Engineer is coming to do a structural report. They start excavation to check the underpinning next week. Thought I’d ask mainly about the brickwork for some more insight
It was so difficult to get an engineer to do a report on this because it obviously comes back partly on them if anything goes wrong in the future. Between me and the vendor we could only find one person and he requested excavations to be done to check depths and ground condition etc… the vendor was okay with this and has also paid for this as well. The vendor isn’t in the property as it is privately rented so it doesn’t directly affect the vendor anyway
And end up paying 3x the asking price for a block of crumbling bricks.
BTW if your mortgage is still outstanding then you’re still a tenant. it’s just the bank is your landlord instead.
Don’t pay, they’ll take it away.
Perhaps these photos will identify the renters, even if only to neighbours, who may now learn that they didn’t get approved for a mortgage, which they may not want making public.
Not having a go, just recommending a bit of caution when mentioning other people’s financial situations.
Or:
1. The property is empty
2. The tenant has served notice
Whilst it’d of course be annoying if you did live there (aside from the benefit of knowing if your home is in imminent risk of collapse or not), we have no information to go on to know which it is so what is the point of these comments? Have you had to be evicted from every house you’ve rented? Personally I never have been - always left of my own accord.
Section 21 and revenge evictions are more common than you seem to think. But I agree, without evidence to the contrary it's unfair to assume this wasn't amicable.
No, they’re not. To be valid to *assume* that it’s this would mean that section 21 “evictions” (let’s ignore that a section 21 isn’t an eviction) would have to be the *majority* of tenancies, and that is very far from the case.
I've ended 5 tenancies without the need for a S21 in my life. I imagine very very few S21s come entirely out of the blue. They were a much easier way of regaining possession when a section 8 would have been proper. Once the agent started making veiled threats that we'd get one if we attempted to enforce the contract we'd signed we started making plans to move. I'm sure they're an absolute upender to get but they're certainly not the norm.
>(let’s ignore that a section 21 isn’t an eviction
A section 21 notice absolutely is an eviction, both in the normal natural language use of the word and in a legal sense.
The [government's own guidance](https://www.gov.uk/evicting-tenants/section-21-and-section-8-notices) describes it this way:
>You can evict tenants who have an assured shorthold tenancy using a Section 21 or Section 8 notice, or both.
The fact is that a tenant is told to leave their home at a time and in a circumstance not of their choosing. That's an eviction.
Not sure why you chose to focus on this technicality which I specially set aside as an irrelevance but no, technically a section 21 notice is not an eviction, it is a notice.
Only a court can order an eviction. Only a court can order the completion of an eviction. The tenant can of course choose to stay beyond the end date of the notice and the landlord would have to apply for a possession order to evict them. In fact, if you wanted the council to house you you would need to do exactly that as otherwise they would consider your leaving to be “of your choosing” (your words) and therefore voluntarily homeless. As messed up as that is 🤷♂️
My partner's last landlord tried twice to evict her because she expected him to provide running water, heating in every room and deal with a leaking roof. That's just one example. There's been a spike in S21s leading up to the law change.
And I did say it wasn't fair to make the assumption that this is what happened in this case, so I'm not sure what your initial point was about.
That’s unfortunate for your friend, must be very frustrating.
Actually the spike in section 21s proves the point in a roundabout way. Because landlords *don’t* routinely do it, there is an observable spike of landlords doing it that wouldn’t normally have done so. Many good landlords are exiting the market and selling up because after the law changes they will be stuck with bad tenants, continuing an existing trend caused by tax policy (meaning landlords are taxed as if they had made profits they didn’t actually make). Those that remain after RR will have extra costs - either corporate landlords who swallow the periods waiting to be able to evict tenants who now have no incentive to pay any rent pay rent, passing the costs on to all other tenants - or smaller landlords forced to buy more expensive insurance. You’ll see the same with rent increases - because they won’t be able to do it in ‘jumps’ or between tenants they will be both raising rents now and forced to increase rent consistently every year thereafter. In all it’s going to get significantly more expensive for tenants.
Whereas the bad landlords are already not following the law - ending tenancies without a proper Section 21, invalid S21s because they aren’t meeting their obligations like with your friend, etc etc. Removing section 21 doesn’t actually affect these people.
As usual, the behaviour of the few will end up punishing everyone else on both sides of the market.
Yes it’s worse right now… than it was in normal circumstances. The RRA has *caused* the rise in section 21s, that’s all I’m saying. Sadly I don’t think it is going to be a net positive, though it may help a few people I think it will hurt more overall in the least welcome way - it’s already very expensive to rent.
Just to be complete, I didn’t say they were barely used, just that it wasn’t the norm and very far from the normal circumstance. Which I think we agree on.
Ive always rented and have always been aware it's someone else's flat I live in and if they want to sell then I'm shit out. It's just part of how it works, I can't stop someone from selling their own property.
>Yeah well they have got to move out anyway and it’s on the outside so shouldn’t affect them too much
Depends how long they're in there. I hope you know that their notice period isn't a guaranteed amount of time for them to leave.
Poor fuckers having to find somewhere this close after Christmas, they might stay six months.
