Because all dealers want to add accessories and then charge said accessories to the customer after getting a “discount” on the car. You ask for a car you want and all of a sudden there’s a mark up because it’s a “specialty vehicle”
If you’re looking to buy a leftover 2025 GR Corolla, here’s what I found when I bought mine in August. Pretty much every dealer within 100 miles of me with one that had been on the lot for 2 months or more was willing to sell at or very close to invoice price, which is about $2,500-$3,000 off, depending on the trim level. Many were also willing to eat the cost of any port-installed accessories that came on the car. In my case I was able to get $2,500 off the base MSRP, and the dealer also waived $1,300 in port-installed accessories (circuit edition spoiler, roof rack crossbars, and all weather floor mats) for a total of $3,800 off the window sticker price. No other dealer markups, add-ons or extra warranties. I cross shopped 4 different dealers that were all willing to do similar deals. You might be able to get an even better discount now!
Similar story to the Jeep Gladiator and Cybertruck. Sold for well over MSRP when first released (CT on the used market), but now they can hardly sell them.
Yeah, the initial hype when the 2023’s first arrived was crazy. It felt like a big win to grab a manual 2025 Core (base model) below $38k, especially with all the improvements that the 25’s got across all trim levels (more torque to match the Morizo, LSD’s as standard, improved cooling and tweaked suspension).
I’m on the fence of paying for it as well haha. The site has everything I’m looking for! Is there any other resource you use to find cars, best insurance, financing/loan rates, car trends, etc.?
yea big shocker. the more demand the more they arent willing to budge
basically if you want anything fun your gonna get fucked.
you want something nobody else wants or is mass produced? have at it.
In early 2023 my wife loved the Woodland Rav4 hybrid, and we found one near us that was exactly what she wanted. That dealership had a "call for price" on the site. I obliged and they wanted 48k for it, 12k over msrp. I laughed at them and hung up. They had the audacity to call back 5 mins later and asked if I wanted to pre-order a Carolla Cross hybrid. I hung up immediately.
That experience, although I know it was dealer specific, really turned me off of Toyota.
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Speaking about Toyota, what I've seen is that these are higher trims Toyota pushed out while they were more optimistic. $70k TRD Pros and such. My local dealer can't keep anything cheap on the lot. They had a base GR86 sell before it even hit the lot. Lower spec GR Corolla's sell fast.
Basically anything below $50k sells fast unless it's blatantly undesirable like the current RAV4 (it's being replaced in a few weeks so people prefer to wait).
Unless the margins are just that bad I never understand why manufacturers don't send more of these to dealers.
If a GR86 sells at over MSRP before it hits the lot, why not send 3 of the car instead of 1? If you sell through all of a months GR Corolla inventory in a week, why not increase that inventory supply by 50%?
The demand is there and Toyota just, doesn't have any interest in meeting supply.
Yeah it's weird that they make so few of them.
My GR86 had three people interested in the car before it even hit the dealer lot, heck it was still on the boat when I made a deposit, granted it's a special edition. Still most GR86 sell extremely quickly. Same thing for the Supra. They're always spoken for before the dealer has possession.
You just highlighted a weird issue with Toyota and Lexus… you can’t customize a build. Basically you have to get what’s coming off the boat which is really weird in today’s day and age
In the state where I am (OK), there’s also Gulf States Toyota. GST is a distributor that sits in between Toyota and its dealerships, and they add shit to the car at build time and at port. They added $3,174 worth of stuff to my Land Cruiser, bumping the price comfortably over $70K.
Not sure how true that is. My Highlander is a 1 of 1, custom picked each line item option with the dealer. Admittedly it was through the largest US dealer in the North America - but it is possible.
I only got the opportunity as the dealer had screwed up and damaged the original car we had agreed to buy and couldn’t get it repaired in a satisfactory manner. So they offered me one of their dealer allocated custom builds. Still got good pricing and they even took care of my travel expenses.
Toyota cars don’t really come in a 1 of 1 from the factory - it’s kind of the opposite of what they do. Now if you’re talking about dealer add-ons, sure maybe roof rack can make it a 1 of 1. But from a model, trim and feature perspective they don’t make anything that unique. If you’re buying from the biggest dealer in the country it’s like that the car you wanted was coming in anyway (see point I’m making above). Toyota allows Japan to do custom ordering and just recently started to my knowledge but not in the US
My vehicle was manufactured in the U.S. Not all Toyotas are manufactured in Japan. In fact much of their lineup for U.S. is manufactured/assembled stateside.
Again I still got to choose each feature. At the end of the process I got a Moroney along with how unique my vehicle was when I ordered it. My interior trim and exterior paint are non-standard as well as the roof options. Combine that with some of the port installed options, it was still a 1 of 1 at the time of ordering.
Now is it as custom as you can make a Porsche? No. You can’t quite choose the color of the stitching and logos embossed on the leather in a Toyota. But is it possible to mix and match their part groups across trim lines - yes - which they don’t normally do - most Toyota dealers don’t get but maybe one or two special allotments per year if that. This was the largest dealer a few miles from their CA HQ - they are gonna get a few more than a couple.
Making it even more weird, from what I've read, is that if you lived in Japan you can custom order a car from Toyota.
I guess if the cars sold so well they don't need to, but then they have a situation with too much inventory of the GR Corolla in the US.
You can order custom builds of Toyotas in Europe too, not just Japan. It's asinine.
I would have happily spent $45k on a RAV4 PHEV *if I could get exactly the options I wanted*. Instead, Toyota lost that sale because they force US customers into a narrow set of badly tiered trims that can't be customized and then to add insult to injury their dealers insist on tacking on over a grand in useless dealer-installed "options" like satnav. If I'm spending $50k on a car I better be getting the exact car I want. (That doesn't help the fact that their seats are nearly intolerable because they make the foam too hard to save weight and try to push the luxury seats in the Lexus as more comfortable.)
