u/akahastasiempre dude, if you weren't taught Albanian history at school, then you failed at analytical thinking. The fact that we we're not the only converts make us not the only muslims of christianity, but the whole balkans as well. Killing or expelling them during wars doesn't count.
Take a hike, smart ass - I teach analytical thinking and grasping for straws while using 100% as a generalization ain’t analytical thinking or thinking at all Now bite me
Oh those poor kids will only get into logical fallacies with a teacher like that.
The logic behind your claim fails because:
1. Albanians are not 100% Muslims, even though we mostly are. -> so we can't really be literally something else of christianity if we are christians as well.
2. We are not the only converts. Hence your argument doesn't counter what I said.
3. Despite being majorly muslims we don't consider other muslims religious brothers like they usually do. Like orthodoxes also do. 😂
1. Nobody claimed Albanian citizens are 100% converts, mentioning the Bulgarian minority there PLAINLY contradicts this in itself (Analytical thinking anyone ?)
2. There are good amount of CHRISTIAN converts to Islam in Bulgaria too, besides the Turks who stayed after the liberation from the Ottomans & no one bothered them or harassed them about religion They converted for economic reasons to avoid paying taxes and are mainly in mountainous regions where living conditions were hard to make enough to pay taxes, same in Bosnia, same about most of Albania & it wasn’t because of the attractiveness of Islam (Analytical thinking for you)
3. Again and for last time Take a hike and leave my students worry about themselves 🤷🤷🤷
1. By Albanians it's obviously meant ethnic Albanians. Bulgarians and others are of course not included by default. Stop grasping straws lol. Your claim implicitly stated that, otherwise it doesn't make any sense. You said LITERALLY.
Here's some analytical thinking you can teach those kids.
2. Did you just further expanded on my point or what? 😆
3. They indeed should worry about themselves about those who teach them 🤣🤣
Also roughly 82% in 2011 census ID-ed as Albanians, while Muslim religious affiliation declared about 60% of the population (in the past it was close to 80%) - yeah, go figure it out with your “analytical thinking” Def not 100% …but quite close, huh ?😆😆😆
Now I see where all the jokes about Albanians in my country came from 😂😂😂You are quite obtuse & rather persistent in that I see🤣🤣🤣Obviously that isolation your country was in came packed with a strong Inferiority Complex which usually is expressed in delusional national Superiority Complex having the word Great in front of the country name😆😆😆Don’t worry we had that effed up Great idea for quite some time too.,Now STFU, take a hike and go study analytical thinking cause it seems you skipped on it🤣🤣🤣
Off Course the Serbs and the Greeks are close friends..... centuries the biggest enemy there was Bulgaria. It was the only reason❤️❤️.
But we love U ... Budala,'s and Malaka's
I don't think , with the exception of the first half of the 20-th century, that Bulgaria and Romania were enemies. For most part of history the 2 were neutral to each other without much interaction despite being neighbors. They became close after they became both EU members but otherwise they were 2 countries ignoring each other for hundreds of years .
The best enemies to lovers story I would say is between Romania and Turkey. With Bulgaria is more like a very competitive brotherhood. We talk shit about each other but we give each other the "proud of you, dude!" nod when it's due.
We love to say - “Look, the Romanians are ahead of us in this and that, look at how incompetent we are”, but at the same time we like trading the lead on different things and moving forward together
I don't think we have really been enemies throuought history all that much tbf.
Greece and Bulgaria on the other hand is the best example of a complete turnaround in relations from arch rivals to close allies
I would say Romania and Bulgaria are at most neutral, at least that is my impression. For sure history doesn't help (couple of areas being claimed by both countries and actually fighting over them) and Romanians won't forget that time when the Bulgarians attempted to steal the relics of Bucharest's patron saint. Besudes that, from the Romanian side we have always tended to compare ourselves with Bulgaria in terms of being the poorest EU country and looking a bit down on them because we would usually be above them in various EU stats (we would say "at least it's not as bad as in Bulgaria").
Greece and Romania have been historical allies, up until ww2, where i cant remember if they participated in the war against Greece. Other than that, i think we were friends
Well get ready to kiss goodbye your russian satellite bestfriend, because with the way US is sliding it down europe and natos throat, you lap dog greeks might have to fight against your orthodox buddies
Not 1913, but before that. Serbia and Bulgaria had a treaty regarding splitting Macedonia and Serbs had more land there than was bargained, but since Serbs didn't get any bit of Albania they settled for not releasing the territories they had conquered that were stipulated in the contract. Bulgarians attacked them for that, see Second Balkan War.
So Serbia "backstabbed" Bulgaria by not obliging with the secret agreement? Without any means of aggression, per se.
While, what do you call the battle of Bregalnica?
Let's just say everyone has built their own narrative so they don't have to process what an asshole or monster they were. Here in Romania most people are still like "what holocaust?".
It’s also interesting that the backstabbings were instigated by foreigners. 1885 it was A-H who pressured Serbia into invading Bulgaria and later threatened Bulgaria to retreat to the pre-war borders when we won. In 1913 it was pretty much the sole decision to invade rather than seek diplomatic solution of the German tsar of Bulgaria who was much more interested in larping as an eastern Roman emperor than actually caring about the interest of Bulgarians
The treaty was secret, and it involved "selling the pelt of the bear in the woods". Serbs saw it coming, and had made a separate secret treaty with Greece, that was written before the first war even ended.
Some other facets to it:
Russia backed the Serbian-Bulgarian secret agreement, and agreed to mediate any territorial disputes that arose after the war. When said dispute arose, Russia unilaterally threw in with Serbia (and Greece, and Romania) and left Bulgaria to hang. It was almost textbook realpolitik and, quite frankly, some really cowardly diplomacy on Russia's part.
There was also apparently a change of government in Serbia in between the signing of the secret agreement and the first Balkan war, which apparently severely weakened internal Serbian support for the agreement. As I recall, Serbia's official reasoning for ignoring the agreement was that Bulgaria didn't support Serbia's claim to Albania, which Serbia said invalidated the whole thing.
All in all, some very complex geopolitics.
Great power politics. They ended up pissing off and isolating Bulgaria, but they theoretically scored points with Serbia, Romania, Greece and the Ottomans while frustrating Austrian interests. Plus, there was personal bad blood between the Russian and Bulgarian tsars, and the usual arcane court politics at play.
It possibly wasn't a *smart* move to make, but no one has ever accused late-state Imperial Russia of being smart.
I want to pile on to this, because it's funny.
AFAIK Romania warned Bulgaria against starting a new war, stating it will attack Bulgaria if it did so. Bulgaria thought Russia would uphold their treaty and attack Romania, so therefore proceeded to ignore the warning - and they thought that after just recently being tricked by the Russians. Fool me once, shame on me...
Bulgaria and Serbia had a treaty provided clear and detailed clauses on who gets what territory, but Serbia decided to violate it, with the help of Greece. The Bulgarians felt betrayed, because if there had been no such agreement, we would never agree to start the war against Turkey. Under Turkish rule, the Bulgarians in Macedonia had cultural autonomy, 650 Bulgarian schools and over 700 churches. We were not in a hurry.
[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty\_Of\_Friendship\_And\_Alliance\_Between\_Bulgaria\_And\_Serbia](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty_Of_Friendship_And_Alliance_Between_Bulgaria_And_Serbia)
I seem to have struck a nerve haha. I don't hate anyone. This is a joke, chill. If we start putting one link for each conflict/war between the two countries we could do it until next year. Bulgaria would still win though.
That’s not r/balkan_irl sub tho.
Also I can “struck a nerve” if I remind you about Srebrenica genocide and say “it’s a joke”, but nobody doing it, right?
