Why? Luxury car buyers look for foreign brand, performance, and features. There is going to be a drop with competition, but 80% on a long-time luxury/sport brand like Porsche seems to indicate something else. Maybe Chinese consumers are different, but the engineering behind the vehicles are fine.
They don't make objectively bad cars. They're charging about as much as you can before super-car territory. I think that is the main problem. They're just really expensive, when you can get luxury for 40-60k in China.
This arrogant attitude towards Chinese consumer needs is one of the core shortcomings of especially German OEMs leading to their downfall. When you think you know better what the customer needs than the customer him/herself you will lose them sooner or later (even if you offer German Engineering with perfect Spaltmaß!)
China's economy has had a downturn in recent years, likely slowing if not shrinking the number of potential luxury car buyers. And as you pointed out (I think), foreign made vehicles are significantly more expensive, due to tariffs and higher development costs, than domestic options.
Definitely can't blame buyers for moving to more affordable options, even on the high end. That said, not sure what other reasons OC may have had for that comment.
If you look at domestic brands, there really not that much benefit of buying a foreign car anymore.
The only thing that a BMW does better than a domestic car is handling. Which very very few chinese buyers care about.
Why should someone pay 50% more for a car that has a worse interior with worse tech and probably less power?
I've spent an extensive amount of time on the Chinese internet and the general consensus there is that the only reason to buy BMW, MB and Audi are for for the badge.
I don't think you understand how big of a discount these cars are seeing. New cars pretty much expected to see 30% discounts off msrp. Older designs see a discount of as much as 40-50% off msrp for brand new cars.
Absolute nonsense. China's build quality has taken a nose dive over the past several years.
[https://china.jdpower.com/press-releases/2025-china-initial-quality-study-iqs](https://china.jdpower.com/press-releases/2025-china-initial-quality-study-iqs)
Do they offer subscriptions in China? Because the last thing I know was that BMW dropped off this bug (I resist calling this a feature) because no one was buying it.
Chinas economy has not had a “downturn” in recent years at all.
What has happened in the Chinese market is that luxury foreign brands have fallen out of favour as Chinese brands have gotten a lot better. Chinese consumers now prefer domestic luxury brands tailored specifically to the Chinese consumer rather than foreign ones.
I don't believe that. You don't go from wanting a Porsche, Lamborghini, or Ferrari because your country released its own luxury vehicle.
That's like someone in America cross shopping a Porsche with a Cadillac.
Maybe it does happen, but it's essentially two different tiers of cars.
Of course this is anecdotal, but when I bought my C7 I 100% cross-shopped it with a Cayman S and 911 Carrera (among others).
I picked the c7 because it was the simply best performing car.
It's not really a stretch that someone would pick a modern Cadillac blackwing over the base 911
Well a base 911 is $130k. A C8 starts at $70k and tops out at $90k.
To get into porsche money you're have to go with a C8 zr1, which is $150k. But that model is probably targeted at hard core fans of the corvette.
I could be wrong, but I don't know that there is that much cross shopping going on between C8 folks and Porsche folks.
Uh, your prices on the C8 are totally wrong.
The ZR1 starts at $175k, and can be optioned up to almost $200k.
There's also the Z06 at ~$120k, and the E Ray going up to ~$130k.
Then of course there's the ZR1X which goes up to ~$230k.
I think if compare base-to-base, or top-to-top it makes a lot more sense.
Like porsche is kinda the king of expensive options. You can spend $16k for magnesium rims, $20k for a heritage design package, The Weissach Package for the GT3 RS saves 33lbs and is $33k, or $43k for custom paint.
I'm not saying you can't spend a lot at a Chevy dealership. They will happily take your money. Just that both brands have different market segments they are targeting.
That's true, definitely. But I have to imagine there is definitely some crash shopping for people who are interested more in performance more than luxury.
There is a ton on the upper trims. I've met multiple people who've swapped out of a GT3 into a Z06 just because the value is so much better and you get just as much, if not more car for less money.
And if you buy a Corvette outside of the US you get the worst of both worlds, which I guess is why they're not that common elsewhere.
The Z06 in my market starts at 165k USD, compared to 120k in the US. A GT3 starts at 180k USD here and will have better resale value and dealer support, so I may as well go for that instead.
That’s a Western perspective. I don’t know the Chinese perspective, but it seems entirely possible that they might make very different decisions in regard to brand.
Right, China alone has more people than the entirety of MENA and Europe combined -- including Russia -- and with a few hundred million leftover to spare. I think claiming the tastes and spending habits of people from the UK to Estonia to Turkey to Libya hold true universally would rightly have people raising an eyebrow.
Absolutely correct! Chinese are that much better! Look at the Xiaomi SU7 or Huawei Maextro. It takes a lot to dethrone legends. Rapidly expanding car market gave the makers support and they ran with it
China's wealth is deeply tied to real estate making up a huge chunk of household wealth, \~60% and the real-estate sector is in serious trouble.
Not unreasonable to speculate the Chinese consumers are not buying foreign luxury cars, or instead hunkering down and buying cheaper "domestic" luxury.
You should come live in China for a while. Brand loyalty means nothing. Brand heritage doesn’t do much. Buying a xiaomi car just because it’s a hype product and the domestic brands offer much better integration with Chinese preferences for tech and price. Anti foreign brand propaganda also influences a lot of buyers.
They never wanted brands, they wanted features that were only available on those brands. Why would anyone get a Taycan now when the Su7 is clearly a better car - being half the price is a just a bonus?
> You don't go from wanting a Porsche, Lamborghini, or Ferrari because your country released its own luxury vehicle.
A huge amount of the value attached to those brands *is* the brand name recognition, and the associations people have with said brands e.g. James Bond drives the car in his movies or whatever. I don't think the average Chinese customer has the exact same tastes as the average American customer
China's economy has absolutely had a downturn in recent years. GDP growth has slown significantly as has domestic spending, their real estate market's collapsed, deflation has become an issue and youth unemployment has risen.
China's economy is far from collapsing, they're still in the grand scheme of things doing well, but it's not anywhere close to as hot as it was say 6 years ago.
Regardless, foreign luxury brands have been tailoring to the Chinese consumer... they've done it so much, Westener's won't stop complaining about how much their favourite brand has changed its direction towards this new target audience.
> they've done it so much, Westener's won't stop complaining about how much their favourite brand has changed its direction towards this new target audience.
Like those stupid retracting door handles that everyone is going to scramble to get rid of now that they're illegal in China.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
GDP growth is still higher than US. Which means the rich can still buy. The reality is they are turning to domestic brands and have a major anti west sentiment
China's GDP growth being higher than another countries is irrelevant to whether or not China's wealthy are spending less.
And China's wealthy is spending less, because like I've already gone over, their economy has dipped in recent years.
Luxury sales as per the Chinese definition (300K RMB).
• 2020: 2,530,000 units
• 2021: 2,850,000 units
• 2022: 3,090,000 units
• 2023: 3,600,000 units
• 2024: 3,950,000 units
• 2025: 4,150,000 units (Estimated)
That’s how they define it in their statistics.
China GDP per capita is 13,000 USD, around the same as Mexico, and there are lots of models available for less than 10K. So in China, that does count as a luxury vehicle.
A new $40k car isn't a luxury vehicle anywhere in the world. The standards for what a luxury car is, doesn't change based on region, only time.
I don't know why you and others in this thread keep citing GDP as if it's a measure of spending power, because it's not. It's just a measure of economic activity.
You’re almost right. The Chinese manufacturers have upped their game massively, the consumers have turned to domestic brands because they are good. Before western brands were good and that’s what they bought. It’s not an anti-west sentiment, people just buy what they like.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, it absolutely has if you are a wealthy Chinese businessman that had hopes to buy a luxury car. The growth from 2000 to 2020 in China was explosive. The growth from 2021 until now is minuscule in comparison.
