Leaving the Netherlands after 11 years. Goodbye!
Posted by scrotomon@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 1277 comments
After almost a decade in the Netherlands, my wife and I are moving back to Italy. We didn’t come here blindly; we knew the downsides, but we wanted growth, change, and a bigger world. And to be fair, the Netherlands gave us just that. We made friends from places we would have never crossed paths with at home - Portugal, Chile, South Africa, the US, Australia and many more. We discovered a passion we didn’t even have before: long-distance cycling. We built careers we never expected. Our world became wider, and we’ll always be grateful for it.
But over time, the same country that helped us grow stopped feeling like the place where the next chapter of our life should happen. We realized we recharge in wild nature: mountains, steep trails, forests, winding roads. The Netherlands has its own beauty, but it’s flat, curated, predictable, and crowded. We spent most of the year missing the kind of nature that feels alive. Even after holidays in the mountains, we’d feel our energy drop again within days of returning. The long winters didn’t help; the darkness grew heavier every year and slowly chipped away at our mood.
There’s also something harder to explain: we simply don’t feel well here. We used to do tons of sports and outdoor activities, but in the Netherlands we’ve slowly felt more and more fatigued. Low energy, often feeling “off” or unwell without ever being sick. It’s like a constant low battery feeling, even though we’re healthy, eat well, and try to stay active. The climate, light, and environment just seem to drain us physically as well as mentally. Not dramatically, just steadily.
Daily life turned into a long series of small compromises: expensive housing that never felt like home, food that rarely inspired us, services that cost a lot without much attention or care, and a culture that leans more toward efficiency and restraint than warmth or spontaneity. On top of that, the cost of living is incredibly high. A car, insurance, groceries, a simple dinner out, hiring a plumber or mechanic... everything is expensive and heavily taxed. Even with good salaries, it felt like our money went into surviving, not living. Paying high prices isn’t the issue itself; it’s paying so much for so little joy in return.
Healthcare ended up being the deal-breaker. Getting help felt slow and discouraging. My wife’s fractures were missed due to poor exams, the cast was done badly, and now she has lasting problems. Prevention isn’t common, screenings are rare, and referrals are often denied. We felt like the system’s instinct was to do as little as possible unless things were already severe. Over time, that made us feel unprotected, even though we were paying for care every month.
And despite making an effort to meet people, join groups, and socialize, it never turned into a life with real closeness. We did make friends, but those relationships rarely became part of day-to-day life. Meanwhile, our families in Italy have been living life together... meals, birthdays, hikes, simple shared moments we’ve only watched from afar. It started to feel like we were guests in our own family’s story, always watching it happen without being in it. And the pace of life here, while comfortable for many, often felt dull and too predictable for us.
So we’ve decided to go back. Not because we think Italy is perfect, far from it. Bureaucracy, politics, inefficiencies… they’re real. But Italy offers what we need now: family, warmth, proximity, and a landscape we connect with emotionally and physically. Remote work makes it possible, tax incentives help, and living one hour from the mountains instead of once a year matters more than we realized.
We’re not leaving because the Netherlands is failing. It’s a good country. It’s just no longer the right country for who we’ve become. We’re leaving because we’ve grown into people who need a different kind of life, and finally feel ready to choose it.
Has your host country ever stopped fitting who you are, even if nothing was "wrong" with it?
TheCuriousGecko@reddit
I literally feel the same. Although, I am still living in the NL. I currently study at HBO and am waiting to finish my studies and then work a few years to pay back my student debt. After that, I am seriously considering moving away, most likely somewhere with better weather and more sunshine (I HATE the winters here in NL, I actually get sick multiple times just because of the cold every year, in summer I never do).
I also dislike the food and the isolating society. What I will most likely miss is the infrastructure and that everything was well organised, yet sometimes I couldn't handle how artificial it all felt, everything pixel perfect, no space for authenticity or spontaneity.
What I also found very freeing was the positive financial side. I made here much more money than in my home country and as a student and still continue to profit and have a good student life thanks to my side job/student financing. In my home country or in other countries I think I would have gone bankrupt as a student (my parents cannot support me financially), here I actually thrive, completely on my own. But that will probably change once I fully enter the workforce and adult life.
I think NL really gave me a boost and huge learning possibilities as a teenager/young adult when I first came here and felt the "luxury" of this place, which my home country simply didn't offer. But once you grow up and the rose-colored glasses fall off, you actually realise what matters to you and no material "luxury" compensates for that.
LittleMisssMorbid@reddit
Best of luck! How would you say healthcare in Italy compares to Dutch healthcare?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Depends on the region; prevention is big, they're often attentive. Waiting lists can be huge, but you can always pay a specialist yourself to get what you need right away.
Suspicious-Book-1014@reddit
Same in the Netherlands. Waiting lists for MRI are a couple of weeks or sometimes months, but you can always pay yourself and got to private clinics like Prescan
TopNotchDude@reddit
wait what do you mean we can pay privately?? I asked all my gps and everyone says you can't pay for anything. Not that I have the money for it but I would save just to get a decent doctor. Or is it just the MRIs?
Sfa90@reddit
Yes there are plenty of private clinics in NL, some of them have contracts with some healthcare companies but you can pay out of pocket as well
Suspicious-Book-1014@reddit
It's possible to pay for a 'bodyscan', the prices differ depending on the things you want to get tested. MRI's, bloodwork+urine, EKG/physical tests, dermatoloog al screening. It costs a lot (2000+ euros for all of the above), but there are many private companies in the Netherlands offering these things
godspell1@reddit
One thing that’s worse in Belgium is MRIs. The healthcare system on the whole is much better but you can wait weeks or months for MRIs, without the possibility of booking it privately! (I mean, I guess you can go to NL or DE but that’s about it.)
Alejandra-689@reddit
Tremendous here in Argentina they make them immediately
Striking-Friend2194@reddit
I hear people here in NL always praising ( private ) doctors in Belgium. Some people go from NL to BE for exams ( private ) due to lack of availability or inefficiency in NL.
godspell1@reddit
I can absolutely see that. But MRIs are not available privately.
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
It depends on the hospital and region. And let’s thank our dear healthcare minister, not.
RMCOD@reddit
So the system is better just for the people with money?
