Can we all just collectively agree that EVs are superior if you have a reliable charger and you don’t plan on driving more than 100 miles away from that charger. In any other scenario, in 2026, a hybrid or gas car is the better option
They road trip just fine too, even in the cold, unless you're a splash n dash on the road salesman type it's perfectly fine with range to spare on the ~300 range models IMO.
Everyone pretending they're constantly driving 500 miles without stopping has always baffled me. yeah, those people exist, but 99.9% of people don't/can't do that. The closest I got to that was making the 6.5hr drive to/from college without stopping back when I was younger but even the was only ~400 miles and I didn't do that every time.
If I can get 200 miles traveling with my wife and two kids without someone needing a break I'm happy. In the last 5 years the battery hasn't been a limiting factor even once. Cycling them through the bathroom also takes enough time that we're usually 80%+ by the time we're back at the car. If we stop for lunch I usually need to go out and unplug before we're done eating or risk idle charges.
I've done ski trips with multiple hour drives to Vermont and New Hampshire in sub zero temps and it's never been an issue.
I find the bigger issue, at least out west, is that lots of these chargers are not in places you'd particularly want to take a 30 minute break at.
I agree most people probably don't cannonball run their road trips, but if you want a break I'd rather stop in town at a nice restaurant or a scenic lookout or something. But you end up having to sit around for 30 minutes at a Pilot truck stop in bum fuck Idaho or Utah just wasting daylight off the highway.
That's now. I see decent food joints popping up around remote EV stations on the interstates. Tribal casinos are getting in on the act, too, which may be just a little too diverting.
True, eventually I expect the infra will catch up. My dream scenario is every parking spot has a charger (Similar to block heater plug-ins for the far north regions of NA) to give people the flexibility to stop and rest and make EVs more accessible to non homeowners parking in public or at work.
Unfortunately we do live in the now, and I understand why many do not want to deal with the growing pains.
I mean I know exactly zero people who would want to just sit around for 30 minutes to wait to recharge their car on a road trip. The entire point is to get to your destination or where you want to go as fast as possible.
You stop to eat, but I'll be real here, I have literally never seen an EV charger near a place you would want to eat at. They are in grocery store parking lots or strip malls with zero food options near by.
So you stop to eat and then you have to find someplace to charge for 30 minutes. Before you get back on the road. That's not something I would ever find acceptable.
I have generally found that Tesla’s chargers are near good places to stop. They’re often near pretty decent food options, Rivian is slightly worse. Grocery stores are somewhere I already stop frequently to go to the bathroom and get gas when driving a gas vehicle so that’s not too bad for me. I certainly don’t prefer it to places like Hood River where there are multiple nice places to eat right next to the charging area.
Do you guys not install them in fast food carparks? That's not uncommon here, and yeah McDonalds isn't the healthiest but on a roadtrip it's a common option
Here in Minnesota, I've only ever seen them in parking lots at strip malls or Grocery stores.
I've never seen one near anything resembling food. Most gas stations don't have chargers here either.
> Here in Minnesota, I've only ever seen them in parking lots at strip malls or Grocery stores.
???
They seem relatively common at restaurants in the Twin Cities.
Places like parks, community and government centers, libraries, etc have been getting them here as well.
Entirely possible this isn’t true of the rest of the state, I haven’t really paid attention.
6-7 years ago I would have agreed with you. But now? Google Maps shows 38 chargers within a 5 mile radius of my house. Shit, the dog park I go to has 2.
This stuff is so interesting. All the chargers I can think of are either in the city center (installed by the city in small quantities in parking garages) or at gas stations. I wouldn't say many gas stations have them, but it isn't unusual for a gas station to have 2-10 chargers. I don't think any of the grocery stores or large shopping centers have them.
Maybe not a full meal, but I stop every couple of hundred kms and I'll usually get a drink and/or a bite to eat. So in a 600km drive I'll stop for morning tea, lunch, maybe a drink and then dinner at the end.
Okay, but the point is that 30-45 minute stops aren't "free" because you have to eat anyway. And in my experience, most chargers are not conveniently at a place to eat.
> Okay, but the point is that 30-45 minute stops aren't "free" because you have to eat anyway.
If I stop for 15 minutes to walk/stretch my legs/go get an iced coffee, half of it is free though. It's still annoying to wait but it's half the time. That said...
> And in my experience, most chargers are not conveniently at a place to eat.
Yeah, the US experience with that is crazy. The locations that I'd reasonably use to go to fast charge on a trip to Sydney/Canberra or Melbourne are:
1. In a shopping mall but that mall has multiple places to eat and is less than 200m from a KFC.
2. On the main street of town, less than 200m from both the shops and the bakery (the town is too small to have fast food).
Both of these places are also sleepy small towns (we call Renmark a city but it's not by US standards) where walking around like that is safe. I completely get that if you routinely had to walk like half a kilometre to find food in a strange city, that would change your opinion on it.
Yeah, they keep putting them in large shopping centers or even huge gas stations near the highway. Which that’s not the worst type but they’re usually a huge gas stations near the highway that are just horrendous to stop at.
I mostly drive east cost or eastern-central.
Gas stations do tend to have more diverse amenities, at least for now, even here. My biggest slow down are the states that have forced chargers off the highway and onto surface streets. Charging goes much faster where they lobby groups haven't been able to keep them out of the actual rest stops but usually they're in convenient places still like malls or shopping centers.
I've charged in a few truck stops but they've had good amenities on the east coast.
>Everyone pretending they're constantly driving 500 miles without stopping has always baffled me
I'm doing a 552 mile trip in May, stopping to recharge would mean we have to get up much earlier to make the ferry time. My petrol car can do that whole journey without stopping. You don't have to do these trips constantly to see the benefit, even once or twice a year is enough.
550 miles is 8h of driving. That is crazy and unsafe. Nobody should be doing that. Instead of insisting on doing dangerous and childish things you could be responsible and make a break every 3 h of 15 minutes. To get caffeine, walk for 5 minutes, rest your eyes, pee, eat something, and then continue.
If you do that you realize an EV would not loose time at all
Eu truck drivers are not allowed to drive more than 4.5 hours at a time.
Electric semi trucks are already on the road in europe and have no time, weight, size, or cost disadvantage.
In fact, they are cheaper over their lifetime even tho they cost twice as much to buy .
> Eu truck drivers are not allowed to drive more than 4.5 hours at a time.
Yep, and I said I'm having a break at 4 hours for 2 hours.
>Electric semi trucks are already on the road in europe and have no time, weight, size, or cost disadvantage.
>In fact, they are cheaper over their lifetime even tho they cost twice as much to buy .
I never said anything about the feasibility of electric trucks - though they currently only make up about 2% of new truck sales, so it's not exactly like logistics operators are flocking to them yet.
>break at 4 hours for 2 hours.
Plenty of time to charge a semi truck full.
And given that electric semi trucks only really hit the market in 2025, its not surprise that they don't immediately replaced all diesels but they are rapidly growing, especially in german>
>Heavy-Duty (>16 tonnes): Germany registered 1,398 heavy battery-electric trucks in 2025, a 38% year-on-year increase, representing 28% of all such vehicles in the EU.
>Medium-Duty (3.5–16 tonnes): Germany registered 3,368 medium-duty battery-electric trucks, accounting for 43% of the EU total in this segment.
>Overall ZE-HDV Growth: In the first three quarters (Q1-Q3) of 2025, the market share for Zero-Emission Heavy-Duty Vehicles (ZE-HDVs) in Germany rose rapidly to 27.1%, up from 14.5% in the same period of 2024.
The long haul trucks have a battery capacity of 600-740kwh. And a fully loaded truck needs about 1kwh per km. (More if you drive up a mountain, less if you drive down a mountain). Given the speed limit is 80km/ to 90km/h, you can realistically only drive 300-350km per 4.5h section. Then you have to do a mandatory 45 minutes break which you do at a fast charger which can charge at 350-450kw, putting 260-330kwh aka 300km of range back in. Then you drive another 4.5h before you do another 45 minute break. After that you are allowed to drive another hour before you have to do a mandatory 11 hour break.
So if you start with 500-700km range, you lose 300km range in the first section, then charge up 300km in the first break, then lose 300km again, then charge 300km again, then lose 80km again before you go to bed.
Thats why electric semi trucks do not have a range or time disadvantage to diesel trucks. Every autobahn and highway in europe has fast chargers available for semi trucks. At some you still have to take of the trailer which wastes time, yes, but semi truck drive through chargers are becoming extremely popular and you find them at most truck stops in central Europe. There are some regions that are less developed like southern Italy or southern Spain but all of Central Europe has the infrastructure already. And its proven already.
Diesel used about 30-40L per 100km and at 1.70€ that's about 0.60 cent per km. If you charge at .30 cent per kwh, electric semi trucks cost 0.30 per km. Some chargers are more expensive but if you don't charge at above 50 cent per kwh, electric semi trucks are cheaper per km. Not even counting in tolls which electric semi trucks don't have to pay till 2031 in many regions. Which is also about 30-40 euros per 100km.
Logistics are not gonna replaces their existing fleet immediately because who can afford it? And given that electric semi trucks are extremely young still, their is obviously some doubt in many people who would rather go with a proven technology but last years success of electric semi trucks will change that.
Btw, h2 semi trucks cost about 1.50 euros per km (10ish kg per 100km at 16 euros per kg of h2)
But this moves the goal post. Initially I commented because of the statement that 552 miles would lose time in an EV which is not true. If you make a small 10-15 minute break after 3h, which you should for safety, EVs have essentially infinite range because you charge more than 3h of driving in 15 minutes of charging. And you don't have to supervise your car while doing so or have to move it from the pump to a parking slot. So EVs actually save you time compared to gasoline.
It’s all personal situation dependent. I did 900 miles in my rivian and I spent less time (actively being involved in) charging than I used to spend refueling my Tacoma because the charging could be done at my two hotels. The one stop that I did fast charge at I was already planning to stop there for pizza on my way home on Friday.
Everyone needs to determine if their personal situation makes it more annoying or if the cost savings can be worth it. My lifetime charging costs on the rivian are in the ballpark of 70mpg because I have extremely cheap home energy. That’s a massive savings over 5 years of planned ownership.
If you're doing trips every year that require ~8hrs of driving on such a tight schedule that you can't stop even for 15-20 minutes you're not typical, which is my point.
30 minutes of my time is far more valuable than the difference in fuel, even filling up my TRX.
EVs make sense for daily commuting within its range capacity. As soon as you have to ever use a public charger and wait it's simply not worth it. If time is so invaluable that you are okay waiting an extra 25 minutes to charge then it's likely time to update that resume.
30 minutes is a huge amount of time. It's 1/32nd of your waking hours.
Maybe on an home based L2 charger doing 0-100%.
On a fast charger 5% to 80% is anywhere between 15 to 45 minutes depending on the vehicle.
Let’s not be hyperbolic, that’s the reason so much misinformation floats around about EVs.
You can go on A Better Route Planner and test out different routes and different vehicles.
Size of vehicle doesn’t matter. The size of the pack is all that matters. Even a Silverado EV can do 100 miles of range in 10 minutes.
Silverado EV from 10 to 80% is 45 minutes and a full 0-100% is 1.5 hours.
You’re not L2 charging on a road trip.
They do. There are plenty of websites which will help you find them. There may be less, but saying they don’t exist is largely incorrect.
You’re just making excuses to justify your incorrect and outdated opinion.
https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=LR_RWD_NV35&o=New%20York,%20NY,%20USA_New%20York%20NY%20US@40.7127753,-74.0059728&s=&d=Los%20Angeles,%20CA,%20USA_Los%20Angeles%20Los%20Angeles%20County%20CA@34.0549076,-118.242643
Click on get route. Its from new york city to LA. Cross country.
Almost all charging is done in 10-20 minutes with only two charge stops being 35 minutes. Where is bumfuck without chargers?
You can also do Nashville to Seattle and there you have one 30 min stop and otherwise only 20 minutes and lower
You are not aware that EVs save you time????
You don't go out of you way to charge it like you do with refilling your gas car. You charge where you park.
Thinking to go out of your way to charge is gas brain thinking. And that line of thinking makes the US charging infrastructure so horrible because there are no destination chargers anywhere. You cannot walk 2 meters without tripping over a charge port in Europe.
EVs save time! Update your resume
Tbf you can easily lose that 30min for oil change/brakes/etc that you wouldn’t have to worry about in an EV.
😂 I’d argue it’s time to update the resume if you need to account for every minute on a roadtrip especially if it’s for vacation
Not during the previous time of a long distance trip.
Why am I wasting vacation time sitting at a charger? I’ll just pay the $100 and leave in 3 minutes.
> Why am I wasting vacation time sitting at a charger?
Why are you wasting all your other time at gas stations?
And why are you wasting your time taking super long road trips instead of flying? *If time is so invaluable that you are okay driving an extra 5 hours instead of flying then it's likely time to update that resume.*
A fill up is 3-5 minutes.
It's wholly inconvenient to fly to our beach house. Airports are 45 and 1:30 minutes away from home and beach with flight time of roughly 2 hours plus wait time at the airport of 1hr+. Travel time by car is 9 hours with 2 stops. Flight time saves around 3 hours, and that does not account for dealing with obtaining a full size SUV rental vehicle for the family so we are comfortable and can do whatever housework is needed.
Flight costs are in the neighborhood of $2500 round trip for my family. The best case 6 hours total saved by flying I am still losing $400 based on my rate of $350/hr. This is all assuming I'm not working a significant portion of the drive.
Didn't even include the items we're not unable to bring due to luggage restrictions flying, which means I have to rebuy them at the destination.