Well it looks like Toyota is just being mean to the US and forcing us to use the allocation system. What did the US do to Japan anyways?!
Tasteless jokes aside, it really is odd. Yeah with the point you made, once a certain dollar amount is hit, the customer should be able to custom order.
Toyota also really needs to work on their poor dealer experience.
Yeah. I don't know if you can get custom builds in Japan. But the Toyota system in the USDM, dealers get what they're allocated on a regional basis. And there's some ability to request like say, more Corollas from the regional manager. But no specific builds. You get what you get in the manner Toyota wishes to divy them out.
Which isn't dumb, but it's a PITA as a consumer.
> I don't know if you can get custom builds in Japan.
You can. And they have way more options (for the GR86, at least) than what's available in America.
also why "rare" trims hold value
my GR86 is Premium Manual Trans and Neptune blue
maybe 1000 were made in my trim ( i know corvette guy moment)
but they really are that "rare"
Can confirm, I only got my Supra because the person in line ahead of me for the allocation dropped out and the dealer called me asking to finish a deal by the end of the month.
I’m also seeing dealers near me ask $47k for a manual GR86 Yuzu edition. It’s the only GR86 that’s sitting.
> I’m also seeing dealers near me ask $47k for a manual GR86 Yuzu edition. It’s the only GR86 that’s sitting.
WTF!
I got my Trueno for $39k, just a very slight markup. At $47k just get a Nissan Z.
Congrats on the Supra. I bet there were several guys on that list.
Manufacturers benefit from volume, *ceteris paribus*. It's the dealers who resent keeping lower-margin vehicles on the lot. The dealers generally want almost all high trims, and the manufacturers are willing if the dealers say they can sell them.
Toyota demand is particularly being driven by the fact that neither Ford nor GM make sedans in the last few years. A buyer going to buy a sedan is going to end up shopping Japanese or Korean in most cases.
At least for the GR Corolla, it’s only made in one plant (motomachi plant in Japan) that’s hand built by Takumi craftsman (at least 30 yrs experience in Toyota)
They are going to start producing them in their UK factory though
Toyota needs to be humbled. They were never meant to be over $40k. They are just greedy and are banking on reliability from their older discontinued engines.
$48k in November 2019 [is $60,487 today](https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm), in monetary inflation alone. Eventually that's going to happen when you [throw money out of helicopters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_money).
I’m not even sure I believe this list. 4Runner sales finished strong this year and my local dealer which is one of the biggest in the Midwest has 3 total in stock.
I am surprised the 6th gen 4Runner is selling, here we have them sitting on lots along with the new Land Cruiser and you can get a TRD Pro without a waitlist. The GX however still going for above sticker and there is a 2+ year wait on the overtrail + models.
Nah, more because Toyota doesn't let you order and just builds a bunch of slop that nobody wants.
Shopping for a new Tacoma is infuriating. Their business practices are mind boggling. The desirable option combos get bought instantly and only the ugly/lame trucks make it to the lot.
I remember buying a Tundra at a dealership at least 12 years ago. On the sales sheet was a drop-in bed liner at like $500. I told them to remove it and they’d have to pay me to take one.
You’re the buyer. You can stipulate what you want added to the vehicle. Easily 95% of the time if its something that want added by the factory, you can add it yourself for a fraction of what the dealer wants for it.
$350 all-weather floor mats? GTFO of here…
Just perused a big Toyota lot, and everything from base Camrys to loaded Sequoias were marketed up $2k-$6k in dealer added accessories. So instead of working down from MSRP you’re working down from dealer BS
I got a new 2026 GR Corolla without pretty much any accessories. In fact, I was trying to get more into it but it was so quick, in and out. I'll just get them to install later on since that's an option.
My wife wants a new 4Runner. There's been one sitting on the dealer in our towns lot for several months for $56k. Over 60 grand all said and done, thats a hard pass. We decided we're keeping her 2011 4Runner for a long time yet...
My wife currently drives a 5G 4Runner. Went to test drive the new one with the hybrid engine. Apart from the powertrain and new tech, it felt like a sidegrade at best in just about every way. More cramped inside, cheaper feeling interior- hell, they even got rid of the hood struts. Overall, it felt like there was clear cost-cutting all around compared to the 5G. Even my wife, who is not a car person by any means, noticed all of this. Granted, we were in a lower trim, so I didn't expect anything too plush. But then we looked at the price tag- $60k for a model that doesn't even have leather.
Decided we're just going to drive our 5G until the wheels fall off, and then find a used GX460.
We havent even sat in one yet, so i appreciate your perspective. We went to drive one but the price alone chased us off. Not that we can't afford it, but we refuse to get taken advantage of.
Its pretty disappointing how far Toyota has gone to cheapen up their lineup. I have a 2023 Tundra and the interior is a joke. The plastic feels like it came from a dollar store, flashing on seams with sharp edges. Vent louvers that are so flimsy they wont stat where you point them, they fall under their own weight to point at the ceiling. The center console is about as flimsy as the clear packaging youd expect your kids toy on Christmas to come in. Buttons feel flimsy and creaky without nice tactile feel compared to my wifes 2011 4runner. Her old 4Runner the button clicks are solid and feel well built, the dash and consoles feel solid even after 180k miles and 15 years. You can just "feel" effort was put into making components that would last. My Tundra feels like they put effort into making sure it looked nice for the press photos, at the absolute lowest cost possible, then make it cheaper yet.
