I agree with Xena about Hope (but she needs to work on her communication skills.)
Posted by SakuraTacos@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 59 comments
I’ll start with Xena’s defense: I believe Gabrielle was being manipulated by Dahak through Hope. Xena’s Spider Sense was tingling, the sky turned red and started storming, the animals were freaking out, and Latin Chanting Intensified. Not to mention the way Gabrielle miraculously recovered after the birth and said she felt, “like some power has just poured new life into me.” Which, yes, could just be the power of motherhood but I think that was Dahak.
But still, Your Honor, Xena gave Gabrielle and Hope the benefit of the doubt. Until a man lost his life with no one else in the room but a sleeping Gabrielle and Hope.
Now, let’s look at this from Gabrielle’s Point of View: You revere life and goodness, of course you’re going to latch onto seeing that in your own child. After all the pain and confusion of being tricked into a cult, losing your blood innocence, being impregnated by Dahak, and having a rapid hours-long pregnancy, you have this tiny little spark of hope that, now, your best friend has decided must die. The same best friend that you know has threatened to kill other men for trying to kill babies, that has even saved a baby’s life with you. And yet she’s sentenced yours to death without any evidence of what she claims. You’re halfway across the world (that you know) from home and you’ve got no one to turn to. That’s terrifying.
And those are just some things Xena probably should’ve considered before huffing and puffing up that mountain behind Gabrielle screaming “That thing you’re holding is a monster! It has to be destroyed!” As much as I agree with Xena, she did not present her case well, she looked insane and cruel, and I sympathize for Gabrielle.
Evilbuffy14@reddit
Yes, Xena was right about Hope. This scene bothered me, though. I strongly believe that no matter the circumstances, Gabrielle would never run from Xena. I had trouble reconciling this in my brain.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
But Gabrielle also wouldn’t allow Xena to kill her child. Regardless, if she was right. Neither would she.
Plus, Gabrielle hasn’t fully recovered from her trauma in the previous episode of Deliverer.
Evilbuffy14@reddit
Fair points. Would have preferred her to stay and fight, not flee, though.
multiplecats@reddit
I sometimes think Michael wanted Dahak in the world and this set everything up perfectly for the insane shiz he does in the Herc ep "Revelation", which occurs alongside or just slightly before Xena and Gab are crucified by Brutus for Caesar. Xena's perfect act-first-questions-later would absolutely fry any trust Gabrielle had for her after Xena abandoned her (for the 437th time) with random strangers so she can go do her warrior fun. That sets it up so Ares can just knock her over with a light breeze, taking out Michael's other competition besides Herc.
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
I didn’t realize Michael appeared in Hercules also. I could believe Michael wanting that, he’s so underhanded and manipulative for an angel, I can’t stand him
Warrioress_@reddit
This whole situation was so heartrending to watch, hurts me every time because I agree with op in that xena could definitely have been more sensitive about it. I put her lack of empathy down to her ruthless warrior insincts kicking in in the face of evil like Dahak, we forget sometimes how merciless she can be, I think when we see her becoming more morally balanced and good throughout the show up to this point. In other situations like with the Horde we have Gabrielle to bring her back into balance but when Gabrielle is the one she is trying to stop AND protect at once, everything gets so messy and Gabrielle cannot be the one to show her there is another way in a situation like this.
The S3 rift in general is mostly well written but if I wished for one thing it would be for even a tiny scene either in S3 where xena acknowledges, even briefly that she can see how difficult it must be to believe the baby that came from Gabrielle's own body - no matter how weird the circumstances - is pure evil.
Or in s5, where we might have had even one small conversation about Gabrielle's fears based on her experience with Hope and Xena hearing her out and being understanding.
I like to believe, like many "heavily implied" things we got in this show, they had one of these two conversations off screen between episodes.
