Do not move to Portugal thinking it’s cheap
Posted by YakPersonal9246@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 469 comments
There’s a lot of videos, websites and reels / TikTok’s selling the “Portugal dream” and saying Portugal is the New California, but way better and cheaper.
I’m Portuguese, born and raised there, but currently living in Ireland, as it became almost impossible for local Portuguese to work and have a good life balance in the country with the low salaries / wages and high taxes, specially in Lisbon / Porto.
One of the reasons that make a lot of Americans / digital nomads want to move there it’s because it’s very cheap. Yes for American standard it’s cheap , and some years ago was very cheap. But because of his popularity and people saying to move here, specially Americans, the cost of living went super high , similar to what happened to Costa Rica that was so cheap but because loads of Americans / foreigners moving there it became expensive if for them.
Now it’s happening the same to Portugal. Lot of Americans and foreigners moving to Lisbon and Porto made those locations so expensive that now they are starting to leave the county as they don’t think it’s cheap anymore.
The Portuguese government is ending the “gold visas” for foreigns as well because of the house crisis making it more difficult for locals, which are causing loads of Americans leaving the country again.
So please be advise to stop selling that Portugal is cheap, it’s a lie and it’s making the life of the locals even more difficult as well. Sorry if this post felt kind of angry.
Ohhappyday13@reddit
Cascais
Crypton57@reddit
Hmmm... we are American and given the situation developing here - I believe the end point being a soft coup - we are thinking of leaving for while to watch American burn itself down or get rehabilitated at which pint, we'll be back. This was plan all along - just accelerated by 2 years. After much research and narrowing it down to three countries based on various professional and private criteria: Uruguay, Portugal, and Australia. Of these Australia is quite expensive for the visa process and cost of living. Uruguay is great but English is not as widely spoken outside the cities - which I think also true of Portugal. But Portugal has more larger cities to choose from and many urbanites speak English. Not interested in a Golden Visa - just a long term Visa. Not interested in citizenship either. Can some expats comment about living there for a year or more. Also, with the EU system, once we have the residency in Portugal we can move around to other EU countries with ease. Thanks.
spicy_pierogi@reddit
Are Americans moving everywhere? Because this seems to be the trend worldwide. Also, should Irish people complain about Portuguese raising the cost of their living? Because coincidentally, their COL increased a lot recently too, and many more Portuguese live in Ireland than there are Americans in Portugal.
Point your fingers at the governments that enabled poorly-regulated short-term housing to take over. Point your fingers at the companies that are continuing to exploit Portuguese with piss-poor salaries. The Americans are just the easiest targets (in more ways than one).
Future-Cow-5043@reddit
Yes Americans are moving everywhere mainly because in the US it is twice as expensive as almost any other country, you need to make $1000 a week minimum to live anywhere now in the US. Most retired Americans are living in about $2000 a month social security so there is limited options for a normal retirement now. Add in the horrible medical expenses, crime, weather, politics, no one will stay here unless they are either really rich or trapped. I would love to stay in my house but I would need my social security to double just to maintain my standard of living from when I bought it. Millions of Americans are getting pushed into immigration due to these high cost and it just getting started, get use to seeing a bunch of fat, old Americans because we are coming by the thousands. I don’t think most of the world has any idea about how expensive life in the US is now, it’s beyond comprehension even for us. We have no standards of living anymore, our food sucks, our medical care is the most expensive and the worst outcomes, huge population of completely insane individuals that should be institutionalized. Massive gun and crime problems, cratering infrastructure, continuous political and financial scams happening all the time, it’s a total hellhole now.
Flaky-Football-4119@reddit
YAY! SOMEONE SAID IT ALL RIGHT HERE! THANKS - NOW I DONT HAVE TO TYPE IT ALL. GREAT OBSERVATION... WELL SAID. 1000000pts
Skinnypop22@reddit
There are 750,000 immigrants in Portugal and 10,000 of them are Americans.
jeremyjava@reddit
Any source for this? I’ll be curious to read more about such types of data. Thanks!
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
Yes, Russians too, and a good bunch of Europeans. I'm expecting to see more Canadians and Germans on the move. Switzerland has been getting quite a bit of Germans lately, rather understandably.
MyBlueBlazerBlack@reddit
Don't know if you've been paying any sort of attention to what's been going on in Canada as of late, but lets just say that no one, in any country should be even remotely surprised to see flocks of Canadians starting over/moving into your city (anywhere in the world I mean). The "I need to get out of Canada" conversation is happening more and more over the past few years and people are actually following up on it. I've personally been wanting to leave for a long time as well but feel the need to update my skills in order to have more options work-wise. The whole "I need to get out of here/why am I suffering here just to barely make it" sentiment is growing significantly.
For years the message seemingly put out by the government here is that Canada has no interest in prioritizing Canadians. It's really hard to parrot any semblance of "Canadian Pride" when the government overtly shows you how little they give a fuck about your struggles as a Canadian citizen. That tone has consequences; and you're seeing those consequences playing out in more and more people choosing to flee.
Get used to hearing "I'm from Canada", wherever you are in the world.
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
I do pay attention to what's going on in Canada. I wrote this comment a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/comments/15vsg3z/3rd_county_move/jwxwhc1/?context=3
It's incredibly painful to witness what's unfolding. The sadness is profound, and it all feels so surreal. It's as if this reality we're living in can't possibly be true—almost like we're trapped in a nightmare.
RedPanda888@reddit
Russians have completely fucked the Phuket property market here in Thailand.
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
Why are they choosing Thailand? Thousands of pregnant Russians have been flying to Argentina to deliver their babies and claim Argie citizenship.
RedPanda888@reddit
They love it here. Phuket has a huge Russian community, and you’ll see Russian signage everywhere. Unsure why, to be honest. I guess because Thailand is pretty neutral in that it costs up to both the west and China so Russians don’t risk being persecuted much.
It’s been this way for years, not just after the war.
twinkleprincess888@reddit
Because russian people really love sea. They work whole year to have a vacation at the sea. Everything women dreams of is going to the sea. People like uploading photos of sea. Vacation at the sea, all-inclusive hotels are valued more than city-trips or other sightseeing.
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
They phuked it
ElSuprimoGrande767@reddit
Most of the folks I saw in Portugal were actually from the UK.
barriedalenick@reddit
Uk only has about 2% of the immigrant population in Portugal. The reason it seems more is that firstly they tend to cluster together and also that most immigrants are actually Brazilians and tend to blend in rather better!
Efficient_Science_47@reddit
Switzerland has opened an asylum centre for Norwegian billionaires who struggle with the cost of living in Norway.
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
😂😂😂
spicy_pierogi@reddit
Really, just those groups of people?
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
You mean you really do not understand what we are talking about? Or are you just being facetious?
ReachPlayful@reddit
Portuguese move to Ireland to work and pay taxes in Ireland as opposed to these rich digital nomads that hardly pay taxes and just contribute to increase COL so I’d say it’s not the same shit
Better-Suit6572@reddit
To work, you mean to take jobs from locals? Immigration hypocrites are the scummiest people alive
ReachPlayful@reddit
What’s the problem? It’s called free market. There are Irish people living and working in Portugal so cut that hate speech dumbfuck. If a Irish guy is not good enough for a job in a tech company that a Portuguese takes it then it’s the Irish guy who should look himself in the mirror. Dumbfuck hypocrites are the scummiest people alive
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
That makes absolutely no sense. So if a Portuguese person comes to Switzerland it's the free market but if I bring Swiss money to Portugual and can outcompete the locals it's unfair?
ReachPlayful@reddit
What doesn’t make any sense? One thing is a rich guy from Switzerland coming to Portugal and paying almost no taxes (and if you doubt it check the Portuguese tax laws regarding this) and other is the majority of Portuguese people that go to to Switzerland looking for a better life and taking low skilled jobs like house keeping (which is the majority of them). If you think it’s the same then I don’t what else to tell you
ezfrag2016@reddit
The thing you’re missing is that the rich person’s “almost no taxes” is probably still more taxes in that year paid to the Portuguese government then your entire family in their lifetime. So who is contributing more?
ReachPlayful@reddit
I’m not missing anything. Minimum requirement for income to apply for a visa in Portugal is around 2k give or take. Those almost no taxes are not forever and unless it’s some billionaire they’re not paying more taxes than my my entire life for now because they don’t stay here for long. Most of this people moving here are not billionaires so whilst I pay 40% and someone coming here paying 10% on whatever they make. Not to mention crypto that taxes for that here is also 0%. In the meanwhile government doesn’t give a fuck because one extra euro is one extra euro
ezfrag2016@reddit
I thought you were talking about a rich guy from Switzerland and not some guy earning €2k per month. The bottom line is that the Portuguese government is begging foreigners to come and spend money in Portugal. They want foreigners here so much that they are willing to annoy all Portuguese people by giving them these special tax deals. I agree, the tax situation in Portugal is stupid but when you consider a lot of locals hide their income and only pay tax on a small portion of it by paying cash for everything and doing deals under the table then the government can be forgiven for this stupid plan.
I bought a house in Portugal and during the purchase the seller suggested that we agree a lower price and then I pay him €50k directly that we don’t declare. This type of tax fraud is common. It’s a chicken and egg situation. If the government took its foot off the throat of ordinary Portuguese people maybe they wouldn’t hide income and if people didn’t hide income and avoid taxes then maybe the government wouldn’t enforce such ridiculously high taxes on the few people who actually pay them.
ReachPlayful@reddit
Yes, it’s true. And I’ve written in some other comments as well. The main one to blame is the Portuguese government that are super corrupt and only see euros in their heads even if if fucks the country. The government can’t be forgiven but unfortunately it’s something Portuguese learn since kids. They learn how to go around taxes and avoid this and that and ofcourse that mentality will go into the political leaders as well.
Yes it’s very common to pay a hefty amount under the table when purchasing a house. Unfortunately it has its backside when/if you sell the house you’ll end up paying more taxes because of that in the future. Sometimes people forget that and doesn’t really compensate that much for the home owner.
ezfrag2016@reddit
I think the government should start by introducing a much less aggressive tax system where like the first €10k is tax free and then it increases from there. So people who earn minimum wage can still afford to eat. There should be incentives for people to start businesses to try to ensure that Portugal’s most talented people don’t all leave the country.
Also the tax situation for foreigners is far too stupidly generous. We are coming here for the sun and the nicer way of life. We don’t need more incentives.
And as an immigrant in Portugal I would prefer if the locals didn’t continue to get more and more angry by my presence in the country. I choose to live here, pay taxes here, run a business here, spend all my money here and speak to people in Portuguese. Sadly I cannot vote so the only way things will change is if the Portuguese electorate vote for change. And no, I don’t mean the Portuguese Trump, Andre Ventura.
Better-Suit6572@reddit
Amigo, you are the one trying to draw an arbitrary distinction between immigrants you personally approve of and those you don't. Exercise a little critical thinking before acting a fool.
ReachPlayful@reddit
It’s not me drawing a distinction between immigrants. We were writing about cost of life. If a Portuguese looking for a better life abroad goes out and finds a job and makes a living it’s not the same as, let’s say, an American who goes out for a couple years to countries where it’s substantially cheaper and avoids taxes due to that country’s tax rules that allows that. It’s not the same and it’s not me saying I approve or not. I’ll never criticise someone who goes abroad to look for himself and his family. But yall pretentious digital nomads come to Portugal and not even fucking adapt to the culture or even bother to learn the language and think that are on the same level as other immigrants is fucking hilarious
Better-Suit6572@reddit
You are just making more hypocritical distinctions that make you look like a xenophobic idiot. Do you know how many Mexicans and other immigrants from Latin America come to the US and don't know functional English? Do you think all the people who come to America without functional English should return back to their countries too? European students are taught English in schools of course it's easier for them to go to an English speaking country already having learned the language.
I am not going to argue that more Americans shouldn't learn the language of wherever they are moving to, but if that is your main criticism you better consistently apply that rationale to the 25 million people (2.5 times the size of Portugal) people living in the USA without functional English.
Show me your economics paper providing actual data on how much Americans are lifting to cost of living in Portugal vs how much Portuguese immigrants are doing so in Paris or anywhere else. These arguments are not based on actual research or evidence but based on Americuh bad huh huh. If Americans were going to different countries and working jobs that locals could be working, that absolutely would be the criticism of them. You don't actually care about any of the arguments you are making, you are just strawmanning to reach the conclusion that Americans should not immigrate and people from other countries should. Just makes you a double standard jackass.
ReachPlayful@reddit
“Do you know how many Mexicans and other immigrants from Latin America come to the US and don't know functional English? Do you think all the people who come to America without functional English should return back to their countries too?”
Yes I know and like I said: I don’t criticise people who move abroad to look for themselves and their family and do the sacrifice of moving all their life somewhere else for their financial well-being as long as they play by the rules that everyone else plays. You’re just mixing what I said and passing me by some xenophobic guy
“if that is your main criticism you better consistently apply that rationale to the 25 million people (2.5 times the size of Portugal) people living in the USA without functional English”
It was never my main criticism, you keep on insisting on stupid things
“Show me your economics paper providing actual data on how much Americans are lifting to cost of living in Portugal vs how much Portuguese immigrants are doing so in Paris or anywhere else.”
It’s unbelievable how fucking of a tool you are. American was an example of nationality for the focus of my critique which was the special benefits in taxes given to certain foreigners in portugal. For that, if you caught some other comments of mine, you’ll see me saying it’s the Portuguese government’s fault and not the AmErICanS. I don’t care if you’re American or Iranian, if you’re coming here not paying the proper taxes then you’re raising the COL in a unfair way. And let me tell you again so you can memorise it: the Portuguese in Paris go there to work and pay the proper taxes. If that raises the COL then the government should do something about it and that’s it regardless of the immigrants being Portuguese or not. They only go looking for a better prospect of life. It’s a thing that other nationality that only moves to get special benefits it’s probably already living fairly in their hometown. And so you know l I’m friends with Americans in Portugal that do live here and work here so once again you’re a tool trying to make me look like a xenophobic.
“You don't actually care about any of the arguments you are making, you are just strawmanning to reach the conclusion that Americans should not immigrate and people from other countries should. “
I’ve no response to that lol. What’s next? That I think that only Portuguese should be able to immigrate in the world and fuck the rest?
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
Pedophiles surely
Better-Suit6572@reddit
Hyperbole obviously there's Narcos, Nazis, cold blooded murders, etc
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Tons of Portuguese here in Switzerland.
ReachPlayful@reddit
Yes I know, and most of them take really low skilled jobs so not much competition for the hard skilled locals I’d say
gringosean@reddit
Only Californians /s
Simco_@reddit
People outside the US don't know how every city/state blames Californians the way OP is blaming all Americans.
TXDego@reddit
Yeah but to be fair, pretty much every problem in the world can be traced back or attributed to Californians, so the blame is legit.
Big_Old_Tree@reddit
To be fair, where I live we blame the Californians but also the Texans
Jamieobda@reddit
I blame Nixon
ccx941@reddit
Happy cake day, also damn Californians.
