Humans with very few exceptions have never known how to behave.
We’re hyper competitive murder monkeys and we’ve been that way for a long time.
This hyper focus on American culture is silly, America and it’s culture is a product of European colonialism. Before European colonialism there were a bunch of “native” people who really migrated from Asia (a few thousand years earlier).
The native peoples also spent quite a lot of time murdering each other usually on top of pyramids…
Chimps enforce norms of behavior just as humans do. Most humans, most of the time do in fact behave according to social norms. Are these norms enforced by violence? Yes, that is an important aspect. The less ambitious and 'competitive' are supposed to gang up and kill those who would seek to dominate the group.
Things have gotten out of hand as of late, but the same tendency will come to fruition as conditions deteriorate.
I'd suggest Boehm's Hierarchy in the Forest: The Evolution of Egalitarian Behavior to anyone who finds themselves living in a society.
>The less ambitious and 'competitive' are supposed to gang up and kill those who would seek to dominate the group.
I would like to know more about this.
Is it that Americans have forgotten how to behave or is it that there have been multiple decades of actively pushing hyper-individualistic behaviours as good, actively denigrating values of community as bad, and also spreading a constant environment of fear and hostility that encourages people to see others as threats - eg that every single stranger is a potential child sex trafficker or whatever.
This is it. Our culture has become one both of extreme materialism and "fuck you I'm getting mine", greed is good, etc. and this is the result.
We have defined happiness as how much stuff and money a person can accumulate. Character building and humility and service to others is a cute little side note, something often only done for appearances these days, to the real message of "money is more important than anything, get as much as you can whatever the cost to society".
You're worth as a human is equivalent to the size of your bank account.
I've noticed this cultural decline accelerate really since the new millennium, it's only getting worse and will continue to get worse as resources grow harder to come by due to overconsumption, and the whole thing is an incredibly sad collective insanity.
The worst part is that it makes it difficult anyone who might see value in virtue from pursuing virtue. I mean what happens to the person who values community service when every individual in the community is a vampire? You can't begin to heal, at least not with the old "be the change" approach.
So true. I see many of the good ones going “off grid”. Becoming more guarded, sticking to small groups and no longer being openly helpful. People have figured out there are no positive returns on being decent.
If you pursue values and virtues, you will be persecuted.
Even worse, values, virtues, and moral in America are associated with a really mutated form of Christianity.
This could come back in a flash if the US government would implement social policies on the scale of the new deal.
Its just everyone who'd be able to implement this would never stand a shot at getting elected
Even if there were no Collapse it would get worse. Anyone with half a brain can see the use of technology leads one to pleasure-seeking, hedonism, individualism, greed and selfishness.
As an immigrant from a highly communitarian agrarian society, I was always disturbed by that.
And now the who pop culture and internet is promoting really bizarre way to think and behave to American people.
>this kind of anti-social behaviour has been encouraged by the culture for a long time while behaviour that is \~polite or whatever you want to call it has been denigrated as weakness.
Ironically, maybe, because of how popular Stoicism has been lately, *the exact sort of emotional impulses the stoics made a point to confront within themselves, and, dismiss,*
>No one should talk to **me** that way
...rather than, *no one should talk to anyone that way, and, I'll allow myself the intervention when the example is clear to the principle,* or,
>No girlfriend of **mine** should ever have bikini photos on instagram
I don't think that greed is even **real, unless people practice it as a ritual;** it is when people do, of course, but *insofar as these habits separate people from their societies,* ***the behaviors are almost daydreams,*** **like the second example, I borrowed that from Jonah Hill,** because [even though this is the Selfish Behavior of Jealousy, or, Covetousness](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniesoteriou/jonah-hill-ex-sarah-brady-more-alleged-text-screenshots), or, *something,* ***moreover,*** it's a Little Boy's Understanding, ***Roxanne, you don't have to turn on that red light, Roxanne,*** *you don't have to turn on that red light because I am your wealthy boyfriend* what will the Tabloids and My Friends think if you turn it on Roxanne, "when this is not, really, at all what's going on *and if we're going to be reductive about it: what does he do for a living?"* **or,**
[Stockton Rush having a hissfit over the game controller as if the exercise were more like the situation he'd dressed it as and, Deeper-further into that daydream, More to Do With His Pride than](https://imgur.com/gallery/Ms6TNdi) **this is the room we never leave and the ghosts of Pride and Memory will drown here, too,** *what-ever an endorsement for the theater to remind us of the reality,* ***where aesthetics are no longer obligate due to engineering,*** and I'm reminded, also, of what I've read a climate scientist describe of gradualism,
>experts insisting on the importance *of all of them lying to one another*
I also think of an article I once read about how the, "Puerile attitudes of children," are usually, *if not always,* acculturated; **learned, that,** Bart Simpson is not a natural affect of children, *more or less,* or that bullying, cruelty, *an agnosticism towards the welfare of friends and family,* that's **learned, rather than inherent to childhood; counter-examples are too numerous to mention**
The 4th turning, good book, we are in the shit for maybe another 10 years. Then society rebuilds with a emphasis on civic values, but we are in the complete break down now, as the cycle predicted
It didn't help that we pushed cars and freeways. Cars are so isolating and the infracture built around them spreads people far apart. There's no community anymore just suburbs and strip malls. Consume and then go home.
Couldn't do that here. Even assuming you recognised someone else behind the wheel (big urban area, bland nondescript vehicles), if you stopped for ten seconds you'd have the driver behind completely losing their shit with fury at their arrival at the next traffic queue being delayed ten seconds for the sake of someone saying hello.
Riding my bike in traffic has increased my misanthropy more than anything else other than maybe Twitter. People really act like entitled maniacs on the road.
Cars and longer commutes open people up to propaganda on the radio and the isolation from that makes them not as tolerable to society which works to amplify and shape additional isolation because others don’t want to be around that
Individuality is good, but just like everything else, in moderation. Too many people grew up being told they were special, and that seems to be a valued sentiment. I understand the importance of individuality, but it still needs to fall on the scope of conforming to a pleasant society as a whole.
I will never forget during training as a tax accountant at a major big 4 firm, they were talking about being baffled when a Japan based client did not want to minimize the tax liability in some instance (I forget the exact context). The company believed that paying taxes was a social contract to ensure that we behaved as a civil society.
The other accountants in the room laughed, saying things like "that is so dumb".
In America, we don't give a goddamn about the social good, and it is literally reflected in the corporate monoliths we seem to look up to for some reason.
In other news, we are fucked.
1000% agree.
I'd like to add on that our government and our culture has been dumbing down. Not just intellectually(although that is also very important) but also emotionally.
Emotional intelligence is one of the biggest, if not, the biggest tool we, as humans, have to inform ourselves of our world and our counter parts. Strong emotional intelligence is acutely attributed to high quality of life.
If a person cannot know why they are upset or feeling a certain way, they are blind to the steps to take to remedy the situation they find themselves in. This is barbarism.
The EI I see on a daily basis across ALL walks of life is staggeringly poor. Wealthy men who are in positions of leadership acting like babies. Lower wealth individuals fighting at a drop of a hat. Parents screeching at teachers and blaming everyone but themselves and their children.
We are bankrupt. And all of these emotional children are wearing and grating on those of us who are still trying to uphold the social contract. Those high EI individuals are being dragged down too.
🎵 Land of anger, I didn't ask to be born
Sadness, sorrow, everything so alone,
Laboratory sickness infects humanity
No hope for a cure, die by technology? 🎶
This might sound tinfoil…but serious scientific evidence gives credence to this.
People are acting more crazy because of the weakening magnetic fields that precede the magnetic pole shifts, which we are currently in.
Magnetic treatments have been used in severe mental illness cases, and in studies of the effects of weakened magnetic fiends on mammals…it’s been noted it increases violent tendencies. As one study on rats noted…weakened magnetic fields made them “violent and rapey”.
So yeah, there is science to support this hypothesis. We’ve lost at least 9% of our magnetic field the past 200 years, but it’s deteriorating at a faster and faster pace.as it goes, so does society’s minds.
I've mentioned this before, and it isn't my original idea, but it all comes down to the looming and inevitable collapse of civilization that will be happening very soon. Some of us know it is coming. Some of us do not know. And some of us deny the reality of it, either consciously or unconsciously.
But the truth manifests in us all. We know that the thin veneer of civilization is about to be permanently stripped away from everyone. It is all part of the natural progression to whatever Mad Max type world will be emerging post-collapse. People don't just become mohawk-sporting, paint-huffing, psycho-killer cannibals overnight. It's a process. One that we are beginning to go through. As the pressures of climate change, extreme politics, and resource scarcity come to bear on humanity, we humans will do what we always do.
Revert to throwing feces like caged monkeys.