China is currently in a housing crisis so severe that it has its entire own [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_property_sector_crisis_(2020%E2%80%93present)). This is extremely important because historically, real estate has been the primary investment for the average Chinese person. This is the opposite of the US, where the average person has seen an over 40% investment return in the past three years alone simply by investing in the S&P 500.
So when wealthy Chinese businessmen are looking at their real estate holdings with slow or negative growth they are not nearly as likely to splurge on something like a Porsche.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have a Porsche, but have seen the Chinese luxury/performance brands and they completely own my car in every way at less than half the price. If I didn't live in an uncompetitive country that has outright banned Chinese cars, I would have gone with one of them no question.
I rented a Geely in Costa Rica and was absolutely blown away. It was a great car at a great price. The coolray we got was like a lifted Corolla hatch, awesome setup, handled like a champ and seems rock solid for the 10 days I drove it.
this is a really good video to watch, in short chinese consumers are different because of their government culture shifting away from driving say Mercedes S classes for military people to now driving domestic Chinese brands so that people watching on television associate that with them along with strength and prosperity. Also in times of economic uncertainty, the Chinese government has subconsciously put onto wealthy people that it’s not a good luck to be flexing a Rolex when other people are doing worse and to be more humble because it’s tasteless if you’re gaudy. It’s an interesting perspective though. But also to be fair national brands are heavily subsidize there in China and especially electric vehicle vehicles so there’s incredible amounts of competition and innovation and Porsche does lag behind. And for context, the only car company in China that is independently owned completely is Tesla. That’s because they needed a big fish to draw in. That would find suppliers in China that would create what they needed to then kickstart the industry they want to have come. Because without them, they can’t just figure out how to build EV they don’t have any manufacturing already there. It’s some sort of catfish effect of it takes a new player to then make all the fish start swimming fast because they’ve joined a new pool. Hope this helped.
https://youtu.be/wvqJXREWztM?si=pN-vZIrIUz5_T1gp
Overall taste has changed for consumers as a whole to more domestic brands as their economy and domestic products matured. This is happening across basically every market across China.
Or somebody who is actually familiar with Chinese politics would tell you that the luxury sector in China whether domestic or foreign is suffering and has been for a while for a couple reasons.
1. China’s economy has slowed to its slowest past in 20 or so years due to extended COVID restrictions.
2. The political atmosphere has also dramatically changed and the communist party has gone after billionaires and other high profile wealthy figures in the country perceived as “loving money more than the country.” This has made conspicuous spending on luxury items drop precipitously. Everything from luxury watches, cosmetics, bags, cars have suffered drops.
It used to be considered trendy to have flashy items but now it’s seen as a liability.
I’m wondering how much the same is happening in the us with the corvette. Based on the number of posts and articles, clearly people are cross shopping both.
This is not without a precedence. The European's automakers learned nothing from Hyundai/Kia's decline in China.
Hyundai/Kia had close to 10% Chinese auto market share in 2015/2016. Then it was forced out under Xi's Made-In-China 2025 and after THAAD. It lost about \~90% sales and now down to 1%.
I couldn’t, because there are lots of expensive Chinese cars being sold. He’s probably made his own definition and if i had to guess its western traditional luxury brands like the company he js CEO of.
Exactly. There are more brands of essentially every luxury good in China (e.g. phones, electronics, cars) that no one outside of China has ever heard of. There's something like 80 domestic Chinese EV brands, for example, IIRC
Porsche. The market has heavily pivoted towards Chinese domestic vehicles. All western manufacturers have seen a significant decline in sales and probably wont ever see the growth they had in the past.
While I enjoyed the loaner Porsche EVs and even know some people who leased them when they launched, nobody is "lining up" to buy them and they languish on lots lease end. Porsche needs to go back to making stuff people love like the 911, Cayman, Boxster, Macan, Cayenne.
Lol they are. But the problem is that they shutdown factories and built new ones with billions of dollars to sell in China. Thats why they killed the Cayman 718 and was making it an EV.
Now that sales have fallen off a cliff that investment wasn't worth it and their budgeting is messed up
Blume should've been sacked from both roles. The CEO's job is to guide the company into the future. If you make a bold, risky move and it pays off, wonderful. If it doesn't work you've cost the geoup billions of dollars and thousands of people have to be laid off. That's grounds for dismissal. It's harsh, but the CEO doesn't earn 8 figures a year for nothing.
This should go for all the C-suite at all the established automakers tbh. It's beyond silly to see headline after headline of these people touring Chinese facilities and returning home pale-faced with their hat in their hand. These people are paid tens of millions presumably for their expertise in leadership in this field and time and time again they seem to have been caught completely flat-footed by the domestic and export automotive industry within China
The luxury market in general, it's not quite a collapse but LVMH, Kerig, all the big names bet big on the market & underperformed relative to their expectations these past few years.
It definitely puts into perspective wealth since I thought you mistyped Keurig. I mean I guess at home coffee is kind of luxurious lol. Never heard of Kering before.
The market is turning inwards as China pulls away from the world production market as a whole. Their luxury market has soured somewhat, but not nearly what the title would have you believe.
NEV sales hit nearly 60% last month. Porsche ICE may still be in demand among the 40% of the market still buying ICE, their EVs aren't remotely competitive in China. They're basically fighting for a shrinking slice of a shrinking pie.
Domestic Chinese cars are so good now, they’ve killed the foreign market. Used to get by on prestige but that’s not enough anymore. National pride and the fact the cars are good now and with a lot of cutting edge tech is working
The Chinese market for all foreign car makers has been in steep decline for at least the last two years.
[China Auto Market 2025: Why the West Is Losing](https://germanautopreneur.com/p/china-vs-west-auto-market-update-september-2025)
That seems like an exaggeration. China luxury spending is down though. They took a beating from real estate collapse and overall there are signs of economic challenges ahead. On top of that, there is oversupply of domestic cars leading to price war.
The entire push to China was a massive boondoggle for almost everyone.
The Chinese government does not let automakers manufacture domestically unless they entered into a 50/50 joint venture with a domestic firm (the firms often pre-chosen for their favorable relationships to the party). Most of these firms would end up getting betrayed by their partners (shocking!) who extracted designs and manufacturing experience and then funnelled them into competing, rival brands that sell for much cheaper.
Porsche avoided this by importing their cars - but the market is already flooded with way more cheap car options.
Volkswagen *could* manufacture Porsche's domestically for them. But there's not going to be any money made when BYD has already effectively ripped off their designs and offers more luxury for much less cost.
>The Chinese government does not let automakers manufacture domestically unless they entered into a 50/50 joint venture with a domestic firm.
This policy was canceled since 2018 and Tesla became the first wholly foreign-owned automobile manufacturer in China.
The same thing happened in aerospace 20 years ago. Chinese companies “partnered” with US aerospace companies, took the IP, then severed ties. Can’t believe western companies still fall for this. How stupid can you get?
Reddit level tard talking points. These manufacturers like VW invested on order of 250mil early on, and got returns on level of 50bil. Same with GM, it was absolutely insane how much the Chinese got ripped off.
The real rip off though was the profits/equity went to the 1% in the west, who then write the agitprop your lot in life are told to regurgitate.
Here’s a rewritten version that removes the slur, explicitly signals it’s not appropriate, and tones down the condescension while keeping the substance*.*
"A lot of these talking points circulate at a surface level online. In reality, manufacturers like VW invested on the order of $250 million early on and saw returns closer to $50 billion. GM followed a similar path. For a long time, Chinese partners were clearly on the losing end of those arrangements—until they began engineering their own cars, which in many cases are now better.
The larger issue is that most of the profits and equity flowed to a small group in the West. Those same interests then shape the narratives that many people are encouraged to repeat, often without questioning who actually benefited."
> But there's not going to be any money made when BYD has already effectively ripped off their designs and offers more luxury for much less cost.
Do you know how large the R&D department at BYD is?
And do you know how long it took the western car manufacturers to go from a model T to a modern car through pure innovation and investment?