Desperate-Tart-7572@reddit
This is usually so. Expats complaining that they don't have the privilege in the Netherlands that they experienced in their own country where poor people are treated like dirt. 😅
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Exactly. Instead in NL it’s bad for everyone.
cdigir13@reddit
I’m an American just wondering what the rough cost is for an MRI if you were to pay for it privately.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
From 150 euros
No_Pen_376@reddit
in the US it would thousands and thousands for an uninsured MRI scan.
Alejandra-689@reddit
In Argentina, social work covers it for you.
dallyan@reddit
It sounds like OP makes good money so they’ll be fine.
Actual-Appearance-17@reddit
https://netherguides.com/leaving-the-netherlands
Suspicious-Switch133@reddit
I love NL but I really don’t understand why the health care is so reactive instead of preventive.
mpbo1993@reddit
It’s a mindset in many European countries. As they say “if you look for issues, issues will be found”, they just treat once it gets bad. Switzerland, Germany, Scandinavia is also very similar. I’m from Brazil, currently living in Switzerland, but never stopped paying for my health insurance in Brazil, same as OP, they missed some fractures in Switzerland that were easily found and treated in Brazil, where preventive care is miles ahead and service is really good.
ewmajeuk@reddit
For sure, you need some mindset to compare the quality of those countries healthcare in favor of Brazil. 😂
Switzerland literally has one (if not) the best healthcare of the whole world, and every western eu countries beats 90-95% of the world. Only maybe Japan, China on the same level.
Ok-Limit7212@reddit
I'm so fkng tired of hearing "best in the world"at this point
TheXXStory@reddit
Taiwan actually has #1 healthcare in the world :) - according to multiple rankings at least. That's factoring in quality, ease of access/speed, & cost.
simple_explorer1@reddit
Germany and Switzerland have preventative care
magnets321@reddit
I bet they do, but in Brazil you go to the doctor and they issue a thousand exams no matter what
Equal-Suggestion3182@reddit
Private health care in Brazil sucks. They almost killed my mom. She got saved by SUS.
simple_explorer1@reddit
Yes, and I would say when it comes to health, more exams is better than less exams because, why take an unknown risk?
Heavy-Primary6608@reddit
I agree with the state of healthcare in netherlands inthis one. But i do have to chime in. There is such thing as false positive results, where the test says there is something even tough there isn't. Which in the past has led (quite often) to unneccesary procedures and complications. So thats why its not always more is better. However dutch dr"s could invest more in preventive medicine definetely
Embarrassed_Ad_3483@reddit
There are studies done by alot of countries and also from the EU about when to screen and not to screen. With alot of examinations and screenings the patient outcome will be worse if you test everyone.
simple_explorer1@reddit
I think you are factually wrong. Netherlands is uniquely bad because it lacks the preventative care that many other EU countries have. In Germany I was asked to do many tests which I wasn't even interested in by a GP simply because they wanted to be sure and have safeguards. Easy blood tests, MRI's etc. even without forcing the doctors. Belgium, Spain, Italy are similar. So, your "studies" are not factual and does not live up to my lived experiences.
Logical_Statement_86@reddit
Preventative care (prevention of disease) is completely different from early diagnosis (which involves early testing). Prevention of disease revolves around promoting healthy lifestyle, diet and habits, to prevent disease from happening. To prevent lung cancer, you discourage smoking, not give everyone a yearly CT of the thorax. The fact you get these two elementary concepts mixed up says enough about your ‘lived experience’ and your qualifications to form an (educated) opinion of the matter.
simple_explorer1@reddit
Your comment is so visibly disingenuous that it is now a waste of time.
Just a tip, stop lecturing people when you are so laughably factually wrong and have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Hahaha
CatMinous@reddit
Logical Statement worded his comment quite haughtily, but is right nonetheless. Screening is not preventative healthcare and is also not the great achievement people think it is. I guess one day more people will know this. Right now few do.
simple_explorer1@reddit
Looks like this is your second account texting the same comment. Common sense isn't common afterall
CatMinous@reddit
Reaching, baby
Logical_Statement_86@reddit
You can literally look up the definition of the terms and see that I’m factually right, and you’re factually wrong. I guess you’re just trolling, or extremely uneducated on the topic. Throwing around “factually incorrect” without providing the facts that prove someone incorrect, and sprinkling in some difficult words, may help you convince yourself, but the rest of the world won’t take you seriously.
I won’t dox myself but given my professional background the probability of you knowing more than me about early testing, cost-effectiveness and accuracy of tests is smaller than 0.1%.
simple_explorer1@reddit
hahaha, stop you are very funny.
Only an educated fool needs to "look up" a definition for common sense. And, based on your obtuse comments, I doubt you are even educated to begin with.
CatMinous@reddit
Oh dear
CatMinous@reddit
You’re completely right. People are downvoting because they don’t know the facts behind screening and usually have a mistaken understanding of statistics.
ProfessionalHot2421@reddit
Switzerland and Germany are not like that. Sre you sure you're living in CH?
Salphabeta@reddit
Yeah, but I don't understand how Italy is better. My ex gf left Italy solely because of the healthcare. Not a native Italian and Italy doesn't do well in any healthcare stats.
Practical_Gas9193@reddit
Because it’s cheaper to fix things when they go wrong enough to demand treatment rather than to provide prevention to everyone and give many small treatments for things that can probably be tolerated and/or will eventually resolve on their own.
easterss@reddit
That is absolutely false. Preventive care is always cheaper in the long run.
Practical_Gas9193@reddit
I'm assuming you're not a health economist? I am.
Vaccinations, smoking prevention programs, regular blood pressure monitoring and control, STI prevention, prenatal care, and early cancer detection for high risk groups - these all save money, yes.
Just about everything else? No.
bamibalzak@reddit
Yes! Overdiagnosis does not only cost a lot of money, it also puts a burden on the healthcare system for people that really need the help.
Logical_Statement_86@reddit
Do you really think the Dutch (of all people) would knowingly choose the option that is costing more AND yielding less utility? Hard to imagine there might be more to a system than seems at first glance. Do you think a random person with a university degree knows more about your profession than you do yourself?
easterss@reddit
It’s almost as if I have a career in global health and worked with the worlds leading experts on the topic. There’s a lot of research on this if you just google it…. There are very few exceptions to this rule.