1s20s@reddit
Last time I pointed this out it was down voted to oblivion and I received wishes of death and violence visited upon me.
Glad to see more people are ready to acknowledge the facts,finally.
ErnestBatchelder@reddit
To be fair, Ireland was very cheap 20 years ago then Dublin encouraged a business/ tech boom (while failing to keep building housing), and the same happened there.
All of this was happening well before social media and digital nomad-ing, but the rate and speed with which a place gentrifies and becomes overpriced is just moving faster now.
There is now a global housing shortage & underbuilding in many regions for the past 2 decades.
BoredNoodleWrecker@reddit
Here's the thing...it's always just a scapegoat so you don't blame the greed of the ruling class for ever increasing prices. The real problem is crapitalism. Not technology, not immigrants - it's the system of exploitation designed to keep us all poor and desperate.
CrackaJakes@reddit
Getting rid of all single-family short term rentals would make the most immediate impact. That’s not just Lisbon - it’s global. There are places all across America where the same thing is happening — the AirBnB-ification of the world, making it impossible for locals to live.
Future-Cow-5043@reddit
Yes that’s right ruined most of western Montana for the locals. Ruined my neighborhood, too many cars, too much noise. Oddly enough their cars always get horribly vandalized every time, damn dust thing.
Saritabb2022@reddit
The other problem is if you are a family and you need a place to live for a year or you lose your housing and you have to find new rentals who can afford first last in a security deposit? We have been using Airbnb housing for long-term stays for the last couple of years. Not only are all the utilities included and any maintenance problems belong to the owner but it keeps us from having come up with thousands and thousands of dollars just to move. There is no security in rentals anymore. When I was a kid, my grandma rented from the same people for 20 years. Now you're lucky if you get a 2-year lease out of a rental. And who can afford to buy?? It's not just Airbnb owners who are changing the face of housing. It is every single contractor developer and landlord who rents properties out at double the mortgage cost. Boo.
Int-Merc805@reddit
This, and due to the shortage it should go back to 1 house per family until it’s fixed. Housing quite simply should not be this expensive and tanking the economy is the only way to fix it.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
That's quite obviously not going to fix anything. You need less people, more houses or both.
It's also going to make people without a deposit to buy homeless...
thebeakman@reddit
Highly limiting short term rentals absolutely WILL lower housing prices. There's no argument to the contrary that holds any water whatsoever. These properties are being purchased by investors for more than they'd ordinarily be worth, since they're able to rent them short-term at prices often 3-5 times higher than traditional long-term rentals. I've seen units renting at 10x in high-demand areas.
Limiting short-term rentals will NOT tank the economy, as those homes will still be purchased, but by those who will actually live there. Will those sales result in lower amounts of money being spent in the housing market? Yes. But the mortgage industry will grow due to MORE buyers being able to afford a home. Additionally, rents will fall somewhat since more people will be able to buy. These lower rents will benefit younger people and those of less means.
Will reducing short term rentals lower tourism? Perhaps, but more likely hotel prices will simply rise to meet the additional demand and effectively offset the losses of airbnb type rentals. I'd also wager more hotels will be built, which is good for the economy.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Yes but most rentals are long term not short.
t4ct1c4l_j0k3r@reddit
Tanking the economy will only make it that much more difficult
Electronmage@reddit
Making it impossible for anyone to live anywhere. Corporations should not be able to monopolize housing.
BoredNoodleWrecker@reddit
Because the small percentage of people who own houses are voting to keep housing prices high because all of their equity is tied up in their homes.
VoyagerVII@reddit
At least if they make them into long-term rentals, though, locals can rent them and that would somewhat ease the housing problem, though. They wouldn't be taken out of circulation for locals to live in the way they are as Airbnbs.
Comprehensive_Link67@reddit
Long term rentals in Portugal are taxed at a higher rate than short term rentals. This is an absurd policy, reversing this would help a lot. AirBnB's are contributing to the problem, true, but the major issue is that huge conglomerates are working in the shadows and buying up properties enmass. They then control the supply and in turn control pricing. It's the DeBeer's model - except no one NEEDS diamonds. The fact that this is impacting a basic human need makes it so much more nefarious.
economicwhale@reddit
These arguments always make it out like a small percentage of people own their houses and instead rich evil landlords own them, this is completely untrue, in Portugal the home ownership rate is 78.3%!
clonea85m09@reddit
Yeah, people should touch grass more
ReflexPoint@reddit
I don't know, I think this is wildly exaggerated. Airbnbs for the most part aren't even 1% of an entire housing market. The vast majority of people visiting a place like Portugal are just regular tourists staying in hotels and not DNs competing for housing with locals. Incomes across the world are not keeping up with living costs. Those American DNs fleeing to Portugal, or Mexico or Panama are doing it because they can't afford to live in the US anymore. Yes it sucks for the new markets getting inflated but the fundamental problem is why isn't there enough housing being built to keep housing costs at an affordable rate? Yes, some people move to Portugal because they just love Portugal. But I bet that if many could live that same standard of living in their home country they would not leave.
JohnnyTinnitusQB@reddit
So capitalism is exploitation? SMH, come on, man. Capitalism is a system that benefits those who get off their ass and hustle for what they want. You should go move to Venezuela for a year and check back in with this sub and let us know how communism worked out for you. Stop playing the victim role and start chasing your dreams. I agree that times are tough right now and things are insanely expensive worldwide, but the culprit is not capitalism, it’s greedy politicians who keep kicking the can down the road to their successors. They aren’t going to fix these problems until everything falls apart which will be very soon, so buckle up as the worst is yet to come.
BoredNoodleWrecker@reddit
You're a fool. There are TONS of people who work their asses off who never succeed under capitalism. It's a rigged system where wealth amasses to those who already have it.
JohnnyTinnitusQB@reddit
Oh, I’m a fool? The average number of generations that wealth lasts after it is amassed is three generations. Go on YouTube and watch all of Daniel Mac’s videos. He’s the kid who rolls up on people in expensive cars and asks them what they do and if they have any advice. Most of those people are blue collar hustlers like plumbers, contractors, etc. one guy in a Bugatti said he amassed his money by metal scrapping cars. These are two examples that prove you are wrong. The fact that you think it is a “rigged” system just means that you are one of the losers. Maybe you need to get off your ass and stop whining about the system and start figuring it out so you can benefit as well? Can’t wait to hear back from you with more excuses and anger. Waiting…
circle22woman@reddit
You think the average homeowner is a part of the "ruling class"?
BoredNoodleWrecker@reddit
You think the average homeowner is responsible for housing prices?
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
It's not anything to do with "rich people", it's simply a function of the number of people versus the number of properties.
(And to a lesser extent interest rates).
Clear-Structure5590@reddit
The housing market is not operating on a simple supply/demand curve. Homes are traded investments. Many homes (something like 30% in my previous city) are sitting empty despite raging demand and way overblown rents.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
That's fairly unusual. Even in London that's quite uncommon outside the central area for homes to be empty.
clonea85m09@reddit
In my city of origin there's around 50% of unused empty homes, one of the worst in the country. Part of the issue here is it's privately owned renaissance or earlier buildings in the center of the city. I know personally the son of the owner of one of those, he's a normal-ish guy whose family was rich before WW2 and now he does not have money to fix the goldmine he's sitting on, while the buildings are at the same time almost inestimable (with frescos and stuff), but not worth enough to get the money to fix them mortgaging them as collaterals.
These would be like 30 apartments in a place where a new home costs 500k (with median wage of 40k, pretty non-affordable). He tried to rent a piece of it - the literal servants quarters - but had to stop because a piece of the plaster on the roof fell on the tenant's bed.
The rest of the issue is either people not knowing what to do to rent, not having time to devote to that or earning too little from it to actually have any benefit from renting, or people having inherited the home, but not the money to fix it. Or, the funniest one, homes stuck in inheritance drama until they are basically in ruin/need major maintenance (and then you are back at the previous point), happened to my family
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Why doesn't he just sell it?
clonea85m09@reddit
He has no buyers, I suspect he asks too much. The point for the buildings to be inestimable and worthless at the same time still stands. He has applied for funds to a charity(ish) that pays for renovation of historical buildings. I don't know what they ask in return though.
circle22woman@reddit
Of course, most homes are owner occupied, then add on top all the middle class buying investment homes to rent.
brass427427@reddit
Uh huh. I suggest you go and live in North Korea for a glimpse of exploitation. You're assigning blame for your own screw-ups.
badmammy@reddit
As a former Dubliner (with property) I can attest to this. Renting out property is a total pain in the arse because in "on-demand" areas you get arsey Irish lawyers and bankers on insisting on top of the notch everything and there's ZERO guarantee that they'll pay rent on time.
The rental market in Ireland favours big developers while pushing us little guys out. To compare property prices in Dublin than say Belgium or Luxembourg, gods forbid, where landlords gouge you, Dublin is a joke.
An Bord Pleanala is a joke. Sell sell sell and get the HELL out of Ireland.
Not sure about Portugal but it's probably heading that way. Thank Trump and Brexit for that crap.
sapotanque@reddit
I had to leave Dublin because I couldn't find an apartment to rent. It was easier to move countries than to get a single reply on a rent ad 😂
uman_mi@reddit
Happens now the same in Berlin.
Pristine-Rooster8321@reddit
Ireland was not cheap 20 years ago! House prices in 2014 were over 500k for a 3 bed in Dublin. After-school care for one kid was €1000 a month, I know because I was paying this then! The 2007 crash destroyed our economy because we relied so heavily on US companies in Ireland providing jobs. The government bailed the banks out, a huge mistake. Things are now crazy again.
Excellent-Code5448@reddit
That's the main problem, europe stopped building, govenrments don't even let us build skyscrapers, you need to have so many papers to build a stupid home that it's almost impossible to build, it's easier to renovate than to build from scratch, at least in my country. Most cities you can't build high buildings to maintin the fcking citie's aesthetics (not even talking about skyscrapers) I feel like a few neighbourhoods with skyscrapers would solve europe's housing problem.
ghostinthekernel@reddit
The southern European countries are employing the same Irish/Dutch model because they have seen that it works in reducing drastically unemployment. In Italy it seems to be already working by lowering the unemployment rate to the lowest in years. I think most people will ditch the old tax advantageous countries for these new ones since the housing market is still better and the weather is definitely better. I think what will happen is that there will be an influx of people working in highly skilled fields and more jobs for people working in blue collar jobs that will be needed to satisfy the demand in housing, infrastructure and services.
ErnestBatchelder@reddit
I have no idea what the Southern European countries are doing (and it may be a lot) to try and attract businesses that will hire locally. Tax advantages + already existing supported infrastructure are what bring in foreign companies. Golden Visas and Digital Nomad Visas aren't it, imo.
Maybe through work visas, but they've been available for decades so if that was going to change Greece, Spain, or Portugal's economy, it would have happened by now. Golden visas through investment or housing purchases bring in wealthier individuals with low incentives to work or hire within their new country though. Digital nomad visas are extremely vague from my understanding. You can be a youtuber, crypto bro or influencer- not really an economic boon to local communities- and find a way in if you can prove supported income. Although those are great for hospitality and short-term rental economy, but that's about it.
Maybe, but that falls more on the culture of the area. If it is an area where locals don't particularly like working for foreigners and there is already a culture of not meeting timelines, development isn't going to boom without government incentives for building more, and even then it turns into housing crisis when new development is priced at the higher end & again the local population doesn't fully benefit from the economic gain.
ghostinthekernel@reddit
I was referring to people moving from other EU countries, but the tax breaks would be effective for people from outside the EU as well, these tax breaks are very recent, less than 3yo, many people have no idea they are in place. I can tell you a good number of people are just moving back from Ireland and the Netherlands because the housing costs and cost of living don't make sense anymore, and in some cases you can make more going to Portugal, Spain or Italy with these tax breaks. Regarding the digital nomad visas idk, I think that kind of lifestyle is very niche and not something that can realistically be accessible to many, I was talking about skilled jobs where working from home is an option, but not necessarily available. Most people do not migrate to be digital nomads but to find better job opportunities or higher purchase power (aka lower taxes).
Spain and Italy have dying cities and towns, there's even too many houses in most of the country. If you can work from home it's going to be a piece of cake finding a nice house, if you have to go to the office you may want to consider commuting between 30m-1h to work. But it's nowhere near Northern countries, unless you go to the major cities, but I hope corona taught people to just avoid huge cities.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Dublin wasn't cheap 20 years ago. I went their when I was 18 from the UK on a lads holiday and it was shockingly expensive.
I'm now 35.
wanderingdev@reddit
The comment was about housing. Did you spend a lot of time looking at real estate during your 18 year old lads holiday?
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Fair enough!
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
Ireland was cheap in 2011-13 just 10-12 years ago
MethyleneBlueEnjoyer@reddit
By the time you hear about it on some huge social media channel, the party is already over
Goes for everything
philemil@reddit
You’re right! How can we find out about these places before they appear on social media?
ElSuprimoGrande767@reddit
Here is one : Syria.
I hear real estate is cheap , and so is everything else.
Don't say I didn't tell you 😉
Witty_Greenedger@reddit
Crazy how you predicted it
snipdockter@reddit
Land is cheap but buildings may require some assembly.
daffoduck@reddit
Eastern Ukraine is the next hot thing.
b1gb0n312@reddit
I heard Bakmuht is the bomb
salvaged_goods@reddit
the real estate market is about to explode
CornusControversa@reddit
The problem is these days everyone is such an attention seeker and desperate for likes that there’s not many secrets left.
lawfulkitten1@reddit
Talk to people, or just go there and travel on a whim? My parents are 70 years old, definitely not proficient users of social media, and they are planning to spend December in some random town in the middle of nowhere Portugal that they stumbled upon in a previous trip. They like to travel places by train so I'm guessing they just hopped on a train from Lisbon and checked out random towns
fi_nding_a_way@reddit
This is a great plan, good luck to your folks!
ReflexPoint@reddit
Move to Congo now because expats drive the prices go up!
IcyDrink7454@reddit
Google places with low cost of living (compared to your income) and generous visa policies, then find out if the life quality, safety, climate, etc. are to your liking, and just go there. If you visit the place and like it, just move there long-term and work remotely. Don't tell anyone how good the place is (you can dm me tho).
ReachPlayful@reddit
You don’t
objevt2@reddit
/r/outside
386DX-40@reddit
This. There are places in this world that don't make sense for most people, but make the most sense for some people. You have to discover yourself to discover them.
Historical_Guest6979@reddit
Love your phrasing!! Succinct!
RagsyLAX@reddit
South Balkan countries are still cheap, but they are also not yet EU.
Silent_Waltz1947@reddit
True, Portugal is not cheap at all anymore. I am Portuguese but only go there once in a while and seriously considering in stopping because it is really not worth my while.
ShelterWestern8320@reddit
Thank you for the HONESTY! It’s the truth!
Happy_Tomatillo_3348@reddit
You blame the 3 Americans who moved here, ignoring the fact of the numerous cultures that have flocked here and are demographically replacing you.