Random side note - I just finished s5 in my rewatch and genuinely had a dream about them having a conversation like this and woke up so certain it was canon that I spent a whole day trying to remember which episode it was in 😂😂
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
I have to do some mental gymnastics, write some in-the-moment fan fiction whenever I watch how insensitive Xena is in this ep. I’m like “She can’t afford to be emotional, it’s too hard to see Gabrielle go through this, she has to be tough!”
But then I think, “So… the alternative is to treat Gabrielle like that and make her go through this alone?”
It looks a little insane to hunt down your best friend and her not-yet-proven-guilty infant like that, that was wild, Xena.
And then, like you said, for it not to come up again in S5 is like “Welp, I guess Gabrielle left that conversation out of the scrolls because I don’t believe they wouldn’t have that conversation.”
Warrioress_@reddit
It's so tough! The writing is just really good when you think about it, each character stays true to their personalities that have been shaped by their individual pasts etc and then the writers put them in these extreme situations thay bring out the worst /most ruthless versions of themselves.
And then we get to have conversations like this because it's so emotive and interesting to disect it. Storytelling that prompts moral conversations is my favourite kind.
I mean Gabrielle kept a lot of their more intimate moments private wink so to headcanon her keeping some difficult conversations out of the scrolls could make sense too 🙂↕️🤔
IseQween@reddit
You hit on what (besides Xena herself) drew me into XWP -- characters acting like flawed humans during moral conundrums, the audience being left to supply the dialogue/motivations about what must've been going on the characters' heads or between the lines.
As you say, Xena defaulted to practical "surely you can see how the pieces add up and that the result must be killed" mode, with "see, I'm saying it in a heartfelt manner," to soften her words. Gabs' default is, "I can't talk sense into her when she's like this. I'll just run off, do what I want, apologetically echo her logical arguments so she thinks she's really gotten her own way as usual."
I love the moments when they show their clay feet. If they'd been portrayed as models of sensitivity and wisdom, I'd've been bored out of my skull. "Catch her, Xena! Don't let her prove she could be wrong." "Run, Gabs! Give yourself a chance to prove you might be right."
Agent8699@reddit
Xena does “insane and cruel” well. It was her default mode for 10 years after all.
And after being prevented from quenching her thirst for revenge on Caesar, Xena needed something to kill to justify everything they had gone through. Plus, she was peeved at Khrafstar for so easily manipulating her into going to Britain in the first place.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Do you really think she wanted to kill Hope because she was *frustrated* at not having killed Caesar? She killed Krafstar in a pretty big fight. And she can't actually blame Krafstar for her wanting to go to Britannia - he simply set the scene, mentioning Caesar in Britannia. It was Xena's choice to go there, after all, to try and defeat him.
Agent8699@reddit
Removing tongue from cheek, I do think Xena was reeling after the events of Britain and needed to be the hero, needed to find an evil to conquer and needed to save Gabrielle.
So, Xena fixated on Hope as being the “evil” that she needed to defeat to save Gabrielle.
This was the first time, in quite a while, that Xena was so magnificently played by anyone and it was Khrafstar / Dahak and Caesar who (unknowingly) together got Gabrielle to Britain, had her kidnapped and crucified, which then drove her into the arms of Khrafstar and resulted in her being tricked into killing for the first time and being raped and impregnated. That’s a lot and it was Xena’s decision to go to Britain because she wanted vengeance on Caesar.
This ties into The Debt where Xena is once again quick to want to commit murder when presented with an “evil” to be defeated. Xena jumps straight to murdering the teenage (?) Ming Tien because he is presented, in her mind, as an evil which can be conquered, irrespective of the true meaning of Lao Ma’s message or the huge role that Xena played in turning Ming Tien into the person he became after kidnapping and entombing him, murdering his father and trying to kill him (not to mention aligning with Lao Ma who wanted to conquer and rule his inherited territory).
Xena was so desperate to be right about Hope and Ming Tien and so desperate to “defeat” the evil through murder that she couldn’t allow herself to second guess how or even if she should proceed.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
What did you think the real meaning of Lao Ma's message was?