I didn’t see a single thread where Bulgarians and Serbiand are mentioned and backstabbing joke is not there. And always mentioned by Serbians, btw. I love you guys, but sometimes is annoying.
Hey neighbour, glad you feel that. As someone who grew near Danube, surrounded by serbian villages i never heard to ever been etnic conflicts and descrimination between serbians and romanians. Also i found lovely ppl when passed the border and went to Bela Crkva, Vrasac or Novi-Sad.[](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bela_Crkva)[](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bela_Crkva)
Associated by whom? You?
Great & cheap internet, vastly improved infrastructure, first per GDP in Balkan (400bil)
Bad taste in music lol? As opposed to Serbia who produces world class musicians? :)
Yeah? Toured Serbia twice, got nothing but respect from serbs. Also you’re visibly less developed than us so pipe down lmao (the public transport in Novi Sad is insane)
It's likely a bot, or one of those maga/kremlin accounts with the sole purpose of flaming and instigating. Look at [this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/comments/1nq37nv/eu_a_union_of_27_equal_member_states_also_eu/)where it compares equality with GDP of EU states. 😂
Wow! Bro, that’s a lot of compliments. Get your head out of your ass, and come visit us. I’m pretty sure, you’re going to change your mind about Romania. We accept the memes because they are funny, and we are funny people. Love from Romania!!!
So their problems are internal and not something they make into other people's problems?
As a Korean, we would also consider our neighbor (China) more favorably if they didn't export so many of their problems to us. Give us a land border with Romania a hundred times before you give us a sea border with China.
yeah it is but not as them being necessarily bad neighbors to serbs or doing anything “bad” historically (as opposed to the same memes about bulgarians but with the addition of backstabbing haha)
It is memed (ironic considering how many of our peoole go to Timisoara with the express reason of buying cheap shit), but we don't have any beef with them for the sole reason that we were never at war and they helped us during the NATO bombing campaign by smuggling us fuel and at times sabotaging NATO in small ways (the people, not the government). All the Romanian people I've met so far have been nothing short of pleasant, good people, and view out peoples as great old friends (despite the ruthless memeing, which comes with being friends tbf).
Romania and Serbia have always had friendly relations. Same religion and similar culture. We didn’t invade Yugoslavia during WW2 along with the other Axis powers and we smuggled them fuel while the Americans were bombing them during the Yugoslav Wars. There’s a Romanian saying. In our history, we’ve had two good neighbors. Serbia and the Black Sea.
I always had great experiences in Romania, even when I don't mention I amfrom Serbia. And you have a beautiful country and culture, I enjoy visiting every time. Of all the Balkan countries, every part of Romania feels like home to me.
Same, I had a great time in Belgrade and people were friendly. I’m hoping to visit Novi Sad and Belgrade again soon. Also worth mentioning, I only saw mugs with Putin and Ceausescu in Romania and Serbia, so I think we have similar tastes in humor as well.
Historically yes, especially during the first half of the 20th century. We were at war during the Second Balkan War in 1913 and during WW1. But I don’t feel there are any animosities now between Romania and Bulgaria.
But never engaged in to the war with Serbia or Yugoslavia. Romania only joined AXIS as it was afraid the Hungary and Bulgaria will invade them and take land.
Even within the Serbian empire Greeks had a special status. Greek was the official language, and Greeks were equals to Serbians by law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece–Serbia_relations
For sure Greeks were still liked then, the empire was in general heavily influenced by Byzantium and adopted a lot of their traditions. I'm not so sure the Greeks liked us tho
Believe me compared to others you are great.
You could have taken a part of Banat or whatever but you still tried to retain good relationship with Serbs and Serbia.
True brotherly people, Serbs will never forget that.
The current state of Serbia has existed for 20 years. Among Balkan countries, Greece is in a military alliance with Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania and Slovenia. Greece is in a supra-national union with most of those (all except Macedonia and Albania). These EU countries all have free movememt, and all except Romania use the Euro.
In other words, Greece has much closer ties with most Balkan countries (actual allies of Greece, btw) than it has ever had with modern Serbia, which is not and has not been an allied country.
Fun fact: in the summer 2025 i went on a Balkan tour and surprisingly you guys were (both Serbians and Greeks) less racist to us than Bosnians. I was shocked when i first saw it
you would be suprised whos more racist towards your ethnicity irl, from my experience people from montenegro have been more racist towards me than greeks or serbs
Mostly a joke, but Montenegro is super chill and safe. I had a danish friend traveling solo for a week. She had a great time and everyone was helpful and kind.
I currently reside in Greece due to my job and frequently visit Serbia too. When I tell people my nationality, either I get guest treatment with utmost hospitality or the worst case scenario people act indifferent and move on with their days.
In 8+ years of visiting these two countries frequently, I only encountered actual racists twice. 2 among thousands that I interacted with.
In return, I respect their culture, their rules and their ways. I try my best to fit in and I admire what they have.
Getting off the internet and not taking 15 year-old ultra nationalist keyboard warriors seriously helps a lot with how real people see others.
The feelings towards Turks are really complicated in Greece.
On the one hand, most Greeks really enjoy the similarities between us and there are trully MANY similarities.
On the other hand, Ottoman Empire, "gavurs", Pontic genocide "that didn't happen, but if it happened they deserved it", Smirni, 1955 pogroms (which we didn't retaliate btw.), Cyprus, Mavi Vatan, Agia Sofia "mosque" etc. I can keep the list going forever, but you get the idea.
Honestly I traveled to the the islands between Greece and Turkey this summer and yall were both Hella chill and respectful the only time someone made a scene was when 2 French guys were arguing with some Italians . The truth is the people like each other the governments dont
for decades under communist rule there was heavy propaganda against Turkiye in Yugoslavia, anything bad done in previous centuries by muslims of any ethnicity was blamed on turks for the sake of keeping unity in Yugoslavia and nobody local being the bad guy even when they were
this in term led to right leaning people to have a positive image of Turkiye because communists(the left) were pushing so hard against them
Except the Turks. And the Albanians. And the North Macedonians. And the Bulgarians. And the Romanians. And the Greeks. Damned Greeks, they ruined Greece.
I totally agree and again when the fuck did Serbians and Greeks love each other based exclusively on nationality xD its usually the only reason that balkan ppl could use to hate someone they didn’t even meet :D
I live in Vojvodina. I have orthodox friends, catholic friends, protestant friends. Even some of our neighbours here up north are muslim and they're some of the best neighbours we've got.
So religion doesn't change much.
It was my understanding that Serbs and Albanians hate each other's guts and that each side would commit a Holocaust on the other if they had the opportunity.
Serbia and Romania. Romanians supposedly have a saying that their only friends are the Forest, the Black Sea and the Serbs. We were never in war, always on the same side of the conflicts, always had each others back, never disputed over boarders and there are both minorities in the other country.
Ahhh there’s always that one. I’m sure it was all for no good reason and they just did it out of no where. Way to come in here and make it about what the post isn’t about
Yes it was because of hate and greed and secular intent of course otherwise why would you kill pregnant women and point blank executions of civilians? I’m sure a German wouldn’t hate to point out German Nazis committed the holocaust and would feel bad about it not like you though!
You do realize Albanians and Bosnians killed Serbians on mass right ? Why do you act as if their hands are clean? It amazes me how you just broadly painted Serbians as mass killers and generalized a whole population. Again no one talked about hate until you brought up something that has nothing to do with the post. I can wreck you all day with facts about how Serbs got it 10x worse than what he handed out but you’re not ready for that.
