No_Principle_4282@reddit

When it comes to air travel, I’d like the opposite of freedom. I don’t want pilots flying my family around with a “imma dude with a lifted truck get outta my way” mentality.

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FlorentineBanker@reddit

The people that downvoted your comment are the lifted truck with a thin blue line punisher sticker types that are the dumbest fucking people on the planet that float all rules because “MUH freedom”

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notaredditer13@reddit

The Virgin pilot was fine to be annoyed but it was unprofessional the way he whined about it and spent radio time looking for someone to blame (who was in fact not on the radio). And then the other pilots upped the ante on the unprofessionalism.

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AndrewMT@reddit

I have no experience to comment on the correct procedures or not, but the “not used to a little freedom” was incredibly unprofessional and provocative.

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pizza5001@reddit

Last week, I saw another video, similar to this one, where a voice on the LGA channel told an incoming Air Canada Jazz pilot exclaimed “freedom” as well, along with some other ignorant pleasantries. This took place just a couple weeks after two Air Canada Jazz pilots died at the exact airport, LGA. Disgraceful and unprofessional.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YhgLRtTSDZ0&pp=0gcJCU8Co7VqN5tDiggCQAE%3D

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SteakandTrach@reddit

Struck me as a bit of good natured ribbing. Everyone chimed in and it seemed to defuse a bit of tension, even in the VA pilot.

I’m not an aviator but I was in the air force and worked closely with flyers. They’re very serious people except when they are not. And then they can be incredibly silly and then instantly snap back to brusque business as usual.

I didn’t find this unprofessional, just a difference in institutional culture and then some ribbing and riffing. Not a big deal in my uneducated opinion.

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YamComprehensive7186@reddit

No, just different procedures. The ramp was "uncontrolled" meaning pilots don't call for permission to push off the gate, 'er freedom, push whenever ready', ramp push crews responsibility to not hit anyone. In Europe and most other countries your not even free to start your engines without calling someone and asking for permission let alone move your aircraft without talking to some authority.

CollegeStation17155@reddit

But did the SW know that there was a taxi going on behind them? If they were already pushing back before they saw the Virgin or the Virgin pilot called to them, it was just an unfortunate coincidence... unless (and I am not familiar with the rules for an "uncontrolled" ramp) one pilot or the other (or both) should have called out their intentions before the pushback started.

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Rich_Leg_2085@reddit

The ramp on Austin is controlled. 100% on the ramp controller. If they were cleared to push, then they push, and the controller should have been more directive to both aircraft. Not on SWA at all, just an impatient dick on the Virgin aircraft.

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burlycabin@reddit

The ramp on Austin is controlled.

Lol. The ground controller in this video literally says the ramp is uncontrolled, but go off.

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If by British you mean Airbus... uh sure?

Its cute your plane doesn't trust you so it makes all the real important decisions for you.

I am jealous of your tray table...

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ThatAdamsGuy@reddit

Couldn't they just check their mirrors or stick a head out the window and look behind smh

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spacecadet2399@reddit

I don't know about this specific ramp, but on "uncontrolled" ramps we're typically listening on ramp control and following their instructions. These are not FAA controllers and not much is actually regulatory, but there is usually one or more ramp controllers at large airports with non-movement area ramps just to keep things tidy. So there is certainly no guarantee that the SW crew would have known anyone was behind them because clearly the Virgin crew was talking to ground at this point, not ramp.

EffectiveProgram4157@reddit

should be VERY similar everywhere

I'm not in this line of work, but what are you smoking? Yeah, things should be similar, but every country has different signs and rules on their roads.

Take a look at driving in Vietnam vs America vs Poland. There are many different road signs and unwritten rules of the road. It's up to the driver to know what those differences are. People aren't supposed to adapt to the driver.

You can't be that brain dead, right? I should hope not if you're a pilot.

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Tasty_Meats@reddit

Obviously you're not involved in aviation. You really think every country has its own specific rule for aviation while flying thru the country? Lmao. Yeah all those signs I have in the sky.

There are ICAO rules and FAA rules. As USAF Pilots we get to do, basically whatever we want, in US airspace. There are many techniques for things we can use that you can't while ICAO. Being in an uncontrolled ramp area, it is what it is. Southwest doesn't wait because they aren't paid like the rest of the airlines, they count time differently.

What's the Brit going to do? File a hurt feelings report? He can MAYBE file an ASAP on the ground crew. This is nothing but snarky comms and those also happen every so often 🤷🏻‍♂️.

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EffectiveProgram4157@reddit

rule for aviation while flying thru the country

First, we're talking about taxi'ing on a runway, landing, taking off.

The sad thing is that you're just wrong on that anyways, lmfao. A quick google search shows that.

Specific National Regulations: Countries can impose unique rules. Examples include:

Mexico prohibits VFR night flying.
Canada requires a flight plan for all flights longer than 25 nautical miles.

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Tasty_Meats@reddit

Yeah your Google search is better than someone with thousands of hours of flying and international flying. I swear Redditors like you are the worst.

Every country has specific flight rules for certain things, but not everything. What you mentioned is ridiculous by the way, you think people don't fly VFR at night in Mexico? 😂 You def used AI to ask that question btw.

You're talking about things that apply to GA mostly. There are exceptions to the night VFR rule specifically for airline operations.

Everything you mentioned, takeoff/landing/taxi is established ICAO rules internationally and you're not going to see random ass signs unless you're at a smaller airport. All airport markings are standardized.

The FCG has all the weird specific rules different countries may have for entry. Look at the middle east and how they prohibit flights originating from Israel or how Israel has a tiny window to hit your EET at their FIR.