SuspectDesigner5616@reddit
Felt in the same trap, also super corrupt, crazy traffic, super expensive cars, 1200 euro for a T2? F crazy...
jb4477@reddit
Also, in 2024 the alt-right political party similar to Trump gained 50 seats and significant power.
PenHopeful9469@reddit
Not just Americans. According to the country's own stats, Americans make up a small percentage that are moving there. The majority are from other European countries.
efremov_denis@reddit
Portugal is only good if you live here and work for the US or England. But working here and living here, it's impossible.
MJoaoAma@reddit
Life here is Impossible...young portuguese people is leaving the country.
JRRJR337@reddit
On top of that many stay illegally when told they cannot renew their visa
drsilverpepsi@reddit
The ignorance involved in this "magical" force making things more expensive is shocking. I hope people will be guided a bit more by science in the future, there is no magic involved. The influx of crazy amounts of people into Bangkok for example doesn't drive up prices. Tokyo rents don't go up. Guess what? Portugal and Spain - look them up - neither country builds any new houses. What do you THINK will happen when you do absolutely nothing - make not the smallest adjustment or accomodation - for a growing population? Yes, prices go up. But that was a conscious choice to not build and keep prices flat.
Round-Holiday1406@reddit
The number of Americans in Portugal is too small to have any meaningful impact. Also not every single one of them is rich.
guitarlisa@reddit
Yes, I think the official number of expats in Portugal is around 10,000. That shouldn't push numbers in any significant way.
_Administrator_@reddit
Meanwhile Portugese make up some of the highest percentage of foreigners in Central European countries. But we’re not complaining.
ZaGaGa@reddit
Outdated data.
dutchyardeen@reddit
The data isn't outdated. These are the nationalities of those moving to Portugal by country according to SEF:
Brazil (233,138) United Kingdom (36,639) Cape Verde (35,744) India (34,232 Italy (33,707) Angola (30,417) France (27,614) Ukraine (26,898) Romania (23,967) Nepal (23,441)
The US doesn't even make the Top 10.
ZaGaGa@reddit
Wait for 2023 data. No point discussing further without data.
dutchyardeen@reddit
You haven't provided any data.
RedditorsGetChills@reddit
Count the times they mentioned Americans to win a prize!
ZaGaGa@reddit
Outdated data
Warm-Function2746@reddit
Isn't it true that Portugal is going to start taxing immigrants 48% on their pension, social secutiry, income?
Far-Training4141@reddit
it's fucking fiat-money. Our complete money-system is a scam and we all get fucked until it collapses which it will.
Same here in Germany. Not as bad as elswhere but we are heading there especially in the big cities (Hamburg, Berlin, Munich, Cologne)
Ella0508@reddit
The influx of expats, particularly American expats, isn’t solely to blame for the higher COL in Portugal. Inflation has been bad everywhere, housing starts suffered because of the pandemic, etc. Lots of reasons.
Techters@reddit
Portugal issued 200 digital nomad visas in 2022 and apparently those 200 people are ruining the entire economy.
thyriki@reddit
That’s in two and a half months, not 2022. But even if it was correct, there are 16000 digital nomads in Lisbon alone.
Common sense helps me believe, most of these would have a considerably bigger buying power than ye olde average Portuguese local, and thus one of the obvious reasons for price increases. It’s always preferable to rent my flat to an immigrant who can spend 1500 than to a local whose salary is 900, liquid. If there’s enough demand to make this decision at scale, you can imagine what happens to the cost of rent. The market “adapts”.
It’s a problem and we can try to be reductive about it, but we can’t ignore the facts on this one.
Excellent-Code5448@reddit
Digital nomads are not the problem though, the problem is lack of new constructions, the demand increased but the supply didn't because it's almost impossible building something from scratch because of the bureaoucracy, most people renovate because it's easier but will never be enough to answer the demand we have. People need felxibility to build more.
thyriki@reddit
I believe it’s a nuanced mixture of the two. Uncontrolled migration has its drawbacks to a country’s residents in this case, and should indeed be mitigated by the government. Obviously, without digital nomads we would not have such an extreme spike in rent (Portuguese salaries cannot match these rents, and it’s obvious it’s not to accommodate these salaries), but the government is also the one offering tax relief to new residents, as well as not taking the current country’s population in consideration legislatively.
In my perspective, digital nomads are part of the problem, but not from ill intent. And it’s an issue enabled by the government.
ReflexPoint@reddit
" there are 16000 digital nomads in Lisbon alone."
Okay, but there's almost 3 million people in the Lisbon metro area. 16,000 people is not a large number, about half a percent of the total.
thyriki@reddit
That’s the whole metropolitan area of Lisbon which includes several cities, not the city - the value you’re looking for is ~500k. Admittedly, 16k/500k=3.2% is not tremendous, but taking the considerable financial inequality, I hope you can understand there is an impact.
There is a clear number of Portuguese residents leaving the capital, as of these 500k residents, now 300k are not Portuguese. In the last 3 years alone, 56k left. The reason is clear: the cost of life is not sustainable for a local. The influx of immigrants makes up for those who left, though, who one can assume is able to cover these costs.
I don’t stand by any side here, be it in favour or against what is occurring in Lisbon, but again: there are more than enough facts to paint a honest view.
Oblachko_O@reddit
But the problem is not immigrants, but the ability to see the upcoming housing crisis. Almost (if not all) developed countries failed here. So still, 3.2% can't buy the whole city, don't they? And plenty of landlords buying more property to rent it for expensive prices are also a part of the problem (and even bigger as they buy places massively compared to immigrants, who buy one house/apartment for themselves).
thyriki@reddit
I agree! With a few caveats. - as you said, the issue truly is the upcoming housing crisis. Immigration is good, but whatever capital obtained from this surge in immigration is not well managed at a governmental level, and Lisbon is known for blocking the construction of new habitations quite aggressively. This is another valid reason that increases rent, besides the increasing number of those with higher buying power. - You mention landlords and their increase in property owned. I agree. This also comes from the lax rules in Portugal - virtually anyone can purchase real estate, and foreign investment keeps increasing YoY (in 2021, foreigners bought ~38% of property, which also plays with the increase of hostels, AirBnBs, summer houses, etc). There’s two concerns here. 1. Steep Increase in rent. 2. Inability to obtain property as a National. These concerns are interlinked. I do believe a stronger stance is needed (“housing is for the people”) but from a governmental point of view, it would mean impacting a primary source of revenue: foreign investment. This is about where the context I have ends. If you have anything factual to add, happy to learn.
Oblachko_O@reddit
I am living in the Netherlands and here they try to fight with the landlords in a specific way:
A house, which is under 500k€ can be purchased only by people who don't have a house yet. In this case immigrants still can bring money, locals may try to buy house and landlords can buy cheap houses purely for rent. This is not on a country level, only for some big cities, but still a viable solution.
The problem with immigrants may be in a way, that houses in Portugal are quite cheap compared with countries like the Netherlands, Germany or Switzerland. In the Netherlands it is less the case as most immigrants really don't have so much money to buy houses, so it affects the crisis (majority of immigrants are coming from small income countries, so they can't buy houses in general). But the minimal salary for such immigrants is quite high (high skilled migrants, who have specific working visa and come outside of Europe), which indeed affects the rental market.
thyriki@reddit
Thank you for the context - this is extremely interesting!
wanderingdev@reddit
you think every nomad that goes places does so on a nomad visa? people who get visas are only a very small % of nomads that go somewhere.
Better-Suit6572@reddit
I would love to see one, just one person, post an economics regression paper showing the effects of US immigration on prices where they live.
Comprehensive_Link67@reddit
American didn;t even crack the top 10 of those immigrating to Portugal in 2022. In 2023, it looks like they may be 9th or 10th. The majorty of those moving to Portugal come from Brazil or other EU nations.
ElSuprimoGrande767@reddit
I have been to Porto and Lisbon.
Most expats i saw were NOT Americans !
Most were ( for some reason) Brits.
Can't confuse the accents 😀
amoryamory@reddit
It's very close, it's very cheap, and Brits have always gone there
adoreroda@reddit
I was kind of thinking this as well, and I would've assumed expats would have the most influence outside of big cities and more in less developed or rural areas which is where a lot of Brits decided to retire
I remember reading articles they were doing it in such a systematic area where there were basically entire towns within Spain, France, etc. that only spoke English because the residents there were primarily British (or the richest residents were British) retirees.
Truthfully speaking though, expats can be a problem, but I think rarely is it that one single nationality is a problem. Americans already have it hard as is staying in the EU and there are tonnes of other cheap alternatives they can have access to without the hassle, so many EU nationals from elsewhere will hop on it wayy before Americans.
GiannAkane303@reddit
https://www.expat.com/en/expat-mag/8427-how-are-expats-affecting-real-estate-prices-in-popular-destinations.htmlhttps://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/are-us-expats-driving-up-housing-prices-in-mexico/2681771https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-05-12/california-expats-portugal-relocation-lisbonhttps://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-escaping-pricey-cities-bring-higher-housing-costs-inflation-with-them-a3118424https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/22/business/mexico-city-work-from-home-us-expats/index.html
szayl@reddit
Yep.
People complain that Americans are pushing up prices in Spain but Americans are a drop in the bucket compared to the British, Germans, Dutch, French, Scandinavian, Russian, etc influx to the country. It's just easy to say "America bad"
nonula@reddit
It’s not solely the fault of foreigners, but their deep pockets sure haven’t helped the situation for locals. Why would a landlord rent to a local when they could hold out for someone who (for the D7, for instance) feels they need to lock in a 12-month lease on an apartment by paying all 12 months in advance, plus an extra deposit or two?
dutchyardeen@reddit
Property speculation by foreign companies and short term vacation rentals are the biggest causes of increased prices. That's why the government is taking steps to limit the creation of short term rentals. They're also considering legislation that could potentially require property speculators to put empty properties up for rent.
Ella0508@reddit
That policy of requiring a 12-month lease is not the choice of the expats, it’s something imposed on them by your government. It’s not about “feeling the need,” it’s an actual requirement. And my guess I the landlords still have many more locals to choose from than expats to hold out for — US immigrants are hardly outnumbering locals yet.
ReachPlayful@reddit
Ofcourse they require a 12 month lease. Why else would someone move to a country without having a fixed address? And the foreigners with money are coming here offering to pay 12 months in advance so it’s not a government thing. It’s them try to get in front of the locals disregarding every one else
Ella0508@reddit
Any American who can pay rent for 12 months in advance is probably renting far above the price range of middle-class locals. I belong to a group for people considering a move to Portugal, and most are more concerned about loopholes in the lease that would let them cancel because they’re not yet sure where they want to live. So no, they’re not giving the landlord a year in advance if they don’t have to.
ReachPlayful@reddit
Reason why foreigners pay that many months in advance is because landlord usually require a “fiador” so they resort to that to compensate. And also yes middle class locals do compete with Americans as well. Me myself had to compete with Americans on normal prices apartments in Lisbon very recently
sagalian@reddit
Not every apartment of Lisbon, Porto rented out for foreigners, is it? Then why would they make the price that high? I believe progress are higher everywhere now.
crani0@reddit
You should know that Portuguese people have a very "This only happens in Portugal" mentality and are in capable of understanding that the vast majority of the issues are just because it is a relatively poor country compared to the rest of Europe. Seriously to this day people still blame the effects of the American Housing Crisis on Portuguese politicians.
DC_MrAdamsMorgan@reddit
Happening in Madrid as well. Rent is ridiculous compared to the average Spanish salary. Property values are even worse.
X-FrEaK@reddit
Housing in Lisbon is more expensive than Madrid nowadays and Madrid's average net salary is two times more than Lisbon. The problem is not even comparable. Lisbon in terms of rent to income must be in San Francisco levels or something like that
DC_MrAdamsMorgan@reddit
I did not know this. Makes me wonder how sustainable the whole thing is.
ZaGaGa@reddit
It's not, locals are leaving in mass , it's the biggest migration from the capital I've ever seen. Health services are collapsing because people are leaving and it's impossible to enlist new profissionals, students are leaving the studies industry is canceling projects and companies are moving headquarters out of Lisbon.
And the problem is spreading the rest of the country...
X-FrEaK@reddit
This. Last year alone, 120k people with an university degree left the country (I left 5 years ago). We literally pay taxes to educate our youth so they can go to work in Northern Europe lol
MyBlueBlazerBlack@reddit
Same sort of thing is happening in Canada. I can't remember the exact numbers but I read here somewhere that entire graduating classes of Universities like Waterloo (particularly in the tech fields) already have job offers from companies in the U.S. vastly exceeding compensation levels of Canadian companies. Majority of the graduates have no intention of working in the country that raised them.
The funny part is; absolutely no one blames them at all, because we would more than likely do the same thing in their situation.
Delicious_Fresh@reddit
It's the same in New Zealand. Ask any university student what they'll do when they graduate, and they'll give you a list of the countries they're planning to move to (plot twist: NZ is not on any graduate's wish list).
Young people only stay in NZ if mum and dad buy them a house or let them live in a cabin in their backyard. Foreigners move to NZ if mum and dad give them a large chunk of money to buy a house with, otherwise it's not worth it.
X-FrEaK@reddit
Same thing with Portugal, no one blames them(us) . We had a prime minister who incentivized Portuguese people to emigrate. And that was probably the best prime minister we had in the last decades, imagine the rest 😂 (spoiler alert: one was jailed)
MyBlueBlazerBlack@reddit
Seems like it's a rocky situation no matter where you go.
NorthVilla@reddit
Source for that stat?
120k was like peak crisis numbers in 2014. The data I have for last year says 78k. What is your source for 120?
X-FrEaK@reddit
https://rr.sapo.pt/noticia/economia/2023/08/10/emigracao-de-licenciados-e-uma-calamidade-dava-para-pagar-36-aeroportos-do-montijo/342389/
crani0@reddit
It's been "collapsing" for over two decades now and yet somehow it managed a whole ass pandemic
NorthVilla@reddit
Not to mention all the things people complain about re: housing like rich foreigners moving in, golden visas, etc... Have literally saved the health service from complete and total collapse. Back in 2015, it was looking rreaaaallly dicey.
There's a lot of "lamúria" so to speak, or just like a general malaise, when (especially) young people talk about the problems in Portugal. It's very unfocused. I do 100% understand the struggle though, and it sucks, just the analysis is often poor.
ZaGaGa@reddit
Aguentamos tão bem que temos dos maiores crescimentos da mortalidade durante a pandemia, mas enfim.
É complicado dar exemplos porque é informação que ainda não é pública, aliás alguns processos vão demorar a anos a se concretizar e só aí vão ser notícia.
Não me peças para explicar, o facto é que não há mais mão de obra barata em Lisboa, muito menos em Oeiras, para contratar vão ter de ir buscar as pessoas às empresas ao lado, que por sua vez ficam sem RH.
crani0@reddit
[Carece de fonte]
Okay...