Logical_Statement_86@reddit
Great to encounter a fellow public health professional here! I personally prefer pubmed over google to find my sources, using google (prompt: “best healthcare systems in the world”) I find the Netherlands in the top 10 of every single compiled list. Could you cite me some of the studies of those experts you worked with? I’m very eager to learn which proven cost-effective preventative healthcare implementations we’re currently missing out on in the Netherlands (either from a societal or healthcare perspective).
Fokare@reddit
Most definitely not always. Overdiagnosis is a problem with screening, treating insignificant cancers still is expensive.
Annachroniced@reddit
There is plenty of preventive care. But more screenings didn't result in lower healthcare costs or actual more prevention. A yearly check-up just gives the illusion of better healthcare.
bamibalzak@reddit
Its weird you are getting downvoted. This is literally it. And it’s not even hard to find, one PubMed search and you can see for yourself.
Roodditor@reddit
Cost reasons.
FarkCookies@reddit
That makes little sense, as it is cheaper to prevent than to treat when things go badly (if it is the case). And since the resources are pooled together, there is a nationwide incentive to cut spending.
010backagain@reddit
It's more a capacity issue, the system is stretched out to the max. People in healthcare all work crazy hours, and still a lot slips through the cracks. They simply do not have the capacity to give everyone full attention and care, they have to make harsh choices all the time.
Getsmokedsononcod@reddit
Sounds like an issue caused by under stimulating students to become doctors and health care workers..
QuinnAriel@reddit
That's why we don't want public healthcare in the US. As a nurse I know how much worse the care at Veterans Administration is as it's federally funded. So much worse.
wyatt265@reddit
Medicare entered the chat.
ProishNoob@reddit
To be fair, the system being stretched to the max is also due to choices that were made... It likely would not have been an issue if the right ones were made.
And this whole reactive care thing only makes it worse. It comes back to bite you 10x harder. It's like a bad investment. You get short-term benefits but you'll have to pay for it later.
terenceill@reddit
Crazy hours in the Netherlands being like?
crazyabootmycollies@reddit
Sounds like they need to hire more help and build more facilities, but that would cost more money.
the_persecutor@reddit
Labour is incredibly expensive here. For a system that covers nearly 100% of the population, doing that will skyrocket the already high healthcare premiums.
crazyabootmycollies@reddit
That’s the point. It’s not “more a capacity issue” like 010backagain wanted to downplay it as. That lack of capacity is caused by high costs.
RenatoPensato@reddit
The Netherlands has the most expensive health care in EU, in terms of expenses pro-capita.
cliniclown@reddit
Healthcare expenditure statistics - overview - Statistics Explained - Eurostat
In absolute terms its not the highest, in relative terms neither.
NL is slightly below EU average. The average is pulled up a lot by germany, france which are way bigger countries and spend more absolute per person, as gdp, and price adjusted.
The only valid feedback would be that you find the level and quality not comparible. Which is a different line of arguing. Unfortunately for that line of arguing in quantitative terms dutch healthcare, as far as data gathering goes, is really good.
I think the biggest mindset thing is just that healthcare, eventhough it's a very individualized cost/benefit, is approached really more collectively/population wise than in many other countries. If prefentative care at a general level for certain conditions doesn't have a good cost benefit for population , despite it may be super positive for certain individuals, it's still probably not done. This is how the discrepancy between individual subjective experience vs the collective objective data reality has such a gap.
fromindia1@reddit
You should have HMOs.
boterkoeken@reddit
It’s confusing though. Why they can’t hire more people? It seems obvious that the demand is high so you would expect the sector to grow.
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
this could be a funny discussion, because at the end it’s always about money. Of course it’s simply not possible to cover every healthcare need, but…
BeingEnglishIsACult@reddit
You can bypass it, it’s about your relationship with your GP. If you usually ask three times they will not refuse you. Because a doctor cannot refuse needed care without legitimate medical grounds (zorgplicht). And if you can show you asked repeatedly and they still refused it is a breach of the Medical Treatment Contracts Act (WGBO).
And for every case there is an official method for a second opinion, and the entire dossier can, and often is, then reviewed by a healthcare complaints committee.
bettazetter@reddit
Dutch people generally justify this by saying: "look at the statistics! on aggregate, reactive health care saves more people per euro spent than preventive health care!". Which is true, but it also means that when you do have an issue that is not diagnosed yet, Dutch doctors are useless.
Low-Board181@reddit
Ye that's simply untrue, you can't just make stuff up and roll with it. Preventitive measures tend to be more cost efficient, which Dutch healthcare is very much focused on. Think for example of all the "bevolkingsonderzoeken" (screenings) that are performed on large groups of the population with elevated risks. According to the WHO, the Netherlands has historically maintained one of the highest vacciation-coverage levels in the world.
Suspicious-Switch133@reddit
I’ve never heard anybody say that, but that could just be the difference in people that I talk to and that you talk to.
Low-Board181@reddit
Afaik, it's exactly the otherway around. The Netherland's gp system is set up to be preventitive but they're very concious of growing antimicrobial resistance which can be confusing and frustrating to uninformed foreigners when they aren't prescribed what they want.
MrGraveyards@reddit
What i would like to ask is where you are from? Or actually more importantly: where is it better? Japan? Switzerland? The Galapagos Islands?
Dutch health care is indeed a bit reactive, but it is still one of the best systems in the world, especially when you really need them. I think the problem with expats writing such long stories of their experience of NL is that they are probably not really going to like it anywhere. Or they are really filthy rich, in that case a place where you pay yourself for better healthcare might suit your needs better.
For normal citizens I would really like to know. Where is it better?
No-Telephone-5215@reddit
i also hear a lot of dutch people say “suffering is a part of life”, especially for things like bad colds/flu that we would normally have pretty powerful medicine for in the us. not that this applies to stuff like cancer, but for more common ailments, it’s not the philosophy i’m used to
ElderberryOne140@reddit
Because the healthcare is completely public. There’s no private healthcare which puts a strain on the system
Vonrith@reddit
Because most of the time doing nothing is better than overmedicalizing a situation. Or is just as good.