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EffectiveProgram4157@reddit

Please read this for OPSEC reasons - delete your Reddit account.

You should not have a Reddit username that's associated with your personal/public social media accounts.

Feel free to create a new Reddit account afterwards with a username you've never used before.

- Signed, a prior USAF Intel Analyst who spent his career briefing aircrew across multiple bases and flying squadrons

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Tasty_Meats@reddit

No

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MisLeadingUserPost@reddit

Yes, EACH country has its OWN rules and regulations also called RAR. A quick google search can show you LMAO.

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xKommandant@reddit

“Airmanship” some of you losers just love dangling your three inch dicks every where.

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Sharp_Acadia185@reddit

I was simply and specifically replying to

Not everyone flies in the US and are aware of what and what not (:

It has nothing to do with airmanship. You stated facts that, per this video, illustrate that is not the case at ATX, manners or otherwise.

I'm not saying it's "the right thing to do" I'm saying don't generalize about somewhere you aren't familiar with.

I do not understand what you are trying to say.

Cruise FO is very much a thing in EASA countries wherein ab initio training is conducted, i.e. people with 250 hrs sitting right-seat. We do not do this in the US.

The pushback should have waited, but I guarantee you if that virgin plane was just a few gates back, the southwest pilot's visibility would have been blocked by the neighboring gate's aircraft. He can't see shit. The pilot directs the push back crew to push when they think its clear and safe to do so. The pushback crew started pushing - they could have made a better decision.

In the video, the ground controller suggests to the virgin pilot he can "sidestep", meaning... just leave the yellow line, dude, there is a ton of open pavement out there to go around, but I guess the virgin pilot says "there isn't room". Oh well. These are the things that happen in an uncontrolled non-movement area. Have some patience, and move on.

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windol1@reddit

am surprised by how many upvotes you got.

I'm not. Reddit is mostly an American platform and many Americans don't think from a logical aspect, they've just seen it's a British pilot and jumped straight on the patriotism train.

I mean, if they switched the rolls of the pilots and who's giving the attitude, I'd bet the very same people would suddenly have different opinions.

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Wingmaniac@reddit

Completely agree, but being unfamiliar with that ramp and just going by the video is it even certain the push crew could see the aircraft coming and couldn't Virgin just slide over to the outside line?

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coombeseh@reddit

"Just slide over to the outside line"

That's just not something anyone in a commercial aircraft of any size (let alone a heavy jet) should be even thinking about. It might be a separate taxiway, it might not, but taxiing somewhere you don't have an explicit clearance for is a terrible idea.

The reason the conversations up and down this thread are getting heated is because in most of the commercial aviation world everything is fully controlled - it only seems to be the US where things like uncontrolled ramps are allowed. So anyone not from the US is seeing it from the Virgin pilot's perspective, and the americans are going "this is just how we do it"

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Wingmaniac@reddit

I do it regularly. In Canada. It's often the reason why there are two lines. The planes are pushed to the inside line to taxi out while inbound aircraft use the outside line.

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Tenzipper@reddit

If the push crew doesn't have someone looking for other aircraft, they aren't doing their jobs.

This is like an "unsafe release" in the F1 pit lane. Traffic already moving has the ROW, and you get penalized for impeding.

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King_Yahoo@reddit

F1 is a horrible thing to compare to in this instance. It's not a race. Safety is the only priority when it comes to transporting hundreds of people. Virgin pilot was being a little bitch because he had to push his brakes and wait a full minute before getting to his gate.

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Tenzipper@reddit

Your objection is flawed.

In both cases, there's a whole crew of people working together to accomplish the mission safely. (To get the vehicle in/out of parking safely.

I know for a fact, in F1, one of them is watching for oncoming traffic, and signalling the rest of the crew/driver when it's safe to proceed without impeding other cars.

I'm betting someone on the SWA crew has the same duty.

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King_Yahoo@reddit

I'm betting someone on the SWA crew has the same duty.

If that is what you believe, then you have no idea how ramp operations works.

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Tenzipper@reddit

Yes, I'm sure they just push with no regard to anything/anyone else.

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TheStalledAviator@reddit

The pushback driver will tell you when the engines are clear to start. It depends on the airport and the exact parking position. So your conclusion is correct yeah. I don't know if some operators have it as a rule but it would seem a silly rule to have.

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DrakonILD@reddit

Mistakes that could lead to accidents should always be reviewed. The Virgin pilot is absolutely correct there - and everyone else in this conversation is aware of that. But he also doesn't need to be a petulant whiny bitch about it. That's what they're mocking him for.

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rafaelzio@reddit

Oh yeah, I get that, if a mistake carries risk some competent authority has to at least take a closer look, but in this case it seems even the complainer was more annoyed at losing time than worried about safety, it seemed to me (again, someone who probably doesn't know what he's talking about) more of an accidental discourtesy than reckless behavior

1 baby. We're the best at catching criminals. Aint nothing wrong with that!

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

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Daedalus_was_high@reddit

And it is this exact sentiment that switched me from pro to anti death penalty.

Way too much bias in our legal system.

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Dangerous_Fan2029@reddit

Its important to let them suffer longer. I agree!!

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Daedalus_was_high@reddit

Okay, that's your motivation, perhaps.

Mine was not killing innocent poor people, but you do you.

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

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This is why our populace is seen as amongst the least intelligent in the first world

I disagree with you. An aircraft in motion has the right away.

patience is a virtue for pilots. one bad decision from get-there-itis is all it takes. the absolute worst quality.

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MKBlackAres@reddit

Dude he was cut off by annoying cunts. Or are you always the twat that cuts people off on the road and then goes out of your way to avoid eye contact?