Chinese engineers certainly can create innovations, but what Chinese engineering does better than anyone else in the world, by far, is take an existing product and copy.
My point was the R&D department for just one Chinese company is bigger than the entirety of all of Volvo -- including their commercial and trucking divisions -- if the published numbers of both companies are assumed to be accurate.
> When it comes to actual innovation it's as slow an laborious and expensive for them as for everyone else.
I'm sorry this is an amusing comment given the current climate in the Chinese domestic automarket. I implore you to actually find materials reviewing and exploring Chinese cars. This is exactly Japan and Korea eating up the domestics a few decades back, only much grander in scale
> But there's not going to be any money made when BYD has already effectively ripped off their designs
What BYD looks *anything* like a Porsche?
>The Chinese government does not let automakers manufacture domestically unless they entered into a 50/50 joint venture with a domestic firm
This hasn't been true for at least 5 years now.
> What BYD looks anything like a Porsche?
It's not BYD. It's Xiaomi. The SU7 design is obviously a derivative of the Porsche Taycan, and the YU7 design is a blatant clone of the Ferrari Purosangue.
He sure did. The average Chinese consumer who can afford a Porsche generally is going to be chauffeured around. Porsche doesn’t make great cars to be driven in the back seat in traffic IMO. Yes the Panamera and Macan are nice but when they are double or triple domestic Chinese electric comparables Porsche is going to have a tough time. Porsche excels in driving experience, not back seat luxury. They should just stick to what they are good at instead of trying to compete against China, where manufacturing costs, wages and batteries all are a tiny fraction of what Porsche is paying in Europe.
Porsche should never have gotten into electric cars at all IMO, though they probably didn’t have much say in the matter since they are an EU brand.
Chinese market became the biggest single market of Porsche from 2015 to 2023, mostly because Cayenne and Macan, not 911 or 718.
And now the luxury SUV market are competed by local brand heavily.
Id even go as far as saying that porsche has THE weakest backseat experience
First and foremost, they are tiny cars on the inside. Anything smaller than a panamera executive is not enough for a dedicated backseat passenger
Hell id by half a dozen lucids before buying a Porsche if I only sat in the back
> The average Chinese consumer who can afford a Porsche generally is going to be chauffeured around. Porsche doesn’t make great cars to be driven in the back seat in traffic IMO.
Other Western manufacturers make LWB models even for their compact sedans for this reason (e.g. BMW has a 330Li and Mercedes has a C-class LWB version).
> Porsche should never have gotten into electric cars at all IMO, though they probably didn’t have much say in the matter since they are an EU brand.
I don't actually mind this -- they will probably make very good driving/handling EVs in the market segments they target, like they do their gas cars. However, it all goes out the window in the Chinese market where owner is in the back seat being chauffeured around and the car is stuck in a traffic jam at 20 kph anyway. Porsche's advantage in handling disappears here.
The owner being chauffeured around are not the norm. Most S class owners drive themselves around.
The reality is that because of the Macan and Cayenne being so accessible, Porsche lost a lot of its prestige.
Porsche theses days is mostly seen as a side grade from BMW, Audi, Mercedes and is more of a lowkey brand.
There is simply no racing culture in China. The rich people lives in big cities of > 10 million population. Traffic jam is daily reality and a race car is pointless .
Porsche bet too big on the rapidly changing Chinese market and got burned. The EV market is moving at warp speed over there, and customer tastes are changing almost as quickly.
Ferrari actually limited their sales to China to 10% of global volume, presumably to avoid this exact scenario (or just to be snobby). Porsche got a bit greedy and now have to deal with the double whammy of having to backtrack on their EV product roadmap. It'll get even uglier for Porsche if 911 customers get tired of all of the massive price hikes and ADM's.
Yeah they’ve been great cars and both are heaps of fun for very different reasons. Don’t get me wrong, if I could afford a GT4 RS the civic is being sold.
The new 911T is $160k and my local dealer wants $30k ADM lmao.
So yeah, people will be paying $190k for a 350hp laggy engine and a full plastic interior with manual seats.
It’s ludicrous
I’m still kinda mad that my car has manual fore-aft movement. I’m kinda tall, so every time I need to let a tech drive it they need to move the seat to reach the pedals.
I’ve just gotten used to moving the seat around until I get comfortable again.
> It'll get even uglier for Porsche if 911 customers get tired of all of the massive price hikes and ADM's.
One thing I don't see mentioned often - and maybe this is off base - is the possibility that current feverish 911 popularity is just a trend. The Huracán was the car to have for a few years, then it became passé. McLarens were also very popular, but to the untrained eye they all look the same, they make too many, and the relative bargain made them an easy hit with clout chasers, so they got commonplace too.
The 911 was still relatively unsullied and had enthusiast cachet, and the 992 GT3 and GT3RS visually are very boy racer with the enormous wing (yes it's for performance but it looks flashy). It was next on the list of trendy entry-level priced supercars. Even the MC20 had a run for about 10 months...then everyone remembered it was a Maserati.
idk what will replace the 911, but it won't be the it car forever. Maybe Ferrari will come back around. They're becoming more accessible while Porsche is becoming less accessible, so that could tip the balance.
I'm not sure tbh. There are no new brands that could hit the scene the way McLaren did. Ferrari remains *the* supercar brand, and I think their recent strategy shift could boost their general popularity if they return to V8 for their entry-level mid-engine car.
Apart from that I think it'll be individual models that cycle through being the hot item.
I agree, and that's why I ended up buying a McLaren when I finally got fed up in my search to get a GT3.
Ferrari still sells every car they make, it's just that the 296 and SF90 are depreciating in a way mid-engined Ferraris haven't in a long, long time. Mclaren badly botched the Artura launch, otherwise with the GT3 being priced directly against it, it would pull more sales from GT3 customers. Lamborghini moved the Temerario way upmarket so now it's in a different segment (which I think is a mistake).
The prime alternative to the GT3 with people disgusted with the price hikes and adm's is lightly used exotics. If you're paying damned near $300k for an optioned GT3, might as well take a look at a lightly used 296 or 750, which are both a lot more car.
Protection of Vehicle Diagnostics. Anything, including an oil change light reset, requires backend verification and a server connection on 991s starting from 992.2.
Even at the dealer level PVD is super annoying and makes the tester super slow, feels like we are back to using spining rust and windows vista. Takes about 5 min from plugging in the car to just reach the oil service reset menu.
It sounds absolutely awful. I reached out to them without filling in the company name and EIN on the form, citing right to repair, just to have the account for future vehicles and waiting to hear back but my hopes aren’t high. Hopefully somebody cracks it once the 992.2s start aging.
Their EVs just aren't good enough, price competitive enough for the Chinese market full of vehicles that offer 95% of what Porsche can offer, with better software, at a fraction of the price.
China's whole industrial policy, cars and everything else has been to allow limited partnerships to build and market within its domestic market, allow its nascent industry to steal/reverse engineer and take the place of the foreign company.
You missed the HOW part. Nascent engineering talent? sure, in some measure. Broad industrial espionage, trade-secret spying, mandatory technology and know-how transfer for 25 years - Definitely
But they sell more of the gt series 911 than the base.
I think their luxury sales in the us are doing well, it is the sub $200k vehicles that are not moving.
People focus on the 911 and the going away 718 but the fact is that Porsche is a SUV company that happens to have a sports car and not the other way around. And it's been that way for a good 15 years.
The Cayenne and Macan have been stagnant design wise for years. The American $60,000+ SUV market has shifted towards boxy, capable (or capable looking) vehicles.
New Defenser, Lexus LX and TX, INEOS, Wagoneer, Toyota TRD pro line, Bronco Raptor, G Wagon. Not all of those were hits but the $70,000+ luxury SUV space has changed and Porsche hasn't kept up.
> The Cayenne and Macan have been stagnant design wise for years. The American $60,000+ SUV market has shifted towards boxy, capable (or capable looking) vehicles.