Another situation is family dinners. Round trip is 5:30. No charging would be available at the destination, only 110v outlets are anywhere near where cars are. There are a total of 2 EV chargers in the entire town as well. Closest area with "multiple" chargers is 20 miles in the wrong direction. This would make an already long day extra long, and potentially leave the vehicle stranded.
Flying again would make no sense. Airport is 45 minutes from me and the closes to them is 1:15 minutes unless I flew private myself and then it's only 15 minutes and 10 minutes.
EVs are pretty shit as a primary vehicle and can't really be used as one unless you live in a city, never leave it, have no children, and have no assets that need cared for.
> Travel time by car is 9 hours with 2 stops (only one refuel needed, but food is nice).
Funny how stopping time is a huge showstopper when it's in an EV but in a gas car suddenly you're cool making extra stops for no vehicle reason whatsoever.
>and can do whatever housework is needed.
*If time is so invaluable that you are okay doing your own housekeeping instead of hiring someone then it's likely time to update that resume.*
>This is all assuming I'm not working a significant portion of the drive.
See there's that double standard again...you can work just fine in a gas car, but you're unable to work while an EV charges?
>which means I have to rebuy them at the destination.
Why don't you just keep your beach house stocked with what you need? That's what we've done with our lake cabin and Miami condo...barely need to pack anything, we can just show up and relax.
> Funny how stopping time is a huge showstopper when it's in an EV but in a gas car suddenly you're cool making extra stops for no vehicle reason whatsoever.
The stop time is inadequate for charging.
> If time is so invaluable that you are okay doing your own housekeeping instead of hiring someone then it's likely time to update that resume.
That is something enjoyed. Housekeepers are not a thing for us.
> See there's that double standard again...you can work just fine in a gas car, but you're unable to work while an EV charges?
No, the double standard is having to wait extra time sitting and not moving.
> Why don't you just keep your beach house stocked with what you need? That's what we've done with our lake cabin and Miami condo...barely need to pack anything, we can just show up and relax.
Timeframes between going is unknown. Children age and need different things no reason to buy duplicates of expensive items then then have to set them up again (ex: snoo).
>I see you ignored the part of my post where using an EV is a near impossibility based on inconvenience
Lol no, I spent my whole comment showing how your particular requirements are both unusual and hypocritical. That all demonstrates how your sweeping conclusion is completely off base. Sorry I didn't spell it out for you, guess I overestimated your ability to reason.
You glossed over the most frequent requirement. EV doesn't work and would require out of the way charging, adding over an hour to the already long day.
You're not going to get me to agree. Every EV on the market right now is shit due to the lack of infrastructure and charge times. Get the charge time down to 5 minutes for a full charge of 400+ miles (not 80% charge) with stations no more than 10 minutes apart and it can compete.
The value proposition doesn't exist based on depreciation. The performance proposition doesn't exist due to weight and unsolved heat issues. The convenience proposition doesn't exist as it nearly requires you to own multiple vehicles unless you live in a city, never leave it, have no kids, and own nothing.
The 1/2 ton pickup is the ideal primary vehicle. No compromises outside of efficiency, and even then some models still are at ~30MPG.
> would require out of the way charging, adding over an hour to the already long day.
Yeah and all of us are in a super time crunch but still drive 5 hours for dinner several times a week 🙄 completely unusable for literally everyone
>You're not going to get me to agree.
I never thought you would.
>The 1/2 ton pickup is the ideal primary vehicle. No compromises outside of efficiency, and even then some models still are at ~30MPG.
Huh, so weight is a huge deal when it's an ev, but not a consideration whatsoever when it's a gas pickup. More double standards.
> I never thought you would.
Then why TF do you keep arguing with him?
EV enthusiasts HATE whenever there are people whose use case is not valid for an EV.
No, you really can't, or you'd see how he's not just saying "current EVs aren't the best match for my incredibly unusual needs" he's saying that EVs are bad for virtually everyone, and using some conflicting logic as evidence. That's what I'm pushing back on, him thinking his singular experience is universal.
His notions of how EV's are inferior are legitimate. They take longer to refuel, have less range, their public charging infrastructure is nowhere near gasoline, and they are heavier than their gas counterparts. That's not opinion - that is objective data.
Those are compromises that you deal with when you have an EV. Some people can fit those compromises in their lifestyle, some can't. That guy can't, and you are just trying to "poke holes" in it (as you literally said).
He also ignores that full size pickup and suv EVs take hours upon hours on fast chargers for even an 80% charge. Yup, gonna sit at a charger for 8 hours to charge to 80% during my otherwise 9 hour trip…. (Per GM times).
> Life isn’t planned or delayed for refilling. Any delay is unacceptable.
So then why are you so committed to twisting all your preferences toward the vehicle that you cannot simply refill at home?
>my trx, the heaviest half ton.
My point exactly.....you don't care about weight at all, except when you use it to reinforce your predetermined conclusion.
> So then why are you so committed to twisting all your preferences toward the vehicle that you cannot simply refill at home?
Because there is no large SUV EV (only one that exists is hummer ev) that can charge quickly enough at home to be useful. It takes 1 week to charge with a level 1 charger, an entire week. Level 2 is still not overnight.
> My point exactly.....you don't care about weight at all, except when you use it to reinforce your predetermined conclusion.
Weight is an issue. For a set purpose a heavier vehicle is inferior, for both on and offroad. The reason for the weight is what matters. Is there a benefit created by the addons that created the weight? Yes, then it's fine. No, then it's not.
It's 3000lbs more in the same form factor with less capability, less convenience. It pigeon holes tires as well to less performant higher load rated tires.
You're really trying to push EVs into every area. They're all just flat out bad now.
>It takes 1 week to charge with a level 1 charger, an entire week. Level 2 is still not overnight.
Ohhh yeah and now your house has such terrible electricity that you can barely spare a single 11v outlet 🙄
>For a set purpose a heavier vehicle is inferior, for both on and offroad.
Oh are these frequent 5 hour road trips for dinner actually completely off-road, you gotta run the desert to get to momma's house?
>Weight is an issue.
So then why did you buy the heaviest pickup in the category? Evidently you don't actually value weight that highly when it's a gas pickup you're picking out.
>You're really trying to push EVs into every area.
Where have I done that at all? All I have done is poke holes in your bizarre hypocritical requirements that you seem to think are universal.
> Ohhh yeah and now your house has such terrible electricity that you can barely spare a single 11v outlet
Knowing so much about EVs you should know the battery sizes and charge times/capacity. Level 2 fast charger takes upward of 24 hours for charging a Hummer EV PER GM.
> Oh are these frequent 5 hour road trips for dinner actually completely off-road, you gotta run the desert to get to momma's house?
Biweekly.
> So then why did you buy the heaviest pickup in the category? Evidently you don't actually value weight that highly when it's a gas pickup you're picking out.
Because of general capability for my job. I often need to get to bumfuck counties for court during questionable conditions such as now. There are no better vehicles for that than the Raptor R and TRX. Weight 100% was a consideration.
> Where have I done that at all? All I have done is poke holes in your bizarre hypocritical requirements that you seem to think are universal.
Not bizarre. it's just not drinking the EV koolaid. Waiting is shit, range is shit, weight is shit, convenience is horrendous, costs are worse due to depreciation, performance is worse.
Trying to find all of these pros that apparently exist.
>Level 2 fast charger takes upward of 24 hours for charging a Hummer EV PER GM.
Do you need to fill your TRX tank from empty every single day? Or is this another magic double standard where your trx 300 miles per tank is totally fine but the Hummer's 300 miles are not enough?
And why can't you install a proper L2 charger at home? It's "only" ~10 hours @ 80a.
> EVs are pretty shit as a primary vehicle and can't really be used as one unless you live in a city, never leave it, have no children, and have no assets that need cared for.
For your use case. Not so for many many others.
If it’s not body of frame 1/2 ton or bigger in size then it is for all in the states. Can’t move basic things needed as a homeowner without one or participate in any activity with significant equipment. I’d go as far to say lockers and 4x4 are required for a primary if your latitude is 32 degrees or higher. Emergencies can and do occur where AWD is inadequate. Those conditions are being seen in much of the country right now.
Guy I’m responding to is worried about losing time charging on a trip. I’m saying you’d lose just as much time doing maintenance outside of the trip. Have both types of car, definitely waste more time on my gas car
Which doesn't fucking matter. Your time during a trip is far more important than outside of a trip. Less time waiting around for no fucking reason and more time getting to your hotel or doing the shit you want to do. Not waiting in a fucking Stripmall in the middle of bumfuck nowhere for your care to charge. I want to be sitting relaxing near the pool, or near a fireplace. Not sitting in my car.
No one cares about the maintenance outside of the trip. Having to go to the dealership to get the maintenance done once a year is literally nothing time wise. It takes 2 hours if that even.
Times Value changes depending on what you are doing. During vacation times value goes up exponentially. Outside of a vacation your time is worth a lot less.
Exactly this. 30 minutes during a trip is huge, especially not moving. Anyone with young kids knows that time sitting still results in meltdowns instead of naps. That 30 minutes multiple times throughout a week long trip destroys the trip as now everything is planned around charging instead of refueling being an afterthought
Maybe your trips are different but from my experience most people stop every three hours for 15/20 minutes bathroom gas and/or food stops anyway. So if you count that, it’s really only adding up 10-15 minutes extra of waiting
If you can plug in at home and/or destination, you could save time compared to going to a gas station each week or whatever.
> If time is so invaluable that you are okay waiting an extra 25 minutes to charge then it's likely time to update that resume.
You have like 16'000 comment karma on Reddit in just one year, post multiple times daily? Which is fine, I have more, but most people aren't going to monetize every waking minute of their life.
The average American driver travels 30 miles per day, people in other countries even less.
If the average driver has access to a charging point at home or destination, an EV could easily be the primary vehicle, without ever needing to wait for charging.
It's not about the daily, it's about the semi frequent non-daily use that's the issue, which makes it a useless primary vehicle.
TBH only ICE 1/2 ton pickups and BoF SUVs are truly adequate primary vehicles as you really never need to be concerned with its capabilities in terms of capacity or range. EVs always have capacity and range issues by their nature at this point in time, at least until there is a gasoline range extender added, making the EV version of the Pickup/SUV capable of being that primary.
Primary can’t reasonably be done without. 2nd, 3rd, or 4th can. EV can be done without. It is rather difficult and inconvenient not to have an ICE vehicle in the US due to distances and stations.
Yeah that's the fallacy. Everyone counting occasional extra time at a public charger, and not counting all the gas stops they would be avoiding charging at home most nights.
It's about how long you have to stop and what you do when you're away
For a 5 hour drive, I am stopping once.
With gas, we can be back on the road with a full tank in under 10 minutes.
There'll be a half tank left when I arrive. Plenty for getting around
I won't have to find a charger wherever I'm staying. I can refill to 100% in under 5 minutes before hitting the road home.
> It's about how long you have to stop and what you do when you're away .. and the return trip
>
> For a 5 hour drive, I am stopping once.
>
> With gas, we can be back on the road with a full tank in under 10 minutes.
How often are you taking those kinds of road trips? Every other day, you'll be starting from home with a full tank every day with virtually zero effort.
I live in Chicago and park on the street, so no full tank every day for me
Most of my mileage is from long drives, here's my plans
Ski trip to northern WI for Presidents Day
Cards game in May in STL
Maybe the Indy 500
Northern MI for July 4th
Maybe WI in August
Thanksgiving in OH
Christmas in southern FL. Planning to drive so we can bring the dog and spend a week
Even if I did, an EV on all those trips ranges somewhere between a major inconvenience or an impossibility
The WI and MI legs are to towns that have 1 or 2 public chargers in them
And, there's no way in fuck I'm running an extension cable out the window and down the driveway at my in-laws
> The WI and MI legs are to towns that have 1 or 2 public chargers in them
>
> And, there's no way in fuck I'm running an extension cable out the window and down the driveway at my in-laws
........right, for sure. Those would both fall under "no reliable place to charge".
I'd take it you're not an overnight guest at anyone's house very often
And you've have never seen a completely full charging station without the time to wait for whomever is there to come back
You see no issue staying at someone else's house, snaking an extension cable out their window and down their driveway, and running up their electric bill
Rude & behavior like that is how you don't get invited back.
> You see no issue staying at someone else's house, snaking an extension cable out their window and down their driveway, and running up their electric bill
Lol what, where are you getting that from?? Do you have dyslexia or something?
I said that running an extension cable is not a reliable way to charge.
> Ski trip to northern WI for Presidents Day
>
> Cards game in May in STL
>
> Maybe the Indy 500
>
> Northern MI for July 4th
>
> Maybe WI in August
Can we be friends? I don't ski but I do like baseball.
A 5hr trip with 1 10-15 minute stop will usually leave us with ~30-50% charge (depending on conditions) on arrival too which is plenty to drive around.
If I can't get overnight charging then yeah, it's a little slower on the way up by maybe 10 minutes charging vs fill-up.
If I do get an overnight charge I don't need to stop for that fill on the way out though and I will probably be on the road back faster.
For example my ski travel has actually been faster than with my ICE vehicles. I can charge at the lodges we stay at so I skip an entire stop pretty much every trip.
I took a road trip about 300 miles each way in mine this weekend. Not a problem at all. I did have a brutal headwind and brutal cold on the way there, but just took one extra stop for 15 minutes or so to top up and it wasn't an issue.