Agent8699@reddit
The note - to make Ming Tien “small” aka remove him from power.
The hair pin - to kill Ming Tien, but that was unknown to Xena when she stripped naked, covered herself in mud and snuck into his bedroom to murder him.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
And of course you have to wonder WHY did Xena have to be naked and covered in mud to sneak into the palace? Was she worried that the candle light would reflect on her brass armour? She could have gone in there just wearing her leathers or did she think they'd creak too much? I mean, surely, it couldn't have been just to be tantalising to the audience!!!
Agent8699@reddit
Wasn’t Xena just copying something she’d seen in a movie 😅
I mean, her creative juices don’t all flow naturally.
IseQween@reddit
Lucy: Hey, what's all this "blah blah" Xena does about Hope? Since when does Xena do endless exposition?
Xenastaff: Well, we just did this inexplicable ep that'll go over the casual viewer's head. Even regular viewers' heads. Unfortunately, there's no side character to summarize what's gone on.
Lucy: Isn't that what ... um ... [sheepishly glances at Renee], you know ...
Renee: Oh, no. We're past chatty "early" Gabrielle. Besides, I'm running from "relentless" Xena, slogging up a hill in this gunny sack with a "baby" in my arms. I can't exactly pause every now and then to throw dialogue over my shoulder.
Lucy: As opposed yakking while riding a horse, jumping off, trekking after you and up the same hill?
Xenastaff: Sorry, Luce, there's nobody else.
Lucy: What about the guy Gabs got the boat from? [Ducks her head at Xenastaff's eye rolls] Crap. Where's Minya when you need her.
Renee [Smirking]: To quote Callisto, "hurts, doesn't it?"
Lucy [Growling]: Why I oughtta .... [Sighs resignedly] Rats.
Xenastaff: Ok, then. Speaking of rats, let's move on to the fun part in the cave, where the girls....
Agent8699@reddit
Xena desperately trying to convince herself she’s doing the right thing!
After all, trying to murder children isn’t new to her - Ming Tien, Otere and probably others.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
This response exactly makes me think about that other conundrum that has been discussed many times on this forum - when do we place the burning of Cirra?
Some say it happened after she came back from Chin, but by then she's far too wild and has already threated to kill children, like Ming Tien and Otere.
So surely it must have happened before she met Caesar whose actions turned Xena feral, because until Cirra she tells Gabrielle that she never killed women and children.
Of course the irony of this is that in the Hercules trilogy, which happens AFTER all these other things, she reverts back to the not killing women and children - somewhat hypocriticial considering what she's done and one of the BIGGEST continuity issues the series made, I believe.
Agent8699@reddit
Cirra is difficult to place for many reasons. It mostly works pre-Caesar given Callisto is around 12–ish, so if we add 10 or so years, the age seems about right for Callisto in season 1.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Thank you! Those are my thoughts too. Didn't realise we were on the same page about something Xena-related, apart from being obsessive fans of course....... 😊
Agent8699@reddit
Hey, I resemble that remark!
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
I’m lmao! Xena’s gotta be her own sidekick to exposition dump on! It’s so sloggy and awkward, fumbling up the mountainside shouting off terrible things to Gabrielle’s back 😂
For goodness’ sake, don’t worry about trying to fill in the people just tuning in. If they’re confused about why Xena’s trying to kill Gabrielle’s baby, at this point, they just gotta come along for the ride!
IseQween@reddit
LOL! I bet Lucy would agree with you. I sure do.
Advanced-Log5899@reddit
Xena has been very insensitive at this point, let's remember that when our warrior princess got pregnant in season 5 she said she felt that the mysterious creature she was carrying was "Good", terrible character writing because it needed a confrontation between Gabrielle Xena, where Gabrielle would have doubted the pregnancy as in the past Xena doubted Hope.
