peda@reddit

SSH has a dedicated option because it does more than just port forwarding. It also sets the X11 authentication cookie and all the necessary environment variables so that it "just works".

And the facts that 1. the devs though it needed that option and 2. they kept it in there for a long time, more than 26(!) years

should tell that this isn't a useless option.

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aioeu@reddit

Sure, but none of that would be necessary if it just ran a program at the other end. It wouldn't need to be built into the SSH protocol, the SSH client, and the SSH server.

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lunchbox651@reddit

There's always teething problems as software transitions to a new technology. X11 has passed it's use-by and it's replacement has been a discussion for as long as I've been using Linux, so it's definitely time.

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zlice0@reddit

not over 15 years worth. waylands main failure is that x11 isn't dead yet. but people will argue or make excuses like it's some kind of conspiracy instead of acknowledging or addressing issues.

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

Wayland hasn't been a full fledged release for 15 years so maybe don't be so dumb.

Also x11 didn't magically support everything instantly, in fact it doesn't even support multiple monitors and requires a piss poor hack to get it to work.

The real time drain on development is kids like you kicking and screaming and a lack of push until recently by the community.

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metux-its@reddit

Multi-monitor support has been invented on X11, long before PCs even had the hardware for that.

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metux-its@reddit

Wayland has just not a single improvement for me, just loosing vital features. Don't see a single reason why I should use it ever.

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zlice0@reddit

cant debug shit unless everyone becomes top tier programmer - https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/159

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

Just don't stop the execution of gui programs on purpose then send so many events to the program that the compositor closes the connection to avoid using 64mb of memory to hold the buffer of all the accumulated events over that time wtf

Think about the fact that the only reason this would happen is because you pressed ctrl+z to run commands in a terminal where you ran a gui app because the shell doesn't have a keybind to background the process instead/you don't know it and use ctrl+z as a substitute because of decisions made 60 years ago

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zlice0@reddit

a simple mouse click or alt+tab focus is enough to do it though. and the 'solutions' are things like handling input in a thread, but then you cant debug input really, which you may need to for say, a game or window manager. the x11 way of handling it like the quote said, less than ideal too.

i would think dropping events should be a option, then each wm could say kill after some number of dead events, or not. but it seems like even any suggested change would have to be in libwayland-server and i have no hope of that happening.

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

a simple mouse click or alt tab focus is enough to do it

Shouldn't be, on both kde and gnome it should be a few megabytes of buffer size so you should have to send a lot of events for it to cause a crash.

It used to be unreasonably small though, and on 8000hz polling I've encountered crashes when i move my mouse for just a few seconds on loading screens before so I set the buffer to grow to be up to 32mb in my compositor.

dropping events should be an option

the issue is that the client is the one hanging, and dropping events could be problematic, think of a game where it stutters for a second and you were moving your mouse. Your mouse inputs get dropped and it's jarring. It's also not clearing because the client isn't responding, the structure is a linked list queue of events the client needs to process and the compositor just keeps writing to it until it gets EAGAIN, and then it can increase the size of the buffer to a certain point every time it gets too big amortized or I guess stop writing inputs like you said until its back

this doesnt actually require changes to libwayland-server or if it does I don't know because I don't use that shit anyways or know what it does but it's just how the compositor handles EAGAIN

But yeah as I said alt tab should not do it, that only sends configure() and a few keypresses, that should not fill the buffer.

By far the worst has to be mouse input since it send an event once every time your mouse polls. You could probably start coalescing input events once you get eagain until the client starts responding and reduce the event rate a lot but it would be complicated and require a lot of work to make sure you don't break anything

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zlice0@reddit

does look like it works now on a livecd. guessing wl_display_set_max_buffer_size ?

thanks

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dnu-pdjdjdidndjs@reddit

it's compositor dependent youd have to check the code

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Wheatleytron@reddit

I use Synergy as a software KVM for work, and it just won't work with Wayland. I have to switch my session to X11 to get it to work.

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alerikaisattera@reddit

So far, the only practical benefit of Wayland for the end user is the ability to take screenshots of context menus

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

Did you get that from a tiktok? There's security, HDR, true multi monitor support, a back end that is actually stable instead of kicking you to a terminal because one letter was off in in a config, etc. The list goes on.

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alerikaisattera@reddit

security

Theorectical security that does not translate into practical security

HDR

Too niche and all HDR-capable video editors only work under X11

true multi monitor support

No truer than X11

a back end that is actually stable

That's not what "stable" means

instead of kicking you to a terminal because one letter was off in in a config

Wayland can very well crash or otherwise fail

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the_abortionat0r@reddit

Is this post farming? All of the pros have been listed in dev blogs for years.

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fankin@reddit

Da fak is this generic poll question? And more importantly: Why? Every 5th topic is a wayland contra X11 thread. Just read those.