Yeah it is unfortunate. They tried buying it themselves but couldn’t get a mortgage approved. The vendor has offered them another house to rent but I’m not sure what they’ll do
Mate they most certainly do not. Courts can easily take a year and in the meantime they are free to continue living there. Typical Reddit comment thread with the only people who know what they’re talking about getting downvoted.
PMSL. It’s crazy. Go on LegalAdviceUK and every single person being evicted is told to not respond to a section 21 if it’s invalid, if it is valid, ignore it and wait until the court summons (same for section 8 in this case), once the court sets a date to be evicted, wait until they’re physically evicted by landlord and police, then go to council for emergency housing, coz if they leave if their own free will prior to that, the council won’t help.
Tenants don’t have to leave until a court orders is, and it’s in their best interest to do that.
If the tenants do move to the new place, and it all to go smoothly, then OP will be incredibly lucky.
This only gets recycled here on reddit as well. Except you're REALLY desperate and have no way of renting another place, NO ONE wants to be evicted and then have to look for another rental with no hope of passing background checks/references.
Before I bought, I rented for 15 years, moved twice due to landlord selling (offered first to me on both occasions like OP's tenant). I just moved on to another rental with peace of mind, didn't even have to change letting agents.
Obviously... But why bother looking at a defective house now, which you might not be able to move into for another two years?
May as well wait for something better to come on the market, and if it doesn’t, come back to this one in a year or so.
Yes, but LegalAdviceUK is generally as rubbish as you'd expect. Despite their credentials it's roughly "let's hear what would the guys holding up the bar at the Dog and Duck have to say about this".
What you said is absolutely true. *If* the tenant wants to be ordered to pay the legal costs, have two six foot ex-bouncers come at 7:00am with have a locksmith tk break open the door and then walk in your house and intimidate and possibly drag you out without your belongings if you don't pack and remove them within 20 minutes. And *if* you want to go to the Council and either get put in a B & B, shared accommodation with drug addicts or be directed to one of the very few slum landlords who won't mind taking someone who has been evicted.
So yes, maybe it would work. But apart from specific circumstances (you're a single mum on Universal Credit already on the housing waiting list for a council house and getting a court order for eviction would bump you up the list quickly enough to not end up being shunted into B & B and don't mind the fact that Social Services start sniffing around to wonder why you've left your kids get homeless) it's *mad* advice.
It’s not bad advice at all. It’s exactly what citizen’s advice have told a male acquaintance of mine regarding his ongoing eviction from his flat.
They’ve advised him to put the few valuables he has into storage the week before the bailiffs are due. It’s the only way he can be made involuntarily homeless and therefore the council’s problem.
Getting a Mortgage? Mortgage company would organise a surveyor...if not, private surveyors can only advise and nothing falls back on them, its in writing on the contract.
Let them do their thing.
Surveys on houses are notoriously an arse-covering list of things which *could* be wrong, followed by the words "but we can't really tell."
If they're doing actual exploratory work, great.
OP should be prepared for extreme arse-covering in the phrasing of the report even *after* the excavation has been done though.
I predict "The house may well be subject to further subsidence and the structural integrity of the brick walls may have been compromised. We cannot guarantee that the house is safe nor can we confidently say that it will fall down."
Oh, I don't doubt it.
I'm not sure what you'd have to do in order to actually get a realistic idea of how safe it all is. A lot of digging, I'd assume.
I’d want to pay for this myself as if you did buy the property you’ll have no recourse on the surveyor if they’ve missed something as the vendor is their client not you.
Have you instructed it and the seller is simply transferring the payment to your engineer? Or is it basically their job from their engineer? The latter gives you no comeback at all.
That's why selling properties with these kinds of issues is difficult and usually requires a decent discount.
When i last sold a house, the buyer insisted on having an electrician come round and have my electricity turned off for eight fucking hours while he proceeded to rip every plug socket off the wall, damaging plaster as he went and basically leave my house a shit tip.
I didn't really have a choice if wanted to sell. I basically had to hope the buyer would still go through with it (they did, thankfully).
An EICR is far more common and much less intrusive than having your foundations excavated.
You could also have just declined and found another buyer. Or told the electrician to leave.
I’d imagine you’d better wait for the structural report from a qualified engineer rather than asking people on Reddit.
That being said I’m a structural engineer with 55 years of experience working with brickwork and I can tell you 100% that in this case
I saw something about this the other day. That is most likely caused by use of gritting salts on the path. The salt gets into the bricks and accelerates weathering.
As to whether it is a structural issue, I have no clue. But If it were my house I'd be sorting that out.
Agree. I usually get a really savvy builder to have a look, then if he’s not happy I don’t take it further. Surveyors / structural engineers will hedge their opinion so much it ends up not being worth much.
I mean, they're clearly not. A surveyor's job is to inspect and report issues that might require a specialist. They are not intended to be specialists or engineers themselves.
Seconded. Last survey I had done gave the roof a clean bill of health; 18 months later it had to be replaced because the timbers were rotten enough to be in danger of collapse. Surveyor claimed he "couldn't get sufficient access to view the roof timbers on the day of inspection" which wasn't made clear at the time. RICS and local trading standards backed him up.
