My plan to become a commercial pilot - what advice do you have?

[-]

Charming_Chipmunk69@reddit

Biggest thing is to stay flexible and actually talk to a couple schools before locking into a rigid timeline. When I was mapping out my own path, getting a legit logbook review and a customized commercial pilot training plan made a huge difference vs just buying some cookie-cutter package. Also, start studying for the written now; showing up with that done saves time, money, and headaches later.

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

Flying once per week will extend you training and expenses. Generally, flying 2-3 times a week is more ideal. In my experience, those who flew once a week did not progress and spent more money, as half or more of the lesson was review. I found 3 times a week ideal, 2 kinda depends on the student.

Before you even consider ATP, read my post on them:

Find my other posts:

College Aviation Programs

Also read my post on Unsecured Flight Training Loans. This may open your eyes on them.

ON ATP FLIGHT SCHOOL

You can find an up to date version of this comment here.

I have compiled a list of posts discussing ATP flight school. I have tried to include both good and bad, but there is a vast majority of "bad." These are all recent posts from the last couple years. There's many more, but I'm not going to go on. You can see current search results for "ATP" here (if this link works)

Please note: I'm not trying to paint ATP as one way or other. I've just compiled posts here. Plenty of people have successfully completed ATP, but plenty didn't either. I have my opinions on the company, but my goal is transparency with what we've seen on this subreddit. ATP's marketing budget is quite large, and this post is attempting to shine light on what they don't say so that you can make the best, informed decision for you.

As you're reading through these, I want you to ask yourself these questions: - is the quality of training up to my standards? - is speed really the best thing? (Please consider the current hiring climate) - is the price worth it for me? - is taking out a loan worth it? - if I take out a loan, can I realistically pay it off? (Refer to the Unsecured Loans for Flight Training post) - what sacrifices must I take to go to ATP? Are they worth it?

My Experience with ATP Flight School. Read This If Considering! (2022). This one is the most in depth, longest write-up that has been posted.

ATP Flight School Write-Up (pros and cons) (2024). Another fair write-up.

Experience with ATP (slight TLDR) (2024)

Another ATP Flight School Writeup (2025)

Why ATP Flight School Might Not Be Your Best Bet: An Alumnus Perspective (2025)

Various Posts

These post tend to skew towards the bad side. Some of these are examples of failing out of the program. Some are representative of the company as a whole.

A Positive ATP Review (2025).

Did anyone have a good experience attending ATP? (2023)

ATP FLIGHT SCHOOL SCAM (2024)

ATP Flight School Lawsuit is Official (2024)

I may have ruined my life at only 24 (an ATP story) (2023)

I literally don't know what to do, ATP strikes again. (2024)

Leaving ATP Need Advice (2023)

ATP is trying to screw me over financially (2024)

It's time for me to jump on the DON'T GO TO ATP train (2023)

ATP FLIGHT SCHOOL (discussing their loans) (2024)

Note that reviews tend to be skewed to either terrible experience, or exceptional experience. This is a known fallacy with reviews, the middle ground tends to be the people who don't write reviews, so you don't hear about it.

We generally recommend you go to a small local flight school and pay as you go, as debt can be devastating.

I've met people where ATP worked out well for them, some/many are members of this subreddit. Again, I really want you to know what you're getting into before you sign the dotted line.

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

Is 4 or 5 times not realistic?

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

It depends on the person. Your brain needs time to build neural pathways. I found flying more than 3 times to be a tad slower in terms of progression from lesson to lesson.

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

I'm just a bozo. I havent done first class medical or student pilot certificate yet. Now, and/or a month or two or three before I dive in head first, what can I do know besides just watching YouTube videos?

I think ground school and just normal procedures is what i should be worried about, and maybe some regulations, and the preflight maybe?

Would most pros argue that a motivated go getter should be studying now?

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

Don't burn yourself out. But there's plenty of free resources, and online ground schools that you can repeat lessons all you want. The FAA has Pilots Handbook or Aeronautical Knowledge, and it's free online in PDF format.

