That's really good news. Glad we're finally moving toward more affordable and hopefully smaller cars. Also, about time our auto industry started going its own way instead of following the U.
Chinese EVs are also more likely to succeed in Canada because salaries are so much lower than those in the US. Americans can afford to spend more to avoid Chinese cars, so the potential customer pool would be much smaller there.
Chinese products likely to succeed š Your importing Temu Tesla's. Tell me what happens if 30% of these electric vehicles completely fail in the first few years, lay out for me how Canada is gonna rectify that, other than buying them back and putting them in a scrap heap somewhere. China is gonna tell the govt to fuck off after they've gotten their money. Youre gonna pay for them twice.
Ungrateful and entitled. How many billions of dollars do we spend every year protecting you, and you repeatedly spit in our face. We subsidize your safety, add a tremendous amount of money to your economy, and yet we get put down at every chance. Unbelievable.
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If the legacy automakers from around the world can't compete with the subsidized chinese cars what makes you think Canada can? Canada still has a problem with brain drain to the US even with all the crazy politics.
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Tesla is also very subsidized. So are many legacy car makers in the US with bailouts. Look at the Japanese government bailing out Nissan too.
Being chinese cars and manufacturer in. Learn from themāthereās genuine engineering and manufacturing competence in them. Get the ball rolling.
lol China just copied from Tesla. Apple improved BYD's battery tech.
Let Canada hang itself with it's own rope. Import more Indian workers while locals refuse to build more housing while you're at it haha
> about time our auto industry started going its own way instead of following the US.
Ford, GM, and Stellantis employ *tens of thousands*, maybe hundreds of thousands of Canadians.
The entire reason Canada is so hesitant, is because if these American automakers pull out, suddenly hundreds of thousands of directly employed and downstream Canadians are now out of jobs.
This would be better if BYD or whoever were building cars in Canada, but they aren't.
America has been threatening our sovereignty and sid directly they don't need or want our trade. Getting out of bed with America is the smartest thing Canada can do right now.
The US government is literally, at this moment, waging a trade war against us. The choice has been made for us. It blows my mind that people could be so ignorant.
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If it were my choice Canada would have diversified our economy decades ago. Relying on a single volatile nation was our greatest mistake. And now that America has gone further insane and attacked a sovereign nation for its resources (again), and is threatening to attack a NATO allied nation we're scrambling to trade with literally anybody else.
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>If Ford decides Canada isn't actually favoring them, it's pretty easy for Ford to just pull the plug on their Canadian offices and plants and consolidate in the US.
That's what's been happening already with further threats to do more. This is a response to diversify away from being overly reliant on the US when they've proven to be unreliable.
This promises to be a test case to bringing more manufacturing here. You don't start a building with the top floor.
You don't start by pissing on your neighbors front door either hoping to attract the foreign exchange student who isn't going to move all of their stuff to your town.
I know it's hard for people here to understand since Reddit skews young and inexperienced, but chasing after new jobs at the expense of jobs that are already there is how you destroy industries and ruin your economy. Especially once those companies/industries fully leave and there's no one with experience there left to even try restarting them.
You won't have an auto industry once you flood the market with Chinese cars. But the bankers will be happy, and hey, that's what you voted to put in charge.
With Mango Mussolini's tantrums, who's the say the auto industry will even survive in Canada. Canada has to do what's best for Canada in 2026, and that is forming new partnerships with other countries. We can't afford to wait ten years and "see what happens".
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Legitimately hilarious that we have more than a decade of examples of how China "expands" local economies in other countries, but y'all are just trusting Lucy to not pull out the football again.
You deserve everything that's coming. Shame innocents will suffer.
> Legitimately hilarious that we have more than a decade of examples of how China "expands" local economies in other countries
Yeah, they **actually** expand the economies of countries they work with.
Would you rather they take IMF 'loans'? lol
Better to deal with a dictator half a world away versus the fascist on the doorstep.
Americans can and may yet take this land. Barring that every alternative up to and including abject poverty, and worse, is better than being known... As American.
That slur now exceeds that of fascist, the two having long reached synonymous stature.
Legitimately hilarious that an outsider knows what's best for Canada? Canada will survive just fine. America deserves everything that's coming. Shame innocents are already suffering.
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>You won't have an auto industry once you flood the market with Chinese cars.
Correct, which is why they are only allowing 49,000 a year or roughly 2.5% of the total car sales.
Canada instituted EV tariffs against China in lockstep with and at the behest of the US. As a result, China has had retaliatory tariffs against Canadian canola, pork, peas, and other agricultural/industrial products.
This deal includes them drastically reducing or dropping those tariffs, reopening a much larger export market for Canadian farmers.
I looked up the prices and rhe costs do not seem much better and they will not be covered by the su subsidies.
All in all I am gearing up for another disappoint the report seems to forget mark ups and what models will be sent maybe basic models.
It is a band aid but that is all.
In 2025, approximately 1,897,058 new vehicles were sold in Canada. So 49,000 Chinese EV per year represents 2.6% of vehicles sold annually. Good start.
Put it in context of EVās. Tesla only sold like 25,000 vehicles in Canada last year, this is twice as many new Chinese EVs on the market as new Teslas.
What? Are you sure youāre looking at the same article? The article is about reducing Chinese tariffs on auto makers in Canada. Tesla sales are down globally and thatās not because of US tariffs. Tesla is dying as a car brand.
Still feeling the same way with the announcement that Tesla is getting rid of the X and S? So 3 models, and we know one of them is a complete failure, they just donāt wanna admit it yet.
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If you're familiar at all with the options, only the Xiaomi SU7/YU7 compete pretty well, both in reviews and sales performance, but they just started making cars and demand domestically is totally saturating their manufacturing capacity.
BYD mostly stays away from direct competition, the Seal is nice, but at least until an update, not super convincing. Look at what the UK and Australian car reviewers place it versus the 3 and ID.7 for example.
> only the Xiaomi SU7/YU7 compete pretty well
That's just not true, the iM5, Byd Han and Seal, Xpeng P7i, Hongqi E-H7, Nio ET5 wipe the floor with the Model 3.
Obviously not in sales but perceived quality is in a different league entirely, the Tesla feels cheap next to them.
The automotive press doesn't share that opinion:
https://youtu.be/HYJ4B9zRmK0?si=rUmEi-qGPikUilvS
Not that those are bad, but they're not at the same level yet.
Whatcar are not to be taken seriously, they're not what I'd call good at their jobs lol
I mean just look at the comments, people are pointing out that they've flip-flopped on most things and are quite biased.
It's not just them. I have yet to see a single comparo where that opinion is reversed. Can't see why they'd be biased towards an American company. They've also been pretty consistent with picking their top EV choices.
Feel free to share though!
Fewer than you assume. Driving a Tesla has become a political statement many Canadians prefer not to make.
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/2149201/montreal-tesla-dealership-vandalized-amid-backlash-against-elon-musk
Tesla is getting killed in Australia
[https://evtopcars.com/teslas-declining-sales-in-australia-the-rise-of-chinese-ev-brands/](https://evtopcars.com/teslas-declining-sales-in-australia-the-rise-of-chinese-ev-brands/)
Yeah, it must be terrible to...checks notes...be the best selling EV OEM, again.
Maybe we can blame the [ANCAP](https://www.ancap.com.au/media-and-gallery/media-releases/221c38) for giving them an "awful" safety score.
Tesla sales are down over 60% in 2025, no one wants to associate themselves with that brand.
And now with superior BYD products coming and ones that are cheaper, it's a no brainer.
> no one wants to associate themselves with that brand.
elon has become the mr. evil to the left. but that is not 'no one' by a large margin. kinda like saying no one will watch de niro movies for his efforts.
Let's revisit that towards the end of the year, lol.
Not sure BYD will jump in that fast, but if they do, it'll be with the Seagull and maybe the Shark.
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any insight on if this will on benefit tesla volvo etc, i am a local dealer that would like to import vehicles before the 49000 alotment is spoken for. or is this just for big players who will mark up the cars as soon as they arrive to unaffordable prices. i have not found any contact information or the agency i should be emailing regarding this.
You underestimate peoples' ability to not give a shit.
Is a fifth generation Laurentian Canadian constitutional lawyer living in Forest Hill going to possibly boycott Tesla? Yeah, for sure. But there are lots of new Canadians who don't care. I live in a predominantly Chinese area in suburban Toronto, and I can tell you I see LOTS of new Teslas running around, and based on conversations I have with many Chinese-Canadians, they either just don't care at all, or they think Mr Tesler is very smart.