ZaGaGa@reddit
No telemóvel não consigo andar a passear no site do INE e comp. mas melhor vais ao observador tens lá o podcast do contra corrente que se chama 3 anos de Covid: lições a tirar ou algo parecido, o Google vai te dar o link de certeza, lembro-me que introduzem o programa com os números e comparações com a Europa que é suficiente para te fazer rever essas ideias de sucesso.
crani0@reddit
Nope
X-FrEaK@reddit
Good comment. Although I said "this". Not everything is true indeed. I also dont think companies are leaving, although there was this famous comments of Cloudflare's CEO about portuguese bureaucracy. And also true that the SNS has been shit way before this.
Nevertheless the brain drain is undeniable and the amount of portuguese that the best they can live in is Odivelas, Amadora, Loures and even in some places (like Colinas do Cruzeiro or Quinta da Malvarosa - which is even further away) the prices are ridiculous
crani0@reddit
It's hard to say what is and what isn't true when we have very little granularity on the data.
And I also remember a minister getting in touch with him ASAP
Absolutely not, it regularly ranks in the top 20 systems around by the WHO. Last time it was 17th and before the pandemic it ranked 12th. The problem is underfunding.
The only time Portugal had a positive migration flux was in 2019, literally every other year from the time of the first republic onwards there has always been a mass migration movement, Portugal always had an emigrant culture. The "brain drain" as you describe it is just confounding variables of higher education attainment in Portugal and the regular migration pattern.
This has been true way before the supposed "brain drain". Lisbon has grown over the years and places like Santos or Graça were not considered to be part of Lisbon city and even then those places were out of reach from people.
YuanBaoTW@reddit
That will make it even more popular with a certain segment of Americans. They love nothing more than to live in hideously expensive shitholes (that are shitholes because of atrociously bad governance/policy).
It gives them something to talk about while they eat $25 avocado toast and take a lovely stroll on feces-riddled streets.
extinctpolarbear@reddit
You know this is not because of Americans right? This is because of immigration and tourism in general - the same is happening here in Spain. I live in Valencia which has also been praised as the new Lisbon and rents are rising way above the affordability for most people. But walk in the streets and it’s not 90% Americans you hear. Yea, on a Reddit expat subreddit it will be Mainly Americans talking about it. But it’s people from everywhere - other parts of Europe - especially from the north. Rich Russians and Ukrainians in the past two years can be seen in lots of more affluent parts. But the main influx in spain is still by FAR people from Latin America. And I believe last I checked it was Brazilians in Portugal. It’s a simple supply and demand issue coupled of course with the complete over tourism. I remember when I was in Lisbon in January and pretty much half of the street we were staying at were tourist apartments. It’s not a few thousand Americans that are driving up prices of an entire country, it’s mainly bad politics and lack of regulation driving this insanity.
Childofglass@reddit
My husband is Albanian and people complain about foreigners living there and driving up cost of living as well.
I’m in southern Ontario and we blame the fast rise in housing prices on people from Toronto buying investment properties here.
It’s happening everywhere for the same reason.
Great_husky_63@reddit
Hehe I thought you were talking of San Francisco, California. :-)
X-FrEaK@reddit
You can confirm this in numbeo.com btw!
crani0@reddit
Do you have an actual source for that that isn't the bogus HousingAnywhere analysis that has been floating around?
X-FrEaK@reddit
I actually left another comment with the source: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Portugal&city1=Lisbon&country2=Spain&city2=Madrid
crani0@reddit
How can I know the profile of the people responding to this? And how many? Because without any of that these numbers are fairly meaningless
X-FrEaK@reddit
This is crowd sourced and it says on the bottom how many submissions there are
crani0@reddit
It provides no breakdown of the profiles (typology and number) that are providing these values and I dunno how it can be considered 100% if it is just crowdsourced and there is no third party validating this info.
X-FrEaK@reddit
I can tell you it's much more accurate than the housing anywhere fake news lol. I live in Amsterdam, I am from Lisbon, I travel a lot, and numbeo it's quite accurate.
crani0@reddit
So it's a "trust me bro"? I mean if that is all it takes then I actually lived in Arroios up until 2 years ago and can tell you my rent was well below the stated average. I'm also Portuguese and was on average salary wise, so I can tell you that it is not at all accurate from my experience.
X-FrEaK@reddit
lol...man I have my own house in Lisbon, T2 in Prior Velho, far away from the city center. I rent that same house for 800-900. In Expo studios go for 900-1100 (one of my best friends "owns" around 40 properties in Expo), which pretty much aligns with Numbeo. And you want me to trust one guy on reddit because his rent is not according to what I know and what Numbeo shows? Sure "bro"
crani0@reddit
I'm not the one making the claims, burden of proof is on you. And you are also "one guy" on reddit and considering that Expo is one of the most expensive zones in Lisbon and your "friend" is renting below the stated average then you are actively contradicting your own point.
X-FrEaK@reddit
Expo is on the same spectrum as the municipalities in the center (as Numbeo splits by city center and outside the city center): source https://cnnportugal.iol.pt/casas/precos/precos-das-casas-sobem-10-em-lisboa-e-no-porto-mas-ha-subidas-de-30-em-algumas-freguesias/20230202/63dbe7860cf2665294d3c749
So you can extrapolate Expo to the city center. So if a studio in expo costs 1000, a T1 costs upwards of 1200. Do the same for the city center and you have pretty much the values Numbeo has. And im talking about the prices my friends lists them on booking.com not the one he rents it for.
crani0@reddit
That article is about housing prices not rentals. This isn't extrapolation, it's straight up taking stuff out of your ass
X-FrEaK@reddit
Man... Since you're clearly are a teenager Portuguese troll that goes around reddit asking for proof without every presenting ONE piece of said proof, i'm gonna lay it down for you. You are contradicting my facts (which come from the fact that I myself, am a landlord in Lisbon, as are my parents, and from crowdsourced websites like Numbeo) with 'my rent in Arroios was smaller'... Are you an engineer or have you studied statistics?
Point number 2,the fact you even defend the SNS speaks volume of you biased view and how much you want to defend Lísbon. So let me lay it out for you as well. After years of using the private healthcare system, I decided to give a shot to the SNS since I was told it was not as bad as I thought.
What happened was that my Centro de Saúde didn't even allow me to make telephone/email appointments. I had to go IN PERSON(which for someone living in the Netherlands is just third world country-ish) to try and book an appointment. After one hour standing in the same place I gave up. My mom eventually did it for me when I came back to Amsterdam.
When I went to the appointment I was told it would take 5 months to get an appointment for an eye doctor and I would receive a LETTER(LOL) in the mail confirming the same appointment. This was in June, it's August I have no confirmation of this appointment. And I was even told I was lucky because during the pandemic the waiting times was 2 years. So you can use all your rankings, but this is happening in 2023 in Lisbon lol.
Could also mention when I tried to go to Hospital de Cascais a month ago, and after 3 hours I gave up and my ex girlfriend words were (this would be unnaceptable in Finland - where she's from).
So stay in Portugal for all your life , keep thinking everything is going great with the country (and mainly in Lisbon) and life will be awesome for you 'bro'.
crani0@reddit
If you don't understand (or rather pretend not to) how 'burden of proof' works and paint that has a "teenage troll" then I can only assume you are a toddler that doesn't like it when he is expected to act like an adult and are just going into a tantrum.
"Trust my family bro"
You have provided nothing but anedoctal evidence, I have provided you with the same standard of information to dispute it (but I actually made an effort to stick to the topic that you clearly didn't when you posted an article that isn't about rents but house prices). I'm not the one setting the level here.
I dunno, is that how you would describe your "trust me bro" logic? I'm just applying the same standard and if you don't like that then you can provide actual sources to back up your claims.
Cool story bro
Cool story bro x2
Now try actual verifiable facts... Or not, you can just continue the tantrum until the discussion is fully off track... You know, like a teenage troll would do after they have been shown to be talking out their ass
X-FrEaK@reddit
Well...im even wasting the time to give you more and more proof, so you can understand how zero clue you have about what you're talking about. So here we go: https://www.idealista.pt/media/relatorios-preco-habitacao/arrendamento/lisboa/lisboa/
Parque das Nações 19,4 €/m2 Arroios 22,8 €/m2 (picked specially for you)
In another website (https://www.dn.pt/dinheiro/saiba-quais-sao-as-tres-freguesias-de-lisboa-com-os-precos-de-venda-de-casas-mais-elevados-no-verao-14103121.html), and with data from last year :
"Já no que diz respeito a apartamentos para arrendamento, o estudo da Casafari indica que as freguesias lisboetas de Santo António, Avenidas Novas e Parque das Nações registam os preços médios mais elevados: 1646 euros, 1582 euros e 1396 euros, respetivamente, enquanto a Penha de França, Ajuda e o Beato têm os preços médios de arrendamento mais baixos, situando-se entre os 865 e os 764 euros."
So once again yes...Parque das Nações can be extrapolated to the center as its not even as expensive as the most expensive municipalities.
Also as I said before...my house is in Prior Velho, not even Lisbon, and its already 800-900 euros of rent.
If I had to pick one...I'd say you are a lawyer..
Be sure to keep contradicting me without presenting absolutely any facts. I can do this all day
crani0@reddit
Bro, mas tu estás a gozar com quem? Ou não sabes ler? Sim, isto é uma perda de tempo do caralho quando nem um parágrafo consegues passar sem te contradizer. Aprende a ler primeiro, depois podes vir para o reddit entreter com histórias da carochinha
X-FrEaK@reddit
Excelente discussão com uma pessoa que pediu provas, foram-lhe dadas, com source, e no fim "aprende ler, só te contradizes, ficamos por aqui". Sure bro :thumbs-up:
crani0@reddit
Sim, deste provas que a zona da Expo é literalmente a terceira mais cara de Lisboa quando dizias que nem era das mais caras. Diz que de facto comer gelados com a testa é bastante refrescante. As melhoras
X-FrEaK@reddit
Eu dei-me ao trabalho de dar duas fontes, distintas para nao cometer o mesmo erro que a HousingAnywhere.
É óbvio que o Parque das Nações é das freguesias mais caras de Lisboa (guess what...foi onde eu cresci e donde sai há apenas 5 anos).
Não sei se te lembras da discussão original, mas era se os dados do Numbeo eram confiaveis ou não. Eu disse que nao eram 100% reliable, mas eram um bom ponto de referencia (ate concordei contigo que o artigo da HousingAnywhere foi fake news ao mais alto nivel).
Dei-te o exemplo do Parque das Nações porque é onde conheço melhor o real estate. E com estas fontes estou-te a provar que o Parque das Nações tem preços comparaveis ao centro de Lisboa (mais barato que Santa Misericordia e Avenidas Novas) e que estudios (T0) na expo na zona do Vasco da Gama custam pra cima de 1000 euros (já passei o ano e tudo num desses T0 no edificio Panoramico). Se um estudio custa mais de 1000, um T1 há-de custar 1200 e por aí acima.
Esse valor de 1200 está completamente de acordo com o que está no Numbeo. O que é que está a falhar aqui? lol
crani0@reddit
Decidasse
X-FrEaK@reddit
Lol um colega meu tem uma empresa com 40 apartamentos pra sub arrendamento só no Parque das Nações e uma amiga minha trabalha na Century 20 no Parque das Nações...
A questão é...que conheces tu? Onde estão os teus números? Consegues provar que o Numbeo está errado? Eu sem conseguir provar (isso é impossivel obviamente), já te dei pelo menos uma linha de raciocinio que vai dar perto dos numeros crowd sourced do Numbeo.
crani0@reddit
Ai é!? Olha o meu tio ~~trabalha na Nintendo~~ é chefe da Century 21 no Parque das Nações e arruma com todos os teus amigos juntos! /s
Tu já não tens qualquer credibilidade mas adoro esta tentativa de fazer alguém acreditar que percebes do assunto mas a tua fonte é... O Numbeo. Com tanto serviço de Property Management que podias dizer que tu ou o teu amigo consultam... O Numbeo. Isto é mesmo sinal de que as tuas "qualificações" foram evoluindo com a conversa.
O desespero, menos. Quando tropeças nos teus próprios pés e tentas inverter o ónus da prova é mesmo amadorismo. Enfim, boa sorte para a próxima e beijinhos ao primo de Viseu
X-FrEaK@reddit
Eu não tropecei em absolutamente nada (apesar de perceber o porque de dizeres isso). Tu é que simplesmente nao queres aceitar os meus números e achas eu sou um keyboard warrior. Peço imensa desculpa que não te possa mostrar uma factura dos apartamentos do meu amigo ou a carteira de clientes da minha amiga. Não me conheces de lado nenhum, nao tens que acreditar, óbvio, mas isso é o que eu conheço, é disso que falo. Gosto muito pouco de ter discussões sobre o qual não sei absolutamente nada, e sempre fui conhecido por muita coisa, por mentiroso, não.
Também sou todo ouvidos pra me dares os teus números e não tenho problema nenhum em admitir que estou errado, mas tens que fazer mais do que mostrar peito (e sim foste tu que começaste com o discurso mais bélico com o "trust me bro?")
Se tu achas que eu ia perder tempo a inventar algo tao especifico como ter uma ex Finlandesa e ter ido ao hospital de Cascais com ela mostra bem que tens trust issues lol.
Mas parece-me que moras na Holanda também, aparece um dia em Amesterdão e eu tenho todo o gosto em saber quanto afinal pagavas tu por um T1 em Arroios.
LeadershipSpirited15@reddit
Bem estamos aqui a falar de níveis budistas de paciência minha gente.
X-FrEaK@reddit
É exactamente isso que quero dizer, por nao ser a mais cara, podes fazer a extrapolação pras freguesias do centro e ter um baseline mais ou menos proximo. Quanto muito a minha teoria falhava por minorar o valor do Numbeo e nao por majorar
crani0@reddit
E agora passamos do plural para singular, muita bom mas não faço ideia quem esperas realmente convencer com esta conversa. Ainda vamos descobrir que afinal a namorada da Finlândia era o primo de Viseu
A tua teoria falha porque quando a narrativa não cola mudas a conversa, inventar não é o teu forte.
X-FrEaK@reddit
Ok
GiannAkane303@reddit
user Ceani0 suffers from this new kind of negationism.
szayl@reddit
Valencia, Málaga and Granada are next up after Portugal falls through for people...
Artistic_Frosting_44@reddit
But how will people get visas in Spain? Isn't that the appeal of Portugal? For Americans at least?
caesarapi@reddit
Spain just approved late last year a digital nomad/passive income visa, basically the same that most Americans use to come to Portugal.
Comprehensive_Link67@reddit
And with the ex-pat friendly NHR tax scheme being discontinued in Portugal, Spain is now as, if not more, cost effective for migration.