And it isn't just Americans. It is everyone. We Americans are just a little farther along the path to barbarism than some others, as a result of being selfish assholes already. But don't worry. It comes for us all. Civilized behavior is, historically and biologically, the aberration. Our nature is a violent and selfish one, and the more extreme things become around us the more extreme our reversion to that state will become.
This is just a natural progression.
In America if Trump is re-elected as President again, I don’t see civilization as Americans know it recovering, he’s going to put literal insane people in positions of immense power.
What is actually scarier is if Trump doesn't get re-elected. Because then we get DeSantis by a landslide. It may not appear so on the outside but he is much worse than Trump. Trump is just greedy, stupid and egomaniacal. DeSantis is actually a lot smarter and more charismatic in his evil.
But it is all a moot point. The only thing that I know for sure when it comes to the 2024 elections is that it will be chaos. It is going to be too close between the parties, the midterms were an example of that, and no matter who wins the other side is going to cry foul. How loud they cry will decide how crazy it gets. Trump leads in the polls by a vast margin, I'm not really sure how. the dems are stuck with Joe. This is shaping up to be a shitshow between a [Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche_and_Turd)
And many other actors on the world stage are waiting precisely for these elections and the chaos they will spawn...
Nope, I read everything. The better to keep track of what the bad guys are doing. Bad guys here being all politicians regardless of stripe.
There's the NYT...
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/31/us/politics/2024-poll-nyt-siena-trump-republicans.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/31/us/politics/2024-poll-nyt-siena-trump-republicans.html)
A little tidbit from NBC...
71% of GOP voters stand with Trump amid investigations
[https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meetthepressblog/poll-71-gop-voters-stand-trump-investigations-rcna97305](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meetthepressblog/poll-71-gop-voters-stand-trump-investigations-rcna97305)
Man, even Al Jazeera?!
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/31/trump-holds-commanding-lead-over-gop-rivals-despite-legal-woes-poll](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/31/trump-holds-commanding-lead-over-gop-rivals-despite-legal-woes-poll)
A little NPR...
[https://www.npr.org/2023/08/04/1191279975/raising-money-poll-numbers-donald-trump-teflon-don-indictments-criminal-charges](https://www.npr.org/2023/08/04/1191279975/raising-money-poll-numbers-donald-trump-teflon-don-indictments-criminal-charges)
Even outside the RNC Trump still tied with Biden...
[https://www.axios.com/2023/08/01/biden-trump-2024-poll-republican-primary](https://www.axios.com/2023/08/01/biden-trump-2024-poll-republican-primary)
And CNN?! For shame!
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/19/politics/trump-polling-indictments-republican-primary-biden/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/19/politics/trump-polling-indictments-republican-primary-biden/index.html)
I suppose we could do this all day, but no matter which polls one looks at, the frontrunner is as clear as it is idiotic. One way or another, Trump is going to be the red candidate. The only real hope is if there are somehow not enough red voters come the time, and if the economy can somehow be held together for that long. Anything bad happens, anything, and people will blame the sitting president and flip the White House. As always happens. And gas prices are ticking up again...
The vast majority of the voting public are idiots, and they vote with their wallets and following their particular social media trends.
DeSantis has lost a massive amount of support tho, Republicans are fully aboard the Trump cult train again. Now if he’s in prison (unlikely), can’t run and DeSantis is the default option, I think Democrats probably will win fairly easily. The path towards Fascism won’t end regardless, but Americans can delay it for as long as possible.
I don't know, unless they have some surprise candidate up their sleeve I don't see the dems beating anyone with Biden. Especially not with the economic tank that is incoming for the first half of 2024...
I keep fearing a Donald/Ron ticket. That would be the nail in the coffin and a republican wet dream.
Seems like people lose interest in DeSantis as soon as they actually see or hear him talk. He's all in on the culture war stuff which gets him lots of attention and headlines. He has no charisma stage or tv though.
I think swing voters will go for Biden again. They know him. Sometimes he even does pretty well on stage or in a debate. Sometimes... Most importantly though, I think(hope) people will pick the cooler temper when we have a war in Europe and the threat of one in the Pacific, both of which have pretty major implications for the US.
Definitely agree the economy will play a big role but who knows what else will be going on? Or if the economy will actually crash, it seems to have stabilized for the time. It seems like Ukraine and maybe Taiwan are likely to have pretty big parts in the election as well. And who knows what else...
I think those swing voters are just worried about where that Biden vote goes if he kicks the bucket in the next 4 years...
Who the hell knows. The entire process has been tainted and will only get more divisive this time around. No one will be happy with the results.
Except BRICS. I think they will be quite happy indeed.
Good lord. If you can't see that ANYONE including Harris, who would be pres if Biden dies, is 100% better than repube fascists trying to destroy the US....IDK what to tell ya.
I can see it. What I was saying is that they cannot see it. The thing is, regardless of mine or your progressive views, a great deal of the voting public simply wants things to go back closer to the way they always were, the days when things were good for them. They don't consider whether things were good for others under those times, that remains irrelevant to them. And that is why a centrist like Biden is the absolute best hope of avoiding a red sweep. Because elsewhere on the left, things are just too progressive for people to stand, even those on the left themselves. Like it or not, people on both sides want to go back closer to the way things were. And they will vote that way.
We know it's a bad idea for the planet and the future, but that is a minority opinion. Boomers and up still rock the house for both parties, and that will not change in time to matter.
They’re already in and are just waiting for the moment to pounce, unfortunately. What’s going to save us is basically putting aside our differences and truly defeat at the ballot box anything and everything in proximity to Trump and the gop.
The "American Dream" was basically the US social contract. And most people can now see they're never going to get that, so they don't see why they should hold up their side of the bargain.
Why are you so obsessed with the US? It’s quite literally all you comment about. The amazing part of it is that you’re Belarusian. You’ve had the same right-wing dictator as your president since 1994. Your country is lower on the Quality of Life index than Kazakhstan, Russia, and Hungary (1). Your GDP per capita is $6,411, while the US is $70, 250 (2).
You come from a poor, repressive country with extremely limited civil rights. Your public education system is among the worst in the Europe and ranked ranked 52nd globally, while the US is ranked 1st (3).
I’m sure it makes you feel better about your current situation to constantly be focusing on another country on the opposite side of the world, but maybe the reason you are still living under authoritarian rule is precisely because no Belarusians have attempted to confront their own reality.
1. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country
2. https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/poorest-countries-in-europe/#:~:text=Belarus%2C%20with%20a%20GNI%20per,GDP%20stands%20at%2060%20billion.
3. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/education-rankings-by-country
Oh it's so nice to see the 1980's come back. I remember a time two years ago when anyone said anything bad about Russia in any way they were flamed to oblivion and given the old "no true Scotsman" argument.
Yeah. Used to be North Korea. With more money.
Sigh. In reality it is not nice to see the 1980's come back. This is going to get all culturally ugly again like it did under Mini Bush isn't it.
What?
1980's have nothing to do with MiniBush. Culturally everyone was all racist and shit under MiniBush if I remember right.
Come Mr. Taliban turn over Bin Laden and all that horrifying nonsense online.
Notice all the downvotes in that last comment of yours? That’s because it didn’t make sense. You’re also using “if I remember right” and “all racist and shit” which honestly doesn’t make you sound too terribly knowledgeable.
All right. Let me break this down into an outline.
1. Reagan era. Everyone hated the Soviets. By then it was largely fear-mongering, I mean, how can you be doing trade with your supposed mortal enemy, it's kind of bullshit. But everyone hated the Soviets.
2. Pre-Regan era. "We will bury you". Yeah. They were nutjobs. Like absolute complete whack jobs. Look at any slide show of East German living conditions in the 60's, they were hateable at that moment in history. I mean, yes, we got nice and hateable too under Reagan but the point stands.
3. So, of late, like up until the Ukraine war, the online sentiment was that Russia could do no wrong.
4. Then Ukraine happens and everyone's like "beh those shit Russians. Well, it is Putin tho". I mean, maybe it is. Probably it is. But they do have a past history of being absolute pricks if they want to be. This is not unique to them by any means, but they are also not exempted from it. The "nice" part of this is the taking off of the rose colored glasses when speaking about any nation on earth with a military large enough to take half a continent. Anyone with a military that big needs to be treated with cautious suspicion at best. This is not just Russia, it's anyone with a military that big.
5. So it's good to see the rose colored glasses come off.
6. That said, the last time we took off the rose colored glasses was under MiniBush, with respect to Islam.
7. That went poorly.
8. We became really really racist during that period of history.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rYSYZmWr80](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rYSYZmWr80)
Hey I agree completely. The most annoying part is that I’ve travelled to his country. Whenever anyone has asked me about Belarus I have always said the same thing: “Minsk is very beautiful and the residents were all kind, friendly people.” I’ve always answered in that manner because I don’t enjoy denigrating an entire country.
