What is the future of Bullpups?
Posted by StrangerOutrageous68@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 70 comments
Posted by StrangerOutrageous68@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 70 comments
SPECTREagent700@reddit
Continued success in video games and sci fi movies.
haydonclampitt@reddit
Bullpups in games will never go extinct as long as Bungie is in business lol
vkbrian@reddit
Nothing, probably. It’s a pseudo dead-end concept from a time when armies were still trying to get the “all in one” gun that could do everything. They definitely have a niche, but it’s bordering irrelevance nowadays. - A Bullpup Enjoyer
hnybadgdntcare@reddit
Agreed, good experimental design and I enjoy mine but it’s just nothing crazy beneficial in my opinion. And it’s just not an AR
Agammamon@reddit
The future is a strong niche with mall ninjas and most everyone else thinking they look cool but don't fit their use case.
Southpaw_pup@reddit
I doubt that bullpups will ever become a mainstream weapons platform, but seeing more and more aftermarket parts become available for them will at least guarantee a decent sized cult following
ga-co@reddit
I’m not apologizing for my DP12. It’s silly fun to shoot.
Southpaw_pup@reddit
You see the new SSR that’s getting released?
RedBeardedT@reddit
Desert Tech WLVRN Multi-caliber Bullpup
clanga-man@reddit
Ehhhh.. Hard to say for me.
Several countries still use them as their service weapon, armed security, or in police roles; and they do their job well, but they’ve hit their ceiling right now.
SilenceDobad76@reddit
SBR Bullpups are extremely underutilized as a concept. You can have MP5K sized rifles with 10.5 barrels.
Aside from that I think bullpups are somewhat niche and the benefit of an extra four inches of compact size doesnt make up for the ergonomic drawbacks.
I own an AUG, its just ok.
Leptonshavenocolor@reddit
What are the ergonomic issues you have (as a curious future BP owner)?
guilmon999@reddit
The 2 main ergo issues bullpups have that I can think of are
Short handguards and rail space. What you save in overall length you lose in rail space. This can be mitigated slightly by having longer barrels (longer barrel means you can have longer handguard)
Light front end. Most of the weight is pushed towards the back of the rifle so some bullpups can have squirrelly feeling recoil. This can also be mitigated by having a longer barrel. Or, throw a suppressor, flashlight, laser, etc, on the end of it and most of the squirrelly recoil goes away
RabicanShiver@reddit
The weight is actually an advantage, with the weight distributed to the rear of the rifle it makes maneuvering the rifle more... Searching for the right word here... In tune with your body? Imagine if you will walking around with a barbell with a 10 pound plate on the end. Put the 10 pound plate against your body and the light end of the bar won't pendulum swing as you move it. Put the heavy end away from your body and it does. I'm exaggerating the effect but the concept remains.
Leptonshavenocolor@reddit
Thanks, the build I’m working on looks to have plenty of space for accessories, I’ll have to pay attention to how stable it feels.
Soupcasebody@reddit
All great points. I’ll add watching people reload from the prone is hilarious.
some_kid6@reddit
It's amazing how short they get. Here's my 13" X95 next to my 11.5" AR and APC9 for reference. I can walk sideways through a doorway without needing to dip the barrel.
SilenceDobad76@reddit
*Would
JeanPascalCS@reddit
They're cool, but I honestly think as far as military use they're kind of a failed experiment. Not in the sense that they don't work, but more that they've been tried and people felt the tradeoffs weren't worth it. Most countries that went to them seem to be looking at more traditional rifles now.
I've got 2 of them myself - a Steyr Aug and a Bushmaster M17S. I wouldn't mind a Springfield Hellion and an FN2000.
UtgaardLoki@reddit
Integrated suppressors.
annonimity2@reddit
Personally I think alot of the downsides with bulpup in a military context are mitigated in a civilian setting.
Cross training isn't much of a problem for a civilian who has all the time in the world to dry fire and go to the range once a month.
The size benifits aren't that useful in a military setting because they are almost always overt and have the luxury of grenades for cqb, but in the civilian sphere where we have concepts like "bag gun" and "truck gun" and very little access to explosive ordinance it becomes much more significant.
As a lefty (eye dominance I'm not wrong handed) I am accutly aware of how bullpups are not designed with me in mind and this makes logistics a pain for militaries, however as a civilian who only has to do the conversion (or purchase) once and then it's not a huge issue unless I need to hand it off to someone else, which is what the sidearm is for.
Ok_Masterpiece5050@reddit
If you need to change shoulders though you’re still at the same problem.
VanillaIce315@reddit
The Tavor 7 is really cool in this aspect. Sure it does take a couple minutes, but ejection side and charging handle can be reversed at anytime without any additional parts necessary. And safety, mag release, and bolt release are already ambi. It’s really such a well designed firearm.