For example, I’m shocked how easily antibiotics are given outside Northern Europe or how quickly a C-section is proposed for delivery. I feel it’s because doctors here don’t tend to have big ego’s and can confess when they don’t know exactly how to help and that they don’t feel pressured into showing off that they can do something.
It really is a cultural thing. Dutch people also don’t tend to go to the GP very quickly. For example, I have had several expat neighbors and friends that went to the GP for a cold… or just a stumach flu.
IJStarry@reddit
US healthcare is super preventative (annual checkups at a minimum, most Americans even more often, hospitals and urgent care eager to treat, etc) but this can actually make the population sicker long-term. They probably have some data showing that reactive is better for both budgets and people
Scifi_fans@reddit
Mate, it's just money... it's not because that's better for people
stevesmd@reddit
Because it's private and insurance companies have the upper hand on it.
Too much spending on health care means smaller dividends to shareholders. The Netherlands is a perfect example of how private healthcare with no competition defeats its own purpose: providing healthcare.
Bfor200@reddit
Most health insurance companies are non-profits and it's illegal for health insurance companies to pay out dividends to shareholders.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
There are so many ways to make profits disappear as a non-profit.
bluedelvian@reddit
Rethink that "private" contention.
resueuqinu@reddit
It's barely private. The majority of funding comes from general taxes, not premiums. Also the general level of care (basispakket) is dictated by the government. The private insurance companies really just sell non critical addons: a nicer room, reimbursement for your glasses, alternative medicine, gym classes, an additional IVF round, etc.
terenceill@reddit
Because in the Netherlands money is more important then people
m07815@reddit
It’s what privatising insurance does. Everything is “too expensive” and everything is worse because of cost reasons. This goes for anything in capitalism, public transport too for example. Privatization of public needs is hurting our country.
Background_Age_852@reddit
because it looks better in statistics.
smooth-vegetable-936@reddit
I think everyone will be leaving due to the tax on unrealized gains. This is suicidal to the ppl that are trying to build wealth.
No_Resource_9417@reddit
Next stop Canada? would be a nice choice imo (sorry i did not read the whole text)
SuccessfulTooth4482@reddit
I thought you or a family member had to be Dutch to move there. We were planning on following our daughter who is married to a Dutch man. My daughter needs to demonstrate the Dutch language. Have the requirements changed? Needless to say, we don't meet those requirements.
SuccessfulTooth4482@reddit
You cannot move to Netherlands unless you or your spouse are Dutch. My daughter recently moved there because her husband is Dutch. My husband and I don't have a blood Dutch connection, so we can't follow her.
Equivalent-Cat2482@reddit
I am actively deciding/working towards moving my family to the Netherlands. Thank you so much or your insight. Good luck on the next chapter of your life.
Superj9524@reddit
Same here. Three year that I am in the Netherlands, I come from Italy (Liguria, between Mountains and Sea), lived in UK for 7 years (Cornwall, Hampshire, Scotland). I worked at sea for 4 navigating all the med. I got a child with my Dutch gf, which has brought me here. And tbh, I feel lonely, tired, stressed, bored. The indoor life, the poor food quality, the cold people around, no real nature, always the same place, same shops repeating, same grey morning every day. It drain your energy. Everything feel soo robotic here, the control over everything, if you get 1 minutes late, fella like you are a terrorist. High tax, high price for everything. When I get out of here, I feel reborn again. And I mean, I lived in England which as weather is poor, but at least you have a life, amazing landscapes, the people is more warm and open to relations. Here is just a fake open mind. So now I got to a braking point, where I already start to look to take away my family from this country where you live to work. Because I wan my family to live, to be happy, to have stuff to do daily. And not just working and be at home. I do get you guys. This country has a good economy, but this is not worth your health and mental health.
SmoothReserve6457@reddit
Spaniard living in Amsterdam here. You just put words to what I have been trying to explain to my dutch partner. Thank you. And yes, we will most probably move back to Spain one day :)
Striking-Friend2194@reddit
Great weather, great food, great tax system 😎
Historical-Rent-cost@reddit
Great tax system? Great salaries?
Numerous-Treat960@reddit
If you have a spare basement, please take me too
TopNotchDude@reddit
oh hell yes take them to spain 💕
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Spain is a great option!
sashisuseso1@reddit
Sounds like how I feel in Germany. We're seriously contemplatimg moving even after buying a house here. The culture is just not right for me and I don't want my child growing up here. Food is bland. Everything is cold. The people are difficult to get to know. They're not cold or anything, just so reserved. Gotten so used to it that I feel like an empty shell of myself.
MaxGaav@reddit
In southern Germany?
sashisuseso1@reddit
Nope north germany.
Voiturunce@reddit
This is super relatable, NL can be great on paper but the gray winters and the constant hassle just wear you down. Going back to where life actually feels warmer makes total sense.
Suspicious-Wallaby12@reddit
The healthcare really is a deal breaker for many. One of my friend's husband had a fracture and they outright didn't detect it. When they did X-Ray in their home country, there it was. It has caused permanent mobility issue in their leg and they are basically stumped now.
Doctors in Netherlands treat us like they're doing a favour. Man, we're paying for this shit!
planetarylaw@reddit
My healthcare experience in Northern Europe overall has been dismal. Sure, it's cheap, but you definitely get what you pay for. I've had doctors exam me without gloves (bare ungloved hands during a pelvic exam). I had a miscarriage in which the Dr used a trasvag ultrasound without first briefing me. They didn't use the sanitary covers on the exam surfaces or instruments like I'm accustomed to in the US. The overall lack of hygiene I've witnessed is appalling.
For that miscarriage, my passport was held until I paid for services in full. It was no problem for me financially, but the fact that a medical institution withheld my passport felt very fucking threatening. Especially since I was already under duress from, ya know, miscarrying. But telling a pregnant woman who is actively bleeding through her trousers that she must hand over her passport in order to receive medical services, that's fucking grim. Yes, I have trauma :)
For all the shit problems we have with healthcare in the US, our system at least functions. I have to pay out the nose for healthcare, but at least I get what I pay for.
Emergency rooms in the US legally cannot turn anyone away. At least we have that.
NoTrifle1406@reddit
please tell me this is a lie. (bare ungloved hands during a pelvic exam) as in they inserted their fingers without gloves ?