Seriously? You sound like a holocaust denier just now when the whole worlds knows what crimes committed by the Serbs against the Muslim Bosnians and Albanians! Your people created one of the worst crimes in the 90s and the whole would confirmed it as a fact just like the holocaust. Don’t tell me you think the Jews and gypsies deserved the holocaust too and it was excusable?
It's a rare occasion, for sure. But Albanians love the Turks a lot aswell. To the extent that they would even call themselves such in the past.
Although, Turks do not belong in the Balkans, or even Anatolia, so Idk if they really count as a Balkan country.
And then you have Serbia and Montenegro. They're the same people, so it's likely that they love eachother, I assume.
Really? You have love... for us?
This is the first time I'm seeing something like this in my lifetime. Usually, I see Albanians saying that not only do they want to keep Northern Epirus but to take Southern Epirus aswell. So perhaps not all are like this I guess...
Of course not. What I mean is that if you assume that we love Turks because we would call ourselves such, then the same logic applies for Arvanites that call themselves Greek today
I am talking about how back when Albania first became independent from the Turks, I've seen a quote, I think by Otto von Bismarck but I'm not sure, saying that 3/4 of the people living there would answer "I'm a Turk, elhamdullilah" if asked for their national identity.
Of course though, I'm not trying to insult you or call you a Turk or anything. And I appreciate your love for Greece. I'm just talking about what I've heard on this part of history.
That is so wrong in every letter… just because some asswholes say they love Turkey… Albanian never had a love sentiment about turks… in everyday we are live and let live but with Serbia and Greece we have a fixation of no friendship for all the land they stole and how they treated our people in their territory…
Anyway, my point of view is as Balkans we have to be looking to the future, have an eye to the past (to not get screwed again) but looking to the future is the only way we can live in peace in the Balkans and somehow let corruption behind, making this amazing region with awesome culture and a lot of heritage we share, a bit less underdeveloped of what it is
"Romania's best neighbours are Serbia and the Black Sea"
I don't remember any conflicts of any type between Serbia and Romania either but I might be wrong
Lol. In the middle ages the Romanians were always on the side of the Bulgarians, even when fighting the Serbs.
Romania and Serbia became neighbors as punishment for hungary after all. Nothing to fight over.
Lol. In the middle ages, everyone was ally and enemy with everybody. Serbia and Romania never had conflicts because of no serious territorial overlap and both were often focused on survival against larger empires.
Not true. The middle ages, in which Serbia participated only for about 100 years, were full of long-lasting alliances.
History looks chaotic to a Serb, because the Serbs were helping the ottomans. Big orthodox boys they were.
Ghats why I typed North Macedonia once, and Macedonia once again just to make a balance between my Greek and my N.Macedonian friends hahaha, best way not to offend anyone 🤣
Serbs and Greeks fought against each other in pre-Ottoman times, but since then are pretty much always on either great or neutral-good terms. Also, in all the wars that came after that, we were allies, which can't be said for our other relations.
Idk if any other comparison can be made to Greece-Serbia tbh, even if our relations go colder, it will go down as one of the best (if not THE best) mutual respect relations in the Balkans.
Greece opposed NATO during the war, providing info to Yugoslavia. Greek positions are also clear regarding Kosovo. Add the religion as well and its difficult to find a more robust balcan friendship.
Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece can and should work closely together in favour of our region.
>Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece can and should work closely together in favour of our region.
All relations here work well except for Serbia-Bulgaria, so once that is sorted out, [Craiova group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craiova_Group) should truly focus on larger cooperation (can't reach the full potential due to the fact that Serbia will never join EU I guess)
Beside Greece we also love (North) Macedonia, Romania…& let’s be fair - Bosnia, Montenegro (mostly because lots of Serbs are living in these countries)
I have worked a lot between BiH, NMK and Albania. Duringa training, a foreign trainer (from the states) seeing Croats, Macedonians and Serbs understanding each other asked if they speak the same language. One of my Serb friends, and colleagues answered yes, they are practically the same language with some differences in pronunciation… she took Hvala as an example… after showing both examples, she continued with the above mentioned expressions…
I would bet they do not talk about that in front of the one the joke is about. Would you tell a joke to the main character of the joke?
Frankly that’s what I do all the time Most outrageous example is when I went to tell a Holocaust joke to my client, a 103 yrs old Psychiatrist Professor from Mass General & delivering lectures in Harvard but American Jew, nothing to do with the Holocaust-my father OTOH was a Holocaust survivor so there’s that too😆😆😆
Surely that one person doesn't represent the whole Serbia. Plus I doubt they care that much since they have better things to worry about. And yeah actually I think people would tell the joke to the main character of the joke, since I've heard other jokes from our neighbors like a thousand times and yet I've never seen a Serb say anything like that lol. These sneaky Serb must be conspiring against Macedonians in some hidden chamber so we don't hear
🤣🤪
Look. I can also call the Albanians in NMK Albanians with language disorder, as among all Albanians in MNE, KOS, or South Serbia, the ones in NMK are the ones less understandable between Albanians
Oh God, Albaninas are going to have a field day here trying to find some 600 year old issue between Greeks and Serbs.
Thats being said, Serbs have Greeks and Romaninas as brotherly nations considered by wast majority of people here. In my almost 50 years, I never heard someone saying bad things about them even when sports were in question.
Leave the 2nd Balkan War alone - it was everyone and their aunt against my tribe, the Bulgarians-yeah, every mf and they were joined even by the Ottomans who kept the Balkans under yoke for centuries Tough luck - we stood our ground and got back S Dobroudja from the Romanians. West Outskirts remained in Serbia tho Well, now they and many Macedonians have Bulgarian passports & double citizenship Makes them EU citizens too. Same goes about the Bessarabia Bulgarians in 🇺🇦🤷🤷🤷
Serbias friends with anybody until they get a chance to envade land. They still have nationalists calling us south serbs and were planning on attacking macedonia after bosnia and croatia in the war. This isnt a theory, its a fact.
Also common occurance is macedonian singers being invited to sign contracts in serbia but only if they translate all the songs they sing, they dont want to be listening to macedonian music. The friendliness we see is artificial.
Can you tell me more about these contracts? I doubt it's because they don't want to hear Macedonian music but because of marketing reasons. Serbian is also understood more in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro than Macedonian is and could attract more people from those countries. In a lot of Serbian shows on television the Macedonians I see sing Macedonian and speak Macedonian to them. I could be wrong though and they just make people sing Serbian or something
As for the nationalists, do you know how many times I've heard someone call me South Serb? Never. Do you know how many times I've heard West Bulgarian? Too many. The most I've been harassed was by Greeks, followed by Bulgarians and to a smaller extent Albanians. I think I do naturally just gravitate towards the one who doesn't harass me while the others are saying that we're some subhumans. Obviously Serbs aren't angels and some of them do think of us as South Serbs, they've done awful things to us in the past but compared to these other neighbors they're the kindest and I've personally never had a problem with them and I'm friends with some of the ones who live here. We really don't have another option
Brat, znam. Serbia is the closest thing to a friend we got on surface level interractions, so we cling on to them. The only option as you said. But it can be minimal, instead of forced false brotherhood.
Serbia has done more physical harm to us than bulgaria and greece since 1913. The horrors of 1920-1940 are unimaginable. There was a village who retialiated and was turned into a blood bath with women hanging from all the banderi, kids burned alive in ovens for stealing bread. Tehy were just as It stopped, 50 years of utter peace went by, youd say the people changed. Then they did even worse in the early 90's wars, it wasnt just soldiers with a bad moral compas but war crimes planned out on a systemic level, they had rape camps of thousands of men who never stepped foot on a battle field and whos sole purpose was raping and tormenting women. Babies cut up and forcefed to their mothers. Otherwise peaceful neighbors who one day, all of a sudden turned around and said we will kill you all. This happened just 25 fucking years ago dude. From their history we know even 50 years of peace dont mean anything, let alone 25 when most of those violent murdered and rapists are alive and ACTIVELY celebrated, 95% unpunished, one of the majour generals is a fricking DJ in belgrade. You cant count on "its in the past and things are changed" cause we really wouldnt know.