They've massively reduced their quality while significantly increasing their prices. Seems they're following the enshitification play book to the letter and are selling an inferior product based on their legacy that took decades to build.
Yeah, I'm with you there. Our 2016 4Runner with 120k miles on it feels more solid and better built than the new one. Zero creaks or rattles, and it has been abused. The cost-cutting seems to be an epidemic across most manufacturers post-2020. More tech shoved into your face to distract you from the declining fit & finish/build quality.
Is this with massive markups or something? At msrp you can most certainly get a manual tacoma trd off road for much less than $50k so idk what you are talking about.
I bought my 2011 4runner brand new for $32,600. $36k OTD. It’s still our family car with 192k miles. I have come to the realization that I will never buy another car.
Too bad pay hasn’t kept up with inflation. I paid cash back in 2011. i spent well over $20k on healthcare for my family this year. Nothing left for 4runners.
Dealers in my area are selling used 2025 4Runner 5R5's for 15k over sticker. Madness. I hope this market crashes hard for the amount of greed we're seeing.
Dealers suck, but the fact that they're actually finding people willing to pay these insane markups is the bigger problem.
Even people who can easily afford it shouldn't be willing to pay it. People have gotten stupidly wasteful.
I'm leasing one, it's really not. Literally the cheapest ICE lease available and I wouldn't want to own it outside of warranty but it does "car" just fine. The idea that it was ever a 50k (or even 40k) vehicle however, is laughable.
My rental was a PHEV. The interior was comfortable, the screen was kinda meh, but it had scoot. I walked away from it thinking that if it was cheap enough, leasing one wouldn’t be out of the question.
My brother got one for $100 a month all in (as in literally $0 DAS after taxes). I'm paying a little more, but it's fun to try out a PHEV for basically free. I haven't had problems after the first month but my brother's has spent a lot of time in warranty service.
It's Oregon, so there's basically no sales tax, which helps, but yeah. They were a single car household and leasing a new car saved them money by cutting the Uber bill.
The leases aren't as amazing as they were with the EV credit, but you can pick one up cheap if you're ok owning it. Like 40% off (the ridiculously inflated) MSRP
I still have a bad name association with the Hornet as my family had an AMC Hornet. It was an unreliable piece of shit. So maybe the stellantis is okay to drive. It's gonna be plagued with stellantis problems.
My dealer lot is full of Tacos of pretty much all trims, that 4 banger combined with the price increase made even my friend who is the biggest Toyota fanboy I know get a F150. He looked at the TRD pro sticker price and told me "I can get a F150 Tremor or a loaded Lariat for the same price".
No kidding, I recently test drove a GMC 2500 HD AT4X as a possible next car to replace my half ton and I am shocked how big and solid it feels and how tall you are sitting in it. It feels like a half ton inside and when you drive it, but it deceives you into thinking you are driving a smaller car and the only giveaway is your field of vision and the tow mirrors.
I agree with a lot of the sentiment here. Was really interested in a taco with the refresh and basically came to the same conclusion. A base F150 is 50k CAD, base SR model is 52k. The new taco is an Instragram lifestyle vehicle and Toyota knows they can squeeze it.
What makes me more sick than a $50k+ midsize truck is a 70k+ top trim one and it still has the same engine and the TRD pro trim amounts to an equivalent offroad package from a domestic brand and is not even a Raptor/TRX equivalent. Toyota's greed sickens me
I'm 50/50 on the upper end.
I **don't** have a problem with the Trailhunter/TRD. Nobody is putting a gun to my head and saying I have to buy the top trim, I focus more on the base price as that's the best indicator of the barrier to entry. IMO for someone who is planning on getting a truck and lifting it, adding shocks, adding diff locks, adding a 240v panel it's possible to do it cheaper on your own, but not with a factory warranty. So, I get that.
*However,* in contrast to my above statement: Trailhunters are 90K CAD (over 100 once tax in).... which is fucking nuts. And I totally agree that the TRD Pro should have probably just come with the Tundras V6 instead.
2025 Model:
- Double Cab Hybrid: $67,858.58
- Trailhunter package: $19,999.00
2026 Model:
- Double Cab Hybrid: $68,433.58
- Trailhunter Package: $20,012.00
Prices from: [https://www.toyota.ca/en/build-price/tacoma/?year=2026](https://www.toyota.ca/en/build-price/tacoma/?year=2026)
Dealer in Toronto selling [2025 for 86K on Autotrader](https://www.autotrader.ca/offers/toyota-tacoma-trailhunter-in-stock-available-electric-gasoline-white-797a592f-45d7-4e1f-bf6e-ae7dc2dd3eba?sort=standard&desc=0&position=3&source_otp=t10&source=listpage_search-results&order_bucket=unknown&boost_level=b0n&applied_boost_level=b0n&relevance_adjustment=organic&boosting_product=none)
Dealer in Fort Erie Selling [2026 Model listed at 89,096](https://www.autotrader.ca/offers/toyota-tacoma-hybrid-4x4-double-cab-trailhunter-electric-gasoline-brown-fbd89de2-0b1c-44fd-b64b-0b27f435589f?sort=standard&desc=0&position=8&source_otp=t10&source=listpage_search-results&order_bucket=unknown&boost_level=b1n&applied_boost_level=b1n&relevance_adjustment=boost&boosting_product=total_boost)
I'll amend my statement to say that its not an 90K Vehicle.
My friend got a nice F150 STX for $38.5 K with 2.7T V6. It is a really good truck for the money compared to Tacoma.if I am in the market for a truck, I would go for it even though I am not a fan of Ford.