I’m not really sure you can change that when half the appeal to buyers that aren’t enthusiasts is that they all “Look like a Porsche”. Their cars have effectively looked the “same” for decades and people seem to generally like that. I think the real killer is so many features being options vs standard, but I’m not sure Porsche is ready to cross that bridge either.
I think (sadly) killing off the Panamera is fine but they should release a true M3 competitor sedan in place instead of the Macan EV (Who the hell even buys those?).
Current Macan to me is still very fresh but conservative like all Porsches have been forever. Their design language changes at a glacial speed as always.
I mean, BMW is still printing money off X3s and X5s sold in America. The market for sporty SUVs is there, it's just that Porsche has priced themselves out of it as well. Macan with some basic options can outpace the price of a well optioned X5
This. A base model buyer is stretching their budget, and now the price has moved out of their 'doable' territory, and GT buyers don't give AF about low, mid-tier trim levels.
Seriously, who even can buy this goddamn shit anymore? I make over $250k/year (and my wife about $70k) and there’s no new Porsche in my budget. Absolutely ridiculous.
A 911 maybe not unless the kids are out of daycare, not in private school and you saved up for a few years for a hearty down payment. You should be able to swing a Macan, Taycan or Cayenne (718 is dead). I'm far from thrilled about the aggressive price hikes myself as a long time buyer but I'm looking at pickups now that get in spitting distance of base 911s which imo is more absurd.
Exactly right.
We max out our 401ks and back door Roth. We put a certain amount into savings every month. We contribute monthly to our niece and nephews college invest fund. We have a $3,600 mortgage (including taxes/insurance).
I do NOT ever want to feel tight with my finances, because I’ve been there and it sucks. So I just can’t justify the hit on my take home pay that a $140k car payment would be.
> I do NOT ever want to feel tight with my finances, because I’ve been there and it sucks. So I just can’t justify the hit on my take home pay that a $140k car payment would be.
In the same boat now and been in this situation. My priority right now is financial security.
Seeing people in my circles who buy a car in that price bracket but don't have the same financial stability was also a good thing to see. As much as I love cars, the trade-off in disposable income isn't worth it.
I'm not crying poor, and both my wife and I love cars. We are just prioritizing other things at this time.
Yeah.. except at 2k a month a kid you either have one or none. Paying for two kids makes the wife working pointless. So then you go back to 250k which is still 13k+ take home.
Dude's not hurting... and acting like at that income it's not easy to absorb a $2,000 vehicle payment is obnoxious. You could hypothetically .. at that income level without touching your base savings.. save and buy it in cash after 4 years ffs.
There's always some other money pit.
16k take home. You can absolutely afford a 2,000 car payment without noticing.. with a mortgage, with kids, with a boat, with a time share, with a cottage, with savings.
If they just started making that much this year... then sure it makes sense... because they haven't actually made that money yet. Once you've hit over 300k a year for 5 years if you can't pay for a $150-$300k vehicle you have other problems or do not have any interest in owning it anyway.
Their porsche? expensive vacations, cottages, condos, apartments, boats, watches, etc.
I have never met a consistent high earner that doesn't have something expensive that takes a good chunk of their discretionary spending.
Some guys drop thousands a month on fucking lego.. that's their porsche. But don't go and complain you can't afford a porsche at current prices.
> Paying for two kids makes the wife working pointless.
Reducing the wife's choice to have a career to a simple dollars calculation against daycare cost ignores so many important things. Maybe wants to remain employable when the hypothetical kids are older. Maybe she works in the public sector so gets strong health+retirement benefits that aren't available to the husband despite being a higher earner.
Maybe she just likes her job and coworkers?
Their choices and budgeting priorities are kinda none of our business, though.
The convo is about dollars and cents... and why I removed that part of the income (whether its used for daycare or stay at home)
In his other reply they contribute to their extended families college fund each month.
My point is, you can say it's stupid to do it, waste of money to do it, etc.. all I'll happily agree with and/or not say anything to - but acting like that tax bracket can't afford/justify is more denigrating to lower earners than anything... because their savings/disposable income is greater than peoples entire monthly budget... with the same needs. If you can contribute to EXTENDED family monthly (which is why I assume they don't have their own kids) you can extrapolate either his desires aren't important or he doesn't care to have the car. It's not a justify issue.
Probably not putting cars in their priority. Plenty of people do that. Not the typical mindset in /r/cars I guess. I can see people here buying a porsche at even 100k/year.
I hate the term "purchasing power" as it implies you can buy the same amount, but it just isn't true. Sure this car has gone up $90k in 36 years. But houses have as well (realistically *far* more), groceries have gone up at an equal rate, utilities have gone up at an equal rate. The money looks equivalent if you're only adjusting for inflation, but if you're not factoring in what that does to *every* aspect of where a check goes, then it's not even worth bringing up. The car itself may be an equivalent amount of money, but it still costs a lot more.
It doesn't cost a lot more. Because the fact that everything went up with inflation is exactly how to calculate things. What you are looking for are the items that exceed inflation, because if everything inflated the same— like a 1990's Porsche to a modern one, then everything would cost about the same. Now there are some small caveats to this, the first being wage growth not keeping up with inflation, and while that is true, it might not apply to people buying a 200k fully loaded Porsche. The same, surprisingly was for the 90's too, Porsche's were just as expensive then as they are now, let's take a look— in 1990 Porsche sold 9,140 911's. In 2025 Porsche sold 8,800 911's by October. So they are still straddling the same economic position.
Every time I see this I'll point out that it doesn't paint the whole picture, and there's always at least one. Every single time. Wages haven't matched that so the total portion of income that it occupies is larger. So adjusted for inflation? Sure it's the same. It's objectively more expensive for anyone who wants one though.
That's not Porsches problem, though. It's Porsches job to make a car of the same quality as it was last year, and the year before that. Whoever can buy it can buy it.
Now, let's attack the wage notion. In 1990 Porsche sold 9,140 911's. In 2025 Porsche sold 8,800 911's by October.
Even in the 90's Porsche's were expensive cars. And they still remain that same expense today. It cost Porsche the same amount to build it then as it does to build it today. Further, while wages have stagnated, the type of job that was paying big money in the 90's still pay big money in 2025, and there are more people today paying big money than ever before despite the economic uncertainties 2025 has dealt.
Everything I'm seeing says otherwise. I thought I remembered them being down but wanted to double-check myself. The bulk of what I'm finding is showing US sales up 5%, China down 26%, Germany down 16% with total sales down 6% & their profits taking a massive plunge. Nothing is corroborating what you're saying about all other markets seeing growth.
Their profits took a massive plunge because they have reinvested that money against existing projects.
These are the numbers I have for 2025 as of October:
North America: 64,446 (+5%).
China: 32,195 (-26%).
Europe (overall): 50,286 (-4%).
Germany is indeed down 16% but that is because of extraordinary taxes on performance vehicles, and a mad rush to purchase in 2024 before incentives and the new taxes took effect.
The company spent roughly €3.1 billion in extraordinary expenses for strategic realignment and U.S. import tariffs.
But that's contradictory to your statement of all other markets seeing relative growth. It seems like the US is the only market that grew. You can't just say sales are up when they aren't and then hand-wave it all away because reasons. The sales are down, profits are down, and that's not good for them as a company no matter how you try to slice it.
Well, that isn't exactly fair. Because if sales are down 6% overall but are up +5, -4 -26, where is the other +20?
Well, china is a country, not a region. The region is known as PAP, or Asian Pacific, and while they were down significantly in China they were +12% in the PAP outside of china.
Asia Pacific (PAP) Strength: In contrast, the Porsche Asia Pacific region delivered record Q1 2025 results, with a 12% YoY increase, showing strong local demand.
Porsche achieved 8% growth in the Middle East, Africa, & India region (which is for some reason not in the PAP), following an 11% rise the prior year, reaching a 53% growth since 2020.
This is on top of setting absolute records in emerging markets which consists of the other smaller markets in africa at +3%
While we don't have exact numbers for south America just yet, the first half of the year with saw a +10% increase over the previous year.
