What turboprops are feasible to own and consistently operate out of a 2100ft runway?
Posted by skylaneguy@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 84 comments
So far the Meridian, P210 Silver Eagle, Kodiak 100, or a Turbine Bonanza all seem capable. My mission is 2-4 people, light bags, 180kts+, icing capability and radar are a big plus.
Unfortunately, I have zero operational experience with any of the above mentioned planes but I do have ~700 hours in the PC12 which would do 2000ft or less fairly easily.
Would any of those realistically work? I’ve got a hangar big enough to fit something with a wingspan <50ft. The caveat is that it’s at an airport with limited runway length and 50ft+ obstacles on both ends (with a decent cut outs). One of the runways is displaced about 200ft the other has full length available.
Thoughts?
KJ3040@reddit
The Kodiak seems like the winner. But you asked for suggestions. The Lancair Evolution will do this with healthier margins than the Meridian with a better useful load than the Bonanza and the P210. It’ll go a lot faster than the Kodiak. Obviously no FIKI, but I think I’ve seen some with de-ice.
If you thought the PC-12 could comfortably do it, with 30% less weight and 15% less power on the same motor: you’d probably feel comfortable doing it in an Epic.
Trick-Problem1590@reddit
Some P210's have RSTOL kits which improve short field by quite a bit. Here is mine out of Waldronaire which it did quite easily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVD8J9_Fi8 I competed against a Kodiak on the Texas STOL competition and performance was very similar except the P210 is pressurized.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
What’s your experience been with the gear on the 210?
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
The Kodiak is nice… like my 182 on steroids.
My only “hesitation” is that 176kts on almost 46gph seems a bit dumb. No real way to take advantage of the flight levels either without being on o2.
Junior-Special5159@reddit
do they not make pressurized kodiaks?
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
I don’t think so. They also have the TKS wing which is meh
Cessnateur@reddit
You've been presented with a solution that meets every one of your stated requirements, though. Introducing additional goalposts like fuel efficiency and high-altitude capability suggests you'll only be satisfied by a mythical aircraft that has no compromises at all.
Reasonable_Air_1447@reddit
Icing and radar make this a complex ask. Budget? Do you need pressurisation? Are you willing to go experimental?
Frosty_Piece7098@reddit
My vote is the PC12. I’ve done 2000 feet with 6 people and light fuel, though it was a bit tight. 2-4 would work as long as you aren’t trying to fly 8 hours. If the displaced threshold gives you 1800 feet and there’s 50 foot trees right at the end of the runway that would give me pause.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
There’s about a 500ft cutout so it’s not too bad. I can normally have it down about 100ft past the numbers.
Frosty_Piece7098@reddit
That doesn’t sound too bad. I’d be more concerned about takeoff than stopping.
anonymeplatypus@reddit
I would have done the pc12 if it wasn’t for the 50ft hangar, as the wings are 52ft iirc.
Caravan might be to tall (high) also for a lot of hangars.
I am a big fan of the meridian so that would be my recommendation as well as the tbm variants
Maybe a pc6?
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
Kodiak 900 will give you the speed and performance you’re looking for, with a 45’ wingspan.
Kon3v@reddit
Shortbus caravan will do it but you won't get the speed. Kodiak 100 will do it with ease. I've taken loaded K100s out of a grass strip of similar length but with a big hump in the middle.
InstrumentRated@reddit
I used to share a hangar with a Caravan flown by pro pilots. It had all de-ice equipment but the pilots said it was a pig in ice and not fun at all.
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
Notoriously bad in ice. For some reason there are a handful of evangelists who scream that it’s fine, but there are far more who say it isn’t
LateralThinkerer@reddit
IIRC there's a long-ago voice recording out there of a UPS Caravan caught in freezing rain and the conversation W/ATC as she's iced up and inverted at least once until pulling it out below freezing at low altitude. If that doesn't make you pucker just by listening nothing will.
tundragoose@reddit
IIRC that was a situation of her own design, not any fault of the Caravan; she was flying along in icing conditions with none of the deicing equipment being used/ turned on.
