I mean it's what Putin paid for. The end of Nato that is.
He wants Trump to sow discontent and to sabotage the union as well as make the US as unreliable as possible.
It's pretty simple honestly, divide and conquer
NATO is already done until trump is gone. Does anyone truly beleive that trump would come to Europe's aid if Russia attacked?
I suspect if Russia said: I'll give u rare earth's and stop being mates with China
Trump would be like.. OK you can have Poland.
I honestly don't know why Europeans (or anyone else for that matter) would trust the U.S. after this fucking shitshow.
If, and that's a big if, things turn around somehow what's stopping it from sinking back into this pit in 4 years.
The cracks are there. I'm really hoping for some new agreements/negotiations/ whatever.
Tbh it's long overdue. In.europe we've had behaved like children reliant on America to guarantee our security.
We laugh, mock.and condemn America are every opportunity...we routinely say they are dumb as fuck...but all the time we rely on them to keep us safe.
Nah, it's just to keep sending on millitary, because that's good business for many people including a lot of politicians. Partially it's also extortion to USA, because if EU is (at least most of) united USA is our only real threat. Russia is not strong enough for long time. Sure Russia can win with Ukraine left alone, or Poland left alone, or Baltics etc. but it's not a contender for whole EU (even less with UK, Norway etc).
Of course we should develop defense technology to keep us safe for things like happen in Venezuela. But USA keeping us safe only from USA and no one else.
Russia backfilled by PRC could push into Germany and Poland. It’s not really a debate. Europe has been weak a long time and hasn’t conscripted what it needs, hasn’t positioned on fronts, hasn’t shown united front.
Ukraine essentially didn't have a military until 2014 and Russia couldn't manage that, you think they'd realistically take the entirety of Poland and push into Germany? Russia would be an existential threat to the baltics, but not a shot against Poland. Russian doctrine massively favours defence in depth, which they are very good at, but doesn't do them any favours on the offensive. I do absolutely think we should still focus on a united European military, both arms manufacturing and command structure.
Yes. Ukraine is a citizen army fighting with the best infantry arsenal in the world. Javelins caught tanks to the point that Russia has had to keep up artillery bombardments since to prevent loss of ground. All of it in condensed ground. EU right now does not have near enough soldiers much less sufficient equipment to defend the open territory that is modern Europe. Russia backfilled by PRC would make it into Germany without outside intervention. Mark my words, Russia is going to use those same youngsters from partitioned Ukraine as shock troops..along with multiple other satellites.
It doesn’t have to be some single force, but it needs to be singular mission. Right now there aren’t enough troops and the pieces are working together, aren’t positioned on fronts, aren’t ready to collapse on would be points of failure. MORE, needs to be MORE or real war is guaranteed.
Ukraine didn't have all the equipment it has now when the war broke out and even then they fought well, I don't know how you can think Russia has a chance of rolling through Poland. I am inclined to agree that we should assume that they could, purely to strengthen our military, but they couldn't, even with Chinese help, help that I think is exceedingly unlikely. Russia has nothing to offer China but their natural resources, and I think it would be much more likely for China to conquer siberia than help Russians in a foolish attack the EU
When the war started, Ukraine had javelins and were gutting the Russian armored core. The Russians started knocking down building trying to prevent cover positions. Then Russia went to artillery, full artillery, everywhere. None of the bad tanks did much for Ukraine, nor did the target rounds, nor did the hobby supplies.
PRC has been behind Russian expansionism since the beginning. Ukraine is literally the new source for food that Putin promised Xi after Russia failed to generate greenhouse farms and other nonsense. The trade is military materials and backfill for food security; so Putin can play Peter the Great…reassemble the old satellites.
Russia has full option on NK infantry, logistics and “peacekeepers” from PRC, material support from PRC and NK… more than enough to break nonexistent EU lines. Get troops, get positions, or get set to run. Mainland Europe is literally all France before the outbreak of WWII, I don’t understand how people can’t see it. US hasn’t left entirely yet, so, guess there’s that.
France isn’t going to nuke Russian forces because it doesn’t want Russia to nuke them back. France would literally watch allies fall, declaring such weapons are only for the territorial integrity of France. France isn’t going to position what would be necessary to drag out a fight in Finland, or it would have everyone there already.
UK is good intentioned, but is not EU, is not nearly as connected as it once was, is not what it once was.
Not sure where the armies would come from to defend. Conscription years ago?
Not sure where the munitions would come from. Stockpiles are low now. What’s the stock point once Berlin grids go down again? What’s the petrochemical source without Russia and easily harassed coastlines?
I didn’t say Europe would lose, just that Putin could get into Germany without outside intervention. Once he’s made it that far though, he can conscript from everything behind him, same as always.
The insider game is PRC gets Russia to assume all the risks while making Russia an economic colony of PRC. Super best friends, right? What’s wrong with friendly business interests taking over while Russia bleeds itself? It’s a con, PRC thinks as long as it’s not the guy directly pulling the trigger, nobody will notice nor hold them responsible.
Look at Russian demographics. They already lost most of thier young men that they can sacrifice to fight. And they will be no new ones. Only 70% of Russia citizens are Russians. Rest are different nations conquered and colonized by Russia. Russia using them as cannon fodder, but at the same time they need to keep them in check. They have huge territory and extremally long borders. Almost all they need to protect. They also need strong military inside to protect regime. Otherwise someone like Prigozhin would just run at Moscow or take control over some territory.
If they capture Ukraine they would have another problem inside theirs border. They couldn't use Ukrainians to fight against Poland or Germany. Keeping Ukraine under control would cost them a lot. That's why they are not even trying to do that. They only captured regions with Russians majority before the war
They're only safe because of nukes and oil money. But they run out of oil money.
You could argue that they could use everything they got to run on Poland and maybe even some parts of Germany. But then what? Then they would collapse and implode.
They can and will conscript Ukrainian kids for their expansion project.
Russia will backfill logistics and “peacekeeper” functions to PRC troops. NK will gladly sell Russia frontline mercenaries on the cheap. Russia will conscript heavily from its satellites, same as always. Russia is clearly gearing for a fight, a big fight, a nonsense fight that Peter the Great would be proud of.
Putin has been taking territory a long time. Haven’t seen it implode on him yet.
My literal assessment is such a play would make it into at least Germany without outside intervention. EU is complacent, is WWII France right now.
Russia still has oil money, trading straight over for war materials. Maybe some offshore rigs need to burn too. Maybe some deep wells should have caught fire. Maybe the “Finish oil fleet” should have burned and the bankers should have gone to jail. Again, complacency in the face of reality helps nothing.
This is rubbish. we rely on diplomacy and more so on rules based order to keep us safe .
European armies arm logically small because we have achieved 80 years of peace for first time in a 1000 years or more . We have military alliances to provide surety.
>This is rubbish
U know there's comedy gold coming after this. ..
>we rely on diplomacy and more so on rules based order to keep us safe .
>European armies arm logically small because we have achieved 80 years of peace for first time in a 1000 years or more . We have military alliances to provide surety.
>The support provide by the US is not out of kindness, it’s to keep Russia back, and provide markets for their corporations
Yep....here it is....
>We laugh, mock.and condemn America are every opportunity...we routinely say they are dumb as fuck...but all the time we rely on them to keep us safe.
You say this, but Europe on its own is no slouch. It's Nuclear, has several aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, a huge number of escort crafts and submarine. More active duty and more reserve personal than the US, a sizable Airforce, more tanks, SPGs and IFVs than the US.
Yes Europe does not have the expeditionary capabilities, or the very top of the line Airspace tech. But anyone thinking that a united Europe is a pushover is sorely mistaken. And maybe that's why pretty much every single one of Europe's geopolitical adversaries is pushing so much to fracture it.
>You say this, but Europe on its own is no slouch. It's Nuclear, has several aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, a huge number of escort crafts and submarine. More active duty and more reserve personal than the US, a sizable Airforce, more tanks, SPGs and IFVs than the US.