Ironically it actually worked out perfectly. Got up Saturday morning with about 25% charge left and found a Casey's with a charger about 3/4 mile from the shelter I was going to in order to potentially take home a dog (spoiler: I did). Parked the car on the charger and had a lovely walk with my existing dog to the shelter for the meet-and-greet and by the time I made the decision, filled out all the paperwork and walked both of them back to my car it was charged to 97% and thanks to preconditioning through the app was nice and warm.
I took an extra stop on the way back mostly to let the dogs out... didn't need it quite as badly as on the way out :)
They don’t road trip just fine. They lose 50% range in Canadian winters, and chargers here are sparse with massive amount of distance between cities. They’re strictly city cars. Going outside city limits is a death wish here.
Yeah I road trip my model 3 many times a year from Long Island NY to Ottawa Canada. The trip takes exactly 10 hours no matter if I take the Tesla or my Tacoma pickup truck. There are dozens of possible supercharger stations all the way in the USA but then once we get into Canada the charger infrastructure is much more sparse. Inside Ottawa central there is really only one Tesla charger. It’s inside the Rideau Centre parking mall which is great for walking around warm and cozy while your car charges but you also have to pay for the parking garage to get in.
Problem around here is charging availability. Im in suburban Iowa. My in laws live in rural farm country. There are no good charging solutions between there house and mine.
My biggest problem with this is it's just true enough to be annoying. I never road trip in my EV because even though I can usually find a route that bounces between chargers I don't like having my route dictated to me. Just because you *can* road trip an EV doesn't mean it's going to be a better experience than a gas car.
Yeah this has been my experience too. My bladder defines how frequently I stop the car, not the car's range. By the time I've done my business, stretched out a bit, gotten a fresh beverage, etc, the additional time waiting for the car to charge is usually less than 10 mins.
Unless you live somewhere very rural, or regularly go somewhere very rural, I agree. Something like the Ioniq 5, the Mercedes CLA, the Macan, or other similar cars, even under poor conditions, you’re talking 3 hours of driving, then a 20 minute stop, then another 3 hours driving. Anything less than 3 hours driving a day from home refills by the next day. Under good conditions it’s more like 4 hours, or for the best cars 5 hours.
Unless the person is a commercial salesman going continuously point to point, that is not a problem for most people. Most people rarely drive more than 3-4 hours a day anyway.
I think the problem is more in places where the chargers are not common. The key is not the stopping time, it’s whether there are chargers where you happen to want to stop for lunch, or to stretch you legs.
I do agree there are fewer options, for now at least. We have sometimes done a little extra planning to have an arrival charge we want when it's more rural.
A lot of hotels even without chargers have let us plug in with our slow charger though if we ask.
Some state parks with camp grounds will let you use the RV hookups too.
Ski lodges have started adding L2 chargers to their parking lots as well which is handy even for day trips.
We do a lot of hiking, camping, skiing which tends to be more rural activities and it's consistently gotten better over time.
You can definitely make it work, and you demonstrate that, but I think we’ll need more of a build out of infrastructure before most people doing similar things are comfortable. Ten years down the line all of those hotels will have banks of destination chargers and it will be incredibly easy.
I own a home in Fairbanks, AK.
My electricity is mostly from burning coal and costs ~$0.38/kwh. My daily commute including errands is ~40-50 miles. I do not have a garage.
Does it still make sense for me to have an EV? (Not trying to be facetious)
Yes if you are in the market for a new car. Of you wanna shop used, it depends.
1 ev commuters are more comfortable and fun to drive than gas commuters
2 less struggle with forced maintenance
3 depending on what price range you are shopping and how mich horsepower, EVs probably save money on gas. EVs use about 13-25kwh per 60 miles driven (13kwh for small compact cars like Dacia Spring which you don't have in the US, large SUVs use much more power). So a regular car at 17kwh/60miles costs about 6.50$ for 60 miles. A gas car using 30 mpg (2 gallon / 60miles) would be 7-12$ per 60 miles depending on how high your gas prices are and wheather you use 89 or 93 octane. I don't know how much EV tax you have to pay.
4 you also reduce local tail pipe emissions and global greenhouse emissions if you drive an EV, no matter the fuel source. Even a coal run EV.
5 you might have the option down the line to install roof top solar which makes charging the car extremely cheap. Can be cheaper than 1$ for 60 miles
Used EVs are hitting the market and they are cheap. You might find a good like like a used Ioniq 5 or Model 3 which both age quite good (don't buy old leafs).
If its a financial decision, you have to do the math. Look at reports from users with real kwh usage and local taxes and gas prices. But if its not just a financial decision and you want to have a better, easier, and cleaner vehicle, EVs make sense for everyone
Alaska = No EV.
I have spent some time in EVs in Alaska and I can tell you it was miserable.
Also I hold a burning hatred for the Fairbanks airport and the enterprise rent a car people there.
If you can install L2 charging, yeah. Outside of the range hit, EVs are great in the cold. Don’t need to wait for them to warm up at all and will always start up easily, no block heater required. So much more convenient to leave heat running etc too. You will need to get something with a heat pump though.
>Does it still make sense for me to have an EV? (Not trying to be facetious)
No. You'll pay about double per mile in the gas/electricity analysis, even when accounting for the lower mpgs in cold weather.
As someone with an EV, no. 0.38/kwh is about break even with gas in terms of price at those temps, and you'd have to be charging like all the time, which means a lot of issues with the charger freezing to the car.
I would say 100% it’s worth it. You’ll save thousands every year on much more expensive gas, and you’ll never ever stand out there in the freezing cold pumping gas again. Every day you leave your home, you’ll be fully charged. A small efficient EV with an EPA range of 350 miles like a Model 3 will get you 200-250 miles in a cold climate which is apparently enough for your daily use.
40-50 miles is no problem for a modern EV, even charging outside in sub zero temps.
Are you asking if you’d save money with an EV? Depends on how much gas costs you, what mpg you’d be getting in whatever gas powered car you’d be driving.
Oh man, of course you can’t get that using a crappy old L1 charger. I figured obviously we were talking about an outdoor L2 charging setup, not a big deal to get that.
You have to convert your mpg to miles per dollar for your ICE car, do the same for a prospective EV. the temperature will greatly affect miles per KW on an EV (and this miles per dollar).
After you do that for each month of the year (remember the average temperature for each month will reduce or improve the EV numbers), average it out for an annual average for the EV and compare to your ICE car and prospective other ice cars. (If you would be thinking of buying an EV, you should consider if it's better to buy a more fuel efficient ICE car as well)
If the EV is worse by a little, you probably can make that up by way of the maintenance being cheaper. If it's worse by more than like 10 or 15% there's not really a viable way to make the numbers pencil out in favor of an EV.
You say Fairbanks Alaska, so that's got to be some of the most extreme weather you could subject an EV to, it would be wise to leave it plugged in constantly so the battery management system can heat the battery if it's like negative 30 out. That would also increase electricity consumption as well.
The only hope the EV has of winning this comparison is if you pay like 6 or 7$ a gallon for gas. My guess is it just makes sense to get a more fuel efficient ICE vehicle.
I don't know how any of these people are giving you answers without knowing what gas car you drive nor what you pay for gas.
What EV are you looking at, and which gas car would it be competing against?
I know you’re sealioning, but I will grace you with enough response to say: there aren’t enough garages for that to present to a concern anyway, and L1 charging draws a very small amount of electricity.
It's a legitimate concern. As EV adoption rises, this will become more of an issue. Right now, there are few enough EV's on the road where a couple of charger stalls in an apartment complex is good enough. But there are apartments without garages where people won't have their own L1 charger. As more EV's are sold and used, the infrastructure will need to expand by magnitudes to support this for anyone not living in a home or parking in their own garage.
Okay. So let’s expand and improve the infrastructure instead of relying on that as if it’s some ace-in-the-hole argument against anybody ever using an EV.
It's an argument against mainstream adoption because it will take a monumental amount of money and time for infrastructure upgrades that are needed. Many billions of dollars for new power plants, and the transmission infrastructure to support them. Will likely decades.
The energy infrastructure in the united states has needed upgrades for decades. The AI boom has created massive private investment in generation (that is obviously earmarked for AI data centers). However, that investment has meant renewed pushes to build new nuclear and especially SMRs to supply centers. SMRs have always languished because they needed the startup capital to become viable. A similar story is playing out with fusion.
I think that you will see a continuous increase in EVs, and generation will not be the issue. Supply may be at first, but most can be charged during low demand times.
Countries that are forward thinking and that have different baggage are majority EV for new sales. I see it everywhere.
They are proposing a SMR in my town. Timeline is over 5 years until functional. But the bottleneck for EV charging is the last mile install. It will be the same as internet - we have had fiber internet for 20 years, and only within the last couple years have they been doing the last mile part of the install into homes.
EV mass adoption is just going to take a long time, likely decades.
> it will take a monumental amount of money and time for infrastructure upgrades that are needed
Not "monumental".
>Many billions of dollars for new power plants, and the transmission infrastructure to support them. Will likely take decades.
And how do you think we expanded our capacity to extract, refine, transport, and store petroleum products?
Shouldn't you also be out worrying over the AI datacenter boom? They will consume far more electricity than a 100% EV adoption rate. Yet our admin doesn't seem worried about that at all.... odd.
Anyway, the entire point of the grid is that it can expand. It's a solved problem and we will need to expand it *anyway* unless we're planning on shrinking our population and economy.
Simple. There is more money to be made with prioritizing AI datacenter infrastructure than there is the infrastructure for people to charge their EV's.
Datacenters being built now are already on a 5+ year wait for power. They are having to build new power plants just for this in some areas, which in itself is 5+ years. Entire companies that specialize in portable turbine power stations just for data centers have spawned because of the need.
Nothing for charging EV's will happen until the power and infrastructure for the datacenters is done. This is why we are decades away from this for EV charging.
>There is more money to be made
So we think OpenAI is going to be able to pay off the $1T in commitments they've made in under a decade?
>Every decision in our world revolves around how much money can be made from it
This intuits, but it's not true. The fact that we're having this convo demonstrates it. The internet is not a result of profit motive. HTML is not the result of profit motive. HTTP is not the result of profit motive. The Gecko, Chromium, and WebKit browser engines are not the result of a profit motive.
Shoot, this is also true for GPS, a lot of antibiotics, etc. etc.
>Datacenters being built now are already on a 5+ year wait for power. They are having to build new power plants just for this in some areas, which in itself is 5+ years. Entire companies that specialize in portable turbine power stations just for data centers have spawned because of the need.
This is all true. And yes, I know engineers at Borg-Warner who've worked on portable nat gas power solutions.
The EV transition isn't gonna flip to 100% in a year. It'll follow the same trajectory; and therefore it goes to show that this hypothesized catastrophe is nonsense.
>Nothing for charging EV's will happen until the power and infrastructure for the datacenters is done. This is why we are decades away from this for EV charging.
This isn't remotely true.
1. Power generation follows demand. If there is demand for more energy, it will be built.
2. This assumes that every single locality is going to dedicate 100% of their new capacity to datacenters; that's literally impossible.
3. This assumes that AI demand will hold steady in the coming years. Also not possible. Anthropic and OpenAI's reps pitch products assuming that 100% of enterprise development will be done using their metered API's. This could not be further from the truth.
> The internet is not a result of profit motive.
No, but look at things like last mile fiber internet. We've had fiber internet for 20 years now, but it's taken that long just to get the last mile built out because there was no monetary incentive to do it.
> Power generation follows demand. If there is demand for more energy, it will be built.
Who is going to pay for the up front costs? Also, what is the ROI going to be on it? The infrastructure is not going to exist unless some company can profit from it.
> No, but look at things like last mile fiber internet. We've had fiber internet for 20 years now, but it's taken that long just to get the last mile built out because there was no monetary incentive to do it.
Largely yes, another component is regulatory capture. But my point overall is that profit motive doesn't dictate *everything* in our lives. Is it a massive force? Absolutely. But to claim that nothing will ever happen unless it's immediately profitable is to ignore everything China has done over the last 20 years.
>Who is going to pay for the up front costs? Also, what is the ROI going to be on it? The infrastructure is not going to exist unless some company can profit from it.
Cellular infrastructure, broadband, fiber, etc. all exist because of gov action. None of those things were built out by profit seeking companies because as above; I agree that profit motive is a massive force.
If we were smart, we'd provide incentives to modernize our grid and energy production. But even then, solar + storage is getting so cheap that it is straight up profitable to build out at scale right now. So it's entirely possible right now to build out capacity with the EV transition.
The biggest hurdle right now is that our current policy is to keep the US dependent on energy sources that are affected by what's happening in other countries. Permitting/licensing/approval etc. are being weaponized to deliberately make it harder to build these sources out.
Anyway, China has solved this problem. EVs, solar, and battery storage are growing at breakneck pace outside of the US. If we keep ignoring this, the US will become totally irrelevant in the energy and transportation sectors.
A childhood buddy of mine was in a JSOC unit up until a few months ago, I say this because he's obviously traveled a LOT. He said it's insane how fast Chinese PHEVs/EVs/solar farms/wind farms have taken off globally and how American media is essentially ignoring it outside of forums like this. China is all over South America, Africa, obv Asia, etc. building out these energy sources and delivering cars. This isn't some theoretical phenomenon. It's happening right now.
AI Datacenters are years out from getting power. It's bad enough that entire companies that supply mobile turbine power stations have sprung up just for this need.
Datacenters are getting priority because there is more money to be had from them than beefing up the grid so people can charge their EV's. Everything in our world is prioritized around what makes the most money.
> It's bad enough that entire companies that supply mobile turbine power stations have sprung up just for this need.
No reason this couldn't also be done as a stopgap to support EVs, should the need actually arise, except...