I could have answered “it’s a poor, oppressive shithole” but didn’t feel as though that was necessary given my own “social contract” he claims we lack.
Why don’t you ask Ukrainians? Especially since Belarus has not only already launched missiles into Ukraine at Russias demand, but they have also recently obtained Russian Iskander tactical missile systems that fire tactical nuclear weapons.
Any other ignorant questions?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/belarus-units-complete-training-russian-tactical-nuclear-missile-systems-2023-04-22/
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
So your argument is that since smaller, less impactful to the global stage countries are engaged in bad activities, citizens of those countries aren’t allowed to criticize the biggest imperialist country that is accelerating the world towards collapse more than any other? Nice smokescreen.
Hey I’ll let you in on a secret that most people are already aware of…. Your country (Canada) has directly benefited from the US military. In every way imaginable, Canada has been able and free to dismiss almost any concerns related to defense. The largest superpower in the world is your unequivocal ally.
What’s worse? Providing the security for Canadians, or profiting off that security and then questioning the manner in which it has been provided? I understand that you may fancy yourself a pseudo intellectual (I saw all those references to Marx in your comment history), but the fact of the matter remains that Canadians are able to sleep soundly at night under the imperial, militant ballsack of your southern neighbor.
Your faux intellectualism is cute, but until you’re willing to question why your own government’s closest ally happens to be the source of your disdain you just come across as a hypocritical, petulant, uneducated child.
I find it very funny that you think comments about Marx are pseudo intellectual while at the same time parroting the “American military spending makes the world safe” bullshit rhetoric that Warhawks in your country have been using to justify their bloated military budget for decades. Stop pretending your country does it for altruistic reasons, it does it for its own benefit. It uses it to military as a cudgel to promote its toxic ultra-capitalist ideology and exploit Third World countries for cheap labour and raw materials.
Criticizing Canada isn’t the slam dunk you seem to think it is. I am well aware that my country is basically a mining conglomerate masquerading as a functional society. But look in the mirror for once, you’re on the collapse subreddit frantically defending the worlds biggest contributor towards the coming collapse.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Hi, Goat-Taco. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/15u1x0b/-/jwnv2ds/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
> Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information.
You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
I thought I already made that clear with regards to his comment history. Regardless, if I have broken some subreddit rule then go ahead and report it. If not, then carry on.
I can think of any number of historically recent idiocies from the Armenian Genocide forward, that happened with zero Americans behaving badly as a requirement for the population to fail to uphold the social contract.
Saying that "Americans never had any social contract" implies that they are somehow an exception to a "upholding the social contract" norm. Which is not the case. Sadly, "social darwinism idiocy" is not unique to the USA.
America was faced with a crisis that required collective effort across society.
Then the former head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who championed the illegal war and occupation of Iraq based on lies told them to just give up and get infected over and over, so they did.
Meanwhile, the climate is in a surprise collapse, with California facing a hurricane. On a side note, A fun side effect of climate collapse is more pandemics.
> Meanwhile, the climate is in a "surprise" collapse, with California facing a hurricane. On a side note, A fun side effect of climate collapse is more pandemics.
FTFY. It's only been 127 years since the possibility of fossil fuels doing that has been foreseen.
Thank you for your 127 year complement. We’ve been on the brink of extinction for at least 25 to 30 years.
And the whole time we were dumb enough to listen to the scientist people don’t even like to believe. That they knew the exact date of collapse.
Oh, and the entire ecosystem will stop working. “ attention the world will collapse before 2025.”
The news is not covering things. The collapse is in full swing wait till people start running up their credit cards
There is no obvious date of collapse. There are just ways the world system will respond to decisions people make regarding how resources are used and distributed.
There was nothing necessary about this. This is down to human choices, informed choices, even, especially when it comes to oil companies, but many have read *Limits to Growth* when it came out, so we can't really call the general public uninformed either.
There’s no obvious date of collapse. But there is the day that you change your mindset from what do I want to do in the next 20 years to how can I prepare for the next five
This is what individuality is doing to america. People are too concerned about making their own way, that they ignore their community and they ignore the collective good. America needs a heavy dose of "shut the fuck up and act in the betterment of EVERYONE - not just *your* race, not just *your* religion, not just *your* political party, not just *your* financial class.
It reminds me of this superhero show I saw I think it was on Amazon or Netflix but it was not The Boys. When the main group of people were getting their powers back and I think the 40s or 50s, they had to go through these ancient trials and tests that would kill people along the way and one of the tests was designed to see if they would sacrifice one of their members. I don't remember the details but the characters didn't sacrifice somebody, even though it was very tempting to. And it was a good thing too, because the very next last requirement was a spot for each person to put a hand on a wall. So if they had decided to be selfish and take the easy way out and kill one of the members, they would have never been able to get any powers, they would be missing a hand necessary.
America right now is killing everybody off and when they get to the final challenge, they never have the required hands.
It goes deeper than capitalism. The government uses the concept of freedom and the American Dream as a way to promote "you can say, do, be whatever you want to be", ie be an individual, disconnected from your environment. For example, let's just take money out of the equation for a moment, the average person may not feel incentivized to care about things that are outside of their sphere, and this is a result of an individualistic culture that places the individual above the collective.
> This is what individuality is doing to america
It's what *Capitalism* is doing to America. Predication an entire economic system on individualism and "how much can I extract from people and the world around me" will do that.
It's capitalism enacted by elites, with layers of abstractions, no one wants to sit on a throne of bone, so they instead have others do the dirty work.
Kind of agree however any system aside from anarchy exploits folks in a hierarchal fashion. Unless you fundamentally believe there's communist based system is free of human corruption.
Looking at german capitalism pre World War 1 when Bismarck was in play with a Junker class going out of it's way to introduce things such as pensions and forms of a social safety net.
There's a natural give and take in any of these systems unfortunately sometime in the 70s the levers we'd normally pull to fix these issues got gummed up and forgotten about. Guess it's time to bring on the 30's again.
> Unless you fundamentally believe there's a communist based system that is free of human corruption.
As an Anarcho-Communist this is exactly what I believe.
Humans respond to incentives. When a system incentives exploitation of those "beneath" oneself and accumulation of power it will only produce those conditions. Systems that center community interdependence and mutual aid are not only natural for humanity as a social species, but they are the only means by which we can restore and maintain our connections to one another.
> So what stops the Mad Max Senario, or old school Feudalism?
What *causes* those scenarios should be your concern.
> Interdependence doesn't matter so much when an outside entity drives up takes your land and offers some blankets...
Outside entities that are still reliant on violent exploitation should be met in kind. A series of interdependent communes will not have this issue because they are *interdependent*. Harming a community your community relies on will only ever result in your own harm, specifically by fracturing that interdependence. Any community *could* react violently, but that does not serve them because it is detrimental to them.
I would suggest fully watching [this playlist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzEl5RIMp7M&list=PLCcemL_x8RtdtFuib1Wl6VwyuYOEDb5Wv) as it works as a good "primer" on the functions of such a system without being overly "technical" or otherwise language dense.
I'll give your playlist a good old college try and report back.
However, in my experience it's been more of the 7 sins that work as successful drivers in the world + fear, this is something the "more elegant systems of the world" generally fail to account for.
> uses these same sins and fears as lubricant.
Which is why Capitalism will only produce negative outcomes. Using blood and fear as lubricant will only ever produce blood and fear.
Read Christopher Lasch's "The Culture of Narcissism"
Basically it's an excellent summary of how we unmoored american culture from any foundations or moral bindings, starting by bleeding local community talent, "natural leaders" and turning them into middle management who needed to travel to chase the american dream.
At first I didn't like how it'd jump from the 1920's to modern day and back over and over again but it eventually grew on me and now I am sad it was canceled. Solid show.
That's a story functioning as intended.
I also recently watched Jupiter's Legacy, and it's good enough, and we need more stories like that one so people start to get in, hopefully fast enough for us to survive, collectively.
Saw V has a similar idea. Plot spoilers: >!From the wiki, "...five saws and a beaker requiring ten pints of blood to open the final door. They realize that all prior tests could have been completed without casualties if they had worked together..." Now they don't have enough people to open the door because of their "me or them" mentality. !<
Californian here. It's been said that it will most likely be incredibly weaken by the time it reaches us. We might, and this is a big might, get a tropical storm, but no hurricane is happening.
Hopefully. I’ve lived through a few Cat 3’s and to Cat 5’s. Everyone always thinks it’s not coming or it’s gonna weaken. What happens if it doesn’t? Be prepared. There’s lots of dead ppl who said Hurricane Ian was just gonna be “a lot of rain”. They drowned to death….
That's the norm in the southern eastern region, that's not California. I wish people would remember that bit a info. It would be like me comparing our earthquakes to an earthquake that happens in North Carolina. People are hyping this up way too much. It's a storm, nothing else.