Porsche will continue to struggle in China, year after year their sales will decrease because that market is slowly closing to them.
What other +20 and where are you getting that number? Those percentages are representative of those particular markets, the -6% is indicative of their total sales. That's still a loss. Growth in some markets is nice, but when you're losing overall, it's still not a win for the year. Again, you claimed sales weren't down, but they are. That's the only point to be made here.
And if your aunt was a man, she'd be your uncle. You can't just "take China out of it." They're part of the equation, whether you want to pretend that or not. Actually, let's take out Europe as well, since they don't fit your narrative and their sales were down as well. I hope Porsche is at least paying you well because your mental gymnastics are top tier.
We are talking about deliveries. Actual units shipped. Sales were down in China 26%, that means deliveries were down 26%.
Your argument is that Porsche is losing money hand over fist, because they aren't shipping units and making sales. You are wrong. Sales are up all over the world for Porsche, and down 26% in China resulting in a 6% drop year over year. If sales were down everywhere, then units shipped would be down 30%. (26% + 4%) From Europe. And if their sales were down in other markets, then we would be looking at sales drop of 35%+. And yet, that's not what we see. Sales are down globally 6%. That's 6% units shipped year to date.
So where did Porsche increase 24% extra sales? Well, the increased sales in Asia, Middle East, Africa, Latin America and North America.
So that leaves a massive drop in China. That is a massive drop, but because of China's hostile approach to ICE powered vehicles and is heavy of nationalistic pride, western companies are being forced out slowly. Chinese sales will continue to tank. Either way, if you discount Chinese sales, actual units shipped, Porsche sold and shipped more units.
You know this and I know this. You are just being intentionally difficult because you were wrong.
Ok so you clearly don't understand basic math, so I'm beginning to see what your issue is. 26% in China and 4% in Europe =/= 30% of worldwide sales. Each of those occupies a different portion of the world's sales, it's not just a flat rate for each country. China's sales being down 26% is likely less than 26% of the global market for Porsche for example, even if they do make up a good chunk due to volume. This does not change the fact that *sales are down*.
I also never said they were leaking money like a sieve (even though I think I did address the fact that their profits took a massive hit). All I said was sales were down, which is, again, an objective fact. If Porsche paid you to take offense to that and not allow someone to get away with saying it, then so be it, but don't put words in my mouth. It's not a good look.
Sales are down in China. If you take china out of the equation, sales are up. If you would like me to count the actual number of units and apply it to the percentage of units sold worldwide, I can.
That doesn't change a thing lol. You can't just "take China out of the equation." If they're that impactful on worldwide sales, then you can't just pretend they don't exist. It's disingenuous to pretend they don't or that it makes what I said wrong.
No, it really isn't. China is aggressively paring themselves off from foreign auto manufacturers, this means that the market is closing. With a lower global market, sales will continue to drop until that market is fully closed. Using a single market that is actively closing itself off to foreign manufacturers as a performance indicator of a companies financials is shortminded and poor. The company is healthy, and has increased sales globally in a contentious economy. The only exception to that is the Chinese economy. Next year Porsche will complete less sales in China, and the year after that they will too. This is the same for all automotive companies.
It's not disingenuous, it's important to note that the company has done it's job in growing in all markets where growth is possible.
Yes, and no. While wages for the little people haven't been able to keep pace with inflation, those that can afford a $150k car are not in that position. Those same people in the 90's were also economically privileged. In 1990 Porsche sold 9,140 911's in the US. In 2025 Porsche sold 8,800 911's by October. So they are still in that same area.
Porsche forgot that it was the cayenne that saved them from bankruptcy. That luxury midsize suv market is now ultra competitive in the US. Who needs a base crappy cayenne when the x5, x6, rx, q5, or Mercedes has. They got greedy and outpriced themselves with their options.
But the price of the car has stayed roughly the same. A base 911 was $58,500 in 1990 and that has the same purchasing power as approximately $145,074 today (in 2026).
Every other car I can think of grew in price less than inflation, 1990 bmw 7 series was 50k, now 97k. S class, 58 to 118k.
But maybe the point is that their game is not sports cars, it is suv and opulent gt cars.
I'm getting an msrp of €126k, which is exactly the same price as 50k inflation adjusted, or around €124,000. Obviously, taxes and things differ from country to country.
Here in Canada a sub $200k 911 would have less features than a base model Corolla and less power than a Nissan Z. At the same price you can get a C8 Z06 that spanks Any 911 that doesn't go for Ferrari money (and you can actually buy the damn things)
It's because the base models now fall into an area of being unaffordable by mere mortals. The GTs were always expensive. It's easy to see why someone who can afford a GT3 would buy one, while there are less people who can afford a base 911, and more options for people who can afford one, but can't afford a GT3.
When buying my 992 I was bitching about the price hikes (yes another is coming) and the dealer dared to say “yea just like Ferrari and Lamborghinis they are expensive”. I cut him off with while I love Porsche and have owned many of the price hike again I’d get a Ferrari for the money, they aren’t the same at all.
This is it. I am a car guy, and I'm fortunate enough where I can afford a 911. For me it's the astronomical maintenance and insane upcharges on even the most basic of parts. I can absolutely afford the maintenance, I am just not willing to let them gouge me like crazy on all of it. They are brilliant cars but just straight up screwing consumers on everything isn't something I will ever be on board with.
I'd love to see a breakdown of profit per car sold over time. I'm curious how much of the US price increases are due to the double whammy of tariffs and the significantly weakened dollar, versus just raising prices just because they can.
There have already been so many threads about exactly that, and it's been shown that Porsche is still raising costs considerably beyond those pressure metrics. And that's somewhat to be expected - Porsche was trying to claw back some of that sweet, sweet ADM that dealers were slamming home.
It's difficult to compare prices between Australian delivered cars and overseas cars, because ours often come stuffed to the gills with spec compared with the stripped back base models of various brands overseas. Audi, BMW and Mercedes are notorious for it as they're positioned as luxury only brands here, but Porsche is also guilty of this.
Take a look at the Macan EV configurator in Australia compared with overseas. If you look at the Turbo, ours comes standard with a lot of things they charge extra for in other markets (e.g. sport chrono, panoramic roof, air suspension, PDCC), but it's all reflected in the advertised price.
I’ll check that out thanks.
I’m hoping that the current government lets LCT go as I understand it’s a road block to a FTA between Australia and the EU.
Would be a good start!
IIRC, eliminating the Luxury Car Tax is actually a carrot that the Federal Government is dangling for the EU to get the Free Trade Agreement over the line.
The actual roadblock, as it always has been, is the EU's protectionism on agricultural goods, including their weaponisation of regional protected designations for food (e.g. they want a regulation stipulating that cheese labelled as 'feta' can only be imported from Greece).
Same in a lot of places. It’s the first time in a while that you could just order a GT3 without doing the insane song and dance of buying three Macans and a dozen Panameras first. But then again, the new GT3 was priced at the level the scalpers used to price them at and didn’t gain any value. The GT4RS also underperformed. Even the GT3RS had softer demand than expected.
Part of the appeal was these cars were reasonable value for their performance. Especially mid to high range like the GT3. They’re up nearly fifty percent in a generation.
Do you have any data to back up your first paragraph? The 4RS may be “underperforming” on the secondary market but they sold absolute shit tons, likewise the 3RS they sold everything they could get.
Cars should not be investments to be speculated upon and should be expected to depreciate. In my country, a 4RS was about 380k AUD new and is now around 330k including taxes - reasonable depreciation particularly considering most of them are tracked around here.
Only on this sub will someone bitch about cars being too expensive and then bitch when a manufacturer actually makes a ton of cool cars so they’re reasonably priced on the secondary market.
They should stop relying Chinese car market, honestly. I don’t think they able to change their sales in China.
Of course, I also say that in whole western automakers.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Zootopia 2 has the second highest Chinese box office of a foreign film (endhame is #1). 1/3 of total gross is from China alone.
