Should the national minimum wage be a thing?

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ResplendentBear@reddit

You tend to end up with a lot more working people on benefits, so things may or may not get cheaper, but the tax bill definitely goes up. I know introducing the minimum wage in the UK didn't cause unemployment. The fact it's increased faster than inflation since may change things.

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Certain_Actuator6870@reddit (OP)

just curious why would more people end up on benefits? My understanding is removing the NMW forces the free market to decide wages which would be slightly lower than a forced rate set by the gov each year, lower cost to employ labour = more employment

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ResplendentBear@reddit

The minimum wage hasn't tended to hurt employment so you can't argue removing it would improve employment so clearly. To my point though, the problem is the free market doesn't set a wage at a level people can necessarily live on. So the government ends up with a huge bill for in-work benefits. (In terms of free market theory, people would relocate if they can't supply their labour to where it's profitable, but in the real world people aren't so mobile. This is GCSE economics really).

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VOODOO285@reddit

The problem is that that way of thinking becomes a race to the bottom. Look at America and its tipping culture. Business doesn’t pay its employees anywhere near enough but charges a fortune then you’re still expected to tip so your server can live. You as the consumer are screwed out of your money twice. If capitalism were done responsibly it could be incredible but most businesses will pay their employees as little as they can get away with while paying one or two people exorbitant wages or worse still, shareholders.

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Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

100% I genuinely wonder if the system will collapse at this point. It seems to rely on paying people peanuts while *still* expecting them to spend loads of money on everything.

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pu55yobsessed@reddit

If you remove NMW and employers can get away with paying staff less then some would take advantage of that. As a result, if people can get more money from benefits than working then it’s obvious which one they’d go for.

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Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

Or more likely, people need more benefits to top up their shrunken wages. Either way the welfare bill goes up.

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YogiFair@reddit

Making 70 hour work weeks the norm. Wonderful.

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Guilty-Vermicelli320@reddit

It should be a thing but it shouldn't be close to a lower band NHS worker with more responsibility

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Garconavecunreve@reddit

We don’t need people to upskill - we need people to be paid acceptable and fair wages which allow them to maintain a respectable standard of living whilst carrying out essential work (care takers, maintenance, teaching) for society. There’s thousands of post and undergraduates that struggle to find a job they find suitable for themselves (they obviously want high paying positions as they’ve gone through „additional education“, need to pay of loans etc), whilst no one wants to work for the NHS or sort shelves at Tescos (both essential for a functioning society). Take away the minimum wage, what do you think will happen next? Sudden wage increases for those jobs? Doubt it

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LisaandNeil@reddit

Wages need to go up generally. For too long now we've seen companies making record profits whilst their employees are on in-work benefits. That's the state directly emptying taxes into private company shares. It's wrong. What needs to go down is the expectation that big business just hoovers up all the money in the economy then offshores the profits so it pays no tax. NMW is essential until then and it needs to be set at a level that requires no in work benefits. Free market capitalists will accept this as normal and natural if they believe in their own mantra.

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FidelityBob@reddit

Even with minimum wage the government (us) are supporting the low paid. Employers pay the minimum. It's not enough to live on. The employee claims benefits (UC). We support them. If a business can't afford to pay a living wage it is not viable and should close. No minimum wage just leads to exploitation.

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VOODOO285@reddit

I take your point but if all these businesses close and there’s even less work then those people will need even more benefits. It’s lose lose under that paradigm. I’m not asking in a confrontational way but game it out… under your shut businesses idea, what do you do with the unemployed AND keeping them fed and warm and entertained?

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Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

Yeah, but the main fact is a job is only useful to an employee if it pays enough to live on. I agree that it's bad that a lot of businesses evidently can't afford to pay people properly, but what's the fix? Some form of UBI, maybe?

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idontlikemondays321@reddit

It should definitely be a thing. A job is a job. It exists because there is a need and demand for it. Whilst minimum wage might often not require qualifications it usually requires a great deal of patience and people skills.

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Certain_Actuator6870@reddit (OP)

follow up question - should it be at where it is rn

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Derries_bluestack@reddit

OP - tell me why a worker in hospitality shouldn't get the same wage as someone sitting at a desk? Why shouldn't the person picking your food in a field get the same wage as a person shuffling paper in the tax office? Why would it be a good thing (for you or me) that desperate and vulnerable workers are allowed to be exploited by companies because there is no legal minimum wage?