My point was only to be safe and prepare. These things can be unpredictable no matter where they are going. I’d be even more watchful as this is an abnormal event….
Maybe show a little empathy for the people stuck there, like working class, poor, and homeless folks who will face the disastrous effects; people are currently struggling with many not far from economic turmoil, last thing they need is another reason to worry and stress out.
What is the human cost for "proof"? If people aren't listening now what good is another tragedy at convincing them?
Moved to Salem, Or. It feels like I’m living in 1995. I never knew 2 states right next to each other could be more different. Now I teach middle school. Uhg It’s crazy.
I like the people and the city but oregon doesn't have nearly the resources Washington and California have. Resources for disabled or elderly. Resources for homeowners. Basically it's hard to get anything done here.
Hey man you're right. Dark humor is a coping mechanism that I tend to rely on (and in my experience lands well here.)
But you are absolutely right, human suffering in general is unnecessary and can be (could have been) avoided.
It will take a 100,000 dead in a week for people to take heed properly. (Or over a weekend?)
There is a threshold for the realisation to dawn, but we’re not reaching it. Yet.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
Canada appears to still be on fire, china got a bit wet, haven't checked on India for awhile, Russia appears to have shit out its economy, North Africa seems to be twitchy lately, all in all there's a few things I can point to
Can confirm Canada is still on fire. The smoke just isn't blowing in the directions of giant global metropolises, anymore. In point of fact, all 20,000 Yellowknife residents are currently evacuating, as a direct result of the rapidly spreading wildfires.
This is the second time it's happened in a year. Our 2 week long mega heat dome last year only broke because of a hurricane remnant going on roughly the same track as this one.
Don't worry some politician will remember many hurricanes happening in California or if is always like this with weather. So don't worry. Heck the wet winter and soggy ground will let it easily flow into the ocean.
I'm glad, if only for the respite from having to water plants. I'm not looking forward to hearing people once again proclaim " sEe?? thEy fiXed gLoBal warMiNg" and how much *more* of a nightmare the roads will be.
James Hansen just released a new study the last couple days showing that we will overshoot 1.5 next year. Paul Beckwith just talked about the AMOC having a 95% chance of shutting down as early as 2025 and basically the Arctic and Antarctic sea ice is nearly gone. Oh and El Nino heat will kick in next year. I’m going to go catch the sunset tonight even though I’m tired because I’m not sure how many are remaining.
https://youtu.be/E-YobPD8D_E
That’s what I’m doing. Moved to a small mountain town away from major populations and spending every moment possible just enjoying nature. I’ve had the whole summer off and it’s been glorious. Never would have taken the time if I wasn’t aware of the looming climate shutdown.
I stopped talking about it with my friends. One they think I’m crazy but two, I actually think they are better off not knowing. Although, I’m pretty grateful for this time I’ve had. I got laid off this year and I took the summer off to just enjoy the mountains where I live. It’s been amazing and I’m so thankful I’ve had this time to relax and reflect.
We are in an extinction event and most people don’t notice or care. I feel like I am going crazy every few days. I think I’ll spend the rest of my life grieving the Earth.
I can’t believe more people aren’t aware. Like the time is fucking nigh! It’s one minute to midnight. I just wish we had a better handle on when. With several major tipping points at risk in like the next couple years and yeah being in an extinction event, you would think the public would clue in. Media could do us a service by dedicating time to climate scientists but at this point it’s all too late.
Collapse will be more or less painful for you and people you care about depending on how you've prepared. Does nobody teach the grasshopper and the ant anymore?
I don't need to be panicking to prepare. If you were collapse aware before, you had time to set up systems for yourself and the people you care about to lessen the pain.
But if pain&death is 100% as the outcome, what good does living in constant dread helps me? We are not at the point of total collapse yet, might as well enjoy what time you have left.
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They all acted like fucking animals during COVID and most businesses and politicians kissed their asses. Now, they realize they can just continue being trash human beings and it’s all good for them….
Something occured to me today, I was on /r/whitepeopletwitter and there was a twitter post from some conservative nut about shooting Lefty's in the next civil war. All the comments on the Reddit post were all about how everybody has a gun and the right wingers will be surprised, everybody was bragging about their guns, and how right wingers wouldn't expect them to have them, etc.
It occurred to me that this is not normal. Like fantasizing about killing your fellow countrymen isn't normal. Not only is it not normal but it's even more fucked up that people openly talk or brag about this shit online.
I don't fantasize about murdering a conservative, gay, liberal, or Christian co-worker (I am also not American). Like this isn't normal to fantasize about these things no matter what side of political spectrum your on. In fact I'm pretty sure if I had these fantasies I should seek mental help. But here are people posting in Reddit and twitter like it's just a normal thing. What the hell happened? When did people start thinking this was okay? Why is it okay to even say this shit? I feel like I"d be in jail if I posted that shit on twitter and that cops would be monitoring my Reddit posts if I bragged about how I'm gay and carry a gun and gave been trained to use it (maybe this is a normal American thing to brag about, I dunno)
It occurred to me that a large amount people in the USA are mentally fucked. People in other first world countries don't do this. Sure there might be extremist groups, but the average person isn't sitting there wait for a civil war to brake out so they can shoot people.
I’m an American and Ive noticed the same things. I often wonder why Americans hate each other so much and want to k*ll each other. This country is being ripped apart.
Our politics are nastier and they're beamed directly into everyone's eyeballs for hours each day. No matter how bland or extreme your positions, there is some corner of the internet that will tell you that you are right and everyone else is a dumb asshole that probably wants you dead.
Yeah, it’s not a good sign. It’s not new for the USA though. The father of a professor I know was a Black man during the Civil Rights Era in Birmingham, Alabama. They had to be armed and ready 24/7 in case the KKK came to their neighborhood. As a child, the professor had to be ready to fetch guns for the adults.
Giving up on Reconstruction made this inevitable. When traitors are left alive and free, they might go away to lick their wounds. But the resentment doesn’t die and it’s passed down to the next generations. The Southeast has been a “zombie fire” awaiting fuel. That authoritarian plantation mindset didn’t go away, and neither did the idea of endless blood feuds. Leftists can get infected with it too, growing up in it and oblivious to the fact they’re in an honor culture.
Side note: Crime and crime rates are weirdly regional and actually seem to be related to which colonizing groups settled where. The people who stay and the people who are pushed out also change dynamics. So even decades and decades on, the Confederates are still like gangrene. High social cost crimes? Usually they’re right on top of previous atrocities.
In particular, I found this article informative. I still need to get my hands on the book.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413
> People in other first world countries don't do this. Sure there might be extremist groups, but the average person isn't sitting there waiting for a civil war to brake out so they can shoot people.
They don't have a !st Amendment right to speech, so we don't really know what's on their minds. Americans are uniquely able to hold forth in public.
Neither do the vast majority of Americans. It’s the internet. 90% of tweets are done by 10% of adults. America also has 300m people which is often forgotten. Shits gonna look bigger and be more. 1% of Americans is still three million people. If we assumed 10% of the population were assholes, that’s 30 million people. The population of Canada. Yet still small within its own context. What you’re looking at is terminally minority of online people who due to being English speakers from America and being ridiculously populous are a lot more vocal. I would’ve assumed Canada is a Maoist country had I actually taken any of it seriously because of all the Chinese diaspora from Canada that shill Maoism.
Point is. These people act a lot bigger than they are. Climate Collapse is coming but this thankfully is a stink. And it does happen in other developed countries. Their minorities are a lot smaller in total numbers because those populations are a lot smaller. I’ve seen plenty of Europeans fantasize about killing refugees in their country, leftists/rightists, or their government but they will always be smaller than in America and mostly not being saying this shit in English.
It drives me crazy how little people understand that the things they enjoy today depend on that starting foundation of genocide and slavery. They say things like, "I have nothing to do with the past," but if you are thoughtlessly enjoying the unsustainable luxuries and privileges of the American lifestyle then you are thoughtlessly participating in the horrors of the past because the idealized middle class American lifestyle that everyone wants could not exist without those past horrors.
I hear this a lot and I'm not sure I totally buy it (Just to be clear: I mean the part about "our 'first world' middle-class lifestyle not being possible without exploitation"; NOT my complicitness by means of my participation: that I do agree with [to an extent]).