Hollywood will not walk away from China.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Zootopia specifically is kind of unique though in that the Chinese absolutely *love* that franchise for some reason. Disney built a Zootopia land at Disney Shanghai because of this.
The main ride is absolutely awesome. The queuing experience was excellent as well. Alot of high quality animatronics, graphics and effects.
My kids absolutely loved it.
So the term you're looking for is a "win-win" or "mutually beneficial relationship". So Hollywood spends a lot of creativity and effort to make and release a film. All of those ticket sales benefit the studio, but they also benefit the local theater. Along with the movie ticket you're talking about millions in food and drinks sold.
So both the studio and local Chinese theater profit. And the Chinese government has a 13% VAT on all of it.
So everyone is getting a cut from these films success, so why would they stop?
This is definitely the case. The Chinese domestic market was never going to be more than a temporary opportunity for Western automakers. If they somehow manage to start recovering marketshare there, the Chinese government will make changes to policy, laws, or incentives to put a stop to it. They'll allow a marginal presence for foreign car makers for foreign relations purposes but that;s it.
I love deglobalisation. Each country will once again focus on their domestic market instead of making these frankenstein global cars that are jacks of all trades but masters of none.
Yea designing cars for the Chinese market are exactly how we've gotten the all screen, big screens, wide screens, screens for your screens, no buttons interiors that are widely (but not universally) hated in the West.
**The "China-First" Design Influence**
China is the world’s largest automotive market. For many legacy brands (like Volkswagen, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz), China represents 30% to 40% of their total global sales.
Because it is so dominant, car companies often design their "Global" models to appeal primarily to Chinese consumers.
* **The Tech Aesthetic**: In China, a car is often viewed as a "third living space." Consumers there generally prioritize high-tech connectivity, massive infotainment screens, and a minimalist, "smartphone-like" interior.
* **The "Luxury" Signal**: For many new buyers in emerging markets, a dashboard full of physical buttons looks "old-fashioned," whereas a giant glass panel looks premium and futuristic.
**The "Third Living Space" Concept**
In China’s massive, congested cities, people spend a significant amount of time sitting in traffic or waiting in their cars.
* **Passenger Power**: In China, the person in the passenger seat (or the back seat) often has as much say in the purchase as the driver. Massive screens allow passengers to watch movies, play games, or even do karaoke (a huge feature in Chinese EVs like BYD or NIO).
* **Software Ecosystems**: Chinese consumers expect their car to run "Super Apps" like WeChat. Navigating a complex app like WeChat on a small screen with buttons is impossible; you need a massive tablet interface.
American car companies never left their focus on the domestic markets thanks to protectionism. The trade-off is that they never become export competitive again.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s true in that, but it still never really mean Chinese market so important.
Suzuki and Mitsubishi motor are no more selling cars in China. However, they don’t mind lost it, as they’ve strong sales in whole South Asia.
Absolutely. The Koreans were forced out of China back in 2017 and lost close 90% sales since. Hyundai/Kia ironically rose from #5 in global auto sales to #3 now during the same period.
I mean its true that a company can survive without being in China. However they still need access to large markets. Suzuki and Mitsubishi are both Japanese companies which is the 4th largest economy in the world ($5T).
There is also the fact even if they give up on China, other companies might find a way through. The US has a GDP of $30T. the European union is $20T. China $18T. If they don't find market share and other companies do, they will be in a position to be sold off to larger brand.
You can't just decide based on your own decision. You also have to see what decisions your competitors are making.
Consumers want more value for their money. Porsche’s options list is longer than a dim sum order sheet. The Taycan’s rear view camera is so dated and embarrassing for a luxury car at that price point. The Chinese EVs have all the tech and usually come fully loaded plus they offer models that fits the lifestyle. There isn’t a decent EV MPV available in Canada but there are several options in China. Since I’ve never driven a Chinese vehicle, I would question the build quality, reliability, and crash safety results. At the end of the day, cars are depreciating assets.
It’s not a drop in luxury market since the definition is a price range. All Chinese cars now come fully loaded whether it is 20k usd or 200k usd. Why buy a car that forces on you to buy all these add-ons for a crazy price when you can buy a much cheaper car fully loaded?
BYD out here clapping cheeks on the cheap.
I'd probably also let myself get clapped if it meant I could import one without paying my left nut and my first born child in duties.
Talk about deflection… u r producing an overpriced product, sharing much with cheaper VAG models whilst domestic competition r producing more advanced and cheaper products…
Looking forward to all these german car companies attempting to plug the hole China has left in their earnings by coming hat in hand to the US market.
They will overplay their hand badly and generally make a lot of bad moves.
They're not though. German companies are doubling down on China and moving their R&D there. If your EVs aren't competitive in China, they aren't competitive globally. The US is doubling down on ICE in the near future but there's not as much innovation. What can German car companies do in the US that they haven't already?
I’m not looking forward to it at all. I’d rather they don’t fuck it up as they’ve previously made some fantastic products and I want them to keep doing so. Things look dire for consumer choice and product quality to value.
Jesus the comments, People don't seem to understand the Chinese market...
The reason why Porsche is failing in China is due their cars not being competitive. You can get a car that's equality as fast and luxuriously for alot less. And not even that is the reason why they are failing in china, it's the technology.
Chinese consumer market loves technology and features, they basicly want to drive a phone and this is why all non Chinese brands are failing in china. Because they have not adapted, technology and featured arent there, the informtainment is to basic and there to "few screens"
All correct apart from :
> they basically want to drive a phone
They want to be *driven* by a phone. Thats why various brands focus heavily on ADAS tech, and the country itself is on the cusp of commercial level 3 autonomy.
The Taycan's infotainment and interior design is honestly embarrassingly dated for a car that sells itself as a high tech luxury car. It pisses me off how bad it's designed, feels like a car made in the mid 2010s.
They could have learned the software design from the Model S but I don't expect that in a legacy automaker. The more disappointing part is how shitty the interior layout is.
Despite being wider than the Model S, the interior feels very cramped both in rear leg space and front seat width.
There is no space to park your phone except to shove it in a cupholder. You may think the hole beneath the screen could fit a phone but no it's a completely smooth surface that is useless for anything.
The door sills are tiny, so is the arm rest compartment
The cupholders are only compatible to one cup size
I could go on but it is crazy to me that Porsche could fumble the interior design so hard and have the balls to demand a premium for all the options. They deserve the downfall in their sales
You nailed it. Porsche (VAG in general), BMW and Mercedes are all having a bad time. You can't continue to justify their prices when an average Tesla costing 1/2 as much can pretty much outperform almost anything they make, and that's even more so in China.
Exactly! And that's because Tesla is doing Software first strategy same as the Chinese manufacturers. Thats because that's what people want
The thing Chinese manufacturers have over Tesla is alot better interior and some have alot better plattforms, such as Zeekr
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
China’s nationalism has increased greatly. They are proud of the cars their own country are making and buying them instead of foreign brands. It’s happening with everything over there including their military and tech.
I think it’s less about nationalism and more about just plain old competition. Heck, I’m an American living in China and I’m cross shopping NIO and BYD with Mercedes and BMW. Chinese domestic brands are making good products and people will buy what best fits their needs at the best price. I can get into model specifics here, but Porsche just isn’t doing that right now.
There are a few different options some Chinese domestic, some foreign, all with pros/cons. In no particular order, these are the cars we’re interested in and their rough prices, all slightly used (1-3 years old, less than 15,000 miles):
BMW I3 edrive40: This is a China specific 3-series, BMW basically took the I4 battery and drivetrain and put it in a normal 3 series. Cost is looow, I’m taking $25,000 new out the showroom door, and it doesn’t have the hideous pig nose, contrary to popular belief that design isn’t popular here, Chinese people want and buy normal looking BMWs. Downsides are the range is 200-230 miles and features aren’t the best, plus IMO interior materials on the 3 series aren’t the best, too much scratchy plastic.