I can see Tesla maybe losing ground in this demographic because of the whole äøå½å¼ŗ patriotism thing, but it certainly won't be because of E's actions or T's threats.
Similar here in the Midwest US. Many Asians, especially Chinese, seem to operate more apolitically and give no fucks about driving a Tesla or whatever Musk says.Ā
> Noticed the same here in Southern California. New Teslas seem to be disproportionally driven by Asians
They do the math and don't watch America movies!
Yup. The other guy brought up Asians not having cars in their home countryā¦ but Iām seeing mostly Americans born Asians (including Indians here) driving them in SoCal.
What pisses me off though as an Asian American myself: they all drive like the Asian stereotype! Combination of the Tesla drive stereotype plus Asian stereotype = the worst thing on the road lol
I actually don't think it's so much driving like the Asian stereotype so much as it's just that Teslas attract bad drivers.
Back in the day the Toyota Camry was sort of the catch-all for bad drivers because it was the car for people who didn't care about cars, and therefore didn't care about driving. But then Tesla came along and sort of captured that market. Now I notice Camry drivers are mostly above-average to good, especially the ones with higher trim levels, while it's Tesla drivers that behave in a manner similar to Camry drivers from 2011.
Asians didn't grow up with cars in our home countries, and even if you're not a recent immigrant, you're probably in an area with other immigrants that share a similar mentality, so a lot of us don't have the preconceived notions of what a car is and the associated aversion to EVs because EVs are just cars to us. Specifically for South Asians, I know bollywood romanticizes American cars too and owning an American car is seen as a status symbol. Asians are also usually more higher educated, and are significantly overrepresented in tech, so they're more likely to adopt the tech forward brands like Tesla.
Here in Japan and China Elon is actually still hugely respected, if not worshipped.
Not surprising since not many people here knows the ins and outs of American *domestic* politics
I wonder how much of a role the language barrier plays, because I'm willing to bet that fully prevents some people from understanding what he's saying or what he stands for.
One of my Japanese friends says it drives him absolutely up the fucking wall when he talks with friends and family back home and they all gush about how smart the president of the United States is, especially when they say it in response to a video where he says something totally moronic but the subtitles are deliberately mistranslated to something completely different (and coherent). My wife's family in Taiwan also has the same issue.
The stuff that makes the news here in Japan is just the run of the mill official political things like meeting with world leaders or enacting policies like tariffs or whatever.
Very little of what he says is actually translated directly and the crazy unhinged rants and ramblings aren't even mentioned, I assume because the character-level shenanigans really aren't relevant to anyone here.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about Musk. Teslas (and EVs in general) aren't popular. Nothing else he does is relevant here.
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Like there is some truth that people will buy the cheaper vehicle. When rubber hits the road people make financial decisions based on finances.
But also don't underestimate a Canadians ability to spiteful. We are very deep grudge holders up here.
As an example, fuck Heinz ketchup.
I'm still a French's household (see my flair, fellow Canadian). But, I will buy Heinz if it is deeply discounted. Appa puts it brilliantly: https://youtu.be/XmOX_S_zI_s?si=CU75xE4goBzGKMre
Similarly, if I had a very long commute and it made financial sense to do so, I'd consider buying a Tesler for the right price. Likely a used one, but if they get in a price war with Chinese EVs, then sure, I'm happy to rip off Musk.
> if they get in a price war with Chinese EVs, then sure, I'm happy to rip off Musk.
You'd not be ripping him off-- quite the opposite, given his trillion dollar payout is dependent on how many cars he sells, not what they sell for.
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Or maybe thereās no grand political motive at allājust people choosing the car that gives them the most tech and performance for the price, which right now happens to be Tesla, compared to equally priced Mercedes, BMWs, and Audis.
I mean that's... exactly what I was saying? "They literally do not care" is another way of saying politics doesn't factor into their decisions.
But I do know a lot of Chinese people who have said they wish they could buy Chinese cars in Canada. Some of what they say is rooted in facts, like Chinese EVs are just more price competitive. But a lot of what they say is just pure Han jingoism.
Same in the UK. I live fairly close to a Tesla dealer and often drive down the same route they send people on for test drives. I see people test driving that shit every time I'm there. Musk is advocating for overthrowing our democratically enviroment and people practically line up to spend money with him. It's always the same demographic too, 35+ white couple
I can see Tesla losing ground more if these Chinese EVs start undercutting Tesla, Rivian and other usual EV makers in just the price point and the features they offer
100% agree with you. Most of the new Model Y drivers I have seen are of Asian descent. They probably are waiting to go to US with the TN visa after they get the citizenship here.
You overestimate how much people give a shit. Itās very much an online and reddit thing to boycott something they were never gonna buy in the first place but it doesnāt apply to the general public who just wants a tech friendly A to B car
those would sell like hotcakes. most people are not politically infused and dont have the money to boycott. just look how fast the "buy canadian, boycott american" thing died.
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People have to buy them. Someone must be pretty stupid to buy a car with dealerships ro repair it and with the history of chinese government of stealing companies data, you have to buy it knowing full well china will have access to all the data the car gps, mic, cameras and lidar can gather. You can open the border to 1 million chinese cars, poeple wont buy them.
That's how a real country reacts. When you don't have a pedo with tantrums for president you make some little changes and see how your local market reacts.
If it goes well they will increase it to 99.000 next time .
If next time goes bad it will reduce it back to 49k .
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People said the same thing about Japanese cars in the 1970s:
"They'll dump in your market"
"The government subsidizes them it's not fair"
"Labor conditions mean they can make it cheaper"
And now Canada has Toyota and Honda plants lol.
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More competition is always good for the consumer. Although china is subsidizing their car industry BIG TIME, just to hurt every other car industry, which is absolutely unsustainable.
> More competition is always good for the consumer. Although china is subsidizing their car industry BIG TIME
people need to stop saying this. the U.S is literally also subsidizing many industries including auto, by not taxing them as much as they are supposed to, often times no taxes at all. thats literally billions. they also subsidize the shit, out of oil. oil is completely unprofitable, but due to lobbying, its cheap as hell. so auto makers sell a lot of cars
The US govt also literally bailed out some of their automakers during financial crises, giving them billion just to stay afloat. There isnāt real competition in the American auto industry anymore.
Do you actually have examples of Chinese companies raising prices after dominating a market?
I canāt think of any actually, usually the prices stay low, if not continue to go lower
Recently, Japan PM said that if China attacked Taiwan, it could be a threat to Japanās survival and military action could be justified for self defense.
In response, China raised prices on dual use materials like rare earth metals to infinity. This will have major impacts on Japanās consumer industries.
It shouldnāt be a surprise. When you are dealing with Chinese companies, you are dealing with China. And China does not even tolerate dissent within their ranks. Why would they tolerate dissent when they have the leverage?
I'm bewildered at the vastly out of touch redditors that think aversion to subsidized chinese EVs is some kind of jingoism...China is everything they think America is
"no but we HAVE to upset the yanks, our ONLY choice is to buy chinese"
people complain that everything is made in china and that it's difficult to find stuff made locally or in high quality manufacturing countries, then they pull shit like this
no fucking wonder we aren't making anything anymore. it's not like people are saying "ok but the chinese need to open factories here", everyone is just immediately going "screw it let's get the chinese shit here as fast as possible". they aren't interested in opening factories here either way because they both can't do dumping and can't save the money by not paying their workforce.
even the chinese themselves were forbidding foreign carmakers until very recently of having their own factories in china, they HAD to partner with a local manufacturer and that local manufacturer had to own *at least* 50% of the venture. they also weren't able to just export cars to china because foreign-made cars were either banned or very, very heavily tariffed. why should they then have free reign to dump their products in foreign markets?
people are so invested in upsetting the yanks that they're ready to ignore every single alternative (i mean, what happened to "buy canadian"?) like korean/japanese/european cars. it's cutting your nose to spite your face at this point.
>even the chinese themselves were forbidding foreign carmakers until very recently of having their own factories in china, they HAD to partner with a local manufacturer and that local manufacturer had to own at least 50% of the venture. they also weren't able to just export cars to china because foreign-made cars were either banned or very, very heavily tariffed.
And what ever came of that? They never got the ICE expertise, never. Their ICE cars always sucked. So they leapfrogged that tech and went straight to EVs, having learned nothing from Western ICE know-how. Who's to say we would actually gain anything from a similar joint venture arrangement?