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
I’m forever frustrated by Animal Instincts when Xena’s like “Idk how this happened but I can sense it’s good” But I think Gabrielle would’ve shown some concern about another Hope situation if Xena was so adamant she didn’t know where the baby came from. I was so disappointed the subject doesn’t come up again during Xena’s pregnancy because I just feel so strongly that Gabrielle wouldn’t have let that go after one handwave by Xena but she’d sooner grill her on who she slept with? Nah
I felt better with some of the closure they got in The Abyss’ cave scene. Someone somewhere along the way also realized how much of a jerk Xena came off lol
Warrioress_@reddit
I've actually somewhat forgotten the exact dialogue of that cave scene - don't remember the closure part - but it's soon on my rewatch so more curious to see it again now!
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Renee said “I don’t believe Hope played into Gabrielle’s feelings [to Xena’s pregnancy] at all. That’s been put to bed. It’s just – can you imagine your best friend telling you they’re pregnant?… She just can’t understand how or when. I thought that was well written. All those questions spilled out at the same time.” (The Chakram Newsletter: #10), https://jacksonupperco.com/2015/01/22/the-xena-scrolls-an-opinionated-episode-guide-503-504/
Warrioress_@reddit
Oh this is so nice to read! I like to lean into what actors believe of their character's feelings and reactions - since they are essentially them - so I'll personally, happily accept this to be the canon situation then! 😌
I still wouldn't have minded a verbal on screen acknowledement of Gabrielle's pain over Hope from Xena in S3 but welp, I'll just continue to headcanon an off screen conversion for myself, since that's kinda what the scene in the Abyss implies too 🙂↕️
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
It does seem like it was a bit of an oversight by the writers, certainly a missed opportunity.
jdpm1991@reddit
G: "Hope?"
X: "Did you say something?"
G [Whispers]: "My baby. My baby. Is that you?"
X [Whispers]: "Yeah, it's me."
G [Whispers]: "I love you. [Softly] I would never hurt you.
You know that, don't you?"
X: "I know."
G [Whispers]: "You're my child. You have to go. She'll hurt
you. She'll take you away from me."
X: "You have to rest. You don't have to go anywhere."
G [Whispers]: "You don't understand."
X: "I _do_ understand. I understand everything."
Warrioress_@reddit
Gosh, ouch my heart 😭😭 thanks for the transcript!
Supports my head canon that they've had more conversations on that subject than we've seen on screen 🙂↕️🙌
Popular-One-7051@reddit
Yeah I just watched that on tv yesterday and wondering the same things. Gabrielle gave Xena a lot of side eye and asking if she was SURE she didn't know how she got pregnant. I wondered why Hope wasn't brought up. Maybe not wanting to throw something else into the plot was all I could think of.
Agent8699@reddit
Yes Xena.
You were very recently:
but, of course, this mysterious and unplanned / unknown pregnancy is “good” 🙄
jdpm1991@reddit
Xena was a fucking hypocrite when it came to Eve.
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
Xena’s a beautiful, majestic hypocrite the whole dang entire time. She lives by “Do as I say, not as I do.”
It’s a sweet moment but I chuckle incredulously in Legacy when they’re like
G: "You saved me today, Xena, against the greater good. Why? Isn't that what we've been fighting for?"
X: "Gabrielle, in everyone's life, there's something that goes beyond the greater good. That's what you are in my life. I wasn't about to let you die out there if there was something I could do about it."
G: "What if it was my choice?"
X: "Especially if it was your choice."
[Me, gesturing wildly @ Xena stopping Gabrielle in the finale]
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
If the roles had been reversed in AFIN, for sure I can see Xena resurrecting Gabrielle by putting her ashes into that fountain, even if Gabrielle had said no, don't do that, don't bring me back.
Xena was quite selfish really.