> Datacenters are getting priority because there is more money to be had from them
I know. Exactly. It's not that we can't beef up the power grid; it's that those in charge didn't see a need to, until they saw a huge opportunity for a money/data grab.
A standard 120 outlet can only provide so much juice. It's why every space heater is rated at 1500 watts - that is about all the 120 outlet on a 15 amp circuit can push. A 20 amp circuit can only do about 2400 watts, but that is max.
Sigh. Lost about an hour of sleep today because my neighbor's Tundra did not like starting in the cold this morning and he let it idle for quite a while.
And at 3-5 miles of range per hour of charging that might be fine for you, or it might not. Everyone’s needs are a little different. Though I do think that a lot of people that think they could never get by with an electric car would actually be just fine and come out ahead financially. Even if it means renting a car for a few days once or twice a year to make some really long trip.
Had a performance EV will living in an apartment with street parking. Never had a problem?
Saved a lot of money on gas and a lot of time not having to drive to gas stations.
America's car centric city design isnt car owner friendly and you have no way of charging your EV if you don't have a drive way. Other regions however figured it out.
The previous place I lived, the HOA forbade running cords across the sidewalk and the green space across from homes was owned by them. They also had a rule that you couldn't alter the appearance of your front garden. Like, if a shrub died, you had to replace it with the same species even. So, 1) fuck HOAs, and 2) sometimes even home owners are blocked by shitty policies.
Greatly depends on where you live. I live in an apartment and there are dozens of public charging points available within walking distance. Netherlands.
How do costs compare generally in the Netherlands with public charging vs. gasoline? In the US, public charging can be quite expensive and we have cheap gas.
A bit more is an understatement, gas is around 2.20 euro per liter, that’s around $10 per gallon.
Electricity is €0.23 ($0.27) at home and between €0.32 and 0.55 for public AC charging.
Agreed. In the USA according to the Census Bureau that is currently 65% of the population. That’s a lot of people but also a lot of people who shouldn’t yet buy an EV for their family.
great for homeowners, also good for anyone who lives in one of the increasing number of apartment complexes where they include charging onsite. apartments.com even has a filter for EV charging!
Not really for a lot of home owners either. I have a 1 car garage that serves as the only storage in my house and also as a laundry room. There’s 0 chance I could ever put a car in there. I couldn’t put a charger outside either without an HOA complaint
Level 1 chargers (110V, aka US wall outlet) get you about 3-5 miles per hour of charging.
So, if your car is home and charging for, say, 12 hours, that's 36-50 miles. If your commute is half that, you're in luck!
But you'll need to find another charger or plan to charge for more time before longer drives. It is getting easier to find chargers, even DC fast chargers, and Level 2 chargers aren't THAT expensive or difficult if your electric system can handle it.
Just know that Level 1 charging is quite slow. But also totally fine for many people's use.
Energy is energy. 110 vs 240 doesn't matter. It'll cost the same. If you add enough charge for 30 miles of range over 10 hours or 2 hours, your bill will be the same.
The car is the arbiter of how much power comes through. The charger itself just sets the upper bound of what it can do and the car asks for as much as it needs within that chargers parameters
Makes total sense that the amount of energy that moves the car does not change. I guess one potential factor would be that the high speed charger could cram the 30 miles worth of charging into a window of time overnight when power is at it's cheapest (if the power companies still do that). I would assume that any difference in efficiency between the 110v and 240v charger is not enough to tip the scales. Given the amount of energy to propel a vehicle for 50 miles, the heat coming off the charger is margin-of-error small.
> how the cost of electricity per mile compares to a 240v charger?
The cost of electricity at home is fixed - the meter doesn't know whether you're using 110 or 240/220.
What matters is the time of day you're charging. Our electric company has variable rates, but as a general rule, most of the plans charge about 4 times as much in the afternoon/early evening as they do after midnight. There is one plan that charges 1/12 of the peak daytime price after 2:00AM.
Most people with EVs will program the charger/car to only take juice after they get into the cheaper windows.
Past research on the Leaf forums has a 120v like 3% more efficient than a 240v but ultimately AC charging is basically the same efficiency: it's literally just a speed difference.
DC fast charging is get less efficient than AC due to the massive amount of heat, Voltage step ups, and other switching.
No, only 12 amps on most chargers. I commute 30 miles a day and charge on 110v. only have to plug it in every other day to stay over 70% SOC. At 12 cents per kwH I pay about $40 a month to charge it. Cheaper than gas at 30mpg.
My work did that, built a load of chargers that were free and launched a really good car scheme. Then they made the chargers really expensive and many broke. People were not happy.
I’ve got one at work and I love it. I do have a charger in my apartment complex, but they bill me for charging hours even if I’m full, so I charge at work when I can.
The range anxiety is what kills it for me. I make 300+ mile trips often on weekends, and the mass inconvenience of finding a charger when I travel to “charging deserts” so often just does not work for me. We got my wife a hybrid Venza and love it to death for trips now, though. Overall I loved it, but I’m probably going to be getting a gas car again when my lease expires this year. Just not worth the frustration to me.
Free charging at work as well made me take the plunge. I'm there 5 days a week. Put the deposit down on Friday to give myself the weekend to think about it. Wiring the money tomorrow. CPO 2023 Genesis GV60 Performance. 0-60 in 3.7. Faster than a C7 Vette. White nappa leather quilted seats, heated and cooled seats, heads up display, massaging drivers seat, autonomous driving, 17 speaker Band & Olufsen surround...loaded. So psyched.
It’s m’s. So mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
About 1/4 wheel rotation
Yeah, that sounds about right. It's like EVs really shine in a very specific setup, but push beyond that and hybrids or gas just feel more practical for now.
> Doing it once a year is enough to be concerned if their vehicle can handle it or not.
But it can. There is no road trip you can't already do with an EV. It might be slightly less frictionless but it is so much more frictionless the rest of the year that frequency is actually all that matters.
I think you're looking at this the wrong way round.
If every car on the road needed to charge for 40 minutes every 2 hours of driving, and you invented one that could drive for 6 hours and then be recharged in 5 minutes, that would be a massive improvement.
What if that first one took zero time out of your day to charge for 95% of the year and the other one required you to spend 5-10 minutes every week or two?
>zero time out of your day to charge
Sure, let's just ignore the process of installing a home charger, the cost and the maintenance.
>$1500-2000 per year on fuel
Good as long as I can get another nice car like mine for about $13,000. If the car is over $30,000 then that kind of yearly saving is not worth it.
And we're still going to need at least one family car that we can take on holiday to remote rural areas.
You were the one who wanted compare on one factor alone. No one said anything about you specifically being better off with an EV or being able to get one for $13,000.
Your point was about EVs needing to charge for 40 minutes every two hours (which isn't even close to accurate to begin with) and that being a waste of time compared to ICE. But aside from road trips, charging takes no time. The time spent charging aspect is a plus for EVs because the average ICE owner spends way more time at a gas station each year than an EV owner spends at a charger.
But I should have know. By your comment that you weren't actually interested in a real discussion.
>But I should have known by your comment that you weren't actually interested in a real discussion.
Well you're the one being rude.
And Ok, you save some money on fuel but the car is WAY more expensive, but apparently I'm the one not interested in a proper discussion. Maybe if EV enthusiasts actually listened to people they would realize it's 75% about total cost of owning and running the car, with a side element of "is this going to be better overall than my current car".
Yup, if I summed up time spent getting gas, it’s way more than time spent on occasional stop charging for a road trip.
You also have time sinks of oil changes, brake changes etc. Having both, it’s clear more time is spent on the gas car.
Installing home charger is cheap, was only 300 for the install and there’s no maintenance. Worth it for having full tank everyday and not having to stop by gas stations
I am doing a 552 mile trip in May that requires me to be at the ferry port at a specific time, before ending in rural Ireland. My petrol car can do that trip happily in a single tank. If I had an EV it would take what will already be a very long day of driving and turn it into something actually problematic.
I like EVs as daily commuters but if you have to drive long distances, even a few times a year, petrols or diesels make more sense
If it's infrequent, you can rent or put up with a slightly longer road trip. That's the point. If you take an eight hour road trip once per year, is it a big deal if it takes nine hours instead of eight? No, and you make way more than that hour up by not having to go to the gas station the rest of the year.
If you're doing that kind of trip every other week, it's a totally different deal.
So of course frequency matters and isn't meaningless.
While that is perfectly rational and reasonable, that is unfortunately not how most people make purchase decisions. Knowing if a car you about to buy can or can't do something will influence a decision more than how more or less frequently someone can predict that need in the future. Going back to the RV toeing example, knowing they will need to rent a truck every time they want to toe their RV somewhere is going to make a car far less appealing as an RV owner.
But RV owners are doing it multiple times per summer, and dialing in a weight distribution hitch takes a couple hours. That would be a huge pain, and RV folks are right to not go EV unless they mainly stay close.
That's completely different from someone who is a once-per-year road tripperz
Most people rarely do.
I just spent 8 hours driving yesterday (4 hours each way) and took my Rivian instead of my Land Rover. Both very comfortable road trip vehicles. 3 20 minute charging stops. It’s a non issue.
Correct. For people who road trip a lot and in a lot of more unpopulated areas, EVs suck.
They also suck at driving more than let’s say 150 miles while towing.
Depends on how much you value your time. In fact, the time spent stopping at gas stations adds up during the year as well. If you fill your car for five minutes every two weeks, that’s over two hours per year spent doing something you don’t need to do with an EV. If your twice yearly road trip requires a 25 minute charge stop each way to go 250 miles out and 250 miles back, you are still winning.
Plugging in my Mach-e is roughly a 3 second thing. And you don’t actually need to do it daily if you want, could easily be once a week. The big thing is that you never have to actually delay yourself by intentionally stopping at a gas station.
But if you did do it every day, that’s what, 36 - 40 minutes per year? Still winning over ICE.
Probably depends where you live and your lifestyle. In the mountain west it is extremely common for people to drive hundreds of miles from home to go hiking or skiiing in the winter.
My favorite mountain biking spot is about 95 miles from home each way, I make that drive basically every weekend in the summer. Granted in the summer, the range hit is not as bad in warm temps.
Whats the ulterior motive behind the powers that operate in the shadows to force everyone into a EV?
Couldn't possibly be more control right? Right? Cause if it was truly about saving the precious environment we'd allow China to come in with cheap EVs or we wouldn't focus on making a damn profit off them in the first place.
No. Your not dodging the rest of what I said to push more nonsense EV propaganda.
Once more if the powers that be truly gave a flying f*** then EVs would be free or let China come in do their thing. But that's not the true goal of EV conversion so it wont happen, end of story.
I'm done talking to you, your and your academia kind always fall back to the feigning ignorance questions when cornered so sick of the cowardly behavior, eventually you and your group wont be able to pull that shit off and y'all with have to face the people and the music.
> Couldn't possibly be more control right? Right?
Which scenario lets "them" "control" you more-- a vehicle you can charge yourself using the sun for free, or a vehicle that's fully subject to the whims of a cartel of hostile nations which can choose how much of a non-renewable substance they extract and sell to you (and at what price)?
EVs are amazing if you're regularly driving only 75% of the listed range so you never suffer range anxiety. So for a vehicle with a 300 mile range, you could easily make 200 mile trips, assuming you had a charger on the other end.
I’m curious why more hybrids haven’t been built similar to diesel electric trains, where solely the electric motors power the car and the engine just provides electricity. IIRC this is how the Chevy Volt works, but I haven’t seen anything else scaled up for more power. Seems like especially with motors becoming smaller and more powerful and even being implemented in quad setups (1 at each wheel) it creates more space and weight allowance for more powerful generators.
A generator engine can run at optimum efficiency longer, it’s less wear and tear, probably fewer emissions (not sure tbh), and if the electric motors can still get you 0-60 in 6 seconds or less while the generator provides an extended range of 300-500 miles… <shrug> seems like it’d work.
This is how Hondas hybrid system works basically. Although it does have a physical direct connection for highways, other than that it goes through the battery exclusively. Toyota hybrid is a planetary gear set so you can choose to have power go straight to the wheels or into the battery. Basically it’s more efficient to use mechanical gears when holding steady speed on the highway.
> I’m curious why more hybrids haven’t been built similar to diesel electric trains
Locomotive design took this approach because it allows them to easily stack locomotives and run them as one single unit.
Because mechanical linkage is more efficient at highway speeds. That's why most series hybrids (Volt, new Honda hybrids) still provide a mechanical overdrive gear for highway driving.
Nissan's e-power hybrid system is probably closest to what you describe, it's essentially a gas powered EV. The combustion engine only powers generators and inverters, no mechanical drive connection for highway use where ICE is most efficient. It's probably why its fuel economy isn't as good as Toyota's system.
Because we don’t pick stuff that’s based in reality. We set goals and make it all political. 7-15 years ago hybrids and natural gas vehicles would’ve been the better option while steadily funding and subsidizing electric vehicles to get them where they needed to be. But because natural gas and hybrid still require ICE they were punished for the most part.
Yes, but fuel is 2 orders of magnitude more energy dense than battery electric storage and refueling is quick and more widely available is less populated areas if you are say towing a boat to go fishing, or sleds up to powder.
I have a builder friend with a F150 lightning. He loves it for towing because he's towing locally. Pulls his excavator, boat, equipment trailer just great.
So first of all, yes, you're right. But...I actually have a cottage on the ocean and a boat. It's about a 300 mile trip, the boat weighs about 7000 pounds.