>why should they then have free reign to dump their products in foreign markets?
They aren't dumping, though. If anything Chinese car manufacturers see foreign markets as a good opportunity to sell stuff for MORE money because the price competition in China itself is so fierce that margins get slashed to pretty much nothing. Selling your shit for MORE money in a foreign market is literally the opposite of dumping.
That's literally what's happening with US car companies in Canada right now. Shutting down plants for political reasons and charging $70k for mediocre trucks. The reality is that there doesn't seem to be much of a difference anymore.
How much are we subsidizing our own auto industry, and how many jobs are we getting out of it?
How much did we subsidize GM and Chrysler back in the day only for them to basically fuck off completely? How much public money was wasted on that? Actually, the automakers we DIDN'T bail out are also the only ones that have a meaningful manufacturing footprint here right now.
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Just need to look no further than how China came to dominate the rare earth metal business or the EV-grade graphite (key component in battery anode).
China dominates absolutely in those two -- China not only manipulates pricing for those two, but has also used them geo-politically for decades now. For instance, the 2010 rare earth metal ban against Japan over the Shinkaku Islands dispute; or the 2020 EV-graphite ban against Sweden's battery champion Northvolt because Sweden protected Chinese dissidents and called out human rights violation.
This isn't about competition, but protection against anti-market competition. I don't understand there are folks who believe China is pro-competition, pro-market, or pro-consumer.
exactly, it's not like we've had the experience over and over and over again with chinese companies in tons and tons of market sectors.
it's like people all forgot that when we arrested the cfo daughter of huawei's ceo due to a warrant, china immediately decided to detain the two michaels for no reason over than to have hostages in retaliation, and they detained them for years, long after the huawei cfo was back in china.
china is going to do the exact same shit the americans do if not worse.
not to mention, until very recently, their car market was virtually closed to foreign carmakers. foreign-made cars were either heavily tariffed or completely banned, and a foreign carmaker couldn't independently open a local factory; they *had* to partner with a local manufacturer and that local manufacturer had to own *at least* 50% of the venture. why should we let them have free reign in our market? the ev market is not just tesla, there are alternatives.
it's like deciding to sleep with your abusive friend just to spite your ex
>it's like people all forgot that when we arrested the cfo daughter of huawei's ceo due to a warrant, china immediately decided to detain the two michaels for no reason over than to have hostages in retaliation, and they detained them for years, long after the huawei cfo was back in china.
You arrested a CEO because the Americans wanted her arrested on BS claims, so China arrested a couple of spys living in China.
People mostly don't believe those things about China. Which is why Carney is limiting how many cars China can export to Canada. Same with Europe.
Most nations recognize China for what it is. A very corrupt but stable government that oversees a very large manufacturing based economy that can provide cheap goods. Just because they buy from China doesn't mean they have any love for it's government.
For a lot of shit china has done, doing what every other country to grow their domestic economy is not that bad. It's like complaining about subsidizes of corn in the us and ignoring the funding of prisons.
The vast majority of Chinese subsidies, like 90+% are for things like consumer sales tax exemptions and consumer purchase credit, which only apply to domestic vehicle purchases and have absolutely no relevance to exported vehicles.
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This feels like Canada importing the EUās mistakes in real time, but without the EUās industrial base or leverage.
Cheap EVs under $25k sound great for consumers short term, but this isnāt just about cars, itās about industrial power. Batteries are ~40% of an EVās cost, and China controls that stack end-to-end. Once you open the door to subsidized, vertically integrated imports, domestic production doesnāt āget competitiveā - it just exits.
Europe is actively backpedaling right now because they realized EV mandates + Chinese overcapacity = hollowed-out auto industry, job losses, and dependency. Canada seems to be ignoring that lesson entirely and choosing affordability today over any long-term manufacturing option tomorrow.
Also worth noting: Canada doesnāt really have ānational championsā to pressure into innovation here. This mostly undercuts North American production and weakens CanadaāUS auto integration, while turning Canada into a dumping market capped only by politics.
Cheap EVs arenāt free. Youāre just paying later in jobs, leverage, and policy flexibility.
Curious how people think Canada walks this back once cheap imports become normalized.
> It's less than 50,000 EVs total being allowed in.
Thatās how it *starts.*
50k isnāt about market share, itās about *setting the floor.* Once you normalize sub-$25k EV pricing from a vertically integrated, state-subsidized supply chain, you blow up margins for everyone else overnight.
Investors donāt look at āonly 50k units,ā they look at *policy direction*. Suppliers donāt wait for volume collapse, they pull back when pricing becomes structurally unviable. And politicians never claw this stuff back once consumers get used to cheap cars.
Europe said the same thing. āSmall numbers.ā āTemporary.ā āWonāt matter.ā
Now theyāre scrambling with tariffs, minimum prices, and mandate walkbacks because the mid-market started collapsing.
This isnāt a flood. Itās *price anchoring + precedent.* The damage happens *before* volume does.
If Canada thinks this stops at 49,900 units forever, Iāve got a bridge to sell.
>hollowed-out auto industry, job losses
You mean like the shuttered Brightdrop factory, or the Jeep Compass production that got moved to Illinois...? Canada's automotive industry is as good as dead anyways thanks to the current administration in the US, so at least consumers can have some affordable products.
This will be interesting since Canadian & American safety standards are, by design, essentially identical. Wonder if USDOT will allow them to be imported?
I wonder if they will even let them drive on the roads in the US.
Importing will never happen as even the most minor compliance will get them denied. I couldn't import my older eclass from Canada due to the slight difference in tire pressure monitored systems used by CDN/EU vs USA. Very strict.
Lots of non-USDM stuff gets in temporarily, mostly visitors from Mexico. I imagine it wonāt be any worse than that.
Your Merc wouldāve needed to be certified by MB as āsubstantially similarā. These EVs wouldnāt fall under that since there isnāt a US equivalent. What I was thinking is an importer may point to the emissions & safety testing already done to show they meet CaDM and try to get them certified here.
Just wait for the influx of 'cheap' used EV's in the States when Dealers import them in. Although they lose their warranty, so I doubt anyone would buy them.
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It will be difficult to find a garage to service these vehicles depending on where you live, particularly in the north. The dealerships will likely be in large urban areas.
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The right move. EVs are the future and unfortunately, just few others are hitting the mark like China is. The competition has gotten comfortable and lazy, time to throw a wrench into things and give consumers more choice, especially at affordable options
The infrastructure not being in place doesn't make them "not the future" (nevermind that electricity is basically everywhere). There were no gas stations when automobiles first debuted, or hell even paved roads, but that didn't stop adoption. The infrastructure gets built over time. It's not some insurmountable obstacle.
If people can't charge their EV's, they can't drive them. Charging is the bottleneck right now.
People who live in an apartment complex, how are they going to charge their cars? Let's assume a complex with 100 units and every tenant drives an EV. How is that gonna work?
They had asphalt paved roads in the 1870's, before cars existed. Full service filling stations were a thing in the 1910's.
The infrastructure to support mass adoption of EV's is a lot more than just putting asphalt down and building gas stations. It requires all new power plants to be built, and the full infrastructure to transmit the power to the last mile. If all of the houses on a residential transformer want to add fast charging for their EV's, they will have to buy the new transformer to support that load (ask me how I know).
We will see if they are "the future" in the future, but as of right now they are NOT the future.
> Let's assume a complex with 100 units and every tenant drives an EV. How is that gonna work?
For some reason you seem to keep assuming current infrastructure, yet an overnight jump to 100% EVs. It's not going to work that way. Adoption and infrastructure will each chase each other-- exactly as happened with gasoline and paved roads.
> They had asphalt paved roads in the 1870's, before cars existed. Full service filling stations were a thing in the 1910's.
Yeah, they "had" them like we "had" charging infrastructure in 2013. They kept adding more and more of them as car adoption increased, just as they've been adding more and more fast chargers as EV adoption increased. Again, adoption and infrastructure chase each other.
> It requires all new power plants to be built
Yes and no. We have a lot of unused overnight capacity we can tap. We have decentralized generation options (e.g. rooftop solar). We're building more power plants anyways for AI. It's not like building a new power plant is some impossibility, so long as demand is there.
> If all of the houses on a residential transformer want to add fast charging for their EV's
No houses are buying fast chargers, lol. At absolute most they're using 19.2 kW L2 chargers. Most will be 7.2 kW.