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
Is rent higher in Madrid than Malaga and Barcelona ?
akiestar@reddit
Málaga is cheaper. Barcelona and the Balearic Islands (all of them, not just Ibiza) are more expensive.
alitoch@reddit
I don't know where you got your numbers from, but in terms of real estate Lisbon is clearly more expensive than Barcelona (and Madrid): https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2022-10-04/lisbon-second-most-expensive-city-to-buy-a-home/70859
akiestar@reddit
I’m comparing Málaga, Barcelona and Ibiza to Madrid, not to Lisbon. I’m very aware that Lisbon is far more expensive than any major Spanish city.
tess_philly@reddit
Why is Malaga cheap? It sounds like heaven as compared to Lisbon, certainly.
alitoch@reddit
Because people aren't greedy AF in Spain unlike in Portugal, they've learned from the 2008 crisis. Incidentally, that's the kind of thing (amongst others) that makes Spain/Malaga heaven in comparison.
alitoch@reddit
Sorry, my bad! I totally misunderstood your message.
economicwhale@reddit
I hear prices per square meter in Madrid are similar to Warsaw, Poland. Surely can’t be that bad?
DC_MrAdamsMorgan@reddit
I suppose it is worse in other parts as I’ve been informed in this chat. But I don’t understand how the average earning Spaniard can afford it, however.
duTemplar@reddit
Don’t look at Turkey for prices…. Oof!
Vegetable_Junior@reddit
Surely Turkey is still very cheap?!
Blackkwidow1328@reddit
Obviously, you haven't watched the news. I live in Turkey (expat working here). Last year, I bought groceries for my family at around 800 TL a week. Now, the same groceries cost 1700 to 1800 TL. Back in 2018 when I visited Turkey, 1 USD = around 5 or 6 lira. Now 1 USD = 27 lira. Everyone is suffering from the disaster of the falling currency. So, cheap if you're coming with USD right now, but a disaster for all of us here. And yet they "elected" the same person who did this to them and has been in power for 20 years...
Unlucky_Mess3884@reddit
I'm sorry to hear that. I actually just returned to the US from Turkiye (just a vacation, 2 weeks) and I was kind of surprised about the prices--they really weren't that cheap, even by US standards. When I did my own groceries at Carrefour it was okay but restaurants and goods were not particularly cheap. Chalked it up to being in touristy areas, so I'm sorry to hear about the inflation being a general problem.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Theres absolutely no way I'd ever accept a contract paid in the currency of a developing country.
Blackkwidow1328@reddit
Turks don't get a choice. Some of us take 50% local currency which is common for many types of contracts (a percentage paid in local currency). When I worked in Egypt, I got 80% USD, 20% local.
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
I don’t think I can vote for anyone who has been in power longer than 5 years. By 7 years it’s definitely time to go
Blackkwidow1328@reddit
It's not like it was a real election, really.
Worth_Jackfruit_4568@reddit
It's a legit election.
AppropriateStick518@reddit
Housing isn’t “cheap” anywhere anymore.
No_Bullfrog_3784@reddit
Living isn’t cheap anymore. I really feel it’s a global conspiracy to keep people who aren’t wealthy, working until they die just to be able to afford a modest lifestyle. Food, rent, mortgage, fuel (gas/petrol) is all way more expensive ever been and salaries/wages are not keeping up. Meanwhile, there has never been more wealthy people in the world. WTF?
AdditionalDog1444@reddit
it's not a conspiracy, it's called capitalism
No_Bullfrog_3784@reddit
What’s your answer then to capitalism? What form of government do you endorse?
Independent-Raise467@reddit
Singapore has done a pretty good job I must say on public housing. 77% of Singaporeans live in socialised public housing and it is affordable and comfortable.
It means taking away the ability for the 1% to hoard land which is the root cause of the problem. Get rid of most private land ownership and make housing a socialised service (like the police, hospitals, military etc).
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
Those desolate Italian villages with €1 houses
duTemplar@reddit
LOL. Hell no.
CowhideHorder@reddit
Why? I was looking at the prices in Istanbul and was shocked how cheap they were. You can buy an appartment in Istanbul for 20-30k in the lesser known area’s and like 60-100k in the popular area’s. If you compare this to other countries it’s peanuts.
duTemplar@reddit
Your numbers are way off.
Except as monthly rents in Lira maybe. Sale prices have skyrocketed and rents increase the maximum 25% every year they are allowed to. Grocery prices, aside from water bottles, are the same although the selection and quality is way less than a comparable spot in the US..
3 years ago, a tank of gas was 360tl. It’s now 2000tl.
Illustrious-Wall1689@reddit
If you’re finding apartments for 60k in popular areas then I’d be concerned it’s either a scam or will be reduced to rubble in the next big earthquake they’re expecting (predicted to occur in the next 5-10 years, I believe).
-glencoco-@reddit
You saying “100k in the popular areas” makes me think you don’t know where the popular areas are.
neo-levanten@reddit
You may want to check again, these numbers are completely off.
juwisan@reddit
I agree that’s it’s especially bad in places that have been known to be cheap but it’s not isolated to those places. I would say it happens in every major city in europe. I get the feeling that it is less of an issue in Northern Europe where countries like Denmark seem to have strict laws when it comes to foreigners buying property but everywhere else it’s a problem. I live in Berlin. 10-15 years ago Berlin was dirt cheap. Today rent prices are ten times what they used to be then.
VoyagerVII@reddit
The Netherlands had never had an easy time with housing -- they've been waging war against the sea for every square foot of land since time immemorial. But it's become a lot worse recently. Even rental apartments are going at above asking price, which I've never seen happen. People will offer to pay €100-200 over list price just to get their application on the landlord's desk ahead of the other fifty potential tenants who applied.
ccx941@reddit
Happening here in the US as well. The apartment I’m in was $850/month and in the span of 5+ years has gone up to $1907/month. My salary has not matched that increase and I’ve had to take on a roommate to survive.
Clear-Structure5590@reddit
It's happening everywhere because the causes of this are rooted in systems that operate on a global scale. I recently left my city in the US for a different one only because I could not afford the rents. People are leaving my new city for other places because they now can't afford the rents. Many of the Americans moving to Portugal probably wouldn't if they could live well in the US. We can all go round in a circle migrating and blaming each other, or we can collectively recognize that treating housing as an investment vehicle was a mistake that destroys lives and communities, and say no more.
anal-cocaine-delta@reddit
If we are gonna have crazy inflation we need a law tieing pay raises to the yearly inflation rate.
Inflation isn't low. Look at the cost of rent and other bills.
1s20s@reddit
This absolute fact generally does not go over well when the topic at hand is PT.
Because reasons.
But, yeah.
Electrical_Turn7@reddit
And in Greece. Athens is seeing rents of 10 euros per square metre. You would need an average Greek salary just to rent an 80 square metre flat in an ok area. Too bad you won’t be able to heat or light it though, and I hope you’re a nudist lightarian, as there is no budget left for food or clothing either.
ReachPlayful@reddit
Rental is in average cheaper than Lisbon and net salaries in Lisbon are at least double than Lisbon so although Madrid might have a problem, it’s not really a big problem on portugal point of view
X-FrEaK@reddit
Housing in Lisbon is more expensive than Madrid nowadays and Madrid's average net salary is two times more than Lisbon. The problem is not even comparable. Lisbon in terms of rent to income must be in San Francisco levels or something like that
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Controversial comment: None of us have a god given right to live where we grew up.
A Portuguese person can move to country X to avoid a poor salary if they can't outcompete wealthy retirees.
Tatoon83@reddit
Ethnic cleansing with extra steps.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Aren't I advocating not discriminating on the grounds of race or nationality.
It's far from the only place that gives young people a good old boot to leave. My home area (NE England) is not dissimilar. Poorest bit of the country. Bad wages, not many skilled jobs.
Tatoon83@reddit
Except we're not part of your country, we are our own country with our own nationality and sovereignty. We have our history in this land and our own language that developed here and is and will be the ONLY official language.
We do have an exclusive right to live in OUR country as we have had for over a thousand years. If you want, with whatever means, to drive Portuguese people out of Portugal with foreigners taking their place then that already has a name. It's called ethnic cleansing.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
I don't want to "drive Portugese people out of Portugal", I just want everyone to live where they want as long as they aren't a drain on society (which obviously most young Portuguese are not).
You have to remember that restrictions from economic migrants who contribute would be exceptionally damaging to Portuguese people, given it would almost certainly be reciprocated and Portuguese people migrate in huge numbers (and good on you for doing so).
1 in 40 Portuguese live in Switzerland alone.
Corresponding number for Britons is around 1 in 2000
Tatoon83@reddit
But if everyone wants to come and live in Portugal then we won't be able to live in our own country, won't we? There's only so much room.
Nevertheless, you can want whatever you want. This is not your country and it is not up to you to decide. It's our society, we have the right to be a drain in it as much as we want. It's a nation-state not a corporation. I'm a citizen and I get to decide. You get to decide in your own country.
I'm not discussing this with you any longer. You can rationalize ethnic cleansing as much as you want in the privacy of your own head.
You fail to understand most Portuguese migrants don't want to migrate. We are being forced to do so. You don't understand...or most likely don't care...how many families and relationships are being broken in the last decade and how it's affecting severely the fabric of Portuguese society. This isn't a number on a paper, this are our daily lives.
I fail to see a single Swiss complaining he had to leave his own country because Portuguese people are taking over. I have A LOT of friends and family who had to leave. Switzerland, Luxembourg, you name it. UK too. There's not a single place where they are pushing the locals out.
On second thought, there were a few places we were pushing the locals out and taking over, in our long history. And we admit it was wrong. And we don't rationalize it like you do. We call it what it was: COLONIALISM.
The thing is there were enough houses not 10 years ago. The houses that are being built are not for Portuguese people they are being marketed to foreign investors and/or nomads. Even though 2 or 3 million Portuguese had to leave to make ends meet and same number of foreigners took their place, we keep seeing houses being built all over completely out of Portuguese people means and the ones that already existed are skyrocketing in price.
This isn't something I read on the news or on reddit. This is what I see everyday. I've had multiple family members being forced to leave to make a living. I myself am considering it. The village where my family came from, which has existed for over a thousand years is all but deserted. Everybody had to leave. Most of my old friends, specially the most promising, had to go. All of these people, they all had one thing in common. THEY DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE.
Get this in your head. Portugal is a sovereign country. It's our country, not the highest bidders. You can't just expect us to be pushed out of our own country and accept it. I have seen the hospitable Portuguese stereotype vanish in the last years. Trust me, everybody is sick of this and it is having the distasteful side effect of allowing far-right parties to grow. But the outrage is palpable and people will vote this way. NHR and golden visas and on their way out because of this. People are getting angrier every day.
I have no problems with sensible immigration. But there comes a time we have to put our foot down. Sorry, but Portugal belongs to the Portuguese. The same way the UK belongs to the British.
HappyraptorZ@reddit
Bravo. Well said tbh.
Cantbewokethankgod@reddit
I have had to learn my lesson. Even to consider moving to Portugal. Retiring there with my own funds. No social case. Just the absolute hate for the idea of it. The vitriol. The personal messages directing me to get fucked.
I wouldn't even consider visiting now. I know reddit is a cesspit. But I can only guess this a slight representation of what I would face. No thanks.
Odd_Adeptness_5480@reddit
Thank you so much for writing. In recent times my family is thinking of settling in Portugal
churrrrz@reddit
Cheaper than here in Mexico these days
And most of Europe
Agentvinod007@reddit
Interesting. One other thing you should
Hoelab@reddit
Welcome to Western Europe, Portugal/OP. You are gonna hate it.
CacaButt1992@reddit
Damn, it's always been my dream to visit western Europe since it seemed like paradise on Earth .but after reading this subreddit I realize that it's a horrid shit hole like every place else. Now I'm just hoping that an atomic bomb is dropped on it.
limpleaf@reddit
Too bad the salaries are still nowhere near western europe levels...
Dull_Post2802@reddit
Portugal isnt just Lisbon and Porto. There is othes cities with the same amount of services and transportation available. Viseu autarky have done a fabulous job in recent years for instance. And even lets say, Lisbon itself can be quite doable, if you look into places south of the River or in Alverca-Ribatejo. So for Exapts communities, who seek to live cheap, Portugal is quite an option still - unless you are tired of hearing about the country so much that it has created an irrational dislike in your head, then thats that (this sub doesnt strike me as that knowledge funded anyways)
The question I ask OP is why keep complaing on the country you left? You seem like the guy who would say "Portuguese only complain and do nothing" and thats exactly what you do, the difference is that you think you're hot shit for moving elsewhere. What you claim reaches an obvious hole, which is quite disappointing for someone who claims to have "travelled and experienced a lot"
Also the locals are angry online. Portuguese people dont have that much of a big mouth in real life, I know, I am one!
godlovesayterrier@reddit
Yeah. I'm American and lived in the boondocks in Portugal recently for three years. We loved it. It was (and still is) really cheap. I know as we left our apartment to friends and they pay the same rent. It was a farming area so you would go to the local market and buy produce from the farmers. Meat was more expensive, but it was amazing quality.
The food and culture are amazing, the people are wonderful and the architecture, art and landscapes are all stunning.
We left because we wanted to buy a house and the house prices are much lower in France, but I would never trash Portugal.
SEF publishes immigration statistics every year and Americans are less than 10k in the whole country. Where we we lived there were a handful in all nearby area as most want to be on the coast or in the big cities.
Dull_Post2802@reddit
And you just argued better than 95% of Portuguese online ! Gosh, I absolute despise them sometimes. How can someone be exhaustively dumb is beyond me but they usually take the cake. Dont mind their moaning and underdog mentality carried by xenophobic sentiment. After decades on waffling about their past, the Portuguese are finally having the heat of Globalization, in the better term of the word (because using the latest phones isnt much of a problem). It means having to do something. And they just cant keep up with it - the poor miserables!
CacaButt1992@reddit
And yet you still didn't answer or respond to the question.... Just bitching and complaining about the Portuguese bitching and complaining.
dutchyardeen@reddit
There was someone in the Portugal Expat group who did the same. That person moved to Ireland as well and then proceeded to be genuinely abusive to people in the Portugal group. The cognitive dissonance was interesting to watch.
Realistic-Past-6598@reddit
Portugal is not exactly what it has been said on websites, it was a few years ago but not so much anymore. Portugal still a beautiful country to visit but to move there permanently, do not rely on websites or advertising. Visit different regions for three months (if you can) and that will be your best investment to make your own decision.
House and rental crisis is a worldwide phenomenon. Extremly low interest rate in the last years + Covid increased the house demande so price went up.
Rental crisis is a worldwide phenomenon cause by short-term rental (Airbnb, Booking.com, etc) reducing the apartment inventory so price went up. A owner will make more on short-term rental than with a long-term tenant.
Several highly reputed constitutionalists have said the President's move to proceed with the 2024 budget vote, even with the socialist party Prime minister and others corruption, is constitutionally fraudulent with flagrant disregard for the constitution.
We have a government involved in a corruption scandal, the government will still carry on with full functionality for several more months as though nothing had happened!