I currently tow with a Grand Cherokee. It's getting a bit long in the tooth, so I do think about what I'd replace it with. If I had a reasonable range EV truck (Silverado or Lightning extended battery) how it would it go for me? Towing to my local lake wouldn't be an issue, that's about 20 miles each way.
When I do the long tow, let's say I have to stop twice each way for an hour each time. Basically works out to four extra hours a year. I go once a year with the boat for several weeks.
So I'd have to weight that inconvenience against the very large amount of money I'd save driving the electric truck the rest of the year, not even counting the quiet, power, smoothness and the convenience of charging at home.
So it certainly won't work for everyone. If you tow hundreds of miles every weekend, sure. But I think there's a lot of nuance once you start thinking about it.
I don't own an EV, and I generally think hybrids or ICE vehicles work better for most people. EV's work for some, but they are a minority.
If you don't want an EV for 1 trip a year...but you want one otherwise? You could just rent a truck for that 1 trip a year. Also, getting out of that Jeep would also be a godsend ;-)
The issue with a rental is that it wouldn't just be for the trip, it would be for the three-four weeks I'm there.
Reddit has this hate for all things Stellantis, but I like my Jeep. It's comfortable, rides well, has good power and tows great. I'm just about at 100k miles and haven't had a serious problem in the years I've owned it.
I had to search to find something that was not ginormous and could tow. Probably my biggest problem with an EV truck is just how big they are. A Rivian maybe would be a better choice than a Lightning or Silverado EV. If I could afford one.
> When I do the long tow, let's say I have to stop twice each way for an hour each time. Basically works out to four extra hours a year.
With a Silverado, you can reasonably expect over 200 miles towing. So you'd have to stop once, and probably for about 20 minutes to get the last 100 miles or so. Sounds like it would be a great choice for you.
Robert Dunn from Aging Wheels did a video last week about towing a car halfway across the country in his Chevy Silverado EV.
Although there were some glitches with charging, it all went pretty well. He said that apart from charging, EVs are superior towing vehicles due to their massive amounts of torque and regenerative braking, especially if you're towing something heavy on roads where there are big changes in elevation.
He said that he could easily cruise at traffic speed even going uphill and going downhill the regen eliminated any worry about smoking his brakes.
> He said that apart from charging, EVs are superior towing vehicles due to their massive amounts of torque and regenerative braking, especially if you're towing something heavy on roads where there are big changes in elevation.
Diesel trucks are good for this as well.
For towing long distances. For towing in-town? Different deal.
But I don't know a single person who thinks EVs are better than diesel trucks for towing. Do you?
I am replying to the context you are quoting that EV's are superior for towing. Modern diesels have just as much torque as EV trucks. A new L5P truck has a couple hundred more foot pounds of torque than a top trim Silverado EV. Close range, long range, any range, the diesel trucks are superior for towing.
He wasn't. But he said that the EV truck is the superior towing vehicle. I am the one saying that they are not the superior towing vehicle; diesel trucks are. Do you know what the word superior means?
I do, but I'm not sure you do. Saying one thing is "superior" is a comparison to some other thing, not all other things. "Superior" does not mean "the best out of all available options."
If you look up the definition of the word superior, in this contex, it literally means "adjective / 1. higher in rank, status, or quality."
> Obviously he wasn't saying EV trucks are better at towing than HD diesel trucks.
When someone says something is superior, this is quite literally what they mean. lol
>If you look up the definition of the word superior, in this contex, it literally means "adjective / 1. higher in rank, status, or quality."
Yes, higher, not highest. "Higher" is a comparison between two things. "Highest" is a comparison between three or more things.
So, no, "superior" does not mean "better than every other option."
>When someone says something is superior, this is quite literally what they mean. lol
You're laughing out loud, but you're the one who doesn't understand the word.
You just don't understand the context that the word was used in.
When you use an adjective like superior with a qualifier, like "superior to gasoline powered trucks", then you're right. When you use the word without a qualifier, as in "this truck is superior", then you are now insinuating that it is actually the "highest", making my notion true.
Basic linguistics, man. But you've spent this entire comment thread trying to dance around my notion being correct.
No, you're the one missing context. He obviously wasn't comparing it to a completely different class of vehicle. He was comparing it to the gas version of the EV truck he was driving. Similarly, he wasn't comparing it to a Freightliner, either.
>When you use the word without a qualifier, as in "this truck is superior", then you are now insinuating that it is actually the "highest", making my notion true.
"Superior" never means that. You even posted a definition showing it doesn't mean that.
You're wrong. "Higher" means a comparison between two things, not all things.
The context you used the quote in does not explicitly mention a comparison to gas trucks. If you had quoted it as "superior to gas trucks", I wouldn't have even commented.
You can't just make up new rules of grammar to try and fit your usage.
When you use that word without a qualifier you are implying all other things. Anyone who understands proper grammar will agree to this. There is nothing anywhere that implies it's usage as a comparison between only two things, especially when you don't mention those other two things.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/superior
> Superior comes from the Latin word meaning above and it literally means something that is above others in quality or status.
>You can't just make up new rules of grammar to try and fit your usage.
When you use that word without a qualifier you are implying all other things.
No, you are the one making up rules here. You're the one who quoted the actual definition, which used the word "higher," not "highest." Superior is, by definition, a comparison between two things. Sometimes it can be two specific things, or it can be one thing and a general average of the other options, but the word does not ever mean "the best out of a multitude of other options."
>Anyone who understands proper grammar will agree to this
This has absolutely nothing to do with grammar. The definition of a word is not a grammatical issue.
It's funny that you posted a definition that disproves your point and now you want to act like it didn't happen.
The regenerative braking is something I'd not considered, which makes a lot of sense. Especially with how you tend to see runaway truck ramps on mountain passes; basically not possible with regen, I would think.
With electric motors the torque is inversely proportional to rpm. So in theory they are great for towing, but the range goes close to 0.
But a hybrid would be great for towing, it is a shame that pickup owners are so against them.
> Robert Dunn from Aging Wheels did a video last week about towing a car halfway across the country in his Chevy Silverado EV.
That guy sure has to poop a lot.
Also if you want to buy the car new, evs lose way more in value than ice. Also considering a car can live like 30 years ending it's life in some poor African country I honestly doubt evs will turn out as ecological as people make them out to be. I'd say right now either hev or phev is best
The value argument is mostly rooted in the tax credit. It tanked used prices. Now that it is gone, I expect it to return to normal depreciation. Most 100,000 mile EVs are more reliable than ICE cars, people just don’t know it or have been feed propaganda.
Until that battery dies and now those old EV owners are facing a $20k bill to get the battery replaced. The entire value of an EV depends on how long the battery pack lasts, because when that goes (they all will eventually) it totals the car.
Statistically speaking, the battery dying is actually really rare even at high mileage. The cost of repair is also not very different from an engine replacement on German sedans
Can you point out some research that states it caps at around that number? Because I don't see why would it cap at that. And some people here state you could lose like half the range in cold winter moths so even 20-30% battery degradation would make the car undrivable outside the city. Just because some people drive 50km max in one day doesn't mean ev are the holy grail and we should all get one.
https://insideevs.com/news/748501/ev-degradation-study-rsev/
There’s piles of studies showing EV cars’ batteries generally outlast gas engines.
More importantly, nobody is forcing anybody here in the US to get an EV, it’s all fake persecution drama where people play the victim of some big imaginary villain. If you don’t want an EV, that is perfectly fine! But nobody needs to make up imaginary problems with them to make a point. You can say you just rather gas or don’t fully trust them yet.
I'm actually in Europe and not in the US and we have the coldest winter in like 20 years. Suddenly evs are not so fun. I'm in the process of installing a charger in my parking space for a phev and I already know getting most of the population on evs is not going to happen anytime soon because it's really not that simple and the public infrastructure just isn't there yet.
Modern EV's just haven't been around long enough for us to really determine that yet. Time is also an important factor in battery life, not just mileage. 13 years is still new enough that we can't make any judgement on long term battery reliability yet.
Most ev’s are fantastic regional cars and if you don’t mind your long trips taking just a little bit longer they are fantastic in every way.
They are way more than commuter cars.
I took my Mom's Mach E on a small 300 mile road trip when I visited her over the holidays. It wasn't even cheaper than gas. Electrify America was $0.70 a Kwh and Tesla was about $0.55. Destination charging was better at $0.15 overnight. I spent closet to $70 dollars on charging.
Often preconditioning the battery in cold weather can help with charge speeds, but I don’t think every car does this well. If I were constantly road tripping I probably wouldn’t get an EV, but for the few times a year I do, the extra cost and time are mitigated by the hour and $100+ I save each month charging at home the rest of the year. It truly does come down to being able to charge at home IMO.
I read about preconditioning. Unfortunately, Ford makes you pay for their connected services for access to preconditioning in the built-in navigation. Preconditioning will work without the subscription if you use Android Auto. However, it does not work with Carplay. Since we all had iPhones and didn't want to play the subscription game with Ford, we went without it.
Maybe our attempts to charge at Electrify America effectively preconditioned the battery so that by the time we got to Tesla, it was faster. Dunno.
> Preconditioning will work without the subscription if you use Android Auto. However, it does not work with Carplay.
This is so fucking stupid. And Ford wonders why their buyers are looking elsewhere.
Yeah it’s not always a great experience. I’d wager that yes, your battery got some heat into it over time by the time you got to Tesla. While Tesla stations tend to be more plentiful and accessible, typically they have lower max charge speeds than EA’s 350kW. But as you saw that makes less of a difference in winter.
That’s quite a defeatist view. I have no issues doing long commutes in my EV, even in winter.
Yes, it consumes more energy than it does in summer, but at worst it’s adding 30 minutes to an 8 hour drive.
EV’s are still a space where you need to buy carefully for something that fits your needs, but when you do so it’s fantastic.
The time I lose on road trips I get back in every day life, and then some.
And I only spent $50 on fuel in January. That’s money I’ve instead invested in having a better car.
> That’s quite a defeatist view. I have no issues doing long commutes in my EV, even in winter.
Some people have no issue with their EV's now, but adoption rate is still around 10% so there are not that many EV's on the road competing for what there is of the charging infrastructure right now.
Imagine if 90% of the other cars on the road with you were also EV's, and now these cars were also competing with you for charging bays with our current infrastructure. You'd be waiting many hours at the truck stop just to get a stall.
The US is behind on almost any metric so of course it will be worse there. The upside is the rest of the world showed years ago that building a charger network is more than feasible even in less densely populated countries like Norway/Sweden/Finland. Except for Norway also not as rich as the US so it's not a matter of resources.
In reality most EV drivers have no real issues with range and most cars aren't road tripped often enough for charging on the way to be an issue. Most of my friends with EVs never fast charge because it's quite rare for them to go that far. The longer trips are mostly handled by charging where you have your meeting/kids' ball game/overnight stay/lunch. Every single time that I've gone far enough to need a charge on the way I've done it while stopping for food anyway.
> Can we all just collectively agree that EVs are superior if you have a reliable charger and you don’t plan on driving more than 100 miles away from that charger.
Not if you like engines or manual transmissions.
> Can we all just collectively agree that EVs are superior if you have a reliable charger and you don’t plan on driving more than 100 miles away from that charger.
No, because it's [wrong](https://imgur.com/a/everywhere-ive-driven-electric-car-9WdLwX6).
And where is the population congested? You can't use the whole size of the country as an argument when the majority of them probably stay within the Urban centers and don't make cross country drives at the rate Americans do.
Not sure I see your point. Are you saying you want to drive coast to coast, because without refueling I can even do that in my 3500hd Silverado with extra large fuel tank. I literally take a stop for 10-15 minutes every 3 hours anyway when doing that.
Most of my trips are however within 2-3 hours from home, and a EV can easily do that.
The problem in the US is lack of support for EVs, and not the range or cold weather other whatever.
For now, because of this lack of support, I’m driving a diesel instead.
Selling oil to subsidize EV sales and grid upgrades is basically cheating when your population is 5.5 million. Your entire country has HALF of the population of LA County, and has more oil reserves than California by orders of magnitude. There isn't really a comparison to make.
To be super clear, that is roughly 95% of the entire new car market. Less than 1% of all instances of people driving a car in the US is greater than 50 miles.
If your only goal is getting from place A to B.
If you take into account *how pleasantly* you get from place A to B, then EV instantly wins 10/10. No noise, no rattling, no gear shifts, no ‘auto-stop-and-go’ bullshit, no smell of gasoline in your cabin, AC at will without having to worry about your exhaust, etc etc.
Oh, considering the range of current gen EV’s, it’s more like ’driving 300 miles away from that charger’ these days. Welcome to 2026!
> No noise, no rattling, no gear shifts, no ‘auto-stop-and-go’ bullshit, no smell of gasoline in your cabin, AC at will without having to worry about your exhaust, etc etc.
Some car enthusiasts like that stuff. lol. Well, apart from stop and go (nobody likes that).
What you just described fits the needs of WAY more people than most are willing to admit. I watch my neighbors drive to work 20 minutes down the road in their diesel Ram truck and never ever use it the way it was intended. It's time people bought the car they need than the one they think will give them street cred (it doesn't)
I won't buy one because I am in a hurricane evacuation zone and would be concerned that there wouldn't be any power for me to get out of danger. And that when I returned, power could be out for extended periods.
This is by far the single dumbest reason on earth for three reasons:
1. Gas stations need electricity to pump gas.
2. You start with a mostly full or entirely full battery so unless the power is also out 150 miles away, you are fine.
3. EVs with V2L (like the Ioniq 5 or F150 Lightning) can act as a backup battery for days on end for a house. For this reason they are the best choice for a hurricane zone as they are the answer to the very thing you are worried about.
