The Also bike is poorly engineered and will be a complete flop.

Posted by happyluckystar@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 49 comments

The timing belt drive system is a failure waiting to happen. The fact that they chose this drive method indicates that the engineers have never actually ridden any bike for any substantial amount of time.

With standard bicycle chains, the chain and sprocket interface naturally clears away excessive debris. Even though this design introduces wear, it does prevent catastrophic failure.

The "flat surface to flat surface" interface of timing belt to timing horn (sprocket, pulley) interface offers no clearance or removal of debris. Junk is going to build up between those timing belt teeth and lump up and increase the tension. At first it will be slightly noticeable only because of reduced battery life from the extra tension causing increased torque load. But it will ultimately result in gearbox failure or straight up timing belt snaps.

I foresee a lot of that debris falling off from the timing belt into the gearbox. It's going to be a total mess.

This is just one of the mechanical issues I've been thinking about. Not to mention the whole thing depends on software which might disappear not too long after you buy it.

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Ultimate_Driving@reddit

Are you under the impression that Also is the first manufacturer to use a belt drive?

Several other manufacturers have been making belt-drive bikes for decades, and junk building up on the belt's teeth is not considered a common problem, nor is longevity.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

Actually yes I am under that impression. The Also bike is the first one I've ever seen belt driven.

I really had no idea that this has been a method of drive for a while. I am really curious as to how well they hold up in dirty situations. Now I know that there is historical data to look at.

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stormdelta@reddit

The Also bike is a very, very stupid design.

But the others are right, the belt isn't the issue. There are downsides to belts, but for some applications they can be lower maintenance. If I ever get around to building a mid-drive I plan to try using a belt drive with an IGH.

The issue is that the bike is horrendously overcomplicated for basically no reason except to trick consumers too ignorant to realize that "powering" the motor by pedaling doesn't actually make sense.

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papk23@reddit

Why does powering the motor with pedals not make any sense? Because of power loss due to conversion?

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stormdelta@reddit

That's part of it - you're converting kinetic energy to electric and then back to kinetic again for no reason, losing power to inherent inefficiency on both ends. So it's inherently less efficient than other ebikes.

More than that, it makes the entire bike ridiculous over-complicated with far more failure points for no reason. If anything goes wrong, you can't actually pedal the bike to move it like you can most ebikes.

And of course, because it's a "tech startup" the bike is stuffed to the gills with stupid software/cloud based gimmicks that add even more ways for things to go wrong, and everything is hyper custom/proprietary so they'll be the only ones that can fix it or have parts. That they'll obviously be gouging you for.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

I hear you on that issue. Just a needless inefficient conversion of energy. Definitely crossing the Also bike off my list.

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Ultimate_Driving@reddit

All I know is that people say you never have to clean or lubricate belts like we do with chains. I don't know how they keep dust and debris from accumulating though. Belts have a much better reputation for both reliability and longevity than chains do. Also, the belts don't put nearly as much wear on the gears as chains do, so even if you ride enough miles to have to replace a belt, you almost never have to replace the gears. I've never owned a belt drive bike though, mainly because belt drives aren't compatible with derailleurs, so they're usually only available on higher end road bikes or city bikes that have single speed or internally geared hubs.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

I'm guessing that you live in a city. My area is basically semi city. There are a lot of dirt introduction concerns for me. I'll be on trail sometimes.

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Ultimate_Driving@reddit

I do, but I ride on dirt trails also. I'm still not concerned about debris building up on the belt, causing failure. I also don't have a belt-driven bike, and don't have any current plans to get one. If the price is right though, I'd be open to one, next time I need to buy a bike that isn't an MTB.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

Yeah now I know. I had no idea that they are actually super reliable.

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Difficultsleeper@reddit

Gates belts are beloved for their durability and low maintenance. You have no idea what you're talking about. Do some research. Check out the Pinion mid drive from Nicolai bikes.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

Well hey man I appreciate the input. I'm going to look into those things. Maybe they Also bike ads should be a bit more technical. Because all I can see is mechanical failure.

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Difficultsleeper@reddit

Frame design wise the bike is a disaster. But that's what happens when car guys design a bike. They have no understanding of frame geometry, ergonomics, stiffness etc.

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papk23@reddit

What is it about the frame design that you think is bad? It seems very similar to many the lime-style e-bikes that are widely used.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

I'm looking to get a high-end ebike. They certainly have an offering. And they have some type of reputation. But I question their knowledge when it comes to bicycles.

I thought the frame looked overbuilt which would indicate ample stiffness. Do you have any specifics you can mention about the frame design?