Pretty sure I'll never bother again (unlikely to need a mortgage if I ever buy another property). What's the point?
“Could be a problem, might not be. We cannot possibly say due to the risk of you coming after us for compensation.”
Basically a big shrug from surveyors. They’re mostly useless.
I’ll bet you a thousand pounds the surveyor took a photograph. Gave some vague warnings to cover their own arse and then told OP to ask someone who knew what they were talking about.
I mean engineer and building surveyor are two different things. Would still be getting a full report of a highly recommended/ experienced building surveyor not just an engineer due to any overlapping issues that might not be structural.
Structural engineer here.
1-4 - looks like damage due to damp, causing the bricks to spall. If the damp issue has been rectified, I would suggest these can safely be repaired, however I would be carrying out trial pits around the affected areas to see if this issue worsens near the footings.
5-6 - almost certainly a thermal/moisture related crack judging by the pattern that’s been poorly repaired. May be related to the issue above. Mortar to be chased out and repointed.
7-8 - likely to be linked to the lintel below. Can’t tell when this property was built by the photos however the brickwork pattern suggests a boot lintel which would have likely acted in tandem with a timber window frame which would have assisted in the masonry support. When these frames get swapped for uPVC, you typically see a gradual failure in these lintels which can lead to the cracking you can see here. Resupport with a precast RC lintel
9 - seems indicative of historic movement, but as others have said in other comments, if this crack has stabilised in recent years, wouldn’t suggest any further action than localised mortar repair.
All that being said, this is only friendly advice - trust the surveyor/engineer who come to physically assess the property.
Just based on these photos, I wouldn’t touch this with a barge pole. I’m not a surveyor, but there’s a lot going on externally, and I wouldn’t want to risk hundreds of thousands of pounds. My gut tells me if this is what it looks like outside, it’s a lot worse under the bonnet.
At a minimum, get a full structural survey, but in general I’d not spend the hundreds on that survey and find something else
Thanks for the comment. I have got an Engineers Structural Report being done next week. As far as the internals are concerned it seems pretty good having been completely re plastered due to the underpinning. New windows in the last 3 years and it’s been rewired recently too. We will see what they say 🤞
There's a reason the saying "If it sounds too good to be true" exists. If you've got to cross your fingers to hope for the best, it's wiser to leave it alone - especially if you're only considering this house because it's what you want but can't afford *without* those issues (I.e. outside of your price bracket otherwise).
I'm with the commenter above. I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole.
What you're getting off the asking price now isn't worth the bills you'll pay later. Plastering to hide what's going on inside the house would have alarm bells ringing for me. Did they show you a receipt for the work on the underpinning? Can you Google the contractors number and call them to verify? (+ Check their reviews online etc and make sure they're not buddies on FB.) It's so easy for people to pull the wool over someone else's eyes when unsuspecting folks are happy to only look at the surface level info provided.
Cracks look consistent with subsidence, underpinning may have failed, or they just underpinned and didnt complete the cosmetic repairs after. Underpinning doesnt make the ground recover so it could be that.
Best bet is to have a surveyor or structural engineer report.
This is the case in 999/1000 “surveyor” reports. Truly baffles me that people still pay for these mugs to rock up with a damp meter and tell you it’s a bit damp.
Yes I do agree and would agree that ground conditions need checking too. The vendor has arranged a Engineers Structural Report to be done at my request and excavations start next week to check the underpinning
If they put in an insurance claim for the subsidence, they should have a certificate of structural adequacy, with details on how the subsidence was mitigated and what happened since mitigation. I would ask them to see this. But this also isnt a guarantee so dont take it as "all sorted"
I have requested the certificate of structural adequacy and unfortunately their office say it has been lost. The vendor has quite a lot of property so I wouldn’t be surprised if they have done this work themselves to be honest
Run.
Even if they had the certificate, this would need to be well into double digit percentages off the expected asking price to be worth considering.
And I'd want to pay for my own structural engineer, too, not have one who the vendor is paying and who might expect future work from the vendor, seeing as they seem to be a landlord with many properties.
I'd also ask myself why the landlord is giving up future years of rent on this specific one: their downside of keeping it must exist and outweigh that much money …
I'd think the opposite, if they have lots of other property they're happy sitting on why are they so keen to get rid of this one in particular? Are you super married to place? One thing I learned while house hunting is to keep hunting even when you think you've settled on one place - there's always stuff coming up for sale and you might see something else you love even more
Sounds like they know that the only realistic way for them to ever sell this property is to convince the next buyer that it is sound. What else could they do other than get a proper structural engineer report? They might not be desperate, but if they ever want this to be sold not as "pile of bricks" but as a "house" they need to get this reports, and any buyer would only be convinced by the report that is "fresh".
These are unlikely to be subsidence cracks they are small and coming from and around windows. Much more likely to be natural movement or, if anything, a failure in support around windows.
This just looks like spalling of the bricks. As you mentioned, it looks like water has entered the bricks and expanded.