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bobj33@reddit

AI slop

All of OP's posts are like this kind of generic engagement bait karma farming AI crap.

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MelioraXI@reddit

Karma farming probably. Or a bot.

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bobj33@reddit

AI slop post

Look at OP's entire post history. It's all just generic engagement bait slop.

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PlaneBitter1583@reddit

I honestly want to use X11 Still because GLFW Still don't works properly on Wayland so for me the future is still X11 but for me. DEs are actually transitioning to wayland eg. GNOME. But i will still be using X11 because of compatibility with GLFW Apps.

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sublime_369@reddit

I'm on Wayland as are the majority of users. Don't really care what happens with X11.

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Phydoux@reddit

I don't see any benefits in Wayland vs x11. I don't really do anything that requires Wayland. I have been using Wayland though for about a month or so and I just started using Hyprland. But I have gone back to my x11 Tiling Window Managers periodically. Been having issues with monitors not sleeping.

That being said, 2 of my good monitors have died since starting to use Wayland so, I'm not sure if using Wayland is the cause but it's not looking good for Wayland at this point. Yes, the monitors are 4-5 years old but it's funny how they died after only a month using Wayland. So, I don't know. After this update I'm doing, I may log into Awesome WM or qtile (X11) and leave it at that.

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LowB0b@reddit

I do not really care for one or the other. I just want something that is actively maintained and works. I've been using fedora kde wayland for a year now and have had no problems. The only downside I see for now is the lack of a autohotkey/autoit equivalent

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MelioraXI@reddit

That's a pretty big one for me, I believe there has been attempts to make a wayland version but the way wayland works its difficult.

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DayInfinite8322@reddit

i dont have any thoughts, i moved to linux recently so i dont how x11 was worked, for me everything works so far in wayland.

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MelioraXI@reddit

For most users they won't notice a difference unless you had specific tooling that isn't compatible in Wayland.

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DoubleOwl7777@reddit

i use wayland only. havent had issues at all. i can even game in vr.

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pomcomic@reddit

I'm by no means an expert on this topic, so do correct me if I'm wrong in some of these assessments.

So far, I've had a much better experience on Wayland overall. I started my Linux journey on Mint about two years ago. So, X11 starting point. Immediately I found my monitor setup to be borderline impossible to make work properly - see, I've got three 1920 * 1080 panels side by side, all with different refresh rates (from left to right, 75hz, 144hz, 60hz), so that in itself was an issue (games would for some reason cap out at the leftmost screen's refresh rate, but desktop rates were fine for some reason?), BUT there was also a TV hooked up to my PC that wasn't switched on at all times - I occasionally play games on the couch, so I had the TV screen mirror my center monitor. Easy to set up on Windows, an absolute nightmare to do on X11. I had it figured out eventually, but it really wasn't straightforward, especially not for a Linux noob such as myself, both at the time and now.

On Wayland, this issue was immediately and easily solved. KDE makes it super easy to mirror displays, refresh rates work as expected, etc. There were a few minor things I've gotten used to on Mint/X11 that I had to relearn, but I can't quite recall what they were, so .... we're talking *minor* here. Also ICC color management for screen calibration just is not a thing on X11 - so if you have a colorimeter or do any graphic design, Wayland is an absolute must.

The ONE thing that I WISH would work on Wayland are some features of graphic tablets - namely touch strips. See, some graphic tablets (and tablet monitors) have shortcut keys on their side and some of them offer ring dials or touch strips to do stuff such as zooming, rotating your canvas, etc. As of right now, those inputs specifically only work on X11, but I know for a fact that people are working on implementing that functionality, so it's just a matter of time until that particular hole gets plugged as well. Granted, it's a hole that 99% of people using Linux just won't encounter, but it does matter to digital artists and while I'm annoyed that the hole exists, I'm glad it's being worked on.

Long story short, no noteworthy complaints about Wayland from me so far. I had way more pain points on X11, mostly due to my - admittedly odd - monitor setup and graphic design/digital art needs and wants. As for performance, games seem to run better on Wayland too, as for apps I haven't noticed a difference whatsoever. Probably because my rig is beefy enough where it won't make a perceptible difference either way.

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lucasrizzini@reddit

I was one of those advocating for X11 because of all the issues I ran into trying Wayland over the years. That was, what, two years ago? Then recently I decided to give it another shot after seeing KDE’s decision to make Wayland the default, and honestly, it’s been great so far. I use Intel UHD 630.

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deluded_dragon@reddit

Being on XFCE since 2012, this topic doesn't get me very much. I have very basic needs, my PC is more than 10 years old and I don't use the PC for gaming.
I will be happy if XFCE will manage to switch to Wayland but, as long as X11 works well, for me it's fine.

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