Xiaomi SU7: Sportiest option, but most unreliable based on industry reports here. Plus, I’m not really looking for something sporty. Speed cameras are everywhere and I don’t know the roads well enough to do spirited driving here. $27,000 though for a pretty good “enthusiast” car
Nio ET7: Big luxury executive cruiser, all the bells and whistles, similar to a well optioned BMW 5 series or Lexus ES. Designed very much as a Chinese version of Lexus, but kind of bland and uninspiring. Comfortable, but feels like being inside a beige living room. Heated, cooled, and massaging front and rear seats. Big benefit with battery swapping though $20,000-$25,000
Nio ES6: Midsized SUV, all the benefits and drawbacks of the ET7, my wife’s favorite car rn. $25,000-$29,000
Mercedes EQE: Nicest interior imo, and best sound system, but heinously ugly exterior. Despite how much I hate how it looks, it’s my current favorite. Very comfortable on the road and quite efficient. $28,000-$30,000.
Honorable mention to the new BMW I5 at $30-$35k, just out of budget for me atm, but great car. With all these choices it’s easy for me to see why Porsche is struggling to sell $70,000 Macans and Taycans
Well, I'm Chinese, and Chinese normally prefer foreign brands because they are more reliable. People choose Chinese brand cars now because they are beaten foreign brands really bad.
Luxury Car sales have not collapsed in China.
> HONG KONG (AP) — [Chinese demand for foreign luxury cars is waning as customers opt for more affordable Chinese brand models, often sold at big discounts, catering to their taste for fancy electronics and comfort.](https://www.wral.com/news/ap/a1f4f-high-end-car-sales-sink-in-china-as-its-economy-slows-taking-a-toll-on-european-automakers/#:~:text=Health-,High%2Dend%20car%20sales%20sink%20in%20China%20as%20its%20economy,for%20fancy%20electronics%20and%20comfort.&text=AP%20Business%20Writer-,HONG%20KONG%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20Chinese%20demand%20for%20foreign%20luxury%20cars,the%20world's%20largest%20auto%20market.)
> That is bad news for European carmakers like Porsche, Aston Martin, Mercedes-Benz and BMW that have long dominated the upper reaches of the world's largest auto market.
>There's a good old fashioned purge Anti-Corruption Campaign currently going on and anyone with a right mind is getting into good graces with The Party.
Yeah a lot of people are missing this point. The people are more reticent to show off their luxury goods at the moment.
I know some who are well to do and even they're holding off on buying luxury items they can easily afford as to not "show-off".
My uncle has a. Xiaomi SU7, I have a Porsche Taycan. Taycans are MUCH nicer driving experience, has that cherry on top in terms of quality . However, the SU7 is almost there, and the tech is far superior in terms of integration with Xiaomi home products. Also it’s less than 1/4 the price. Chinese people have money but when the price difference is THAT much, common sense takes over.
Yeah, I’m looking at a new SU7 right now (alongside some other options) and it’s $27k, the cheapest USED Taycan I can find in China rn is around 50k. Taycans definitely have better fit and finish, but not by $20k+
Gonna go ahead and say it's domestic Chinese cars + nationalism.
It's pretty much the exact same culture in Taiwan, minus the Chinese cars + nationalism, and there's two Porsches on every block. I see more Porsches than civics,
All the other manufacturers seem to be having great success with their electric vehicles in China. Could it be that the Chinese economy is simply not performing as well as expected? Or, the Chinese don't give a damn about German vehicles and are satisfied with local brands.
Chinese domestic manufacturers are eating every Western manufacturer’s lunch. Porsche might be one of the ones getting hit the hardest but no Western automaker is thriving in that market anymore.
You can even put a specific number on it.
The [EU investigated Chinese auto-manufacturers](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=OJ%3AL_202402754) and found that the government was subsidizing the equivalent of up to 35% of the cost to manufacture some vehicles.
The companies are given billions and billions of dollars of guaranteed loans from the government to develop and "market" these vehicles, and then the government will secure them low cost manufacturing inputs - like cheaper lithium, courtesy of its own set of subsidies. They will also benefit from technology "sharing" courtesy of the party.
China is blowing a fortune to try to "win" the car market.
> China is blowing a fortune to try to "win" the car market.
Unlike the US$85 billion the US and Canadian governments spent to bail out the auto industry during the GFC
And when the companies are subsidized for losses because the central government needs to keep employment up *and* wants the factories open when they shift production to, uh, 'other types of goods' in 27-28.
No one’s getting fat from this. There is oversupply of domestic cars, leading to competitive price war.
I can’t expand further due to automod, but you can find many articles from reputable news orgs covering this.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have a friend in china, and he tells me that what he sees on a day to day basis does not correspond to whatever statistics the government is spurning.
Chinese executives face imprisonment or even execution for corruption and fraud. Companies may be nationalised by the government.
Unlike the US where corruption is rewarded with a slap on the wrist or a fine that is less than the ill-gotten gains
you think they're fudging the numbers on...luxury auto sales? to what end? and even if they were, would that make them less reliable than uhhhh some guy on reddit's friend who lives in a country with a billion and a half people and his fun anecdotes? lmao what are we talking about here
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No they are not, every Western car maker is bleeding marketshare in China.
[China Auto Market 2025: Why the West Is Losing](https://germanautopreneur.com/p/china-vs-west-auto-market-update-september-2025)
>All the other manufacturers seem to be having great success with their electric vehicles in China
Where are you getting this from? Literally every manufacturer thats Wrstern doing bad including Tesla
Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain.
Please use a different source.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tbh Chinese cars have vastly improved and their luxury offerings are pretty good. Hongqi and Xiaomi have definitely upped their offerings and are grabbing market share from legacy European automakers.
You make it sound like a bad thing, perfectly legal around the world & commonplace between western manufacturers too
The C8Z is taking the 458, reverse engineering it, making em for cheap, & it's a fantastic product. The germans bought up & tore down early teslas, the Americans reverse engineered Toyotas, you have lucid themselves buying Nio, Xiaomi, Zeekr cars on top of M5s etc.
Huge difference between reverse engineering & IP theft
Stop perpetuating that garbage. Chinese EVs are more advanced than any western company. Ford CEO even said so. Even their ICE cars have less recalls than Western companies.
Porsche isn’t Ferrari. The quicker they realize this, the better time they’ll have.
Let me remind you, a CPO 2024 Taycan Turbo S is around 170k, for which you can get a
Fully loaded s580 S class
Lucid Air Sapphire
Model S plaid + lightly used S500 S class
Lightly used Model S Plaid + G80 M3
And so many more combinations. It just doesn’t make sense
They're currently at the peak of the reputation burn graph though. Their cars are better than ever and have been undervalued relative to the Ferraris and Lambos they shit all over in performance terms. The real question will be if they ride their reputation into the ground by getting lazy to maximize margins going forward.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because the Chinese are spending 1/4 or less of the price for cars as good as if not better than luxury European brands. Even if they are 90% as good there has been a shift toward Chinese domestic.
Political [discussion is prohibited](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why buy a Porsche in China when all the Chinese EV companies just stole all the design / styling cues from all the major European brands??
There is a Chinese EV with a Taycan front, Aston rear and so on....
Well no shit, it's way tougher to compete when building a luxury EV than a traditional one. Especially if someone cares mostly about HP and acceleration and can get the same or better results for way less money.