> We will see if they are "the future" in the future, but as of right now they are NOT the future.
Given adoption rates continue to increase YoY, in a way you're right-- they're more like the present.
> We have a lot of unused overnight capacity we can tap. We have decentralized generation options (e.g. rooftop solar).
I have solar, and I got news for you - it does not generate any power overnight. lmao.
> It's not like building a new power plant is some impossibility, so long as demand is there.
A single nuclear power plant costs anywhere between $6B and $15B to build, that is a lot more investment than asphalt roads and gas stations. People like to make it seem like we can spin up nuclear plants to power this stuff like it's nothing, but it takes 5+ years and billions of dollars for a single plant.
> No houses are buying fast chargers, lol. At absolute most they're using 19.2 kW L2 chargers. Most will be 7.2 kW.
Colloquially, when someone says fast charging at home this is what they mean. Plugging into 110 is not fast charging. And again, do some research on k9+ transformers that are needed for this. In neighborhoods that are more than a couple years old, most will still need transformer upgrades.
> Given adoption rates continue to increase YoY, in a way you're right-- they're more like the present.
Wake me up when we pass the 10% adoption rate barrier. š„±
> I have solar, and I got news for you - it does not generate any power overnight. lmao.
Whelp, given you've proven your reading comprehension is nonexistent-- that's not what I said at all, and it's not possible to have a written debate with someone who cannot read-- I think I'm done here. Have fun thinking EVs are not the future, when they're actively becoming it.
Yeah, okay bro.. I can say the same thing about you.
People charge their EV's at night, solar panels do not generate power at night. That means you are pulling from the grid at night to charge your car. Stupid point for you to try and make.
People have been saying the same thing you have here since the Model S launched, and we're still less than 10% adoption rate and having [forced power blackouts](https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/ai-data-centers-electric-grid-meltdown) across many parts of the country during the summer because our power grid is in dire straits. And people like you think that isn't a problem. We have at least 10+ years, possibly 20, before our power infrastructure is up to the task of being able to support mass adoption of EV's. And this is not even touching on the lithium shortage we will see in the coming years.
It's always the Tesla owners who can't see things outside of their bubble.
EVs arenāt the future. Full stop.
There is not enough rare earth material on planet earth to replace our current ICE powered human fleet of vehicles.
People preaching sustainability while buying 70k EVs are quite literally pulling the ladder up behind them.
Hybrids can solve problem by being able to actually replace all ICE vehicles and not just turning owning a vehicle into a way for wealthy people to lord over poorer folks while simultaneously feeling good about it.
> There is not enough rare earth material on planet earth to replace our current ICE powered human fleet of vehicles.
The good news is we don't have to replace all of them. As large swaths of the population die off due to [partially-vehicle-induced] climate change, the number of vehicles the remaining portion will need will be less than we have now.
> People preaching sustainability while buying 70k EVs are quite literally pulling the ladder up behind them.
Please learn what "literally" means.
Not to mention, used EVs are some of the best used car bargains you can get today. You don't need to spend anywhere *near* $70k to drive an EV, lol.
I don't really trust The Drive since they published [this](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/40779/tesla-will-have-to-ship-its-texas-built-cars-out-of-state-to-sell-back-to-residents) which was obviously wrong to anyone who spent two seconds Googling the actual law, but sure, let's look at that three-year-old article.
> Whatās more, EV battery supplies are expected to fall short of demand within the next couple of years.
It's been a couple of years, and nope.
> Boston Consulting Group predicts āchronicā shortages as soon as 2025.
It's after 2025, and nope.
> Most of the benefits of a full EV transition, however, would present themselves with widespread PHEV adoption.
As we've come to know, PHEVs have failed to reduce emissions as much as expected because people [do not plug them in](https://autos.yahoo.com/ev-and-future-tech/articles/gms-ceo-just-admitted-uncomfortable-001443060.html).
The biggest thing the article fails to recognize is we shouldn't *be* trying to produce as many vehicles as possible. To achieve maximum reductions, we should be focused on non-single-occupancy-vehicle ways of moving people, from micromobility to busses to trains.
Anyways, the planet was the [third-hottest it's ever been last year](https://www.npr.org/2026/01/15/nx-s1-5677253/2025-was-among-the-hottest-years-on-record-continuing-a-concerning-trend), and we're certain to cross every climate-related tipping point in the years to come (and AI buildouts will only accelerate this), so it's basically moot at this point. Drive what you want, we've fucked ourselves anyways.
Itās the batteries, not motors.
Iām just parroting what Toyota says, so guess theyāre full of shit.
https://www.thedrive.com/features/toyota-is-right-we-need-more-hybrid-cars-and-fewer-evs-heres-why
Batteries don't contain rare earth materials, motors often do (Neodymium).
Toyotas argument is that the same amount of batteries result in larger emissions savings in hybrids. The simple answer is that we should produce more batteries to further reduce emissions, but they don't want you to think of that.
Big surprise, Toyota are also [among the biggest fossil fuel lobbyists](https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/toyota-go-green-and-stop-lobbying-for-fossil-fuels) and [the worst among automakers](https://www.greenpeace.org/eastasia/press/7006/toyota-ranks-last-among-global-carmakers-for-decarbonization-greenpeace-report/).
Batteries don't contain rare earth materials, motors often do (Neodymium).
Toyotas argument is that the same amount of batteries result in larger emissions savings in hybrids. The simple answer is that we can produce more batteries to save more emissions, but they don't want you to think of that.
Big surprise, Toyota are also [among the biggest fossil fuel lobbyists](https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/toyota-go-green-and-stop-lobbying-for-fossil-fuels).
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You're not wrong, but eventually the infrastructure will be there. Battery technology, public charging stations, it's not like those have peaked and will never get better.
Sure, I know infrastructure will eventually catch up. But it will take hundreds of billions of dollars and probably decades to get there. And we do not know what things will be like that far away. We're already at the cusp of a worldwide lithium shortage, too.
You can charge at home for 90% of use for 90% of people and cross country EV infrastructure exists. It's the future, despite the ever decreasing inconveniences
Can't charge at home unless you live in a house. If you live in an apartment, you can't charge at home. More people live in apartments than houses.
There are random EV charging stations with 5-10 stalls spread out across the main interstates and highways, yes, but that's not enough to support mass adoption.
I take it you've never had to wait an hour for a free stall at a charger to open up while your car doesn't have enough range to make it to the next nearest one. Until there are charging spots in the same number and frequency as gas stations, the proper infrastructure is not there.
> More people live in apartments than houses.
In the US, [62.7%](https://www.huduser.gov/periodicals/ushmc/fall08/ch1.pdf)* of dwellings are SFH. In Canada, that's [52.7%](https://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/corporate/statistics/neud/dpa/showTable.cfm?type=CP§or=res&juris=ca&rn=21&page=2&CFID=27930523&CFTOKEN=137c4b02bbcdafde-F0F3CE64-B2CC-2EED-19FB9E38EC616BA7) So no, most people do not live in apartments.
And while I can't find the data for Canada, in the US, [93%](https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/01/new-car-buyer-demographics-2019/) of new car buyers own their own house. So apartment dwellers (specifically, those renting apartments) aren't really relevant to adoption.
*I know that data's from 2007, but I couldn't for the life of me find the newer source I used to reference; either way, the mix hasn't changed much since then
Your road trip map is exactly what I said - chargers spread out along interstate or state highways. Rural areas and even many suburban areas still do not have many options for charging stations. I live in a city of about 20k people, and plugstar is only showing 3 charging stations within a 20 mile radius. Gasbuddy shows 13 gas stations in that area. If EV's are to be suited for mass adoption, they need more charging stations *outside of interstate or state highways* and they need to be viable for people who live in apartments.
The 93% stat just reiterates my point - that EV's are mainly only viable for homeowners right now. EV's are not viable for the majority of people right now unless you live in a house where you can charge them at.
I'm going to ignore the 2007 data, as that was before even the great recession. That REALLY changed the stats on home ownership. lol. But the 52% stat.. so half of the people in Canada live in apartments, that's half the population where an EV is not viable for daily transportation.
There's so much misinformation and conflating of stats here, it's hard to know where to begin.
> Your road trip map is exactly what I said - chargers spread out along interstate or state highways.