I have always gone by the belief that any cracks, as long as the same crack isn't showing on the inside wall, and the crack doesn't go through a brick, but rather follows a mortar line, even if it follows zig zagging up mortar lines, there isn't much to worry about. Always get a full survey, pre warning the surveyor of any concerns you want them to pay particular attention to. As long as they give the all clear, you are covered. Just make sure those concerns are probable. Either in letter to the surveyors office, sent with a traced signed for service, or via email, when instructing the surveyors company. Insisting on a reply confirming this will be looked at as part of the survey.
There are a few nationwide survey companies in the UK now. Do your homework. Look for company reviews. Never just have a mortgage survey as that will tell you nothing other than the house exists.
The difference nowadays between a mortgage survey and a full survey, isn't as much as you may imagine. A mortgage survey runs around £150 - £250, depending on location, and a full survey, with detailed report and particular concerns investigate runs £500 - £1000 depending on size and location.
A regular 3 bedroomed house will be at the lower end of that scale.
Considering the amount of money involved in a house purchase, it really is prudent to buy the top survey. If not, you could be making an expensive mistake. Always make sure a survey company, and surveyor are members of a trade body such as RICS, CIOB, OR CABE.
Just in case you wasn't aware? The most basic survey carried out on behalf of a lender, doesn't even trouble the surveyor to get out of their car. They will simply pull up outside the property, glance a quick eye at the property. May, if they can be bothered, breakout a pair of binoculars to glance at the roof. Tick a box to confirm that there is a building, and it is standing, then get on their way to the next basic survey. A bank to lend money on a property, only wants to know that the property exists and is standing, unless it is wildly overpriced. Then they will question why and may warrant further investigation.
If you end up buying it. Make sure the building is insured for its full demolition and rebuild cost. A lot of people only consider the rebuild cost. The clearing of the site can often be just as much as the rebuild cost. Many insurers have blanket policies nowadays to more than cover both of these concerns. Make sure landslide and heave are covered. This also usually demands the biggest policy excess. Somewhere between £1000 - £2000 on the average 3 - 4 bed house.
This is your first priority. Obviously, accidental building cover is also desirable, especially if you enjoy DIY.
Contents is also very important, but buildings cover takes precedence every time.
In an ideal world you will buy each at the same time, but some people have to choose, when low on cash. Buildings first, then contents, always.
I hope this has been of some help?
A historic settlement in the foundation is something that you shouldn't worry about. If the house OP mentioned has had these cracks for years, then it's as safe as a house without cracks.
That happens when the builders build houses on made ground and don't compact it properly.
(Opening the can of worms now) But if the cracks are wider/larger then these have probably impacted on the structural integrity of the house.
This might also make it worse if one corner settles more than the other.
So OP should take your statement with a pinch of salt.
We pulled out of a house when the report came back to say it been underpinned. And your comment is exactly what we were told by numerous armchair property experts - including people who lived in identical houses on that street.
It sold to other buyers. Then a few years later, it began subsiding again and was on the market again for £50k less than they'd paid for it.
You said historic settlement is "something you shouldn't worry about." A statement which, in my opinion, is at perpendicular variation from the facts.
Good day.
That may well be the case but given the choice between a house with and without subsidence/crack repairs I'd also choose the one without. It's just down to probabilities. Also when it comes to selling, not only is the base of buyers statistically smaller, you are looking at a longer selling period.
3-4 years ago isn’t long enough for that to apply, for me
Sure if it subsided 20 years ago and hasn’t moved since then I might not be too fussed about it, but it’s gotta be at least a decade before that applies
I am not a structural engineer so you may well be totally correct but if I bought this place it would play on my mind whenever I saw any cracks, new or old, so I would be much happier not living here than if I saved the extra money to buy it.
My bil is a structural survey and had regularly said basically what the guy you're replying to has said. Old houses almost always had some subsidence shortly after being built, and after settlement isnt an issue.
Structural movement of a property can happen for a variety of different reasons and can happen any time after construction in certain circumstances. Just because movement is historic and hasn't moved in a certain period of time it doesn't mean it won't happen again.
It's always best to get anything like this checked by an engineer or home insurance may not cover anything in future.
On top of that, insurance for them is a nightmare. Will easily cost you triple what it otherwise would and probably wouldn't cover future risk of subsidence (used to work for an insurance company)
Not to mention the difficulty of getting any property with a history of subsidence insured.
I wouldn’t bother, 3-4 years is not long enough to give anyone confidence. Not to mention if the seller wasn’t seedy, they would be sharing the annual engineering reports that would 100% still be conducted if everything was above-board with OP.
The majority of the brickwork at a glance looks like blown faces on bricks, this happens when water gets into the small cracks on (mainly) textured bricks like yours, then its freezes and blows the fronts off, due to them being below damp id say this is definitely the case as escaping your property will dry the bricks out naturally or prevent wet bricks getting cold enough internally to freeze the moisture trapped. Hope this helps
It appears that frost damage is occurring, as it's all below the DPC line. If the brickwork is saturated with water and you have hard frost, all the water that has wicked up will expand when it changes state to ice. The forces are huge, it'll blow concrete apart.