So with all due respect....this tells me you don't really understand what you're talking about.
Yes...some nations have this equipment. But the reality is...we don't have the manufacturing base to keep them in a prolonged fight.
We don't make patriot missiles. I'm not even sure we have an analogue for that system for example.
So we'd run out of ammo pretty quickly.
Let's remember masses of our kit has american parts....that rely on americwn infrastructure. There's a reason why we couldn't single handedly hand over f16s to Ukraine for example.
Sexy kit like you talk about....that's all well and good. But of a cheap swarm of drones destroys our kit...we don't have the facilities to replace it at the speed needed.
I agree we aren't a slouch....and in a short term war I think we'd do well....but not for long. The UK ran out of bombs in Libya....how would we act in a war with a peer....how much ammo do we have...73 hours? A week? A month? Less?
Any situation wjere there is a full scale conflict between two nuclear powers the size of the arsenal isn’t really relevant. That’s why MAD exist. That’s why tjrrr has never been a conflict between two nuclear powers. Because nobody is that stupid.
They want Greenland sure but nobody is risking ww3 for a non important block of land that is mostly ice.
Please don't underestimate how fucking stupid our country and it's leadership have become.
I don't THINK we'd do it but at this point I'm no longer certain.
> Yes...some nations have this equipment. But the reality is...we don't have the manufacturing base to keep them in a prolonged fight.
And that is where you are wrong. A LARGE number of ammunition producers are European. Europe now also outproduces the US in Artillery shells and Missile production. The initial disparity was that Europe held MUCH lower peace-time stocks, meaning that the ammunition crisis that happens at the start of every peer-to-peer war (Literally look into it, we had the "shell crisis" in WW1, Similar in WW2 etc)
Europe needs to make some adjustments, and accept much higher peacetime military spending, but pretending like there isn't the know-how and capacity just because before the Aim 9 is more well known that the IRST, the Aim 120 than the Meteor, the M270 than the MARS, the F-16 than the Eurofighter shows you lack deeper understanding of the larger arms market.
> We don't make patriot missiles. I'm not even sure we have an analogue for that system for example.
See the comment about high end Airospace systems. But again its not as if second tier systems are harmless.
> Let's remember masses of our kit has american parts....that rely on americwn infrastructure. There's a reason why we couldn't single handedly hand over f16s to Ukraine for example.
And why they DID get Mirage and Grippen without the US (just slower as again, lower peacetime stocks meant rampup has to happen first)
> Sexy kit like you talk about....that's all well and good. But of a cheap swarm of drones destroys our kit...we don't have the facilities to replace it at the speed needed.
Drone "swarms" that despite years of war that is HEAVELY reliant on drones still have yet to materialise... and the UK already having Dragonfire deployed on its warships, every German Puma IFV having anti drone airbust munition (See AHEAD shells) and the new Skynext Systems rolling off the factory lines as we speak.
>I agree we aren't a slouch....and in a short term war I think we'd do well....but not for long. The UK ran out of bombs in Libya....how would we act in a war with a peer....how much ammo do we have...73 hours? A week? A month? Less?
This is where the crux lies. Europe has been neglecting its domestic production capacity and stock levels for decades. But not just out of laziness, but also because the US HEAVELY encouraged it. They pushed behind closed doors, gave rebates, tied trade agreements, joint military procurement and Standardisations to follow US requirements, including using US tech.
Is this purely a bad thing? No, the US makes good kit, but we need to get out of the doomerism and actually get our asses in gear. It's a problem, but a solvable one. (And GOD DAM do I hate just how doomer everyone in the UK has gotten since 2012 about literally everything)
There has been a significant decoupling from America in critical industry over the last year. I work in space tech, we don’t even use American digital systems anymore.
The US doesn't have the manufacturing capability either if they can't process their own rare earths, so they're beholden to China for that. Mining stuff is easy, refining and processing facilities take over a decade.
I hope you're not talking about the world wars because that would be the stupidest example to bring up against the idea that there is no such thing as united Europe.
The whole reason there were world wars is because of all the alliances.
If it was "every country for themselves" then it would have been Austria vs Serbia, the end.
Europe's vulnerability in a global war against e.g. US, Russia, China is probably energy security. That might also be a defense, in that it partially explains why much of Europe isn't a high value strategic target for these players.
what? Gladio is a historical fact. the CIA files have been opened for years now, we know exactly what happened and why. how it lead to the wave of manufactured left-right terrorism in Italy and the dictatorship in Greece. why are you talking about "rewriting history"???
America had kept Europe safe. You pretend it's not true...it is. Without American funding we'd not have recovered from ww2 as we did. Without their troops in Europe the Soviets may well have come. Without their money places like Greece wouldn't have been able to retire so early or for us to have universal healthcare.
Are they perfect...no. but if you wanna pretend it's all bad...you're rewriting history
recovering economically from ww2 is not protection
saying "the Soviets **may** have come" is an opinion, not a fact
universal healthcare is taken care off by the US and not our taxes? can you prove this please?
i'm not "rewriting history", i gave you historical facts, look up Operation Gladio.
Dude why the fuck do you keep mentioning operation Gladio as if it's some sort of gatcha? At the top of international politics, things get messy. But ultimately, the USA provided ENORMOUS security allowing Europe to fart around and afford social programs that the US couldn't because they were funding the MIC
i keep mentioning Gladio because i have basic moral standards. the US has been using my country Greece to experiment with organizing terrorist paramilitaries from the late 40s (look up the creation of LOK). they installed a dictatorship. they mingled directly in our politics for decades. if you were Greek and were find with all that, you would be the most spineless coward
if you think the US doesnt have social programs because they are funding those in the EU you are extremely naive. American private healthcare providers have lobbied for this system to work the way it works. the US could change it overnight, but their politicians have been bought by corporations. same thing with multiple other social programs.
Half the world's military budget is the USA.... And they've been building it for decades. They have 170 military bases, mostly in Europe... To protect Europe. Those bases are there so Russia knows that if they ever want to come around for another fight, Europe is prepared. If you don't see the benefit in that, I don't know what to tell you. Go start a bunch of smaller militaries and go back to fighting each other for centuries.
so the military bases of the USSR in Poland were to protect the Poles? the military bases of Britain in 1800s Afganistan were to protects the Afgans? the military bases of Rome in ancient Spain were there to protect the CeltIberians? you are incredibly naive. the US bases here are to extend the reach of the US military, to work as spying centers and to show power and hegemony over the local authorities.
i like how you didnt bring a counter-argument to the things i said, but instead tried to move on to another argument. that doesnt look great you know, not the sign of a formidable debate participant...
Yes I feel silly explaining how mutual benefits work. America gets influence, and you get security.
Or you know, we could just pull out of Ukraine, and let you guys deal with the Russian empire ambitions all on your own. You clearly don't think you need the USA.
you got Ukraine set up for war, with the promises about NATO membership and the disarmament deal. Biden had said it in the 90s that this would happen, and he's proven right. i dont know if you havent read about Euromaidan or if you pretend to be unaware. this was an imperialist move by the US that backfired, but now Ukranians are paying the price. its a continuation of the leaked Wolfowitz Doctrine, that most Americans seem to not have any idea about.
I'm very familiar with the situation. I was forced to specialize in it. Yes the movement into Ukraine was pure greed from the EU who wanted their newly discovered LNG just discovered off the coast. Which was incredibly dumb because everyone knows not to touch Ukraine. Then the US tried to get bold and invite them again, while believing they could pressure Ukraine into a fight with the promise that the crippling sanctions would lead to a regime change... Because everyone knows Ukraine wont beat Russia. Which also failed.
Oh aye the US is doing all this out the kindness of it's proverbial heart. The world's first and only altruistic nation right?
Impressive levels of naivety.
What's not computing. Everyone gains from a hegemonic USA and security protections. The USA gets to be a super power, and Europe gets safety. Just look at history whenever there was no super power... The world becomes a mess.