I can afford that cost that much, I don’t want to. I know people on this subreddit aren’t a fan, but I managed to replace my 11 year old car with a 2024 Elantra for 19k out of the door and I felt I paid too much.
Im in this boat. My original plan with my ranger was to run it to 100k and then trade it in once my extended warranty ended.
While i don't trust its long term reliability id rather eat the cost of a new transmission than the depreciation on a 50k replacement. Despite being a 7 year old truck based on a 2012 design the current crop of pickups aren't significantly better.
I haven’t heard too many bad things about Kias at this point that other manufacturers don’t have beyond the shitty dealerships on honoring items that should be under warranty
Granted, it’s a very different model of Elantra, but I’ve had my Elantra GT N-Line for 6 years and had zero problems, hope yours gives you reliable service as well
I wfh and put about 6400 miles on it because of a few trips, so I think I can get ten years out of it. My previous car was a 2013 accent I gave to my kid.
By 0.6% (real dollars) per year. From 2005 to 2025 wages have increased about 11% accounting for inflation. In the meantime the average new car price has increased 32% accounting for inflation. So car price increases each year are definitely outpacing wages.
A base 4runnwr in 2005 was about 30k, or 48k adjusted for inflation.
A base 4runner in 2025 is 42k, so actually it's below inflation and has gotten cheaper over the years.
Total new car sales are around their average level from the last 50 years. I think it’s just these specific models have an oversupply rather than a market wide trend.
Happens to a handful of models every year.
> and most people are living paycheck to paycheck.
This nonsense is perpetuated on Reddit and easily refuted by checking the federal reserve data on American family finances. Median (50th percentile) net worth for a household is nearly $200k now, median checking and savings balances are ~$10k and stocks/bonds well north of that.
Some shitty quality online tabloid level surveys have had a mathematical majority answering “yes I live paycheck to paycheck” and redditors eat it up because it validates their worldview that America is poor.
Interestingly banks have also conducted surveys of their own customers, and found that a lot of them *report* living paycheck to paycheck, despite actually having liquid assets well in excess of a few months of their average expenditures.
There are many people living paycheck to paycheck with a mortgage and some savings, but they cannot contribute more to their savings and cannot realistically scale back anymore.
> There are many people living paycheck to paycheck
I never said anything that even remotely suggested otherwise. I responded to the quote saying **MOST** people are. Which is plainly untrue
Almost 60% of Americans cannot cover a $1,000 emergency, and a good 1/3 of Americans can't even handle a $400 emergency. If that isn't an indicator of people living paycheck to paycheck, I don't know what else is.
Sources:
https://www.investopedia.com/here-s-how-many-americans-can-t-afford-a-usd400-emergency-the-numbers-may-shock-you-11814788
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saving-money-emergency-expenses-2025/
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When I was car shopping, I just walked out of every dealer that added mandatory accessories/packages/service plans to their cars. Some would be like "where are you going?" and I'd be like "This is Southern California. I'm going to one of the brand's other 5 dealerships in a 10 mile radius that doesn't do this."
I think a chunk of the people who would be willing to pay more than an Escalade for a Lexus LX are holding off because of concerns about the drivetrain. I know a few people who are 6 figures into their Land Cruiser 200s and the overwhelming consensus is that they don’t trust the V35A. And it should have come with a split tailgate.
what else is there? the number of recalls for Toyota/Lexus still pales in comparison to any other brand. even looking at the Tundra - the true problem child - and the impacted vehicles since 2022 is about 1/3rd if any other truck
Yup and if you look at the most objective data we even have which is probably the CR owner survey, the Tundra with the single exception of 2021 has scored higher for drivetrain reliability than any other truck in the same class
Don’t know what the fuck these buyers who don’t trust the V35A are going to buy.
>Don’t know what the fuck these buyers who don’t trust the V35A are going to buy.
They can buy a land cruiser which is the same vehicle, but won’t because it “only has a 4 cylinder” even though it has had no reliability issues so far.
Well yeah, that obviously has a good amount to do with it too. But that's not strictly why. The fact that it's a smaller and less powerful engine relative to the GX is part of the reason why as well. If the LC had a hybrid 3.4L turbo V6, it wouldn't be as efficient as it is now, because it would be more powerful, and thus thirstier.
Lexus has been going downhill for the past few years now in general. The RX and GX aren’t as good as their predecessors. The new ES is a joke. They got rid of the IS500, and the updated IS is uglier on the outside than the perfect 2021-2025 model. And the LS and LC are going away. I honestly don’t like most new cars that are coming out these days.
The new ES styling is definitely horrific and the IS losing the V8 and being styled so poorly is definitely odd to me. I don't know who the fuck is doing their design.
As far as going downhill otherwise... Well, I think their engines are still top notch compared to competitors and the GX looks great even if I do wish it had the V8.
I can't really think of another vehicle I'd buy though if I wanted a very comfortable and reliable crossover, the RX still wins that category easily.
> I honestly don’t like most new cars that are coming out these days.
Well same, but such is the life of someone who prefers naturally aspirated engines and the muted but still soulful style of the 2010s.
Regarding the GX...it's more than just not having the V8 anymore. Its interior is a downgrade from the previous gen interior. It just doesn't look as luxurious. How did Lexus go from [this](https://dealerimages.dealereprocess.com/image/upload/2911074), to [this?](https://tractionlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/2024-Lexus-GX-550-21.jpg) The new one looks far less upscale. Hell, you can't even get wood on the steering wheel on the GX550. And the giant screens don't make the interior look nicer. Same goes for the RX, although it's not as bad of an offender as the GX in regard to the interior....but going from a n/a V6 to a turbo 4 is what's bad with the RX. It doesn't sound like a luxury car when you hit the gas. But honestly, the worst offender is probably the LX. The old 570 was beautiful inside. The 600 is a joke, especially for the price.