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_Makaveli_@reddit

Reddit flair >> type rating

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swift1883@reddit

“You a pilot, too?

“Yep”

“What flair you on?”

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PhDinDildos_Fedoras@reddit

SW could have apologized

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texxelate@reddit

Go on gent

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Throwaway1098590@reddit

The PIC of the aircraft being pushed back is.

You, and everyone else literally have no idea what you’re talking about apparently.

I have an education from an FAA accredited school and program, as well as 10 certifications and trainings and real world experience managing business and ramp operations at an FBO.

Including: $1+ (and likely more) Billion worth of aviation equipment alone. Not including everything else.

14 CFR § 91.113 Right-of-Way Rules

§ 91.113(b): "Vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft."

§ 91.13(b): "No person may operate an aircraft... on any part of the surface of an airport... in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of others."

§ 91.111(a): "No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard."

Federal Requirements and Part 139

For a controlled airport, 14 CFR § 139.329 requires the airport to ensure ground personnel avoid interfering with aircraft operations. Most Airport Certification Manuals (ACM) and FAA Advisory Circulars (AC 150/5210-20) specify: "Ground vehicles and tows shall yield the right-of-way to taxiing aircraft."

Under 14 CFR § 1.1, the definition of "operate" includes the use of an aircraft. A tug driver moving an aircraft is "operating" it on the surface. Pushing an aircraft into an active taxiway without verifying it is clear is a violation of § 91.13(b). If a taxiing aircraft—which is established on the taxiway with an ATC clearance—must stop to avoid a collision, the pushback crew has legally created the hazard.

NTSB Case Precedent: SEA08LA061

In similar surface collisions, the NTSB has determined the probable cause to be the "tug operator’s failure to maintain clearance with the [taxiing] aircraft during the pushback process." The board specifically cites the lack of wing-walkers and failure to monitor the taxiway as primary factors.

Conclusion: Having a tug attached does not grant priority. The pushback crew has the "initial move" responsibility to ensure the taxiway is clear before entering it.

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aviatortrevor@reddit

The southwest pilots certainly are NOT responsible for this if their visibility from the cockpit is hampered while at the gate (which it is - I operate 737s in Austin all the time. The adjacent jetway & airplane is blocking a significant portion of your view). The southwest crew claim they didn't see the virgin plane until they already were pushing back, and I believe them. Perhaps the most you could criticize is the minimum-wage wing walker not walking out far enough to ensure it was clear for the entire length of the very long taxilane. In Austin, it probably wouldn't occur to ground crew that an oncoming airplane 7 or 8 plane-lengths away moving at 3mph is a problem since the ramp is so enormous, everyone just taxis on the outer taxilane and goes AROUND the aircraft that are pushing back from the gate on the inner taxilane. This is the norm for Austin, and it would be reasonable for pushback crew to assume the oncoming aircraft is intending to go that way and not continue to aim for the southwest plane.

91.113(b) was not violated since the southwest pushback crew *did* SEE and then AVOID. There was no collision. This is essentially the viewpoint of the Virgin crew. "Inconvenienced" is a more apt description than "near-collision." This wasn't a near-collision. This was seeing a grandma on her walker at the opposite end of the grocery store aisle and realizing you're going to be in their way once they SLOWLY make their way towards your end of the aisle. The virgin crew had eons to get on their brakes and create ample space and separation.

Invoking 91.13(b) is laughable. You think life or property was endangered in this case? LOL. Not even close.

91.111(a) wasn't violated either. There was no collision hazard. The term "collision hazard" implies there is some reasonable and significant potential for collision. If I'm driving my car down the road at 3mph and I see a car pulling out of their driveway 10 houses down, I would have to be a completely inept driver to not have sufficient time to react and stop. You can argue that perhaps I was "cut off" or that I had the "right-of-way", but you can't reasonably say the situation is a "collision hazard" at these significant distances and slow speeds.

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jtshinn@reddit

I mean. The planes are tiny in the video. There’s obviously plenty of room…

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l4dygaladriel@reddit

Just a typical day of redditor spitting bs lol

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Wingmaniac@reddit

This basic point being a very specific point unknown to pretty much anyone and not mentioned in the video?

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spkgsam@reddit

Only C2 is restricted to 52m, but C2 only starts to the west of G1. The photo in the video must be old. To the East of G1are hard stands which I can only assume were empty, which they could've used to taxi out. Which is exactly what the controller was suggesting.

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RBR927@reddit

Or it’s a joke, I guess we’ll never know….

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RainbowSherbetShit@reddit

It’s a fine joke. I’m replying to the others calling the UK a mess in comparison or making claims about arrests over online comments.

I'm not in America, genius, but go on

tree-fife-niner@reddit

I've been a controller at an airport where virtually every pushback was on a movement area so we controlled EVERYTHING. I've also controlled at an airport where almost every pushback was an uncontrolled ramp so we controlled nothing until they called for taxi.

I much prefer controlling all the pushes. You would think it would reduce workload to not have people calling you until they want to taxi but then you get situations like this. You can't send an inbound plane into the ramp because planes keep pushing back. Someone has finished de-icing and then another plane pushes in front of them. All kinds of problems.

When I can control the pushes I can get super creative and keep the operation more efficient. I wish my current airport would give us control of more pavement. The problem is that they have all kinds of vehicles driving around the ramp so they just make it "uncontrolled" so they don't have to concern themselves with sorting out all these conflicts.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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HGHall@reddit

this is far and away the best comment here!

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Remote_Independent50@reddit

And I still dont understand

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nascent_aviator@reddit

tl;dr airports have "movement areas" (controlled by ATC) and "non-movement areas" (not controlled). In the latter, the rules are pretty much like a parking lot- there are right-of-way rules but by and large pilots are expected to sort things out and be careful not to hit anything.