> Gas stations need electricity to pump gas.
Luckily jerry cans exist and during an evacuation it is very easy to provide emergency gas supplies to stranded motorists. Charging EVs that are out of battery is significantly more complicated.
Okay. If we're ever both stuck in an evacuation, you enjoy waiting for someone to tow in a generator with a specialized charging adapter that'll give you 100 miles of range in 4 hours while I just get some randoms jerry can that takes 5 minutes to fill into the car and get going. Your choice.
Lmao, these EV guys will try and gaslight over anything. I survived for 2 weeks during hurricane Ike evacuation in my 1974 dodge dart with three 5 gallon gas cans in the trunk.
Power is often the first thing to come back in emergencies, and gas station need power as well. During prolonged outages your EV becomes a giant mobile battery bank that can power your house for days.
At your home or the entire town? How were gas stations pumping without power? Usually commercial power is always restored first and residential power later
You can totally do >100mi from home if you spend a few minutes planning how you'll charge. I've been on a few road trips in an Ioniq 5, never had a real problem.
Debatable. You loose the maintenance savings which in EVs is a pretty good chunk of change. Add in the PHEV EV motor just does not provide near the amount of go power. Plus you need the ice for heat and ac. It
My PHEV uses both powertrains when it wants to go, and they combine to nearly 500hp and are good enough to move a 5500lb SUV to 60 in 3.9 seconds, so I think you may need to do more research on PHEVs and their “amount of go power.”
My PHEV doesn't require the ICE for air conditioning, but it does for the heat. Some have heat pumps that will let you use heat without the combustion engine but mine sadly does not.
You're lugging around an useless ICE engine when driving in EV mode, and a useless heavy battery pack and electric motor when driving long distances (the engine alone isn't enough to charge a PHEV battery pack).
It's kind of the worst of both worlds in a sense - you get the downsides of both systems, but not the upsides (worse fuel economy than a conventional ICE on longer drives, more complexity and less range than a BEV in EV mode).
Sure. Now how much more are you paying to get a PHEV compared to a gas or hybrid powertrain? How much more complexity does it have that you're responsible for outside of warranty?
Part of the appeal of electric cars are the lack of maintenance. With PHEV’s, you are maintaining two powertrains. I’d rather just have an EV daily driver and an old truck/minivan for long trips or doing truck things. But, I really haven’t had problems road tripping in an EV. It takes some planning. My ID4 only has a 255 mile range, but for a 8hr, 500 mile drive, I only have to stop twice for 20-30 minutes per stop. It’s not that bad. If you’re trying to go 750miles in a day, then that sucks. But at that point I’m flying or I’m renting a vehicle.
If you don't have a reliable charger, it's the worst of both worlds. A big battery (20-25 kwh are becoming standard) that doesn't offer you anything that a far smaller one in a regular hybrid would.
You just described tens of millions of cars that could easily go EV.
There is still a LOT of low hanging fruit that can be converted without giving up just because every use case doesn’t fit EV profile.
Even if that scenario only applies to 90% of your trips for those 90% it will be so much better that it outweighs pretty much any scenario for the 10%.
Most people will have no problem traveling hundreds of miles. My wife solo'd from Chicago to Pittsburgh and back with zero issues.
The only time it can get hairy is if you want to tow or travel to really rural areas like the Minnesota boundary waters or something.
Depends on the car, some get small range like my Bolt, a Silverado EV goes like 400 miles though. EV's are amazing daily drivers or road trippers if you have one with fast charging speeds like a Tesla or Lucid
I love having an EV because I can charge for around $0.04/mile at home and I can charge for free at work. I can schedule my climate control to preheat/cool or do it on demand. I never have to stop for gas or change oil. It’s so much more convenient for daily driving than a gas car.
Now, between two and five times per year, I’ll travel from Philly to DC or NY and I’ll maybe have to plan around charging while I’m there or on my way home. Luckily, there’s usually some level 2 options that are still cheaper than gas and located near where I’m staying. I think I’ve level 3 charged maybe twice.
are we still doing this? stoking the flames of EV hate over some situations that apply to half the country 5 days a year where they *still* had 200+ miles of range at -24F for some clicks?
Yeah honestly those cold range tests feel a bit overblown when most people here don’t see those temps for more than a few days a year. Still interesting but not a big deal in everyday life.
Yeah honestly those cold range tests feel a bit overblown when most people here don’t see those temps for more than a few days a year. Still interesting but not a big deal in everyday life.
No, the population of Canada is ~10-15% that of the USA.
My original point was that Montana is so small as to be an irrelevance with respect to the EV discussion.
And you still completely missed the point...Montana, Idaho, Minnesota, Michigan, Maine, North Dakota, Nebraska, the entire country of Canada all have brutal winters that last many months. To all of those people, the negatives of owning an EV is quite relevant.
Montana was simply an example of living in an area that has 4+ months of very cold weather every year.
nobody is telling montana people to buy an EV. EVs are perfect for city living and people who live in metro-areas who travel commute to work, home, and errands.
it's pretty obviously people who plan road trips or live in flyover states aren't the target of EVs
Many of those places are too sparsely populated and geographically enormous for EVs to make any sense. Maybe when solid state batteries arrive. Why bring it up?, it’s obviously the wrong place to have an EV.
Also, a significant portion of the Canadian population either live in the Pacific Northwest, a fairly temperate climate, or in a dense city (Toronto, Ottawa, Quebec City, etc.) which are entirely appropriate for an EV.
I don’t think anyone would say Montana is a great place for an EV, and the low population makes that a low priority in terms of global warming mitigation.
I mean, Minnesota just had those types damn near every night the last 2 weeks, and none of my cars had trouble.
And it's not like they are brand new or have new batteries. One is a 6 year old OEM battery, and the other one is a decade old car and the battery has only been replace once.
Then again, I don't really see -40% range being a huge problem for EVs. Nobody is going "well it's the coldest day of the year, time to take a 7 hour road trip."
Shit man I decided to start my motorcycle here in Minnesota last week and even with a cold ass battery and cold as shit fuel it still started when it was fucking freezing.
Honestly don't even know where these dumb ass "HURR DURR ICE CARS CAN'T START DURING THE COLD"" bullshiters come from.
Meanwhile my buddy literally can't even haul anything up to his cabin with his Lightning this time of the year becuese the only charging station on his way is one of those shitty ass Zef Energy ones that might work 2% of the time. Otherwise he's shit out of luck.
Honestly, I think the people who act like cars are all going to fail or have dead batteries on a cold winter day are the people who don't understand or maintain their car. Sure, an abused, neglected vehicle is always more likely to have a problem when conditions are harsh.
Same way Honda and Toyota got amazing reputations for reliability after the 90s. They just made cars that could survive abuse and neglect, not that were magically higher quality.
I was actually in the market for a Lightning to tow my trailers, but when I found out from real owners that you only get about 90 miles of range towing, that idea was dead in the water. Ended up with a 2.7L F-150 that gets 400 miles towing. The Lightning would be be awesome for guys who just need to get their boat to a nearby lake every weekend or something, but cross-county or hours away would be annoying AF.
At anything below -20C a LOT of ICE cars will have trouble starting due to the battery crapping out or just not feeling for it for some other reason. It's super common, ask any mechanic or try to get roadside service to come and boost your car and they'll tell you they're busy right now.
They also feel like they're dying when starting up at that temp and take forever to heat up. I don't miss my diesel at all even though it had a Webasto that still took forever to get warm and you could feel the cancer around it.
Totally disagree. That's -4°F. That's 20+ mornings each winter here, and my company maybe has 1 out of 100 people who calls in because they had car trouble on those mornings.
> I mean, Minnesota just had those types damn near every night the last 2 weeks, and none of my cars had trouble.
meanwhile I work at an MN dealer and we've sold through batteries by the pallet this past ~month
They won’t. As long as you have a healthy battery, ICE will start up every time. A block heater just makes it quicker to get you warmed up and easier to start. A dead battery isn’t going to start anything even if plugged in.
Meanwhile my EV is nice and toasty in my cold closed garage when I get in and has basically a full charge. I’m admittedly the best use case but still it’s awesome.
It would've been relevant if you shared a ski trip scenario to relate to what OP was talking about, but it's just some random factoid that doesn't change regardless if you have an EV or PHEV.... everybody knows a plug in vehicle in a garage will be ready to go and full, it's been beat to death as a positive of ownership.
I own an EV, I do not think this has stoked any EV hate. It’s independent testing. Extreme cold weather range should be a standard testing metric (for all cars, really). The general car buying public does not do nearly enough research when buying cars - I would assume many of them are frustrated when their EV’s lose range or get considerably worse than advertised fuel economy in extreme cold.
> Extreme cold weather range should be a standard testing metric
And they outta clearly define what temperatures the cabin is kept at when testing in the cold.
Gonna be a very different result riding around with the heat off and it blasting on hot.
And not only that, they've been doing this for 11 years, according to the article. It isn't like this came out of nowhere. And it is relevant to a fairly large number of people too. Personally I would like to see both extreme cold and hot weather testing for pretty much all cars both to see how their range performs but also how their climate control systems handles the heat or lack thereof. Plenty of instances of cars that come with weak ac systems regardless of what makes the thing move.
The above test did pique my interest though since the temperature is pretty much what I've been experiencing this winter and lately I have a bit of a passing interest in the Lucid air. From what I could get translated from the site, their test route is a little on the low speed side and ultimately the range is still a little below my target but it is in the area that I could make work if need be.
Saying "It Didn’t Go Well" in the headline is clearly click bait and and attempt to spread the article by that.
The study itself is great and the results were _good_ so why make shit up in the headline? If you can go over 300km in *-31C* with all but the worst EVs then that's a great result.
This type of cold is not super common even if it happens to be quite cold in many places right now. We had -22 today and our EVs are doing great. Much better than any ICE I had because they actually warm up and don't feel like they're struggling.
big chunk of people are extremely pro-EV and likely get upset over articles like this. perhaps they think everyone lives in sunny CA where "deep freeze" means 50F 😅
Yea it’s odd especially after over a hundred million Americans have been dealing with extreme cold lmao. It’s been so bad that my colleagues in Germany were asking me about it.
For sure just someone that will get mad at any report that is critical of EVs.
But they warm up incredibly quickly and are ready to go immediately. No need to worry about issues starting or the cabin being cold for a long time when starting the drive, and no need to idle a polluting engine to get it warmed up.
Let’s not pretend like there isn’t a group of people in the complete opposite Camp that cheer on every single EV fire or story of a car running out of range…
Idiots on both sides of the extremes
absolutely! i think the tech is plenty good enough for a daily w/charging at home, it's just annoying that this admin killed the tax rebates. i'm in no hurry to switch until i can score a sweet deal somehow.
Used EVs are still a great deal. People are nervous about range so secondhand prices are super cheap. Low values make sense for Leafs (higher than normal battery degradation) and Bolts (slow charging, so not great for road trips) but a ton of really good EVs can be had for not much money used
Bolts are awesome, I think the discontinuation may have something to do with the Equinox EV coming out, they're apparently good cars and incredibly popular, so GM may not think it's worth it to keep making the Bolt when they're selling a ton of the equinox
Well its only 1 side continually trying to force the other to be them.... so naturally they push back and defend.
Just like pro EV will twist and spin and be biased for EVs glossing past the negatives
Do you need to go somewhere 250 miles away in a once a decade -25 cold blast? And the net sum of that is that you'll need to stop at a charger on the way?
> Do you need to go somewhere 250 miles away in a once a decade -25 cold blast?
Once in a decade? That was the second time this winter.
> Wheres the article on dead 12v batteries? Nah, those wouldnt get clicks.
Both my vehicles started just fine. Unless you're driving a 20 year old ICE vehicle, or one that hasn't been maintained, you're probably fine.
> Facts should be a problem, but a lot of people cant process them rationally.
Facts are things that don't just affect you. Just because you don't get cold weather doesn't mean this is important to other people.
The vast majority of people absolutely do not drive 250 miles a day, not even close. Assuming you do that for work, 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, you're doing 60,000 miles per year. The average is something like 13-14,000 miles. So we know most people aren't doing anywhere near that and would be perfectly fine with any of the vehicles tested even in these extreme conditions.
Yup, but usually the anti EV people love to find excuses to rule them out. Can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to who say “an EV wouldn’t work for me because I go on a 300 mile road trip once a year”.
Dude, my parents got their EV6 in late 2024 and put 25k on it already. They are the epitome of people who go on trips and shit and they love the car and are doing just fine.
I’ve learned some people just really hate EVs and will find any way to dog on them or rule them out. They will find the stupidest excuses for every little thing.
Oh and also, me and my family live in one of the places that just got the -40 wind chill and we’ve been just fine. Our cars got warm quicker than any ICE and haven’t had even a slight struggle starting. The range hit sucks, sure, but it’s more seeing the numbers that sucks rather than any actual inconvenience or anxiety. We charge at home nightly and haven’t had any issues getting anywhere we needed even at 80%.
Honestly, EVs are a superior winter experience in every way besides range - hut they don’t want to admit that.
Amen. It’s a really good point you bring up about heating up quicker too. ICE you’re typically waiting for the engine to warm up to provide cabin heating, but that’s not the case for an EV. You can also precondition so the car is at your desired temperature before you get it in. There’s just so many nice quality of life features in EVs that I think a lot of people don’t understand.
Sure you might lose a chunk of range, but they still have plenty of range and you can get into a nice warm car that’s already defrosted its windows.
stars are really aligning, cold blast, driving between 250-350 miles in a trip to avoid 1 charge.