Shame the X95 wasn’t made with these design choices as well.
annonimity2@reddit
I've been trying to figure out if a left handed x95 SBR is possible with off the shelf parts, do you know what needs to chenge on the left hand kit and if it conflicts with the SBR conversion
VanillaIce315@reddit
The only thing needed should be a left handed bolt and a barrel wrench.
The only way I know of to get the bolt is to send the firearm to IWI for the initial conversion. It’s like $250, but it says it’s out of stock currently.
Fluffy-Map-5998@reddit
The size benefits would benefit vehicle crews and mounted units, but those advantages clearly weren't major enough to make a military keep bullpups over a more traditional layout
AdUpstairs7106@reddit
The military also wants to keep the AR controls to the extent possible as the military senior brass does not want to spend a lot of time and money retraining everyone.
Technically_Tactical@reddit
I'd actually argue the reverse:
The biggest IRL need for compactness is deploying out of vehicles. That was a big reason why the IDF was so vehement in Tavor adoption. Now with our modern understanding of ballistics and loads for short barrels (AKA if you're not getting it done with a 10.3" at common engagment ranges youre in 308 territory anyway) and proper tuning of MK18-style AR platforms, we see fewer bullpups
Any other situation, excess length is counteracted by training. Marines have cleared rooms in Fallujah with M16s and ACOGs...
annonimity2@reddit
Fair but deploying from a vehicle is also a civilian use case, not necessarily 10 guys stuffed into an APC tight but still a likely enough use case to train for.
BeenisHat@reddit
The future is probably much like the present. There's enough of a market to keep them around but they'll never get cheap enough to come close to supplanting cheap ARs because there's just not enough volume. Since most military bullpups are full auto, there won't be any entering the US via the surplus market. You might get a parts kit but then how do you get a receiver? All this meaning there won't be cheap former military bullpups available.
The prevalence of 5.56 NATO also doesn't help their popularity. That round has kind of hit it's limits in terms of effectiveness. Manufacturers have wrung just about every performance improvement they can from it. If you want longer range, you need a longer, heavier bullet that bucks wind better. If you want better short barrel performance, you need a bigger bullet. But 5.56 is THE standard many armies have agreed upon, so the improvements offered by the newer gen of intermediates like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel and 6mm ARC are largely going to remain a niche thing. And now with the ICAR using a different magazine (shared with the LWRC Six8) than STANAG, fragmentation only hurts adoption. Plus the US army went full r-slur with the M7 and 6.8x51. So you don't get the full benefits a bullpup offers and NATO militaries get adequate performance from 62gr M855A1 (or their equivalent) already.
And Internet operators have declared that ergonomics are incompatible with their desire to not actually train with their rifles and thus a reload that takes mere milliseconds longer than AR15 means instant death in a fire fight.
Bullpups are better, but they're not better enough than an AR to merit a change.
SetNo8186@reddit
They were a work around for gaining bullet speed with long barrels and also having short overall length for carry in combat vehicles. Overall tho, after coming out with prototypes in the 1960s and adoption of the Steyr AUG in the 70s, that's been about it, a niche application with the largest adopter the Chinese with the QBZ-95. In America the M4 remains the preferred choice.
Ergonomics of reloading and a step backward in trigger control are two issues most cite as significant disadvantages. The interesting part is a bullpup is what Bushmaster first produced, and they later abandoned it over poor sales.
Leptonshavenocolor@reddit
Interesting details, I didn’t know there was a bushmaster bullpup.
ChrisLS8@reddit
Im doing an 18" SRO conversion. Pretty excited to get it
guilmon999@reddit
I think bullpups shine when they're used in the extreme ends of barrel lengths.
Want an ultra compact SBR (10 ish inch barrel)? P90 or DT Micron.
Or on the other extreme a full length barrel (20+ inch) in a midsize package
Between 10 and 20 inch barrels should probably stay as conventional rifles for sake of ergonomics.
RabicanShiver@reddit
Try getting in or out of a vehicle with a full size rifle... My buddy has a tavor and that thing is super easy to carry, maneuver etc and still has the same long range capability of any regular "battle rifle".
guilmon999@reddit
I don't disagree, but it's hard to sell bullpups to the general public without leaning into bullpups unique strengths.
gecon@reddit
Agreed. You can either get a rifle caliber PDW or a high caliber rifle (50 bmg, 338 lapua, 300 win mag) in a smaller package without cutting the barrel too short
Leptonshavenocolor@reddit
I just bought a kit to build the SARB16, so it’s good for me.
SierraDespair@reddit
Just cool to own. I don’t care how impractical or ugly they are they’re just cool from a technical standpoint
Kr04704n@reddit
As a person who owned that desert tech piece of shit, it was a real piece of shit.