LateralThinkerer@reddit
You could be right - long time ago and I don't have any subsequent report on the incident.
Junior-Special5159@reddit
bering air lost a caravan last year in icing conditions. but the report was kinda iffy. said it was something like 1000lbs over gross for the conditions it was flying in
always_gone@reddit
A girl burned one into a smoke stack in ID a couple years ago. Was the second approach and she was below glide and mins, heard she was really trying to get down out of the icing.
One of my friends was coming back home in a twin turbine Beech and a Caravan was behind him on the same frequency. Heavy icing, but the Beech handled it fine. The Caravan was unable to maintain speed and had to keep requesting lower and lower altitudes to stay above icing speed. Supposedly the stall horn was audible in the background during several of his transmissions. Would genuinely hate to fly a Caravan in real mountain weather.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
I’ve got 16ft of clearance on the door. Once I get it inside it opens up to 30ft.
It’s a 60x60 toy box.
Substantial-Story129@reddit
Ruebo Skylanes rule
Substantial-Story129@reddit
*Turbo
Colder_Heavens@reddit
A friend at my airport has a silver eagle. It doesn’t have a ton of useful load with full fuel.
Out of everything you listed I’d feel most comfortable in the Kodiak because it performs so well in slow flight and has a relatively slow approach speed.
The lower drag you go the less margin for error you have with adverse weather or high density altitude.
A Kodiak is going to be far more capable than a turbine bonanza or a silver eagle with useful load too. You give up cruise speed but that would be worth it to me in your situation.
Another option would be a turbine bearhawk 5 (I think you’d be the first?) or a PC-6. I don’t think either is FIKI though.
I’d call Mark at 11 Aviation (worldofmark on instagram) and talk to him. He probably knows more about short field performance of turbine aircraft than 99% of pilots in the US.
Bitter-Eagle-4408@reddit
I’ve been looking at building a bear hawk for a couple years now, I’d love to see a turbine
Colder_Heavens@reddit
It would be super capable!
ethanlegrand33@reddit
Murphy Moose has a turbine option. Turbine Motor Conversions in Washington state would be who to contact.
tundragoose@reddit
There has never been a FIKI PC-6
Definitely not a 180 kt airplane
Wingspan is greater than 50 feet
3 Strikes, it's out.
Hemmschwelle@reddit
I routinely arc my 15m (49.2 feet) wingspan glider through a 40 foot wide hanger door into a 1.5x standard T-hangar. Human power only. The leading edge presses against a pivoting device that spreads the pressure and prevents damage to the leading edge. IDK if this would work for a heavier aircraft. You might do it with some sort of powered tow bar.
We use this same arcing technique with a 52 feet 6 inches (16 m) wingspan glider, though we use three people since the clearances are tighter.
'Arcing technique' means the tires trace a curved path on the floor until the wings are past the door. Then we push it straight back.
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
PC-12 but I suspect price is the reason you’re not naming them.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
Actually it’s wingspan. My hangar door is 50ft wide 😭
Hour_Tour@reddit
See another guy's reply about gliders somewhere else in this thread. If it fits within the hangar wall you can usually get it in by arcing/turning it in. Or on wheels sideways like suggested in this thread.
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
Hmmm. Put it on a dolly and park it sideways!
shttypylote@reddit
Lol. Cool story, bruh. With that level of discretionary liquidity, the hangar door isn't a problem.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
I’m not opening up my hangar to plop a new door in. I’m also in an HCOL area where hangars are incredibly hard to find.
If it’s not a t-hangar or a shared hangar good luck finding something.
unnecessary_overhead@reddit
TMCX Helio Courier turbine conversion
KingofRoam@reddit
Idk, I’ve got some time (not a lot) in a Malibu and 2100 would be tight and or very warm brakes.