90% of houses in kosovo were damaged after the war, thats a statistical fact. We were 🤏 THIS close to going through the same thing and thats not a theory. Documentation was found that they were planning to invade macedonia after finishing off the other wars, with the help of GREECE. We were next and if they had it their way we wouldnt exist right now. Realising that shook my bones hahah. They are friendly but are biggest threat to our borders in decades.
If they go to war again they will target us again, republika srpska still exists and it recently threatened starting a war in bosnia.
One thing about serbs is that while the average person may not have something against you, they wont care when their government and people harm you either.
If you learn about it more, you will be baffled because its unbelievable and shit bordering nazis. The things they did in kosovo and bosnia are so gruesome that even if its 100% serbian land, but they had a conscience, they would be completely and utterly ashamed of ever mentioning it. But instead they are just as hateful and loud as greeks are towads us. Personally i wouldnt get too comfortable and brotherly with individuals like that.
So... be friends with serbs but the brotherhood shit is completely fake and macedonians like them way too much and suffer from srbomania. We have macedonians who wave serbian flags, listen solely to serbian music, cheer for serbian sports teams before macedonian ones. The GOVRNEMENT in kumanovo allowed SERBIAN DELEGATES TO CELEBRATE THE DAY THEY OCCUPIED MACEDONIA IN 1913. PRETSTAVNICI OD VLADA CELEBRATED WITH THEM. In the vevcani carneval maceodnians dressed up as serbian souldiers, waved their flag and paraded on the streets.
Igor dzambazov spoke on this on a podcast/interview, how macedonians suck up to serbs and (especially trashy) serbian influence in music too much, when macedonian singers in serbia are rejected for singing in macedonian. Not that i like bulgarians but he compared how even in bulgaria you can at least use your own language as a singer. They dont completley understand macedonian either but somehow for them its not a marketing problem? Yeah right
Are you not friends with Serbia? News to us, we love you guys. But I understand it may be a one way street (I made some macedonian friends and had one of their friends be hostile towards me for being serbian.. )
Hostile to Serbians?? Never heard anyone be hostile to you guys. Maybe they were Albanians from MKD? Most people see Serbia as our best friends. I was more alluding to centuries old, #1 best friends haha. But yes we are friends with Serbia
I highly doubt that honestly Serbia is our friend. For example they didn’t recognised our church until very recently until we basically recognise their supremacy over our church. It was just Gligorov that saved us from having a direct war with them. I dont trust them a bit. Wait if we disagree on some issue as we do with bulgarians and see how friendly they will be.
Maybe. But I think that if we were gonna have a disagreement about something we would've had it by now. We have one with like all of our neighbors, what's one more?
Modern Bulgaria has nothing to do with the founding of our state - maybe check who your father is before raising any “fathers” - look at that big church in the middle of Sofia and who it’s dedicated to
As a Macedonian we definitely have friends. In terms of neighbours, we love all of the ex-Yugoslav countries, Turkey, and Albania. It’s only Bulgaria and Greece that haven’t been friendly towards us and so we’ve distanced ourselves. Greece has also been warming up to us since the agreement of 2019 so it’s really only Bulgaria at this point that isn’t our friend.
On a political level that's true, but on a person level it depends. I've had more pleasant interactions with Bulgarians. I mean if you ask me the concept of people liking each other because of their nationality while other ones are enemies because of their nationality is pretty stupid, we all pretty much share most of the same everyday life. Nobody is asking moisthotdogg on Reddit though. I hope one day we all consider each other brothers regardless of where in the balkans we come from instead of that rule only applying when we see each other in Germany or something
I mostly agree with you. I think politics still plays a major role in how we see each other though. I live in Canada and have met only a handful of Bulgarians here. All of them had some perceived notions or discriminatory views of Macedonians and where we come from. They would say “friendly” things to me such as “were the same people” or “we speak the same language”. Now if a Croatian said this to me I wouldn’t think twice about it, but a Bulgarian saying this, given the current political situation and how they regard us, I take offence.
Yeah I agree. But I think those people are exactly the ones who tend to favor nationalities and are still hung up on things that happened like 500 years ago. I think it will fade with better politicans, but unfortunately none of us ever seem to get them and instead we tend to focus on who are our enemies and who are our friends, and it isn't something easily fixable this current age. I'm sure with time people will stop acting like that
Why the hate?
There is no progress with hate
Us balkans are so strong willed we cannot move past certain issues
All balkan nations of Christian faith should unite and not harbour resentment
I was born in R. Macedonia now N. Macedonia
Personally I don't hate any country it's more the political and politicians that I dislike
General consensus we like the Serbs and Turks, we feel indifferent to the Greeks
We are obliged to tolerate the Albanians
There is little to no feeling to the Bulgarians
Let me simplify this for you:
Germany–Austria = same people, same language, same culture/ tradition two states
Albania–Kosovo = = same people, same language, same culture/ tradition two states
That’s how modern borders work
Germany-Austria = Next to no existing desire for unification.
Albania-Kosovo = Many, including me, would be willing to give their lives for unification.
That literally has nothing to do with what we’re discussing here but ok lol …. Borders are defined by law and recognition, not by how passionately someone feels on the internet…
So a question. Is there a country that likes Albania? That isn’t Albanian populated?
We are very much a polarising country, and I get that, considering our resent history. But… we still have countries we have strong bonds with, and who are considered traditional allies.
Do you have any allies that aren’t just formally involved with you cuz of some international cooperation?
First of all countries can't like each other.
Second of all the only reason you are liked by greeks is because you completely submerged into their religion to the point of it being your identity.
If we are gonna apply that same logic, then it's probably the turks who view us in a positive light. We on the other hand view them neutrally.
Third of all, we have used religion only to our benefits. Why should I go and fight an Albanian only because he is of different religion like yugoslavs do?
Fourth of all, why should I care if outsiders like us or not?
Not really. I just never heard anything about your country in regard to this particular post.
So I wondering do you really not have any nation that has positive sentiment towards you beyond neutrality.
That's why I said, go ask the countries. It's not wise to make assumptions based on lack of knowledge.
>So I wondering do you really not have any nation that has positive sentiment towards you beyond neutrality.
I think it's better if you wonder about some english courses for thyself.
I don’t think so. You answered my simple question by giving your opinion on our relations with Greece, and then by choosing to focus on Turkey of all countries, (which is depressing for you considering everything, honestly, and especially that the post is about the countries that are traditional allies and “love each other”, by OP’s words), as an example of a country that has a positive view of you.
Then proceeded to declare you don’t care what outsiders think of Albania, on a post that discusses that very subject.
Yes, that comment was embarrassing.
I explained that I don't believe in love of countries but only on interests.
You are "friends" with greece because you made their religon your core identity and only since the last 2 centuries.
You know that serbs helped ottomans sackle constantinople back then, right?
>which is depressing honestly, considering everything, and especially that the post is about the countries that are traditional allies and “love each other”, by OP’s words
Why should it be depressing? And you making someone's else religion your core identity is what? Admirable? 😂 you just subjugated to greeks.
>Then proceeded to declare you don’t care what outsiders think of Albania, on a post that discusses that very subject.