Not an ATC but have been on the NATS training regimen in the past (did not get selected, that shit is tough).

In the UK we have pretty rammed airspace; uncontrolled fields are almost exclusively a GA thing here barring the odd commercial field in the Scottish Islands - and the "first time here" comment from the VA suggests to me that he's not used to maneuvering when the ramp is uncontrolled.

Over the pond the SWA PF would be cursed with every cuss word under the sun off-mic and get a half dozen middle fingers aimed at him by everyone else on the ramp, with Ground making a few "you absolute smooth brained spanner" comments under their breath, but in the States where your airspace is far less restrictive it's just a normal Tuesday.

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monkeyjuggler@reddit

To add to this, it is pretty much standard in Europe to have to request to push through ATC. Through that lens the Virgin pilot probably thinks he is justified in being annoyed.

Also, unless things like this are reported then the risk is never mitigated because the safety team don't know about it.

Finally, the pilot is probably tired after a long flight and a bit grumpy because of it. (Virgin are known for pretty tough rosters). Doesn't excuse the behaviour but helps to understand it.

All of the above may be true but he could also just be a bit of a prat.

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Sea_Taste1325@reddit

I have a buddy who works ATC for the Oakland region or whatever (not the airport) so I dont think he would know, but maybe you would:

Wouldn't your workload be much higher if you have to work through pushes, battling schedules, etc? Or is your workload higher managing aircraft while unknowns are popping up everywhere?

And second question: if it is a higher workload to control all pushes, does it feel like a lower workload because of reduced stress?

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tree-fife-niner@reddit

In my experience it wasn't that complex. It's not like you are coordinating with the ground crew. Pilot calls up for push back and you say "push approved" or "hold your push". Maybe you give them a direction to push their tail or give them a conditional push after traffic taxis by. It's just an extra transmission or two but it keeps things more organized.

JaStrCoGa@reddit

As ground told them they didn’t have to wait though. Am I missing something?

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enakcm@reddit

Ground told Virgin that they don't have to wait for the pushback and cam just go past. But obviously this was not the case.

I think this is what actually annoyed the pilot of the Virgin - they are told to just taxi past them but at the same time the other guy is pushed in his way.

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HungryHippoTheGame99@reddit

Yeah I think this is it. “Hey Virgin, you’re good to go past” - then they put a plane in the way. Virgin is “who tv” is coordinating this shit show.

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shaf7@reddit

Do you think the 737 magically teleported to that spot in the video? The Southwest aircraft started the push much earlier and the controller was letting virgin know he could deviate around the 737 as virgin was approaching the aircraft from behind. It's not hard to grasp. Flying in the US might be "sPeCiAl" but I doubt you'd make the cut.

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dosumthinboutthebots@reddit

Red coats are coming...

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Throwaway1098590@reddit

I’ve worked at an FBO, graduated from an FAA Accredited school, and 10 certifications in training from an FAA Approved course.

An aircraft in motion has the right away. If I was the duty manager, or any supervisor there I would have sent the ground crew for retraining.

The virgin aircraft has the right away. I’m from 🇺🇸 and I see nothing wrong with them being pissed off having to stop. I would have been pissed too.

There is nothing that suggests they could clearly see another giant aircraft.

If they couldn't verify 100% whether the area behind/near the aircraft was clear, they shouldn't have pushed it back. That's why there are wing walkers and ground guides as part of the pushback crew.

But you're making this way too complicated. If the SWA aircraft had waited an additional 30 seconds, it would have been safer than what happened here. They still would have gotten to where they were going on time, just with less risk of mishap.

The way this happened was the less safe option of the 2 possible scenarios.

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Wingmaniac@reddit

I can't believe I have to explain this. But an area can be clear one moment and then not clear the next. This is because aircraft can move through space.

I'm not making this complicated at all. They were able to push an aircraft safely . They did it safely. Another aircraft got pissy.

Spend some time around airports and you'll see this kind of thing all the time.

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TbonerT@reddit

Complaining before things get unsafe is how you keep things from getting unsafe.

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Wingmaniac@reddit

So they write hourly reports about every imaginary scenario? This isn't a safety issue. There was no indication it could become a safety issue. This is someone complaining about traffic.

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TbonerT@reddit

No, this is someone complaining about SW pushing while seemingly unaware of taxiing traffic and it is possible they pushed without even looking. If they had waited a few seconds to push back, it could have become a safety issue. There’s more to being safe than “is this safe or unsafe”. There’s an area in the middle where things are safe but can quickly become unsafe. In many instances, including this one, there’s no reason to be in that area.

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Wingmaniac@reddit

Ok. I guess nothing I say will convince you. But this stuff happens all the time at every airport. It's not unsafe. It's busy airport operations. Nobody said "watch out!" They said "hey. Get out of my way". There are airports where its entire OPS are uncontrolled. It works.

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TbonerT@reddit

Nobody said "watch out!" They said "hey. Get out of my way".

The SW crew didn’t say anything and the Virgin crew didn’t say anything like “get out of my way”. Are you expecting a taxiing aircraft to announce its position so no one gets in the way?

There are airports where its entire OPS are uncontrolled. It works.

It works because people tend to stay on the safe side of the gray area between safe and unsafe.

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Wingmaniac@reddit

Are you expecting a taxiing aircraft to announce its position so no one gets in the way?

ysfsim@reddit

File the incident to the FAA or airport, hoping that the implement better procedures

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hoppertn@reddit

Meh, sometimes you screw, sometimes you get screwed. This incident wouldn’t lead to any enforceable procedure change unless the tower is monitoring the ramp and is in control of giving pushback clearance. Trust me, they don’t want that added workload.