But if you come prepared, that's less your instructor has to teach, and more they can work on correlating and connecting knowledge.

But, you can't dive in if all you're doing is sitting on the diving board. You at least need to dip your toes in.

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

My limited experience with learning shit is if you come prepared you're going to extract more out of every statement your instructor/teach/professor says, and you won't have to ask as many follow up questions

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

College 141 is slower. Fly three times a week, structured classes, flights, and ground lessons. So you're forced to come at least somewhat prepared. Didn't mean kids didn't slack off....

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

"College 141 is slower"

I was pretty damn sure all 4 year flight schools like LeTourneau and Embry Riddle were 141, but I thought there were plenty of non-university 141s... was I wrong?

If 141 in general, college or otherwise, is so much slower than 61, why does a new 141 student have to be better prepared than a 61 student? Obviously I'm a bozo and missing the point, but I would've assumed a slower pace would mean it's easier to learn along the way.

I know a 141 is way more money and probably not for me.

It sounds like if you find the correct competent 61 you can race through as needed. I plan to leave myself the exit to potentially stop at the completion of PPL and/or just stop with PPL+IR or whatever, but I intend to race to the end of PPL at minimum

Thank you

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

I specifically said college 141 is slower, more steady pace. There are other 141s out there not associated with colleges.

141 only means it has an approved syllabus/course from the FAA, which gives some reduced certificate hour requirements. That's it. It doesn't mean it's faster or slower. Some are slower, some are faster.

If you're going to a random school just for fun, 61 is generally better, as it's usually a smaller local school. 141 generally means bigger "pilot mills." Local school has to have good reputation, so they will generally Provide better instruction. Big pilot mills generally have great marketing (ATP Flight School, however they are 61, but are still a "pilot mill"), or they have foreign airline contracts that keeps money rolling (CAE, Aeroguard, Hillsboro Aero Academy, etc). With those schools, a random person off the street is not their priority, and they can piss them off with poor quality instruction, because they can afford to lose customers.

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

●Normal ATP check ride requires 1500 hours cumulative minimum ●Anyone who was ever an aircraft pilot of any kind (or maybe they had to be PIC) for any moment ever as a uniformed service member in the Department of Defense is not fully excepted from the 1500 hour rule but they can take the very same checkride as early as 750 hours cumulative total and be granted an R-ATP until they automatically process an upgrade to the ATP at 1500. I don't know if those 750 hours have to be military hours ●any person who satisfactory completed a 141 program can get the R-ATP checkride at 1000 hours and automatically process an upgrade to the ATP at 1500

Do I got that right? I think that's most of what your insinuation was

I'm a veteran and as soon as I get my PPL i'll start rushing/apply to fixed wing air national guard and air force reserve units for pilot contracts

If I find out I'm medically disqualified from military flying and/or some other drama happens, I may still try to pay my way all the way to being a civilian ATP or CPL cargo pilot or business jet pilot or something, but I kind of doubt it. However, if I want to own my own serious/expensive/specialty aircraft someday, to afford insurance, and just be all around competent and safe PIC of my own personal not-for-hire plane, I can only speculate I probably need enough experience and hours to hit the 250 CPL mininum anyway. 250 isn't a lot. So I'm probably getting CPL/IR at minimum, it's just a question of: 1. Do I get selected to take 2+ years of my life to go get qualified as a military pilot (and 'free' IR, ' and ~200+ hours of 'free' training, potentially 'free' CFI or even CFII, possible 'free' ME and maybe MEI too, etc) and if not, 2. Do I pay my way all the way through CPL/IR civilian training ASAP as fast as possible blowing through money, or maybe even further through CFII, or do I just get the PPL/IR and maybe slow down and just maintain that and fly a few or couple times a month

Either way I'm excited to zoom through PPL!