Yeah, I gave my opinion that something like that doesn't exist. It's just interests that unite countries. Not the fact that you all romanticize religion in a cringe way.
It’s a cop out answer because you actually don’t have any genuine allies who hold positive sentiments towards you. If you did, your answer would likely be different.
It’s depressing because you would equate Serbia’s relationship with Greece, with your relationship with Turkey. They probably have ten countries they feel a certain kinship with before even thinking of Albania, and more importantly it’s depressing because they oppressed you for so long, yet it’s the only country you think to point out as an example of good sentiment. Sad.
The part of your answer about our religion is a word vomit that I won’t even get into. Maybe being a Muslim country you are not as knowledgeable about Christianity and Christian countries.
>It’s a cop out answer because you actually don’t have any genuine allies who hold positive sentiments towards you. If you did, your answer would likely be different.
There is nothing to cope about. You are just delusional if you think countries are allies due to genuine positive feelings.
>It’s depressing because you would equate Serbia’s relationship with Greece, with your relationship with Turkey. They probably have ten countries they feel a certain kinship with before even thinking of Albania, and more importantly it’s depressing because they oppressed you for so long, yet it’s the only country you think to point out as an example of good sentiment. Sad.
Can you even read? I explicitly said that we have neutral feelings towards Turkey. We don't care about their feelings towards us. You also got oppressed by christians before you succumbed to their religion. By that logic your situation is depressing too. At least we used those religions to our benefit and not to kill other Albanians.
>The part of your answer about our religion is a word vomit that I won’t even get into. Maybe being a Muslim country you are not as knowledgeable about Christianity and Christian countries.
It's not a word vomit. It's the truth. There are orthodoxes and catholics living here. We are not a muslim country. When you are so uneducated why do you continue embarrassing yourself?
Albanians generally stick out a bit from the crowd.
From my understanding, Bosniaks and Albanians have pretty good relations. I don’t think the average Croatian cares too much about Albanians but politically, we’re doing quite well.
The thing is, we neither share linguistic traits (like Slavs for instance) nor religion (Albanians don’t strongly identify with religion, it’s essentially ”just there”).
All of our neighbors are orthodox, while some of us are, it’s again not the core of our identity. And many of us being Muslims (at least by name) also doesn’t help.
Yes, and also fought Ottomans at Siege of Vienna in 1529, Serbian hussars under the command of Pavle Bakić were part of Austrian army and were the first to engage.
absolutely lol. Even Serbian love towards Russia is not cause we love Russians (actually, now that Russians migrated here people are starting to really hate them) but because a lot of nationalist Serbs are convinced Russia will magically defeat the USA and EU and Nato and give us Kosovo and Republika Srpska back lol.
Which is quite hilarious given the fact Russia who owned NIS didn't even wanna sell it back to us cause the USA sanctioned it and we got into massive trouble, but decided to sell it to MOL (Hungary) instead.
Nationalist Serbs are that dumb to think Russia would ever help us with something as huge as territory retrieval while they didnt even wanna sell us OUR OWN oil company back FOR OVER THE MARKET PRICE.
Yup. That is honestly such a sad, messed up story. For one: selling the controlling packet of shares in something as strategically important as your only oil company and your only refinery to anyone, should've been treated as the treason it really is. Our former prime minister Ivo Sanader who did just that in return for a meager 10 million euro bribe - pathetic really considering that the sum in question was below pocket change relative to the damage he did to the country, was in prison for that in addition to two other crimes. One of the other two crimes is a typical balkan sh*t - transferring a portion of the public companies' profits into an HDZ ( the ruling party) slush fund. The third one was another typical balkan BS - failure to record and put into the state treasury gifts over a certain, mostly symbolic value, he as the prime minister and the president of a ruling party had received.
The latter two felony charges included not just him but also a bunch of his government co-conspirators.
Anyhow, if you've ever heard a Croatian say; we are ruled by a sentenced criminal organization - this is why, and in large part it's not just some venting exaggeration.
Sanader was actually granted an early release on parole just this last year, having served 16 out of his 18 year prison sentence. Opinions on whether or not even those 18 years were a long enough sentence are mixed, so I'll leave that open to your interpretation.
Secondly and directly connected to it: If Croatia and Serbia had better relations, as they definitely SHOULD have - for purely pragmatic reasons if nothing else, you could've learned on our example. Additionally, we have been warning you - albeit in roundabout ways via experts, businessmen and former government ministers in relevant sectors such as Davor Štern for example - altogether understandable since of course the government itself couldn't just straight come out and say it. I'm sure your government has received those warnings, but I don't know whether or not your media reported on them. Instead, Vucic in his typical fashion (guess he can't help himself or something) had to criticize us for shutting off JANAF as soon as the sanctions had come into effect. As if another few days would've meant...well, anything really.
Now you are in an even worse position than we are, because MOL who's truly a dirty player, has control over your oil industry as well, and to a higher extent because you have no leverage over them whatsoever. We at least have JANAF, the Omišalj LNG terminal, and the gas pipelines - they're currently being extended into Slovenia through another route and to BiH.
Furthermore, Hungary has gotten a one year extension to import crude from Russia at significantly lower prices - thus Russia and Hungary have secured their interests, while at the same time both of them throwing you under the bus so the Americans could secure their "national interests" too. That's why the terms of the deal were very precise and although Hungary did get the 1 year extension, it pertains only to Hungary...and for some reason to Slovakia whose oil industry also happens to be owned by the Hungarian MOL group. This despite the fact that, just like Croatia, Slovakia is an EU member and has sanctions imposed on Russia. Serbia is not an EU member, does not have sanctions against Russia in place AFAIK, yet both by the EU and the US, you're viewed more strictly than Slovakia.
The result: your oil industry will be controlled by Hungary, owned by Hungary and the UAE - the Serbian state share gets even smaller - de facto symbolic, and just you specifically may only get crude from JANAF. No trucks, no shipping down the Danube.
Btw, Hungary basically completely destroyed our refinery in Sisak. Even the oil pumped out there, is being sent to the Hungarian refinery to be processed, while it took them 15 years to upgrade the large refinery in Rijeka and put it into operation.
Ironically, both Hungary and Slovakia behave as Russian puppets - it isn't just rhetoric anymore. And...especially when it comes to Slovakia - no consequences.
Serbia bears not even the brunt of the pressure, but all of it from 3 sides; the EU, the US and Russia.
The point is, sitting on 2 or 3 chairs - the Vucic's version of neutrality, doesn't work. He's not Tito with that sort of charisma, plus even Tito wasn't doing it to the same extent, even tho his circumstances were geopolitically far more favorable.
In my opinion, you should choose the EU, especially now that we're decoupling from the US.
I agree with everything you said, word for word. It was suspicious to me form the beginning why Putin would rather sell NIS to MOL than back to Serbia for a hefty sum even. I understand now thanks to your comment exactly why he did that.
Vucic's policy of sitting on three chairs is not about him wanting to be Tito, he knows he cant and he knows he isnt, its about simply getting as much money for himself as possible. Better to have 3-4 buyers of anything than just one. And EU itself is not a big buyer because it doesnt necessarily want to dirty its hands the way the USA, Russia, China and UAE do on a daily basis. That's why he's doing his best to move away from EU asap, but he cant do even that properly because he, and by extension, we, drastically depend on EU's economic help.
Just mess all over the place.
Yeah, I get what Vucic is doing...I just tried to use Tito as an analogy, but analogies rarely work, so it's good you pointed that out.
All in all, that really is one big mess. A mess which sadly will be nearly impossible to get out of once the agreement is signed. Meanwhile Vucic eats burek with Orban in Subotica, all proud of himself for selling his country out yet again, in a part of Serbia Orban has within the Hungarian borders on that map in his office. The whole thing is a real life caricature.