Is this really true? Could it not have been possible to build a similar comfortable civilization in a more sustainable manner and without slavery? I understand this is speculative and there are a million different ways history *could* have gone at any point in the past; but to say that *none* of what we have would be possible without exploitation and suffering seems overly reductive to me ...
if you think of industrial development in thermoeconomic terms, the change we've seen required some investment of energy (in a broad sense that includes biomechanical, e.g. human and other animal, energy) toward means of producing even more energy, as a means of increasing civilization's overall capacity to do work. you can do more work with less energy by deploying more and more advanced technologies, but to get to the point where that's process is self-reinforcing, you must first have the spare energy to do the work in creating technologies that are net-energy-positive.
slavery was a cheat code that lowered quality of life for others, i.e. reduced energy requirements. initially slavery was more straightforwardly used to enrich the lives of the powerful and maintain the status quo over a long period of time. violent colonization was another cheat code that effectively reduced energy requirements, through manufacturing abundance. slavery plus colonization equals you've suppressed energy needs to a degree that you can create an energy surplus that can be deployed widely enough for society to unlock that self-reinforcing move up the energy ladder.
I think this is slightly flawed. Yes, slavery reduces the energy input, but the excess energy goes somewhere. If money/assets are a proxy for energy, then most of that excess flowed to the capital class(slave owners as slaves=capital). You could point out that many government works were built by slaves, but was that work contracted out to slave owners? If so, a portion was saved by the government and a portion went to the slave owner. A slave owner only had to beat the bid of a non slave owner, not blow it out of the water so the excess split would favor the slave owner.
Anyways, for normal people they may have gotten slightly cheaper widgets throughout their lives, but certainly the energy/money account was closed upon their death. Only those with significant holdings to pass on would still incur the debt, but even then it would be a fraction due to the majority of the opportunity cost of using a normal worker versus a slave being pocketed by the capitalist.
I understand, but I'm saying that money and other assets are a proxy for energy. Money is how we exchange our energy with one another. Specialization is how we minimize our energy input.
right, and we had slaves specialized into raw goods production, which allowed others to specialize into other things. we created slack that energy could be spent elsewhere. check out a chart of urbanization over time; it popped off as fewer wage earners had to farm to survive. in england for example, many of those farms went into coal extraction, construction, etc. making things like a rail buildout possible
Yes, but there's an accounting that goes on. Your original post seemed to indicate that everything that exists is entirely owed to slavery. I'm saying that a true accounting would show the balance of those debts is mostly in the hands of the slave owners as a cost was paid for their labor, it just went to the slave owner. Most of these things would have still been built in lieu of slavery, but a percentage would not have. So while governments/individuals did benefit from slavery, it's not 1:1 otherwise you're counting assets multiple times which does not make accounting sense.
Consider a normal transaction where a capitalist makes a widget using normal labor. Say the capitalist pays $20 in raw materials, $60 in labor, then sells the widget for $100, yielding $20 profit.
Alternatively, the slave owner(capitalist) pays $20 of raw materials, $0 in labor(well, slaves did cost, but their accounting in an energy sense is entirely negative), then sells the widget for $80 to undercut a normal capitalist, yielding a profit of $60. The consumer saved $20, which is their debt owed to the slave, and the capitalist saved $40 which is their debt owed to the slave(on this transaction only, not speaking ethically).
This isn't perfect as there were costs associated with owning a slave, but as that benefits only the slave owner it's fairly irrelevant for obvious reasons.
The point is that you can't say that the entire value of assets built by slaves is owed by the collective(in this case the consumers who benefited from slavery) as they only took a portion of the slave's energy. The vast majority of their energy is owed by the slaver and the slave owner. Additionally, assets built by slaves either completely depreciated or had to be maintained over time/rebuilt, so some fraction of the total cost of a building built by slaves such as the White House isn't owed to slaves at all. Again, this is all assuming you can use money as a proxy for energy.
you're complicating things way too much with the money part, and the answer is right there. the savings you mentioned represent the effective energy surplus. that's less energy spent on the demand side to get that thing. the things don't have to be free; the effective surplus adds up to a collective capacity for people to specialize.
I really don't think I am complicating things any more than they should be. In your original point you said:
| slavery was a cheat code that lowered quality of life for some, i.e. reduced energy requirements.
It didn't reduce energy requirements, it changed the balance of energy payments, if you will. Slaves had to expend energy, they just got very little in return; the majority going to the slave owner and some going to the consumer through consumption of cheaper slave-produced goods/services.
This gets back to the original point about whether this life/these comforts would be possible without slavery in the past, and I think it largely could be. I would even argue that net energy overall was probably lower because we missed out economic benefits of educating slaves and having their potential contributions to science/industry. But the reason I was talking about the accounting of things is that if you undid slavery, the benefit the average person got as a result of slave labor is very small relative to the slave owner and any assets obtained in this manner have long since deteriorated and no longer provide value(I.e. cheap textiles/buildings). Thus my main point is that this quality of life we have to day would likely have been possible without slave labor.
Well, again I guess we disagree about the extent. The south continued to exploit the shit of out black people after slavery ended, but most southerners were still dirt poor(and were during slavery) which I think bolsters my claim.
i don't think it says anything about your claim. i'm trying to figure out what your claim is. is it that slavery had no effect on quality of life? all the exact same things that happened in the last 10,000 years would've happened on the same timeline with the same effects?
The entire conversation is surrounding bjandrus' post, specifically:
> I hear this a lot and I'm not sure I totally buy it (Just to be clear: I mean the part about "our 'first world' middle-class lifestyle not being possible without exploitation"
You then spoke about slavery and colonization having been a significant boost to the overall economy/energy balance. I responded to say that I thought this was slightly flawed as I don't think slavery was as much of a boon to the average person as you made it out to be and went on to provide my reasoning.
Specifically, the average person of the time of slavery only benefited through cheaper consumer goods and labor provided to build buildings/infrastructure. Consumer goods were consumed and buildings/infrastructure degrade over time and must be maintained over time, thus are maintained at some point without slave labor. So when it comes to the average person today and the lifestyle they enjoy, a very small amount of people truly benefited from slavery as it would likely be in the form of wealth that was passed on which was primarily from owning slaves and profiting from their lost compensation. The rest would come from opportunity costs associated with paying slightly more for goods produced fairly, but again, only if that savings went to some kind of investment that could carry over to future generations.
In summation, in response to the original question and your original post, exploitation definitely contributed to the 'first world' middle-class lifestyle we have today, but primarily through colonization, not slavery(hence - "slightly flawed").
This does make sense; thanks for the explanation. I think this, combined with our evolutionary disposition towards territorialism and tribalism probably does imply that this was always inevitable for our species. How sad. 😔
you're probably right. that said, we've seen that _most_ civilizations at least don't get to the point they experience runaway movement up the energy ladder. the saddest parts to me are that (a) we'll never get to see if the civilizations in the americas could have sustained that indefinitely without collapsing, and (b) that there may not ever be a civilization that can move far enough up the ladder to give people comfortable lives without subjecting itself to runaway growth
So much of modern western culture has its roots in colonization that its hard to separate the two. Even supposedly positive aspects, like the Arts, Scientific Method and the Enlightment, came about as a consequence of discovering and exploiting colonies. There would have been no Rebrandt or Vermeer without the Dutch East Indies Company. There would been no Newton or Darwin without the East India Company.
Not just history… it’s still happening.
The oil fields on the African coast and the inland mines are supporting American big businesses while the people in those resource-rich areas remain poor. The US government sends “financial aid” over there, which amounts to nothing more than a bribe so that corrupt government officials will look the other way.
South America is the same. I was down there recently and saw the military presence on a “humanitarian aide campaign.” Yeah, one medical chopper and five others with guns hanging out the side… They’re there to “help… something something…” They’re maintaining a presence so that the locals don’t mess with the US-based mineral exploration and exploitation contractors in the area.
Every year plain-clothes US Navy Seals are flown in by unmarked USAF planes to assassinate honest democratic politicians in the global-South countries. I know this for a definite fact. A friend was witness to this for over a decade and is now really f’d in the head for having participated in all of that garbage.
The US government is doing what it’s always done; looking out for the good of the 0.01% at the expense of the rest of the world, all while brainwashing its people into believing in “freedom and democracy for all.”
So what’s a socially responsible middle American to do? It’s not like they asked for it.. coming from a poverty kid that made it to the middle.. barely.
I agree with this right here. Just as I also agree that many people didn't ask to be born into this society and the oppressive standards of living we're all conditioned and pressured to pursue (with the threat of dehumanizing poverty hanging over you if we don't pursue it). It's not so much about intentionally dropping out of society and becoming destitute (though there are also some in-between alternatives between the polar extremes of the American lifestyle and dire poverty).
Simply *acknowledging* it goes a long way, especially because most people don't even acknowledge it which is an ongoing injustice to the countless lives that have been exploited, brutalized, and outright murdered in the name of endless profit, expansion and growth. There are obviously no easy answers and each person has to find their way to cope (hopefully in as healthy, non-destructive ways as possible) with the oppressive realities of history continually bleeding into the present. But I do believe that accepting and acknowledging it is one of the hardest and most important steps. Beyond that, we're all just kind of stumbling about looking for feasible ways to do a little bit less harm. One thing is for sure, though, which is that that the typical paths laid out for us by our families, schools, institutions, and our social and cultural conditioning is usually the path of more harm, not less.
