Why do people think the term “black” defines a race?

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Maleficent-Win-6520@reddit

Ginger is not a race. Black, yellow and white are seen as a race. It comes from the days a class and empire building.

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My argument is “ginger” is a shortcut to Irish, Welsh, Scottish which historically were oppressed and considered inferior to English. We still see remnants of that although it’s no longer considered as such a serious thing to disparage someone about.

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Maleficent-Win-6520@reddit

I’ve never known the term ginger to be referred just to the Irish or Scottish. It refers to many English too. I’m English and I have a ginger beard. That is because of my Nordic roots.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

My understanding is that, that is the historical roots of using “ginger” as a derogatory term. Dating back to periods of high immigration into England as the result of the lack of work in Ireland and Scotland. It was not unusual for businesses and lodging to put up signs saying “no Irish”, for example. I didn’t say it was an accurate physiological identifier.

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Maleficent-Win-6520@reddit

I remember the no Irish and no blacks signs in pubs and businesses.

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PM_ME_UR_VULVASAUR_@reddit

A couple of G's, jeez, unless you've had to live it An R and an E, even I am careful with it An I and an N, and in the end it will only offend Don't want to have to spell it out again Yeah Only a ginger can call another ginger Ginger Only a ginger can call another ginger Ginger

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Dazz316@reddit

You're going about this the wrong way. This is a social issue, not a biological one. If someone in a lab is doing it, maybe you're right depending on what you're doing. But we arne't in a lab. When some racist is saying he hates black people and white people are the right race, he isn't talking about ginger people but people with darker skin.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

My argument is “ginger” is a shortcut to Irish, Welsh, Scottish which historically were oppressed and considered inferior to English. We still see remnants of that although it’s no longer considered as such a serious thing to disparage someone about.

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split-tennisball@reddit

You're really trying with this question aren't you. Is this the third post?

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

Nope. No other posts were mine. I saw the other post being taken down. And it triggered me. My half Irish ginger haired child got called a “ginger c**t” at school, as far as I’m concerned that’s as equally racist as calling a child a “black c**t”.

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Traditional_Low_7219@reddit

Lol you should have led with that in the post. It's not racist, but it is a form of discrimination. Your child shouldn't have been called that name, but that's just how some kids act in school unfortunately. Seems like you are not willing to change your mind though. I think you just want to vent and have someone to agree with you or listen to you.

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Visual-Maximum-1008@reddit

Irish people have faced widespread discrimination but they were never formally defined as a 'race' in any meaningful sense. Race is a specific historical concept and it was usually legally defined *explicitly*, in black and white. There were just some people who were legally considered 'one race' and people who weren't. The Irish weren't, ever. Is there anti-Irish bigotry? *Absolutely.* Was it *racism*? No, because they weren't a race. They aren't a race. They've never been a race. There were a few bigoted anti-Irish people who *wanted* to make Irish people a race. But lots of people had lots of ideas about which people could be a race back then, because people went fucking crazy for racial categorization and they were gagging to put everyone in boxes. The idea of being racist towards Irish people really excited a few, and they wrote some articles and books about the idea, but they never succeeded and the Irish were never formally classified as a race, ever. So, at best, some old guys from hundreds of years ago were sort of almost racist towards Irish people. And even then, they universally thought Irish people still should be treated better than black people. The main issue with making the Irish a race was, and always has been, that Irish people overwhelmingly look the exact fucking same other white people. Especially the English, who were the main people who wanted to be anti-Irish. If you go to Ireland most people do not have ginger hair, and plenty of English people do. Being ginger isn't a meaningful indicator of being Irish (nevermind 'of the Irish race') except to schoolchildren and insane people. Irish people had a fucking awful time of it, but overwhelmingly because of their visible historical and cultural background, not their appearance or physicality.

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Dazz316@reddit

No, ginger is just ginger. It means ginger hair. Am English person with ginger hair is ginger. A french person with ginger hair is ginger. Ginger means ginger hair. You're overthinking this.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

I disagree. It has historical roots as derogatory.

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I_am_legend-ary@reddit

You are reaching with this. Ginger is all about hair colour, no different to “dumb blonds” It has nothing to do with being Irish,

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

So out of nowhere the UK decided ginger hair was something to make fun of people about?