I apologize for all the details. I want to identify my misconceptions. I don't think I'm doing this for "fun", but I'm also not one of those guys who is like "I want to be flying at a legacy as soon as humanly possible", which seems to be most of the people on reddit. The whole civilian track to airline sounds like a crawl and painful labor of love, and super long and arduous, and expensive/debt-ridden.

Is my plan stupid?

I think some of the most important features of a school, especially a 61 program, is enough planes and instructors and not chronically broken planes. Like I said, tw is a bonus but somewhat rare it sounds like

Thank you so much

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

I'm not sure if ever hour of the 750 has to be military pilot time. If have to read the reg again.

To get an RATP at 1000 hours, you need to have 60 credits in an approved collegiate aviation program. It can't just be a 141 course at Spartan.

What I was referring to what the main difference between 141 and 61 is the reduced hours needed for each certificate. Fir example, under part 61, you need 50 hours of cross country time, under 141 you do not need that.

I can't tell you too join it not join the guard. That's a personal choice, and one in not familiar with, as I'm not a military pilot.

Since you a a veteran, the most cost effective way for you to get your licenses is to do a collegiate program and have the GI Bill pay for it. It will pay for everything.

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

I find it hard to believe a chapter 33 post-9/11 GI bill will pay for it in it's entirety

I already have a bachelor's degree and I dont really know if I want to fo a full Embry Riddle degree. In fact, I know i don't. I'm good. I also don't have the chapter 33 because I did my time in the reserves

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

It does actually pay for most of not all of it. And ERAU is not the only place, they're just the most expensive and most marketed. Plenty of smaller schools out there. Since you have a 4 year degree, I would have recommended a 2 year degree if you still had some Ch 33 left.

A lot of big schools have 141 and use it as a marketing tool. "Oh, we have an FAA approved course, which means we can charge more, because we have a better product." The school I worked at had both 61 and 141. One wasn't more expensive than the other. Was mostly just for the military guys to get funding, not many chose 141.

Fwiw, I'm not trying to tell you how to do things. Everyone's path is different, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, what's wrong is taking out a 100k loan with 15% APR.... But, if your plan works for you, then by all means, I'm here for it! Just keep in mind, this industry doesn't usually go the way you want, so if your oah changes, or takes longer, that's just part of the journey. Don't get too frustrated with it

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

I have no chapter 33 and have never had any chapter 33 or used any of it. I have less than mininum benefit level. Zilch. You have to perform the correct active duty orders for a certain amount of time to get it. I'm a reservist.

I only have 1606 right now

I think i would prefer to get PPL and maybe see how I still feel while working on the PPL. And then Maybe immediately go into IR and see how I still feel. Etc..

If a school has both 141 and 61 for the same price, why would you not do 141? You get credentials/ratings/endorsements faster... correct?

I am aware it doesn't go the fanciful way kids expect it to. They have some picturesque naive vision of whay it's gonna be. That's why im not anticipating doing any loans unless Warren buffet calls me up and offers 3% apr.

I didnt feel like you were telling me what to do, but please do tell me what to do! Curious to hear your opinion more. I promise I won't call you up in a year "RaiseTheDed! You told me to do x y and z goddammit. You suck! It's your fault I work at McDonald's and do 10 cfi shifts every month and cant pay my rent"

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

I'm not a vet, so my knowledge of GI bill only extends to those who I know. Makes sense though!

So, with 141 there is no room for wiggle room. You have to do lesson 1, then 2, etc. You can't change things up for your students. So, if my student is doing everything well, but there 10 more lessons of landings and air work, I'm not allowed to skip ahead and teach them cross countries. I'm set in the syllabus. Part 61 does not have that restriction, I can skip around the syllabus to work on things I feel my student needs. In a non collegiate program without additional college classes, the structure, in my opinion, just doesn't work too well.

I think your plan sounds good to me. One step at a time

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

I appreciate the feedback.

141 must have some flexibility

Like, you dont HAVE to do all the ratings in a certain order, do you?

But within each rating or endorsement, things are pretty rigid?