Some people are desperate to find reasons to shit on EVs.
The CLA they tested had a 700 km WLTP range while the highest possible range of the CLA is almost 800 km (depending on engine and tire choice). Considering that difference of 100 km WLTP and roughly half the range being lost due to the cold, you could get 470 km in an entry level car at -30 Celsius. I think that is pretty huge tbh.
Yeah that sounds about right, losing half the range in that cold is brutal but if you put it like that 470 km isn't too shabby considering. Wonder how that translates once you add heater and other electrical loads though.
That's nearly 300 miles which is above average range for most EVs sold here (US). Considering that's in -30C which even places that get really cold don't see frequently, or for very long, that's pretty damn good.
Better than my friends ID.4 which drops about half it's range in the cold.
As I recall, the battery charge remains the same, it just discharges most quickly.
Like if the battery is 50kWh, it doesn't become 25kWh, the 50kWh just discharges more quickly.
A coworker drives an e-Golf and he can barely drive 70 km in our mild German winters. The progress in range and winter range have been truly impressive. This car had like 180 km WLTP, no temperature controlled battery and no heat pump. Barely 10 years ago that was basically state of the art.
Thr eGolf was outdated on release. There is a reason they quickly facelifted it with 50% larger battery and a heatpump. My eGolf gets 180 practical range in winter.
With the CLA even at -24°F (-31°C) you can drive for 3 hours, fill up in 15 minutes and drive for another 3 hours. 6 hours of driving with a fifteen minute stop, 9 hours with two 15 minute stops, as long as the journey finishes somewhere with a charger.
Under better conditions it’s more like 8 hours with a 15 minute stop or 12 hours with two 15 minute stops.
Yeah I’m so tired of everyone acting like $50k is cheap. Especially for a vehicle nobody wants to own out of warranty, fairly or not. And I’m sure the max range version isn’t $50k.
The max range version is the cheapest version, the 250+, the issue is that literally everything is optional on top of that lol
Like, dual zone climate, power trunk, quite a bit you'd expect standard for the money. & worse they're all "digital extras", the hardware is already in the car
now do the other 99% of the days in the year.
I use 20% of my battery to get to work and back.
I have a 100kw/h battery. It costs me 0.08c per kw/h to charge it.
basically spend 16c a day to drive to work and back. lets make it 30c to account for losses.
that's where your real savings are.
You can indeed save quite a bit, as long as electricity prices are cheap like in your case.
In Munich, public charging is around 0.50€/$0.60 for AC and 0.70€/$0.82.
In the case of charging a 100 kwh battery from 10%-100% while ignoring charging losses, we are looking at 44-62€/$52-74.
Charging on the Autobahn comes with a premium, expect at least 25% higher prices.
What car has 680 miles on a tank? That’s almost double what most cars get.
> 900km/690mi
You mean *560* miles. Don’t know if I can trust your math or your range claims…
My bad about the miles, the km are correct but i fucked up the conversion. My car is the one in my flair, which easily achieves such range. No need to believe me, look it up yourself. [The very same engine achieved 2831km](https://www.skoda-storyboard.com/en/skoda-world/rally-champion-fuel-efficiency-record-holder/) (I’ll let you do the conversion yourself) in a bigger Skoda Superb. It’s got a slightly larger fuel tank than mine, but still.
Okay, I didn’t consider diesel. But that’s because diesel has been rejected as concept. The only reason you’re even driving that car is because Volkswagen lied about how dirty the emissions are. Had it not been for that lie then they would not have even bothered to make it, regardless of the range.
So if you ignore environmental impact and just look at the numbers, you’re spending ~€80 to go roughly the same distance as an EV can go on €121. But that’s assuming you can’t charge at home and have to use a public L2 charger the night before. So really is €110 to go that distance.
So sure it’s a difference of €40 **BUT**, you’re in a significantly smaller vehicle, and you’re spewing toxic sludge out of the tailpipe.
I’m not sure I asked for someone to lecture me, let alone guilt trip me. I chose this car because it fits my needs, I can fix it by myself and it’s very cheap to run.
A car is a depreciating asset and it makes no financial sense for me to hand over 50k+ for a new EV that fits my parameters. Mind you, I only buy used and I never have or will finance any car. I either have the money for it or I don’t. I’d much rather invest it or spend it on my hobbies and stuff that enriches my life.
Get off your high horse and have a good day.
> I’m not sure I asked for someone to lecture me
When you go voluntarily engage in a conversation, you when to own what you say. You wanted to offer your two cents on the viability of EVs, and your assertions were problematic (as I pointed out).
Don’t be so sensitive. If you can’t handle getting splashed in the face, then don’t come into the pool with the rest of us.
It’s still 10€ per month in subscription fees. The savings potential isn’t that great. I also drive to Greece twice a year, once in winter and once in summer.
Less range during winter on a 1600km trip means more charging and I’ve done enough trips that I just want to be done with it asap. I only stop once for refuelling and maybe once for a powernap for 20 minutes.
During summer, there are always queues of 3-4 cars waiting to charger theirs in Serbia and N. Macedonia. You could leave the expressway to search for chargers, but that’s the last thing you’d want if it’s the middle of the night. Chargers outside of cities are located in dodgy, barely lit areas.
I would consider an EV as my next car, but I am not willing to spend 60k for 600+ km of range.
Most were in the range of upper 30s to low 40s as a percentage. I’m not sure how many replicate measurements they performed (probably just once), so i suspect the real answer is that most batteries lay in a space around that efficiency level in the cold, regardless of the manufacturer. Also, these journalists and editors need to learn to define acronyms on first use.
Cars also get hit in range from the cold due to the denser air.
In the summer my Honda gets 76+mpg. I’ve been getting 45-50mpg in the winter. Effectively a 200+ mile drop on a full tank.
Sure, gas cars don’t get affected to the same degree as EVs, but this isn’t a EV only deal.
I have owned an EV, currently own a hybrid and 2 ICE.
I also live in the rust belt, yes, the cold affected the range, but this also was the case for my gas cars.
the really outspoken people against EV's, or for them, clearly don't own them, or exclusively own them, respectively. Each has their pros/cons, and an EV is not suitable for all, nor all conditions
I agree with that, when Hertz wanted to make all their rental cars EV that was a stupid idea.
For long trips EV isn’t the answer, adding extra charge time is just wasting time.
Hybrid/gas/diesel make more sense when traveling or towing, especially towing for the insane EV range drop.
They’re not terrible for long trips.. just takes extra time. If I had the option, I’d pick ICE.
That being said, we’ve been EV-only since 2020 and used to take my old Model 3 Performance on long trips. It added a 20-30 minute stop every 2 hours or so, but that was happening anyway with my wife and kid.
I just switched to an Ioniq 5N that has less range than my M3P. That should be interesting on long trips. Fortunately we only do them a few times a year, so it’s a very minor inconvenience compared to all the benefits for day to day.
You say “truth hurts”. Now let’s talk about facts.
Your Honda isn’t indicative of ICE cars because it’s a hydrid. The drop in range is because the hybrid system (the EV part) isn’t as effective in cold temps.
The denser air isn’t enough to cause the drop in MPG you’re seeing. You’re also ignoring that in many US states, gas stations switch to a winter blend that has more ethanol (hence the stickers on pumps that say “may contain up to 10% ethanol”), and ethanol is less fuel efficient than 0% ethanol fuel.
And then there’s other variables in your findings that we can’t be certain you’re paying attention to. Cold temps lower tire PSI, which negatively affects MPG. Driving style has the biggest effects; whether it be self imposed or traffic related.
The biggest change for most people in the winter is they tend to idle their cars more to warm them up; myself included. That and the winter blend fuel is why my 26 year old pickup goes from 19 mpg average in the summer to 16 mpg in the winter… except on long trips where the mpg difference is imperceivable (and parasitic drag from AC compressor in the summer offsets the winter blend fuel).
According to your “hypothesis”, long trips in the winter I should be seeing below 15mpg (and even bigger drop percentage since my aero is way worse than yours) because of “dense air” instead of the 20+ I actually see in both winter and summer.
But please…. Don’t let facts stand in the way of your “truth”.
TL;DR- Your MPG dropped drastically in the winter because of winter blend fuel and your car’s hybrid battery doesn’t have as much capacity.
Except for the fact that the hybrid battery capacity isn’t as large a factor for this particular hybrid because the system it uses is not the same as other traditional hybrids.
It’s not a plug in hybrid, and the 2.3” electric motor is between the engine block and transmission. It can not use the electric motor only, it only uses it in tandem with the gas motor and only when the assist is needed (heavier acceleration) not to mention with IMA completely off you can drive the car on 100% gas.
I got my permit at 16 and license at 16. I drive 500+ miles a week and I had been doing so for years with several vehicles.
1998 Chevy S10 LS 5 speed
2007 Honda Accord SE 5 speed
2009 BMW 328i xdrive 6 speed
2000 Honda Insight 5 speed
I’ve had other vehicles as weekend cars, but as for my dailies I saw a decrease in MPG in the winter. With no tire changes.
Now I used to own a 2019 Tesla Model S Performance, and that also saw a range hit in the winter. It was at a greater decrease than my gas vehicles, but still, gas vehicles will see a decrease in mpg in the winter.
My only argument here is that gas will see a decrease in mpg in the winter. Not as severe as EVs, but to say there is no drop in mpg for gas is delusional.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s a plug in or not. The battery will still be affected, and likely more so since it’s a much smaller battery and have limited charge to be able to help. The hybrid system assists under acceleration; not just “heavier acceleration” because it’s for efficiency and not performance.
You don’t need to explain to me how the system works because I was ASE certified and worked in shops for years. Getting your license at 16 doesn’t mean much when you don’t say how long you’ve had it. Given that you’re listing vehicles, I’m apt to believe you’re still fairly “young”. For the record, I’ve had my license for over 3 decades; and also have motorcycle endorsement and Class A CDL. I also managed an OTR trucking company for a decade, where profit is directly tied to fuel mileage, and I dealt with weeks mileage trip sheets, fuel receipts, and IFTA taxes based on mileage (which are subsidized by fuel purchases).
I never said that ICE vehicles don’t lose range in the winter. I gave specific examples of why they lose range. You’re the one that stated your hybrid loses 1/3 the MPG in the winter (similar to the EVs in the article), which isn’t typical in non-hybrids, and then acted smug with “truth hurts” when you used inaccurate anecdotal data from your hybrid.
It’s obvious you don’t know how the hybrid system on the Insight works then.
You’re saying it assists under acceleration, as in all the time, that is not how this system works.
I do know how it works. It’s how many hybrid systems work. You underestimate how much it assists. It doesn’t need an EV only mode to drastically increase mileage.
I don’t have the time or patience to explain it to you like you’re 5
Ah yes…. Because the person that’s “had their license since 16” makes them more qualified to understand than someone that was ASE certified and worked on the cars for nearly 2 decades…. And a system similar to multiple other manufacturers…. Or how hybrid systems on most cars are for helping fuel mileage.
Yet for some reason, you portray the hybrid system on your econo car similar to that as to what’s found on sports cars like the Corvette; for “heavy acceleration”. And that cold weather affecting that system has minimal effect on MPG.
Sure bud…. It’s just your Insight that’s poor cold weather MPG isn’t caused by the hybrid system performance. Not the numerous others that have the same issue, and it’s been explain to them the cold weather affecting the hybrid system.
HEAVIER acceleration. (Nice reading comprehension) Under light throttle it won’t use the assist, it can vary the amount of assist, it uses the assist as little as possible if the car can move under its own power.
It’s an economy car, in fact it’s one of the most well designed economy cars out there. Every factor of this car is designed for fuel economy. The lightweight aluminum chassis, the 1.0L 3 cylinder engine with IMA is 124lbs. The transmission is just 91lbs.
It has low rolling resistance tires that Honda worked with Bridgestone to develop.
It had the lowest coefficient of drag of any production car at the time of 0.25cd.
The way this hybrid system works, is not the same as other modern hybrids, it doesn’t use electric as much as possible, it uses it in conjunction when needed. If the car can move or maintain speed under its own engine power then it won’t use assist. Now if you use heavier throttle application it will use more assist.
No, the assist is not strictly for performance, although the extra 13hp and 25lb-ft of torque do make quite a difference when you’re already making 67hp an 66lb-ft of torque.
I currently have the entire transmission disassembled on my table right now, and I’m rebuilding it with modified synchronizers so it doesn’t grind, which is a common issue along side the input shaft bearing.
I know my car and have driven my car much longer than you have, and I hypermile, I am constantly looking at my mpg, assist and regen. I have seen how the characteristics of this particular hybrid system works.
It is not the same.
While that's true, the hit on range is less annoying in a gas car. It costs more, but you can just keep filling it up. With an EV you've got to stop more often and wait around longer.
I drive an EV so this isn't me trying to roast them. But I wouldn't like to use it for a 1000 mile trip in the arctic.
more realistic trip people do all the time in winter: toronto to montreal, about 550km. need 3 full charges with some of those EVs listed. or a tank of gas
It’s not the same type of hybrid system that something like a Prius would use.
It’s a mild hybrid and doesn’t have EV only mode. The engine is always running when it’s moving, and if my heater is on (it always is in this cold) then it doesn’t even use start/stop.
The IMA battery does lose power and regen capability when cold BUT the car never relies on it for propulsion alone, since the cold reduces assist and reduces regen it acts more like a very efficient gas car.
Meanwhile with the Prius, the cold batteries force the engine to run much more often than normal which would see a larger mpg drop.
This car won’t have lean burn until fully warm, but for a 1.0L 3 cylinder its thermal mass is quite low so it doesn’t impact it as much.