My road trip map is only to point out that I have tons of experience public charging, and can attest that "outside of a few sensationalized news stories, [wait[ing] an hour for a free stall at a charger to open up] isn't a thing that really happens." If you want a comprehensive map of all fast chargers, Plugshare is happy to provide. All major population centers are covered, as are most populated rural areas, and more are coming online each day. 3 fast chargers in a 20 mile radius in a 20k-person "city" is plenty, given most EV owners who use them charge at home.
> they need to be viable for people who live in apartments.
Not really, because again, apartment dwellers aren't the ones buying new cars by and large. Homeowners (that 93%) are, and most of them don't live in apartments.
> The 93% stat just reiterates my point - that EV's are mainly only viable for homeowners right now.
The 93% stat is for *all* vehicle purchases, not just EVs. Renters simply do not buy new cars. And when we're talking about adoption, new sales are what matters. Used buyers have only ever had access to new buyers' sloppy seconds.
> EV's are not viable for all people right now unless you live in a house where you can charge them at.
I agree with you there. Fortunately this does not describe the vast majority of new car buyers.
> I'm going to ignore the 2007 data, as that was before even the great recession. That REALLY changed the stats on home ownership. lol.
The 2007 data isn't about homeownership rates... it's about the mix of dwelling types. That hasn't changed much at all (IIRC the newer stats I now cannot find for the life of me (perhaps they were deleted in the Great Data Purge last year?), it was around 60% SFH now).
> But the 52% stat.. so half of the people in Canada live in apartments, that's half the population where an EV is not viable for daily transportation.
a) 52% means other dwelling types are 48%, or not "most" as your post I replied to asserted, and b) it's not like chargers cannot be installed at apartments. More complex, sure, but not insurmountable. Most countries with high EV adoption that aren't in North America have high numbers of apartments and manage just fine.
> All major population centers are covered, as are most populated rural areas, and more are coming online each day. 3 fast chargers in a 20 mile radius in a 20k-person "city" is plenty, given most EV owners who use them charge at home.
Sorry, but 15 fast charging stalls in a city with 20k people is not plenty. The entire context of this comment thread is about EV's being "the future", and that ain't it.
> Renters simply do not buy new cars. And when we're talking about adoption, new sales are what matters.
Got a source for that, source man? I know plenty of renters who have bought new cars. Also, ignoring used cars is ignoring an entirely different dataset that plays a role here. Are you saying that people living in their homes who buy new EV's either keep them forever or destroy the car once they are done using them? Used EV market is pretty substantial, we can't ignore that when we are talking about mass adoption.
>Most countries with high EV adoption that aren't in North America have high numbers of apartments and manage just fine.
We aren't talking about EV's outside of NA here. This conversation is literally rooted in NA infrastructure to support EV's.
> it's not like chargers cannot be installed at apartments. More complex, sure, but not insurmountable.
Again, a few charging stalls for an apartment complex is far from mass adoption or "the future".
Unfortunately many western democracies don't follow "build and they will come", but rather build after they come, as they work to meet existing consumer demand. At least the demand of EVs will also increase the demand for infrastructure and result in expansion of the network.
Yeah. The only downside is that expanding the infrastructure at that scale takes many years. Right now, datacenters are in waiting lines for new power infrastructure, so they are #1 priority. Once we see all of the datacenters get their power 3-5 years from now, we might see something for EV's.
I guess starting sooner would have been a good idea then?
Building data centers to further increase emissions instead of electrifying isn't a great look either, but I have low expectations for the US anyway.
Not really. It's pretty decent now in a lot of Canada. The money being thrown at the issue isn't all that big.
The Prairies are a long way behind though, I'll admit that.
More is better though.
EVs haven't seen any meaningful innovation in many years and without a giant leap in battery technology and an overhaul of our entire electrical generation and distribution system, EVs will only be a viable option for a small minority of the population. The only places that have seen any meaningful adoption of EVs is because of government subsidies and incentives and cannot compete on an equal and fair market place for the fast majority of the population.
"This automobile fad is absurd, they cannot compete with the horsedrawn carriage industry" -HoldingThunder, circa 1910
I hope you have a spare hat, because you're going to eat yours
EVs will work for mass/full adoption when there are cheap, reliable supercapcitors and we have nuclear fission.
We will look back in the future and think how barbaric our batteries and the mining and everything is. It will happen one day. But not anytime soon.
Iām in China now. Half the cars on the streets are EVs, and last time I checked they arenāt running on supercapacitors and the power plants arenāt nuclear fusion plants.
> it will happen one day
For more progressive parts of the world, that day was yesterday.
China ' subsidizes on EVs:
Total Support (2009-2023): Around $230 billion, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).
Seems like a lot of subsidizing for something that "isn't subsidizes"
Tesla spent 5.9 Billion on R&D, the Chinese government subsidized 38 years of EV development (and counting). GM had a big initiative for EVs and only spent 35 billion.
Do you understand the difference between industrial policy (subsidize an industry) vs. subsidizing individual product?
If you donāt, stop commenting. What do you think the EV tax credits in the U.S are? Santa Claus money for the good boys?!
Jesus Christ
The cost of a product for a consumer to purchase is directly related on the cost to develop and manufactured that good.
To not accept or admit that subsidizing the r&d and production vehicles is the same as post sale tax credit is delusional. Both cases you are artificially lowering the cost for the consumer. They both use the same word, subsidy.
EVs cannot compete on an open market with ICE vehicles. Prove me wrong.
All of the R&D and manufacturing and design were paid for by the government. That is a SUBSIDY. Of course the price is artificially low because it was subsidized.
If Toyota was paid by the government to do everything but manufactured the car, the price of a Corolla would be half of what it is now, too.
No petrochemical company should get tax breaks. It's absurd, but also not a subsidy for an ICE vehicle. Don't change the subject just because you are wrong.
You said āfair and open marketā, Iām simply pointing out that without gas and oil subsidies, ICE cars would not be competitive.
Where the subsidy goes doesnāt matter, the end result is that cost of ownership for ICE cars are directly subsidizes by the government.
But electrical production is also subsidized. Huge government subsidizes for solar and wind projects, etc etc. And electrical rates are highly dependent based on region and market. This is highly subsidized by the government.
In most municipalities ICE vehicles are taxed for road maintenance and EVs are not. California actually had to reverse this as they could no longer generate revenues to maintain the roads. EVs are actually significantly heavier that ICE vehicles (passenger vehicles) and actually increase the rate of deterioration of our roads faster than ICE vehicle. So in fact they should pay MORE and not less than ICE vehicles when looking at fees for road maintenance and construction.
I was trying to pay a fair game and limit it to purchase price only, but EV vehicles are usually subsidized post-purchase as wall as pre-/purchase.
>Do you understand the difference between industrial policy (subsidize an industry) vs. subsidizing individual product?
You can't say "the cars aren't subsidized at all" and then say "well the industry itself is subsidized so that doesn't count"
these threads get weird af every time china EVs come up. I've never once seen so many people make such passionate comments for any countries automobiles since the US boomers of yore lol
Every single time China is even tangientally mentioned people just start foaming at the mouth lol
It's so stupid, 90% of the shit they think they know about China isn't even real...
Good news is CATL'S new sodium-ion batteries have removed all the expensive components from a battery. Sodium ion chemistry also do not lose efficiency in cold weather.
So it's cheap, and it's good for the cold. Perfect for entry level cars.
You are correct. That being said, I willfully disagree your opinion on EV progress.
I gotta go work so mabye I'll come back to this thread later. Cheers
There are a lot of technologies that are in development for ICE engines like Koenigsegg free-value and others that can potentially push ICE efficiency up to 50%, but if these aren't in production now, I don't think it practically matters. Innovation counts when it hits the market. Do formula 1engines being 50% efficient really matter in the real world for us? No.
Oh yes, the barbaric.. batteries? Meanwhile ICE is combusting single-use fossil fuels grossly inefficiently and releasing pollutants straight into our neighborhoods
Now *that's* barbaric
The energy density of gasoline is 45 MJ/kg for gasoline vs approx 0.54 MJ (equivalent)/kg fo electric batteries. That is 2 orders of magnitude different.
Is transportation a result of energy density? Oh no! It isn't? How much of that 45 MJ/kg actually reaches the road, huh Thunder? Because that picture, the actual useful metric regarding vehicle, is much less sympathetic to your weird, backward ludditry
Peak ICE energy efficiency at the wheels is *at best* 30% efficient (*barbaric!*), meanwhile EVs at worst manage 80% or above efficiency. You're being ridiculous and making yourself look a stubborn fool and I'm through entertaining the thought you have any ground to stand on. Have a good life huffing gasoline fumes I guess lol
Transportation isn't but it is a logical place to develop a technology from. That's why we effectively dropped electric vehicles production around 1908 when the model t was produced. It is why it drove nearly every industry.