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

You do, you can only enroll in instrument when you complete PPL. You can only enroll in CPL when you complete IR. Well, I say that, some schools made a weird thing where they break up the training. So you do PPL, CPL time building, IR, then CPL for real. It's however the course is set up, you just complete.

Within the course, it's as rigid. You can review things, repeat things, incomplete things, but they all must be done. If you incomplete something (eg you ran out of time), you must complete it the next lesson before you can progress.

With that rigidity, you have reduced hours. You can get your CPL with 190 total hours, 120 in the course. Some schools have an even lower total hours requirement for their course as well.

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

Well, time is money.

But it sounds like the 141 doesnt save people money, allegedly, maybe

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

141 can save people money, sometimes. GI bill, tuition remission, scholarships, grants, and federal financial aid. As long as you don't go to Embry Riddle....

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

Federal pell grant is peanuts

GI bill doesnt save you money; its money you have. If you blow it all like nobody's business, then you aren't saving money lol. You can give it to your kid, or invest the money

[-]

Due_Cheek_9840@reddit

As someone who went to epic, it is very hard to pay as you go with the way their school is set up. They require you to make deposits into an account up front and subtract from that as you go. Besides I think their rate for a 172 is ridiculous when you can go part 61 with an instructor that will tailor instruction to you and work with your schedule and timeline for a whole lot less per hour. I currently flight instruct and my students pay $150 an hour for airplane and instructor.

[-]

the_clarinet_squid@reddit

Flight training without debt or someone else paying for it? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahaahhahahahahahahahahahaha

[-]

ltcterry@reddit

Good on you for having saved a good amount so far. You're getting off to a better planned start than most ever will!

to become a student full time student

Don't do that.

at ATP or epic flight academy

Don't do that.

one hour of lessons per week ... until I get my private.

Again, don't do that; twice a week is far better. Save until you have $18-20k cash available to pay for training at this rate. Twice a week will get you better training, probably in slightly less total time.

Imagine you fly one a week for 70 weeks. Took 70 weeks. Switch it up. You save for 35 weeks then fly twice a week for 35 weeks. Same 70 weeks elapsed and you have better training.

There is zero value to "full time" flight training. The job market is tight now; no rush to rear end the burgeoning group ahead of you.

Keep your job. Train on the side a local school rather than a chain/franchise/"pilot mill." You'll be better off for it in so many ways.

Hiring managers have posted here that "ATP resumes to straight in the trash." No sense in going to the place with a bottom five reputation. The one thing they do is "fast." You don't need "fast." You need *good.* You've heard "good, fast, cheap, pick two" or similar words I'm sure. Don't go anywhere that markets "fast path to the airlines." They aren't. They don't even hire airline pilots. They sell pricy flight training. And market "the dream."

Avoid places that crank out lots of cookie cutter pilots. If you look just like everyone else, how can your resume rise to the top and get you hired?

Good luck, stay smart, don't fall for the hype/marketing, places like ATP are really good at that. If they say "airlines" a lot or "pilot shortage" at all run don't walk as fast and as far as you can go.

[-]

Bot_Marvin@reddit

The idea to slow play flight training because the market is slow is a terrible idea. The people best in position to take advantage of hiring waves pressed through when times were bad.

If you started flight training in 2008, your career would have been solid.

If you started flight training in 2020 when everyone was furloughed, your career also would have been great.

The people who get into trouble are those who jump in during a hiring wave, and by the time they have their mins, the wave has come and gone. Stay ready so you don’t have to get ready.

[-]

Most_Incident_7530@reddit

People in debt always make elaborate plans for when they get out of debt - but so many americans spend their entire lives in debt.

Focus on getting out. No one knows how bad and worse or good and better the industry will be a year from now.

I'm just a bozo but it's clearly a very volatile industry.

One this is for sure. Your plan is probably bad either way.

Flying is obviously a labor of love. Law school or med school or something or just a cheap B.S. of some kind is likely a better investment

[-]

Bowzy228@reddit

Flying once a week is a waste of money. If you Go to ATP that 20k will be gone the minute you walk through the door 😂.

[-]

AdventurousSepti@reddit

1) Doing this with no to minimal debt is a very good plan. 2) Flying once a week or as you earn is a very bad plan. Need to fly 2 or better 3 times a week. Each lesson builds on the prior and starts with a review. If last flight was 2 or 3 days ago then review is 10 minutes and in a one hour lesson you get 50 minutes of new material. If last flight was a week or dreaded 2 weeks ago then review might take 30 minutes and you only get 30 minutes of new material. Muscle memory is a big deal in learning to fly.

3) IF you fly 2 or 3 times a week a PPL that has 40 hour minimum will probably take you 65 to 70 hours and cost about $17,000. Flying less will take 100 hours or more and cost could be $40,000. Which do you want? 4) Another alternate choice is Sport Pilot. The rules just recently (Oct 22, 2025) changed so now Sport can fly hundreds of aircraft, at night, complex and high performance aircraft. Sport minimum is 20 hours and most will take 30, again if 2-3 times a week. That will cost $7,000. Many instructors and school do not teach Sport at this time but I expect most to change within the next year or two. Prior to October Sport pilots were limited to aircraft weighing 1,320 lb gross, 120 kts speed, and two seat aircraft. This planes were made lightweight and not to withstand the hard landings of students. In Oct the rules changed. No more weight restriction, no more speed, can fly 4 seat planes (but Sport can only have one passenger). Just about every plane in a pilot school inventory can now be flown by Sport pilots. you may have to look hard for a FBO that teaches Sport, but it is worth the effort to find one.

5) OK, so you get Sport and continue toward PPL. The sport lessons count. And, if you get 150 hours and a special Sport instructor class, then Sport Instructor checkride, you can be an instructor and teach Sport pilots. And, all along, including as instructor, your drivers license is your approved medical. yes, it is still good to get a FAA medical, especially 1st Class, to make sure you won't have issues reaching your goal in the future, but with Sport you can start out simple, teach and make $$. A PPL needs a commercial and 250 hours, and CFI to teach PPL. Sport is a very good way to get started as a pilot and see if aviation is still a career you want before investing tons of $$ and time. Remember, over 70% of those who start PPL training do not get their license. Sport has been around for over 20 years but under the old, restrictive, rules. Their safety record is as good or even better than PPL pilots, despite what many instructors and FBO's say. After all, they'd rather get $17K to $40K from you than $7K. An independent instructor can be the best way to get Sport license.

6) To see what it takes to be a pilot, buy a $300 online ground school. Most newbies only think about the flying part of being a pilot. Then many get tripped up because they can't do the academic part. The flying is relatively easy. The book learning can be difficult for many. It isn't that difficult, but there is a LOT to learn and it takes a huge amount of time and dedication. Here's just a taste of all the things you'll learn on your way to ATP.

https://youtu.be/QgyLEE2TA-I?si=Rkga4F5xfr_m7ANN

[-]

acniv@reddit

If your planning on getting your cpl, at least in the USA, you need to add a - (negative) sign in front of those numbers there chief.

[-]

ATrainDerailReturns@reddit

1) once a week is not enough to get good

Imagine you have a single bad weather day, now its two weeks since your last list lesson

No shot you are building muscle memory or remember much from previous lesson

2) depending on the airport 1.0 might not be much time to help you learn, most of my lessons are 1.4ish

And you will definitely need more than 1 hr lessons for cross country training

3) ATP or Epic are absolutely not necessary why be smart slow and practical about your private simply to still way over pay to speed run IR and commercial

Like you have this smart plan to avoid the loan crap you fear and everyone else warns you about and then you jump right back into that trap for no reason

[-]

anactualspacecadet@reddit

How are you gonna pay for ATP with 20 grand?