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reddit_mike@reddit

I mean your entire premise is wrong here belt drives are proven systems so your lack of understanding that should probably also inform you that maybe the other assumptions being made are misinformed. In purely objective points on this bike there's 2 main unknowns. The seat mounting mechanism and drivetrain.

Seat mounting seems to be an expansion mechanism that's both a type of hook and friction fit, can't say much about how good this is going to be long term from all the videos showcasing it it seemed like it was solid but grain of salt obviously.

The drive train is the big unknown. Lots of advantages from the perspective that this will always be running on battery with regenerative capabilities. This is clearly a different mentality from pedelecs or regular bikes that try to optimize for human input efficiency. This design appears to be optimizing for motor efficiency while trying to simulate a good experience for the rider in terms of input feel.

Price wise frankly this is the strangest part $4500 seems very low for what this is so I have to assume it's being subsidized by sales of the quads and other factors.

All that said it could very much still be a flop, it's a product that's targeted at an audience that has been battered by a lot of new shinies vying for their money with a lot of flops. We'll have to see just how good it is in the end but I don't think this is a badly engineered product.

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papk23@reddit

I think one think ALSO has going for them is the bike is a relatively small part of their overall strategy. They have a couple of large contracts in place to make small quads for DD and Amazon. So even if the bike doesn’t have huge adoption, that by itself is unlikely to sink the company.

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CommercialSignal7301@reddit

It’s too unconventional and complicated for buyers used to the somewhat familiar simplicity of conventional e-bikes. All bikes eventually need service and repair: what then. Things sometimes go wrong while cycling, such as flat tires or other mechanical issues- can users do basic repairs and maintenance in the wild? I did a conversion on a regular bicycle, so I understand the basic concept of adding a motor to a bicycle, although I’m not as conversant with the electronics. This adds a several layers of complexity to what is usually a relatively basic machine. I’m sure that early adopters and tech forwards will be all over it, but once the hype dies down, what then?

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unholyrevenger72@reddit

The bikes will probably not go anywhere. The cargo quads and trikes on the other hand may have a future because of the system's ride by wire nature.

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Dangerous_Pop8730@reddit

Folks the TM-B is not meant to be the main seller, it’s a proof of concept. Just like the R1 line for Rivian or model s for Tesla. Throw everything into a bike and redefine what a bike is or can be. Also the drive by wire concept to me is solving the class 2 to 3 issue with throttle. As long as you are peddling, no matter how hard or fast, you can go at 28 mph. I hope you get it now. 🤯. Now in various interviews they talk about other features and benefits. Like regen braking and different drive modes. It basically delivers dirt bike, commuter bike and cruiser all in one package. Just change the seat and hit a button and it’s on. The concept is bold and the price point is not a lot for a dirt or mountain e-bike with the motor and battery size. Now the look, yeah interesting. But let’s see, looking at an e-bike to replace the Santa Cruz tall boy. Too old to pedal everywhere.

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beagles4ever@reddit

Why does this bike make y'all so grrrrr mad?

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stormdelta@reddit

Because it's such an obviously stupid and consumer-hostile design.

OP messed up by complaining about the belt though, that's one of the few things the bike doesn't do wrong

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beagles4ever@reddit

I have no idea what you mean by consumer hostile design. It’s new tech in an evolving marketplace . Let the manufacturers experiment - the market will decide which ones they like and which they don’t.

My guess, at a 5,000 dollar price point this will find a niche audience at best - so I wouldn’t get your knickers in a twist over it.

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stormdelta@reddit

Let the manufacturers experiment

The problem is that this is a branch of a silicon valley tech company pretending to be an ebike startup. Like nearly everything else SV touches in this manner, it's shit being pushed by a lot of marketing dollars on consumers who are too naive to understand how bullshit said marketing is.

Double-conversion of user input is inherently and excessively inefficient. It serves no purpose except to trick people who know nothing about bikes and have some vague (and very wrong) notion that you could "power" the motor by pedaling.
The ridiculous number of added electronics, failure points, and moving parts is a maintenance nightmare, especially since none of it will be fixable by the end-user

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beagles4ever@reddit

Rivian makes actual automobiles. So - a bit more than a "silicon valley tech company"

If the bike sucks, the market will sort it out soon enough just like it has with the big dumb truck that Tesla made. Early enthusiasm vanished and they're selling a fraction of expected units.

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stormdelta@reddit

Rivian makes actual automobiles. So - a bit more than a "silicon valley tech company"

I was on the fence about Rivian because as a software engineer with many years of experience, they had the stench of tech startup BS but I don't know a lot about cars so pretty much ignored them.

The Also bikes have changed that and drastically lowered my opinion of Rivian now that I have confirmation from something I do know about that my intuition was spot on.