I’ve driven both the 460 and the 550 a good amount, to me the 550 upgrade is very luxurious and I don’t think it feels the way it photographs personally
the argument against these newer engine designs is interesting - my friend at Toyota during 2018/2019 when everyone was saying “where tf is the new 4Runner?” was that Toyota was waiting for stability in EPA requirements …. so the updated engine designs are Toyota’s attempt, much like the rest of the industry, to appeal to EPA requirements.
i have faith that these engines will eventually pan out, but I have more confidence that an even slightly modernized version of the prev V8 would sell out
Every single engine since the Clean Air Act in the 1970s has been manufacturers "trying to appeal to EPA requirements", this is not new at all. It's gotten tighter and tighter over time, in the 90s another whole new slew of regulations passed. Yet some of the most reliable Toyota motors of all time are 90s or 2000s motors.
I am sure Toyota would sell a massive displacement V8 getting 5MPG that will run 4 million miles if they were allowed to, and I am sure it would sell extremely well with a particular demographic. I am also sure their V8 offering would sell very well if it were available in the new GX.
But the EPA song and dance isn't new.
I was referring to the Tier 2 (2004-2009) and Tier 3 (2017-present) regulations, specifically. No doubt there was impact before that.
There’s been a lot of back and forth on the regulation & implementation of these phased requirements that is quite political.
In addition, NHTSA’s CAFE standards, effectively requiring a certain average MPG across a manufacturer’s fleet (lots of additional details, but at a high level) certainly played a role.
Wouldn’t be considered on-par with this new V6 in the GX? Failure points in peripheral, camshaft-driven fuel/oil system components.
Agreed that the 3.5L might be amongst the best of modern engines, but the complexity in all of these is a challenge
The complexity is a challenge, but ford has been producing the cohost for over a decade now, they seem to have a handle on the 2.7s and 3.5s. But yeah, when things break they’re more annoying vs a simple v8.
I had a 2015 GX and test drove one of the new GXs when I was looking for a new car. I was extremely unimpressed with them from just about every aspect. The salesman told me there was currently a year long waiting list at the time and I couldn't understand why except maybe because it was a new model and just "hot". But honestly I can't say I blame you.
I mean, Lexus knocked the exterior design out of the park. Boxy, offroady SUVs are very popular right now.
Plus a turbo V6, seating for 7, good towing, a Lexus badge, all for under $100k - what's not to like?
It looks great on paper, and when dealers don't have any to test drive due to production issues, yeah, the waitlist is going to be long.
I was considering one as a potential 'next vehicle' given that I dislike just about everything the Germans are putting out, but, yeah, the reviews have not been great.
Oh I agree it looks great. I test drove one of the Luxury trims and it just didn't feel like a "Luxury" vehicle for the price point. There was just so much plastic and the features and ride quality were lacking compared to what was offered from some of the rivals.
You aren’t the target market for the gx550. It is an offroad vehicle that is luxurious, not a luxury vehicle. The solid rear axle is always going to give it a worse ride than the independent rear suspension competitors. Compare it to a bronco or a wrangler and it is much more luxurious while being almost as good for reasonable offroading. If you don’t plan on going off road the gx550 is not what you want to get.
Yeah that’s my point; they positioned this one more as an offroad vehicle and you don’t want fancy wood and other easy to get dirty/damaged trim if you are going to get dirt all over it. The previous gen was more of a regular luxury cruiser and also less capable offroad.
What does “cheap plastics” mean to you though? People say stuff like that but it is unclear what would be an “expensive plastic” to me. My land cruiser has a lot of plastic (as do almost all cars these days) but it is mostly durable matte plastic that seems like it will resist wear better. Bmws, on the other hand, have plastic that might look nicer but they always have issues with flaking and other wear.
Assuming you are referring to the matte plastics, that is because gloss plastic will get scratched to hell by dirt and sand when you go offroad (which is what the vehicle is designed for).
The plastics I'm referring to are not glossy. They're injection molded, thicker, softer touch composites.
The GX is not cheaper inside because of "off-roading" concerns. It's because Toyota is cost cutting. That's all. It, the 4Runner, and the Land Cruiser all have mediocre interiors and powertrains. They're coasting on reputation at this point.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree then. I have no real complaints about the interior of my land cruiser materials other than the panel below the glove compartment getting squeaky in the cold, which I fixed with some cloth tape. I bought it for the off road capability, not to have a rolls royce.
>I have a 2018 GX460 that I’m ready to trade in, and it damn sure won’t be for the new GX.
New GX is a) much better looking than any alternatives and b) still more reliable
True, but if the Lexus isn't more reliable than the Escalade it has little to sell itself on other than actual serious off-road ability that most buyers will not use.
People love paying for off road capabilities they'll never use
Source: The millions of pristine pavement princess pickups rolling around that have barely seen a gravel road, let alone a trail of any kind
> I know a few people who are 6 figures into their Land Cruiser 200s and the overwhelming consensus is that they don’t trust the V35A.
Lol with respect you should consider that they’re emotionally invested in the (old) vehicle they already own. Of course all those guys will say they don’t trust the new engines. It’s survivorship bias, basically a textbook case. Anyone with the money to have bought a 200 series LC (and pay for the fucking 10mpg they probably got since buying it) but who hasn’t upgraded to something new, is very likely to be an “I only trust the old school engines” person
These people don’t just own Land Cruisers, they often have several other expensive cars they bought brand new. And they have also bought multiple generations of Cruisers brand new. The 300 is now probably halfway through its lifespan and none of the hardcore enthusiasts are buying them here. The people with 300 money are keeping their 200s or buying super clean 2020-21s.