True.
What's even better, is that there were more Greeks OUTSIDE the walls, helping the Ottomans than there were inside, defending the city from them.
Also many of the Greeks inside the walls refused to go to the walls and fight.
To be fair to them though, it was very tough times and it wasn't obvious at all what "the right choice" was.
It's easy for us to judge them 600 years later from the comfort of our couches and with retrospective knowledge of how the Ottoman Empire played out.
The "trashing" is/was on Muslims in general, regardless of their language / ethnicity.
They were simply perceived as traitors.
Many Greeks converted to Islam. The Orthodox Greeks refused to even recognise those converts as Greeks. They called them Turks and either killed them or expelled them to Turkey.
The "Turko"-Cretans" were Muslim Greek Cretans. None of them spoke Turkish.
The "Turko"-Cypriots were Muslim Greeks and Maronites. Only few of them spoke Turkish pre 1974. Most of them spoke Greek.
Same reasoning for the Albanians. The Orthodox Albanians (aka. Arvanites) were loved and perceived as Greeks even if some of them didn't even speak Greek.
The Muslim Albanians were hated and derogatorly reffered to as "Turk"-Albanians.
The Muslim Gypsy were called "Turko"-Gypsy. They didn't speak a word of Turkish.
The Serbs used to call the Bosniaks "Turks".
The Armenians still call the Azeris "Turks" and don't exactly like them.
etc. etc. You get the idea.
Yeah yeah. I was reffering to the ones within Greece.
Fun fact on that though.
Up until the Albanian national awakening (I believe is what you call it in English) in the late 19th century, all Orthodox Albanians were reffered to as "Greeks", even the ones outside Greece.
They switched to identifying as "Albanians" from the awakening onwards.
But regardless, my initial point stands. It was a matter of religion, not a matter of ethnicity/language.
Well, unless your mother is 200 years old, she was born after the Albanian national awakening, so of course she doesn't call herself Greek.
Why would she ?
I don't think so. Turks called Balkans as Rumelia. Arnavut is a derivation of Arvanit. In our history books though, it was stated that Ottomans tried to wipe off our identity by identifying muslims as Turks and christians as Greeks, but we both know by now that is some 19th century narrative hyped by communists because it sounded convenient.
From what I understand, in terms of the Balkans Greeks have been friendly with Serbia and Romania for decades. Romania did expell Greeks during communism but literally no Greek cares about this. We also have strong trade (cargo and energy) with Romania and they bring tons of money during Summer, which is nice.
We have also developed a friendship with Bulgaria in the last 15-20 years or so, with common ports, infrastructure, military training together, open borders etc. which will probably last for at least the next century or so. At the very least, we'll definitely be on the same side on WW3, which if you know Greek-Bulgarian history is a major achievement.
Greece is neutral with Montenegro, Croatia and Bosnia, with whom we never had any issues but no close ties either. We also are neutral towards Kosovo with normalized ties but we haven't recognized them to not piss off Serbia. I think Croatia and Montenegro don't even know Greece exists, it's that neutral. We never had issues. We have some trade with both but that's it.
Greece is wary towards North Macedonia for obvious reasons, and have recently become uneasy toward Albania due to the minority disputes on both sides. I think our relationship with North Macedonia is actually better than the one with Albania at the moment. It's not hostile, but I doubt we'll ever get along with either. They hate us, and we acknowledge it but I don't think Greece cares enough to fix it, unfortunately. It's a shame because Greeks in Greece get along well with Albanians but it is what it is. They view is like we view Turkiye I think.
Which brings me to Turkiye. We hate each other, at least on a national level. No two ways about this, Greece and Turkiye will never, ever get along. It doesn't matter how much we like each other when we hang out, or how similar we are, or even how much we want to avoid war. Conflict between us is imminent and inevitable. I can only pray we'll be on the defensive when that was happens. The only thing that scares me more than Turkish expansionism is Greek arrogance.
I didn't forget Slovenia. The majority of Greeks draw the Balkans at the extent of Croatia. No offense, but historically Slovenia wasn't considered Balkan in Greece. It was actually news to me when I joined the sub years ago and saw Slovenia included. I'd love to meet a Slovenian femboy one day, hopefully Schengen will come into play for this diplomatic success.
Any island greek people were always friendly towards me when I went there on vacation during the summer. Kefalonia was such a great place to visit, people enjoy extra sun, sea and beautiful beaches, eating their home grown veggies, ouzo with tzatziki and greek salad the history rich small cities that are so peaceful, the scenic roads and wild goats everywhere lol. People forget that we all here are truly blessed to live in such a peaceful, history rich and gorgeous nature whether it is mountains, islands, sea and beaches or ancient cities that were once the cradle of modern civilization. Yasas my friend and to all greek bros and sisters ✌️
While I agree in principle with your sentiment, the good relations between citizens do not translate to good national relations.
Greeks and Turks also get along incredibly well, even abroad where the diaspora is ultra racist. And yet, despite our good relations the countries are seemingly always at the brink of conflict.
We shared a border at multiple points, N.Macedonia was ours for both world wars. Afterwards, when the nation of N.Macedonia was created, the capitol of the overall country was in Belgrade but that doesnt count but still.
I think its more so when you dont share populations, we have no greeks and they have no serbs pretty much.
What are you talking about ?
Macedonia was not created. Simply because our country was occupied that doesn’t mean that we were created ? So by that logic was “ serbia “ created in 2006 ? Makes 0 sense. Start using logic instead of drugs
Sorry, to be specific, the nation state of Macedonia, at the time SR Macedonia. Before that it was basically just part of Serbia, with intense Serbification as we were basically just trying to assimilate you as us. You didn't like it very much. But your other choice was becoming Bulgarian, which I can guess how you feel about it.
Ultimately, many just decided to back the communists in WW2 against both of us and put together an assembly with them, founding what became modern Macedonia. [Anti-fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fascist_Assembly_for_the_National_Liberation_of_Macedonia)
It absolutely was. That's largely what the Second Balkan War was about and why Bulgaria hates us to this day. [Second Balkan War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Balkan_War)
I don't recall Serbia and Montenegro hating each other. Maybe the politicians push some narrarives, but people really like each others. I've never met a Serbian person who had any animosity toward us. I feel like us from Montenegro vibe with pretty much everyone. We're very diverse, we have substantial Albanian and Muslim population. Maybe that's why, we're used to a peaceful coexistence. Something I'm extremely proud of.
That was Yugoslavia, another country to be honest, Tito was supporting communism in Greece while the UK supported the king, so the relationship was a little bit different.
Romania really has beef with one country, and one country **only**: Russia.
13 invasions in the last two centuries, over 90 tons of treasury gold stolen and the list could get quite long. At least now we can get back at them by supporting Ukraine with everything we can, including the [second largest logistics hub](https://www.uawire.org/nato-to-open-second-ukraine-arms-supply-hub-in-january-2026) dedicated to Ukraine in NATO, the largest one being in Poland.
Who made you think that you need to pay for that? No sane russian would want a border with romania or poland either, it's a geopolitical stress. The best for russia is a weak ukrainian puppet state, just like belarus, and they're moving towards that.
What is a sane Russian and will one ever become president?
You have been told Russia has no borders and you chose not to listen. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38093468
In 2013 you would have said Russia will not take Ukrainian territory. In 2021 you would have said Russia will not try a full scale invasion either.
F Russia and C Georgescu.
No, an annexation in Crimea was very possible, due to the big russian population there. Same goes for Donetsk and Luhansk, and some other territories occupied right now.