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beagles4ever@reddit

Loads of people?

I doubt it. At 5,000 pp, it's going to be a handful of early adopter types willing to take a chance on some interesting tech. This isn't a mass-market product.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

Honest answer to your light question: I'm looking for a quality e-bike and it seems like the price of this bike doesn't match the level of engineering put into it.

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beagles4ever@reddit

Doesn’t sound like you know a lot about what goes into a quality e-bike. What we’ve seen so far is a bunch of pictures and claims (which if true would be great). I’ll reserve judgment until people have them and put in some good miles before judging the bike. I have no problem with the looks at all. In fact, 90% of e-bikes offend my aesthetic sensibilities I wouldn’t be caught dead on them. This one is at least interesting.

It looks like a modern riff on a Dutch city bike.

The price is comparable to legacy US bike makers like Specialized and Trek, 1/3rd to 1/2 less than euro-spec’d bikes and the tech is way more advanced that most of those bikes.

Front and rear suspension, charge on USB-C, use it as a power bank, 180 freaking NM of torque!!! (Twice a Specialized Turbo Vado), regen and belt drive - all premium features - the dashboard with incorporated navigation is one of the niftier things I’ve seen in a while, not to mention self- locking features, integrated lights - 1500 lumen headlight 250 lumin tail light- it’s by far the most feature rich bike we’ve seen announced.

I’d like to see someone put together a bike with these specs and price it under 5K.

Also this company has a lot of engineering experience to draw on, I highly doubt that it’ll be junk. But again, I’ll wait to see. On paper - it looks great.

I think people are highly mistaken about what it costs to make a quality bike. Those sub 2k specials - they’re cutting a lot of fucking corners.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

It's winter and I'm in wait and see mode. Looking to make my first ebike purchase. But I don't buy junk. Hopefully we'll have some good feedback by springtime. Not like I don't have many options. There are a lot of reputable brands out there. But I'm always on the lookout for the engineering underdog.

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Adorable_Wolf_8387@reddit

You've never seen a belt driven bike before?

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

No. I'm curious as to how well they handle dust and debris.

Personally, I'm aware of potential engineering solutions to address that. But from the ads I don't see those remedies on the Also bike.

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el_myco_profesor@reddit

All Zero motorcycles have belts

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

Without me going into a rabbit hole, what do you have to say about their longevity?

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Ultimate_Driving@reddit

Look up Adorjan Illes. He rode around the world on a bike that has a belt drive. I don't know if he ever had to replace the belt, or how often. But I'd assume that someone who's riding in as remote areas as him would want the most reliable components available on his bike. So, based on that alone, I wouldn't worry about the longevity of the belt or about debris accumulating on the belt or gears.

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el_myco_profesor@reddit

10k-15k miles

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sjmuller@reddit

Gates belt drive bikes have been around for nearly twenty years. They are far more resistant to dust and dirt than chain drives. Belt drives can't rust and can simply be washed with plain water. Plus, belts typically last 3-4 times longer than chains. The Also bike looks like hot garbage, but the belt drive technology is very solid.

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stormdelta@reddit

The belt isn't the issue, it's everything else. Nobody who knows anything about how bikes work would think the Also bikes are a good idea.

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stormdelta@reddit

The Also bikes are completely idiotic Silicon Valley bullshit, but the belt isn't the problem and belt-driven bikes have been a thing for quite awhile.

The issue is that the mechanical design makes zero sense and has a ridiculous number of unnecessary failure points, not to mention the double inefficiency from having to convert power multiple times for no reason.

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Capitan_Rich@reddit

its ugly as shit, but timming belts are ok, my 1995 kawasaki vulcan has one, indestructible.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

Do you think the launch of the Also bike will be a success?

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Capitan_Rich@reddit

I hope so, it's not my style of ebike, also 3500usd? i can't afford that. Y have a diy ebike mxus front 500w motor that seems a surplus of a mad max movie. Specifically to prevent it from being stolen...

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

It's the iPhone of e-bikes as far as I can see. It's definitely going to have its following. That bike is two grand of hardware tops

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MembershipUpbeat7168@reddit

I have put about 7000 miles on a belt drive specialized, and honestly the belt still look like new. It is dead quiet and requires little to no maintenance. I have ridden in wet and dry weather, when it was really hot and now quite cold. I don’t think I’ll ever go back to a traditional chain drive.

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

Wow. Thanks for the input. What are your main complaints?

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happyluckystar@reddit (OP)

I have a mechanical background but I'm not a bicycle expert. Just going by off of what I see. I don't want to drop 4 grand on something that is an experiment.