Finally, the fact that you even care and think about this is proof that you're already doing more than most, unfortunately. Try to honor yourself for that and not get pulled into the trap of guilt and self-hate. As people here have already said, we didn't ask for this. But we can always choose what we do now that we're here.
Dude that’s literally every old nation! Jesus American isn’t unique heck Canada did the same shit. Stop acting like American invented slavery when it’s just you’re lack of education about almost every other nation. Almost all nations in the Americans had all 3 things also dude the racism never left.
That was the British, not Canada.
In Lower Canada, for example, after court decisions in the late 1790s, the "slave could not be compelled to serve longer than he would, and ... might leave his master at will."[3] Upper Canada passed the Act Against Slavery in 1793, one of the earliest anti-slavery acts in the world.
The British didn't outlaw slavery in the territory of Canada until 1833 and Canada didn't become a country proper until 1867.
Canada, as a country, has never had slavery.
Dude same people and to the people it enslaved changing the label didn’t mean shit. That’s semantics unless the Canadian population magically appeared from no where after they became a country
That wasn’t cause of slavery or any of the injustices you listed dude. It’s cause of WW1/WW2 and how everyone gave us their gold to hold onto and we became the central bank of the world that’s gave us the power.
>That wasn’t cause of slaver
It wasn't just slavery. There was also murdering the native Americans and exploiting their wealth. Then sponsoring doctorships through the Americas to extract wealth from them.
Dude every nation has a rap sheet Americas it is bad but your view is colored cause I’m guessing you’re American so you only got American history.
The idea America is unique is a product of American exceptionalism my dude which is propaganda. There a lot fucked up shit other nations do not even saying it makes what the USA does less bad cause it perfectly effected my homeland and myself really but it’s not unique all.
Kid, we're talking about American. That is in the title of the post and subject of the article. If you want to talk about why some other country behaves, then go post a different article.
This ☝️
>This is a country founded on genocide, slavery, and lynching
Add to that Malignant Narcissism.
I also feel that due to the anonymity of the Web, the nastiness and trollery that had plagued Social Media has gotten worse and has spilled over wholesale into Real Life over time.
I worked in IT and was around when the Internet started to become widely used.
I knew back then with the anonymity of it that it would become a shitshow sooner or later.
Add to this the fact that the US had an amoral, racist, misogynistic, homophobic/transphobic, thoroughly miserable, profoundly Narcissistic and divisive former President, and this really didn't help matters at all.
Add to this too the perfect storm that was COVID and with it the extra helping of chaos, disruption, disablement, stress and hardship that it has caused and continues to cause.
Make no mistake though - the Folks who have been historically targeted are being targeted even more - it's just now members of the in - group are now getting a taste of it as well from others in their (THE) in - group.
Behaving has never meant anything other than knuckling under to well organized greed. When the aristocracy was bloodily forced out of parts of Europe, this was their first refuge of choice.
When consequences are as foreign as a billionaire is with jailtime, then all the leaders will be old, corrupt, wealthy, out-of-touch bigots where the most flagrant, impolite, uncivil behaviors get the most notoriety and discussions of the society.
Meanwhile the active, healthy, weathered-by-life, hardened, direct, humble, etc leaders are exploited until they abandon social leadership pursuits entirely.
Or as Douglas Adams and others have stated, "...anybody who actively pursues office and power should be disqualified from its access by that aspect alone." [paraphrased]
>Concepts such as healthy societies, sacrifice for refinement, growth, and progression, teamwork, group effort, justice and liberty for all, valid nobility, excellence, and more
What are you ... GAY?
/s
From unruly airline passengers to artists being hit by objects thrown by audience members, there has been a substantial increase in people have been acting out of line. Theme parks such as Disney have witnessed in increase in violent altercations as well. Social media is one part of this puzzle, with young people acting stupid for the clout.
This relates to collapse due to the fact that a rising number of full grown adults have been demonstrating completely out of line behavior in public and business settings. It may be due to effects of neurodegradation from COVID, underlying mental issues from the pandemic, social media, income inequality, lack of opportunities to climb the social ladder, loneliness, reduction of social cohesion and a myriad of other reasons why so many people have become pressure cookers about to blow off. Our society is not okay and people are not fine.
This is an issue that may get worse before some sort of improvement starts to happen.
With airline passengers, it's getting harder to blame them.
The seats are designed to give you as little room as mathematically possible, they literally won't even give up an inch. The planes are constantly delayed or cancelled and you're just fucked. Airports and planes are the only place where any discipline is enforced and you have to deal with a faceless cybernetic airline that isn't accountable to us in any way. Everything from the food to the seats is marked up as high as it can go and money buys you the best of everything and is flaunted.
I had to laugh at my last flight...one leg they changed our plane to a smaller one. Which means less first class etc seats. The attendant said "those of you that insist on being in first class are welcome to wait for the next flight. Those of you who just want to get to (city), you are welcome to board now and call the airline later for a refund of the difference". So money doesn't even guarantee anything!
I’m sitting on an airport floor right now while the airline tries to find our tickets in their shitty system while our plane is currently taking off. Not getting home today, apparently, or tomorrow for that matter.
I’ve always wondered, especially with all the travel fiasco’s lately, why they don’t have a small hotel in most of the bigger airports. You just see all these people laying on the floor and chairs, and it seems like a no-brainer, because it would be good for people, and it would make money. Smh.
So you take your frustration out on a bunch of airline workers who have no power or say on anything that will change the current state of airlines? They didnt design the planes. They didn’t set the prices. They Misguided anger tbh.
The diffusion of responsibility such that no one is ever responsible because “it was this other department that did it, I just do this thing” is part of this too.
The airline, or any other business, just has you over a barrel and there is little hope of recourse. This contributes to people being agitated and it boiling over or being taken out at the first opportunity
I don't think that's an excuse to do so, but if every part of the process introduces pain and discomfort of some fashion, people are likely to be more agitated throughout the process.
And with the only answer to bypass some issues is to pay more (ex. check luggage, plus/premium seating, TSA Precheck, etc.), it's a distinct case of creating the problem and selling folks the solution.
My thing is what does screaming and being aggressive towards Flight Attendant Cindy #1 or Baggage check-in teller Karmen #3 going to solve?
All that person being aggressive and stuff did was blow his/her load and achieved nothing of value or created any positive change to the situation in the process.
I get pissy too but screaming at some random worker who is literally just doing their job and have no say in the entire process isnt really accomplishing anything
Emotional outbursts are rarely filed under the "rational approach" of things.
People at their wits end (or just a severely bad day getting worse), due to \*gestures broadly to everything right now*, are more prone to irrational behaviors.
Yea, don't take it out on the lowest paid person near you, agreed, but higher levels of generalized anxiety, stress-inducing policies, and money issues gnawing at nearly everyone makes dealing with life's little extra issues likely to set more off more often.
Don't forget overbooking flights 120%, then kicking unsuspecting customers who thought reserving a seat meant they'd actually be flying on that flight.
I think it applies to collapse in another way as well.
We are seeing an expansion of what is accepted as normal. Also, what is accepted as not-normal but not-uncommon or noteworthy.
And we are seeing this at a time when things are relatively fine. The power is usually on. There is food at the store. It may take more time than you would like but you can still get most of what you want.
So, what happens when that isn't the case? We are expanding acceptable extreme behaviour before extreme events are common. Making the new behaviour that will be generated by those events more abnormal from our current baseline.
the social contract has been canceled. it’s alarming to say the least.
• Social contract theory says that people live together in society in accordance with an agreement that establishes moral and political rules of behavior. Some people believe that if we live according to a social contract, we can live morally by our own choice and not because a divine being requires it.
So I feel the social contract idea only works if people are getting something out of it by complying. We no longer get anything out of it. Corporations have bought the government and the average American has very little reward for hard work and civility.
the social contract isn’t the same as a feudalism contract though. it’s the norms and mores between people in our everyday interactions. whether the work culture has changed and our neofeudalism oligarchs haven’t been keeping up their end of the bargain (they haven’t) shouldn’t change the way plebs behave with other plebs. the communal rules have all changed. people are acting nihilistic in my opinion. like there’s no tomorrow so they don’t give af about any consequences. some of these consequences are pretty severe as well ranging from death to injury to loss of work to damage to their reputation. people are just in a dont give af mindset all day everyday in every interaction. we’ve gone off the fucking rails.
> like there’s no tomorrow so they don’t give af about any consequences
This, and also even for people who don't believe in collapse, it has become increasingly difficult to make ends meet economically, let alone make economic gains. If working hard no longer leads to a better life, why give af about society at all?