Looks like it could cost a fortune if those bricks are blown, they are very badly damaged up to the damp proof course. Unless it’s a bargain and you are prepared for spending potentially large sums on correcting the structure avoid
That’s bottom part- the broken bricks, is called the DPC
From my understanding from my previous job, the DPC (damp proof course) is most effective when it is 2/3 bricks high from the ground- it seems that house suits this description.
Behind that wall should either be insulation, or nothing.
It’s a gap used between your inside wall and outside wall.
Anyway, back onto the question- is it an issue?
Yeah (Probably). Especially if you have foam insulation,
Because the cracks will get water inside of it and then wet the foam / fiber insulation- this will mean that the EPC rating of the house lowers, even if it has had the insulation installed.
Are there any solutions?
Don’t know.
But I hope my message helped.
Broken bricks = risk of damaged insulation
Damaged insulation = a house which doesn’t retain heat so easily.
A house that doesn’t retain heat easily = A low EPC
a low EPC = higher cost of heating and many more.
You can get this checked out for about 50 kwid on the govs website to see if you can get it fixed.
Look up home insulation,
They will send the inspector out.
*not a major professional in this realm, I just know about the bricks and insulation.*
Just to let everyone know that spalling brickwork like this will not affect the EPC rating of a property because this type of thing is not taken into account during an assessment.
I can't see much of a dpc on the pictures and the bricks are crumbling where they meet the ground level maybe due to the ground level being too high and built up in the past.
It's be avoiding this property also due to the movement cracks on the walls.
Could be a host of issues on those two problems alone.
There are no obvious signs of subsidence or any structural defects.
Damage like this is common on corner/wall junctions and is most likely some form of impact damage.
You can see the upper courses appear to have been struck by something, likely someone wheeling something etc also.
Very unlikely this is anything structural and the masonry repair can be done in less than an hour by a decent brickie.
Hope that helps.
This is a serious reply despite how it might sound - this house looks like shit? Damp concrete running up to damp blown bricks, cement tile window sills, weird window layouts, brick lintels instead of cement (and the upstairs one goes straight into the fascia for some reason?) - is there a bank robber's treasure hidden under this or something? It looks like it needs knocked down and started again.
Look like its had a lot of badly done remedial work. Other than that hard to say concrete path round the house is causing issues making the bricks blow.
Also in regard to the cracks,I guarantee they’re nothing serious as they are just through the muck work and not the bricks.
And considering the fact they’re at the windows it’s probably that there were no lintels above the windows,and when they replaced the windows/lintels it created a few cracks,happens all the time
Completely disagree with this. If you look closely you can see they are progressive. Most cracked areas are cracks through a new mortar already used to fix previous cracking and one area the cracks are showing through the 3rd repointing.
No if you look carefully it’s been previously re pointed to cover the cracks. It’s clearest on the last photo one course done and 2 bricks across from the yellow lintel.
I don’t think it has been repointed mate,if you look at that photo,I’d say that have just relayed the course below the top window when it was replaced (and they have installed a lintel above the-bottom window and relayed the 3 courses in front of it,all looks like original muck between the windows to me mate.
Anyway I’m sure he’ll get it sorted out,happy new year 👍
You are giving bad advice here. Of course there are lintels, they are Catnic so you can’t see them externally. Cracks in mortar don’t mean no problems, just that the problem is presented at the weakest point.
I think it is pretty obvious to anyone who lays Bricks that the top three courses (which include the new lintel) have clearly been re-laid after the window has been installed probably because CRACKS appeared
I get the feeling you don’t know what you’re talking about😂
As you can clearly see in the photo the top three courses above the window have been relayed at a later date which obviously implies that the catnick/lintels have been put in probably once the new windows have been installed, and no one addressed the existing crack
Which means cracks would have appeared before the lintels were put in.
I run a building company and we come across Jobs like this all the time
Appreciate your comments thank you! I agree with the statement about the cracks because they mainly follow the mortar so I could chase the mortar out and repoint and replace the lower bricks in sections as you mentioned so I don’t weaken the structure. I also noticed the work done around the windows with added weep vents etc.. I wouldn’t know what to do about the concrete to get to the brick below because I believe this is part of the underpinning. Or that’s what I have been lead to believe. Thanks
Yes, the cracks are definitely not structural they’re purely because they will always be movement if there’s no lintels above windows(which have clearly been replaced.
Also, I would be very surprised if that Concrete has anything to do with the underpinning as surely someone has not put in a meter deep of pure Concrete?
With underpinning you would normally dig down around a metre to the solid ground put in about 6/800 of Concrete but then you are supposed to leave a 50 mil gap to dry pack the next day with sharp sand as obviously wet concrete will shrink and makes the underpinning completely void.
Yes I believed underpinning was meant to be done this way with a special concrete with fibres to prevent so much shrinkage. It just makes no sense as to why you would pour concrete right up to the DPC with no fall on it and it’s clearly not had a float over it to smooth it off when it was poured either. I’ll see what the structural engineer says. Cheers
Maybe it was done in a different way than usual mate. Your property might be in a completely different area but yes you are right makes no sense. Why underpinning would come up to the DPC as the whole point is? The dam course has to be two courses above any ground level.