> afford social programs that the US ~~couldn't~~ **wouldn't**
US healthcare spending per capita is [twice that of Denmark, 3 times that of France.](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locations=US). It's an ideological choice, not a "sorry dear Americans, no universal healthcare for you because we're paying for Europe's military protection" kind of choice.
Who's the dumb one? The group that give over control of their defence infrastructure to a nation on the other side of the world or the country that uses its might to take it....
>Yeah it sucks being right all the time
Yeah maybe we're wrong.
... we're forced to have their bases on our soil, we're forced to buy their weapons, we're forced to buy their tech... We're not reliant on them, we're forced to have them as masters and we're the obedient dogs. Notably France is not, guess why.
Its also completely ahistorical to just act like this wasnt out of necessity.
Europe has been naive. But look at history and maybe examine some of the reasons why we did.
Its easy to just say now how stupid it was.
I mean...this is nonsense. Absolute rubbish. People have been calling for increased defense spending for decades.
Sorry but your point is so easily disproven it deserves ridicule tbh
It'll take a lot more than simple new deals. There is still the problem of 150 million people who voted for him.
How do you trust a country where so many people can be so easily manipulated into voting against their own best interests? Like you'd figure the pedophile, felon, con artist, or foreign agent things would be giant red flags. Nope. All you need is some TikTok and a boogeyman.
150 million people didn’t vote for him though? Maybe if you want to count no-shows, but that’s not voting for him.
If you want to be thoroughly disingenuous, sure you could try that. It would make one feel better, at the expense of ignoring the fact that the growth of far-right politics in the West is due to their ability to exploit domestic concerns.
But acknowledging that wouldn’t be very comforting, now would it? Easier to put your head in the sand and believe it’s not something that could happen here because you’re smarter than that and aren’t possibly prone to the same things that affect humans.
What a condescending response to some off the cuff math lol.
Okay, 77,284,118 morons. Happy?
The rest of your comment adds nothing to the conversation.Youre literally making rhe same point as me just from a different angle.
I dunno if its bots, or age or what but the levels of reading comprehension I encounter on this subreddit in particular are disturbingly low. So many people here seem to read like 4 words then completely toss out the rest of the comment.
Despite posting incorrect information, we are in agreement that this is a wider issue in the West, and not just limited to America. It would make little sense to isolate ourselves and try solve this problem on our own instead working together to find a more durable solution.
Implying that this issue uniquely affects Americans to the exclusion of others blinds one to the fact this phenomenon occurred simultaneously across the West, and largely over economic woes which the far sides of politics have exploited. Patterns in Germany, France, and even Canada have been concerning to say the least.
In Germany, the ruling right-wing CDU/CSU party is musing a coalition with the far-right AfD which has grown out of its East German shelter and into the mainstream. The firewall has been damaged, and the same economic discontent which led to Trump 2 accelerated their growth.
In France, Macron’s centrists are boxed between the far-left and the far-right, both which have gained power in a divided National Assembly, and both have their own special way of shitcanning the EU and NATO while cozying up to Russia. Again, for much the same reasons. Do not be surprised if either of them starts talking about liberating Quebec.
We fight this threat together. Not draw barriers to that. That’s what they want us to do.
I don't think you lot actually realise how far beyond trust your country is at the moment. This won't be resolved for something like 20 years at a minimum.
Well I don’t doubt it. I was just trying to emphasize that we need to pass laws to prevent this, addressing weaknesses. But tbh, I will be surprised if we will
I think it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Is there sonething else you see? Im scared to ask, but hit us with ut
No country is going to trust a political system where alliances and agreements might last four years if they're lucky. Capital likes stability.
The veneer of acceptability that the US projected whilst conducting interventionist policies across the world has now worn off and it's not going back on, ever. Your days of freely dictating to the entire planet are gone.
All elections are handled and regulated by the states and only the states. The federal government has zero control over any U.S. elections for federal office. Surprising as that seems, it’s been that way since 1789.
That’s why their attempts to influence elections involve Republican-led states attempting to redraw electoral districts to favor Republicans, which have met resistance by both Republicans and Democrats that do want free and fair elections. Democrats have actively countered such attempts by Republican-led states by… countering their redrawing efforts with their own. Most notably in California.
As someone in the states, people here don’t believe that Trump cares about laws. That’s why there is a widespread civil disobedience campaign, from strategic boycotts to mutual support groups that have developed local early warning networks to mobilize pop-up protests that bodyblock ICE raids and in many cases have prevented them from making any arrests.
ICE agents have been subject to doxxing attacks, with the identity and residences of agents revealed. Others within support groups have quietly armed themselves, just in case. Even local police forces have refused to cooperate with federal law enforcement, and are beginning to consider more… forceful opposition.
Just so you know what’s going on stateside. Given the trends, opposition toward Trump will grow much more forceful. I don’t think media would be able to ignore it.
I really feel sad for the non maga Americans.
The whole Greenland thing is a load of shite considering the US has a base there. What's worse is Danes, NATO, Australia all stood firmly with you after 9/11 and in Afghanistan, died for the US, and then we get told we are actually freeloaders and threats to invade a territory of a country who lost people defending the US.
It's so unbelievable bad I can't even describe it.
Trust means nothing when monetary incentives are involved, no one in their right mind will stop all trade with the single largest consumer block on the planet.
How you feel and your emotions around a country don’t matter that’s just childish stupidity. The world doesn’t work that way
They are already signing new agreements with the US cut out. The deals are worse than what they replaced, but they have trust in the other partners not throwing a tantrum in a few years to make things worse. We're less than 1 percent of the global population, they can outlast us in trade, and will feel a trade war less than the US
Sure sure~ other countries are already weaker than the US and the more weak they become the easier it will be to ignore them on the global stage. Shooting your self in the foot by refusing to trade with the largest consumer block on earth will just expidite that process. You might feel like your “protest” against America is a good thing but it just makes you irrelevant faster.
Welcome to how the world works buddy, can’t win with feelings and emotions or what you think is “right” lmfao
I'm American, dumbass. You also clearly didn't understand a single thing I said. We're going to feel the pain of Trump isolating us much more than the countries he's starting trade wars with.
Ok blub, again not how the world works but sure. It would take decades to untangle from the US economy and would cripple most countries economies to do so which would again just serve to widen the gap between them and the US. For every country that does choose to stop dealing with America there will be 5 more that sees the economic opportunity by filling that gap. You really think people won’t jump at the opportunity to become rich?
China stops selling us spoons, a business man in France will jump through hoops to sell up spoons and fill that gap
Stop making emotional decisions and think logically, must be hard without testosterone but try for once
> . It would take decades to untangle from the US economy
It would take one country refusing to accept US dollars as a medium of trade, a policy which China is actively pursuing.
Thinking logically is what they're doing by abandoning a trading partner who has been proven unreliable due to people who are scientifically proven to think with emotion(there actually is a study that found out that Republicans have larger amygdalas than Democrats who had larger frontal cortexes). That's why you don't see the 5 more countries chomping at the bit to come to the table, the gains are unreliable
Lmfao man 3 years and trump will be gone, another year or two and people will already have forgotten half of what he did during his presidency, how long do you think it would take to stop having trade deals with the largest consumer block while not crippling your economy in the process? And how long before anyone decides they’d rather be rich then worry about what might happen in the future.
You’re just so dumb it’s insane, Denmark doesn’t even want to cancel its contract for F-35s after trump made comments about Greenland. All of Europe needs to band together just to help Ukraine out financially more than the US alone. China tried to find other countries to trade with to fill the gap when our tariffs hit and they couldn’t make up the gap the US consumer left behind from any group of countries they tried to contact.
You really think that *everyone* is so “virtuous” they would stop themselves from becoming rich on trade to the US bc orange man bad? Even long after trump is out of office? What are you 12?