Now, a sane russian would judge things like this: to incorporate Ukraine into Russia is very hard and consuming. Why wouldn't they incorporate Belarus into Russia, because they can do it anytime? It's easier to manage a puppet state than to incorporate it. Ukraine won't be incorporated into Russia because not even the russians want this.
You've ignored his question twice
Russia also already borders Poland and they will border them even more when they absorb Belarus. It's a constant through history, doesn't matter if they're Tsarist or Soviet, Russia wants its old imperial borders back.
Nope. Ukraine has some territory that used to be owned by Romania. Even before Putin's invasion of Ukraine I never considered Romania should claim that land back.
I hear of discontent over Romanian aid sent to Ukraine. Rotten brains.
True, there have been some disagreements in the past 20 years with Ukraine, mainly over romanian langiage speaker rights in Ucraine, over some Danube Delta disputes. Even snake Island dispute (i.e this was Romanian territory before the WWII, but was NOT stipulated in the peace agreement as a land to be taken away. And then the USSR gave it to Ukraine), which influenced the rights of dividind the Black Sea continental platform and offshore drilling rights. But regardless, all these are peanuts (and we for sure will solve them in the future) compared with the big elephant (or bear) which is russia, who ukraine bravely faces also for our defence
The people that saw this happening. Also, when capturing those regions, the sovietsdeployed troops from Kyiv, Odessa and other ukrainian cities. They used ukrainians because they could manipulate them to "free" their ukrainian brothers from the Romanian lands. That's also why it was so bloody aggressive, the ukrainians were having something personal with the romanians.
I know because I have family members that went through this.
There's 200.000 Ukrainians living and working in Romania since the war started, and they've been welcomed with open arms. Once Ukrainians realized we're not their enemies, their attitude changed, so relations have been constantly improving since. Our beef with Ukraine is basically irrelevant in comparison to the one we have with Russia.
If Russia is Big Satan, then Hungary is Little Satan to Romanians.
Both are seen as evil, violent, pagan Asian societies which only know war and conquest.
Otherwise, Romanians are cool with pretty much everyone in the Balkans (yes, including Kosovars, despite the recent soccer rivalry and verbal taunting, and including Turkey, a close friend nowadays).
And Romanians especially love Westerners, especially the Mediterranean ones (Italians, Spaniards) - but I guess everyone does.
Romanian principalities were basically Greek colonies. A lot of Greek owned assets were confiscated by the Romanian state, for which a compensating sum was offered. The Greek priests refused, so it was never paid.
I don’t think anyone dislikes the other based on that. Romania also expulsed around 75k Greeks in 1947 onwards, and mad many others either work or die in work camps but most Greeks don’t even know about that.
This is the first I hear about expulsion of Greeks from Romania. Don't blame Romania, it had just become a Soviet Union puppet state. I'm surprised as nobody could leave Romania then. Israel paid $10k for every Jew allowed to emigrate from Romania.
Do you have any links for me to follow up? I'm well informed about 1923 and the upheaval it cause, I listen to Rebetiko a lot. Expulsion from Romania adds to that picture
To be honest, I think it's childish to have any dislike or beef nowadays. We've all suffered like dogs here in the Balkans, and we should be celebrating each other as there's a lot more that connects us than it ever was to divide.
If you are talking about the Phanariot period, that can hardly be equivaleted with colony status.
Also the Greek independence fighters got safe refuge in Romania and a helping hand against the Ottoman Empire. So that kind of evens out with secularization.
Unfortunately there is a really big gap between what is taught in school and high school and what is taught in university. There is this communist trend that has propagated into contemporary school curricula that involves downplaying, minimizing or outright omitting very important (and painful) details about Romania's past.
Truth is we were up from the early 16th century *de facto* part of the Ottoman Empire, and the level and depth of exploitation only accelerated in the 17th, 18th and 19th century. In order to streamline said exploitation, an entire ensemble of foreign officials and admin were brought, which also tended to gain said positions by bribing the Ottomans, and they often did that not from their own pockets but by borrowing, expecting to get return of investment off of the exploitation of the principalities. Rival families competed to out-bribe their competition and thus replace the administration, which happened a lot. And then there were the taxes that the Ottomans themselves imposed, which spiraled into debt so big they just deleted it because they were exploiting so hard there was nothing to gain economic momentum from.
Up until 1821 Greek was the official language taught in school. Greek was removed and Romanian language entered the scene more as an Ottoman revenge on Greek betrayal, who before the Greek revolution they saw as their projection into the Orthodox world and thus part of their argument on them being the continuation of the Roman Empire. Greeks had amassed virtually all the wealth and the means of production in the principalities by the time of the Greek revolution.
Calling the Romanian principalities "Greek colonies" at a time that there didn't even exist a Greek state is kind of obsurd. It was Ottoman colonies administrated by Greek officials.
I think one of the tell-tale signs of colonialism is how the local language is undermined by the colonizer's language. Greek was the language that was taught in school. You may argue the semantics, but the process was the same.
With Romania itself, only beggining of last century regarding aromanian schools. With romanians or vlachs in general, there were a few conflicts before.
We actually did, I believe there was no diplomatic mission for a few good years before the balkan wars, and the whole 1821 T. Vladimirescu Eteria situation.
Nah Balkans can get along just fine problem is our government kurvas are taking orders from the bosses and every single time we get to a point we can drink and party together in peace the government idiots ruin it.
The thing that I did not know, until recently is that even before Stefan Lazarevic, his father fought in Anadolia for Murad I, I think against Karamanids. And they were not in vassalage relations then. Balkan politics are by far the most interesting in the whole world. Everybody is an ally until they are not. Kinda reminds of Sengoku in Japan.
Croats are pretty xenophobic to Albanians when you come here, like Slovenes. Honestly I met more Croats who hate Albanian immigrants than those who are neutral/like them. But tbf, some of them are a lot of trouble especially teenagers so it’s understandable.
I've heard about this, although Albanian immigrants im Croatia and Slovenia are not actually from Albania. Which is why a lot of us are oblivious abou our reputation there
First time seeing Turks love us, and vice versa, where did you get that from? I wouldn’t say we hate each other, but the relationship, compared to Greeks and Serbs…no way.
While Greece and Serbia have a long history of friendship, it's important to recognize that relationships in the Balkans are complex. Other countries like Montenegro and North Macedonia also have ties with Serbia, and Bulgaria shares cultural and historical connections with both Greece and Serbia. Alliances can shift based on political and social contexts.
Bulgarian here. Not sure what my khan ancestors thought while riding horses and slaughtering enemies, then drinking from their skulls, but I always loved Serbian folk. I also think it’s mutual. 🤜🤛
We were not always allies. We had common interests in late.ottoman era and we suffered the most from them due to not being traitors to the legavy we held from the old days.
I love Romania, always felt welcome there.
But then again, a nationality in itself won't make people better or worse, parts of it might, but yeah it's weird to judge people for better or worse off of it.
where did you get your sources? reality is that we love serbians but we are not allies. we helped them but officially we are not allies. We are brothers in Christ which is much more powerfull
The relationship between Greeks and Serbs goes beyond religion, imho. If you lookup the story of Vido island off the Corfu coast and what happened there during WWI, when thousands of Serbs were treated like true brothers and Corfu became something like "Little Belgrade", you'll be amazed. Funny thing is, this occured in Greece, but I was never taught about it in school; I learnt all about it by a Serb friend of mine. True that Balkans are Europe's powderkeg (or used to be), but there are some historic facts that build bridges between people.