Just consider the number of times she, Xena, made out with men as part of "the plan" yet she got super-jealous of Gabby making out with Virgil which was also probably a part of "the plan" just one where Gabby gets the guy this time around, sort of, in Heart of Darkness.
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
Cold, hard facts! She can be very “Rules for thee, not for me.” For someone who fights to defend the masses, and despite hailing from the birthplace of democracy, she’s not a very democratic leader. Her choices are not up for debate but your choices are subject to change at her discretion
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I like that expression "Rules for thee, not for me." I'm gonna use that in the future.......
queeeeeni@reddit
How? Hope is a demon baby, Eve was literally the spirit of Callisto. Callistos entire theme is that evil was made by life events and trauma, Hope's is the demons are born evil and are unredeemable.
jdpm1991@reddit
she was also half human
queeeeeni@reddit
no, she was a demon in a skin suit. otherwise she wouldn't be a clone of Gabrielle.
queeeeeni@reddit
Xena is right. Bit insensitive but completely right.
I'm assuming Gabrielle is on some epic stupidity hormones to have forgotten the baby she's holding came from being raped by fire in a satanic temple. Demons worship it and it killed within hours of being born.
Xena trying to argue away hormones and maternal instincts with "you're looking at it like it's a real baby" ... yeah, not sure why you're surprised that didn't work Xena?
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
That’s what always gets to me! Xena has Dahak’s influence and Gabrielle’s hormones to contend with and that’s how she thought she was going to convince Gabrielle. Girl, you look like the monster right now, not Hope!
That’s why I tell myself Xena’s brain was short circuiting from her panic because Xena’s usually smarter than that!
EBJ1990@reddit
I hated how Xena handled this, she was awful to someone who was supposedly her friend and ended up being a complete hypocrite with Eve/Livia. Gabrielle could do what Xena couldn’t.
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
YES, all of that! Eve killed so many more people than Hope had and Xena still put down her weapon, not Gabby. TWICE. Gabrielle could do what Xena couldn’t twice. 😮💨
Agent8699@reddit
Twice?
That’s three times. Not including unknowingly burning her child alive on the funeral pyre!
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Disagree with that last one - Hope was dead on the funeral pyre. It was as her ashes rose, imo, that Dahak coalesced them back into a new form, i.e. resurrected her.
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
I didn’t know if to count that last one because technically Xena killed the Destroyer (isn’t it so cute how he was named after his step-grandma) who then killed Hope but, you’re right, Gab should get credit for helping
Agent8699@reddit
Yes, but the Destroyer killed Hope. And Gabrielle was instrumental in that happening by distracting the Destroyer by pretending to be Hope.
So, Gabrielle killed Hope (again) by using the Destroyer as a god killing weapon.
EBJ1990@reddit
Exactly, poor Gabby.
LilyofTheValley_7@reddit
All Imma say is, Gabby is better than me because after all of this, Xena still tried to leave me, would've stayed in my villain era 😭😭
Especially with the whole hope/eve parallel
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Xena maybe right about Hope, but the way she to handle it was badly done. Which what made Gabrielle save her child from Xena.
Fuzzy_Ability8284@reddit
Hope/Dahak was my favorite arch in Xena, I hated that it was concluded in Hercules.
Particular-Employ326@reddit
Can you remind me how it was concluded in Hercules? I thought it ended in Xena the next season when she was adult
Fuzzy_Ability8284@reddit
For Hope probably but Dahak appears in Hercules when he possesses Iolaus, idk the episode name but Dahak possesses Iolaus and kicks the shit out of Hercules iirc.
Particular-Employ326@reddit
I see. Thanks for the info :)
giveherawinkforme@reddit
It's the way that she could easily flip and twist her way up to gabby in an instant if she really wanted to but takes small steps and tries to explain the best she knows how 🥺🤏
SakuraTacos@reddit (OP)
Omg I feel like they’re running forever lmao! This scene is so long and there’s just minute long moments of Gabrielle wordlessly running (up that hill)