Virtue is a soft power. You can’t ignore it, but they have other motives too, like, for one, not losing billions of dollars on deals Trump welshes on half way through.
You keep pretending that it's virtues and that most business ventures don't like uncertainty in their partners. The most important thing to a business relationship is trust, and it will take actual reform (that I frankly don't think our country will last long enough to make) to Even start to rebuild. It's not the 1940s, we just aren't in that kind of position you imagine we're still in anymore.
Well the emotional doomer that looks forward to the end of his own nation is definitely of sound mind and totally not clouded by nihilism to see how the world actually works. Touch grass, stop being so emotional and read a book
You're the only one in the conversation using emotion, I am just following the logical path. Because zealotry is significantly more emotional than doubting that the country will survive the path it took. You are just making an ass of yourself because you can't take that america is in decline with every major trump decision making estimates of survival shrink. Unlike you, I don't really have any positive emotional investment, just hoping to get out before it's too late.
The maga americans will trade off the strength of a country they could never have built, thinking they can’t deminish it, as if it made itself. An invisible hand, a divine blessing
He is so sure they will be compelled to keep coming but there’ll be less and less to compel them to, because they can’t replace it.
Male supremacist nationalist right out of Plano maybe. His grandkids will work in a Nike factory making expensive sneakers for Chinese scientists.
I’m feel sorry for this guy, but he’s still viciously wrong and maga us making all of us pay
> They are already signing new agreements with the US cut out.
I mean Europe already bent the knee and hell just the other week Germany announced another massive round of buying USA military equipment instead of the EU option.
Honestly I knew the USA had most of the advantages in any negotiations but to see the EU just cave was shocking.
"cracks". EU is slow but they are now all realizing step by step that US is going full fascist. There is no opposition left, democrats are willingly agreeing to Trumps craziness. It´s all about nationalism and greed.
The same reason they always bet on free help: they were too busy not spending on military while enriching their own rent seeking elites. If Europe had to keep track of what kind of military infrastructure they had to build and maintain to try to defend themselves, they’d lose it. Depending on the predatory weapons dealers in the US to only drain the US is very short sighted.
The **only** way this turns around is if the democrats win then next election and jail/execute every single person involved in this administration, and take wealth/businesses away from the billionaires that fully backed the republicans.
Unfortunately that will never happen.
It will be a farce. The voting systems based in Starlink will all be changed to (null) so votes for democratic candidates don’t go through.
There will be protests, ICE will shoot people, and nothing will happen. Democratic Parry losers will try to reach across the isle.
At least we’re almost all on paper ballots now. I never understood why any states ever opted for direct electronic resording, but after 2016 the panic finally moved them to switch back to paper. There are now onky five states left tgat arent. Bad, but so much better than 10 years ago
Most countries across the world have already woken up to this fact and are making deals outside of American influence, especially in Asia and Africa. Why Europe seems to be slower on the uptake is beyond me.
Because our corporate overlords sold everything and outsourced everything, took theirs bonis and pissed off into retirement. And our ruling class has no spine or is bought by russia or can't decide what low effort topic they want to discuss or which gender a water fountain has. No I am not a conservative but we need unity and yes I am angry about all those old Management farts who sold us out.
>why Europeans (or anyone else for that matter) would trust the U.S. after this fucking shitshow.
Even before.
Europeans are shitheads to not have own nuclear warheads with their own crypto keys. Like real ones, not just the french submarine all-or-nothing ones. Trusting the french is the same as trusting the US — it works today's, but will it for under any foreseeable condition?
No. Hence every major nation needs their own nukes. Especially scalable ones from tiny tiny to big big boom. The US ones can do that via software timings, even hardware category ones would be okay for Europoors. But you need your own keys, no European voting bullshit. You need credibility to be able to launch especially if there is no consensus.
Europa has become nuclear-dogma lazy. There are only a few stable configurations in this game theory. Not every "oh that sounds like a happy time plan" works under all considerations of game theory.
> NATO is already done until trump is gone. Does anyone truly beleive that trump would come to Europe's aid if Russia attacked?
As a Canadian, I highly doubt Europe would come to our aid if we were invaded.
As a brit we shoukd have no choice. The number of Canadians that signed up to come and bail us out in ww1 and ww2...I'd be utterly disgusted if we didn't help.
We owe Canada and its a debt that I've seen in grave yards all over Europe.
Sorry for the rant.
It's not just him. He is the symptom, the showing wound on a already dying corpse. He is in power because a large portion of the US voting public chose him. And the non voting public chose him as well. And the entire US public is supporting him by following his orders, continuing to work in the public service jobs and not demonstrating and protesting until he is removed and jailed (not my personal more permanent option). If he is removed a similar dictator style popular figure will still win.
US as a country should be written out of every alliance and trade agreement and countries should band together in their own alliances and deals.
No intelligence should be shared with them as it can be guessed it's immediately compromised.
As I am Aussie this is a strange feeling to have for what was long considered an mainstay ally. We should boot them from pine gap and cease all docking rights to any US warships and cease combined training.
I spent 20 years in the Australian military and often worked with them found them amusing and good to work with but it's not worth keeping this alliance anymore. We should focus on local alliances and closer eu ties and a canzuk type alliance as well.
As for anyone saying you just hate Americans, my missus is American she's great, just US as a country touting itself as a world police force and demonstration of democracy its a failure. (Capitalism doesn't equal democracy)
Trump was elected by a minority. Not even close to a majority. He wont the vote of only the people that went out and voted. This was only about 30% of the US population
That's irrelevant. The fact that he was even allowed to run again is a damning indictment of how rotten the US is.
It's a sick country that has the president it deserves.
That's a relevant point if you're living in the US, knowing that a large portion of your neighbours doesn't support authoritarianism. That's a good thing, don't get me wrong, even if another third of the populace didn't care enough about it to vote.
But right now, it doesn't matter for those of us outside of the US, because majority or not, he and his ever more radical movement hold all branches of government. I'm sure many people in the USSR didn't support the system, but that didn't help the people of Prague or Budapest when Soviet tanks crushed their protests.
Almost every single US president has been elected with about 30% of the vote. Biden got the same, Obama same, Bush same, Clinton same. If you are saying that the President is illegitimate because he had less than 50% of the total voting population's vote, every single President is illegitimate, hell almost every single democratically elected world leader would be illegitimate.
Americans were playing the long game. Integrating Europe into NATO has turned some of the then most powerful militaries into support pets for the United States. Now Europe is so addicted to the NATO framework they're unable to defend themselves without it.
The combined European forces are the second strongest largest in the world an contain multiple nuclear powers. They aren’t reliant on shit.
US is playing a dangerous game because wouldn’t really have any qualms about allying with China of the US continues to be such an unstable actor. at which point they would be the far dominant economic union in the world.
On paper, maybe. Reality is, EU is just some sort of American's colony. We are not officially conquered, and we have like autonomy (rofl), but they do exactly everything was USA has said since ca ww2. When Trump came to Europe, they looked so weak and pathetic, it was sad to watch.
Now let's say that in an unlikely event USA decide to attack EU, while EU bureaucrats (worst class of people) come to some sort of agreement, not to raise armies, but to send a strongly worded letter to their ex ally, USA would be bordering Russia. Problem would be holding onto that territory, but like I said I don't see it happening. USA will just continue controlling EU, why would they want to change that.
Now that is some fantasy. The world is laughing at America and Trump for how retarded they are and how he has taken the strongest economic federation on earth and done nothing but made it weaker and weaker to the point he might entirely destroy the concept of US as the worlds leading power.
US o marginally a stronger economic power than the EU and even then a lot of that is from the creative accounting and they are in debt up to the gills. The US needs strong trading partners to maintain their global position and they currently alienating the strongest consumer market on earth.