Serbia and Romania are also brotherly nations, Serbia also has good relations with Montenegro even though the Montenegrin government does everything in it's power to tear them apart
Serbs were the Ottomans' most loyal vassals during their conquest of the Balkans, so I definitely wouldn't say so. Didn't work out too well for them lol but look up the Battle of Nicopolis for example.
I guess this is if you consider the Eastern European Empire to be Greece at all though, they were Romans that conquered Greece and just started speaking Greek, by the same logic the Ottoman Empire would be consireder Greece as well.
Albanians and Montenegrins have been fighting for a long time.
Maybe Italy(south) and Albania, but then again they did occupy the country at some point.
Not sharing borders helps. But I think Turkey has good relationships with Albania and Bosnia. Also you know... Albania and Kosovo love each other, but that's that's cheating since they are practically the same.
Dude, your country was being bombed in 1999 and the Greek government was actively participating in that with all means necessary.
I’d say that as peoples we get along and have pretty similar cultures no matter the country but government policies demand we breed racism and hatred for each other. I don’t care for this shit. Love all y’all
Still, you said “actively participating” when in reality participation from the Greek govt was passive and not 100% to what extent. Greek people went against the main NATO narrative and lost a lot of soft power in EU and the Balkan area. Just look at this subreddit and you will understand that Greece being pro-Serbia further derailed relationships with Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia. It is moronic to not state obvious facts for upvotes from anti-Greek keyboard fighters in this sub.
Even so, Greece was the only country that didn't comply with bombing Serbia and even send aid to Serbs. Also Greek paramilitary groups were on their side.
[https://www.hugendubel.info/detail/ISBN-9781585441839/Michas-Takis/Unholy-Alliance-Greece-and-Milosevics-Serbia](https://www.hugendubel.info/detail/ISBN-9781585441839/Michas-Takis/Unholy-Alliance-Greece-and-Milosevics-Serbia)
do some basic research lil mountain buddy, there were massive protests across Greece from the public against the bombing. Why would you be mad at good Serbian-Greece when they are historically rooted.
Because they have a population much larger and would be a big bite for you l, otherwise you would start claiming that Hagi is Serbian origin since yesterday
Isn’t Vojvodina a later amalgamation of Banat, Backa and Srem historical regions? Anyways here is what the ethnic map looked in 1910:
https://preview.redd.it/7094sjrweceg1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7b477d791eea99931bece71ca1e46f92045ac67
On our side there were 48k(5%) serbs while on yours 76k(13%) romanians, as minorities to each other.
Population size doesn't mean much to us, we fought the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the German Empire, the Ottoman Empire, Nazi Germany, etc.
However, I do understand why an Albanian might think that way since you're used to riding the coattails of bigger countries.
My point is that it's a dumb comment. It's just a really oversimplified way of looking at history. What you wrote implies Serbia and Croatia were fully fighting each other and Serbia lost, and that must mean that every other victory in history was made possible by Russia, neither of which are really true or have anything to do with each other
Considering that most of the hate comments here come from your nationals, as you yourself can see, I think serbia would be a good starting point. Others then can follow
There is nothing related who has a larger population. Serbia was stronger then Romania in the past but we never attacked each other.Historically we have always been allies with Romania and there were even royal marriages in history to strengthen the relationship between two countries. We are not like Albanians( shiptars) who think that Macedonia, Montenegro and Kosovo are theirs and will do anything to get that.
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In any case, refrain from posting or commenting in such a manner.
Julius Caesar Albanian?who claimed that?
The Sandzak territory and a lot of Montenegrin tribes were Albanians that got slavicized during 16-17-18th century.
Tribes Piperi,Bjelopavici,Vasojevici etc. they all of Albanian origin.
I didn't say there were some albanians tribes in montenegro, there are still some in south-eastern parts. But montenegrins as people are the most similiar to Serbs and bosniaks genetically and culturally.
We lived for centuries in Banat and Transylvania quite peacefully, we were allies in both second balkan war and ww1. We again peacefully corrected our borders in 1924, and we refused to attack them in ww2. Culturally we have important connections since second half of 14th century. It may not be the love romanian&serbian ultras love to preach, but we always have been rather friends than enemies.
Yeah this is a much more plausible explanation than actually accepting we are good with someone and they don't hate us. Must be that they are just too big of a bite for us.
like 9 different albanians came to this thread to start hating without even answering the question lmao, this doesn't even have anything to do with albania
I really like them, Bulgarians and Serbians especially. My best childhood friend is Polish-Greek and I have great relations with his family. I've also been to the Czech republic and the people there were nice.
I'm sorry that your racist narrative is completely fake. You seem to be doing that a lot though.
And what about the offences of North Macedonians against Greeks? Should I hold it against you when I don't even know you?
As I said, do try to grow up. I won't respond to anything else you comment, I'm sorry. This isn't going anywhere. I'm not the racist you wished I was.
Well Serbia and Greece were Orthodox brothers not recently I'm ashamed of my country for the recent incident that happened.
My countryman got retarded for a second and bear a Greek guy for winning a boxing match against us.
Can anyone just think for a second what our Balkan region would look like if corruption is decreased on a local village levels, all nations work together in economical, cultural and infrastructural fields and decide to be a competition to the world on the world scene. All our nations have enormous potential, resources, geographically between the west and the east, access to sea etc. No empire ever allowed this thought to be spread across people. So eventually this is a and always be a thicking bomb in the palms of the "Great" nations. I mean, c'mon Poland has such a strong economy equal to the economy of half the countries. They don't have more than us. And we are really close to each other. How much is it to go from Bucharest or Zagreb to Athens. New generations should think about this, there is no place for prejudice. Good luck y'all.
"Always" is kind of a myth.
We just don't share a common border, so we don't have any boarder disputes and we are both strongly Orthodox, so we are both kind of immune to islamic rhetoric.
I think Serbians appreciate a lot the work of Marinos Ritsoudis.
https://greekreporter.com/2022/03/10/greek-captain-marinos-ritsoudis-bombing-yugoslavia/
In terms of the modern Greek and Serbian states, then yes. If we want to go back to more medieval times then it's a no. Still, we're talking about a long time, especially by balkan standards.
There is no hate between the orthodox countries in Balkans. Yeah maybe Greeks might get angry at times with Romanians invading their beaches , maybe Bulgarians being pissed about all the transit on their road infrastructure, but it's nowhere near as saying you are an Albanian to a Serb.
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
In any case, refrain from posting or commenting in such a manner.
If we follow your argument, you would have blocked the integration of Yougoslavia in EU if thay would not change the name of their autonomous province of Macedonia, so your relations today would be bad.
I always thought this was some sort of Russian Propaganda, we do have a fair share of it.
Greeks like no one but themselves and even among us we have "categories" and a debate who is "more Greek"
Personally I like people for who they are and try to avoid ultranationalist and one side minded people, I long for meaningful debates
Never had a reason to be unfriendly. The modern states had a rivalry in Macedonia as to who's school will be in which village in the effort to claim Macedonians for later annexation.
Realistically, if one of us gets nuked then all of us are fked, so I think we can now be friends with all other Balkan countries, we are in this shit together now lol.
We had two honest allies, but both no longer exist in that form: the Russian Empire (not to be confused with the Soviet Union or the current Russian state) and the Greeks of the Filiki Eteria.
We have correct relations with the Greek and Romanian peoples, and a knife in the back from the Bulgarians—people with the same blood . That is, more or less, the whole picture.
As a Greek I could not give less of a fuck about Serbia. Our “brotherhood” is mostly 1910s Balkan Wars propaganda, “us vs them” bullshit because both countries were orthodox and they were dealing with Muslims during a time of great change. Well in 2026 I feel a lot closer to Albanians. Sorry not sorry.
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