At a time when Portugal should celebrate 50 years of democratic rule, the institutions have fallen into total discredit, not only in the eyes of the Portuguese but also in those of the international community!
kevley26@reddit
Do you even know how many Americans have actually moved to Portugal? Blaming a housing crisis on a relatively small group of migrants is pretty dumb lmao
nomadjune92@reddit
I lived in Spain earlier this year and it’s the one thing that I encountered on a weekly basis—anti-American sentiment. It got old very quickly, especially when you’re just trying to enjoy a new culture and a new country.
ZaGaGa@reddit
Do you? Don't look at old data. Americans have been arriving in great numbers in the last year
tripletruble@reddit
More Americans could have arrived last year than in the previous 5 years combined and it still would not be a plausible explanation for rising home prices. Have you considered increasing housing construction?
ZaGaGa@reddit
Americans are not the only factor, the problem is complex. But American interest last year is one of the major forces why Portugal prices are still under pressure against economical precisions and average europeian numbers.
House construction double it's numbers already. A new 2br ap is so expensive that more than half of the national couples cannot even dream of owning a new house, and that number rises to 92% in the capital.
tripletruble@reddit
Americans are a drop in the bucket compared to PT's youth moving to the cities and painfully weak housing construction. Even doubling PT's housing construction from that of 2020 (i did not find more recent data) would still put it below the OECD average (see page 5)
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/HM1-1-Housing-stock-and-construction.pdf
ZaGaGa@reddit
Portugal is one of the country's with the biggest number of houses for its population... its a complex problem and foreigners doesn't help. Some units from my neighborhood bought recently from foreigners (the one next to me was an American buyer) are empty most of the year...and PT 's Youth are currently leaving the cities!! Lol the prices are booming all over the country...
Portuguese newspapers are filled with articles reporting lack of HR in the police, military, health care, justice and so on... young people are just leaving....
godlovesayterrier@reddit
Country numbers here. List starts on page 57.
Americans are less than 10k.
The Portuguese have moved everywhere for a better quality of life (including the OP), but now it's bad if people move to Portugal for the same reason?
RedditorsGetChills@reddit
Screams they've been swallowing some anti immigrant / American talking points somewhere.
I'm American and not a fan of it here, but logic and understanding the economic trends during times like these make it easy to know why prices are higher, globally.
Babatonin@reddit
Am also Portuguese, born and raised in Lisbon but also had to move abroad to have any chance of a job or basic life comforts. And this post is very spot on, it's insane how expensive rent has become to not mention the cost of food. I'm not happy where I currently live but can't even consider moving back due to the cost of living and lack of jobs
robredditz@reddit
I have a similar situation, except that my parents moved from Portugal to South Africa. Now I live in another European country.
I miss Portugal so much though.
Babatonin@reddit
I'm sorry to hear you're in a similar spot, have you been coping well? I wouldn't wish living a foreign country you dislike to anyone.
Life is also becoming less affordable here but at least they have jobs, which there are none in Portugal. Whereabouts did you live? Last time I checked it's impossible to find a decent job in Lisbon don't know how it would be in Porto or Coimbra for example
robredditz@reddit
I've been fine thanks for asking! But I feel like a part of me is always missing. But is there any hope in Portugal near future? Like are the jobs getting better, getting worse or staying the same?
Babatonin@reddit
I completely get that feeling, it really affected my sense of identity as well.
Job wise it is improving, it seems there are more jobs than when I moved ten years ago. They brought a big "digital nomad" incentive a couple of years back which attracted a few businesses and many expats.
The main issue at the moment is that most jobs aren't paid proportionally to the cost of living, so it's very much a living paycheck to paycheck situation and hoping to not have extra expenses.
I really do hope it improves, I think Portugal has so much to offer, there's no quality of life like it (AND THE FOOD!!!) and it honestly breaks my heart that myself and friends had to move away just to have a somewhat comfortable life.
AveiroSavvyCat@reddit
I think the solution to this would be to turn expats and immigrants to underdeveloped areas in hopes that they will see some of the investment the big metropolises have.
LegitimateVirus3@reddit
Americans are actually a minority within the foreigners that are moving over there and spiking up the prices. Portuguese media also spews propaganda that follows someone's agenda of division, like in every other country.
CityRobinson@reddit
Probably true since most Americans don’t even have a passport and have never been outside the U.S.
dutchyardeen@reddit
56% of Americans have a passport.
ColonelClucky@reddit
…and they are all in Portugal scouting AirBnB potential.
Nah, they got that passport because the cruise ship stops in Jamaica for a day
dutchyardeen@reddit
11.7 million Americans flew to Europe by July of 2023. It's actually the most popular destination of 2023 for Americans this year. Mexico and the Caribbean actually lag behind this year.
ColonelClucky@reddit
Are you retarded? Lmao Portugal didn’t even make the top 10 on any list I pulled up. What part of you is incapable of a quick google search?
dutchyardeen@reddit
Portugal is in Europe. You should really buy a map.
ColonelClucky@reddit
So Portugal, came in as the number 1 destination? Over Mexico, Canada, France, UK, Italy, Germany, Spain, The Bahamas, Netherlands, and Switzerland in that order? Stop trying to make your summer vacation spot special on Reddit.
dutchyardeen@reddit
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
ColonelClucky@reddit
Lol Portugal is not even close. Everyone on Reddit is intelligent.
dutchyardeen@reddit
Why would I supply evidence that Portugal beats "other European countries" when I never said that in my original comment. You're (weirdly) asking me to supply evidence based on your bad reading comprehension. Had I mentioned Portugal at all, you'd be looking less foolish but anyone can easily see that my comment is unedited and I never mentioned Portugal.
As for my source, it's Forbes Magazine (so not a yahoo blogger) and their source is the US International Trade Administration (again, not a yahoo blogger). Europe has been the number one travel destination for Americans through July of 2023. Not "Jamaica on a cruise ship." Travel to the region accounts for 29.1% of overseas travel for Americans, which puts it in first place for travel outside the US.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/willskipworth/2023/08/16/us-travel-abroad-has-finally-reached-pre-pandemic-levels-heres-where-americans-are-going/
ColonelClucky@reddit
Read your comment Toad, omg you are telling people they have poor reading comprehension when your on a page about Portugal. News flash, get a map because Europe is not a country, it’s a continent. Or wait…could you be actually saying that the entire continent of Europe gets more visitors than Jamaica? (Which was clearly a joke that went past you, like everything else). Holy hell, I never would have guessed that!!!
dutchyardeen@reddit
You just keep digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole and it's fun to watch you get more unhinged and twist yourself into knots!!! 🤣🤣
Keep going!!!! 🤣🤣🤣💀💀💀💀
ColonelClucky@reddit
Lmao you should probably just leave the country. Looking at your comments you are borderline handicap but think your intelligent. So where is the source?
dutchyardeen@reddit
Awww ...poor baby. You're going to be okay someday. You'll get over this experience.
ColonelClucky@reddit
Poor troll woman, gotta pack up and leave the States for a place where she can finally be accepted
dutchyardeen@reddit
Yep. Came to Portugal to bang your mom. We're VERY good friends now. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
This is fun!!! Legit though, I have to go to bed. I love you!!!! Xoxoxo
ColonelClucky@reddit
Damn, your hubby must have full blown Down Syndrome to appreciate that 3rd grade comeback. You are the spitting image of why everyone hates Americans. The Portuguese must be glad to have a brand new American toad driving up real estate.
dutchyardeen@reddit
You're right. I apologize. I forget that people on Reddit can be very young and inexperienced. I legitimately do think you're awesome. I mean that.
You're going to grow out of the stage (hopefully) where you think it's cool to call people names. It was fun though to give you a little bit of your own medicine back.
For Down Syndrome, my best friend has a son Down Syndrome and I actually don't consider it an insult nor would my husband. That kid is legit the most amazing human!!! To use it as a slur is odd to me because if you knew anyone with it, you'd be using it as a compliment instead.
Anyway. Have a great night!!!
ColonelClucky@reddit
Sorry, didn’t mean to offend your husband, I mean friend’s child.
ColonelClucky@reddit
News flash, even if you just said Europe, it still didn’t even crack top 5
CityRobinson@reddit
Must be those Cancun trips.
JeanLBA@reddit
I’ve always looked at Portugal as offbrand Spain anyways
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
And how does your comment add the conversation?
JeanLBA@reddit
To go to Spain instead of Portugal
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
I see. Are you in Spain?
JeanLBA@reddit
Not based in Spain but that’s my vacation place I go there like 4 times a year
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
Lucky you! 😃
Why did you choose Spain over Portugal?
JeanLBA@reddit
Because Spain has everything Portugal offers but Portugal don’t have everything Spain offers I’ve been to Portugal too countless times, it’s alright but Spain 100x better
ReflexPoint@reddit
What does Spain have that Portugal doesn't? I'm just curious(I've been to both countries, though not extensively traveled through either).
ReachPlayful@reddit
I’ve always looked at Spain as a country that doesn’t speak good English and all the food is fried
loheiman@reddit
I love Portugal but Spain definitely has better food!
ElSuprimoGrande767@reddit
Well said OP !
Even in American standards, Portugal is no longer cheap
Many places in the US are cheaper. Both properties and goods.
ReflexPoint@reddit
Those places in the US that are cheaper would be crapholes like Mississippi.
disc_jockey77@reddit
I feel like this was bound to happen, and will happen to all other locations worldwide that are considered digital nomad hotspots.
But do remember that the 2010-2022 global tech boom fuelled by money printing from US/UK/EU fuelled this whole easy and ridiculously high wages to tech workers, digital nomad lifestyle and so on. I feel like this market is now cooling down worldwide with the rise in interest rates in US/EU/UK and massive tech layoffs.
So it's cyclical and I expect many of these hotspots like Lisbon/Porto/Madrid to see an exodus of digital nomads in the next 1 year or so and real estate prices and rentals cooling down in the next 1-2 years. But then again, central banks will cut interest rates to record lows "to kickstart economic growth cycle" and start printing money like crazy and it will begin another round of boom!
ReflexPoint@reddit
A lot of companies are now starting to call workers back into the office. I think we've seen the peak of the work remote trend.
fly4seasons@reddit
Jeez. If ireland is more affordable, Portugal must be really fkd
JHustle99@reddit
This is seriously the dumbest post I’ve read in a while. So the OP moves to Ireland and is complaining that rich Americans (<1% of all foreigners) are destroying Portugal.
I bet the Irish feel the same way about people like you.
Icy-Appearance-2473@reddit
Mass immigration impacts rent and house prices? Incredible.
dutchyardeen@reddit
The biggest issue with OP's argument (and yours) is that Portugal's population hasn't increased much so immigration isn't the root cause of an increase in rent/property prices. From 2021 to 2022, Portugal's population actually decreased by .19% and that's with mass immigration into Portugal. (We won't have data for 2022 to 2023 until January of next year.)
The biggest reason for that is emigration out of Portugal. In most years, you have more people leaving Portugal than coming in.
Icy-Appearance-2473@reddit
Regardless, mass immigration does indeed impact house prices and rent. How could it not?
dutchyardeen@reddit
It can't impact housing prices because the population hasn't increased. It decreased. Therefore, there aren't more people needing homes.
That points to what is causing an increase in housing prices isn't immigration. It's short term vacation rentals and property speculation pulling homes off the long term market.
revelo@reddit
It could be that the rise in house prices is confined to big cities and there is mass vacancies in small towns due to internal migration (this is true in Spain). Also, there might be more single or childless households occupying same housing unit previously occupied by larger family with children (also true in Spain). Or many housing units might be unoccupied for years due to stupid government rules regarding inheritance proceedings after death (minor issue in Spain, but still adds to issue). Lots of ways to increase housing demand and decrease housing supply in Lisbon unconnected with net population growth for Portugal as a whole.
TensaiTiger@reddit
Find your country before it’s too late because USA is dunzo.
ravenshroud@reddit
Welcome to the wealth gap of America, brought to a global stage.
aemilvs@reddit
Maybe blame your government that makes the laws and not immigrants trying to move for a better life. It’s not fair that the gov has let rent grow so expensive so locally run bars/restaurants no longer make enough money to stay open. It’s not fair that the only places left are catered to tourists. Its not fair that the gov let companies buy up properties only to use for short term rentals, causing families to leave their homes. It’s not fair that the salaries are too low to actually live on. It’s not fair that Portuguese people have to leave their country, their friends, their families to find work in other EU countries for a chance at a livable wage. And it’s not fair to blame the immigrants for what the gov has done to its own people. Immigrants can’t vote. They can’t do anything that can change the laws for the better. But citizens can. Maybe stop blaming people who’ve come to the country you abandoned and do your part in helping change things for the better.
GiannAkane303@reddit
I live in Portugal since before CoVid and its true, Portugal is no longer the country people see in vlogs and other media, even my Portuguese friends are different, they are not happy with the country, the government, with tourist all around.
Prices increased a lot, some stuff are more expensive here than anywhere else.
I don't see real hate toward foreigners (other than online) but the relationship is now cold and they don't hide anymore that foreigners are no longer welcome.
ornatos@reddit
Blaming Americans for the housing crisis in Portugal is just dumb and lazy. Americans expats are a small community when compared to the French and the Brits, and even when compared to wealthy segments of the Brazillian, Angolan and Chinese communities in Portugal. Americans are mostly focused on already affluent neighborhoods in Lisbon, Cascais and Porto, so they're definitely not to blame for any shortage of housing for the Portuguese middle class. The middle class could never afford Chiado, Estoril or Foz anyway. The housing crisis has multiple causes, including Portuguese people turning houses into Airbnbs, Portuguese developers overly focused on luxury real estate, Portuguese banks, and Portuguese bureaucracy in general. So let's tone down that xenophobia.
PaleontologistSad870@reddit
folks be like, not only do we migrate to a foreign hotspot, we also take our politics with us!
EggFull4016@reddit
Same in Wales, other come in and drive prices of rent and restaurants up
defylife@reddit
Those 7,000 US expats f-ing Portugal's economy.
Or did you mean 150,000 Brazilians?
Maybe the 800 odd Canadians.
Housing crisis, health care, food prices and general inflation are ravaging a lot of countries. It's not like it's different in Germany, Spain, UK etc..
rr621801@reddit
Can confirm for England, pakchoi went from 1 to £1.54. Fml
_Administrator_@reddit
It’s still cheap. You’re just lying because think you can get pre-inflation prices back...
SleepWithCats@reddit
I ended up in this situation in Colorado, unless I want to trove 3 hours each way for my job or live with 6 roommates I cannot afford to live in my home state where my family has been for over 100 years
ulayanibecha@reddit
Portugal is still very cheap though for Americans and Western Europeans. I’m paying £2550 for a dingy little one bedroom flat in London, that’s almost €3000 per month just for rent.
In Lisbon a similar flat in a similar location would be below €1k so I’d automatically save €2k a month just by living there. Additionally, everything else is much cheaper too….
Whereas my €100k salary in london really doesn’t go that far, in Lisbon I’d have a great quality of life.