I’ll be interested to know the outcome, mate. Good luck.
Where all of the bricks are blown at the ground level,it’s probably the same below aswell.
Would be worth getting a builder to put a French drain in there,get rid of all the concrete.
Also you could also replace a couple of the bricks too,section by section.
(Builder here)we done a couple jobs exactly the same as this over the last few months)
Agreed. DPC is now too close to the ground level. That combined with the subsidence means I wouldn’t touch this with a barge pole. There are too many issues that could potentially cost a lot of money.
I find the general Reddit replies baffling.
1/4 are jokes about why you're asking in Reddit.
1/4 tell you that general surveys are useless.
1/4 tell you that your engineering study will be useless (will it be?)
Absolutely no insight whatsoever of causes or insight from experience. Remember that this is like asking a room of anonymous 15 year olds what they think.
You might get some better experience in the subreddit for UK DIY where there is some buildings work experience. But yeah, probably best to wait for some more information because this is like me asking a random teenager on the street to comment on my home mortgage.
If there is any part of you that thinks buying this property is a good idea then you sir are crazy. Those cracks throughout the entirety of the external wall are bot a good sign. I think it’s a very risky buy.
It’s mainly due to the location and the fact that I can build a whole new property to the side of it or extensively extend this current property. It’s the first place to come up for sale here in 12 years
Indicates a long term problem with salt intrusion and rising damp. Damp moves the salt and the salt shatters the brick when it crystallises.
The concrete poured around it indicates it is a long term problem.
Everything is something to worry about when purchasing a house. I used to be so wistful about buying houses until my ex showed me how they bought property and wow… You should be worried about every little thing unless you want to be fkd over in future…
My parents house had subsidence and you would be hard pressed to find any evidence it happened.
Lot of this looks amateurish, which makes me wonder about the quality the underpinning
it is fixable you just have to do a couple at a time. Might as well use engineering bricks.
I had to do basically the whole bottom row allong the front because it was under the concrete which we removed because of damp.
Yes, I would treat this as something that needs proper investigation, not something to ignore.
A few points stand out:
1. Multiple cracks
There isn’t just one isolated crack. You can see cracking in different locations and directions, which can indicate historic movement rather than simple cosmetic failure of mortar.
2. Crumbling brickwork at the base
The deterioration at the bottom course could be caused by prolonged moisture exposure, but at a corner this can also be a stress point, where loads are transferred downwards. Corners are often where movement shows first.
3. Corner pressure / load concentration
The damage at the corner could be consistent with structural load bearing down unevenly, particularly if there has been past settlement or ground movement.
4. Possibility of historic underpinning
The suggestion that the property may already have been underpinned is important. Underpinning itself isn’t necessarily a problem if it was done properly, but it changes the risk profile of the property.
Crucially:
If underpinning has taken place, the buyer should:
• Ask for full documentation (engineer’s reports, completion certificates, guarantees).
• Confirm which insurer covered the underpinning.
• Ensure that the same insurer is willing to continue cover.
Many new insurers will either refuse to quote or apply heavy exclusions for pre-existing subsidence or underpinning, which can become a serious issue later.
Bottom line:
This isn’t an automatic “walk away”, but it absolutely warrants:
• A structural engineer’s inspection (not just a standard survey), and
• Full clarity on any historic subsidence or underpinning and its insurance position before proceeding.
Ignoring it could store up expensive problems down the line.
It is a potential can of worms i would avoid tbh unless it is super cheap.
If your lucky you may get away with just raking out the mortar with an angle grinder (you can get an aattatchment for this) where the joints are , inserting helefix bars and re pointing with a high poly mortar premix (get a good chemical bond as well as mechanical)
Yes. My advice, please dont buy it. Plenty more houses about with no structural issues. Let someone else inherit this poorly constructed house with drainage issues
Does the previous owner have the COSA? (Certificate of structural adequacy.) If an insured has undertaken subsidence works, once works are finished they should provide a COSA which briefly outlines what caused tue subsidence and what was done to fix it. This will be useful for you when you get home insurance in the future. As any pre-existing subsidence will not be covered. But if the COSA proves it’s been fixed, this shouldn’t be an issue.
The previous owner should also have copies of the site investigations the insurers did to determine a subsidence claim, which will be useful for the structural engineer to see and compare.
Looks more along the lines of settlement to me (ba-dum-tsh), the spalling below the damp course is because of the concrete slab outside so either get rid of the pad around the perimeter of the house to a width of 100mm and put an ayco drain in or think about a resin path and/or patio instead.
Without reading too far into the comments - my guess is you want to put a double or sizeable single extension on the back and you/ structural/ architectural types are worried the work will upset the original structure?
I did state the bricks had blown but I was looking for more insight on whether it could be water damage due to retention because of the lack of run off due to the concrete etc. I am aware and have a structural engineer booked to do a report but just wanted some more insight
Picture 5 showing the subsidence crack having been filled in. You have blown bricks to the right of it and on the left they are fine. It's not standing water that's the issue, the subsidence has crushed the bricks on the right hand side.