SnooHesitations1718@reddit
Lancair LX7
NoGuidance8609@reddit
You didn’t say what density altitudes you’ll be dealing with but a Kodiak will do it easily. So will a C208 and the PC12. I’ve operated all at very high DA’s into shorter strips. The actual 50’ obstacle might be an issue depending how far off the threshold they are. Although Epic, TBM, PA46 series will do it they aren’t ideal and the high hull value will be an issue. One thing to consider though will be insurance. There is a high likelihood that an underwriter will pass on the risk if that’s the airport you will be based at.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
They’re probably about 200-300ft off the threshold.
And I’m typically operating at sea level. In the summer on a hot day DA can get up to 2-3k.
Prestigious-Bend1662@reddit
Cessna Caravan, Pilatus PC-12, many others could do this safely, especially with the light load you require. I knew a guy who regularly operated an MU-2 out of a 2,000 ft strip. He might have been in trouble with an engine failure but, of course, all the single engine planes would also be in trouble if they lost the engine.
EricP51@reddit
Does it need to be pressurized? If so the Kodiak and TBonanza are out.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
More of a nice to have.
Junior-Special5159@reddit
what about a DHC beaver with a turbine conversion? idk what the cruise speed is but they can handle short strips
zbot11@reddit
My limited 210 experience left me thinking it’s not a great short field performer. Obviously not as much power as the Silver Eagle, so I don’t know.
Turbine Bonanza is an interesting pick! Actually a good short field plane, no worries about plopping it down and hurting the gear. Feels more suited than chugging along at 175 knots with empty seats in the Kodiak.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
Yea im really more interested in a baby turbine
pokerpaul12@reddit
None
quakefiend@reddit
Caravan or Kodiak
flyingron@reddit
My IO-550 came out of a brand new Bonanza that got a turbine conversion. I parked next to one of these things at OWD one day. I think you're biggest problem that even when you put on the bds tip tanks, you're still rather fuel constrained.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
Yea that was my concern but with my wife’s bladder we very rarely do more than two hour legs… maybe three.
I think I read that the turbine Bo has about 3.5 hours of endurance with an IFR reserve.
bhalter80@reddit
As a Bo guy, I love the airframe but I wouldn't want to intentionally make it a snowflake by converting it with a turbine. I believe it also significantly reduces the Vne down to Vno if I remember what I've heard correctly.
Is the preference for a turbine single operational cost? King Air 100s and C90s are around fairly cheap
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
No more so operational complexity.
2100ft isn’t a balanced field and I’m not looking to be concerned with VMC.
bhalter80@reddit
I would say what about a 208 but it won't do 180
flyingron@reddit
Yes, but you have to make sure you get up high.
Flaman20@reddit
DHC-7
Pradooo@reddit
C130H
HotPast68@reddit
The Kodiak 100 sounds great for the mission. It’s a little bit on the slower side cause it’s a bit draggy but that also means it flys well slow. It’ll do 2000’ takeoff distance over 50 foot obstacle at max gross up to about 40C from sea level. I’ve got an uncontrolled version of the AFM I can send you the takeoff and landing performance charts. I’ve only got 10 hours in it but know some people who do some amazing stuff with one
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
That would be great! Would you mind DMing me?
HotPast68@reddit
Just DMd
m5er@reddit
"PC12 which would do 2000ft or less fairly easily."
Is that really true? Seems like you would depend on favorable conditions and would be comfortable having no margin of error.
appenz@reddit
In the NG, 2000 ft is doable in pretty much any condition. Not much margin of error.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
I used to fly it about 400hrs/yr so I was fairly competent.
I’ve taken it into many places less than 2000ft and it wasn’t an issue- just not at max gross.
DannyRickyBobby@reddit
I know of an operator the does 1600’ with PC-12’s. They’re not max gross but they’re not close to empty either. See level also and not much obstacle except for a small wall on one end.
That all being said this is not for the average pilot.
thegolfpilot@reddit
I operate a pc-12 out of a 2600’ dirt runway at 4500msl. We treat 2000’ tas a max for book takeoff distance. 2000’ allows us gross weight up to 86F with calm winds. I had a ngx out of rhv recently running about 10,350 with full seats and bags and enough fuel to go 2 hours with reserve and even with a rolling start I was off the ground just past C taxiway.