Of course they are, they are laughing at them, by doing everything they say. I mean everything. Like, not quid pro quo, or that they ask even for a portion of something, no, they jump like court servants jumping around their master, just nodding, yes master, splendid master, genius master. But continue living in your delusion. USA isn't alienating anyone, nobody will touch their trade deals and they will continue doing wtf they want like they are doing since ww2. Before they were more subtle about it, but now they are openly telling you.
The EU has long been exploiting the US for military protection and letting them play world police and spend their money in various conflicts around tje world. That world order has benefited Europe immensely and they will continue to do it until it no longer serves a purpose.
The fact that you think that’s “doing whatever the US” wants is kind of funny.
1. That was USA's idea. And we see now why.
2. Tell me one thing, that isn't strongly worded letter, where EU has not done what USA wanted? I mean dude.
Ever since UK and France wanted to take Suez channel, and USA tapped them on their shoulder and told them to gtfo, EU is American colony. You are not using someone, if that someone always gets what they want from you. No negotiations, USA comes and tells eu what do, and they do it. For theater some members like rebel, but that doesn't change anything.
“You”
Don’t you mean us? Little man? Or are you a patriot boy in disguise?
I’ll dumb it down for you. This world order has benefited Europe immensely so yes they will continue to let US have things as long as they foot the bill. It’s called smart politics. When the US becomes to unstable or to difficult (we are approaching that) Europe will pivot as they always have and ally with China and Brics and the US will lose their position.
It’s so hilarious that people can’t see how obvious that is.
I'm not American, if that's what you are implying, and I'm an anarchist, I don't give a shit about any movement left, right, middle.
Did world order benefit USA? Are you daft? Is Europe benefiting more in their relationship with USA, or is USA? You do understand that pretty much until aftermath of ww2 European countries were main forces in the world. Do you understand that? Do you understand that Europe still tried to do that after ww2, but were stopped by USA?
You are talking like you don't know shit about European countries. Dude, side with China? GB conquered China with 3 fucking ships, just take a history for last 500 years, you don't need to go farther, and tell me to whom have European forces kissed up? They were the fucking force, other nations bowed before them.
Now in the last 50 years, these same once forces were sucking USA's dick, and your conclusion is that Europe was always like that, even though history showed us clearly it is not. Great fucking conclusion, genius. I hope no one listens to your predictions.
>When Trump came to Europe, they looked so weak and pathetic, it was sad to watch.
To be fair, it's really tough to deal with a senile narcissist who would gleefully fuck over his own country *royally* just to spite yours if you don't jack off his ego appropriately.
There's a saying here in the US: Republicans (the party that supports Trump) would gladly eat shit if you had to smell it on their breath. It makes them super easy to manipulate but very difficult to openly push against.
>The combined European forces are the second strongest largest in the world an contain multiple nuclear powers. They aren’t reliant on shit.
This is the most fantasy land bullshit I've seen on reddit for some time. Absolute garbage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
The top six countries,
Germany,
United Kingdom,
France,
Poland,
Italy,
Spain
spend in total ~$330B which exceeds that of China and Russia.
EU military spending (even before the planned increases are 1,5 higher than Chinas and 3x higher than Russias - a country currently in a full scale conflict.
So fantasy bullshit my ass.
Europe is a fraction of what it could truly be. Dozens of different armies instead of a combined one, low defense spending, extreme reliance on US tech and weapons, etc. If we really wanted to we could become a superpower that could rival the US but we've softened over time
They don’t spend a ton because they have nukes lol. And we thought we had strong allies, but for all the bluster in the world and how strong the US military is the chances of an armed conflict with Europe is zero. Nobody is that stupid. Because the US can’t fight Nukes.
The issue isn't the extreme scenario but the middle one. I don't know where this idea of nuking being used right away in war comes from but that's only a last resource measure. A US intervention in Greenland or what's happening in Ukraine don't warrant the use of Nukes but the use of conventional forces - which we lack. For Russia to be nuked they'd need to be close to taking Germany/France/Italy/UK, they could ravage the east however
The gap between militaries started manifesting after the dollar became a reserve currency (initially pegged to the gold and all of europes gold was stored in US, then Nixon decoupled dollar from gold).
Essentially, when any other country like Turkey spends insane amout of money on military, then prints more money to inflate away their debt, the purchasing power of turkish citizens using the lira goes down, so they can buy less bread with the same lira.
When US spends a lot of money on military, then prints money to inflate the debt away, all of the globe is paying for it. The world is subsidizing the US spending.
This is why Europe can not hope to have the same military might. Admittedly, they can protect themselves if they take a bit more active role tho.
Remember who came before trump first time...? There may well be another Obama next time. Anyone that thinks things will only go one way are simply ignorant of history
It doesn't matter at all. That's not how trust works. You need decades of stable relationship to build trust but it can be broken within a month. Then it doesn't go back to normal in another month or a year.
Trust building and breaking are not symmetric. 5 consecutive Obama-like administration won't reset this completely.
It does matter. The democratic cycle means we will move on and new realities will emerge. In years to come ukriane will go back to being somewhere occasionally discussed for cyber crime and well buying Russian oil and Sudan won't be in the news and we'll be focussed on the next thing.
America got over France vetoing what it wanted to do in iraq
The new realities will never forget what happened. Even if people don't talk about Ukraine in the context of the war, every decision made by Ukraine and Russia and even Europe will consider the Ukrainian war.
EU/NATO members will never depend on Russian oil like it did every again for a century at least.
>America got over France vetoing what it wanted to do in iraq
What? It didn't. Americans lie about the reason to go to the Iraq war were exposed gradually and France was vindicated. But France and NATO still know what US is capable of and have never let it go. It's discussed constantly.
Saying this will blow over in the next 2-3 US presidencies is the stupidest thing ever. Trust towards America will be broken for many countries wronged for decades to come.
Strong allies are not made in 4 years. But it can be broken overnight. This has nothing to do with democracy. There's no guarantee that Americans won't elect another Trump because they have shown they are capable of it.
Your analysis seems to be based more on wishful thinking than reality.
Why are the European militaries in a situation where the Russian military is powerful enough to take Poland off them?
I’m not sure they really are, I think Western Europe would win.
>I’m not sure they really are, I think Western Europe would win.
Win what? What does winning look like?
As a counter factual...i don't think a war with Europe would look like the war with Ukraine. Russia would have to fight with its advantage. It would be tactical nuclear strikes all over. Iirc no one in Europe has tactical nuclear weapons.
>. Iirc no one in Europe has tactical nuclear weapons.
Bro casually ignoring UK and france, 4th and 5th strongest nuclear powers in the world after usa, russia and china.
Tactical nuclear weapon are small nuclear ammunition to use on a battlefield, which is not used by Europe. They're not talking about big ICBM in silos or submarines.
Ah yes, Trump does what Putin tells him to, such as...
*flips pages*
Kidnapping the leader of a Russian-supported country and taking over said country!
...
Wait...
Hard to know if you're being serious...or joking.
Tomahawks missiles?
Remember them? Nah...probably not. Putin asked trump not to provide them...he didn't
>NATO is already done until trump is gone.
Usa has been heading this way for decades....its not coming back. The world needs to accept and arm accordingly.
That means its already done. You cant have an alliance that you can only trust for 4 years.
This is not a trump only problem. The next republican administration after trump wont be better, just less chaotic. Trump is just setting the stage for what will come in the future.
NATO is done.
Your yapping means nothing when monetary incentives are involved, no one in their right mind will stop all trade with the single largest consumer block on the planet.
How you feel and your emotions around a country don’t matter that’s just childish stupidity.
We are literally the largest single country to fun Ukrainian resistance, maybe since you losers are actually in Europe, maybe you should help our Ukraine more?
We in the US don’t think any of you lot would actually help us even a fraction as much as we would to you.
Any of you stuck up relics need a third saving if ww3 breaks out?
How about you France? Gonna have your whole country captured by the enemy again?