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
Yea but if people continue to move here the prices of everything will keep increasing and increasing every year to the point people will think it’s not worth it anymore, similar to what happened to Costa Rica. I posted a link on the comments showing that some Americans are already leaving because they don’t think it’s cheap anymore.
ulayanibecha@reddit
Yea I’m sure some are leaving but as a whole it’s still incredibly cheap for what you get in return. I think you don’t realise how expensive places like London, NYC, California, Scandinavia, NL are
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
I go to London every year and have friends there, and know the cost of living is super high there of course, but just be aware that the advantageous of Portugal is cheap is disappearing and in some years will be no such big difference. It was the same as Dublin, super cheap in the early 2000s, but now is so expensive, almost on the same level as London.
ulayanibecha@reddit
Yea things always change, then people will move somewhere else, maybe eastern Europe or Turkey or South Africa etc.
My point was just that it’s still really cheap compared to big cities in NA/Northern Europe even though it’s gotten more expensive for Portuguese standards. That explains why people still move there.
It’s the same with Barcelona, it’s seen as expensive for Spaniards but I have several friends who have bought a house and moved there because it’s so cheap & has a good standard of living compared to their home countries.
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
The point the OP is trying to make (though, unfortunately, now an exercise in futility, I'm afraid) is that things are changing way too quickly in their country due to foreigners from wealthy nations who are only thinking about themselves and not considering the impact of their massive immigration on Portugal.
Yes, things always change, you say. However, you can't compare the steady but slow trickle of Americans to Costa Rica (which has been happening since the '80s) to the ridiculous influx of foreigners that Portugal has been experiencing in the past few years.
The Portuguese government is to blame for their terrible policy myopia. Foreigners from countries that have become too expensive to live in (and/or politically unattractive) will continue to seek opportunities abroad as long as governments keep welcoming them.
I am currently living in a country that has seen significant American immigration. The situation is very similar to what's happening in Portugal. Rents skyrocketed in early 2022, and food is extremely expensive, even for American/Canadian/European expats. We are spending at the market nearly the same on food as we did before coming here. Of course, we eat a variety of high-quality foods that most of the local population can't afford. They rely on cheap carbs, unhealthy fats, and a limited selection of vegetables. The majority of people here are overweight.
Do I feel bad about being part of the problem? That this city is overly expensive for its native citizens? No, I don't. I'm not taking away any local jobs. Only the affluent can afford to rent a place where I live. I contribute significantly to the local economy, and I'm not responsible for the disastrous government policies that have so adversely affected the livelihoods of the people.
I understand why the OP feels the way they do, though. Portugal, as a Western European country, should not be permitting, let alone encouraging massive expat migration. In fact, they should have halted or at the very least limited all expat migration a year ago, if not earlier.
godlovesayterrier@reddit
I lived in Portugal until last year. It's not the Americans. OP doesn't even live in Portugal.
Here is the immigration data from the SEF website. Americans aren't coming in huge numbers and the house prices went up years ago.
The Portuguese government seemed pretty awesome when we were there, much better than many other places in Europe. I wonder how much this is right-wing propaganda as they can't find anything else to bash Costa about.
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
I'm not the one saying that it's the Americans, btw.
I don't know anything about Portugal's politics, right-wing, etc. What I do know is this:
All the comments saying things like OP, Portugal is still much cheaper than many places in the US are written by absolute idiots who can't comprehend that the Portuguese people earn Portuguesa salaries which are a fraction of what people earn anywhere in the States.
We, privileged expats from First World countries, transplant ourselves to less expensive countries because we can but that's not a right we have, it's a bloody privilege.
It really bugs me that people can be so fucking stupid and not realize what this "business class" migration is doing to the people of countries like Portugal.
So, what am I? A bloody hypocrite? None of what I'm saying applies to me? It damn sure does. But, at least, I am not the asshole renting the two bedroom apartment for $800/month that a local family can't rent anymore.
When I read comments written by locals from expat infested countries saying things like "This fucking Yanks come to our countries to live like kings on USD 3K/month because with that money they can't do shit in their own country," I really feel for that person. We, you, me, all of us, are hurting people all over the world just because of our privilege.
This does not prevent me from sleeping at night or from enjoying my life but I can't pretend that it's okay because it's not.
ulayanibecha@reddit
It’s literally a right we have as EU citizens, you can move and live anywhere within the EU, by virtue of being a citizen.
Americans aren’t really the issue in Portugal, the issue are mostly other wealthier EU nations and its been an issue for decades.
Blame lies with the Portuguese government as they saw wealthy foreigners as an easy source of economic growth. They could have limited AirBNB rentals for example (as Amsterdam has done), they could’ve put in place laws around buying house to let etc but they didn’t. The government saw it as an easy way to boost growth.
It’s easy to blame foreigners moving to Portugal but the problem isn’t really the fact they’re moving to the country (especially with declining birth rates), the problem is how the country chose to manage it.
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
I am aware of the right you, as Europeans, have to freely move around and live within the Union.
I've been saying that all along.
The whole thing is such a massive catch-22. I don't see how this enormous social mess can get fixed. Health care, real estate/rent regulation, gentrification, underemployment, etc.
godlovesayterrier@reddit
Fair enough. I'm just suspect of people attacking Costa as the right-wing propaganda machine looks for anything to throw at the left just so they can get into power. And then they wont to shit about whatever the issue was. You see it in Italy where the right regularly wins elections on anti-immigration platforms and then lets in a ton of immigrants to lower labor costs.
I personally have lived only in small towns and villages in rural areas where half the houses on the street are empty because all the young people moved to the cities or abroad a long time ago.
We paid a local rent in Portugal which was tiny (300 euros/mo for 300 sq meters) and the place we rented had been empty for a decade before we rented it. I don't feel guilty. We didn't drive up prices. We also invested time and money into charities and cultural events, paid our taxes locally on American salaries, and didn't use the public services other than roads and the bureaucratic stuff. We hired local artisans to do work for us and generally funneled our little money into a community that didn't have a lot of external sources of income, especially during Covid.
Furthermore, where I've lived before and were I live now I see lots of expats organizing and patronizing cultural events in the countryside and bringing life back to areas that were abandoned because there was no work. I don't think it always has to be negative.
Todoslosplanetas@reddit
The situation wouldn't be nearly as dire if most expats did what you and the folks you mentioned have been doing. Have you watched Martijn Doolaard's videos? He's the same sort of expat: purchased property in rural Italy, and so far, he's spent the better part of two years transforming that property into a home, injecting funds into the local economy, and adhering to zoning regulations as he enhances the place. He isn't all that young, I wish I had his drive; I truly admire the guy.
Who uses Airbnb? Mainly foreigners (lots of expats) and some out-of-town people. And why have many investment properties morphed into Airbnbs? It's because governments don't quite know how to fix a problem they've created. There's not nearly enough decent housing available and rent regulation is a joke.
Wishing you all the best in rural France. I yearn to have undertaken two decades ago what you folks are pursuing, but I was far too entrenched in the rat race to even contemplate such a notion.
Take good care.
StrikingVariation199@reddit
This is happening everywhere worldwide, not just in Portugal - you’re just feeling the issues of people moving freely through the EU and being able to settle in “cheaper” areas with their savings from earning in other areas. Also happening in the US, eg: 10 years ago there were 47 other offers on the home I purchased and now it’s worth almost 3x what I paid for it.
ReachPlayful@reddit
Show me a nice apartment for under 1k that is not in a shitty location. There are not gonna be a lot and you’ll be competing with hundreds of people for it
ulayanibecha@reddit
There are plenty. You can easily travel 30 mins by train to the suburbs and find stuff below €1k. Again, I’m comparing it to London which is massive in comparison, for us it’s normal to travel an hour each way to the office a few times a week - someone moving from London to Lisbon will be used to those type of commutes & as a consequence can find sth really cheap relatively speaking within 30-60 minutes from central Lisbon.
In London you’d spend an hour on the tube/train and still pay 3-4x what you’d pay in Lisbon’s
ReachPlayful@reddit
Yes my friend, London is massive but as a foreigner I believe most of them don’t wanna move far away from the center. Public transportation is a million times better in London than Lisbon so you’d be dropping drastically your quality of life relying on train/bus here if you’re moving to the suburbs and some of those suburbs with cheaper accommodation are not very “nice”. I’m telling this as someone coming from abroad you’d want to live close in the center to enjoy the perks of it even if it’s not that expensive
vergastadanasal@reddit
Show me how many 1 bedroom flats for 1k in Lisbon. And by Lisbon, I mean the city, not the district.
rnny_@reddit
Are you renting something in Portugal for that price and got it recently? Because that's a good find for Lisbon.
Portugal is not that much cheaper than other southern european countries. Sure, you get more for your money but the cheaper alternatives are much harder to find.
We moved from the Netherlands to Portugal and while we have a bigger house, rent is the same. Groceries are not that much cheaper than in the Netherlands. Car market is ridiculously expensive. However, things like going out for dinner or to a bar are much cheaper. But general cost of living has risen here extremely.
Most Portuguese friends I have here are only able to get by with the low salaries because they bought their houses 5-10 years ago when the real estate market was much lower than it is now. Still, I am sometimes wondering how people with Portuguese salaries get by.
feto_ingeniero@reddit
I completely empathize with you, the same thing is happening to Mexico :( It makes me very sad because I visited Lisbon and Porto several times a few years ago and I thought it was the most beautiful country in Europe.
twinkleprincess888@reddit
Fellow portuguese / expats, is the country good for single moms?
8ersgonna8@reddit
I got the same impression after 1 week in Lisbon, coat of food and rent is catching up to Nordic capital prices. I wonder if our retirees will stay in Portugal now that the tax evasion laws is gone.
FoxIslander@reddit
I moved to Mexico 6 yrs ago...prices have really gone up here since covid. That said...the COL here is still half what it is in Seattle.
The_Baron_888@reddit
Question to the OP -
You mention “it has become impossible for local Portuguese to work and have a good life on the low salaries and high taxes”
But what about FIRE folks who have already earned their money elsewhere, moving to Portugal to live but not work. Any concern for them?
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
It depends on the location of the country you will live.
To live in Lisbon with the current rents you need at least 2500 euros / dollars per month to live comfortably or without stressing about money. This if you are going alone or with your wife. With kids you need to increase much more.
Outside of Lisbon or Porto you can downgrade that to 2000 € per month or 1500.
ashkaylene@reddit
Texan here. Sounds like a bargain to me.
antisocial_bunni@reddit
If you choose Ireland over Portugal you know it’s tough, so many Irish leaving Ireland cause it’s so hard to live theew
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
It’s not because I’m working on the field that have the higher salaries (IT) here.
Living in Ireland I can save 2k euros every month or more if I don’t travel often, in Portugal I could barely save 150 euros per month.
KingOfCotadiellu@reddit
LOL, and then you move to Ireland?
For what I've heard (from people that moved there) over there you also spend half your wage on rent alone. Anyway, similar problems all over (western) Europe, and even countries in the east are quickly heading the same way.
I'm not going to mention where I am, as for now life (and housing) is still affordable here. Unfortunately more and more media are starting to write about this place as well.
EUrope is just screwed, it's more and more split between the haves and the havenots.
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
Yeah but in Ireland the wages are way higher and they increase every year. In Portugal they are very very low and companies don’t increase salaries because they will pay too many taxes. Portugal has a tax system that does not allow you to have high salaries. If you have a salary higher than the minimum wage you will be severely taxed, both employer and the company.
And it’s not that I moved recently , I’ve been living here for 5 years now. If I don’t travel often I can save 2k every month after paying my bills, in Portugal I barely saved 150 euros per month.
StepAffecti687@reddit
It is interesting the perception the it is the "Americans" that did this ... but per SEF here are the top 10 immigrant countries... US doesn't even make the list SEF Source
Brazil (233,138)
United Kingdom (36,639)
Cape Verde (35,744)
India (34,232
Italy (33,707)
Angola (30,417)
France (27,614)
Ukraine (26,898)
Romania (23,967)
Nepal (23,441)
octaveq@reddit
How high is COL outside top 3 biggest portuguese cities?
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
It’s way better but have almost zero public transportation, because majority of job opportunities are in the 3 big cities, so you need to have a car to travel between house , job, shops and hospital, similar to the US.
octaveq@reddit
What im looking is small flat or house in quite neighborhood. Railroad access to other cities would be great too.
dutchyardeen@reddit
There are plenty of places like that with train access. Central Portugal is a good choice. A lot of the cities/towns are on train lines that connect to the bigger cities.
octaveq@reddit
thanks. Planning to go and explore options in near future.
weetabizz@reddit
This is a sad externality of global geo-arbitrage. The trend is really becoming untenable for locals in places that have become attractive to weekend trippers or 'digital nomads'.
Instead of being profitable to an economy as a whole as was naively advertised, these only benefit the ones who already own property and businesses.
Emily_Postal@reddit
I thought there were more Brits there than Americans at least in the Algarve.
StillComfortable2@reddit
Ireland is probably a lot worse or at least just as bad for housing crises.
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
Yes but the salaries are way higher here, it makes me save much more money and be able to travel. I’m been living here for 5 years now and traveled for 30 countries and already have money to buy a house in Portugal.
I have friends that stayed in Portugal, they are still living with their parents trying to save money to buy a house and cannot travel much otherwise they will never be able to buy a house.
And if I want I can work full remote to Portugal from Ireland, with Ireland salaries. But I’m not going to buy a house in Lisbon or Porto making the life of people that live there even more difficult.
Eltex@reddit
I heard those in Ireland wanted you to leave, as you are there driving up their prices. Care to comment?
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
As a EU citizen I’m paying taxes here and fulfilling the lack of qualified professionals they have.
In Portugal Americans / foreigns / digital nomades have a special taxation where they pay less taxes compared to the locals and are the only ones capable of living on the best apartments in Lisbon. Because they can pay this prices landlords tend to continue increasing the price of houses / rent there because foreigns will pay it.
dutchyardeen@reddit
Not everyone has special taxation (digital nomads only qualify if they're in a high value profession) and most immigrants can't pay the massive rents landlords are wanting either.
heyumami@reddit
Why do you keep saying Americans though? When I looked in April, Americans were 12th on the list of immigrants to Portugal, with less than 10,000 living there in 2022.
Eltex@reddit
Welcome to the future. We all have the same issue now. Nasty foreigners screwing things up. At least that is the narrative we are all being fed.
Yohasakura01@reddit
It’s true in Ireland expats/immigrants have driven the prices so high that you cannot imagine ppl only see what they want to see…
Eltex@reddit
But OP paid taxes, he is innocent, he says.