[-]

Schwalbe262Guy@reddit

1 hour a week will extend your training significantly, that is not enough time to go through all the flying you need AND start building muscle memory and habits effectively. And that’s assuming you got your PPL right at 40 hours, which is more of a rarity, expect lessons to be 2 hours, as that gives enough time to do so, as well as there is specific criteria you have to meet within those 40 hours to reach minimums. Which those are more than 2 hours depending on what specifically it is.

Fly 3 times a week. If you can’t afford that then you need to save more or wait. Otherwise loan may be the better option, also Aviation appears to be tight right now as well so it’s no rush 👍🏾

[-]

SomeCessnaDriver@reddit

Your plan will see you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with more than a thousand flying hours before your resume starts to become even slightly competitive.

Better plan is to skip ATP/Epic, keep your job, do your training after hours at a Part 61 on a schedule that works for you and your job. When you have your instructor ratings, start teaching at said flight school on nights, lunch breaks, weekends, whenever you can until you land a decent paying job as a pilot. You'll have zero debt and you won't be as exposed to this extremely volatile job market.

For your PPL, I would plan to spend at least 3 * 2hr lessons a week. Your rate of spend will be higher, but you'll end up spending less money in the long term. You cannot feasibly complete your PPL in any reasonable timeframe at 1 hour per week.

[-]

MyPilotInterview@reddit

The beta way to do this is become a Sports Pilot Instructor at 100 hours - start earning money flying, building time while finishing off your rating. You can have your 1,500 at the same time you have your commercial multi engine.

[-]

__joel_t@reddit

Just doing some math here, back of the envelope.

Getting your PPL in a reasonable amount of time generally requires flying an average of 4 hours/week, and it takes on average about 60 hours. Of course, that can be lower (but now lower than 40 at a part 61) or much higher.

If you fly 4 hours/week, it will take you 15 weeks to get to 60 hours. If you can only afford to pay for one flight hour/week out of your income, then you shouldn't start until you have saved up about 45 hours of flight time, at a minimum. There will be other expenses, such as ground instruction, exam fees, equipment (such as a headset), DPE fees, flight hours you have to fly to stay proficient while waiting for a checkride, etc.

[-]

Dbeaves@reddit

If you want to be debt free you dont want to be in flight school.

[-]

KoiwazuraiAi@reddit

I wanted to save 40-60k before even jumping in and just do ground school and self study until I have that buffer.

[-]

southferry_flyer@reddit

You have a very good mindset about it.

However, just know, 1 hour a week is very low to efficiently train for your PPL. Additionally, $20k is low to go from PPL to CPL+.

[-]

AlexJamesFitz@reddit

One thing that jumps out at me: Many of your PPL lessons will be over exactly one hour. Are you accounting for that in your math?

[-]

rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

So starting in 2027, my goal is to have no debt, and to have roughly $10,000 in savings. I want to dip my toes into the flight training with low risk - no debt. I want to be sure I have the right mind for flying before I dig into it financially.

I will pay for one hour of lessons per week out of pocket until I get my private. My hopes is that by 2028, I will have $20,000 saved and my private license; at which point I will quit my job and apply to become a student full time student at ATP or epic flight academy which have schools near my home. I know epic is cheaper than ATP, not sure what differences they have in quality. I’m doing all this so I can start with a significantly smaller loan than if I had just jumped in. I hate the idea of taking such a large risk.

I want to study and pass all my writs before starting as a full time student, since that seems to be the common advice. Is there any other financial or school advice anyone could think of?

Other additional background- I am 25 years old. I am not poor but I do not come from money, everything I do I just do on my own. I have a bachelors in criminal justice and have been working as a banker for 2 years. On my way out of college I created a 5 year plan (which I’ve strayed from a little bit, but am trying to get back into).

Those who have taken out loans to go to flight school mention how crippling the payments are at first. So my goal is to pay down existing debt before taking out a student loan for flight school. I’ve paid off my car, owe less than 8k on private loans for my college and still owe 26k to the federal gov. For the sake of time, I’ve decided not to pay down on the federal loans at this time - but I want to pay off all my private debt by the end of 2026.

Please downvote this comment until it collapses.

Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.