GabyArcoiris@reddit
Can confirm even though I'm not the OP. My GP here in the NL touched my labia with bare fingers. Also without giving me a gown or anything. She just told me to drop my pants/underwear and examined me. In the US there was so much going into making me feel comfortable in those types of visits. They even asked me every time if I wanted or needed a chaperone. They would step outside as I changed into a clinic-provided gown. They'd tell me everything they were going to do before doing it. Here in the NL it feels kind of medieval.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Gloves cost money!
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Exactly, you will see people bending over backwards defending the non-use of gloves in food handling in the NL....but reading op's experience, says everything I need to know! It's about the money!!!
MastodontFarmer@reddit
> Sure, it's cheap, but you definitely get what you pay for.
Americans pay twice as much as we Dutch do, and die on average 7 years earlier, after on average 13 years in worse health. I see what you mean.
> For all the shit problems we have with healthcare in the US, our system at least functions.
I wish you a lot of success and non-bankruptcy with the US system. I'm pretty sure it won't happen, but I wish it onto you nevertheless.
Good luck with King Donald the First and the rest. Also, make sure to burn all bridges behind you. Make sure you never need to return to this unholy hellhole.
simple_explorer1@reddit
Buddy, US population is 330m vs Dutch which is 17m. So, on average the US will come out worse given its much bigger and diverse population and geography.
By all metrics, the Dutch preventative healthcare is pretty bad compared to even Belgium and germany, let alone US.
DepartmentOwn1625@reddit
Exactly, plus some things we choose ourselves. As an American, quite frankly I enjoy fast food etc more than I should, and know that it will affect my health and take that risk. Europeans are less inclined to do that, plus, not as much tasty 'junk' food in Europe. Everything tastes worse there, Dunkin' Donuts, Papa John's, Five Guys etc not as good. And many things are simply not available, like I went to Dunkin' Donuts in NL, but they don't carry the old fashioned donut, nor the cake/chocolate cake donuts....those are the best types of donuts (and most fattening) and I think they are the best selling in the US...
No_Pen_376@reddit
I feel the US has the best medical system in the world, with the highest tech BUT it's very very very difficult to access unless you have amazing insurance, live in the right place, and/or have lots of disposable income. Like, LOTS. My daughter was treated for a bad injury to her mouth after a fall, at Nekkars children's hospital in Paris, I thought the experience was great, given the circumstances, and the treatment was pretty good. The facility itself didn't look great inside, and they seemed to be lacking a lot of equipment everything was free, so I was greatly appreciative. But it seemed a step behind my local children's in birminmgam Al, tbh. I am undecided which is better - free access, decent care, or the best care that many cannot afford.
commonhillmyna@reddit
Behind Alabama is saying something…
To be clear, I am not surprised by that. I do disagree with the percentage of Americans who are able to access good care - it’s actually a lot of people. The ones who have bad insurance (or decide to forego insurance altogether) are just louder. But you don’t hear people on Medicare complaining.
No_Pen_376@reddit
Birmingham has the UAB, which is, and you can google this if you think I am either lying, or stretching the truth, a world-class medical research university and research hospital system. If you read any medical news in say, The NY Times, the researchers they most often interview come from either the University of Michigan, or UAB. Just search for "UAB" or "University of Alabama, Birmingham" in the NYtimes search engine if you think I am lying about that one as well.
commonhillmyna@reddit
I‘m aware. I have family in Alabama. Regardless of one good teaching hospital, Alabama is still a backwards lousy state.
No_Pen_376@reddit
I can't disagree with that, tbh.
No_Pen_376@reddit
I was very surprised myself to be making that observation.
SybS_1000@reddit
Medicare is not free. And most people add on extra supplemental policies. My husband has Medicare and has to pay $1000s in USD for his special medications.
commonhillmyna@reddit
European health care systems aren’t free either. In many countries, he wouldn’t have the option to get specialty medicines at all. In the US, out of pocket costs for medicines for Medicare beneficiaries is $2000/year. Not great, but also not that bad for state of the art medicines.
Hazel1928@reddit
People up north don’t know what Alabama is like in the 21st century.
commonhillmyna@reddit
https://encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/poverty-in-alabama/
21st century. Still poor. Still underfunded. Still racist.
MastodontFarmer@reddit
> I feel the US has the best medical system in the world
Hold on to that feeling. You will need delusional thoughts like that to survive.
No_Pen_376@reddit
We have the best research and treatment facilities in the world, much of the advances in modern medicine happen in the US research hospitals and universities. It is a fact. However, many many people cannot access facilities like the Mayo Clinic in Arizona/FL, or MD Anderson in Houston, etc., where the latest technology and equipment exist. They instead are going to a doc in the box next to Lowes, and there are several logarithmic factors of difference between those two types of medical facilities. As well as cost differences.
DefiantSock6417@reddit
Unfortunately access is not the only reason that the American system scores at the bottom of industrialized countries
No_Pen_376@reddit
access and cost is why it scores low, we are the innovavors of medicine. Stop with 'how you feel' and just look it up. Jesus Christ people are so dumb, I lose my patience.
waspinastoria@reddit
Agree with you 100%. I say this as someone in the US WHO LOATHES the system, but it's just better quality overall IF you can access it. I personally have great insurance thanks to my job, and even though I'm moving to Spain due to ancestry, no chance in hell I'd give up my American insurance just in case I really need something major done. I respect that in Europe everyone has access, but that also creates serious quality issues in public medical facilities, and now you get doctors in Madrid (I cant speak for all of Europe on this) who came from countries that do not have the same medical standards and are often ignorant of the latest medical info or procedures. This isn't their fault, it's just that it's a system that is suffering a shortage of doctors, among other issues. Same or worse issues with the NHS in Britain.
DefiantSock6417@reddit
Jesus Christ YOU’RE so dumb, there’s not a study out there that says if not for cost and access the US would have the best healthcare. Also, go fuck yourself
MastodontFarmer@reddit
Have you paid any attention to politics recently? You have a president who believe that injecting bleach into his veins and shining UV light up his arse will cure Covid. And he appointed a minister for health who thinks that drinking raw milk is good for you and that vaccines make people weak. Oh, and that taking a painkiller during pregnancy causes autism.