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OglioVagilio@reddit

Except it sounds like it did lead to an enforceable procedure change.

And I guarantee not a single fucking thing will be done about it.

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Pilots: "ground, flight ABC gate x ready for push and start"

ATC: "flight ABC push and start your discretion (or sometimes specific push instructions to a certain spot)"

Pilots: "push our discretion"

Pilots: "flight deck to ground crew, we are cleared to.push our discretion"

Ground crew: "pushing back out discretion"

Ground crew visually confirms with wing walkers and pushes back the aircraft and advises flight crew when it's clear to start engines.

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Affectionate_One_700@reddit

visibility behind planes is usually pretty poor from the cockpit.

InquisitorMeow@reddit

Tbh they weren't at fault here and the Virgin pilot was being a dick and saying they would file a complaint with the FAA, he only got snippy after that.

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Christovski@reddit

You're missing the point. It was an attack based on him not being American. If it was an American pilot he wouldn't have said that. It shows a superiority complex that is taken for granted.

deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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IndependentSubject90@reddit

In Canada this would not be allowed. An airplane in motion always has right of way, just because the apron is uncontrolled does not mean there’s no rules. Most rules in aviation are international so I assume it would be similar in the US.

Delta could be fined, the ground crew would almost certainly be penalized, and the tug operator could lose their license depending on the rules at the airport (where I work it’s a demerit point system, same as the provincial drivers license system). Cutting off a plane like this is a huge offence.

The affected pilots were professional and said they would report an incident to increase aviation safety, and were met with a silly insult from pilots who weren’t even in charge of the pushback…

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WhatzRealz@reddit

Anyone who listens to the pilots spout dumb MAGA type shit at the end.

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Loyalist scum

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ThrillHoeVanHouten@reddit

That certainly is some opinion alright

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Ok-Educator-3605@reddit

Deep fried…

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kniir@reddit

Damn, you took that one personally huh?

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peterpanic32@reddit

No more than "Americans and being unprofessional little children" would earn.

Classic Britishers - unleash a torrent of tasteless, hot shit, claim it's "banter", then snivel and cry whenever someone gives them the slightest bit of it back.

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Evening_Yam5266@reddit

Oh i dont claim its banter. I just think americans are ridiculous. And youre proving me right.

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New Zealand, as it turns out.

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AdDramatic2351@reddit

Holy fuck dude. You just watched a video of a Brit being a complete baby and you still insult the Americans lol?

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When youy say "you're Irish" , do you mean 4th gen Irish American? Because that's the only way that accent would sound Irish

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mannish_boy@reddit

The pilots from Mayo mate. Same as me. But good one.

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tscalbas@reddit

What part about "turn" specifically? The R?

Irish and Scottish dialects are both rhotic, so naturally they'd pronounce that word somewhat similarly.

In a coat of gold or a coat of red

A plane still has wings

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marksman1023@reddit

If you write it "an airplane still has wings" the syllables line up

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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TheMrMorbid@reddit

and mine are long and go kaboom my lord

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postbansequel@reddit

As kaboom as fat-man's gone

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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Did what

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Youngstown_WuTang@reddit

They made him a pilot 😂

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GrandpaKnuckles@reddit

Same lol

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AcceptableBear9771@reddit

Ramp and ground control misshap

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Internal_Select@reddit

Wait they have no control over the ramp? I thought pilots needed taxi clearance before the pushback. This looks a bit wreckless.

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DaDidko@reddit

I think the word you are looking for is reckless.

One of the easiest. Same thing happened with the Irish who fought in the royal navy and army later on. But they were still ‘separate’ from the English establishment and would face discrimination.

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OmarRIP@reddit

/s

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FlappyBored@reddit

The English establishment like the tobacco lords.

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SnooTomatoes3032@reddit

The only real Scots oppressed by the Empire were oppressed by other Scots.

Scotland only joined England and formed the United Kingdom because their own attempt at empire failed and bankrupted them.

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Ivebeenfurthereven@reddit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

As the Company of Scotland was backed by approximately 20 percent of all the money circulating in Scotland, its failure left the entire Scottish Lowlands in financial ruin. This was an important factor in weakening resistance to the Act of Union (completed in 1707).

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Please see my sibling reply to marathonBarry.

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FlappyBored@reddit

Scotland are British.

Just look up the Highland clearances.

You mean the clearances that were done by SCOTTISH PEOPLE to other Scots?

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pjakma@reddit

Please see my sibling reply to marathonBarry.

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marathonBarry@reddit

This is fucking idiotic. The highland clearances were perpetrated by lowland Scots. The Scots have never been the victims of British oppression and the revisionism that takes place here is laughable

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pjakma@reddit

Been a long time since I did the Highland Clearances in standard grade history. And yes, many of the soldiers would have been lowland Scots. And the lairds who benefited from the clearances were Scottish or of Scots descent themselves. The highlanders were culturally somewhat different from the lowland Scots. My main mistake here - in a very short, super-simplified comment on Scottish history in an aviation reddit - is to use the terms "Scots" instead of "Highland Scottish".

Note, in Ireland, many of the RIC and soldiers who carried out the evictions there were also Irish. And the land-lords were often Irish (in the sense of Anglo-Irish aristocracy generally resident in Ireland, rather than in England) themselves.

Yet it was still the British colonial system - the system that benefit the aristrocracy around the British crown (even if some of those lords were born in Ireland or Scotland, and even descended from old Irish or Scottish chieftains in some cases, particularly in Scotland) - that was served by the eviction of the local Scots and Irish tenant farmers; even if that system also recruited other poor Scots and Irish into their armies and police to then carry out those evictions.