It's most likely caused by water, you hunch looks to be correct mate. Either water pools against the house (no moss growth though, so less likely to be that) or the water cannot escape under the ground through the concrete and underpinning. It sits under the top skin of the brick and slowly destroys the bricks when it freezes and thaws.
Personally I would avoid.
Given the location of the bricks I'd assume it's not the subsidence. It's that concrete. I'd say avtrue solution would involve removing all the concrete so factor that in when costing. It's either the concrete trapping moisture against the lower bricks or its the splashback off the concrete making them too wet or indeed it's both. No matter which, the concrete has to come out.
If you view other properties bear in mind concrete shouldn't really touch the buildings like that, even if the bricks haven't started going yet.
Good luck with the structural survey!
I initially thought water damage for the bricks but photo 5 where the damage is one side of the crack only would lead me to it being related to the subsidence. There's a very clear line between bricks that are damaged and bricks that aren't, water wouldn't do that.
Standing Water over time can damage the bricks like that, drainage blocked somewhere. The pattern of clean concrete near the damage might be indicative that moisture is being absorbed by the bricks. Where as the rest is sticking around long enough for green matter to grow. As for subsidence I know nothing about it. But with houses being built on clay, and the fashion for the front garden being covered over, coupled with climate variability causing shifting of clay basis. Then the ticking time bomb of climate change will cause subsidence on greater scale throughout these blessed isles.
Consult a professional lol.... Good luck with your search !!
The company has unfortunately gone bust which isn’t a great sign! I have an Engineer coming to do a structural report. They start excavation to check the underpinning etc next week.
They are very lenient on underpinning and said it shouldn’t be an issue. Nothing highlighted on their Mortgage Valuation Survey either. I have got an engineers structural report being done for my own piece of mind though
I wouldn't touch tbh to many variables - differential cracking etc,
Post states property has been underpinned... And your still seeing this cracking? Not good tbh
Not sure why brickwork has spalled so badly, maybe concrete ground level is too high/ close to dpc.
In short, so many questions and queries.. Up to you but I wouldn't be happy to proceed given property previous history.
(Retired Building Control Surveyor)
Might also want to check the integrity of the window lintels there. Our house showed similar signs of cracks from the top corners of the windows because the lintels had rusted and expanded.
FWIW our surveyor was shit and missed pretty much everything important. I had a friend in the trade come round to check the place. Spotted a load of stuff the surveyor missed.
This \*looks\* like the crumbling stops where the dampcoursing is. That's your biggest clue to what this is.
Looks like you've got damp in the brick, it's frozen (and freezing water expands) and fractured the brick.
There's a treatment for this, injecting stuff in high pressure into the brick, I forget what it is called
So it looks like they have used facing bricks below the dpc. Normally you use engineering bricks as they are less likely to blow like this when exposed to moisture. It shows the DPC is working though as they are not blown above the doc. but they may need replacing. For the cracks get a structural engineer to take a look.
Hey, fellow underpinned house buyer here! We bought a house that was underpinned 20+ years ago. Everything was done via a council and everything looked okay via our reports etc. We also had a 20 year warranty alongside full plans and certificates. If it’s only been done 3-4 years ago and it looks like that, and based on your comments about the company going bust with no certification of repairs, I would definitely walk away. Also, insurance will be a nightmare (i’m talking up to 4-5x more than an average house) and even for us was a slight pain after all these years. Just remember, the point of any remedial works is to ensure the house will never subside again. You don’t want the constant stress / anxiety of monitoring everything. Plus any potential future structural repairs aren’t cheap!
You mentioned the historic subsidence presumably? Wait on the structural engineer report. But as one person pointed out it will always be their in the back of your mind.
Shouldn’t there be a lintel above the window in picture 6?
It looks like there might have been a lintel and someone’s replace with a new row of bricks and that might explain some of the cracking above.
Insurance!
We bought a previously underpinned property with a mortgage. At completion, there were difficulties obtaining insurance. In the end, our mortgage company had to insure us as no one else would. And when we sold the property, we had to sell it with our insurance policy.
Concrete should not be straight up to house/bricks this is probably sucking water up into bricks as it's nowhere to go then frost cracks the face of the brick. There really should be a gap between so that water can drain into the soil. Could be a big job to break all that concrete up to sort.
Breaking out concrete with a hydraulic drill is a piece of piss. But there will be a lot of vibrations very close to the house. Really, really need to start away from the house and clear the big pieces away from the house before you get close to it and use a chisel attatchment and not a point.
I haven't done it before so wasn't sure how much work.i guess it seems a shame to rip the whole thing out just because a gap wasn't left but I would agree the vibrations would make it highly risky to just create a small channel.
Unfortunately I believe the concrete is part of the shoddy underpinning that has been done previously so I’d be more inclined to go over the top of it again but with a fall and drainage to prevent water sitting by the bricks etc or skim off the top and replace with slabs and drainage
I doubt it's part of underpinning it looks like they wanted a path/patio and layed it. It might have been done by the underpinners to make good what was there they had to break up to do the work but I doubt it's part of the actual structural underpinning work. In other words rip up and have it done properly with some gravel between the house and concrete.