Recent politics have halted research into many areas, like mRNA and stem cells. With King Donald the First on the throne it's a matter of time before chemotherapy will be replaced by daily doses of fermented cow urine, because RFK jr. read a book about the subject.
Things have changed a bit, since 2016. Time to catch up.
AdSea6127@reddit
You seem to have TDS while not even living in the US. Calm down a bit maybe?
Yes this administration isn’t the best, I’ll give you that. But what you are writing is pure exaggeration. We still have great care overall, and luckily not much has come out of RFKs plans. And whatever did change for the worse, we will get it back with the next administration.
AdSea6127@reddit
Honestly I feel we have amazing care in US too. I live in the US for many years so had a lot of issues in this time and everything was addressed properly and caught in time. The doctors really know what they are doing. Didn’t feel that way when I went to a highly regarded private clinic in Portugal. Doctors felt 3rd world, reminded me of my childhood in Ukraine. The care was dismal and I actually had to pay a pretty hefty amount for the two CT scans they did, even though everyone told me healthcare in Europe is always so cheap (in US insurance always covers that completely).
So don’t shit on it, especially if you never got care in the US?
simple_explorer1@reddit
>But it seemed a step behind my local children's in birminmgam
Birmingham in the UK or the US?
sengutta1@reddit
What makes a system work are also affordability and accessibility. You wouldn't say housing is great in a neighbourhood inhabited by ultra rich people living in $25-50 million houses, would you? They're completely pointless to normal people.
Dennis_enzo@reddit
Eh, if you're rich enough to be able to afford the bills yourself, you can have whatever health care you want in Europe as well.
1K1AmericanNights@reddit
I also had a miscarriage while traveling. I had a miscarriage in London (I am American). Prior to that experience, I was an avid supporter of universal healthcare. It definitely muddied the waters for me in terms of analyzing which system is better. Obviously anecdotal experience is not equivalent to data, but I don’t think I was aware of any cons to universal healthcare prior to that personal experience. Now, I feel that quality healthcare simply IS expensive, and someone ends up paying for it, or not paying enough and thus receiving substandard care, and it’s a really complicated resource to dole out uniformly.
What country did you have your miscarriage in?
CatMinous@reddit
Well….English health care has gone down very much over the decades - from what I understand (people will correct me if I’m wrong) that’s because right wing parties have underfunded it.
But it is not necessarily a consequence of health care being universally accessible.
wyatt265@reddit
The right wing is trying to defund research and health care in the US as well. Why? They prefer to pay high executive salaries, and as a side benefit. Maybe you will die.
1K1AmericanNights@reddit
I agree with the sentiment that my experience may have been worse than what I would have experienced in a country that spent more per capita, towards healthcare. And I think I ultimately still support a public option vs the current US system (obviously we have the same / worse type of conservative assholes here).
I am only saying that prior to that experience, I literally did not understand there might be tradeoffs at all. I assumed public healthcare would be uniformly better.
For me, a high-income person in the US, my access to healthcare in the US is far better than what I found in England (and to clarify, that’s with having relatives there who were guiding me). The reverse may be true for someone without insurance in the US, or for whom their only options are extortionate $$$$
I am fine with the tradeoff that I would get less, and someone else would get more, if the US were to switch to universal healthcare, as I am a financially privileged person and do not think my life should be treated as worth more than a poorer person. That is not fair.
But I can understand feeling scared, especially for people who are in the middle and have more of a fear of “well I may gain some options and lose some options. I fear losing what I do have.”
There simply ARE tradeoffs. Health care is expensive.
Plus I’m young and relatively healthy. That means I feel that kind of risk much less in my bones (pun intended).
CatMinous@reddit
It kind of makes sense that there would be trade offs….I guess? Dutch healthcare used to be top notch, at one time even no 1 in the world, I believe. But it, too, has gone down.
All the same, for 120 or 150 euros I get almost everything I could need. And then there’s the option with every private insurer (because we all have private insurance - the state subsidises, but is not the insurer) to choose from a plethora of extra options. These can cost from, say, 25 euros to…100? Not sure, per month. For instance, you can insure yourself a private room in the hospital and for a whole host of other things.
And of course, if you have money you can go to private clinics. But most treatments in private clinics will be reimbursed if you have ordinary insurance. My friend just had his eyes operated on in a private clinic. No cost.
I’m really not sure that Dutch healthcare is so bad, except in the sense in which all our modern health care systems are bad. The systemic flaws are huge.
1K1AmericanNights@reddit
I mentioned in another comment, but the only private clinic that would have worked in the timespan I needed within a 1.5 hr radius was on vacation for a week. And the public options (I was told by my British medical professional relatives) would not have performed the ultrasound at night.
It turned out fine in the end for me, but may not have for someone else.
CatMinous@reddit
Yes that is a very bad situation. I hope Dutch healthcare doesn’t devolve to that point. But, right wing governments here, too, which rarely bodes well (the idea of universal health care is pretty much ingrained in the Dutch psyche, though, whether left or right wing.)
1K1AmericanNights@reddit
Yeah, it’s frustrating having to think about “well which healthcare model is better, if you assume at least X% of the country doesn’t care if you die.” We are having to evaluate from a bad starting spot
CatMinous@reddit
Yep
Magic_Pen_Asura@reddit
I'm sorry you had to experience a miscarriage. Unfortunately it happened in a country where the public health care system is terribly underfunded. Universal healthcare is meant to be high quality and for everyone. But the NHS is in its worst state since ever. Universal healthcare works well when the government makes sure that the money from the people is properly distributed.
-mephisto--@reddit
Yup this is what many people don't realize about universal healthcare. I'm from Finland, but have lived abroad for all of my adult life (10+ years), and whilst in Finland no one has to die (or go into debt) because they can't afford care, many most definitely have to suffer subpar care or at the very least long waiting times.
It's loads better though if you're a resident and part of a streamlined process that has an expected outcome - eg. pregnancy, where the system functions well since there's a clear process and your appointment times are set well in advance. Same for dental healthcare, or childhood healthcare.
Sadly it's not the same if you have a sudden health issue in your adult years, and often you have to fight for a diagnose and even after that, wait for treatment. Too many people, too little resources.