> an overhaul of our entire electrical generation and distribution system
Yeah, this is the big one. The cars themselves are pretty rad, but we don't have the infrastructure to support them as a majority option. People who think EV's are the future are always shortsighted about this. And they're usually the same crowd who will protest new power plants being built to support that infrastructure.
Yup, and with that comes tax increases to support the infrastructure for the plant, as well as power rate increase. Because the electric companies do not front the cost for any of that - the taxpayer and electric user do!
> EVs haven't seen any meaningful innovation in many years and without a giant leap in battery technology and an overhaul of our entire electrical generation and distribution system
What?? We now have EVs which can [**charge 10 % to 70 % in 6 Minutes!**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nu2a0U9V14&t=110s)
Things like that were unbeliveable just a few years ago. 300-400 kW chargers are nowadays the standard for highway travel.
Installation of EV chargers is lagging behind sales of new EVs and in Canada we only have 1 public charger per 26 cars, below global average of 1:10 and there is still little/no infrastructure in rural Canada. The prospect of completing long road trips in an EV is not significantly different than it was 5 years ago.
Not a single country in the world has significant EV adoption without significant government subsidies or tax credits. EVs cannot compete with other vehicles on a fair and equal market place.
600km range
Charging 10-80% in under 20 minutes with HV charging
Nearly all having heat pumps now
Charging ports being cross compatible
Even less maintenance than before (control arm issues fixed)
Yea, no "meaningful innovation"
Divide that range by half in the winter. Tesla introduced fast charging in 2012. That is 14 years ago.
Cross compatible charging started in 2011. Widespread adoption 2019. That is still 7 years.
EVs started using heat pumps in 2013 with the Nissan leaf. 13 years.
Not recent.
Just because a manufacturer designs bad suspension, them fixing it should not be considered innovation, just doing what they should have in the first place.
>Divide that range by half in the winter.
Christ on a cracker, put down the anti-ev propaganda crack pipe; the cold weather hit isn't nearly that bad āĀ CR's independent testing puts it at [25%](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/how-much-do-cold-temperatures-affect-an-evs-driving-range-a5751769461/). And this is still improving.
>Tesla introduced fast charging in 2012.
Champ, Tesla V1 superchargers maxed out at around 100kW. The latest chargers in China do anywhere between 1200kW and 1500kW. Literally a 10x improvement. Put that fucking crack pipe down, good lord.
> Average cold weather hit isn't nearly that bad ā CR's independent testing puts it at 25%. And this is still improving year after year,
Yeah but, respectfully, they're full of shit.
I get 150wh/km in the best weather and 360+wh/km in the worst weather.
[This example is from yesterday](https://imgur.com/a/m9qMP5U)
That's not a 25% hit, it's more like a 60% hit. And worse yet in reality because you can't really use from 100% to 0%.
Realistically, in the real world, compared to claimed range? You get a 30-40% hit in the middle of the summer (30% from using only the middle 70% of the battery and 10% because conditions are never "ideal" and a 60-70% hit in the worst conditions.
I'm not anti EV but I like to talk about things in the real world since that's the one where I drive.
Last time I went snowboarding in a model 3, we charged it to 75% at a supercharger about 20 minutes away from the mountain and on our way back the battery was at 1% by the time we made it back to the same supercharger because it got down to 9 degrees and lost a ton of power just sitting in the parking lot. Itās not propaganda they absolutely suck ass in very cold weather.
That testing was at 16F or -9C. It was below -20 (-30 wind-chill) this morning and forecasted to be below -20 for most of this week. Obviously location matters but 1 test does not represent everyone, and -9 is not extremely. This does not scale linearly with temperature.
>Obviously location mattersĀ
Yeah dingus, that's precisely why you can't make broad statements like *"divide that range by half in the winter."*
Most of the Canadian population is \~100km from the border and 'winter' isn't a six month block of constant -20ĀŗC. You're right, one test does not represent everyone, nor even every time āĀ in aggregate-normal conditions, EV range loss is nowhere near 50%. For the third time now, *put the anti-propaganda crack pipe down.*
It's not crack, it's reality. Because the reality of EVs does not meet the propaganda. That's why as of 2024 nearly 40% of trade-in EVs were replaced by hybrid or gas vehicles.
By definition, innovation means successfully implementing new ideas, methods, products etc. that is literally what my argument is. There has been no meaningful implications of new technology or abilities of these vehicles in many years. Real world capabilities stalled 7-8 years ago
Real-world range values from friends who have EVs in real winter where temperatures regularly drop below -20 show that ranges of half are reasonable and expected in real life.
The certified range for the Ford lightning was also unrepresentative of actual pickup usage and they can barely get 140 km range towing an empty trailer is pretty useless.
> Charging 10-80% in under 20 minutes with HV charging
And in China you can get cars that charge at 1000KW, rapidly approaching the time it would take to fill up a fuel tank.
> havenāt seen any meaningful innovation in many years
Do we live in the same universe? The progress EVs have made in terms of performance, range and cost in the past 5 years is absolutely astonishing.
Do you think ICE has seen more innovation in the same period?
I donāt know about more but ICE isnāt standing still either. Fuel efficiency both in terms of distance per unit and power per unit have been steadily increasing. Cars that got 40mpg at 100hp 15 years ago are now 40mpg at 300hp+. Reliability in the extremes is increasing too. How many standard warranty off the lot 600+hp cars were there in 2010 vs today?
It honestly seems like hp has nearly doubled in the last 10-15 years and either kept the same efficiency or increased slightly. 300-400 used to be a lot, top of what cars would come with stock. Now thatās available in non-sport trim mid-tier cars and the upper end is 600-700.
I think itās fair to say _all_ technology is improving at a pretty impressive clip and only accelerating.
> Cars that got 40mpg at 100hp 15 years ago are now 40mpg at 300hp+.
Do you have any examples? I can't think of any models with that large of power differences off the top of my head.
that koenigsegg gemera is an extreme example but it highlights what they're getting at from such a price point. 2L 3 cylinder producing 600bhp lol not sure on the mpg there, I've seen 31mpg combined but not sure if that's the hybrid version or not
I don't think any changes in the EV market have done anything to meaningfully shift the scales for use cases of vehicles on sale. Nothing has shifted the usefulness of an EV from 5+ years ago where if an EV did not practically work for you, that still applies today.
If you look at technologies like free-valve, forced induction or more significantly hybrid technology has improved leaps and bounds for meaningful use cases where EV cars are effectively the same over the past 7+ years.
I donāt really agree that EVs are āeffectively the sameā as 5ā7 years ago in practical terms.
Range and charging crossed real thresholds. A 2018 EV with ~220 miles and limited fast charging is very different from todayās 300ā350 mile cars that can add ~200 miles in about 20 minutes. That alone changes road-trip viability and daily friction.
Efficiency improvements like heat pumps, battery preconditioning, and better cold-weather performance have also made EVs far more usable in non-ideal climates, which used to be a real weakness.
Charging infrastructure has continued to grow as well. The network is meaningfully denser than it was years ago, and if the government supported charging the way it has long supported gas infrastructure, the build-out would be even further along.
Hybrids have definitely improved, but EVs did not need radical new tech to change use cases. They needed better range, faster charging, and more infrastructure, and those have all moved enough to shift the equation for many people.
āEVs havenāt innovatedā ignores reality. Range, charging speed, efficiency, cold-weather performance, and battery longevity have all improved enough to change real-world usability, even without a magic battery breakthrough.
They also donāt need a total grid overhaul. Most charging is off-peak, infrastructure keeps scaling, and if charging had received the same decades of government support as gas, coverage would be far further along.
Subsidies didnāt create EV adoption any more than they created gas cars. They reduced early friction. EVs still wonāt fit everyone yet, but calling them viable for only a āsmall minorityā just doesnāt match how constraints and adoption have actually moved.
Ehm... no?
Vehicle production makes up around 15\~20% of lifetime emissions, more on an EV because they often have much lower lifetime emissions and higher production emissions.
This is not hard to Google.