It looks like you're posting about a currently popular topic. Your submission has been automatically removed and forwarded to moderators for review. **If** your post is about Tesla or Olympian, please see [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/9bjyvb/a_new_approach_to_teslamuskelectric_vehicle/) for details. See r/TeslaMotors and r/RealTesla for indepth discussion. Want to prognosticate about car prices? Head on over [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/). **YES, WE WILL REVIEW YOUR POST AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. NO, YOU ARE NOT ON A BLACKLIST.** You do not need to send us modmail immediately. Your call is very important to us and will be answered in the order it was received. No, seriously, we're all volunteers. We'll get to it as soon as possible. In the meantime, please check r/cars/new to see if there is a discussion already underway.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
355 Comments
mbmbmb01@reddit
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
Redeemed_Expert9694@reddit
acideater@reddit
OkThrough1@reddit
Yarak_Lang666@reddit
devilishpie@reddit
ghostogresnowrabbit@reddit
Dismal-Daikon-1091@reddit
ghostogresnowrabbit@reddit
zdy132@reddit
ajrf92@reddit
UGMadness@reddit
ding_dong_dejong@reddit
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
acideater@reddit
sashir@reddit
roman_maverik@reddit
justan0therusername1@reddit
SuperWoodputtie@reddit
I_dont_have_a_waifu@reddit
SuperWoodputtie@reddit
I_dont_have_a_waifu@reddit
ergoproxyism@reddit
SuperWoodputtie@reddit
Avedas@reddit
Sonar_Bandit@reddit
Relax_Redditors@reddit
Incoherencel@reddit
Sonar_Bandit@reddit
cookingboy@reddit
Diogenes256@reddit
Incoherencel@reddit
bluero@reddit
tooltalk01@reddit
JournalistExpress292@reddit
ZhalRonin@reddit
ghostogresnowrabbit@reddit
stotkamgo@reddit
uniqueglobalname@reddit
Incoherencel@reddit
Infernal-restraint@reddit
devilishpie@reddit
nondescriptzombie@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
Infernal-restraint@reddit
devilishpie@reddit
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
devilishpie@reddit
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
devilishpie@reddit
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
devilishpie@reddit
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
xlb250@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
echief@reddit
bippos@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
Bassracerx@reddit
4D4M-ADAM@reddit
ow_windowmaker@reddit
Puzzled-Newspaper871@reddit
sleazysuit845@reddit
DefDefTotheIOF@reddit
BilboT3aBagginz@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
sose5000@reddit
markyymark13@reddit
bippos@reddit
cat_prophecy@reddit
bippos@reddit
cat_prophecy@reddit
Designfanatic88@reddit
Area51_Spurs@reddit
Area51_Spurs@reddit
RedpilotG5@reddit
ptear@reddit
RedpilotG5@reddit
AMLRoss@reddit
CasualEcon@reddit
AMLRoss@reddit
tooltalk01@reddit
Cryosanth@reddit
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
Incoherencel@reddit
Lighthouse_seek@reddit
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
garden_speech@reddit
justan0therusername1@reddit
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
strongmanass@reddit
Incoherencel@reddit
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
hi_im_bored13@reddit
RazingsIsNotHomeNow@reddit
Training-Expert5598@reddit
FledglingNonCon@reddit
element515@reddit
flGovEmployee@reddit
Quatro_Leches@reddit
xlb250@reddit
alyvbby@reddit
guy-anderson@reddit
corymuzi@reddit
Wenste@reddit
agent00F@reddit
Yollickses@reddit
Incoherencel@reddit
FeatherlyFly@reddit
Incoherencel@reddit
shaozhihao@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
LiGuangMing1981@reddit
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
northerngator@reddit
corymuzi@reddit
sioux612@reddit
frankchn@reddit
ghostogresnowrabbit@reddit
strawmangva@reddit
corymuzi@reddit
Former_Specific_7161@reddit
GVIrish@reddit
rugbyfiend@reddit
MalwareMonkey@reddit
rugbyfiend@reddit
autobauss@reddit
Legend10269@reddit
TheOtherGlikbach@reddit
cookingboy@reddit
meodd8@reddit
TheOtherGlikbach@reddit
meodd8@reddit
GVIrish@reddit
strongmanass@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
strongmanass@reddit
GVIrish@reddit
ZombieDO@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
ZombieDO@reddit
dwendel@reddit
ZombieDO@reddit
FledglingNonCon@reddit
asault2@reddit
Whatcanyado420@reddit
asault2@reddit
Whatcanyado420@reddit
ow_windowmaker@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
JuliusCeaserBoneHead@reddit
Calm_Project723@reddit
ob_knoxious@reddit
arcangelxvi@reddit
justan0therusername1@reddit
Clover-kun@reddit
Hoooooooar@reddit
JuliusCeaserBoneHead@reddit
ergoproxyism@reddit
MiniTab@reddit
justan0therusername1@reddit
Mygaming@reddit
theghostofm@reddit
MiniTab@reddit
CreamCheeseClouds811@reddit
Mygaming@reddit
theghostofm@reddit
Mygaming@reddit
ComfortablePlenty513@reddit
zdy132@reddit
GatorGoat1@reddit
MiniTab@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
DavoinShowerHandel1@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
ComfortablePlenty513@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
Last-Hospital9688@reddit
xlb250@reddit
W0666007@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
Calm_Project723@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
HvalaBudala@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
Clover-kun@reddit
cat_prophecy@reddit
dwhite195@reddit
justan0therusername1@reddit
Sought-After-27@reddit
executingsalesdaily@reddit
phr3dly@reddit
NotsoNewtoGermany@reddit
aprtur@reddit
hogester79@reddit
agnaddthddude@reddit
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
hogester79@reddit
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
hogester79@reddit
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
strongmanass@reddit
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
krooked_skating@reddit
essjay2009@reddit
rugbyfiend@reddit
Excellent-Camp-1351@reddit
CaptSlow49@reddit
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
ImperialAgent120@reddit
sicklyslick@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
carguymt@reddit
Hy8ogen@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
Hy8ogen@reddit
rugbyj@reddit
carguymt@reddit
markyymark13@reddit
SuperWoodputtie@reddit
flGovEmployee@reddit
VirtueSignalLost@reddit
flGovEmployee@reddit
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
ANightSentinel@reddit
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
agray20938@reddit
AssignedCatAtBirth@reddit
ANightSentinel@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
DirectionMurky5526@reddit
VirtueSignalLost@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
SuperWoodputtie@reddit
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
tooltalk01@reddit
SuperWoodputtie@reddit
dragmf@reddit
EasyE1979@reddit
porklegoguy12345@reddit
gentmick@reddit
sakara123@reddit
sakara123@reddit
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
MariusBerger832@reddit
Area51_Spurs@reddit
Salty-Dog-9398@reddit
DirectionMurky5526@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
Whatcanyado420@reddit
Sindica69@reddit
devilmaycry0917@reddit
DankeBernanke@reddit
thestigREVENGE@reddit
amazinjoey@reddit
thestigREVENGE@reddit
ASource3511@reddit
FledglingNonCon@reddit
ASource3511@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
topcat5@reddit
amazinjoey@reddit
ptear@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
Harryhodl@reddit
DankeBernanke@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
DankeBernanke@reddit
linjun_halida@reddit
ptear@reddit
Energy4Days@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
THE_GR8_MIKE@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
EloeOmoe@reddit
ghostogresnowrabbit@reddit
EloeOmoe@reddit
rkhan7862@reddit
whoiam06@reddit
TheBobInSonoma@reddit
aykevin@reddit
DankeBernanke@reddit
M4roon@reddit
SFWarriorsfan@reddit
Spetz@reddit
DZello@reddit
SharkBaitDLS@reddit
Skeptical0ptimist@reddit
guy-anderson@reddit
AssignedCatAtBirth@reddit
RichardNixon345@reddit
flGovEmployee@reddit
xlb250@reddit
xlb250@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
phenix_igloo@reddit
Niyeaux@reddit
Shmokesshweed@reddit
AssignedCatAtBirth@reddit
Niyeaux@reddit
xlb250@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
DZello@reddit
flGovEmployee@reddit
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
fattytuna96@reddit
Excellent-Camp-1351@reddit
hi_im_bored13@reddit
TotoroSlim@reddit
angrycanuck@reddit
krins12@reddit
devastationz@reddit
Salty-Dog-9398@reddit
argent_pixel@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
fitnessCTanesthesia@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
dolceandbanana@reddit
Spotter01@reddit
hauts17@reddit
bwoah_gimmethedrink@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit