Wagon enthusiasts are a vocal group partially because it's easy to say you want and would buy something when it's just hypothetical and you know the auto maker won't call your bluff. But if there were suddenly a dozen models in the US market most would fail because the demand among actual paying customers isn't there.
First, wagons just aren't popular with the general public no matter how much enthusiasts think otherwise. And second, even with enthusiasts it would be "it doesn't have as much space as it should" or "it has the wrong engine" or "not enough power" or "no manual" or any number of other design decisions that cause it to languish on the sales floor.
Well realistically how much is this thing going to cost, versus how much money the average redditor can afford to spend on a car?
It’s not exactly some big gotcha to say average people can’t afford an above average priced car…
Price is irrelevant, they could price it at $35k and you'd still have people on here bitching about something or another and why they won't purchase it as a result. Probably complain about the Genesis dealer experience or something. That's just how this sub goes.
Price is absolutely relevant considering you’re talking about people buying it lol
Without it being on the market and costing something we have literally no way of knowing how willing people are to actually buy it
I explained its irrelevant because look at the Elantra N, literally an /r/cars wet dream and it's not selling that well. Your GTI is the same way, reasonably priced, hatchback and manual (up until the recent refresh) and VW moved 7500 units in 2023.
For all the hyping up this sub does for specific models, it wouldn't matter if they gave these things away they'd just bitch and complain about something.
I think those both sold perfectly well
I wouldn’t expect most people to pay $7000 over a standard Elantra to get the N version. But for enthusiasts apparently Hyundai is selling what they anticipated and are happy with the number
Ford moves 500,000 or so F150s a year, and Toyota moves about the same in Rav 4s. Both cars this sub shit on endlessly. 7500 units comparably is pathetic.
Point is, this sub is so out of touch with the actual state of the market.
Seriously, people like this guy are intentionally ignoring reality just to feel superior.
"Oh, you're not going to go out and buy a $80,000 - $150,000 car, before dealer markups, *tomorrow*? What, eating and having shelter is taking up literally all of your money? That means nothing! I knew it, you don't actually want this! You're all talk! **hYpoCrITe!!1!**"
If this came out at the same time as the Scout, I don't know what I'd choose. My heart is pretty well set on the Scout at this point, but dammit that G90 is insane.
I would very much love to buy that, the problem is that I probably could only afford it used and I am not even sure about that.
For example, the Volvo V90 I am driving now: In its last model year (2025) the base option would be the V90 T6 which sets you back €73,000 ($85,500) in Germany. If you opt for the T8 in the Ultra Trim that’s €10,000 ($11,700) more. Even if the dealer grants you a 20 % rebate, this is unaffordable for most people. The average new car in Germany in this year cost €41,000 ($48,000) which already is a massive hike from 2019 when it was €30,000 ($35,000). Of course, the G90 is a luxury car positioned above V90 so it is going to be more expensive but with the way the average new car price has outpaced the average salary and cost of living, I am not holding my breath when it comes to buying one of these used *if* they ever make it to production.
I would. I'm a big Genesis fan (though I don't own one yet.) I don't love their EV offerings yet, but I'm a big G90 fan - I'd put it above my last-ten Merc S-class in terms of luxury. Something like this would be verrrrrry interesting to me.
On a related note, it's wild that Genesis is planning to make a Magma G90 plus a wagon and coupe, whereas the A8/7-series/S-class never got their respective full in-house tuning works.
Yeah but what I referring to the lack of a RS8 and M7. I guess there is a M8 sedan more recently if you can consider that analogous enough to the 7-series
The current S63 AMG is a pointless harsh-riding, synthetic sounding thing that ruins the point of the vehicle. It's best thought of as a long wheelbase 4 door AMG GT. Rant aside, AMG have sprinkled their formula on it.
It is but until BMW makes an M7 Touring, Audi makes an S8 Avant, or Mercedes makes an S63 Wagon, (those would be so rad) the M5 Touring is the closest point of comparison.
Still closer to a 7-series though. Well, it splits the difference in overall length between the to but it’s only 1 inch off of the 7 in terms of wheelbase and is longer overall than the S-Class, so it’s definitely in the upper tier size-wise.
Well yeah, it’s on my driveway as we speak.
I agree it’s probably a bit too big though. Perhaps they should have made it 10cm shorter, especially the hood, it’s like 1/3rd of the car.
On the other hand, for me personally, it’s a great blend of practicality, design and fun.
Mine is not a hybrid, it’s full electric.
But yeah, the weight is noticeable. Especially if you compare it to much lighter cars directly, for example my previous cars were a Model 3 and a 3 series.
All in all, the car handles quite well though. But it’s definitely not a sports car.
This thing looks insanely good. If Genesis actually builds it, they’re gonna steal a ton of buyers from BMW.
And yeah, if you ever get serious about one of these later on, run the VIN somewhere like VIN.org first — modern cars hide a lot in their history.
If only these brands would make a fucking affordable wagon instead of only making wagons (for the US) in the $100k range. People who can afford a $120k+ M5 can afford to just have multiple cars, so the do-it-all nature of a fast wagon is meaningless. Then they sell few wagons and wonder why. 10-15 year old 328 wagons are pretty common sight still, because they were affordable.
> bad-ass looking wagons brought to the US in reasonably priced trims??
[CLA Shooting Brake says good morning.](https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/n73QG/s1/mercedes-amg-cla-45-shooting-brake-2019.webp)
Haha, yea, aesthetically it's at the bottom of the list I'd stated (G90, M5, RS, etc) but it's still lightyears better looking than most cars we have access to, particularly at half the cost (~€61k/$67k for the 350)
Yep. I want an S4 Avant, not an RS6. An M340i Touring, not that M5 monstrosity. A Golf R wagon with a manual would be ideal. Hell Audi already makes the S5 Sportback which is soooo close but I need the cargo height for music gear (and I prefer the wagon shape). "These don't sell!" Nobody has offered one since the damn B6 S4!!!!!
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Hyundai, Kia, and Genesis have been pumping out concept cars left and right for a decade. I would bet they've pushed through more concept cars than any three other auto makers combined. Not a single one has made it to market.
Don't hold your breath.
I'd contend Hyundai Kia do *way* better than average when it comes to bringing their concepts to production. Stinger GT, Santa Cruz, Ioniq 5 and 6 come to mind and they didn't stray terribly far from their concepts.
Genesis is the outlier. They have all kinds of concepts they haven't acted on
I assume they'll really only make it if they think it has any sort of business case though.
Stinger might be the exception cause making anything for enthusiasts is a bit of a lost cause cause they'll never speak with their wallets en masse.
Im lowkey hoping they don't act on any anytime soon so Genesis doesn't become too hyped and they don't shed their reputation as being fancy Hyundais
Used Genesis cars are an insane value because of how bad the deprecation is as a result of Genesis' reputation. I need Genesis to maintain its current reputation until I buy one
Absolutely true. I looked at Genesis G70 Shooting Brakes before buying my current Volvo. There were swaths of 2 year old lease returns with barely 20.000 km (12.500 mi) on them, fully optioned, for maybe 27.000 € (31.500 USD) which is an insane bargain (especially for Germany/Europe).
However, I ultimately decided against it because the Hyundai/Kia dealers I called all told me they don’t service Genesis vehicles and don’t have access to their parts catalogue, same goes for the independent repair shop of my choice. So even though I don’t care about residual value because I buy cars to drive them as long as possible and until they die, I won’t buy a car I cannot get serviced.
To be honest, it's justified. Their handling of the Theta engines was abysmal not to mention some of head-scratching decisions of putting faulty DCTs in commodity cars. The jury is still out on them.
I've owned my car for a year now, at 10K, it's been a blast to drive. Their engineering is really, really good. N is a fantastic car. Based on the limited date on this power train, they seem to be reliable, too. So far so good. It's weird to hate a corporation just as it's weird to love or defend one. I enjoy their products, but the moment they mess it up, I'll move on to another.
> Based on the limited date on this power train, they seem to be reliable, too. So far so good.
Thats because the N theta engines are made in korea. The ones blowing up are from a manufacturing fault from the US site.
The Elantra/Veloster N Flat Power 2.0, and the DCT/MT equipped to it have proved pretty reliable. Seems like the Hyundai Motor Group can make a good engine when they want to
Yay, another $100K super wagon that only a handful of people can buy and enjoy.
Forgive me for not being excited about a new wagon when it’s literally unobtanium for so many of us who want a wagon.
No, it's not. Look up used prices. I've been watching them for a few years. Compare the price of uses A6 Allroads to used A6 sedans. The wagons hold their value because they're rare.
Maybe you and I have different ideas about "astronomical" depreciation then. A used Audi with 72k miles still being worth $39k when it was $67-71k new isn't out of line with other non-wagon comps. A used one may as well be a myth though - zero within 250 miles of me. Expand that to 500 miles and there are 4.
They did though. Or at least, white collar professionals. My grandfather was an engineer. Had a stay at home wife, four kids, two houses (one on Long Island), and yes, a full size wagon (unfortunately I don’t know what type) on that income. The average personal economic situation has deteriorated significantly since then.
The average person could never afford these cars though. An S-Class started at $94k in the 90s and went all the way up to $140k… in the 90s. What average person could afford that now, let alone back then.
If you actually paid attention, the overwhelming majority of people can't afford **ANY** $60k car. Stop acting like everyone being poor is some kinda of "you're all talk" gotcha moment.
Average transaction price is over $50k now. Not sure what the standard deviation is (or even if it’s a normal distribution), but $60k isn’t too far off that.
At $60K I absolutely would, $60-65 is right where I’m looking to spend for my next car and I’d love a wagon over an SUV but I’m manly focused on SUVs as sadly there aren’t enough wagons.
Hey look it’s the comment!
You’re so brave for saying you’re not excited for (expensive car) because it’s expensive.
Thank you so much for this valuable and unique opinion nobody has heard before.
We love you - and can’t wait to hear what kind of truly unique take you have next.
"I cant believe that this flagship luxury performance car isn't attainable to the average income what has the industry come to - I miss when any Dental Assistant could afford an S65 AMG"
Well yeah it's a wagon built upon an S-class competitor, not to mention that this is intended to be built upon the planned G90 Magma. It's a specialty product to begin with.
A 2-litre G70 Shooting Brake already costs the equivalent of +50k in American bucks. You just have to move to Australia or something
> Yay, **another $100K super wagon** that only a handful of people can buy and enjoy.
It’s actually quite a bit higher. With prices expected to start at about €120K in Germany, even a base U.S. model will likely be north of $140K. And at that point you’re cross-shopping a BMW M5 Touring, and while Genesis is improving fast, it’s not quite BMW’s league yet.
There's hope it'll be around $100k, not that I can afford it. European g90 starts at €115k. US g90 starts at $92k. If European wagon starts at €120k, US might be close to the $92k mark too. Can't imagine it being almost 50%ore expensive than the coupe.
>There's hope it'll be around $100k,
A base G90 is 92k. Ain't no way this thing is under 125 if they ever bring it to market.
An M5 allegedly starts at 120k, but realistically you won't find one for much under 140 or so.
Damn. I guess I didn't notice because I've never seen one in person. Lol. Where I live I see much more expensive cars daily but don't think I've seen anything more than a GV70.
If I'm not mistaken, cars in Germany typically include VAT which means the USD equivalent doesn't look as far off. Now, where something like this falls w/ tariffs is another question.
Of course, if I'm shopping in the six figure car range, I'm probably not going to drop the coin for a Genesis even though the few I've driven have been pretty decent.
A person with a garage of used BMWs could understand how the unattainable becomes attainable via depreciation.
The sticker price with options of Car and Driver's long term test 2008 M3 is nearly exactly $100k modern dollars.
Lol, I think someone meant to type ".. 525i Touring Rival" but wrote "M5" by accident. Genesis didn't have anything close to a rival for the baby Ms, but suddenly they're going to have one for the real big boy M?
I didn’t read an AI summary and had similar thoughts, lol. “Buy a G90 so you don’t need to buy a G90, whaaa…?” Stupid BMW and their chassis codes, lol.
lol if you think a Hyundai V8 is even in the same universe as the S68 you’re smoking good shit. It may be BMWs most problematic motor, but god damn it has a lot less issues than the tin foil motor that Kia makes
This is like saying a Mitsubishi engine is reliable because Mitsubishi Heavy Industries exists. Chaebol's are huge and experience doesn't always flow from one area to another
Hyundai made a v8 for a good number of years and was generally considered fairly reliable: [the tau v8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Tau_engine). It also wasn't too outlandish either. 4.6-5 liters displacement, DOHC, all aluminium with a 90 degree bank angle.
>At the moment there is, let’s say, a multiplication of SUVs,’ he said. ‘This fast growth will create a saturation. This is when other typologies of cars are going to become attractive again. This is why I strongly believe in not having a typology monoculture.’
That's what most Redditors in this sub thinking.
Jeebus, how big is this thing? It looks wider than a corvette and longer than an escalade. I'm all for a sporty wagon but it looks absolutely massive in every direction.
Probably first time there's a Full-size flagship luxury wagon since maybe Chrysler 300 Touring (although it was a rebadged Dodge Magnum so not sure if that counts).
It looks nice excluding the wing under the rear glass like what why interrupt the flow of the back like that which body-type are you trying to exemplify here
I feel like this car would make more sense in a "milder" trim, a la Audi S6 – I'm not entirely sure who the target audience for this is. Too stiff for families, too big to be manoeuvrable... and yet it has a steering wheel top mark? Bit silly, that.
At the end of the day, it's a PR machine, rather than something that will move units – and that is by intent.
It has a 3.5 v6 that's only made 409hp in its top trim, and a platform closer to the S class and 7 series. As gorgeous as it is, claiming this is going to compete with m5s and rs6s seems delusional.
> M5 Touring
Saw one on the road, and it looks so much uglier than the RS6 imo. Weird proportions and too rectangular. Not sure someone can top the RS6.
Performance wagons (along with minivans) are the most overhyped class of cars. These wagons ride awfully compared to their normal versions, get horrific fuel economy, and are never really that fun to drive since they weigh so much more than actual performance cars that are priced similarly. I don't get the appeal.
Genesis shouldn't make this. It won't sell, nor will it move the needle in its segment. If they want something to stick out, they should just make the coupe and convertible versions of the G90. Those won't sell either (not that they have to), but they'll at least attract new customers to the brand
To me it’s the evolution in size of the hot hatchback
Hatchbacks share their wheelbase with compact sedans, and wagons share their wheelbase with the full size sedans. Both with the intention of more cargo space
There’s an appeal to having a practical vehicle that’s also fun to drive. I just think hot wagons don’t catch on as much as hot hatches because they’re really expensive
Can't make that comparison in the US, the B9 RS4 was not offered. I can say that the A/S/RS5 sportback outsold coupe and convertible variants so much so that they discontinued the latter altogether for the new B10.
>RS6 definitely sells more than if they made an **RS6 coupe or convertible** though.
Audi used to make an RS4 convertible back then, with that high-revving V8, you know…
>RS6 definitely sells more than if they made an **RS6 coupe or convertible** though.
They actually used to make an RS4 convertible back then, with that high-revving V8, you know…
Except coupe and convertible versions don't sell - that's why, for example, Merc ditched the C and E class convertibles and consolidated the coupe versions to a CLE.
You used to be able to get coupe and convertible versions of normal sedans (Accord/Camry), but no one makes those any more because, guess what, they don't sell.
Stuff like the RS6, M5 and the E53 actually does sell, taking into account the market for such vehicles - that's why manufacturers go to the trouble of making them - and obviously Genesis wants a piece of that pie.
Would scaled back versions of these vehicles make more sense? Of course. But that goes for virtually any performance iteration of a normal car. Virtually everyone is going to be better off with a M340i than an M3 for the same reasons you listed. But no one is complaining the M3 exists.
I also don't understand the comparison to similarly priced sports cars. Obviously you can go out and get a Vette or a 911 for the same money which will outperform these wagons. But you can put car seats or flat screen TV in either.
For Genesis's sake, the coupe/convertible G90 don't need to sell well. They just need to be stunning enough to build excitement around the brand, enhance brand recognition, and attract buyers to things like the GV70 and G70. Basically, they need to have the same effect as the R8 had for Audi, because let's be honest. Audi wasn't considered by the general public to be on the same level as Mercedes and BMW until the R8. A wagon can never fill this role since for the general public, wagons are uninteresting.
Mercedes can discontinue poor-selling models because it's already built up a successful brand image. For most people, the badge alone makes them more excited than any coupe the company can make. However, they won't get rid of all of them (such as the GT and SL) so they can keep some performance credentials.
Lastly, performance wagons suck for daily living. The ride is atrocious and the fuel economy is lamentable. A few years back, my friend dad's (who has always owned E-Classes) decided to get an E63 wagon instead of his usual (highest non-AMG engine option). The ride was so awful that he ended up barely driving to his work and got rid of it after a year for another E450. He isn't the only guy either; many other people I know end up dumping these wagons to either get a crossover, or a few get an actual sports car.
For Genesis's sake, the coupe/convertible G90 don't need to sell well. They just need to be stunning enough to build excitement around the brand, enhance brand recognition, and attract buyers to things like the GV70 and G70. Basically, they need to have the same effect as the R8 had for Audi, because let's be honest. Audi wasn't considered by the general public to be on the same level as Mercedes and BMW until the R8. A wagon can never fill this role since for the general public, wagons are uninteresting.
Mercedes can discontinue poor-selling models because it's already built up a successful brand image. For most people, the badge alone makes them more excited than any coupe the company can make. However, they won't get rid of all of them (such as the GT and SL) so they can keep some performance credentials.
Lastly, performance wagons suck for daily living. The ride is atrocious and the fuel economy is lamentable. A few years back, my friend dad's (who has always owned E-Classes) decided to get an E63 wagon instead of his usual (highest non-AMG engine option). The ride was so awful that he ended up barely driving to his work and got rid of it after a year for another E450. He isn't the only guy either; many other people I know end up dumping these wagons to either get a crossover, or a few get an actual sports car.
You have a point! A few years ago at an Audi event in Kitzbühel I had a brief chat with one of the latest RS6 “fathers” and asked him almost the same question. He told me that Audi designed the RS6 to be an iconic performance wagon for people in their late forties or early fifties who take plenty of ski trips and regularly enjoy the German speed limit autobahns. That was their ideal customer profile. I tried to fish for how it really worked out for them and asked about the sales split between the United States and Germany in actual figures. He would not tell, and nobody else from Audi would either. Which is a shame because those numbers could be very interesting to see. I bet the data would support your theory.
The appeal for me is simple: I like wagons. I like fast wagons more.
It's the same with performance cars. Performance versions of normal cars ride worse and also get terrible fuel economy. The only difference is that they're not as heavy. But performance wagons are easier to daily. Throw some car seats in there, luggage in the back, cooler with drinks and snack, and boom! Road trip ready and everyone is comfy.
I don't want crossovers and bloated SUVs. I love wagons for their general practicality. Sport wagons are just fun and cool.
I just wish I was in the demographic that could afford the fucking things brand new.
You actually have a point. A few years ago at an Audi event in Kitzbühel I had a brief chat with one of the latest RS6 “fathers” and asked him almost the same question. He told me that Audi designed the RS6 to be an iconic performance wagon for people in their late forties or early fifties who take plenty of ski trips and regularly enjoy the German speed limit autobahns. That was their ideal customer profile. I tried to fish for how it really worked out for them and asked about the sales split between the United States and Germany in actual figures. He would not tell, and nobody else from Audi would either. Which is a shame because those numbers could be very interesting to see. I bet the data would support your theory.
depends on the price but very good chance I'll end up buying one. I currently own a gv70 and love the genesis interiors. Not only do I get a touch screen but also real buttons!
Literally. Motor Trend reported that the Wingback and X Gran Coupe may be treated as bridge products between the Magma brand and the One-of-One programme
https://www.motortrend.com/news/genesis-might-build-genesis-wingback-concept-first-look-review
It's gorgeous, my hope would be for a cheaper 60 wagon or something with this as a halo. I really want a wagon, but the point (for me) is that it replaces a lot of the practicality of the SUV or Minivan
Idk the G70 is already criticised for being cramped as it is. And the shooting brake gets a bit of crap for choosing style over space.
It's just a matter of whether Genesis is willing to to commit to that model for a next generation or at least a hefty refresh.
Genesis is killing it. There’s a reason I see more and more on the road. I mean I bought one this past year and there’s like 3 more within a few blocks of my place.
It took manufacturers and consumers a while for wagons to catch back on, but for awhile they had a bad rep here in the US, being associated with family cars and such.
I’d cry - hopefully not an M5 competitor though - making a full-size luxury wagon ride like shit to make it faster on a race track defeats the purpose:
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NISMO1968@reddit (OP)
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