Honestly, I haven’t run into that many “I only trust old school engines” type people. Everyone knows that Toyota is capable of making reliable hybrid engines that run forever, they did it for the Prius 25 years ago. The few people I do know that meet that stereotype have 40s, 60s, or 80s.
The V35A has been failing effectively at random, and signs point to it being an issue with the oiling design of the engine itself instead of "debris from the factory" so I don't blame them
Lmfao all engine failures are, from a statistical standpoint, "effectively random" in that they roughly follow a Poisson distribution for any one particular engine. The V35A is still substantially more reliable than anything else on the market in that size class
Just because they follow a roughly poisson distribution doesn't mean that the samples are i.i.d. There is a big difference between engine failure because of lack of maintenance scheduling or part replacement and an engine that fails because of unavoidable design issues.
Ok but we are talking about vehicles that are within the first few years of their lives. The number of literal engine failures due to lack of maintenance is going to be tiny. But yes, I should clarify that I am referring to non-user-error failures. Those are always going to appear essentially random, and by definition every single engine has design issues that will lead to random failures, even if they are rare.
the biggest issue i have with the 2025 LC is not the engine but lack of split gate
that was the biggest selling point on the 200 series. I REALLY liked that.
Out of all these vehicles the GX is 100% the one to get so I’m not surprised. It’s what the Land Cruiser should have been and is actually worth both of 50 unlike these other models
who under 50 really has 40 grand to spend on the lowest tier truck on the market? and who in the market for a corolla isn’t buying used? if you just buy a car that’s 1 year old, with under 10k miles, you’re saving thousands.
I’m gonna go to bat for my maverick. Yeah it was $40k but it was the tippy top trim level. You can get it for significantly cheaper if you forgot some of the creature comforts. It also does literally everything I need it to do; it’s comfortable, I can haul the occasional piece of furniture, mulch, or plywood, my golf clubs fit, really no complaints at all
you see, and i understand the market share it has, i don’t hate the thought of a small truck. however, the price point in comparison to where it is on the totem pole? i entirely don’t understand. in my eyes a brand new base maverick is a $20,000 truck all day, but that’s not the world we live in anymore, almost 30k for the base out the door.
I just bought a new 2026 F150 XL for 46k. Idk if thats considered base but its a reg cab v8 4wd
actually really enjoying it. nice mix of modern features but still fairly basic. was a nice inbetween considering i was coming from a 2011 impreza.
and the 400hp 5.0 v8 is fuckin fun! cant wait to get a catback tune and leveling kit with 35s. gonna be sweet
>and who in the market for a corolla isn’t buying used?
My dad didn't. We got him an XLE hybrid for $4000 off.
>f you just buy a car that’s 1 year old, with under 10k miles, you’re saving thousands.
Depends on the car and how well it holds its value. If it's a Toyota, you're often better off buying new and also getting the new car financing rates if you don't pay cash.
Yeah, everyone says buy a used Toyota/Honda but to my mind those are the two biggest brands I wouldn't buy used. Geee I can have a brand new Corolla or I can save $2k and get one 3 years with 20k miles and out of warranty. Plus the financing if that's a consideration
And the used ones have been driven by the customers that gravitate to Toyota in the first place. Probably don't even know what engine oil is because who needs preventative maintenance when you have ReLiAbIlItY?
That’s pretty standard for Toyota’s. When they make a change people can’t handle it, even when it’s clearly an improvement. I have a 2024 Tacoma with the standard transmission and it drives amazing. It has so much torque down low and almost feels like a diesel. The motor hasn’t had any issues at all and it’s sad seeing people spreading misinformation about it on the internet, because I think it’s truly a great motor that’s heavily beefed up for its use case. Time will tell if it’ll go 500k plus like previous generations but I can see it having a very good chance at doing it.
It might not be accepted by people who bought the previous generation (like yourself), but people in real life as well as people online who actually have them like them a lot. Most complaints I see are from people who have the previous gens not people who actually have the new ones.
Maybe. But I see 4th gen owners complain in the Toyota community fairly often, especially about the transmissions.
And I think it's only natural for Toyota/car guys to be skeptical of Toyota switching up the formula that made those trucks last 500k, especially given what's going on with Tundras, and I think it's *also* fair to say that a bunch of people buying the new ones aren't necessarily "car guys." I mean my wife wants a new 4Runner and doesn't know shit about any of it other than she loves how it looks. And they *do* look nice.
I think ultimately the engine will prove itself though, and may even be one of the greats. I test drove a '24 TRD Sport and it *was* nice, but ultimately I didn't have the faith to pull the trigger on a 4th gen, since I knew the v6 combo had a proven track record of longevity. (And I prefer the looks of he 3rd gen, but that's very subjective so not worth really mentioning)
On the other hand, the V6 and its transmission are loud and always seem to be hunting for the right gear, at least where I live at high elevation. The turbo in the new one helps with that. I’m sure it won’t last as long when you start getting over 200k miles which is too bad, but that is a result of emission laws. It does seem like toyota has at least tried to make as reliable a turbo 4 as they could have, with the air to air intercooler and vacuum actuated wastegate and other design choices. The V35A on the other hand is pretty complicated.
So mine has that "ECT" that make it much better with the gear searching, also you can get a tune to fix that but I'm still under warranty so I'm not going to do that just yet.
Also that new turbo 4 has a *very* beefed up cooling system so that should help to.
But again, like I said, the confidence just wasn't there for me. Maybe next time around when I seen a little more of how it lasts.
Who knows though, with the easing up of the emissions standards maybe we'll see them move back to v6's.