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Dazz316@reddit

No, it won't be out of nowhere. But you saying that is still you fundamentally not getting what we're telling you and you still refusing to not overthink this. The historical context is irrelevant now. It's not involved. When someone makes a ginger joke joke, whatever history is behind it isn't involved. Nobody goes up to their ginger mate and thinks "well, back in 1743 this thing happened so I better make fun of him". No, he wants to crack a joke at his mate and uses the fact he's ginger to do so. He could have used him being tall, skin colour, eye position, dick size, feet size, whatever. My mate had huge teeth, we used to tease him about that. Does that have historical context? No, he just had big teeth. Another friend had curly hair, so sometimes he got a joke about that. I'm fat, another was short etc etc etc. You're just making jokes about a thing, whatever history is involved doesn't matter. Any argument you can think of regarding historical context, eliminate it as it isn't involved. It's over there behind a door doing it's own thing. We're over here doing our own thing.

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I_am_legend-ary@reddit

I’m talking about the current usage Calling somebody a ginger prick is no different to blonde prick, tall prick, short prick, ugly prick

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Dazz316@reddit

Historical roots mean nothing. How is used is what it is, and ginger means people with ginger hair. There's ginger black people. Take the word gay, would you argue it means happy? If someone comes out as gay that just means they're in a good mood that day? Again, you are over complicating this. You can argue all day. But ginger just means ginger hair. The reason it's unpopular is because you're wrong. How it *used* to be used is irrelevant to how it *is* used.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

Black can just be black can’t it, like a black pen. What matters is the context it’s being used. But I do conceed that the term “ginger” has lost some of its direct connection to a specific diaspora in a way Black hasn’t. And “Ginger” requires more direct context to associate it with Celtic heritage. Usually put into a derogatory context. Gods thought exercise. Many thanks for the input.

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Dazz316@reddit

You start off right. Black can just be black can't it? Yes. Yes that's right. So ginger can just be ginger can't it? Ginger just referes to people with ginger hair. It's nothing to do with celtic heritage. Gingers get made fun of all the time all over the UK. A Scottish person will make fun of a ginger Englishman, is it because of their celtic heritage? No. It's because their hair is ginger. That's it, that's all it is. Stop talking about heritage, nobody cares. Their hair is ginger.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

Why is their hair being ginger something to be made fun of?

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Dazz316@reddit

Blondes are made fun of all the time for being stupid. Just Google blonde jokes, tons of them.

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DangerousDisplay7664@reddit

That's not right. At all.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

Please explain to me how “black” defines a single race of people. I’m absolutely open to being convinced.

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Visual-Maximum-1008@reddit

Because that's what [the people who invented racism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism) said. You can see from the definitions of François Bernier, Richard Bradley, Carl Linnaeus etc. that nearly all the anthropologists of the time all agreed with each other that there was something called a 'black race' (or other, more offensive, terms) with dark skin, from Africa, and with various other features that form the basis of racism towards black people. These people defined racism, because they were widely accepted and believed. Their ideas were drafted explicitly into law in many countries, including the United States, and accepted as scientific truth by most European powers. If you Ctrl+F for ''Irish" on the same page, you'll see one (1) drawing by an obscure aristocrat claiming Irish people might be a race, but this guy had no credentials and also believed in a conspiracy theory that the Irish people are actually Spanish, so probably was considered a bit of a crackpot, even in his time. One of these ideas was taken very seriously and had a big effect on the world. The other didn't. Anything else is historical revisionism.

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lovelight@reddit

No. That's not our job. If you can't understand go and educate yourself.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

How does one education themselves when other people refuse to teach them? This is a classic disingenuous response from someone who doesn’t actually have a rational behind their position.

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lovelight@reddit

Ok here's some education. Please don't put the burden of explanation on others espeically if they are the ones in the groups you are talking about. Google is free. Do the leg work and make yourself a better person. You've seen the response, learn from it.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

lol! So you come on, state a position but refuse to explain it. I hope that doesn’t flow through to your work and parenting (if you are one).

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AskUK-ModTeam@reddit

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NewsFromBoilingWell@reddit

It is not "just" a shorthand way of referring to someone's background though, is it? Race is a social construct that carries with it a lot of preconceptions.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

My argument is “ginger” is a shortcut to Irish, Welsh, Scottish which historically were oppressed and considered inferior to English. We still see remnants of that although it’s no longer considered as such a serious thing to disparage someone about.

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ActionBirbie@reddit

> “ginger” is a shortcut to Irish, Welsh, Scottish Are you sure of this? Sounds like one of those insane "backronym" bits of historical revisionism that yanks come up with.