Private health insurance and company healthcare have become more popular in the past years too, and personally I think public healthcare will taper off to be something for lower income people and those who don't work (children, students, elderly), and everyone else will end up preferring private healthcare.
Clueless5001@reddit
I had a family member in a country with universal healthcare (citizen) had a heart attack. Hospital would not do angioplasty because the age cutoff was 75 and FM was 76! Family begged and it was done three days later but too much heart damage happened because of the delay. FM died within the month. Meanwhile 78 yr old FM in US, got angioplasty in the time it took me to take a taxi across town. Has been enjoying his grandchildren for the last 9 years after being treated in a top US hospital
DefiantSock6417@reddit
Yikes. Thanks for sharing. I had a Canadian uncle who’d lived in the US for decades, then went back to Canada for the last 20 years of his life. He gave the US his daughter’s address and kept paying for Medicare so if the shit hit the fan he could run back to the US to get major stuff done. Not a bad strategy if you can pull it off
NoTrifle1406@reddit
this is fucking awful, I am so so sorry
SnooGiraffes5692@reddit
Look, if you want to pay, you pay everywhere. It's not like they're stopping you.
1K1AmericanNights@reddit
I’m not sure what you’re claiming.
Pretty_Radio_7746@reddit
Private healthcare is also available in Europe. You don’t have to use the public system.
1K1AmericanNights@reddit
Yes. However, I was attempting to access an ultrasound that night, and the only private place that was able to do it was on vacation for a week and fully closed. I called so many places within at least 1-1.5 hr radius.
GabyArcoiris@reddit
I had really good insurance when I worked in California and had amazing healthcare. Super competent, compassionate practitioners. The healthcare system in the Netherlands (my current country), on the other hand, is so fucking awful, outdated, and expensive. It feels like 50 years behind the US. I basically wait to have treatment, check ups, labs, dental, and buy medicines when I go to my home country even though I have to pay out of pocket - at least I receive top-of-the line care and they treat me with dignity. The NL health system is dehumanizing and you feel like you're begging them for a favor. I've been on a year-long waitlist (no exaggeration) to see a specialist. It's unbelievable.
Odd-Preference9800@reddit
Check to see if Bulgaria has a specialist available for what you need. Currently living in Bulgaria but originally from the Netherlands.
If you want you can direct message me with the specialist you need and I'll try to find an available one for you here in Bulgaria.
Unlike the Netherlands they still have private clinics here in Bulgaria that are reasonably cheap out of pocket and give good care.
You're absolutely right, the healthcare system in the Netherlands is a joke. You're paying a boatload of money per month for subpar insurance and then you have to pay out of pocket anyway up to a certain level. Its better in Bulgaria if you stick to private clinics. Generally speaking zero wait lists, competent and humane care. Language might be a barrier but they'll do their very best to help you.
Here you can book a slot with your chosen specialist directly, there's no need for a referral from a GP in most cases like they have in the NL.
simple_explorer1@reddit
jesus, that's crazy
etk1108@reddit
I am sorry you’ve had to go through this.
Lately I’ve been having many TV ultrasounds but never without gloves, sanatory covers or a cover on the wand. That seems a bit strange. Sorry I don’t believe any doctor will examine down there without gloves…
Odd-Preference9800@reddit
Keeping your passport or any identifying documents is against the law in the European union. It breaches the basic rights of free movement and generally the legislation around passports.
Only officials in limited cases may hold possession of your passport. In your case your passport is not your property but that of the US Government so they have no right to hold or confiscate property of the issuing government.
I can imagine it felt very threatening, because it is. I would even go as far as to say that its extortion as it involves a conditional demand. What they're saying is this : Pay this or you're not getting your passport back, effectively trapping you in that country until the conditions of the demand have been satisfied. (Or call the embassy and explain the situation to get an emergency travel document and pop smoke that way)
If you find yourself ever in a similar situation call the police as it constitutes theft of government property that you're the custodian of, and robbery of freedom. You cannot legally and freely move through the country that you are visiting without a valid passport and associated stamps/VISA and if the police do not wish to play ball, call the embassy and they will sort it out.
Credulouskeptic@reddit
Wow. Sounds like a terrifying & painful time. It’s pretty distressing that that level of care is acceptable anywhere. The US has decent care for white folks with money, but i gather the quality is far from uniform here. People get put into collections but not held hostage! To hold you hostage at the end of that ordeal is incredible! I’m sorry it happened to you or to anyone.
Is withholding a passport common in Europe, after medical care?
Anonymo123@reddit
Yes it is. I work for a global IT company and we've had several employees have to do that to get medical care. We had one who had a workplace accident and fell and hit his head, blood coming out his ear level trauma. He was taken to the ER and refused service until someone went back to get his passport, he easily could have died.
1K1AmericanNights@reddit
Which country was the head trauma in?
Anonymo123@reddit
Germany, in Frankfurt specifically. He ended up having to get continued care back home after he was stable enough to fly.
Oddly enough we were in the same town in 1999 visiting my brother at the old AF base that is now gone when my dad had a heart attack. They had to take him to 3 different hospitals before he got care by ambulance. I never asked about the cost of it, but the care was definitely not good back then either.
DrJakeX@reddit
If you have a real emergency, you'll always receive care. If you have fractured a toe, unless it looks dislocated, it can wait until the next working day.
RijnBrugge@reddit
Emergency rooms in the Netherlands work like that too, though.
martinbaines@reddit
Heath care rules are different in every European country. In most no-one gets turned away from an emergency facility. In some they might ask for a health card when you are able to respond and if not charge you, in others they just treat the emergency for free (but charge someone not covered for follow up treatment).
essentialaccount@reddit
This is true in many countries. I have a severe obvious injury missed in Italy, Belgium and partners in Spain and elsewhere. It's one of the downsides of public health pressures
BellChance9931@reddit
It is one of the downsides of public health, or socialism in general. In a private clinic they will do all the necessary tests.