DanTheAirplaneMan@reddit
Fully loaded NGX on a hot day, at sea level, no headwind, you're looking at 1600 ft ground roll and 2700 ft over an obstacle. Four people, bags, and enough fuel to fly a few hundred miles with IFR reserves, and you're looking at less than 2000 ft to clear the obstacle. So unfavorable conditions work, but you're right, not much margin for error. On the other hand, a little bit of wind, a non-scorching day, and it gets more favorable.
ImmortanBen@reddit
I think there's a couple turbine 206s floating around out there. I'd check those out. Maybe a turbine 210
Sunsplitcloud@reddit
If you had a little longer of a runway, I'd say get an Epic. I operate mine out of 2700' with medium obstacles on both sides and never use any brakes. 320kts easy all temps. does full gas (1200nm) and with 1100 pounds in the cabin. Epic has the same size motor as the PC12 (PT6A-67A), at 76% of the weight. It has insane power to weight. Routine climb out at 3500fpm plus. If you're in the market for one, call the factory and see if they can give you a field assessment for your situation.
SATSewerTube@reddit
Just curious, how’s the p-factor on a go around? I used to fly a Meridian and TBM-950; the former wasn’t bad but the latter could get squirily especially if you weren’t paying attention or had a last minute go around.
Sunsplitcloud@reddit
At low speeds, most notably on the take off roll, the torque definitely pulls you left, so you need to set rudder trim to 75% right and have a heavy right foot as you start adding power. Once in the climb, that mostly goes away, and just slight rudder pressure is needed with that trim setting.
However once in cruise the trim moves to full left to counteract the asymmetry and right hand canting of the engine that was designed in so initial climb didn’t need even more rudder.
So if you click off the AP and leave the trim alone at full left and then initiate a go around you will need a lot of right foot. And if you really add a lot of power in a hurry (not advised or necessary) and aren’t prepared you could get yourself moving left quickly if you’re not paying attention.
I reset the trim to T/O position manually in the final few miles to counteract that risk and just add a little left foot to balance it out. Also a Go Around only needs about 70% power to get you climbing 1500fpm dirty. Full power is 3700 ft-lb of torque which is a ton. So the procedure is to add your power to 70% or so, get climbing (happens right away) then bring up flaps and gear and then reset your power as necessary.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the info. I might just do that.
sennais1@reddit
425
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
Huh?
Sage_Blue210@reddit
Cessna 425 (Conquest or Corsair, I forget). But that would be a twin.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
Got it, really trying to stay with a single.
OddCockpitSpacer@reddit
It really sounds like you’re talking Kodiak with that mission. Everyone that I’ve spoke with that has operated both Kodiak and caravans all say they prefer the Kodiak if that helps.
BigBird50N@reddit
Draco would do this.
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
RIP
66hans66@reddit
Does it habe to be a single?
skylaneguy@reddit (OP)
Yes, ideally.
Accelerate stop distances aren’t so favorable on 2100ft.
Greedy_Guarantee7348@reddit
C208 would meet most of that criteria (except maybe the speed). I operated them out of a 1450' strip without any issues
Sinorm@reddit
Lancair LX7 can theoretically do it with a 50 ft landing distance of 1800 ft, but it would be tight to do that as your home field. Otherwise it meets all your requirements: fast as hell, de-ice, even pressurized as a bonus.
aterx@reddit
If i could choose, a PC-6 but i think thats a tad large for your hangar
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
So far the Meridian, P210 Silver Eagle, Kodiak 100, or a Turbine Bonanza all seem capable. My mission is 2-4 people, light bags, 180kts+, icing capability and radar are a big plus.
Unfortunately, I have zero operational experience with any of the above mentioned planes but I do have ~700 hours in the PC12 which would do 2000ft or less fairly easily.
Would any of those realistically work? I’ve got a hangar big enough to fit something with a wingspan <50ft. The caveat is that it’s at an airport with limited runway length and 50ft+ obstacles on both ends (with a decent cut outs). One of the runways is displaced about 200ft the other has full length available.
Thoughts?
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