Cracks in mortar - not so much of a worry, but the cracks in the brick would give me serious pause. Those ‘repairs’ look terrible and I would be looking for any certification of work done on the underpinning (we had a subsiding house, built on a former work site) and it was expensive to rectify and every time a new crack would appear (indoors and outdoors) we worried. I wouldn’t buy another house that had a hint of subsidence. Be very wary. Unless you’re getting this property for a notably reduced rate for the area. You may have trouble insuring it too, (without a massive excess, think £1000 upwards or a specialist policy) and you *have* to declare subsidence, which in turn may affect a mortgage if you can’t get properly insured. All in all I think this will be very expensive.
Is it really worth the risk, stress, hassle and work if you buy it and there are issues further down the line given the clear indication that it’s likely something isn’t right currently? I would run away.
It’s the first place that’s come up for sale in this area in 12 years. Unfortunately it really is about the location for this purchase. I will wait to hear off the structural engineer and take it from there
It was underpinned within the last five years, and there's no report from that time as to what was done? So it has to be dug up for investigations?
I've got Tesco receipts older than five years.
Exactly, this is one of my concerns because I think the vendor could have done this work themselves. They just stated the paperwork and certification has been lost. This is why a structural engineers report is going to be done
Type 3 RICS survey required. Cost approx £1500. The property needs to be surveyed holistically taking into account it's site and surroundings.
Qualified building surveyor over 15 years experience here.
Diagonal cracking through brick and mortar consistent with structural movement to the corner.
Lintels replaced causing weakness and cracking to weakest points.
Buyer beware.
You may have leverage for price negotiation with a good surveyors report.
Good luck
2 different issues, one small one potentially serious.
The blown bricks at the base are simply caused by water saturating the bricks. Just bear in mind there might be more blown bricks underneath it.
The cracks under the windows etc are caused by subsidies. Are there any visible cracks inside? It will still 100% require some serious investigation.
The good news is, you will definitely get this house at a discounted price. The bad news is, the subsidies could happen again in the future
Thanks for the comment. As far as the internals are concerned it seems pretty good having been completely re plastered due to the underpinning. New windows in the last 3 years and it’s been rewired recently too. Will have to look deeper though in case it’s all just masking a further serious issue
No problem!! I'm no expert but I've bought a 50 yrs old house and an array of issues to deal with as well.
Hopefully the plastering wasn't redone too recently(to cover more issues), but that's down to the owners honesty. Best of luck!
Looks like it is caused by water, frost, unfreezing on a surface that has a lot of water, bricks don't do well in water, have no idea how Italy and Holland do it , but that's what you want ,not untreated brick , and there is no drainage or plastic covering, which indicates it may be deeper , I would get an engineers report of the underpinning , on the bright side I would normally get this repaired before sake as this is a price negotiation lever .
If this is where subsidence is , I think you have your answer.
Thanks for the comment. I have got an Engineers Structural Report being done next week. They will be excavating to check depths and ground conditions etc
Judging by the dabs of adhesive either side of the crack in picture 8, then it looks like someone has attached a gauge to monitor the movement/subsidence. If this was the case, then maybe you can ask the homeowner for a copy of the report? If they deny all knowledge or are evasive then I think you’ve answered your own question…
As others have said a bit of movement is inevitable and cracks can be made worse by filling them with a mortar mix that is too strong and doesn’t give… Regardless, and assuming the report didn’t say anything further investigation by a SE would definitely be recommended - just ask lots of questions.
The damage to the bricks is not a problem in and of itself, just a result of inadequate drainage and the bricks being constantly wet during the winter. Judging by the construction the house appears to have been built in the 60’s/70’s or even the 50’s, so not really surprising. I don’t think I’d fair too well standing in a bucket of cold water for weeks at a time… And as ever everything is disappointingly built down to a price so bare that in mind…
Good luck.
There's definitely some erosion going on due to water splashing back up. You can see the bricks are all rounded on the edges.
That's certainly part of the story but I can't comment on subsidence
That corner where the bricks are blown is a major red flag, I don’t have any formal education in engineering or architecture I’m just a layman, the concrete done there was clearly laid after the ware on those bricks, so why wasn’t it all replaced, which would make me question how good was the under pinning, why would you put concrete right up against a brick wall like that, it encourages rising damp.
I would not touch this unless you are willing to undertake the work to fix it
Engineer is coming to do a structural report. They start excavation to check the underpinning next week. Thought I’d ask mainly about the brickwork for some more insight
Engineer is coming to do a structural report. They start excavation to check the underpinning next week. Didn’t realise it was illegal to ask for some insight beforehand like
This is why land registry should also register structural changes and repairs. What was wrong, what was done, what was the outcome, with photos. We have the tech for it.
Engineer is coming to do a structural report. They start excavation to check the underpinning next week. Thought I’d ask for some insight before hand. Thanks for the comment….
Not really anything to worry about them old rustic bricks always seem to perish especially low level
Risk renewing the bricks is breaking the old dpc as it then has to be lapped preferably 150mm
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