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Canada has to figure out a way to ensure we have a domestic EV industry. China is unlikely to offshore production facilities here - they just cancelled a massive BYD factory for Mexico over fears that the US would steal their IP (hahaha).
Opening up to Chinese imports will hopefully improve Canada's leverage with the rest of the industry, and allow us to negotiate for domestic EV production.
The US and Canadian auto markets merged in the 1960's with the "AutoPact" trade deal, where Canada was guaranteed that for every vehicle sold in Canada, one would be produced in Canada.
This deal and others like it meant that Canada became a "branch plant" economy - we had the factories, but we didn't have the HQ or design divisions.
>You have no Canadian car brand.
A ton of components for cars are built and designed in Canada.
That's part of the reason why each Mustang GTD has all of its performance kit installed in Ontario.
I agree completely. It's all interdependent. EVs are the future but you need consumer EV demand to drive internal growth of the sector, which encourages industry investment. China can provide product for now to get early adopters to act as technological ambassador with minimum negative impact, then as demand increases and investment grows, Canada can then increase import duties to discourage consumer spending on foreign made EVs and encourage further internal infrastructure investment from the earlier brands that have already managed too much of a foothold in the market to sacrifice market share
The kind of long term planning that happens when there are actual adults in the room, us south of the border could do with a reminder of that
the biggest beneficiary is actually Tesla. They can start selling their LFP lower range models once again from Shanghai and probably has a even higher margin than importing from Germany
The only thing is in unless they are under 35K they can't come entirely. I know that a certain portion of the 49K quotes is earmarked for cars under 35K and I dont think the Tesla meets that requirement even from China.
Not sure if the 35k is actually a cap for their working,and seems like not all 49k cars need to be under 35k as well?but I also doubt carney just gives all the quota to Tesla that would be hilarious and defeats the point (and prob pisses china off too)
BYD has only surpassed Tesla this year, and thatās Tesla competing with the rest of the car makers while maintaining margins. Who knows how many of the other car makers will survive in another 5-10 years.
BYD should buy the Chrysler auto plant and start assembling cars here. Maybe that would kickstart the electric car industry into making more homegrown parts in Canada. I would buy one.
Give BYD the designs to the 300, Charger, Challenger and other Brampton large-body cars to be used for a North American take on large body, lower cost BYD EVs.
Besides, itās not like BYD could do any worse than Mopar engineering could do.
Doesn't make sense long term to do it in Ontario. Parts from China will need to go by ship over the pacific, and then rail across Canada to get to Ontario for final assembly. Better to build new factories in Alberta where land is cheap and it's closer to the coast.
Yes it does. You build a factory in the middle of nowhere and it will fail. The Chinese need to be where cars are already built. Itās the little things like switches and other things that are already in the loop.
As a proponent of Adam Smith this is a good thing. Forcing everyone to pay in total billions to support dead end manufacturing that is uncompetitive and incompetent is not the way forward. If you can get everyone cheap transport then do it. It helps our economy to cut off the dead weight of car manufacturers.
What are you talking about? Both Honda and Toyota have massive manufacturing presence in Canada, that employ tens of thousands of Canadians?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_of_Canada_Manufacturing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Manufacturing_Canada
if they can't compete on price (seeing as to how everyone seems to be foaming at the mouth to buy a cheap chinese ev to spite the yanks specifically), people are not going to care. they complain that nothing is made here anymore and that it's difficult to find locally made products, then they go and immediately buy dumped chinese shit, as if we didn't learn the lesson over and over again over the past decades with other market segments.
if people truly only wanted to spite the americans and thought for more than one second, they'd look at alternatives built here or made by the europeans/japanese/koreans instead of trying to subsidize chinese stuff. you can only sell so many cars, and if someone else goes and takes a massive part of the market, then that means it comes from elsewhere, and it's not only going to be the americans' share.
And if sales are strong, there is a very good chance the Chinese will make a Canadian factory since there are very strong supply chains already. It would also help them bypass the 6.1% tariffs for vehicles under 35,000.
The same reason GM has factories in the US instead of building everything in a low labour cost country.
Thereās costs to shipping cars across oceans. If you get enough volume, your variable costs will go up significantly.
China isn't going to open factories in Canada unless the US market is open to them. Canada simply isn't a big enough market for that type of investment.
The Canadian auto industry is already getting screwed by the new US policies. Opening trade with another partner is a smart move when you're historical ally turns his back on you
The BYD glaze on this site is honestly mind-boggling. The same people who are wanting better working conditions and higher-paying jobs here/Canada are the first in the line to buy a BYD. Domestic factories will just shut down, but at least you've got your Chinese car!
The direct subsidies have pretty much been cut off since 2018, because there used to be subsidy frauds like the infamous Jiangnan T11. Now the subsidy goes to components like chips, rather than the car companies
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From the wealth of nations,
"...it is the duty of the sovereign to maintain, at great publick expense, those works which no prudent merchant would undertake, being wholly unprofitable..."
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They lose their jobs because they canāt compete on price. So your choice is for the rest of society to basically pay welfare to support these unproductive people who go to work each day and destroy wealth with their labor. Fantastic.
Okay China shill lol. Canada doesnt exactly have much to fall back on. Have fun getting decimated by a loss leader from a hostile foreign nation who has endless cash to drown your domestic industries into the ground lol
Thatās called dumping and thatās an entirely different scenario. China does engage in dumping. But itās also true that Canadian factories are NOT competitive globally. Not just vs China.
China will car dump. They will loss lead because they those companies will want the market share. They literally do it with every industry they compete in. Are you a Chinese bit or something?
They do dump and need to be watched. But total car import ban means youāre not worried about dumping you actually just canāt compete.
And Canada canāt compete with China or most other low income nations. This is what it means when your wages go up, you are uncompetitive in labor.
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Yeah itās fairly short sighted. While cheap cars are nice, China takes a loss on each car sold because they try to undercut the competition (they can afford to take the hit) then sweep the local market so they can control the flow and price. Itās a tricky thing but thatās part of their playbook.
This like of saying has gone beyond misinformation and is just straight up propaganda now.
No, the cars arenāt sold at a loss, and they jack *up* prices when they export them because the domestic market is engaged in a price war, so they see foreign market as profit centers.
The Chinese EV companies are in the most cut throat capitalistic competition you can imagine and many of them wonāt survive the next 5 years, and many already have gone away, because the government isnāt propping them up.
Yeah it's my understanding that the Chinese government has pretty much pulled all the subsidies out of that industry. They want a death match to happen where only like 3-4 companies remain because they actually need that industry to consolidate now.
Yep, China subsidizes the crap out of the whole industry, but itās a survival of the fittest for the individual companies.
Now the subsidies are gone and people are surprised that some of the surviving companies are *really* fucking competitive lol.
>Now the subsidies are gone and people are surprised that some of the surviving companies areĀ *really*Ā fucking competitive lol.
And, local people don't know how these losers feeling.... I can understand why you not like China .
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Except that Chinese companies are not guided by the invisible hand of the market forces.
They are guided by partyās 5 year plans, loan guarantees, planned capacity edicts, with state signaling the companies that trade barriers will be brought down by various means available to the state. Pushing non-profit manufactured goods is their geopolitical strategy to strengthen their influence and coercive power in the world.
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holy shit carney actually did the talk.
oh man, byd is about to absolutely wreck the affordable ev market. if its cars get imported at the current price point (~35k cad), it will outclass everyone up to like 60k in interior quality and tech.
rip to us/jp/eu evs playing the 'ev is premium' game and price fixing at 50k
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In the first 3 quarters of 2025, Canada had 82895 new EV registrations. Assuming q4 went similar, let's say the total number is 110260.
44% of existing EV sales is what China is allowed to play with in Canada now. Neat.
Source: [StatsCan](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=2010002501)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Canada's auto market similar to the US's? In that buyers just aren't interested in cheap cars (at least, brand new ones)? I would think that if there was demand for <$25k USD cars the automakers would be selling them already.
I mean Iāve been to Canada 3 times in the last 2 years (Toronto, Montreal, Halifax and many points in between) and the mix of cars is nearly identical to what I saw in the US.
Huh? There is absolutely demand for low-price cars in the US. The Chevy Trax starts at $23,495 and was one of the best-selling cars of the year. The best-selling vehicle that's not a truck was the RAV4, which starts at $31,250, followed by the CR-V, which is around the same price. The best-selling sedan is the Camry at around $30,000. The Equinox was the tenth best-selling vehicle at 274,356 units sold and a starting price of $30,795. I could go on. (I'm using [this list](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g64457986/bestselling-cars-2025/) if you want a source.)
If there were high-quality cars selling for $25,000 or even less, people would be climbing over each other to buy them. I genuinely don't understand what you're even saying. Demand goes up as price goes down. That's like the first day of any Econ class lol
49,000 cars might not be enough to support full service and distribution in Canada.. I think the major portion of the quota will be given to the established brands, such as Tesla and Polestar.. which have factories in China..
It'd be nice if the Feds also decided EU regulation vehicles would be kosher on Canadian roads, then maybe Stellantis and VW could bring more of their EV lineups over without needing to re-engineer to meet CMVSS.
They can keep them they are complete and utter garbage. Some of the lowest rated vehicles in the industry. Which is why they are involved in multiple law suits.
China literally makes the best EV's in terms of performance and build quality. BYD has patents on the most advanced battery technology. The highest rated EV's all use BYD cells. Tesla. Porsche and Mercedes highest models all use components and tech from BYD.
BYD is a technology company. I was working them in 2005 when I first got hired into Computer Engineer. Now almost 21 years later they are larger than ever and used across the entire infosec/tech industry. Even when I pivoted to infosec a decade ago BYD was heavily involved.
To compete with the Chinese imports even at the tariffed rates, brands like Renault, Peugeot, and now VW all have EVs for under 25k euros.
If you go to their websites, the conversion only seems awful because of their high VAT on all vehicles being baked into the price. The prices are significantly lower than North America still and they have significantly more budget options than we do.
I think It's a wave of nostalgia hitting the auto industry, as the people that grew up with hot hatches now come into being able to afford them, hence the return of the Renault 5
Now all we need is a Golf R EV with AWD
I might have actually leased a Honda e if it had been offered in the U.S. Even if it wasn't nearly as pretty as the concept. Hell I'd get a Honda Super One if it were cheap enough too, but that'll never come here either.
Well it will at least make the other automakers start selling their cars cheaper. People are getting 200$ a month leases on a new Ioniq 5 in the USA. Here it's close to 700$. Even accounting for the currency we should be getting 280$ lease deals. Hoping the influx of Chinese EVs makes the other automakers sort their shit out.
Iām confident there will be limited overlap between the existing EV buyers (starting at 40k) and and buyers of Chinese EVs (hopefully a fair chunk less). We shall see, but Iām optimistic. Iām less optimistic about the fate of the Nissan Versa lol
Right, but it's also competing with ICE as well. It's not like evs exist in a vacuum.
So if this pricing pressure gets more people to switch to EVS, that's a net positive.
I mean in general marketplace competitiveness is pretty good
hopefully some day china starts also selling regular models from their many companies, from luxury to standard. that way we can finally purge canada of its american outlie
Are you stupid?
Just because things are peaceful now, doesn't mean they will change in the future.
Can you think of a time when Japan was aggressive towards Australia?
Yes, 80 years ago. Diplomatic relations have changed somewhat since then. Hypothetically the Japanese government could try to attack me, but that seems extremely unlikely based on everything we know.
Risk assessment is a combination of both potential harm and probability. The potential harm of Japanese attacking me is devastating, but the foreseeable probability is near zero - so the risk is actually low.
The Honda EV I'm interested in (Honda Super-One) doesn't have built in internet connectivity I think, so the Japanese could not remotely affect the car without someone locally choosing to connect to the car afaik.
>For me I'd rather China set up manufacturing here, so our auto manufacturing sector can stay alive and hopefully thrive.
obviously that's what everyone ideally wants, but they'll never do that. why would they open factories here when that would mean they'd have to pay a good wage to their employees instead of peanuts. that would also mean they can't do dumping and undersell everyone else. they (well, byd specifically) also decided against opening a factory in mexico because "they feared their tech/ip would be leaked in the us" lmao
they'd rather stay out of the market than build a factory here.
Carney was making statements that sounded like pretext for eventual manufacturing deals happening, but evidently there's nothing concrete enough to be announced now.
Overall, this is such a small number of vehicles in the grand scheme of things that it's unlikely to adversely affect our own auto sector much (none of the US brands manufacture passenger EVs in Canada anyway). Feels like more of a warning shot than anything.
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not unless Tesla slashes prices
>Part of the Chinese EV quota will be "*reserved for cars with an import price of $35,000 or less, Mr. Carney said. The proportion of the quota dedicated to this category will rise 50 per cent by 2030**
Iād assume itās going to make sense for China to enact export controls to favour their domestic makers first.
Tesla I believe only sold 25k cars in Canada last year, and their sales are further declining her anyways.
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That's what I am wondering. For this to benefit the North American market it needs to put pressure on Ford and GM.
If the Canadian auto industry disappears, then it's fair game for any manufacturer regardless of their origin to flood the market, and we'll start to see more European budget brands hitting the market as GM and Ford will collapse in Canada, only selling pick up trucks.
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Not surprised to hear since Carney just pledged his full support to the Communist Chinaās New World Order.
Like all countries that bow down or do deals with China it benefits them in the beginning but the chickens will one day come home to roost, and when thy do u will fall under Chinas full control.
No more environmental protection, no more religion, digital identity, social credit control, etc.
China sells everything so cheap and lends out all this money to all these countries in the ruse of being nice but they are just playing the long game and donāt care about you or your countries heritage or laws. They want world domination.
Enjoy your cheap cars for now.
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>> but they are just playing the long game and donāt care about you or your countries heritage or laws. They want world domination
Really? Is China kidnapping presidents and threatening to invade NATO countries?
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> no more religion
Lol what? Name a single country this has happened to cause China has been trading with the rest of the world for over three decades now.
Yeah....they don't have an auto industry to protect. Chinese auto exports are heavily subsidized by the government with the sole purpose of crushing competition. This has been there M.O. for YEARS.
>Yeah....they don't have an auto industry to protect.
Canada has a huge auto industry relative to its population size. Magna and Multimatic are Canadian.
Canada doesn't need more cars. They need better public infrastructures. Better trains, more routes; better buses, more routes
Ffs they been working on a 19km railway route for 15 years now and it still isnt ready. The cost was initially 5.3billion and it is now at 13+ billion dollars for a gawd damn 19km long route. (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-eglinton-crosstown-lrt-railway-project-wrong-toronto/)
China, japan do it in a few months.
Our politicians are just a bunch of money collecting, promise making bots, with no actual care for the better livelihood of their citizens.
I can't wait till this helps Crater EV prices.
I can't live a 100% EV life, but I can replace a few vehicles with them. Only thing holding me back is the current price doesn't make sense for my use cases.
Foreign competition will help. And then maybe some of these backwards looking myopic Americans will acknowledge that it was a mistake to stop subsidizing our domestic EV. manufacturing capability. Because China can do it cheaper and deliver Korean make level quality. It will definitely harm everyone else that is backing off EVs.
Love this, absolutely awesome! BYD design and build quality is excellent and without a doubt better than Tesla.
Motormouth did a segment on BYD from the Japan Mobility show.
Motormouth BYD Showcase
They're so damn nice, the first Chinese car that really vowed me was the BYD Tang, I was blown away when I sat in one when they first came here to Norway
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Thatās a great start. Will hopefully make the US wake up when they see the amazing low cost and high quality vehicles their neighbors are getting.
Congrats Canada for pushing forward! Very excited to see these on the road and in the hands of customers!
Damn literally just signed a lease too. Oh well, hopefully their selling infrastructure is set up and most of the options are available when my lease is up.
This is the headline theyāre going with but the actual important thing is the agricultural stuff, Iām excited for it.
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> He added that most of these cars would have an import price of less than $35,000 Canadian, or about $25,000 U.S. The average new vehicle costs around $63,000 Canadian.
$35K is about the price of a mid-level Civic in Canada, the cheapest practical electric, the Kia EV4 starts at $39k. This would be a real game changer and not even just for the EV market, but for the whole car market in general. Automakers donāt really want to produce many affordable cars, they would rather sell big SUVs with higher margins. I hope that Chinese automakers swooping in with value oriented cars will cause others to respond.
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Is china going to invest in building out charging infrastructure too? Im pleased with the news but EVs are going to disappear if nobody builds out the infrastructure for them.
I think this makes sense for several reasons. USA is creating conditions for automakers to abandon EVs and Canada wants EVs. We spent billions and billions on subsidies only to see several pack up and leave anyway.
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