The future is probably larger calibers with vector style recoil mitigation.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
The future is anything but that. It doesn't mitigate recoil whatsoever. It directs the bolt downward. And then what? The direction of the bolt changed. :)
Kr04704n@reddit
Have you shot them full auto? I've shot a vector full auto vs mp5 / ar9 / ghm 9 and none mitigated recoil as well.
Fluffy-Map-5998@reddit
The big thing about the vector is that it supposedly does mitigate recoil fairly well,
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
The counterbalance recoil system mitigates recoil well.
GildSkiss@reddit
Can you expound on why you disliked it so much?
GrappleApparatus@reddit
Professional MDR hater here
Sent it back to Desert Tech four times because my MDRX could never flawlessly shoot an entire magazine and every time I got it back, the issue was not fixed. Very ridiculous parts breakages like my charging handles breaking. Twice. Critical parts are MIM like the trunnions. One of the procedures in cleaning the rifle includes CHECKING TORQUE SPECS ON ALL THE BOLTS. It’s absolutely garbage. X95 or Hellion all day.
Kr04704n@reddit
My precise experience i just saw this and posted it above.
Kr04704n@reddit
It was reliability related. I was an early adopter because the SRS platform was good to me (3 rifles, 14 calibers of barrels). Rifle could not go through 120 rounds without jamming. Sent it back and forth 5 times, with the issue never being fixed. They later contacted me saying that they had made improvements but would need to ship back on my dime to get them. They would not allow me to install parts. Some very dishonest mormons there.
coahnarlson@reddit
Not OP but had one and sold it. Main issue was reliability. I’m not one to ditch a gun that doesn’t run well if it’s cool enough, but the moment a casing got stuck in the ejection port you were stuck disassembling the damn thing. Even then the cases would lodge themselves super tight and you’d be digging them out with a tool. Ran fine without the ejector covers but at that point just get a more proven traditional bullpup.
_DeterPinklage_@reddit
I had the 7.62 one and enjoyed it, never gave me issues, ergonomically I just don’t like them or bullpups in general. The advantage of being short is also a draw back. There’s just not enough hand guard room for me to be totally comfortable, even with a vertical grip.
DrBadGuy1073@reddit
Kriss Vector 308/6.5 Creed when??
probablyMillhouse@reddit
I love my x95. Couple upgrades and the trigger is amazing. Much easier to hold up for longer than my other rifles. Compact af. Thousands of rounds and never a failure
cowboy3gunisfun@reddit
About the same as revolvers. Useful, certainly still will be sold, but replaced by better options.
makinupnames@reddit
Weird niche option with a dedicated group of apes insisting they are better.
Technically_Tactical@reddit
They're not better (or worse)... they're DIFFERENT.
makinupnames@reddit
No, they're worse.
Technically_Tactical@reddit
Depends on the make. Kel-Tec probably is worse across the board.
An off-the-rack X95 will cost double the minimally acceptable AR, but has its use cases where it outperforms.
FrenchFriedMushroom@reddit
I love my RDB, I have no idea what youre on about.
makinupnames@reddit
K
Technically_Tactical@reddit
You're so cool?
TooEZ_OL56@reddit
Destined to be adopted once Misriah Armory works out all the kinks
soapy5@reddit
Keltec rbd, but not made by coke heads.
More serious answer:
Rbd, with the following changes:
Thicker barrel Better optics rail mount Better handguard A way to inspect/access chamber opening (like fs2000) Better mag release Not a bolted together clamshell
NotJayKayPeeness@reddit
As the owner of both an FS2000 and an RDB, I was shocked when I brought the RDB home and took it apart for disassembly. The mag release is just a bent U shaped bar that pivots over the magwell, forcing the bars apart far enough to disengage the mag catch holes. The thing feels like a nerf gun when you take it apart. The hammer spring is LOUD when you dry fire.
Kr04704n@reddit
As a person who owned that desert tech piece of shit, it was a real piece of shit.
The future is probably larger calibers with vector style recoil mitigation.
czscorpion2@reddit
Definitely second this. The ergos on the DT were awsome. However after sending it back to the factory 4 or 5 times and still the gun would not work, I gave up and sold it. Now its some other poor soul's problem. Sorta sorry about that but I paid quite a bit for a jammomattic. Maybe he had luck and they eventually figured out how to make it work.
guilmon999@reddit
They came out with the WLVRN which is supposedly a lot better than the MDRx.
OG_Grandma@reddit
The future of bullpups is already somewhat here, in the form of AR compatible lowers. Triad, SRU, Reap, AKB23, and now the Olcan. AR parts compatibility will remove a lot of hurdles/hesitations some people had regarding parts availability etc.
vuther_316@reddit
More AR parts compatibility (there's a few promising projects for this) and increasing popularity.
CapnCurt81@reddit
I think they have a long and fulfilling future of being as dumb and irrelevant as they've ever been.
Billybob_Bojangles2@reddit
Dumpster