Just checking the data on both of our cars, the hit for winter average versus summer average is about 12%. Definitely something you notice, especially with today’s small tanks.
Add in the extra fans and heaters running, and warming up the car while you clean it off, and my car has gone up 3l/100km. Pretty significant, but it’s something I’d expect from any vehicle in cold weather.
Look at who read the brochure. Lmao
“I know my car”…. I know cars. I was a certified mech for years. You think your hybrid system is different, but the same style is used on other vehicles. Hell, the Silverado Hybrid had a similar setup with the motor between the engine and teams nearly 2 decades ago.
If you hypermile, then why would you pick a veh that the hybrid system only works under “heavier” acceleration? It’d be no benefit. But if it does help MPG, then it’d still be affected by cold temps and show a negative affect in MPG. So which is it?
Taking an average of their findings, at -24*C, the cars reported a 36.04% loss of range. The data I can find shows ICE vehicle fuel economy anywhere from 20% up to 30% worse in similar temperatures.
I do think it's a bigger deal for EVs since you can "recharge" your ICE vehicle in 2 minutes. But yeah both types of vehicles will have a significant range reduction in extreme cold.
As usual I think the article title is made for engagement to start arguments about gas vs electric cars
According to [this list the vehicles with the fastest charging times are currently 30 minutes.](https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/fastest-charging-electric-cars?onepage)
And that's from the 10% to 80% range, so if you're going to use that number you also have to reduce your range by ANOTHER 30%. That charging time is also only at fast chargers, so best case scenario.
Its good they are getting faster though... hopefully those times can continue to improve.
“expect conventional gasoline vehicles to suffer a 10% to 20% fuel economy loss in city driving and a 15% to 33% loss on short trips.”
Ah, so you picked the highest numbers that focus on short city driving trips that also incudes things like extra idle time on start up (as stated in the document) and little time for the driveline to reach operating temps.
The majority of the test in the OP article was motorways/highways and 50mph (80 kph) 2 lane with minimal stop and go traffic. Stark difference.
That was at 20F/-6C which is COMPLETELY different than -31C which is cold as fuck. It's so cold that you won't be able to start a large portion of diesels and gas cars will struggle too. The fuel economy will definitely be on the worse end of that scale.
Starting has nothing to do with MPG figures.
Your own source quoted 10% decrease for CITY driving for trips longer than 4 miles. You say “drive really far”, but your source shows significant improvements over short (3-4 mile) trips. It doesn’t address highway or non-stop and go trips, which was the majority of the route (including the repeated 40mile runs down a 50mph 2 lane with very few stops.
So you picked a source that has a bigger temp variance, and only highlights city driving and short trips. The EV test was long trips, that included majority non-city driving.
It is absolutely true as someone who lives in a climate that gets these temperatures, as well as having read up on the science behind this.
The largest part of that is that air becomes over 20% denser at these temperatures compared to summer, (you can think of it in a similar way as a hot air balloon works by heating up the air, making it lighter) and this means an increase in air resistance of over 20% as a result.
On the highway air resistance makes up the overwhelming majority of drag, which means your fuel economy decreases by at least 20% as well.
No it doesn’t “decrease by 20% as well”. I managed an OTR trucking company for over a decade. A fleet of trucks and each traveled over 100k miles a year. Absolutely none of them saw close to a 20% decrease in MPG, even when they had increased idle time during the winter.
And that’s something which would absolutely be noticed because I literally had to enter and calculate all fuel purchases and exact miles every week, as well as submit IFTA taxes (taxes on every mile ran, which are partially paid for by fuel purchases). On top of that, would also have engine hours reported weekly as well, so not only did I have MPG reports, I also had miles per engine hour so I’d know if a driver had excessive idle time.
And it was OTR as in all lower 48 states, and would routinely send trucks north in the winter through the Dakotas and Montana.
Honestly I'd be surprised if it was more than 5% loss in MPG. I live in Minnesota and I've literally never noticed any difference in Fuel economy come Spring/Summer/Fall or Winter.
Like unless you are remote starting your car for an hour before hand the loss is practically non existant. Driving like a nutjob has a far greater impact.
I'm not talking about winter conditions though, I'm talking about driving at a consistent -30°C.
I absolutely believe that those trucks might only have lost 10% or something like that if it was just regular winter conditions. Nowhere in the US gets that cold more than a few days a year.
I'll share a graph of this for you to see, it only goes down to -20°C but you'll at least get the idea: https://imgur.com/a/wJpUDrk
When it comes to trucks the overwhelming amount of drag comes from air resistance and not rolling resistance (as you probably know, a fully-loaded box-trailer semi only loses ~10-20% fuel economy versus empty from what I've seen tested) it will follow this graph-line at least relatively closely.
But you’re effectively saying that air density percentage change is a direct 1-1 ratio with mpg (20% more dense = 20% loss in MPG), and that’s demonstrably false. If that were the case, cars would be more fuel efficient in Denver a mile above sea level than in the Midwest where the elevation is roughly 5000 ft lower; but that’s not what is observed.
Also, a 12’ tall 8’ wide 18 wheeler would see larger losses based on density if it did have that large of an effect, but again, that’s not the case.
For as “10-20% empty vs loaded” also isn’t accurate. The numbers are closer to 30-40% difference from what I’ve observed (all hauling the same make/model/option 53’ dry van).
Frankly, believing there’s a direct linear relation between air density from temperature and MPG is patently absurd. Hell, it ignores the fact that barometric pressure varies drastically naturally. When a low pressure front comes through and air pressure drops by 10%, people don’t magically see a 10% increase in fuel mileage. If that 10% decrease in air pressure actually created that much more resistance, racers would actively seek to attempt record runs in hotter air at higher elevations because it’d help top speed performance…. But the opposite is true.
Should have tested range extenders and hybrids instead. BEVs are short ranged commuter appliances and that's only if you have an easy charging option at home too, and your electricity costs aren't skyrocketing in your area or you have solar panels which is another scam in itself how they're sold to homeowners.
"instead"? Nobody buys range extenders or hybrids anymore in this country. EVs are the only thing relevant.
BEVs are NOT just short range commuters. They're absolutely used for huge roadtrips all the time because of how far they go and how fast they charge today.
I still don't understand how this is so bad. Couldn't they use the battery cooling loop to keep the battery at an optimal temperature?
Also does an equivalent to an engine block heater exist for the battery? You are already plugging them in overnight to charge so it would make sense.
I bought a broken 2001 Insight for $250 and fixed it with some gaskets, coils, and brake cleaner, probably $35 all in, and it was a really fun manual that got 88mpg. I never filled the gas tank fully, because almost 1,000 miles per fillup would be a long time to store gas. What EV is similar to this? These figures wouldn't change, even at 10 degrees below zero.
What year can I expect EVs to be almost as good as this ultra cheap car designed in the 1990s was? 2050? 2150?
They are fundamentally different technologies, expecting one to function just like the other simply doesn't make sense. 88mpg is abysmal energy use by EV standards, that's like full size EV pickup numbers
The energy required to make an EV battery for a full-size pickup is monumental. That’s the advantage of hybrid—minimal battery is required to achieve ~20+% reduction in consumption.
It takes about 60% more energy to make an electric vehicle vs a gas vehicle (assuming that you're making the battery in a particularly energy-intensive way), but that added energy cost is only about 10% the amount that the combustion car will use in its lifespan
Fuel/Battery isn't the only consideration. Find me a EV pickup for less than $300 including maintenance that can be super reliable for 500k+ miles. Ideally one made in 1999, but cheating with a newer example is also okay.
My Tesla loses range just being parked in the cold. Gas doesn’t evaporate. I am lucky I have a car charger at home, that is until we got a third car and my Tesla gets the boot for my wife’s daily commute
No. I mean it’s not much but it’s definitely a thing. It’s happening to yours too, you just may not notice or you charge often enough that it doesn’t matter.
At that temperature your ICE car is going to have issues as well. At the very least you're going to need an engine block heater unless you have a heated garage.
was -25 to -30 for about a week. Both vehicles started with no issue. If you have a relatively newish car that's been maintained there's no need for a block heater at these temps.
You don't even need a block heater, just a decent battery and synthetic oil (which most new cars have anyways).
It's been between -25c and -31c the past couple weeks here and I haven't had any issues starting my Audi (which doesn't have a block heater) in our unheated garage, even after sitting a few days.
I think we plugged in my wife's Pilot once or twice during that span.
It used to be you always had to plug your car in when it was below -20c but batteries and synthetic oil have come along way.
So, yet another situation 95% percent of people will never have to worry about as an excuses to EV bash? Also those ranges are still vastly more than the average person will drive in a day. Worrying about things like this is using the same thought process as those that buy trucks to haul mulch or some lawn and garden stuff 1-2 times a year.
Many of these reviews act like every EV needs to be able to get you from NY to CA once a month. Most I would bet are bought by families with at least one other car, or people who live in the city or suburbs and just need to get to work. I live 45 miles from my old office, which is above the norm, and never had any issues in winter getting to and from work on one charge.
I never read any range reviews on some imports with extremely small gas tanks in comparison. Why?
CAA in Canada did a really interesting test on the same subject last year.
[CAA EV Cold Test](https://www.caa.ca/news/caa-conducts-road-test-of-ev-range-charge-in-winter-conditions/)
I recently did a 271 mile road trip in my new 480 mile range Lucid. I had looked at chargers at the destination and chose one about 10 miles from my destination. Enter the cold that hit the east coast and I was actually shocked when it was routing me to a charger barely 150 miles away as my first charging stop as I started the trip because it couldn't make the whole drive in one charge.
The trip went fine, but it was a real wakeup call about the limitations of EVs- but it was a lot more fuss than I expected for only 300 miles.
My Ioniq 5 rental was horribly inefficient during last weeks snow in northern NY, with no hotel charging available. Temperatures didn't go above 18F the entire time there. I own an EV6 at home down south where it gets cold but never snows, so I expect some range loss but man was I surprised.
I got between .7 and 1.3 mi/kWh on each trip, which meant I had to constantly top up my battery. Charging stations were either full or out of order, with cars charging extremely slowly and to 100% because of the climate, so I had a few moments of stressful hunting at 20% battery to make my schedule.
That said, instant heat and AWD snow mode made getting around a pleasant experience. Would still own an EV up north if I had home charging.
That's at a speed between 60 and 80km/h. Don't expect this at highway speed. I lose around 50% of EPA range in my Mach-E extended 2025 when it's those temps. Still love the car and it's great in 99% of cases. In the worst of cases I'd just have to stop 10 minutes to charge a bit.
The range drop for a gas car in the same conditions as the article is 24%, or up to 33% in short range driving (source: EPA)
Also the WLTP is terrible. EPA estimates are more on point, and would give the Lucid a 37% range drop, not the 46% in the article. Same for the MB CLA: 30% EPA, vs 41% drop using WLTP in the article.
My model 3 has a stated 260 miles at full charge. Temps are around 60 degrees C. A 120 mile round trip will reduce my battery to 10 percent driving at 70 mph.
They suck long distances but are great for small commutes
I suspect you meant F not C, but that's like over 400wh/mi while my model 3 can do 200wh/mi easily in that weather. Something doesn't add up or you've got a lead foot.
My model 3 has a stated 260 miles at full charge. Temps are around 60 degrees C. A 120 mile round trip will reduce my battery to 10 percent driving at 70 mph.
This test is not comparing apples to apples. It compares real world range in the cold to WLTP range while most people will never get WLTP range even in warm weather.
My rule of thumb is 2/3 of WLTP is realistic. Using this as a basis the range loss in the cold is only 15 - 20% which is pretty good for this extreme cold.
The range drop since it's been below freezing in our EX30 is definitely noticable but then againt we've only had it since the end of November. Will be nice to see how it is in the Spring/Summer. I stopped charging our CX-90 PHEV and just throw \~$2.60 87 octane in it and drive it in Sport mode until the Spring.
ICE cars also experience range loss in the cold (it can be as much as 30% for short trips) but it averages to be about 10% to 20%, just to give some perspective
I drive from SoCal to Tahoe at least 4 times a year, two of them in winter with sub freezing temps along 395. With stops for my wife, dog and toddler the trip takes no longer in our (relatively slow charging) Rivian than it took in our F150. And the rest of the year I’m saving $200/mo on fuel.
If you can charge at home, EV is the way to go regardless of climate.
Following is info on how much ICE, Hybrid and EVs lose in the Cold.
[US DOE: Fuel Economy in Cold Weather](https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather)
Cold weather and winter driving conditions can significantly reduce fuel economy. Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4- mile) trips.
Cold weather effects can vary by vehicle model. However, expect conventional gasoline vehicles to suffer a 10% to 20% fuel economy loss in city driving and a 15% to 33% loss on short trips.
The effect on hybrids is typically greater - with fuel economy dropping about 30% to 34% under these conditions. For hybrids typically decreases fuel economy 0% to 40% in city driving and 25% το 45% on short trips.
[Why Do Cars Get Worse Fuel Economy in Cold Weather?](https://www.cars.com/articles/why-do-cars-get-worse-fuel-economy-in-cold-weather-475436/)
[How Much Range Do EVs Lose](https://insideevs.com/news/747374/ev-range-loss-cold-heat-pump-data/)
EVs with a heat pump retain 83% of their real-world range in freezing temperatures on average. EVs without a heat pump lose roughly 25% of their real-world range on average.
The original article in Norwegian:
https://www.motor.no/bil/rekkeviddetesten-vinteren-2026/344177
The Kia EV4 had one of the better results driving further than the more expensive BMW
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