Lmfao
You must be failing in school if you didn’t understand the sentence “the USA is the largest **single** country…”
Having all of EU band together just to fund Ukraine a little more then the USA when Ukraine is your neighbor not ours is pathetic
>We are literally the largest single country to fund Ukrainian resistance, maybe since you losers are actually in Europe, maybe you should help out Ukraine more?
Or you MAGA could just stop sucking Putin's dick along with all the oil and natural gas in the Donbas. Because that's why you guys were in Ukraine in the first place, helping to start all this shitshow
I’m sorry did you say that America started the war between Russia and Ukraine? Let’s does that mean Biden was the reason why the war started because he was the president when war broke out not Trump.
I said: "helping to start all this shitshow"\
\
I said MAGA just for the part of licking Putin's balls. Because the rest is not about Biden, Trump or whatever is in charge, it is about the US government in general. Everyplace that has anything related to oil, there's at least one US company wanting something from it, and the Donbas being under russian influence won't help it. ExxonMobil and Chevron projects in Ukraine (along with europeans Shell and BP) were put in halt after 2014, Skifska near Crimea, Yuzovske near Donetsk and Oleske near Lviv. Sum this with the fact thst europeans in NATO and nothing are just the same, the US has always the final voice.\
So, just like Venezuela and Iraq, this is not about democracy and the people, it is about economics and resources exploitation.
EXACTLY, it's so fucking weird watching people only just beginning to understand this. Killing NATO is indeed a FEATURE to an isolationist fascist government. Which everyone was fully aware of going into this, but no "he said he's the peace president"! Idiots all around.
Until trump is gone?
Lol no it he dies today it's not coming back. That trust is gone and buried. Eu is well underway making it's own plans and systems without the us. If trump does today none of that stops.
Nato is gone and sure some version will return but it won't be with usa.
I doubt they would openly attack Greenland. They would rather synchronize with a russian attack on the blatic states and seize Greenland under the pretext of having to defend it.
> “Threats, pressure and talk of annexation have no place between friends,”
Really, it is infuriating to still see even Greenland's PM use the world "friend" to design usains. They are pushing europhobic parties across the continent. They set dismantling the EU as a security strategy. They are litteraly planning to annex part of a EU member state.
They are by no means "friends". They are basically russian.
Even if US takes Greenland, I would advice nato to just impose sanctions and refrain from during anything extreme like military action. Nato cannot afford to lose the US at a time like this, or worse make the US an enemy with Russia also breathing down their necks. Europe will need years to build their military if they want to one day cut military ties with the US.
Tell me if threatening to take over Canada and Greenland is strengthening the Western alliance or weakening it. Antagonising your allies does the opposite of making an alliance stronger
Sure Trump is weakening the alliance but your solution to that is the sever it completely. Whether you like it or not, US is the greatest ally to have to counter Russia amd China. It is best for nato to try their best to keep the relationship going no matter how inconvenient. US is the lesser evil compared to Russia and China
> They would rather synchronize with a russian attack on the blatic states and seize Greenland under the pretext of having to defend it.
That could have made sense except for the part that Russia is in no capacity to invade the Baltics.
They are going to ally with Finland, Poland, Sweden etc. that’s a confined 2 million troops and that’s without the support of europes biggest military powers.
UK/Franxe alone would wax Russia in a fight.
I mean first Russia has to finish with Ukraine which is... Yeah, lol
Then, however, the issue arises
That if they want to do all of that, they are going to face the ire of Maga that are quickly turning the USA into their personal one sided domain, and it's the question of "are they ready to face the tariff war?"
Because I'd say if Russia is still standing after the Ukraine war, and if USA wants Greenland, and both China and India are doing their own thing that don't exactly align 1:1 with EU, then they're going to be torn apart by nationalistic infighting it seems
Like sure, USA is also very divided, probably one of the most divided nations at this point, but the single big military is a huge bonus
Likewise in Russia. Sure there's a lot of tension between nations, but inside the strict army system that is not as pronounced as long as generals listen to Putin (hello, Prigozhin's plane)
Russia has barely made any progress in over two years of fighting. They specially picked Ukraine because it was the only country left not under the umbrella of either the EU or NATO. It was a weak move and they can’t even do that.
“If the US wants Greenland”
I’m sure the US wants a lot of things, but they aren’t retarded. They didn’t invade Venezuela and they aren’t invading Greenland.
Nonsense, it was seen as ridden with corruption and russian sympathisers/traitors. It also shares a *massive* border with Russia and its puppet state Belarus.
Hey im not sure if you know this or not, but the Baltics share a long border with Russia and Belarus too. And its near their major population centres too.
Ukraine made great strides with their military after 2014, they knew they had to shape up because they expected Russia to do it again.
The Baltics should be prepared for the possibility.
Are you kidding me? Ukraine has built up those cities in the east to be fortresses since 2014. U.S. advisors were sent there many times to train their forces. Ukrainian soldiers have been fighting the separatists backed by Russia well before the invasion. Let’s be real here
> Ukrainian soldiers have been fighting the separatists backed by Russia well before the invasion.
One of the reasons for the Russian invasion in 2022 was that the separatists were on their way to lose the war with Ukraine.
I am not kidding. Ukraine was picked specifically because they had no friends and were and an (assumed) easy target. Attacking the Baltic states would be like attacking France directly. It isn’t happening.
I mean their industrial base, population, military equipment, personnel and training were all much higher pre invasion than the Baltics are now. Ukraine is absolutely a tougher opponent than the Baltics. And now Russia has a large army, a war time economy and much more experience fighting. That kind of experience is institutional. Russia pre invasion was better equipped but performed much worse than they are now.
Again this is just ignorant doom jerking. No the Baltic’s absolutely are not an easier target than Ukraine because Russia wouldn’t be invading the Baltic’s, they would be invading tbe EU. A region of 700 million people with a GDP roughly 10x Russias and a military spending 3-4x.
The EU would crush Putin like the thug he is and be knows it. Which is why he picked Ukraine and not the Baltics to begin with.
Are you seriously trying to argue Putin knowing he needed an easy win to keep the homefront happy went with the tougher target? Or is it much more likely for anyone with two functioning brain cells that he picked exactly Ukraine because it’s the only country in the region where he isn’t taking on the EU.
Like think man. It’s not illegal.
I think Putin is captured by ideology. He absolutely thought Ukraine would be an easy target, but if the Baltics were not in Nato it would have been them picked first. And yes realmwars have logistics, supply lines, delays in actions. Russia is at its strongest in practical military terms right after a Ukraine ceasefire. Its war economy is fully deployed, suffering issues sure, but otherwise producing much more than Europe is right now. The short term advantage goes to the Russians, the medium and long term advantage goes to Europe obviously.
Yeah that's why I lold.
I can see how it's going with a non aligned country, I don't think it's going that way too good
However, if they do manage, we have to think ten years ahead. In 2004 it was unthinkable for me that Ukraine and Russia would be at bad terms, in 2014 Crimea felt surreal but I saw where it was coming from, 2024 was horrible but once again, I saw what has been happening
Countries don't operate in months. They have to be prepared to what's coming in 2034 and 2044 too.
Well, not really true. The Baltics have nato going for them sure - but it depends entirely on fast mobilisation and fast action to prevent them being overrun.
If Russia gets a ceasefire with Ukraine then it suddenly has two massive advantages: First is that they have a glut of experienced troops without a need to be on the Ukraine front-line. Second they have an economy on a war footing and in need of continued military spending to prevent a collapse or economic catastrophe.
Compared to Ukraine the Baltics also have several key disadvantages. First they have very little strategic depth for retreat after an initial invasion push. Second they have tiny military forces on the ground compared to Ukraine before the invasion. Third they have a very small population, around 6 million people vs Ukraines 44 million before the invasion. Third, they have internal divisions which means the immediate response to an invasion is going to be fractured unless they are prepared in advance for the possibility.
Basically in a Baltic invasion, they would have to rely solely on Nato forces for defence. Which would be fine so long as nato can respond quickly enough or preemptively stock up on them inside the Baltics borders.