To be real I'm impressed it's held together as well as it did since it was dismantled in the 70s. I keep hearing it's not about money, well it is in part.
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
There isn't any "civilized" nation states if were being honest. I'd also say America has had quite a few social contracts over the decades but continually has broken them with little to no backlash from the wider population. Where did all the 2A advocates dissappear too when Regan took Black peoples guns?
That said though America does have a particularly terrible case of untreated Florida and religious extremism in all levels of government.
Pretty shit country but uncivilized is kind of a silly way of wording it.
It’s more than canceled. The common denominators of what is described as “woke” are, to my eye, tolerance and compassion. I believe I was taught that those are Christian values. Conservatives have not only agreed to ignore these fundamental teachings, now they have even decided that Jesus was “woke” and hate and rage are preferable. It’s bizarre.
the social contract is immediately voided by the assertion of authorities and hierarchies in society. no state in the world has or ever will have a true and functional social contract, as the mere existence of state power (and the institutions required to uphold it) stands in opposition to a social contract. the rule of law implies and requires the acceptance that people need to be told how to behave and need force exerted on them in order to stay behaved. by accepting and consigning yourself to the rule of law, and the power of the state, you forfeit your autonomy within the social contract.
human beings only became as incredible as we can be through our astounding capacity for compassion, learning, community, and adaptation. we are deeply social and mutualistic creatures. even an individual human is made of many components that miraculously cooperate (we have more bacterial cells than human ones! and that's just the very beginning...). together, we are more. and while principles of mutual aid are not unique to humanity, but we are uniquely capable of the level to which we can excel at them. and yet, we submit ourselves to the rule of law instead. ...sure would be nice if there was another way, huh?
(also, i don't think politics are relevant to social contract? it's about ethics and behaviour, which are things politics attempts to dictate.)
i don’t really agree with your prospective about the state contract nullifying the social contract. as a society we came to a point where huts became longhouses, became homes, became buildings, became villages to towns to cities to states to countries. at every level of that exponential growth which isn’t uniquely human but our presence necessitates the expansion of the social contract to become (drum roll) the rule of law. the rule of law is the social contract outside of individual social customs. people aren’t following either anymore. there seems to be a fundamental breakdown in civility, compassion between people.
sorry i'm trying not to get completely hung up on your baffling timeline of human architecture of shelter but i, yeah, nah. nevermind that bit bc, like...
maybe for you. maybe you've been exceptionally lucky and priviledged. but in my experience and observation, civility and compassion are always in short supply when control is being asserted. establish a dominator culture, and people behave accordingly.
or maybe that's just my gay, jewish ass talking.
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Social media certainly has had something to do with it. I remember up until mid-way through the 2010's, it felt like people were making a genuine effort to be more compassionate towards one another. Now it feels like the anti-sjw, anti-woke dogma has gone completely off the rails. Suddenly people are super in-your-face, going out of their way to be unapologetically nasty. Our social fabric has been torn apart, and I have my doubts we're getting back to that state of common empathy any time soon.
It has a ton to do with it. You’re being bombarded constantly with bad news, negativity and then people arguing about all of it 24-7. It’s good to be informed but I don’t think our brains were wired for this much this often. Ignorance is bliss!
This is going to be controversial but I think part of the problem is younger Boomers and older Gen-Xers^* who never spanked their kids, tried to get around the word "No" with soft arguments and bullshit, and simply didn't discipline their kids.
Oh they *thought* they disciplined the little shits, but the kid left every "punishment" feeling like they got away with whatever they fucking did, and so they kept doing it.
Just a simple spank on the arse. Open hand, on bare gluteus maximus.
"I'm causing you pain because I love you and I need you to understand that you did is wrong."
I'm not talking about punching the kid in the face or beating them with a stick or switch. Just a spank on the bum with a declaration of *why*, with the addition that it's done out of love and prevention.
"I love you, and I don't want you to turn into a spoiled little shit."
We know that key points of growing up and development are reinforced by emotional and social context. Just think of any embarrassing stupid shit you did when you were a kid.
Now think of those times when you did something that was either so reckless you could have died, or so stupid you needed your Mother to yank you back and shout, "No!"
Imagine if every time you did something wrong, either Mum or Dad would ask you if you knew you did something wrong, and told you not to do it again, *and that was it*. Does anything there reinforce the idea not to do it again? Fuck no, it's weak as piss, "feel good parenting" where no-one has to feel any pain or discomfort, and it does absolutely *fuck all* in reinforcing a sense of right and wrong, and looking before you leap.
It's bullshit, and it's why we've got so many fuckheads today with zero self-awareness, self-entitled to do whatever they want for social media (including breaking into people's homes and stealing cars), and always bleating "I didn't do anything wrong!" when they eventually get arrested after a fuck-head spree of stupidity.
You’re talking about corporal punishment, which has been repeatedly shown to have a negative effect on cognitive development.
WHO
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/corporal-punishment-and-health
NIH
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/
American Psychological Assoc.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/physical-discipline
Harvard
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/04/spanking-children-may-impair-their-brain-development/
Discipline shouldn’t involve striking children. Full stop.
If they’re old enough to understand what the issue is, and that “punishment X is due to action Y”, then hitting them (even with an open hand, or whatever justifications people use to lessen the impact of “physically striking a child”) is just shit parenting and a failure as a rational being.
If the child is *not* able to link X to Y, then all they know is that you’re striking them, which is…shit parenting and a failure as a rational being.
We’ve really got to stop the survivor bias around being hit as children. Look at the older generations, rod never spared, and tell me that they aren’t dealing with deeply rooted generational trauma and abuse. Literally all the hallmarks are there, as they are with many, many children who just got periodic “swats” in addition to what we think of as abuse.
It’s all generational rationalization without merit. If they struck a child, your otherwise saintly grandparents were wrong, your parents were wrong for it, and, whenever you choose to strike a child, you’re wrong as well.
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Truly? Because, word for word, your views are the exact same as that expressed in the book. Which is probably why you're getting down voted.
Here's a quote.
-
“..These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. News organs and officials usually kept their names secret - in many places the law so required for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage.”
(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)
“Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law,” he had gone on. “Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as ‘cruel and unusual punishment.’” Dubois had mused aloud, “I do not understand objections to ‘cruel and unusual’ punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment - and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.
“As for ‘unusual,’ punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose.”
-
The. Exact. Same.
You really should then.
Robert Heinlein is one hell of a writer. The film does absolutely no respect to it.
Paul Veerhoeven wanted to tell a satirical parody of fascism, jingoistic nationalism, and militarism. From that lens, the movie is fantastic and definitely worth watching.
But Robert Heinlein's book is emphatically NOT a satire. Like most sci-fi, it attempts to show a plausible future for humanity if we continue on our current path. One which the writer probably hopes will come to pass.
I’m squarely Gen X with Boomer aged parents, both lean liberal, and I got my ass walloped a good bit in the early 1970s for doing dumb ass things.
If anything, Gen X is probably the last generation of kids to widely be spanked. We didn’t spank our little millennial shits, and they’re not spanking Gen z—widely speaking. You can’t even look at a kid sideways these days without “triggering” them.
I’m not disagreeing with you on using a punishment/consequences model for improving behavior; I am disagreeing with your generational generalizations.
They've also apparently forgotten how to drive.
I thought it was just me being ornery, old me thinking drivers have just become morons but it seems like a lot of people are noticing the same.
Its not the pandemic that's the cause, I agree fully. There has been a shift in the last 5-8 years that just seems to keep compounding. Bad behavior affects more than just being impolite/rude. It seeps into overall attitudes towards things like being behind the wheel.
I think part of what's happened here is a combination of losing the societal barrier we had of not publically expressing certain harmful, negative sentiments because of reprisal and a sense that many are starting to come to terms with seeing how truly we're fucked and its not because of some events outside of human control but something we've (royal "we") done to ourselves for nothing more than profit.
Put those two things together and you get *waves hand outward towards America*...
this.
Since the pandemic I see WAY more people running stop signs, exiting drive throughs without looking or even stopping, turning into oncoming traffic etc.
I used to be a pizza delivery guy so I was on the road all day and bad driving seems WAY more common today.
Covid has been proven again and again and again to cause brain damage in *SOME* people. That HAS to be factored into the equation.
I know everyone’s done with Covid and blah blah blah, but what about the millions that’ve become disabled (likely long-term) from infection?
Look at SARS1 survivors and how they’re doing today. Not very good whatsoever….
>Americans have forgotten how to behave. Stop blaming the pandemic.
How about the way people are raised in the US? Remember the everyone-gets-a-trophy phase? Or, how about the never-say-"no" phase of positive reinforcement only? Or helicopter parenting? Or the Blame Game?
I could go on but none of the above was in effect when I was a child and when I see the behavior of people these days it's shocking. And sad. So very sad. Lots of unhappiness and frustration.
What a shock it must be to a child who got a trophy for just showing up to find as an adult it's a very competative world out there! Or the never-say-no raised kid who grows up to find that life often says, "No!" Or, how about the child raised to think that learning must be *interesting* or *fun* and is unable to cope with the harsh reality that learning can also be a real hard grind! And, what's with adulting? Parents in my day raised their children to *be* adults.
So no, don't blame the pandemic. Bad behavior in America has been a long time in the making.
Humans are showing every single sign of zoochosis lol.
When there is so little control or connection, psychologically to protect ourselves as creatures we become more self-interested. Because that is what we control and what we are connected to. Ourself, and ourself alone.
The child-rearing paradigms of previous generations have collectively traumatized generations and spawned huge cohorts of Cluster B Personality Disorder-ed individuals, now highlighted on social and news media. They are further amplified by reality tv and the like.
People in my neighborhood are really intolerable now. Just nasty, mean, argumentative and terrible at driving. We have a lot of city workers here. Lots of police, firemen, teachers etc. All the people who probably got Covid repeatedly. If you told me 80% of people in my area are brain damaged I'd believe it.
I wanna talk about me, wanna talk about i
Wanna talk about number one, oh my, me my
What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see
I like talking about you, you, you, you usually
But occasionally, I wanna talk about me (me, me, me, me)
I wanna talk about me (me, me)
> If you told me 80% of people in my area are brain damaged I'd believe it.
If you think everyone around you is 'brain damaged'...then you are the damaged one.
This is true but only out of America. I travel to other countries and then come back to America and see it like this, it's probably even higher than 80%. Something is seriously wrong with the majority of Americans behaviors and actions
> If you told me 80% of people in my area are brain damaged I'd believe it.
Nowadays everyone just labels it as "mental health issues" so they don't have to accept any real responsibility for their actions.
As someone with actual mental health issues, I absolutly agree with this. There is a sizable amount of people that try to gain labels just to justify shitty behavour or feel "special".
It does nothing but hurt everyone involved.
Covid devastating our society is a midwit take. Covid was the straw that broke the camel’s back, at most (social media/ internet addiction would be a better guess). This has been brewing for generations. Our “culture” is based on war, consumerism, and “hustle”.
This is the right answer. People have been getting worse for ages, but covid just made them realize that being that much of an asshole would be tolerated, at least to some extent.
"I can be as rude, callous and generally shitty as I want, and at MOST someone will chew me out. Most likely just some dirty looks."
>"I can be as rude, callous and generally shitty as I want, and at MOST someone will chew me out. Most likely just some dirty looks."
While true.
The karma is like built in to that one. No, no one's going to come and beat you up over it or steal your shoes.
It's built in.
Meaning, you damage yourself, and you create a habit of damaging yourself.
The coolest part is, it's pretty much invisible. Until it isn't.
We had a man in office mocking a disabled man on national TV well before COVID. That alone gave anyone with even an ounce of inner assholery to go full asshole outwardly.
I think he wasn’t yet in office when he did this. If we’re talking about the guy I think we are talking about. But your point is valid. The country elected the man-baby.
Well the real question would be why, and the answer would be because both coastlines ignored the last 30 years of screams coming from the countries interior.
Americans haven’t forgotten how to behave. We’re behaving in a predictable manner. We’re over-worked, under paid, and stressed out. Anger, aggression and lack of self control are manifestations of stress and anxiety. We are unwell.
People are becoming worse assholes than ever, but it's not because we forgot how to interact politely with other humans, it's simply an exaggerated sense of entitlement due to social media's perfusion into everything.
That's a vast over simplification, in the most complex society that ever existed, there cannot be just one explanation. Just like the collapse of the western Roman empire, historians continue to say it was a combination of many overlapping issues and events, so is our social predicament today.
I mean, I just summed up the article. I don't believe it completely either. Long COVID has, to my knowledge, indicated some behavioral and mental changes akin to lead poisoning--eg: loss of impulse control, aggression, general mental degradation...
Blaming social media sounds like the ancients believing books were evil, then TV, then video games, so on.
The blinders are taken off for a lot of people and they got really uncomfortable so they doubled down instead. I was at a bar a few days before lockdown were announced and looked around and thought we are either all going to lock arms and sing songs together after this or everyone is going to become a major asshole. But I knew in the back of my mind it was going to be the latter given the political climate in the US.
Yeah. The pandemic didn't cause it, it just whipped back the curtain. The rot - the breakdown of civil society - was there all along, it was just suddenly made inescapably plain to its members who had been living in denial of how bad it had gotten until then.
I saw WSJ was able to disable the various ways to bypass paywalls recently too.
When they all catch on, we're going to be collectively dumber as a society. This is because although I enjoy reading about current events, I'd never pay money to do so.
Knowledge is and always should be free for the greater good.
the greater good has largely been ignored except for keystone points in the human timeline like the invention of penicillin and it being made free by its discoverer alexander fleming who did not want to patent it. humanity seems to go through leaps and bounds when these monumental moments happen and only help when it’s done in a utilitarian way.
[here](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.latimes.com%2Fentertainment-arts%2Fstory%2F2023-08-17%2Fconcerts-movies-airplanes-restaurants-theme-parks-bad-behavior-theory-column%3Futm_source%3Dreddit.com) you go. Love 12ft to remove paywall.
tysm i never heard of this👀 wow and what a long ass article but in a historical perspective it’s really important that all these particular niche issues have been forever encapsulated really well in it.
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There’s a lurch to the right happening all over the world. “Libertarians”, “Populists” with all the attendant rudeness and hatred. There’s no sense of community if all anyone focuses on is hatred of the other.
G’nite and thanks for all the fish.
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It's probably the end-result of hyper individualism magnified and exponentially perpetuated by social media and fueled by capitalism, and Covid is just coincidental or a minor part of it.
I say it's because tou can't kick anyone's ass anymore, because you'll lose your ass in a lawsuit.
Back in the good old days, you could throw down real quick, get a few scratches or a concussion if both combatants were smart and stopped when fair, and call it square.
Now, people can rely on lawyers twisting reality to make a loophole for them, so they ball-to-the-wall confrontation over whatever they're in the mood for. Barely-checked aggression is the nirm.
True, you always hear about how 'an eitgth of an inch further over and the artery woukd be severed and hed have died', or 'it was just a tap on the noggin, hiw did he die??'
Bodies are delicate and strong :(
Nuh. Americans never really wanted to behave. The reduced police presence and higher threshold for arrest and prosecution since George Floyd — which happened right after the pandemic started — is what's emboldening people to act how they want.
Some people have, not all. But wow are we fed the fuck up with those who can’t. It’s to the point where if one of these hateful, selfish pricks steps over a line with me I’m going to go zero restraint on them for it.
I am not registering to read a fucking article. Speaking of how to behave...
It's almost like social norms are good and proper behavior should be encouraged. Turns out subjective morality just leads to no standards.
When those in power, both politicians and celebrities, don’t act in accordance with societal standards and without morals then society will follow their lead. We have the 1% living lives of wanton excess, corruption and disregard towards humanity and, people ignorant enough, will believe that it’s okay to act in the same manner. The “adults” in society are setting a horrible and dangerous example and the “kids” are just blindly following them towards collapse
With the housing crisis, price gouging, wage theft and our government basically having no shame in putting it out there they’re bought out by corporations and not giving a damn about helping us after a pandemic how are we supposed to behave? Everyone’s so mad instead of taking it out on those who deserve it we’ve been taking it out on those in the same hell.
Our society has forgotten how to behave. If I don’t like you, instead of discussing it, I will cancel you! Or I will do something else terrible to you!!
People were always terrible, but they had to hide it or simply keep it in check a few years ago.
Now? Oh, it’s the fucking *worst*
If anyone works in customer service, I’m sorry.
The decadence of a society in terminal decline. Assuming humanity survives, "America" for future generations will be what "Sodom & Gomorrah" was for us.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/XL_Jockstrap:
---
From unruly airline passengers to artists being hit by objects thrown by audience members, there has been a substantial increase in people have been acting out of line. Theme parks such as Disney have witnessed in increase in violent altercations as well. Social media is one part of this puzzle, with young people acting stupid for the clout.
This relates to collapse due to the fact that a rising number of full grown adults have been demonstrating completely out of line behavior in public and business settings. It may be due to effects of neurodegradation from COVID, underlying mental issues from the pandemic, social media, income inequality, lack of opportunities to climb the social ladder, loneliness, reduction of social cohesion and a myriad of other reasons why so many people have become pressure cookers about to blow off. Our society is not okay and people are not fine.
This is an issue that may get worse before some sort of improvement starts to happen.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/15u1x0b/americans_have_forgotten_how_to_behave_stop/jwn5b78/
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