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Top-Spinach-9832@reddit

Because typically when you say someone sitting at a desk. They typically mean a degree educated person in a high skilled role like an accountant who intends to stay at the company for 10 years and is very difficult to replace. Whilst almost anyone can work as a waiter without any trained skills or experience. One effect of the minimum wage is that chefs and waiting staff are now paid nearly the same. Despite a chef usually having years of professional experience and training.

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KeegsNW@reddit

There's a slight hint of meritocracy but the reality is what you can demand for your labour is how much you'll get paid. If you specialise there's less competition between workers and you can demand more. This is why unions exists; so workers can collaborate. If they collaborate to demand collectively a higher minimum wage then that's what they'll do. Saying one personal is educated and skilled and one person isn't literally doesn't matter if we don't accept it as criteria, and i've never heard a good argument that we should other than doesn't just boil down class antagonism.

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Top-Spinach-9832@reddit

Sorry. What you’ve said there is what honestly what I meant to get across. I sort of meant the words training/education/skill/value semi-interchangeability as proxies for value of labour in a market economy.

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VOODOO285@reddit

Are you advocating everyone gets paid the same or gave you just expressed your point badly?

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VOODOO285@reddit

The problem isn’t the minimum wage it’s how unbelievably poorly wages have not increased with inflation for people in higher tier jobs AND how utterly ridiculous the cost of living is. There should absolutely be a minimum wage for low skilled workers. But the minimum wage is now way too high. They NEED to be paid it so they can live but they only need it because they literally can’t without it and that’s the problem. Then the skilled/experienced workers need wages that also reflect the new cost of living. The natural consequence of this is inflation so everything goes up and up and up. It’s a never ending cycle and unfortunately I think the current minimum wage is too high because it pushes prices up for everyone including those on minimum. But reducing the wage is not the solution. I don’t know what the solution is. What I do know is that we are at breaking point. I earn about £60k and my buying power is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than it was when I earned £40k. It’s just pain all round.

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Ok-Restaurant1190@reddit

It’s not a race to the bottom. Professional wages should increase. If someone works full time, they should be fully able to pay bills for the basics of life, the incentive to upskill comes from wanting luxuries. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953625003946

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LiamJonsano@reddit

I think you can definitely make a case for it just squeezing those “professional” jobs salaries down, rather than trying to encourage those on lower salaries up But obviously at the same time you can’t have a country like ours with people earning not a lot - competition isn’t so great that I wouldn’t expect some companies to pay seriously awful wages and some people to still do it because they’re that desperate for something Also I’m sure the Govt have worked the finances out and lifting millions of people’s private salaries up probably produces more tax than hoping private companies do the same

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Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

Those professional jobs should raise their wages, then. That being said, a lot of MW retail and hospitality jobs are just as hard to do as more entry level white collar stuff.

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Top-Spinach-9832@reddit

It should be a thing, but it seems like the consensus among economists has gone from full blown support in the early 2000s to being very weary of how much it has risen recently. [Here is a great article by The Economist magazine a few months ago that will explain far better than I could](https://archive.is/dHNHB)

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MountainMuffin1980@reddit

Wait, are you suggesting we should pay people in certain sectors less than the current MW, so that they are incentivised to upskill and earn more?

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Reckless_Engineer@reddit

Of course it should be a thing. How can you expect people to work but not live? The fact that skilled jobs are paid close to the minimum wage isn't the fault of people earning the minimum wage, it's the fault of a capitalist society

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Should the national minimum wage be a thing?

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29 Comments

ResplendentBear@reddit

Certain_Actuator6870@reddit (OP)

ResplendentBear@reddit

VOODOO285@reddit

Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

pu55yobsessed@reddit

Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

YogiFair@reddit

Guilty-Vermicelli320@reddit

Garconavecunreve@reddit

LisaandNeil@reddit

FidelityBob@reddit

VOODOO285@reddit

Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

idontlikemondays321@reddit

Certain_Actuator6870@reddit (OP)

Derries_bluestack@reddit

Top-Spinach-9832@reddit

KeegsNW@reddit

Top-Spinach-9832@reddit

VOODOO285@reddit

VOODOO285@reddit

Ok-Restaurant1190@reddit

LiamJonsano@reddit

Silent_Frosting_442@reddit

Top-Spinach-9832@reddit

MountainMuffin1980@reddit

Reckless_Engineer@reddit

AutoModerator@reddit