I can see Russia being able to pivot from a Ukraine ceasefire into an immediate Baltic invasion. I think they can take them before nato can organise an effective relief effort. But long term nato can absolutely take the Baltics back even without the US. This is all assuming nobody goes for nukes.
If nato countries are distracted by the US, and if the US refuses to participate or only send a token contribution, then I can see many nato nations hesitating in their response. Maybe Germany, Sweden, Finland, Poland and the UK are the quickest to respond with large forces.
Our baltic defence plan revolves around being such a huge pain it is not worth invading us and if we are invaded we stubbornly hold out with mostly gorilla warfare trough the forests till the rest of NATO arrives. Our biggest asset will be the baltic sea along with finland, sweden and denmark. Also poland because they are just waiting for a reason.
So yeah, im not wrong then? Guerrilla forces holding out in forests is not successfully turning back an invasion. By that point Russia would have occupied the Baltics and would have to be pushed back out of them by nato forces. Which is exactly what I said would need to happen.
If I'm not mistaken NATO military plans changed from "Baltics will fall, we will retake them" to "fighting it out in the Baltics". With Sweden and Finland in NATO it's not that desperate as before. The Russian Baltic fleet would be neutralized, Air Superiority wouldn't exist, and so it would be a ground slog through rough country (lakes and forests) much harder than the Ukrainian plains.
The local military only has to hold on for a few days until reinforcements come in huge numbers.
Also the main population centers are not close to the border. Lithuania's mostly yes, but Riga and Tallinn are both in the west, next to the Baltic sea.
Depends on how deep the Usains are planning to backstab us. If they relieve the sanctions on Russia and, on contrary put sanctions on countries that would use usain weapons to defend themselves, pretending that's escalating, I wouln't be so sure.
And that's without mentionning the rise of pro-russian parties throughout Europe that the US have openly admited to want to be in charge. E.g, there is a high risk that the next French president would be Bardella.
Step 1: promote anti-EU far-right in Europe
Step 2: dismantle EU by far-right
Step 3: make nationalist from different European countries enemies to each other
Step 4: push Russia to start war
Step 5: "save" Europe and share it Russia
Repeat every about 100 years
I'd just like to point out that it's not just Russian influence here. The Saudis have been paying our prez for nearly half a century, and China threw billions at his memecoin. Epstein was with mossad, by all accounts, and it's looking more and more like Jeff was not the ringleader on the kiddy rape front.
Not saying there *isn't* kompromat, there most assuredly is.
Just saying there's more hands up that ass pulling strings than just the Russians.
The U.S. doesn’t need to “attack.” It’s a frozen wasteland with a population of a medium sized town that already hosts as much of a military presence as the U.S. desires.
Trump throwing away generations of hegenemy and prosperity over nothing. Greenland is part of Denmark a major US ally, we already have military base there. It’s already a free capitalist market you can already buy the minerals if you have the capital.
no offence to Denmark but like what point are they actually trying to make, what does that mean in practical terms, sure no more article 5, but like will Denmark stop buying F-35s, will there be no more US military bases in Denmark and the rest of Europe?
because the administration they are talking to has made it clear time and time again that NATO is not some sacred thing to them, so its like "if you do this thing, the other thing that you don't really care about and that some of you actually think is a bad thing will no longer exists..."
NATO is based on trust, reliability and values. US has become neither trustworthy nor do we share their values.
UK and France already step up in Ukraine since US´s security guarantees are not woth more then Russias´s peace agreements.
It’s high time to dissolve it anyway and replace it with a purely European construct. The biggest threat to Europe isn’t in Moscow, it’s in Washington.
True. Biggest mistake was assuming America would always be the good guys. And that nukes would keep us at peace forever. We've hit a point now where it seems we're sure enough no one will use them we can attack anyway.
Well, devil's advocate but nukes do keep the peace. Ukraine got attacked by Russia because they disarmed. The countries getting pushed around are the countries that don't have nukes. I think the world is seeing the trend.
I disagree with part of what you said. This will turbocharge nuclear proliferation around the world, it's the only way if remaining truly safe in this new world order. Russia, America and China have obviously decided to carve the world up between them and Europe needs to join the party as a 4th member otherwise it's going to be eroded away from within and without.
Pakistan has already pledged its nuclear arsenal behind the Saudis to ward off any potential threats, I can see this kind of bilateral agreement snowballing from here on out.
There's no need to dissolve it. It always was just a legal framework with which to request aid from Canada or USA.
The EU already has a better defence pact in place for its member states. What it needs to do is rather than run everything out of NATO, move EU military command into an EU defence force that NATO forces (and others like Australia, Japan etc) could participate in.
The Americans have the world's largest Empire as it stands and they are looking to expand to become truly independent and isolated..not sure why you'd think otherwise.
Trump makes a lot of threats, but outright bombing or invading the European continent is not something I've heard him say so far. The Russians have. So I'd say the Russians are a far more immediate danger.
Are you really that ignorant/dumb or is this an act? When is the last time you checked where most US soldiers outside the US are stationed? Where the US military has most of it's bases outside of the US? It's in Europe.
As such the US does not need to bomb or invade Europe, it already successfully did that, but unlike the Russians **the Americans never went back home**.
Europe is really the biggest threat to itself, the only reason you guys have no security against the US and Russia is because you have so much infighting that you haven't managed to form your own unified empire. And if left to your own devices you'd probably be at war again in half a century or less. Too many people who hate each other in too small of a space, with no unified vision.
We don't need an empire. The inhouse fights are about unimportant stuff. "Too many people who hate each other in too small of a space" could also be said about every single US state or even city.
Why are you trying to fool others? The only reason the US is not trying to build an empire is because the US has been [the reigning empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Liberty) for the last ~30 years.
Btw the gall on some people to pull statements out of context [like this](https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/from-lisbon-to-vladivostok-putin-envisions-a-russia-eu-free-trade-zone-a-731109.html);
> "from Vladivostok to Lisbon"
To invent militaristic imperial ambitions out of calls for economic cooperation, is just insanely dishonest.
Particularly considering how back in 2014 that's exactly [what most Ukrainians supported for Ukraine](https://www.kiis.com.ua/?cat=reports&id=236&lang=eng); Membership in the EU *and* in [the Customs Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customs_Union_of_the_Eurasian_Economic_Union) *at the same time*.
If in 2014 most Ukrainians got what they wanted they would have gotten a free trade and movement zone ranging from Vladivostok to Lisbon, with Ukraine as the connection between the EU and the Customs Union, just like Putin already floated the idea for in 2010.
But they couldn't get what they wanted because the EU association agreement Ukraine had on the table back then did not allow for Ukraine to be part of both trading blocks, it explicitly demanded Ukraine decouple from its trade with Russia to get more in line with EU standards for products/trade.
That's why Yanukovych did not sign the association agreement, he wanted/needed one accounting for Ukrainian ambitions to also be part of the Customs Union at the same time.
I have a hard time imagine European countries coming to the definition of each other if Russia invades. I expect a lot of words and sanctions but no military action to action defend. Maybe France or UK but thats it. Europe’s entire military is incapable of defending itself without America
Europeans hate each other more than they hate anyone else lol there is 0 chance they do any sort of defending of one another. Until America stuck around after WWII, the continent was almost always embroiled in domestic in-fighting between European powers. Idk what kind of fantasy land they live in, but I wish them luck
Then NATO has never existed because article 5 was always completely voluntary.
Even back in 2001 when the US called on the whole of NATO to occupy Afghanistan in "self-defense" so it could go on to invade Iraq.
Back then all the other NATO members, and partners, could simply have gone *"No, that's not what NATO was created for, it's for self-defense not occupation of foreign lands based on some flimsy pretext"* and denied their participation in Afghanistan.
Which imho would have been the sensible thing to do, the thing most in line and spirit with the actual Washington Charter, which was created as a deterence against the Warsaw Pact and similar scale nation state actors, not random insurgent groups living in caves in Asia.