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MonkeManWPG@reddit

The Union happened because the King of Scotland became the King of England too. The Scottish people were no more oppressed by the British establishment than the English people were.

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Minimum_Possibility6@reddit

Not quite. The act of union was a parliamentary act. But it fundamentally came about because Scotland bankrupted itself trying to establish a colony in the Darien Gap

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gagnatron5000@reddit

I was under the impression that there were a lot of Scots that weren't particularly fond of the English for a long time. It makes sense that under pressure to be a world superpower (the alternative being a collective of second-world countries), there would be groups that want to unify though.

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MonkeManWPG@reddit

It makes sense that under pressure to be a world superpower (the alternative being a collective of second-world countries), there would be groups that want to unify though.

That's not really how the Act of Union came to be. The Scottish King James VI became the King of England after Elizabeth I died. The two kingdoms were then ruled by the same monarch for about a hundred years before they were formally combined into the Kingdom of Great Britain.

Another hundred years and that becomes the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and a bit over another hundred years and it becomes the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it stands today.

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FlappyBored@reddit

Red coat was a British military uniform not English you melt lol

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gagnatron5000@reddit

And here I thought the Scots were our friends

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krodders@reddit

There's no love lost from the Scottish to the English, but they were full on part of the _British _ Empire.

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gagnatron5000@reddit

We'll I'm American so that tracks. Definitely dumb, most certainly uncultured. And I never heard of Scottish regiments wearing red coats so they couldn't have been that famous.

(I'm ribbing a bit, pardon my ignorance - we're not known for being well-versed in world history on this side of the pond)

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SpicyLizards@reddit

Have some self dignity my guy

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gagnatron5000@reddit

I have the dignity to admit when I'm an idiot.

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Americans don’t sit around thinking about Scotland all day so it’s fine. You seem a little too mad about this.

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gagnatron5000@reddit

I can't speak for everyone, only myself.

I know Scotland is British. My lack of understanding, and ignorance in historical matters, is how proudly British the Scots are. From everything I've gathered, the English pretty much dragged everyone into the British empire kicking and screaming.

For what it's worth, I'll do a bit of research on the history of your country if it makes you feel better.

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ItsFuckingScience@reddit

“The Scots” wildly vary in how proudly British they are.

Many people consider themselves diehard aggressively British, many are diehard aggressively Scottish nationalists. And many don’t really care much either way.

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Henghast@reddit

Nationalism in this way is fairly modern however. When Britain was still ruling the empire Scotland was a proud part of that and it's been revisionist nationalistic history that has tried to create a false narrative.

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FlappyBored@reddit

Wait till you find out which country united the two Kingdoms and things like the Darien Scheme and things like the Tobacco Lords

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Patient_Leopard421@reddit

Ahh. You're one of those weird Brits overly fascinated with imperial history. No wonder you're so fun.

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Actual_Photo_2257@reddit

"Northern accent" means English accent, just a different one. He is also definitely Scottish.

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theaveragemillenial@reddit

Seeing as the majority believe the obviously Irish virgin airlines pilot is Scottish, I don't think you are alone in this.

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Careful_Farmer_2879@reddit

No, you’re hearing audio that has been picked up by a radio of lesser quality.

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ashishvp@reddit

Nope definitely sounds like that IRL. My hearing isn’t perfect and it’s been a pain in the ass learning the radios during my training.

Van Nuys is gonna hate me for all my “say again” calls

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Elios000@reddit

sounds like that IRL. AM radios clip pretty bad but they work at insane ranges and the up side is you at lest get some of it even when on the edges

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Alarming-Medium-547@reddit

I'm just GA pilot but the Virgin pilot sounded like a princess. As the ground controller pointed out, the ramp or apron is a "non-movement" area so it is, as he put it, uncontrolled; so for the Virgin pilot to get heated at the ground controller makes him look amateurish. In other words, if I need to move my aircraft within the "non-movement" area i.e. the ramp at the local FBO, I can do so without seeking clearance from the tower. There are line people with orange batons that will guide you so you won't hit other aircraft or put you where they want you to park. When I am at an airport that doesn't have a tower, I will announce my movement via the Unicom/CTAF on the ramp. As for airline terminals, I assume the airline ground crew makes all the calls on the ramp. In the Virgin pilot's defense, perhaps they do it differently in the UK... furthermore all airline pilots are on a timetable/fuel burn pressure cooker so they have those stresses. Regardless - he sounded like a big douchebag and I'm glad the other pilots mocked him, he certainly deserved it.

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collinsl02@reddit

So you're saying that moving on the ramp is fine, but surely then reversing into a controlled taxiway, which is what happened here, is not? Or is the taxiway "uncontrolled", in which case why does the SW pilot need to get clearance to move once he's on it.

LittleLinky@reddit

Dick move to push. But some ground crews think it's a game of whoever occupies the taxiway first wins.

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CitalopramSith@reddit

No unless he’s Northern Irish, but I’m sure plenty non Brits also work for British Airways.

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CuteTelephone3399@reddit

Couldnt hear any accent untill the word "approaching" and thought ,thats Scottish in there somewhere.

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Actual_Photo_2257@reddit

"somebody's not used to a little freedom".

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MrShortPants@reddit

With enough time and space it's not a safety issue.

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LBCR7@reddit

Wow thank you very much for this!

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collinsl02@reddit

think minor league Air Traffic Controller

In the US, maybe, however in civilised countries this is just a rotational position. In somewhere like Heathrow your day as a tower controller may look like a shift on landing, a rest break, then a shift on ground, another rest break, then a shift on takeoff etc etc.

