What part of England has the most distinct (and “non-English”) identity?

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upthetruth1@reddit

Thankfully you're still become a minority

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Sage-Freke-@reddit

What is English if the capital isn’t even English. Hah. Not disagreeing by the way.

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The_Molemans_bawbag@reddit

London is just Mordor at this point, the only purpose it serves is to keep the orcs out of the Shires.

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upthetruth1@reddit

Then stop asking for London money, welfare queens

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ThaiFoodThaiFood@reddit

London is the fifth constituent country of the UK

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ejh1818@reddit

This is it. I have lived in 3 other major UK cities (now live in London) plus various smaller towns and all are just versions of England except London. London is entirely different.

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Typical-Audience3278@reddit

This is the correct answer and long may it continue

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Loose_Acanthaceae201@reddit

London is more like New York than the rest of the UK.

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Rhosddu@reddit

Oswestry in N.W. Shropshire and its surrounding villages have locally-born Welsh speakers. When I visit, I occasionally hear fluent Welsh being spoken in a Shropshire accent.

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janner_womble@reddit

The 'Scouse not English' sentiment did not, contrary to popular belief, originate from Football.

The birth of the sentiment came as a result of how Scousers were essentially used for the donkey work during the Industrial Revolution while the money, development and credit was centered around Manchester, a regional system driven by the moneymen of London - hence the sentiment.

I would say Cornwall, like South Devon, has plenty of people with a resentment for England because our region has always been ignored on just about every level besides the Victorian ideals of keeping it attractive enough to draw all their pensioners so that the skew of productivity becomes such an economic barrier that we simply cannot develop our region properly. Fk England and fk all their many thousands of poxy arrogant retirees who wobble down every fkn year.

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Psychological-Ad1264@reddit

Fk England

Ok, full independence seeing how you hate us so much.

Full hard border with no more tourists as you want.

Enjoy utter economic collapse.

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janner_womble@reddit

Great, then you can keep all your pensioners who retire down here draining our resources.

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Ordinary_Garage_3021@reddit

There are plenty of devonian pensioners who retire in devon too. My grandparents and aunt and uncle being examples of this!

Fortunately they have rather better manners than you appear to though, and like most devonians are quite happy with their english identity

Plenty of young devonians also go the other way, up to London to seek opportunities in jobs in thinks like tech and finance which simply aren't available in rural areas, and then return later in life

One wonders if you have ever had to move anywhere to seek opportunities....

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Ordinary_Garage_3021@reddit

Qoute

"South Devon, has plenty of people with a resentment for England "

Have lived in the area my entire life and this is just nonsense. Probably the most number of english flags I have seen have been in devon and it has quite a proud english identity.

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janner_womble@reddit

Oh yeah - The English Riviera. Tell me, how much real investment to capitalise upon this moniker actually comes to the Torbay region? Moreover, how does the dribble of investment benefit the locals?

I lived in Torquay for a few years and, irrespective of what you might claim, there is a profound poverty problem there. So yeah, The English Riviera - such a lovely idea that delivers next to nothing to the locals in the poorer areas. What good is novelty if it only laces the boot?

Now, flags. The reason you see so many flags down here is because of the strong maritime presence and the history that bred it. What you see along the waterfront areas in places like Torquay, Plymouth, etc, is 100% an inaccurate reflection of the rest of the respective locations. I know for an absolute fact that you do not see an abundance of these flags in the poorer districts of these places - perhaps you might want to visit areas that aren't riddled with such disparate fluffiness.

I live in Prince Rock, Plymouth - only a 20 minute walk away from the Barbican. In less than a mile, the flags are gone - not one. I'm not talking about the local Bovver with a bedsheet taped to his window or the local gammon with a Reform sponsored monstrosity melting into his car window, I'm talking about flags - not one.

With regards the resentment felt in South Devon, I said 'plenty of people' - that doesn't mean all or most, just plenty and I 100% stand by it because I know it as fact.

As for 'Scouse, not English' - you can say what you like and nod along with the other ill-informed sheep. It is 100% a sentiment borne of the historical detachment felt by Scousers, that is an absolute fact known by anyone who can be bothered to check their facts.

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Ordinary_Garage_3021@reddit

You are shadow boxing here. Your statement that I disagreed with and which I feel there is no widespread real evidence for was that "South Devon, has plenty of people with a resentment for England ". It really doesn't and you just went on some other rant about poverty, novelty and about how the english riviera doesn't bring revenue to south devon, even though I didn't mention any of that in the reply. I was noting that given the south devon coast has an area called the english riviera and is popularly marketed as such and accepted as such by locals, it would seem unlikely your claim about there being plenty of resentment for the idea of england in south devon to be somewhat nonsensical.

Qoute

"I lived in Torquay for a few years and, irrespective of what you might claim, there is a profound poverty problem there."

I made no comment on the economic situation of torquay or any other area. How is this tangent relevant to my point?

Qoute

"Oh yeah - The English Riviera. Tell me, how much real investment to capitalise upon this moniker actually comes to the Torbay region? Moreover, how does the dribble of investment benefit the locals?"

Given your claim was that people in south devon resented the idea of england, I would suggest if that was actually the case (it isn't) then it would probably have been renamed by locals by now... it is rather popularly embraced on the contrary.

Qoute

"What you see along the waterfront areas in places like Torquay, Plymouth, etc, is 100% an inaccurate reflection of the rest of the respective locations. I know for an absolute fact that you do not see an abundance of these flags in the poorer districts of these places - perhaps you might want to visit areas that aren't riddled with such disparate fluffiness."