And then China backed Russia would steam roll the European continent bc they'd only have to face the 50-75,000 bodies Europe could scrounge up to fight
> no offence to Denmark but like what point are they actually trying to make, what does that mean in practical terms,
[This will be gone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_Air_Base)
But at least the soldiers there don't need to worry where food comes from when US budget is frozen next time around - [and don't get told to go the food banks](https://www.dw.com/en/us-troops-given-german-food-bank-advice-amid-shutdown/a-74633962)
We Europeans should build the biggest military base in the world on Greenland. Not to threaten anyone, but to protect people. The people living there are Europeans, and they deserve the same security and commitment as anyone else.
Borders only matter if we are willing to defend them. Distance must not mean neglect. Greenland and its people are not a bargaining chip, and Europe should make that unmistakably clear.
Being European means taking responsibility, especially for those at the edges.
What a weird fantasy this is. Not only would this be a monumental waste of resources for a very small population but you would be wasting money that would probably be better spent defending Ukraine.
It would be nice if Europe would. But they barely can muster enough $$$ to bolster their own support for defense in continental Europe. Let alone a territory across the ocean.
The amount of American GWOT fingerbangers in UA is remarkable, big shout out to Columbians 🇨🇴 and Georgians 🇬🇪 for also banging it out.
Any and all Europeans are obviously as appreciated, but are (were) statistically less than 1/5th of Legion fighters.
> We Europeans should build the biggest military base in the world on Greenland.
We should just drop the US$. That would basically be the end of US imperialism because they can't pay for shit anymore.
Canada, Mexico, Denmark, and the rest of NATO (excluding the US for obvious reasons) need to have a secret defense meeting at this point.
If the underwater empires of Atlantis and Pacificus exist and also want to join in, I don't think we'll mind.
We could all just agree to replace nato with wmds. Each country agrees to help the others to develop them and also agrees not to sanction countries with wmds.
The US, China, India, and Russia would flatten all of those countries in that case. Probably the only thing that would unite the 4 lmao those 4 militaries vastly out number the entire rest of the world combined, so it wouldn't be much of a fight.
Those side channels are already in place, Canada and the EU signed a defence and security agreement last year just for an event like NATO collapsing. And commonwealth nations are already [sharing less intelligence](https://www.cnn.com/2025/11/11/politics/uk-suspends-caribbean-intelligence-sharing-us) through five eyes because of the erratic behaviour of the US.
[https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international\_relations-relations\_internationales/eu-ue/security-defence-securite-defense.aspx?lang=eng](https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/eu-ue/security-defence-securite-defense.aspx?lang=eng)
I sure hope that they already have. Because I mean, if they haven't, that's just incompetent. The US has been showing it's treachery for a long time now. If our governments haven't long since made arrangements for if the US attacks one of us, then our defense agencies have collectively all failed us.
The end of NATO would bring about the end of the American empire.
No country would seek US protection.
Unravelling an empire, and being Pax-Americana, conceding the power and wealth that provides, the US would not be the US as we know it.
Man-o-manatee that would be very scary to see. If NATO all united against American and sent troops to Greenland America would most certainly loose, but I doubt how many beyond maybe the other Nordic countries would actually help. Just too economically and security-wise risky. Even with my home country of Canada I only see a 50/50 chance; if we got involved we would be fending off nearby threats but we would also openly become an enemy of America, especially scary considering the fact we primarily border them.
Still one I'd trust more in situations that need immediate actions.
I'd rather not wait for 7 business days to get approval and another 30 business days to get all logistics and plans out.
US should start pulling all F-35 EU contracts back to the States, by the sounds of it. If we are unwanted, no problem. More employment in the US, too. Parts? Yeah, no.
If you want to talk tough, ok.
Remember, Trump will be gone in three years. Our memory lasts as long as yours, though. We will be fine without you if that is what you want, and it sounds like it is.
Can someone please explain to me why this would be the end of NATO?
Why couldn't NATO just eject America and then all the other countries just carry on doing what NATO does?
Because it exists to support America's interests, just like it's fellow former agencies SEATO and CENTO - the old colonial governments were just along for the ride, they don't have the financial capability to fund it or the military capability continue it.
I wonder whether Japan and South Korea could one day join the EU and/or NATO. Both countries would be strong additions, contributing advanced economies, technological innovation, and highly capable, well-trained militaries, while also sharing democratic values and a commitment to global stability.
nah, it will work as designed: 1) US invades Greenland, 2) Denmark invokes NATO protection 3) As a leading NATO member the US steps in and takes military control of Greenland 4) Profit
I appreciate NATO but I still think it’s one of those things you don’t really apreciate until it’s gone or on the cusp of destruction. No wonder Putin hates it so much —it’s an alliance of open societies. There was nothing like it
And the US doing it. It’s just really shocking to me even though i know Trump is capable of anything. I read a short piece in the Telegraph today by a Greenlander and wanted to cry, kniwing every entreaty will fall on deaf ears. This regime can’t understand , it can’t relate. This regime seem to have an instinct for finding good and destroying it. It just hits you in the gut.
Denmark and EU in general are so irrelevant, that the US is openly considering to annex the part of an EU state and nobody there will oppose them in any meaningful way lmao
Europe needs the US more than Denmark. European unity is meaningless when the question is whether you get to keep a multi-trillion dollar army pointing their gun at someone else instead of you
I agree, the best response for Europe is probably to militarize the shit out of Greenland. It would make the current US excuse for wanting to own it (“we need security”) moot, and it’s also a “silent signal” to the Americans that seizing it won’t be simple and might have complications for American lives, which would be unpopular in the US
The current excuse is already moot. The U.S. already has unlimited military access to Greenland to strengthen their national security.
Denmark with Europe just need to make the consequences for the U.S. taking Greenland worse than the benefits of taking it.
Because it's too late and impossible. Greenland already hosts a huge American base and the Danish entire military doctrine has been to play a specific role in the North Sea to blockade any Russian excursion in the North Sea in the event of an all out war. They simply can not ever hope to defend a land mass the size of Greenland against the Americans and it's really just pointless trying.
The only realistic option they have is acquiring nuclear weapons independently and taking a beligerent role towards the native Greenland era who have been on the verge of true autonomous rule, if not nationhood for a while.
Because if Europe hands over one of theyr own, Nato is over, the EU as a concept will be over. Mutual trust and agreements built over decades would go up in smoke, the betrayed would shatter peoples faith in everyone elses government and theyr own. War is guaranteed. Culturally an irreversible decision. Potentially push many countries into alliances with other nations like china or russia. America would be seen as bad as russia not only to europe but the rest of the world too. I can not even begin to imagine all the geopolitical rammifications of such a decision in 20 years.
Europe "dropping" Denmark would completely shatter Europe on a sociocultural, geopolitical and economic level. Europe will take the economic hit of dumping NATO long, long before they take the even bigger economic hit of doing that.
In the extremely unlikely scenario the US takes Greenland, Europe will saber-rattle even harder, actually go up to the 5% of GDP spending NATO wants while also leaving NATO, kick out US military bases, do a trade war against the US, and start going for even deeper trade ties with China, India and Brazil.
The average European's quality of life will take a significant drop to the level of the average American's. Life will go on.
My personal theory on why Trump appeared to be Putin's doormat when they met in Alaska, is that he doesn't want Russia to side with the EU in case something happens
Especially because that would also bring North Korea and maybe China into the conflict
You don't actually stop your "daddy", as one of the EU cucks-in-chief has put it, from doing something he wants.
1. Your country gets tarrifed so you back out immediately as it was already 2. You personally get sanctioned like that international court judge in the Netherlands 3. "Your" armies don't have any fighting experience or guts to start a fight and get killed (because they *will* get killed, we're talking about the force with the biggest air superiority in the world), this is not some Mali peasants or 14 years old Afghan boy.
323 Comments
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