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Ramp control and ATC are completely separate things in the US. The ground controller has no idea who is pushing from the gate

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Stazymoto@reddit

Judging by the way the ramp is laid out I think at the time that video was taken AUS had no ramp control. ATC was the only control and pilots had to call Ground prior to pushback off any gate.

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AutoModerator@reddit

Submission of political posts and comments are not allowed, Rule 7. Political comments can result in a ban.

Then again there is voicing frustration and reminding them to be more mindful next time and being a total toddler about it. Seen enough of Mayday to not feel comfortable with that attitude being the right one for a cockpit.

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GetawayDreamer87@reddit

this happens a lot on the tiny southeast asian island that i live on where everything is right next to the only highway going north-south: im driving as fast as safely possible usually 50-60kph and then some guy steps out onto the 2-lane national fucking highway and waves at me to stop because hes gonna guide a goddamn 18-wheeler out backwards. they'll even do this when you are only about 10 car lengths away essentially brake checking you.

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ActGrown@reddit

What about the fuel burn? I mean, it should be okay but maybe that's why he's mad?

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PlayonWurds@reddit

If you don't have an extra 10 minutes of fuel at a busy airport, you planned it way wrong. Some of it is barely understandable but it's mostly him just being an impatient control freak and being holier than thou.

Sometimes you taxi out to a runway and there's another plane on the other side doing the same and it's a "race" to get the runway. So let's say you get there first and call tower. But then tower clears the other guy for takeoff before you. Maybe the other plane had a tight departure window so they let them go first. Sometimes it's just out of your control and you have to be patient. We all want to get going, but whining about it doesn't help anyone.

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ActGrown@reddit

I don't mean running out.

I mean getting chewed on for wasting it.

That is a common gripe at the Memphis ramp for FedEx pilots. Someone is having to answer for fouled gates just for that reason.

What is going on here exactly?

Planes tailgating?

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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AutoModerator@reddit

Submission of political posts and comments are not allowed, Rule 7. Political comments can result in a ban.

British accent footballer analyst:

“And the referee draws a red card for unsportsmanlike behavior!!!”

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UltraWeebMaster@reddit

So, ordinarily, many controlled airfields have movement and non-movement areas.

Non-movement areas are places that the ground controller doesn’t coordinate, they’re places like tie down areas, company properties, and anywhere that isn’t a runway. Movement areas are mostly taxiways, and the ground controller gives taxi instructions to people looking to move throughout the airfield.

Southwest Airlines promotes lower cost tickets as "Freedom to Fly". I'm pretty sure it was just a play on that.

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beliefinphilosophy@reddit

So I think I ran into a similar scenario to this years ago.

I was in Florida and there was a storm coming. The pilot was worrying about getting grounded, and (I think they weren't giving him a runway or he's been told to wait). But he got the crew to push back early, and told us that he did push back to get in the way of another plane or so, so they had to give him a runway. About 3-5 minutes after our takeoff they grounded all flights. My friends who were leaving on a flight shortly after mine couldn't leave until the day after.

I think you’re getting a lot of answers from non-pilots who do not understand professional etiquette. The southwest pilot was cleared to bust balls after the Virgin pilot wouldn’t let it go.

He got cut off. We get it. Time to move on. He spent WAY too much effort and comm space just whining about it. That is not what is expected of professional pilots on the radio. So if you whine like that, expect a ribbing. Unless you’ve witnessed something with safety implications, keep it to yourself. If there’s nothing for anyone to actually do about it, and he’s just trying to let everyone know he’s unhappy, then he needs to just shut up.

If you are whining to ground control about me for what the rampers did, and then call me up to whine at me directly, buckle up. Don’t start shit, won’t be no shit.

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collinsl02@reddit

Unless you’ve witnessed something with safety implications,

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keenly_disinterested@reddit

Never chastise or argue on the radio. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, everyone looks stupid.

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babihrse@reddit

He made a joke about freedom on a maneuver. Christ.

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Useful-Influence-125@reddit

Uggg. As an American, American exceptionalism nauseates me. These guys have clearly never been outside the US. If they ever had, they'd know that the US is NOT 'the greatest country on Earth'. Not even by a long shot.
I've lived over seas for >15 years, and I still have to file US taxes, even though I am not living in the US. The US is falling apart. Boston is more expensive than London. >100,000 families file for bankruptcy every year because of medical debt. Freedom? Lol.

•   Citizenship-based taxation: The United States is almost alone in taxing citizens regardless of where they live. Live in Germany, France, or the United Kingdom and you pay tax where you live. Period.

•   Foreign account reporting (FATCA/FBAR): U.S. citizens must report foreign bank accounts annually, even if fully legal, modest, and already taxed locally. Miss a form, face life-altering penalties. European citizens do not live under this extraterritorial financial surveillance regime.

•   Renouncing citizenship costs money: The U.S. literally charges a multi-thousand-dollar fee to leave. Most European countries do not monetise exit from citizenship.

•   Healthcare tied to employment: Lose your job in the U.S., you can lose healthcare immediately. In Germany, France, or the UK, healthcare is decoupled from your employer. That is practical freedom of movement and negotiation power.

•   Medical bankruptcy: Effectively nonexistent in Western Europe. In the U.S., it remains a leading cause of personal bankruptcy. Freedom that collapses when you get sick is conditional freedom.

•   Infant mortality: The U.S. has higher infant mortality than Germany, France, and the UK. For a country that talks about “life” a lot, the outcomes are objectively worse.

•   Maternal mortality: Significantly higher in the U.S. than peer European economies. This is not a marginal difference; it is systemic.