What I really wish is that they would do a turbo inline six, but toyota doesn’t want to make those themselves any more for whatever reason. Everyone talks about how the 4 cylinder is rougher than a V6, but for me the V6’s are still not that smooth compared to the V8’s and inline sixes so it isn’t as big of a deal for me. If I actually want smoothness, I will get one of those.
They are selling 10,000-12,000 per month just like the peak of the 5th gen and there are only a couple on lots in my large city. The article is manipulating data and is including vehicles still being shipped/allocated but not yet on lots.
Many US dealers seem to be super greedy. They'd rather have the car sit on the lot for a year or even two if that means there's a chance for a sucker to show up and pay what they're asking.
The GR Corolla to me is far less desirable than the Yaris
Despite similar performance the Yaris looks like a little rally rocket while the Corolla looks like… a Corolla.
The GR Yaris are far more common for just being much cooler
It doesn't help that the Corolla hatch has horrible space efficiency. You can fit four comfortably in a Golf R and the cargo area is decently sized. The short wheelbase of the Corolla hatch kills the back seat and the trunk floor is basically at the ceiling.
Totally agreed, as I have been looking to replace my Fiesta ST, what a disappointment that we only received the GR Corolla. That car is kinda like the Focus RS we got, a bit too big and heavy to be as chuckable as a smaller hatch. The GR Yaris is a simple win, coming in at only around 2800lbs, and as you said, has those goofy rally proportions, like a chihuahua on steroids.
The GR Yaris looks seriously exotic on the road. They’re such a special car for the money.
The GR Corolla is actually a great looking car too, but I find the Corolla platform dated and the 3 cylinder doesn’t scale up as well on the larger platform.
Agreed on both counts, unfortunately I haven’t seen a GR Yaris in the flesh as I am in the states, but it looks great.
$60k can get you some really good cars, I can’t imagine paying that much for a Yaris but here we are.
It also seems like the GR Corolla has less tuning headroom due to the slight differences in the GR Yaris vs GR Corolla engine.
The tuning scene hasn't been able to do much with the GR Corolla.
The 1.6 turbo makes sense in a Yaris sized car but it’s under engined in a Corolla. I get they were just working with what they had but a golf R blows it out of the water
Look for "new" 2023 models out there. Last time I checked a few months ago before the EV credits were going to expire in the U.S., there were thousands sitting out there. You're going to see a LOT of "new" 2025 model EV's sitting on lots still a few years from now. Most of them will have rot lot by then.
I'd love a regional breakdown on some of this.
I have a theory about some Toyota product... in the south/east the Toyota distributor Southeast Toyota Distributors is one of the absolute worst offenders of adding unnecessary and expensive accessories to their product. And you basically can't escape it. Thankfully this doesn't impact me directly, I'm not in their region, but when I've looked at some nation wide supply on some models that situation is crazy.
Toyota does so much batch manufacturing its frustrating. I was talking with a dealer recently about some specific configurations of Land Cruisers, 4Runners, Tacomas, and Tundras and its a frustrating mix of waiting game and pure luck to be able to find specific configurations. I definitely think it could create some "boom and bust" cycles when they're shipping specific desired configurations things are great but then they may go into making some undesired configurations and its bust.
So true. I absolutely despise SE Toyota for all the BS mark up on every model. I would never pay an extra 3-5k on a base Corolla just to have Toyoguard and whatever else.
I was somehow lucky enough to get a GR86 a few years back with just the cable package and some cheap dealer window tint.
Totally agree. I just purchased from a south east Toyota dealer and I pre purchased a car with my exact wants because of this. They had a Land Cruiser mid trim up over 80k with addons and fees.
This might be salesman bs but they told me they allocate the dealer addons at the port and they can be swapped between vehicles at the lot. They did offer to remove the roof racks and 20 inch wheel addons which were around 5k on the sticker.
The distributorship for the southeast of toyota is privately owned like Subaru is for New England. And let me tell you the distributor bolts all kinds of shit onto the cars because they can and they go on the window sticker.
SET is also somehow a separate jurisdiction for out of region warranty claims. Asinine that they are some weird red-headed step child despite Toyota themselves selling in the same country.
Another thing is that 2026 GX, LX and 4Runners have literally *just* started arriving at dealers this month.
The GX has exceptionally low inventory that you can barely even find them.
Yeah I was extremely suspect of the “2025 GXs sitting on lots” part of this headline. I wanted to literally just test drive one and it took months because they were all sold before they even hit the lot at my local dealer. Reddit might not like them but they are selling
Ya I’m in the PNW and wanted a GX in a specific spec, and my local dealer said it would be a 4-6 month wait. Ended up doing a 4Runner instead and might revisit the GX in a couple years
> Toyota distributor Southeast Toyota Distributors is one of the absolute worst offenders of adding unnecessary and expensive accessories to their product
I'm in their territory. I bought out of their territory and it's a breath of fresh air.
That’s not a “basic trd sport” though, that is the trd sport premium which is a lot more than just “leather seats” (even though they are fake leather). It is a $5,000 package that adds a lot of features. Also for $60k you can get a Limited trim or trd off road premium.
I hate to be the one to have to break this to you, but $45k in 2017 (which is halfway through the life of the previous generation 4runner) is equivalent to $60k now with inflation. They are still slightly more expensive than they used to be, but they also updated the entire platform and drivetrain vs just using the same thing for an entire decade which no doubt kept prices down.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the new 4Runner is a step down in almost every aspect, and not worth 15k+ more in any way shape or form, inflation be damned. The Land Cruiser is nearly the same price. I'll stick with my RS6...
Aside from the obvious cars that genuinely are unpopular, theres very few incentives for people to trade up these days. Gone are the days of 0% financing or substantial advancements in vehicles to truly influence an upgrade from your current car.