ZaGaGa@reddit
... and make life for those outside of metropolitan areas more difficult.... :P
damagedgoodz_@reddit
Problem is not just Americans. It’s a mix of sluggish economy / local salaries stagnating, airbnb, loads of wealthier foreign remote workers moving there from everywhere. Why didn’t Portugal limit airbnb and foreigners to access the property market like places such as Switzerland is a question you should ask to your politicians
Masty1992@reddit
There is no worthwhile data in Portugal or Spain that suggest foreigners are causing rising prices. I’ve seen it said so many times but the truth is that it’s bullshit, there is not a meaningful enough number of rich foreigners to have the type of impact the locals are imagining. Im a foreigner in Spain and we’re and easy target but it’s not the reality, we’re not causing the price increases, they match the increases in the rest of the world but are made slightly worse by poor government policy locally, they are not caused by rich foreigners
ZaGaGa@reddit
So who is buying the houses in Lisbon? Portuguese with secret salaries? Because nowadays prices are completely out of reach of more than 92% of the population. And those secret Portuguese I now find in my neighborhood and supermarkets have a really clear American accent and are able to really disguise themselves since real estate agents, cleaning services, moving services, they all believe most of theirs new clients are Americans....
godlovesayterrier@reddit
Here are the SEF numbers. Americans are less than 10k in the whole country. Maybe you're just hearing tourists?
ZaGaGa@reddit
Americans interest in Portugal gained traction in the end of 2022. You will have to wait for 2023 numbers. Till then you'll have to rely on indirect reports, and you can easily Google real estate reports about foreign buyers for this year.
godlovesayterrier@reddit
Rich Portuguese are buying houses too. Income inequality is up everywhere, and where we lived it was the Portuguese buying houses or turning their parents/grandparents houses into AirBnBs that was the big problem.
Not the one American in the town.
ZaGaGa@reddit
True but rich Portuguese are a drop in the pool. They are not that many or that rich... There's more people rich and with more money in other Europeans countries and they might have a housing problem but incomparable with Portuguese crisis of the last few years.
And true turning houses into arbnb is another problem, and it's not only the grandparents decrepit house..also foreigners who bought houses with no interest in living in Portugal full time. Just search in Airbnb site the number of proprieties owned by "Thomas" "Peter" "Nancy" etc...
ldarcy@reddit
You keep suggesting googling for reports. Obviously you know the location of those reports since you are referring to it. Can you help us and share link to said reports here?
ZaGaGa@reddit
I've grown tired of sharing links only for people fail to understand the sourced material and keep defending the same ideas. There's toons of information available but can you trust a single real estate report? I've read, talked, checked some DB and have my conclusions, do you own research if this subject is important to you, what you choose to believe I couldn't care less.
ldarcy@reddit
So you are saying it you have shared it already? Can you share it again?
ReachPlayful@reddit
Completely oblivious in the case of Portugal then. Rising number of immigration are causing the increase of housing prices in Portugal regardless of being rich or poor. OP is an idiot for blaming the Americans because it’s newest leftist propaganda to hide the actual truth of the consecutive left governments we’ve been having. They’re the ones to blame for fucking the housing market to the point that they open the borders to everyone and there hasn’t been any new significant construction in the past 20 years
villager_de@reddit
you should look into how AirBnB alone is known to drive property prices through the roof....
Masty1992@reddit
That’s a completely different thing though. Vacationers taking over residential properties at a premium price absolutely drives a housing crisis. A population of 1% high earning foreign born people is not drastically effecting the cost of general housing.
skin_Animal@reddit
Less than 1% of the housing is owned by Americans and is therefore obviously not inflated because of a few retirees in a few major cities, can get back to actual economics?
szayl@reddit
This is r/expats, American bashing is on the menu every day
ang444@reddit
Its certainly the country they love to hate
steponfkre@reddit
They come for vacation. The AirBnB business is the issue. Not the ownership. Large corporations are buying tons of homes to rent for crazy prices.
ZaGaGa@reddit
1% is enough to unbalanced a system, what's 1% inflation in top of normal inflation? Enough to make central banks to action.
Americans are not to blame for the last 4 years great inflation in Portuguese real estate,. but they are one of the major forces punching the prices up in the LAST YEAR despite overall inflation, increase in Euribor taxes and others factors that made real estate stagnant or even loose value in several European markets.
szayl@reddit
Source(s)?
ZaGaGa@reddit
Google immigration data and real estate reports.
szayl@reddit
So no sources then. Got it!
JHustle99@reddit
Thank you. The OP strikes me as a bit xenophobic instead of welcoming.
pandaappleblossom@reddit
which is so hypocritical since they moved to Dublin
atzucach@reddit
He's welcoming people to fuck right off
spicy_pierogi@reddit
In another country OP not even from, as ironic as this seems.
phillyfandc@reddit
This is an absolutely ridiculous comment. Xenophobic because of pricing going up?
ReachPlayful@reddit
OP is just going with the flow of the leftist propaganda. Now they’ve targeted Americans (that do contribute to the situation) but are nowhere near to be the responsibles of this. The real responsibles are the Portuguese government that are basically letting an out of control flow of immigration for a small country that isn’t remotely prepared for it and a housing market that stagnated the past 20 years
Billie-Turf@reddit
Same goes for The Netherlands, is no housing here. Netherlands is litterly full. So there is no point thinking of moving to the Netherlands. NL is very expensive.
rocketboy44@reddit
if you see tons of tiktoks about a place it’s best to avoid it
steponfkre@reddit
Rent In Portugal is similar to Netherlands and Norway. Before moving here from Norway, i figured i would save on the rent - i pay the same. A one bedroom is 1.2k minimum. Appartments being sold are horrible quality. My other expenses are lower, but It’s def not a cheap location anymore. It’s a place for rich foreigns to get tax advantages or pensioners to waste away.
ghostinthekernel@reddit
It's a great shift, northern countries that used to give tax breaks that attracted workers (like Ireland and the Netherlands) will see a lot of people that moved in some years ago move to the new countries that decided to use these tax breaks (Portugal, Spain, Italy) since they offer same or even better tax advantages and way better weather, they are also starting to have lower unemployment numbers. I am in the process myself to leave one of the northern countries to move to either Spain or Italy after having moved here merely for economic reasons and now wanting to enjoy some good nice weather after 10 years of rain and clouds.
kytheon@reddit
Probably has a lot to do with WebSummit. Lots of rich people come over and see how nice Lisbon can be, only to drive up the prices. Been going on for a decade at least.
not_happiness@reddit
Do you like it in Ireland?
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
Yes , people are very social here and I have much more financial freedom than in Portugal despite Dublin being expensive as hell.
UGLVARPG@reddit
Too many people. We are at the beginning of a population bottleneck as people are already dying sooner.
rmadsen93@reddit
Portugal is losing population, even with immigration. Too many people is the least of its problems.
ReachPlayful@reddit
It’s actually not. Latest report showed it gained around 5% the last 10 or 20 years
rmadsen93@reddit
Yes but it has peaked and is starting to decline. Current forecast is for the population to be around 9 million by 2050.
ReachPlayful@reddit
Actually portugal population has peaked many years ago. If it wasn’t for current immigration it’s Population would have been declining years ago
UGLVARPG@reddit
Do you believe in Santa? Do you believe gov numbers?
rmadsen93@reddit
No I believe in random conspiracy theories.
Round-Holiday1406@reddit
Aging population, huge sovereign debt, energy crisis, not so competitive economy …sure, but let’s blame the Americans anyway.
mattoratto@reddit
IMF ((US led) did the same thing in greece, local pop there cant afford prices.
Positive_Engineer_68@reddit
Corruption, bureaucratic cronyism, the long tail of short term policies from years of repressive dictatorial rule and all the knock on effects
sambaserver@reddit
We were wondering this with my partner. It makes no sense thinking a bit from first principles. For example, the number of nurses and doctors per thousand inhabitants is very low.
Most of statistics point in this direction regarding Portugal, nothing against the country itself though, but against misinformation about it.
YabeYo@reddit
Also happening to Bali :((
GrizzleKing@reddit
Bro I was in Lisbon in June. Hella expensive! The people I told my trip about couldn't believe it. A can of coca cola, 2 euro. It's not outrageously expensive, but it's same priced as The Netherlands
Diamond_Specialist@reddit
OP is an idiot.
pandaappleblossom@reddit
big time. doesnt understand economics at all, and is a hypocrite. just jumped on a trend of hating Americans because internet says so.
Starfish_Symphony@reddit
Was thinking about Portugal three years ago so went and traveled a few weeks in 2021. The writing was already on the wall then. Sadly noped the fuck out of that idea.
Witty-Breadfruit-215@reddit
Get rich, peasant
ReflexPoint@reddit
The same happens to Americans and Canadians. A ton of Latin America's elite class own condos in Miami which puts housing pressure on locals. Russian millionaires buying apartments in NYC. Chinese rich buying up Vancouver and pricing out locals. It ain't just Portugal, it's everywhere, even Americans are priced out of their own cities by even richer people.
Minigoalqueen@reddit
Same thing happened in Idaho. Used to be very cheap. Retirees moved here in drives. Now a lot of locals can't afford to live here anymore.
tripletruble@reddit
What struck me when visiting was that despite rising home prices, I saw hardly ANY housing construction whatsoever. I doubt the 10k or whatever Americans have much to do with what is surely an internally brewed mess
mikehamp@reddit
You can get a 2 bedrooms 2 bathroom brand new Palace along the beaches of Mazatlan for the price of an old decrepit studio in Lisbon.
YakPersonal9246@reddit (OP)
Source of my arguments
1 - Americans are leaving Portugal due to high housing costs: https://www.idealista.pt/en/news/financial-advice-in-portugal/2023/06/30/5536-americans-are-leaving-portugal-due-to-high-housing-costs
2 - Americans Are Leaving Portugal as Golden Visa Honeymoon Ends: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-08/getting-a-visa-for-portugal-americans-who-made-pandemic-move-are-leaving?in_source=embedded-checkout-banner
Simco_@reddit
Your own link cites <10,000 Americans in Portugal yet you repeatedly emphasise how they're the problem.
Literally 1.4% of foreigners are American...by your own citation...and you can't stop being xenophobic.
All of this comes on top of just genuine ignorance of housing prices around the world skyrocketing for 5+ years.
heyumami@reddit
OP cites American outlets known for clickbait BS lol
Bad2bBiled@reddit
I want to assure OP that I stand with you.
But from over here.
I will never bring anything Californian or American anywhere near Portugal. Promise.
sniperj17@reddit
>Don't California my Portugal
Yumm101@reddit
All the Cali hate
figuring-out-road@reddit
Please have a look at the data from the easiest obtainable source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Portugal#Number_of_resident_foreigners
American is not the largest population of immigration in Portugal not even the top 3 or 10.
warabit@reddit
American immigrants make up less than 1% of immigrants. I don't think the bulk of blame can be placed on them.
legalizemouses@reddit
this post makes it sound like th perfect place to go if you want cheap, and before it gets not as cheap.
Aposta-fish@reddit
Seems like as soon as it makes it to YouTube it’s almost to late for that area to be a bargain any more. I think the next hot spot is Antarctica but don’t quote me.
Great_husky_63@reddit
Maybe the effects of decades of de-industrialization have began to compound. Portugal is, for western Europe standards, quite poor, with little capital, high costs, small industrial/service sector, etc. Basically they export wine and some food, and import everything else.
Some 1-2% foreigners might have altered the prices in tourist areas, but outside them everybody lives with their parents, salaries a joke, cost of living in reading, plus worldwide inflation, a diminishing manila labor pool, little population growth, median age into the high 40s, etc.
So with a small market where imports are the norm, you have high costs of logistics, low competition, few suppliers, little investment, etc.
Spain has a similar problem, to a lesser degree. Salaries are almost double than Portugal but still a joke for the cost of living. Subisdies from the European Union have also provided the apparence of infrastructural wealth too.
PM_ME_UR_STOCKING@reddit
Yeah, the problem is definitely the 1-2% of Americans that own houses in Portugal and nothing else.
While we are at it, we can also blame other minorities because why not
ZaGaGa@reddit
Do you have any idea of the impact 1% can have in a market?
RevolutionaryLack695@reddit
Canada would like a word
CrackaJakes@reddit
At least Canada is trying to do something to hold real estate prices, even if it’s not much. They just waited too long. The US is getting it now, albeit more focused on global corporations driving up costs rather than foreigners.
The real issue across the world seems to be real estate viewed as investment holdings rather than an actual human need.
1s20s@reddit
If lots of Americans are abandoning PT then I think it's the perfect time to go there.
GooseNippleLicker@reddit
The absolute irony of this after what cheap European labour has done to Irish workers.
esp211@reddit
Any place that is being portrayed as “cheap” for the masses is not cheap anymore because people will flock to those places and increase the price of everything.
ArbaAndDakarba@reddit
Sales define the housing price but make up less than 1% of the housing stock, so it's not inconceivable that a small influx of rich people could completely skew the housing prices. Gentrification is real and is happening globally now sadly.
villager_de@reddit
I am German and I went backpacking through Portugal the last 2 months. I was shocked at the prices. Groceries are the same prices, if not more expensive than back home. Prices in restaurants in the big cities are also comparable to Germany. Sure you can get a coffee for 1€ at a non touristy Cafe but that was the only time I thought "wow it is cheap here". And to think that we in Germany earn on average more than double than the Portuguese and are also complaining about cost of living when cost of living in Portugal seems not too far off from Germany with less than half the salary
ReachPlayful@reddit
Supermarket prices have always been like this mostly everywhere for ages. It’s called a free market. Only major differences in prices per countries are local laws/taxes and transportation costs. For example I in Portugal can import potatoes from Poland the same way a German one can as well leading to very similar prices in supermarkets
Sereri@reddit
I live in Portugal. Visited Berlin for 1 week and I sort of had same impression as you💀 The prices are just a bit more expensive In Germany but the wage there is way higher. Average wage in Berlin is 3 TIMES higher than Lisbon. This is crazy.
RexManning1@reddit
Multifaceted problem that isn’t solely due to foreign money influx, but that is part of the contribution. I’ve personally seen what happens with housing when the demand is higher than the supply and people who demand the housing arrive with more money now than the people who demanded housing previously. The more people tout a place as somewhere you should be, the more people will go. The internet has been pushing Portugal for the last 5 years and it’s obviously seen the influx of foreign residents due to that. OP isn’t entirely wrong, even if the tone is negative.
Quagmire6969696969@reddit
Something to consider, maybe some of them are Americans (or Canadians, Brits, etc) with Portuguese roots who want to go back to the motherland? I'm American, but my dad's family is Portuguese (Açores), and I know people who have done this, whether it's for retirement, family reasons, work, they all have a desire to stay in touch with the culture.
Obviously this isn't everyone, but I'd imagine it's a decent amount.
CommercialShip810@reddit
Ok, but it is cheap.
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Tourists and expats have become a blight.
JHustle99@reddit
Not sure who your target audience is for this post but Portugal is a lot cheaper than NYC or California. So most Americans who are moving are saving a ton of money.
I’m in NYC and planning to move too. I speak Portuguese.
JHustle99@reddit
I’m moving to Lisbon and my budget is $5k per month for an apartment. I’m an American who speaks Portuguese.
IrishRogue3@reddit
Hold on- you moved to Ireland - if your in Dublin , you just raised your COL from Portugal ? But yeah no doubt that the popularity of a country is gonna cause prices to soar.
AppropriateStick518@reddit
But Reddit and YouTube say it is!!!!