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Traditional_Low_7219@reddit

You cannot compare being black to being ginger. Both of these are completely different. >*"My argument is “ginger” is a shortcut to Irish, Welsh, Scottish which historically were oppressed and considered inferior to English. We still see remnants of that although it’s no longer considered as such a serious thing to disparage someone about."* You cannot compare the two. Historically, there has been no revolution, legislation, or social movemements to give ginger people the same rights as white people because they are seen as human. Black people had to fight for civil rights, fight to be seen as equal, fight to have a place in society. Did you know that black women in the US and UK often have poorer maternal health outcomes than white women, regardless of income or education. Being black is also not a shortcut to Nigerian, Ghanian, Jamaican. People that are Nigerian will tell you they are Nigerian. Blackness acts as a complex identity that intersects biology, sociology, history, and culture. The problem is that you simplify it to purely genetic origins. >Please explain to me how “black” defines a single race of people. I’m absolutely open to being convinced. The classification of black people as a single race is a complex issue that varies by location and is very context-depedant. There are societal issues that black people can universally experience such as racism. For example, a Nigerian and a Jamaican have different genetic histories, but they are often treated the same by a police officer in London or a bank in New York. Whereas in countries like Brazil, there are people with black skin tones that do not identify as black. This is different depending on where you go. In the UK, if you mention "black" people as a race, 9 times out of 10, people will know who you are speaking about. Ultimately, whether black people are grouped into a single race depends on where you live. In the US and the UK, the shared social and political reality effectively consolidates blackness into a single racial identity. \*\*Forgive for any typos/grammar mistakes. I did not proof read this at all.\*\*

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Ysiadio@reddit

Because of hundreds of years of people being racialised on the basis of that skin colour and legally and socially discriminated against. The Yanks fought an actual civil war to keep black people enslaved, mate, with thousands dead. It's just a much more significant category than ginger hair. Even today, someone identified as 'black' is likely to receive significantly different treatment in many situations than a 'ginger' person.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

My argument is “ginger” is a shortcut to Irish, Welsh, Scottish which historically were oppressed and considered inferior to English. We still see remnants of that although it’s no longer considered as such a serious thing to disparage someone about.

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Ysiadio@reddit

Celtic people did historically face discrimination, but not nearly as systematically or globally as black people have, and such discrimination is largely historical as you have noted, whereas racism against black people is regrettably very common to this day.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

I agree on both counts. That doesn’t mean that using “ginger” in a derogatory context isn’t a remnant of historical racism in English society.

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Ysiadio@reddit

But it does mean that drawing a direct equivalence might be seen as harmful, as you're elevating an, as you have admittedly, largely no longer serious issue to be the equal of an issue that doing an ongoing harm to millions of people. Black people experience discrimination daily all over the world - not just being called names, but losing out on employment opportunities, healthcare, facing violence and bigotry.

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

I absolutely agree unquestionably about the relative seriousness of the comparison.

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DisastrousHelp8149@reddit

Because we describe race primarily with reference to skin colour of those groups. Gingers are considered white in the main, accepting there are also some dark skinned ethnicities that can have ginger hair.

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VictimOfRhythm@reddit

There's no such thing as "race" among humans. All the other races of bipedal homonides are extinct now. The concept of race is just a class thing, as in, "We're better than them, they're animals compared to us", when in reality we're all the same, we just have varied cultural and continental heritage.

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TedBurns-3@reddit

when used in a derogatory fashion, over time it becomes less favourable

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D1C_Whizz@reddit (OP)

So in your opinion does the derogatory and disparaging use of the term “ginger” in England- linked to the association with Welsh, Irish and Scottish qualify as unfavourable?

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UncleSnowstorm@reddit

It's purely societal. Race, as it's often used, has little scientific meaning. While there are some genetic differences across populations it doesn't map along what we consider racial groups. For example if you took a random Japanese person and a random (white) British person they would be more closely linked genetically than two random Africans from different countries/tribes. But societally we'd consider the latter to be the same race and the former to be different. It's not based in logic or science, so trying to ascribe such things to it is nonsensical. First you need to understand it for what it is and where it came from, simple xenophobia.

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811545b2-4ff7-4041@reddit

Nothing defines a race. It's a sociological quirk. It's relatively meaningless.

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BusyBeeBridgette@reddit

Because Black people and Gingers are two different things.

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KingThorongil@reddit

Same for white and brown. Sidenote: racism is a problem but these words aren't.

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