Niche cars will always be enthusiast catered, i.e GR Corolla or even new 4Runners - hard to capture larger sales and move inventory.
I went to two dealers to look at a GX and they both had none, and told me they don't have any coming that aren't spoken for.
I suspect this is just funny accounting and not an actual glut of Gxs out there.
You are correct and GX’s are certainly not piling up. Most dealers are still getting a bit over sticker for them.
This is solely due to Toyota barely producing them, at least certainly below demand. Most larger dealerships barely get more than 3-4 a month.
I don’t believe there are any 2026 models on the ground yet.
Something is up. I saw the GV60 on that list but they are impossible to find around me. Cars.com only has 43 new GV60s listed. Nationwide. Percentages are fun that way.
Can't say I am shocked, after my accident in the beginning of December I've been looking at cars and currently going to dealers. Often dealers have high mark ups and if they don't just have a million options that you know are "must haves" it's tiring. Not to mention a lot I am talking to just aren't willing to budge on the price or let you go on a test drive longer than 5-10 miles. I can see how companies like CarMax and carvana have found sustained success.
Depends on your region. Around me, GRCs still sell pretty quickly. The dealer I bought mine from still seems to sell them within a week or 2 of getting it off the truck. Auto GR86s and GRCs seem to sit for longer.
Big reason for the Maverick inventory is they had a big recall in 2025 with the back up cameras and they can’t sell inventory until it was resolved. Now it’s fixed and dealers are fire selling them rn. I got mine for a super competitive price bc of the fact it was on the lot for 180 days.
I keep hearing people read these numbers off for reels and tiktok but it doesn't make sense to me, especially regarding the GX550. My local dealer has *zero* avail and has had *zero* all year. They have 94 sale pending and 34 in route, but zero unspoken for - and most of these are 2026, not 25. On what planet has only \****12%***\* of 2025 inventory GX's sold?
At least for the GX, this does not seem accurate. Lexus dealers post incoming stock but they are all spoken for before they hit dealer lots. I’m trying to buy one now and this is what I’ve found.
Some this is straight wrong with the numbers from Lexus/toyota unless the GX and 4Runner are on hold for sale somehow. The GR Corolla has to be the leftover automatics. I cannot get mavericks on proper specs for buyers here in SoCal.
I wonder if the stop sell of the 2024 Maverick had a big impact on the 2025’s. Once they resolved the issue that dumped a ton of 2024’s into the market and they were able to sell them cheaper.
Tried to get a Ford Maverick, the dealer pulled some sap story about how they’re already running razor thin margins on them and that they were firm on the price of a lariat. Went down to Chevy and got a Colorado Trail Boss for damn near the same price as a Maverick Lariat. Don’t regret it one bit. Chevy was more than willing to find me a vehicle and gave me double my trade in value that Ford did.
Stop buying them. I started doing that thing where people call landlords and keep telling them the price is too high. Eventually a guy was like well what are you looking for. I asked for 7 off of sticker for a Flagship car I knew had been on their lots for months. And it was black..."no one even wants black". The guy went for it. They could sell them cheaper they just don't. They want us to think they are losing money.....BULLSHIT!
The list also includes E-Ray and Mustang.
It looks like most Vette buyers taken Z06 over than E-Ray, they want romantic flat-plane, not realistic hybrid power.
For Mustang, well, that isn’t good. I wonder the future of pony car market.
Atleast in the Northeast, it seems like Chevy dealers are discounting Z06's more then E-Rays to the point where they are basically the same price.
I think the ERay is a nifty car, but for the same price as a Z06...
I don’t even like the S550 but the S650 is just a terrible value in comparison. Sane car but way more expensive and a worse interior.
I know their overpriced ass options are gassing the hell outta their margarina bc you can find the specced out ones for $10k off…and it’s still too expensive
I think, on paper, the E-ray seems like a really cool car. But that wail of the z06 is enchanting. Something like a corvette is already an emotional purchase, so it makes sense that the model that feels more special ends up selling better.
My issue with the current mustang is that the GT's are in the $50k+ range. Mildly used c8's arent that much more money. I know it's not apples to apples, but if i had 50-60k as my budget, I would probably stretch to the top of budget and try to find a low miles c8 rather than a new gt
I just walked away from a 2025 4Runner Trailhunter after getting almost $5k off because of cost vs. value.
Still just wasn’t right. I can get a 402A F-150 Tremor for that price.
Yea I mean I’d take a GR corolla off their hands but for the price, no thanks. Seems smarter to get my 3rd fiesta st and have just as much fun with cheaper consumables.
GXs are surprising to me because despite the recall they’re selling before they hit the lot, but everything else is not surprising to me. The new 4Runner is overpriced and kinda tinny, most people can’t even afford an LX, the Grolla™️ is a fun car but the automatic sucks and it’s still got a Corolla interior, and people who want trucks don’t want a Maverick, I haven’t really heard anything bad about the Maverick otherwise.
And I hope they continue sitting. I’m admittedly a Toyota/Lexus boy, but even I can say they are way too many markups on the upper level Toyota/Lexus models. There’s no reason why the average price of the 4Runner should be in the 50’s, it’s a great car but not at that range
Aren’t all those Toyota vehicles shipped from Japan late?
From say cars.com there’s only like 300 GXs ‘available’ in the country though they’re mostly pre-sold already
Wasn’t entirely accurate of me to say there but it was just from my experience a while ago about calling dealerships on the cars.com listing on a multiple GXs that were the trim I wanted but they’d say it was in transit but was already allocated for; maybe pre sold wasn’t right since they could back out
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