•   Paid leave: Zero federally mandated paid vacation or parental leave in the U.S. Europe treats rest, recovery, and family time as rights, not perks negotiated with HR.

•   Transport dependency: In much of the U.S., you cannot live, work, or participate in society without a car. Europe offers viable rail, transit, and walkable cities. Forced car ownership is not freedom.

•   Labour protection: At-will employment means you can be fired with little notice or cause in the U.S. European workers have notice periods, redundancy protections, and legal recourse.

•   Legal complexity as a tax: The U.S. offloads governance onto individuals. CPAs, lawyers, insurance brokers. Europe handles much of this structurally. Time not spent navigating bureaucracy is real freedom.

•   Voting friction: Registration hurdles, ID fights, weekday voting, and gerrymandering are normalised in the U.S. European democracies generally make voting boring and easy.

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Average welsh person

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Collwyr@reddit

Sounds a tiny bit Welsh but I think he’s English. Or at least is living in England and lost his Welsh accent.

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collinsl02@reddit

Nope, Scottish. My guess is lowland Scottish somewhere near Edinburgh.

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Collwyr@reddit

Funny how none of us can quite place it.

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GoodGoodGoody@reddit

OP, “I’m no pilot but…”

That goes for 90% of this subreddit.

collinsl02@reddit

A plane (Virgin Atlantic) was moving along a taxiway (road leading to the runway) and another plane (Southwest Airlines) was pushed backwards away from the gate into the taxiway which the Virgin plane was moving down (as shown in the graphics, which are not "live" but are a recreation).

The Virgin Atlantic crew rightly complained that this plane was just pushed backwards into their path, forcing them to stop, and also moving them backwards in the queue for the runway (since there's now another plane in front of them), and the American pilots on the ground channel immediately jumped in with comments about "freedom" and "America #1" etc.

Fuckin brit babys

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Kralgore@reddit

Virgin Pilot is Scottish. Not English.

Texas Cowboy attitude vs Rigid Rules Following British. Pretty entertaining.

I side w Virgin pilot because airplane mishaps are deadly and being careful is essential.

Not a pilot, but my opinion of him soured after that LATAM 787 incident a year or 2 ago. After it became clear what had happened, he responded to other videos about it saying they were totally wrong and what they said couldn't possibly happen. This was after the basic facts had become widely known. I can't recall whether there was an official report out at the time, but there was plenty of evidence publicly available which he didn't bother to look at.

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Traditional_Half_788@reddit

I mean I guess that all depends on your view. But he he just throws his two cents out on a good many things related to aviation. In this respect I just found his end statements to be funny about being accused of not being a pilot. I met him in passing at KIWA, at the time he flew for Atlas. Pretty sure he's still there.

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robbudden73@reddit

The dumbshittery comments at the end does how little they regard safety

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Ok-Possession6980@reddit

Virgin flt was taxing and SW just reversed out in front of them, effectively fucking up the takeoff order. Even though there's a speed limit while taxiing, still a dangerous move!

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libertarianloner@reddit

Meat servos can be incredibly impatient at times. I had a US Air that was told to hold on pushback yield to our NWA 757. Instead they pushed back and instead of waiting for us to get under way, taxied onto our ramp, which is always littered with FOD, and narrowly missed a ladder which blew over in course. Not to mention the tug that had to stop to avoid hitting a plane on his ramp.

Vachie_@reddit

It's wild how xenophobic the Americans are.

No wonder why We're going to be so isolated in this world with how we're going....

Ok_Type7882@reddit

Well there's a reason they been around decades and are still announcing themselves as virgin..

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this_knee@reddit

“The red coats are coming”

Naww that guy is a shit-brain pilot. Can't even land a joke correctly.

WN pushed onto an active taxiway.

Maybe they pushed later than expected? Usually if traffic is coming you’ll get a clear to push after XX (aircraft type) passes. That of course has to be relayed to the ramp by the Captain. Captain would say brakes released clear after the XX traffic passes.

FSFreakman21@reddit

I think Southwest screwed up here in not having better awareness of other traffic taxiing on the ramp and it sounds like the Virgin didn’t think they had the wing clearance to pass the Southwest so he made the right choice in erring on side of caution.

Both pilots just being kinda jerky

Non-event

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TogaPower@reddit

Brits are afraid of uncontrolled ramps

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Vrun_Statt@reddit

Unprofesional? Yes. Funny? Also yes.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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AutoModerator@reddit

Your comment or post has been automatically removed from /r/aviation. Posts/Comments from new accounts are automatically removed by our automated systems. We, and many other large subreddits, do this to combat spam, spambots, and other activities that are not condusive to the sub. In the meantime, participate on Reddit to build your acouunt age and this restriction will go away. Also, please familiarize yourself with this subreddit's rules, which you can find in the sidebar or by clicking this link. Do not contact the moderation team unless you feel you have received this message/action in error. We will not manually approve comments or posts from new accounts.

ConfidentialX@reddit

They don't mess around, no matter how small the problem.

Yes he was sassy and blunt, but I am sure his point got across.

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anactualspacecadet@reddit

I’m kind of amazed no one called him a pussy on guard, I’ve heard that happen for a lot less of a tantrum than the one this little British guy had

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ConfidentialX@reddit

I'm British 😆

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anactualspacecadet@reddit

I would never claim all British are like this guy, i know for a fact they’re not, this guy is just over the top

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UnspeakablePudding@reddit

I'm sure someone with more experience than I can clarify this further, in the US, depending upon the airport, the control of the ramp could be in the hands of ground crew, company dispatch, or controllers. I'm not sure how it works in the rest of the world, but the Virgin captain probably has a point.

I'm any case, SWA got his ass 🤣

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