I see plenty of england, devon and union flags in all parts of devon pretty much everywhere I go. I went to sidmouth the other week and there were 2 england flags prominently displayed, one in the town square and one on the cricket ground on proper flag poles. Plenty along the coast road and in south east devon too. Been to exeter recently?

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"that is an absolute fact known by anyone who can be bothered to check their facts."

Saying absolute fact repeatedly doesn't make any of your poorly explained or evidenced opinions factual does it though

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"Now, flags. The reason you see so many flags down here is because of the strong maritime presence and the history that bred it."

The st georges cross has never really been maritime flag in the modern sense at all, especially for the Royal navy over the past few hundreds of years. People in devon put it up because they feel they identify with england.

Qoute

"Bovver with a bedsheet taped to his window or the local gammon with a Reform sponsored monstrosity melting into his car window, I'm talking about flags - not one."

This again seems like a generalised rant and isn't really in response to any of the points I raised. I think it reveals far more about you, what you think about england and english identity which shaped your original comment I was replying to, the one I challenged and felt was inaccurate,

Qoute

"As for 'Scouse, not English' - you can say what you like and nod along with the other ill-informed sheep. It is 100% a sentiment borne of the historical detachment felt by Scousers"

There is no polling evidence that a majority of people in Liverpool even reject england or english identity. But sure, go on your rant.

Qoute

"With regards the resentment felt in South Devon, I said 'plenty of people' - that doesn't mean all or most, just plenty and I 100% stand by it because I know it as fact."

Plenty generally implies there would be lots, to which there is no evidence of, and which you can't provide any factual evidence for. Its bollocks. You seem to have a lot of grievances and are projecting this onto a situation and claim that south devon rejects an english identity which simply isn't true.

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Loose_Acanthaceae201@reddit

That's all fuck London rather than fuck England though isn't it?

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poopio@reddit

The birth of the sentiment came as a result of how Scousers were essentially used for the donkey work during the Industrial Revolution while the money, development and credit was centered around Manchester, a regional system driven by the moneymen of London - hence the sentiment.

That's bollocks, but I would quite happily chip that part of England off and let it float into the ocean and they can do their own thing, provided we have national sevice to push it further away.

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bnnyrabbit@reddit

cornwall and most if not all of the north

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Ordinary_Garage_3021@reddit

The north of england has some of the strongest english identity according to polling on the subject

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EUskeptik@reddit

Cornwall. ✅

Liverpool. ✅

Yorkshire. ✅

Tyneside. ✅

-oo-

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Ordinary_Garage_3021@reddit

Cornwall is really the only place amongst those with a movement that rejects english identity, aside from people on reddit. Polling shows english identity is actually very strong in yorkshire and the north east

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drunken-acolyte@reddit

Even as a "Scouse not English" Scouser, I'd say Cornwall. Their non-English identity (and anti-English resentment) is so strong it bleeds into rural Devon. Meanwhile on Merseyside, we do have some of those neighbourhoods where people put St George's crosses on the lampposts.

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Ordinary_Garage_3021@reddit

I have been surrounded by rural Devon all my life and have never encountered any anti english identity. On the contrary Devon has a very strong local identity and english identity.

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Electricbell20@reddit

Reform is second place in terms of councillors in Cornwall.

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Politicub@reddit

Almost like they're both British parties rather than English. Plus the Lib Dems have long been known as the party of the Celtic fringe. It's only since the Tories lurched to the right did the LDs start picking up more middle England voters.

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Sage-Freke-@reddit

The Tories lurched to the right? Where were they before?

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drunken-acolyte@reddit

It's about the choice of flag. Some of these areas are going for Union Flags - representing Britain rather than England. I'm talking about the use of England's flag - St George's Cross - specifically. There's a big Reform element in Wales, but I doubt they're picking St George's cross over the Union Flag or the Red Dragon.

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LowarnFox@reddit

In Cornwall I do see the occasional English flag and Union Jack, but I also see a lot of Cornish flags as well and I will say in my town when people tried to do the English flag thing the ones in public places didn't last long at all compared to many other parts of the UK.

There's still a lot of people in Cornwall who take specific offence to the English flag.

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Foolish_ness@reddit

They also have their own language, albeit not many know it.

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TinhatToyboy@reddit

Had, the last native speaker died many years ago.

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HugeEntrepreneur8225@reddit

1777… Dolly 👍🏼

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HaraldRedbeard@reddit

Was the last monoglaut...maybe. It mostly seems like it was a cute story to tell the King. However yes the current language is definitely a revival

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keithmk@reddit

we do have some of those neighbourhoods where people put St George's crosses on the lampposts.
Yeah but everywhere has its nutters

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SoggyWotsits@reddit

I can’t say I’ve met many people who hate the English, and I’ve lived in Cornwall all my life - over 40 years. As for our own language, only a few thousand can speak it and that’s only because of a recent effort to learn it.

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Tall-Paul-UK@reddit

Kernow bys vyken! 🤣

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SpecialistAd7120@reddit

Honesty, I respect that

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flippertyflip@reddit

I don't get the 'scouse not English' thing.

You can be not proud of being English certainly but it's not like it's a choice to be English or not.

Seems like a cop out to say 'All of that shit is nothing to do with me. I absolve myself of it'

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rising_then_falling@reddit

London. It's a city state surrounded by the country of England.

Cornwall is a grumpy part of England with its own flag and a tiny hobby language. It's no more separate from the rest of England than Norfolk is. Cornwall may make being different part of its identity, but it's not actually that different from any other rural part of England.

London is a completely separate culture with a wildly different linguistic, ethnic and socioeconomic profile to the rest of country.

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SoggyWotsits@reddit

I mean Cornish predates English as a language, but very few people speak it now. Cornwall was also independent to England at one point too. So the things that make it different are real, but we wouldn’t survive on our own.

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dwair@reddit

I think Cornwall was absorbed into England in 1876(?) when it 'officially' became a county. It still has its own independent stanary parliament, can raise its own taxes and has a it's own legal system. Apart from that, there is no legal evidence it was ever part of England or became part of the Union.

Interestingly, there is a sound and logical argument beyond 'that's just silly' that Cornwall could thrive away from the rest of the UK. Micro nations such as Iceland and Malta seem to be doing OK and their successes could be mirrored down here on the peninsula if people were so inclined. I don't subscribe to independence but the Cornish nationalists do make some valid points at times.

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D3ADM0NEY@reddit

Whats your source for 1876?

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dwair@reddit

Sorry. It was 1889 when Cornwall first became an administrative county so I was a few years out. I'm on my phone at the moment so links are a pain. You could always Google it like I have just done.

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D3ADM0NEY@reddit

Google tells me Cornwall has been a part of England since 1066, which is why I asked. Not trying to be a dick.

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dwair@reddit

OK, up untill 1035, Cornwall, along with Wales and Scotland, wasn't anexed by Canute and opperated as an independent territory which paid a tax to the Danes.

Just before and around the Norman invasion its really murky. Condor potentially, a direct descendent of Doniert who was the last official kind of Cornwall, was in charge of the semi autonomous region of Cornwall. Some historians say he was a king, a king in waiting or the Earl of Cornwall. No one is sure whether he was on Haralds side or sided with the Norman's when they invaded or what any alliances if there were any were about.

Anyway, William the conqueror kept him on as an Earl after the Norman Conquest, which some believe was payment for siding against Harald and the English. Much of the Cornish land was then seized by various Norman's over the next hundred years and nothing more is known about Codor.

Fast forward to 1337, and Cornwall was gifted by Royal Charter to Edward, the Black Prince by king Edward III which effectively turned Cornwall from a Earldom into an independent Duchy as it became a private estate for whoever is the Prince of Wales.

As an independent Duchy, it had its own laws and taxes completely separate from England and was controlled directly by the Prince of the day and not whoever sat on the English throne.

Then entered a long period where Cornwall rebelled against anything English including raising and army matching on London several times (1497, 1549, 1648) and rioting against the English for almost the entirety of the 19th century.

At the end of the 19th century, Cornwall was first noted in legal documents as an English county, although none of the Prince of Wales rights or the Duchy have ever been rescinded. This presumably was a way of the English Crown and Parliament trying to control the Duchy by the back door as it were.

Bottom line is we are still the property of the Prince of Wales and officially, beyond assimilation, we are nothing to do with England. This is especially true as there is no written record of a union between with England (this exists with all other constituent parts of the United Kingdom)

It's all obviously more complex and tangled than that but I hope I've given a reasonably accurate and unbiased assessment.

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Ordinary_Garage_3021@reddit

Qoute

"Bottom line is we are still the property of the Prince of Wales and officially, beyond assimilation, we are nothing to do with England. This is especially true as there is no written record of a union between with England (this exists with all other constituent parts of the United Kingdom)"

The Duchy of Cornwall and the ceremonial county are both different and civer different areas. Cornwall is administratively and constitutionally speaking a county in england. There is no written record for example of other specific counties being absorbed into the kingdom of england either, like somerset or dorset. These were part of the kingdom of wessex, as was Cornwall!n when england formed

Qoute

"As an independent Duchy, it had its own laws and taxes completely separate from England and was controlled directly by the Prince of the day and not whoever sat on the English throne."

It wasn't completely seperafe in laws or taxes either, and ither parts of england had more autonomy at the time, namely county palatines like county durham

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clutchnorris123@reddit

Just like people down south say us Scots couldn't survive on our own as well like there aren't loads of countries with a similar populations thriving like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Estonia etc etc

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Linden_Lea_01@reddit

They’re real but sadly have a very small presence in Cornwall, so it really isn’t very different from the rest of the south west for the most part.

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SoggyWotsits@reddit

Different enough for the Cornish and to have protected status. Along with our language, even if very few speak it.

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clutchnorris123@reddit

Don't worry people try to tell us Scots we aren't any different from most of England as well until they move here and realise they were wrong.

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SoggyWotsits@reddit

You mean the mostly northerly part of England, right?! But yeah, people who compare Cornwall to Norfolk have never read any Cornish history.

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clutchnorris123@reddit

Aye we have quite a lot in common with Geordies for example but my grandad is from Southampton and he doesn't even understand me when I speak let alone have anything in common.

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SoggyWotsits@reddit

There are some unusual differences with Cornwall though, including the Cornish descending from Iron Age celts instead of the Anglo Saxons like most English people. There’s a brief summary here.

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dwair@reddit

London has a completely harmonious culture synonymus with anywhere in the UK north of the Tamar river and south of Yorkshire. You might find micro differences by way of how people refer to bread rolls or how much Westminster gives your councils but from the outside you can pretty much lump it all together as the same.

London itself is the same as as every other overpopulated region in the world with only superficial differences in architecture and the way it smells. Scratch below the surface and it's the same as Delhi, Lagos or Cairo. It's just city people doing city things under a cloud of pollution and claustrophobia.

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keithmk@reddit

can I infer that you are not a great fan of London?

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dwair@reddit

I don't dislike London particularly but I don't see it as particularly different or unique, especially in southern Britain. It's just a harmoninisd built up area. Big city's are basically the same everywhere and suffer from similar problems.

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Ajax_Trees_Again@reddit

You can’t be the political and economic core of the country and then play the “uhm we’re not actually English card”

Just about every think stereotypical about “Englishness” that plays on TV is actually about London.

Cornwall has a much stronger case

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Kind_Shift_8121@reddit

London would need an identity to enable this to be true. I was born and grew up there, and my memories of London were of an amazing and vibrant city comprised of hundreds of adjoining communities.

I can’t be certain as I’ve not lived there for 10 years, but having recently visited my former borough, I can’t help but feel that it’s all been washed away through gentrification.

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oodjamaflip@reddit

Norfolk is very separate thank you very much apart from the spiked bit inhabited by Fry and his London smart arse friends

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Hereward22@reddit

Scousers.... they hate the English

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Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit

Newcastle has the oldest accent in the country, going back to before the formation of the English state.

Then there's Norfolk. The old medical abbreviation NFN is informative.

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herefromthere@reddit

That's a bit of a strange thing to say. All accents are equally old.

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Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit

No, they're not. Language changes all the time, and changes in well understood & predictable ways. For example the American accent, with its hard consonants and flattened vowels, sounds a lot more like the way Shakespear spoke than the modern English accent. Britain has always had greater population density & mobility, so the rate of change is greater than in the US.

Bill Bryson wrote very interestingly about this - he's worth looking into.

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herefromthere@reddit

All accents are equally old. About as old as people, as we all have our own idiolect which is influenced by the language we experience around us and our personality and taste.

You can say some accents have more conservative features, but not that one accent is older than another. Those with some conservative features might also have features that have changed more rapidly as well.

I think you're trying to say that you feel that American accents are closer to Shakespeare than RP for example, but you are likely unfamiliar with many other British accents that are arguably much closer both geographically and linguistically.

It's a massive oversimplification to say anything about the American accent, or the British accent, and it's one we hear not infrequently from Americans.

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Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit

I've lived in Britain for 50 years, so I have run into a fair cross section during that time.

In terms of language change I suggest reading up on simplification shifts. The process under which all languages tend to mush hard sounds together. A great example of this is how many Americans still drink wahderr, whilst Brits now drink wo'er or wahtah, depending on their class. Argue with Bill Bryson if you feel strongly about it - the idea seems self-evidently correct to me, including how completely new words are created by this process, innit.

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According-Course1894@reddit

Possibly dumb question... Would " wo'er by a cockney accent ? Just curious

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Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit

More a general working class thing. It's not universal - there are regions where dropping your T isn't that normal, and plenty of working class people do have perfect diction.

Did you ever see My Fair Lady? The scene where Eliza finally gets it? The rain in Spain. Anyway - here's the reverse -

https://youtu.be/Uz9_YfIQaz4?si=_cojZ2jdWT6h7sXY

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No_Bullfrog_6474@reddit

not all modern english accents - i’ve always found that shakespeare OP sounds quite west country

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Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit

I am an American who lives in the UK. My accent has softened but is still there. A lot of people assume I'm from the west country.

I'm sure there wasn't a single Elizabethan accent either, just to make make life complicated. Did Shakespeare have a proto-Brummie accent? Imo Romeo & Juliet done by Yosemite Sam could be the pinnacle of our civilisation. 😁

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No_Bullfrog_6474@reddit

i would imagine that having a mix of accents is probably the best way to get closest to shakespeare OP since its features are spread out across accents all across the english-speaking world! i imagine a kiwi living a long time in certain parts of the usa or uk could get pretty close too. i thiiink part of shakespeare OP is that it was a bit of a hybrid accent itself, from a mix of contemporary uk accents. it’s been a while since i watched anything about it though - i went to see a talk about it by david crystal 6 years ago and every so often i obsess over it slightly hahaha, there’s a lecture about it by ben crystal up on youtube that i love too

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Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit

Sounds facinating!

Last year I saw the film Sing Sing, which I recommend. If you read the summary you'll think been-there-done-that, and you'll be right up to a point - you'll guess some of the main plot arcs. But it really doesn't matter - amongst other things there's a thing they do with a well known Shakespearean speech that is just stunning.

What? You've seen it? Oh bugger. 😆

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MercianRaider@reddit

London, or any city/town with a big non native population, such as Bradford/Leicester/Slough/Birmingham. Feels pretty alien.

Some would argue Cornwall, but its extremely white and British. Sure its got the strongest Celtic identity out of anywhere in England, but thats not alien to the English. Dont forget the English came about from a mix of celtic Britons and germanic tribes. We might speak a germanic language but the average English person has more celtic ancestry than germanic ancestry.

I go camping in Cornwall twice a year on average and it feels like home. Im from Shropshire and apart from the lack of coastline and good pasties it feels similar, even though Cornwall does have its own identity. Narrow lanes, farms, country pubs, friendly people. The other places i mentioned above feel alien in comparison.

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MoghediensWeb@reddit

Berwick. It's pretty much Scotland - it's changed hands between Scotland and England about 13 times.

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Salt-Fig-8957@reddit

I went to Berwick recently—you can tell it’s English!

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MoghediensWeb@reddit

The buildings are super Scottish .

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Dismal_Fox_22@reddit

Corby. It’s in the East Midlands but has a Scottish accent, a Scottish history, a highland gathering and a Celtic culture. It’s a mini Scotland

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mrshakeshaft@reddit

It’s also an absolute shithole. When I was a kid our football team played a match against a team from Corby called Gregory Celtic. It was fucking weird. They all had Scottish accents and spent the whole game trying to kick chunks out of us. We ended up abandoning the game midway through the second half because it kept kicking off. A one point one of their players tried to start a fight with one of our players mums.

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Hellolaoshi@reddit

I have never been to Corby. I think the closest I got was Peterborough. My aunt from lowland Scotland (as I am), used to live there. She spoke about friends she made there. She moved back to Scotland in 1966.

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Jam__Hands@reddit

Peterborough isn't much better to be fair.

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Dismal_Fox_22@reddit

Yeah that was probably my cousin. Sorry about that. His mums a bit of a nutter

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LeastFox8059@reddit

But you did invent the trouser press

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Dismal_Fox_22@reddit

The trouser press is nothing to do with Corby town. They were invented by John Corby form Berkshire

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LeastFox8059@reddit

It was a joke.

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Mav_Learns_CS@reddit

Excellent shout, playing a Corby football team for the first time as a kid was confusing af

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barkley87@reddit

One of my colleagues lives near Corby and her daughter does highland dancing. It's a big thing there, lots of kids do it.

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mrshakeshaft@reddit

They definitely used to but it’s not as common now I don’t think

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poopio@reddit

...and no steel works anymore, which is why all the Scots came down here.

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underweasl@reddit

I didn't know much about corby until I watched the show with Jodie Whittacker about the children born with birth defects. Its so shit how we put profits ahead of people

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Obvious-Water569@reddit

Cornwall and Norfolk both give Hot Fuzz "for the greater good" but still feel like England.

I think I'd have to go with a really alternative, artsy leaning city like Bristol or Brighton. They both sort of fly in the face of traditional English rigidity.

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Down-Right-Mystical@reddit

But Hot Fuzz was filmed in Somerset. 😂

And yeah, we have a bit of the, 'we're something other than just English,' vibe: partly because some people forget we exist, and if they do remember they can only think of The Wurzels and assume we're all country bumpkins.

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Left-Ad-3412@reddit

The ones with the most noticeable recognisable accents tend to consider themselves more as that than English, but they all consider themselves English too.

Soursers is more "English? .... No mate I'm a Scouser (a special kind of English)" it isn't a "we aren't English" thing. It's more a "we aren't JUST English". Like a "this isn't just food... this is M&S food" type thing

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markusparkus75@reddit

None of them. England, and indeed the rest of the UK, are surprisingly homogeneous compared to other European neighbours. There are parts of Italy that are more distinct than each other than England and Scotland for instance. The whole thing about how if you travel 10 miles and there’s a completely different accent, dialect and three new names for bread rolls is just a thing we tell ourselves to mask the fact the UK has little real regional diversity.

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eclangvisual@reddit

Italy is quite an extreme example tbf. We’re definitely more homogeneous than Italians yeah but much less so than most other European nations.

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peterbparker86@reddit

Absolute bollocks that

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markusparkus75@reddit

Well, you’ve convinced me.

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jar_jar_LYNX@reddit

It has got to be Cornwall due to being an actual nation with a language with a small independence movement. But yeah Liverpool is probably second? The fact that the accent is so distinct and different from the surrounding Northwestern English accents says a lot if you know anything about sociolinguistics

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eclangvisual@reddit

Cumbric is 99.999999% dead unfortunately but it was likely a strain of old Welsh, maybe even being entirely mutually intelligible. Cumbria=Cymru

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TinnitusWaves@reddit

I grew up in Cumbria. We have our own language.

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drplokta@reddit

“Used to have” would be more accurate. Cumbric went extinct as a spoken language in the late mediaeval period, and only survives in place names and (possibly but disputed) a few vestiges like counting rhymes.

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eclangvisual@reddit

I’d say even the modern Cumbrian dialect is not far off being a language tbf. It can be pretty hard to understand, much more than Scouse or Geordie & that’s from someone who lived there. The West Coast especially is extremely isolated from the rest of England.

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irv81@reddit

As a Geordie, I've always felt somewhat sandwiched between the Scottish to the North and the English to the South.

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Old_Roof@reddit

Northumbria was the quintessential Anglo Saxon kingdom. Geordies are definitely English. Just a different flavour of Englishness to others

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finance-matt@reddit

We have a lot more in common with lowland Scotland than southern England in my view: culture, language, shared history, etc

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tittysherman1309@reddit

Tbh I think most of the north has more in common with Scotland than the south

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irv81@reddit

We have a lot more in common with lowland Scotland than southern England in my view: culture, language, shared history, etc

This is true, my family name is of Border Reiver origin

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clutchnorris123@reddit

As a Scot I agree you Geordies are honorary Scots stuck on the wrong side of the border.

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Present_Program6554@reddit

As a Geordie you're welcome in Scotland anytime.

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Orange_Codex@reddit

London.

It's long been a civic identity, is now a unique cultural zone (more distinct from the rest of England than Highland Scotland), and is rapidly developing its own language and ethnicity. It started that a little too late in the global travel age to truly pull it off - arguably, it also laid the groundwork for the global travel age... - but in another time we'd be seeing the equivalent of medieval Venice pop off.

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properjobby@reddit

Cornwall. Has its own language. Cornish don't see themselves as English and are proud of their heritage. You don't have to go far to see a Cornish flag flying. And of course its home to the finest cuisine in the world. The humble pasty.

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BristowBailey@reddit

As a Londoner I'd say London, definitely. Most English non-Londoners don't like it. Politically, culturally and economically it's very distinct from the rest of England. In many ways I'd say we have more in common with other large cities like Paris or New York than the rest of England.

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shelleypiper@reddit

Corby in Northamptonshire is very Scottish

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MattDubh@reddit

The Isle Of Man

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MyCatIsAFknIdiot@reddit

Not part of England

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MattDubh@reddit

Thanks, professor interesting

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MyCatIsAFknIdiot@reddit

You are welcome Needed-to-Be-Educated-About-Their-Own-Country Student

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MattDubh@reddit

I'm not a Brit.

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MyCatIsAFknIdiot@reddit

Even worse. So you make a statement with an air of authority about a country and you get it 100% wrong.

THEN resort to childish, puerile name calling to call me out for correcting you?

And you are not even from that country???

Clearly your educational needs run much deeper than just basic geography.

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MattDubh@reddit

A link to a Fast Show sketch isn't the deep think you're making it out to be.

Presumably a Python gag would be too much of a struggle, too.

My goodness. What has Britain come to?

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-auntiesloth-@reddit

London, for sure. We have completely different rules about etiquette in public, and when people from other parts of the UK come here and break said etiquette (ie. Not letting others off the tube before boarding, blocking everyone's way absolutely everywhere for some reason, talking to people who haven't invited conversation, etc.) they accuse US of being the rude ones. 😂

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GroundbreakingAsk730@reddit

Yes i think London should leave the union and go to its own thing for sure youre totally not English but oh no we'd all be so so upset if you left. Maybe like out of that door over there points fuiroisly nooo London please dont leave the rest of the country would be soooo upset

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sbaldrick33@reddit

Suits me. London and Scotland can leave, and then everywhere else can prostitute themselves to frogface as much as they like.

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GroundbreakingAsk730@reddit

Mate im from newcastle if anyone is fucking off with Scotland its us. Maybe we would actually get some investment if we were to join an independent Scotland. The country is in such a state partly because of how insanely londoncentric politics, culture, finance, spending and pretty much everything else is.

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Alone_Bet_1108@reddit

Word.

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flippertyflip@reddit

Go to London. I guarantee you'll either be mugged or not appreciated. Catch the train to London, stopping at Rejection, Disappointment, Backstabbing Central and Shattered Dreams Parkway

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nonsequitur__@reddit

Letting people off tubes/trains is the same across the UK.

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WinkyNurdo@reddit

My immediate thought was London. But then I remembered that 40% of Londoners weren’t born in the UK. And that only about 40% of the remaining 60% were actually born in London. Then I remembered that none of this actually matters with regards OPs question.

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Alone_Bet_1108@reddit

Letting people off public transport before you board is a pretty universal habit across the UK.

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wo_no_diggity_doubt@reddit

God. It's definitely not British.

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Temporary_Regular_99@reddit

Scouse not english? What abstract nationality is that then?! Liverpudlinians?!!!!!!! Irish, Welsh, Scottish, all 'non-english'. Everything thing else is English, even those in Cornwall, they're are just different forms of English.

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Opening-Tea-257@reddit

I dont really think Cornwall has a particularly non-English identity. Ok a language exists but any full on native speakers died out centuries ago. A few people learn some words here and there but it’s not like you walk into a pub and people are speaking it. As far as I can tell, the only marker of Cornish identity is pasties and that they put jam on their clotted cream first.

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dwair@reddit

I've lived all over the UK and Cornwall is the least English part I have lived in. That includes NW Welsh speaking Wales and the Highlands. Sure it's English speaking due to sustained migration and the deliberate eradication of the language but it's still really not like anywhere else on these islands. Lewis and the Orkneys have a bit of the same vibe though.

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Crumptes@reddit

Cornwall felt less English than parts of Wales or the Highlands? I just can't imagine how that is so. I've been to Cornwall and if felt like the rest of England to me. The Highlands, oddly enough, feel like Scotland. Even on a very basic level, the Highlands have a different predominant religion, school system, legal system and their dialect is a subset of Scottish English not English English. I think you'd be hard pressed to objectively demonstrate it's more culturally English (a country it's never been a part of) than Cornwall.

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Opening-Tea-257@reddit

I can’t agree with you there. My wife’s Cornish (I’m from Essex originally) so I’ve spent huge amounts of time down there and I really don’t feel as if it’s different from any other rural part of England. I’ve also spent time in NW Wales where Welsh is the predominately spoke ln language and that to me really does feel much more non-English.

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dwair@reddit

Isn't that because you're not used to hearing Welsh spoken everywhere? As a Welsh speaker it does make a difference but not as much as you think if you understand what's being said. I'm from very Welsh N Wales so I don't notice the language thing much, but rather notice what's being said.

Put it another way, culturally, is the main reason France is different because they speak French, or are there deeper but and more subtle differences like community spirit, a mistrust of central government and the entitlement to a good quality of life?

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Opening-Tea-257@reddit

It’s a good question. I think the language makes a huge difference as it will lead into cultural activities like music or just general folk stories which help create an identity. Some people have argued that each language shapes how we perceive the world (although I don’t know if that’s a bit of an old-fashioned theory).

But I guess it isnt just language. For example in Italy, Milan and Naples feel like they could be in different countries and it is a number of things not just language. As a result of the weather, the history, the food etc Milan feels more like a Central European city whereas for some of the same reasons Naples has a totally different culture even they ostensibly speak the same language (I know Calabrians speak a particular dialect but I don’t think it’s quite as different as English and Welsh. Happy to admit I’m wrong if that’s the case.).

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BlessingsOfLiberty25@reddit

Basically everyone on British reddit is white, and Britain is much, much more segregated than anyone allows themselves to think, and people only know what they know.

Those that for whatever reason have to venture out of their ethnic enclaves will know that, with only a third of it's people being ethnically English, the answer is London and it is not even close.

A solid majority don't think of themselves as English in the slightest, and a good chunk more only partially (there's a whole census question about it!)

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St3ampunkSam@reddit

Everyone but the southerners, the only true english people. /s

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jaarn@reddit

Oswestry. Got booked to play a pub there during the Euros (I'm a singer) amd turned up in an England shirt to play really awkward set to a bunch of old blokes in Welsh rugby shirts. Odd little town.

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YchYFi@reddit

That's a border town for you.

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weedywet@reddit

Buckingham Palace.

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Oofoofoof969@reddit

Cornwall, its an actually organized movement there. 'Scouse not English' is mostly just an extension of football fanatics.

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KittyCat-86@reddit

Gosaf Kernow, or something like that. My parents ran a small hotel down there and the England Tourist Board would make them display their rating on a sign outside which including the tourist board's logo, an English rose. The amount of times they had to clean/replace that damn sign because someone spray painted a Cornish flag over the rose. They even once got a letter form the "Cornish Resistance" telling them to stop using the sign as it wasn't welcome 🤣

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HaraldRedbeard@reddit

To be fair the English Tourist Board and English Heritage at Tintagel are both emblematic of national organisations making alot of money/advertising in Cornwall and using it elsewhere so not surprising they attract a certain amount of hate.

"Take all the tourists, well keep all the money" is a hard sell

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Oofoofoof969@reddit

Yep that's generally the worse they'll go. The only worse thing that's happened in a long time is that in 2007 the 'Cornish Liberation Army' threatened to burn down two restaurants owned by English Chefs. Of course they didn't go through with it but it's an interesting story.

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Carnmeor@reddit

Well there was that time they bombed the courthouse in st Austell. Admittedly that was a while ago.

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Ajax_Trees_Again@reddit

A lot of the Scouse not English stuff is also Irish people trying to get over the mental gymnastics of supporting an English football team created by a Tory Lord Mayor

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No_Election_1123@reddit

Jonn Elledge had an interesting Substack on Cornish independence

https://open.substack.com/pub/jonn/p/could-cornwall-really-become-the?r=2a4zuw&utm_medium=ios&shareImageVariant=overlay

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PARFT@reddit

london

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Glittering_Win_5085@reddit

I would say Cornwall. Yorkshire has a strong identity but its not one that's counter to being English like Cornish is.

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Mav_Learns_CS@reddit

Cornwall is likely the best answer to this

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SaraSceptic@reddit

To me, Cornwall is as English as any other county. I grew up in the West Country, and have some Cornish ancestry (admittedly more Devon) and so my identity growing up was completely English and included things like Cornish paintings on the walls, bucket and spade holidays in Cornwall, visits to National Trust properties, granite moors in both Devon and Cornwall which are part of the English landscape. I adored reading Arthurian legends which are both English and sometimes set in Cornwall. A Cornish ancestor of mine entertained Charles Wesley for tea; to me that is part of English history.

I have lived for 30 years in London. That is not very English. All sorts of people from all around the world, live together, work together, do shared leisure activities, but the focus is international business, international travel, relatives and ancestry from anywhere and everywhere (including but not predominantly the rest of England).

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notacanuckskibum@reddit

Guernsey

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flippertyflip@reddit

Why Guernsey and not Jersey? Or the channel Islands as a whole?

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notacanuckskibum@reddit

Guernsey struck me as more French and less English than Jersey. But I only visited once, I’m no expert.

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Oofoofoof969@reddit

Except the Channel Islands literally aren't apart of England lol.

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Ok-Web1805@reddit

Not a part of England, it's internally self governing and makes it's own laws.

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Proud-Sea-7962@reddit

There's a village down the road from mine, we have nick-named it.. six toes. It really is it's own entity. Sometimes we ask locals to open their fingers to see if they are still webbed. Not enough interbreeding goes on. The places that got invaded the most tend to have the higher iQ's. It's the same in all countries, the further you get to the extremities, the more inbred the local. I would welcome anyone outside of the county to pop over and shag someone from six toes, broaden the gene pool!... But I can't give the actual location away, for fear of being lynched, or accused of witchery... Although thinking about it... They wouldn't be able to read this anyway.

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flippertyflip@reddit

I don't get the 'scouse not English' thing.

You can be not proud of being English certainly but it's not like it's a choice to be English or not.

Seems like a cop out to say 'All of that shit is nothing to do with me. I absolve myself of it'

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Good-Gur-7742@reddit

Cornwall. Also the most unfriendly place I have ever been in my life.

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SoggyWotsits@reddit

That could be for a few reasons. You drove down a lane even though you’re incapable of reversing. You decided a farmer’s field was a good place to stop and walk your dog/have a picnic/leave your car while going for a walk. Or worst of all, you ate a Ginsters pasty and posted it online claiming it was traditional Cornish food.

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Good-Gur-7742@reddit

Sadly I did none of the above. I moved there as a born and bred Cotswold country girl, who can reverse not only a car but also a horse trailer as far as you need me to down any country lane.

I understand the issues with morons stopping for a picnic in your fields as I once had some stop in mine and they then got offended and tried to threaten me with the police when my dog ate their sandwiches.

And I don’t think I’ve ever eaten a ginsters anything. I loved the pasties from a local bakery on the edge of Bodmin moor, and would get one for breakfast every Sunday with the papers.

I just felt, for the whole time I was there, that almost everyone I met hated me simply for being in Cornwall and wished I would just fuck off. I tried to employ cornish tradesmen to work on my house, wanted to work with local small businesses, and support the local economy. In the end I had to get workmen from the Cotswolds to come down to complete the work as I was so badly let down repeatedly by Cornish workmen, either that or I was verbally harassed by them for having the audacity to buy a house there.

I’m from the Cotswolds. I fully understand how hideous it is being priced out of your home by second homers and city dwellers who want an Airbnb. I also fully appreciate how infuriating it is to encounter a tourist who is incapable of reversing on a country lane, or having your livestock disturbed by people who don’t understand the country. That being said, I would never be unfriendly or outwardly hostile towards people with no reason save them not being from the Cotswolds. I don’t understand it at all.

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dwair@reddit

I guess the problem is that because you are here, some would see you directly as the problem and resent your presence because of it.

Personally I don't have a problem with migrants if they put some effort it to become part of the community, but many won't look past that and see you personally exemplifying many of the issues in the peninsula. Small minded idiots will see you as a figurehead for our housing crisis and economic woes.

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Linden_Lea_01@reddit

I don’t think that’s just a Cornish problem; it’s a prevalent feeling in all sorts of places that get a lot of tourists and people moving there, even in other countries in places like Barcelona. Coastal towns have serious problems with deprivation and locals get understandably annoyed by people coming from wealthier parts of the country, driving up prices (particularly house prices in Cornwall I believe), and it creates a bit of a culture of dislike towards outsiders.

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MyCatIsAFknIdiot@reddit

If you are not from round y'ere, then you are not from round y'ere

Cornish people are not unfriendly, they are just delightfully intolerant to the Upper-43

After all, when you have the longest coastline of all the English counties and the accessibility of the county being a major issue, unless you are a seafarer, they are rightfully proud.

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Ok-Web1805@reddit

I'm from there, never had a problem:)

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KittyCat-86@reddit

I was going to say, they are very grumpy, until they get to know you, then they're the loveliest bunch of people.

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Good-Gur-7742@reddit

I don’t think I gave it long enough. I lasted just over a year, and called time when someone spat in my face.

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Comfortable-One8520@reddit

My husband (a New Zealander) and I (Scottish) had our sort of honeymoon in Cornwall 40 years ago.

Neither of us had been there before. It was also the middle of November. We ended up in a pub in Penzance full of locals. They heard my accent, we did the long lost Celtic cousins thing. It was a great night. They bought us drinks when they found out we were newlyweds. My Kiwi husband didn't understand a word they were saying. He also didn't understand how we were all long lost Celtic cousins although we did try to explain. But, yeah, it didn't feel English and the folk we met certainly didn't see themselves as English.

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Did_OJ_Simpson_do_it@reddit

London hence the nickname Londonistan

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BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit

In reality, most regions of England are distinct from the next and that’s because the “cultural evolution” is markedly different from one to the next…

Cornwall tends to be the go-to in this conversation but it isn’t necessarily always the most valid example…

There is just as strong a case for London being “the oddball in the room” and, as you already suggested, city regions such as Liverpool…

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sbaldrick33@reddit

Cornwall, probably.

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LowarnFox@reddit

Cornish is a recognised ethnic minority, different to English but a lot of people who live in Cornwall aren't Cornish. I do think it still has a pretty distinct identity though.

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Indecipherable_Grunt@reddit

I have never ever ever head "Scouse, not English". You just made that up, didn't you?

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lucylucylane@reddit

I hear it often by whining bitter scousers

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JohnLennonsNotDead@reddit

Try understanding it you plank.

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EasternCut8716@reddit

As a non-Scouser, I am not sure you know what you want, unless it is them to feel part of it while you insult them

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Whulad@reddit

It’s a thing but strongly connected to football and fairly recent. Back in the 80s and 70s , scousers used to follow England away as much as any teams supporters and old photos of the Kop and Liverpool away in Europe always have Union Jacks all over the place. Younger Liverpool fans try and pretend this isn’t so.

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MyCatIsAFknIdiot@reddit

That is a shame. I havent heard it before either.
But then an Irishman once told me that the capital of Ireland was actually Liverpool .. ;-)

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EuphoricGrapefruit32@reddit

It is. I think it's more anti establishment/colonialsim/monarchy kind of thing. Not reallly sure though, because although Scouse, I'm not one of them.

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Johnny_Vernacular@reddit

What a way to go through life!

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justlkin@reddit

It's a thing. Check out Google.

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drplokta@reddit

Oswestry has Welsh churches, a Welsh-language bookshop, a Welsh-language nursery, nearby Welsh-named villages like Trefonen and Gobowen, and more Welsh spoken in the street than across the border in places like Welshpool and Wrexham. (Oswestry itself is not a Welsh name despite looking a bit like it could be, with its “w” and “y”.)

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