FabianFox@reddit
No this is an issue in the USA too because our private health insurance dictates in what order tests have to occur. If you have pain but no obvious signs of tears or injury, you can only get x rays. If those look good, you have to do so many weeks of physical therapy before insurance will pay for more imaging and scans that can detect soft tissue injuries. And this isn’t even taking I to account human error if a doctor misses something.
waspinastoria@reddit
There are "out of network" options, and though you will pay more, it's not something prohibited. The main problem with US healthcare is access though, and cost of course, but not quality. If I were a millionaire, I would love to have all my healthcare in the US. Here in the US I can see a doctor when I want usually (unless you live in a rural area) but in general the care is far better than in Europe. Europe is great for mild type stuff, but not for serious medical issues. That's why private fills in those gaps. I do agree with you about the waiting times though...recently, it's getting more and more like Europe, unfortunately...at least they have the excuse that it's free, but here we pay through the nose and still delays. That being said, I still think it works better here when it comes to speed and quality. Overall, I believe in all western countries, quality has declined in all areas: education, safety, healthcare, etc, etc.
AdSea6127@reddit
Idk, I agree US system isn’t perfect and it did decline over the years, but I had a pretty serious although small fracture in my wrist, went to the shittiest of urgent cares where they caught it on xray right away, and then was sent to the proper orthopedic hospital where it was re-confirmed and properly casted. I even got a second opinion at 2 different doctors because it was a complex case and they both agreed on the treatment plan and where I stood with healing, etc. everything was covered.
Had MRIs many times for back pain, even though I have no major back issues in my history, still got approved every single time and never had to pay extra.
I am overall very happy with the type of care I get in the US. I also had different insurance over the years that wasn’t always great but I never had to pay astronomic amounts for anything and most importantly things weren’t missed.
CatMinous@reddit
Actually, in the Netherlands, which is of course not a socialist country, you can go to private clinics for many things and get the money reimbursed.
BellChance9931@reddit
Not that many things though...
CatMinous@reddit
I know that you don’t het cosmetic surgery reimbursed, unless medically necessary. Other than that I’m not really aware of specific treatments you can’t take in a private clinic or even abroad, and not get it reimbursed.
BellChance9931@reddit
Try seeing a surgeon or other specialists without the GP referral and waiting for weeks or months... It is not about reimbursement but the lack of a proper private system. Everything is heavily controlled, the state dictates how much each test and consultation should cost, which leads to shortages... This is not normal in a free country.
CatMinous@reddit
The state doesn’t control how much private clinics and private practices can ask, but it determines a certain amount for people to get reimbursed by insurance. I believe the state and insurance companies determine a lot of these things together. Most hospitals and practitioners will work that way, it gets them a lot of patients. It doesn’t make the country unfree.
Same misunderstanding as with people who think you can’t just buy a house in the Netherlands. Yes you can. That’s a private negotiation between private people. But if you want a rent controlled property or anything in that sphere you can’t just get something you want, where and when you want.
fwork_@reddit
Happened to me in Italy too, they just refused to do an MRI and didn't detect I had a torn ACL and meniscus until I went back days after because my knee got to the size of a small melon. There's bad doctors everywhere unfortunately
Mysterious-Reach-374@reddit
There are bad doctors everywhere, but the difference is that in some countries there is private practice and you have the choice. In Greece I can go to any doctor in private practice without having to beg for referrals. If I am not happy with a certain doctor, I can just go to another one. I don't think the doctors in the NL are bad, but the system does not give you the freedom to decide for your own mental healthcare even if you are paying and that's the problem in my view!
spasticnapjerk@reddit
Doubly bad because a doctor doesn't need an MRI to diagnose a torn ACL or a meniscus tear.
FarkCookies@reddit
I had 3 broken bones in the Netherlands (I am not Dutch for the matter) and got better care than in other countries. One fracture they didn't detect in Germany in the first hospital (detected in the second one), later, when I came back to the NL, I got really good follow-up treatment (surely better than in Germany). In another case, I had a very hard-to-detect fracture, and my HA (GP) insisted on an MRI to be 100% sure. Anecdotes are, of course, anecdotes, but if you live somewhere long enough, you will always know a husband of a sister of your colleague who was not treated right. You can not compare the quality of healthcare based on a few good/bad stories; this is an insanely poor selection. Is the Dutch system good? Maybe not. Do other countries have similar issues? Seems like yes, they do.
Single-Chair-9052@reddit
Omg I’m so sorry. Is there nothing to be done now?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Nope, Dutch people insist that's it's the best healthcare in the world.
blaberrysupreme@reddit
What they mean is that they have the most efficient healthcare in the world. Meaning that the system is what it can be as the minimally acceptable version at the lowest cost to the government.
In some cases that means you are simply a number, a statistic, rather than an individual with needs.
Apprehensive-Tip3828@reddit
Mmm American here with private health care insurance and I too also get treated like a number/a statistic here in the US
blaberrysupreme@reddit
I think it would be hard to find a 'developed' country with a healthcare system worse than the US to be honest.
In the Netherlands healthcare is still affordable for individuals and -while privatized- insurance companies and healthcare institutions are highly regulated.
Successful_Language6@reddit
I have phenomenal health care in the US. My cancer was found and 100% removed and the area reconstructed under one of the best plastic surgeons in the medical center in under 2 months.
Hazel1928@reddit
If you have good insurance , the US is the best healthcare in the world.
ZlpMan@reddit
Western Europe is well known for it’s high threshold of living. Those they never compare “the best in your country vs the best in their country”, they compare “the worst”. And yes, the worst insurance in US is worse than the worst insurance in Netherlands.
The rule of thumbs: if you have no ambitions move to the western EU 😅
Business_Pangolin801@reddit
Arguably the bets private healthcare in the world is in South Africa where you get the best of modern treatments but a significantly smaller pool of people competing for it because well the giant wealth gap. Used to encounter a lot of Americans in our system.
greaper007@reddit
My dad won't stop talking about his SA cardiologist in the US.
Business_Pangolin801@reddit
Who can blame him, we invented or at least performed the first heart transplant.
Apprehensive-Tip3828@reddit
Not surprised at all given the rise in medical tourism
you-face-JaraxxusNR8@reddit
As a dutchie healthcare does suck here. But is not the worst. Those who say it is the best are liars.
sewingkitteh@reddit
Definitely not the worst, but I always felt like it was disorganized and many doctors lacked adequate hands on training, and also just didn’t care.
lovethecomm@reddit
Are you talking about the huisartsen? Because I work in an academic hospital and the quality of care is very high.
sewingkitteh@reddit
Yes but I did visit a hospital once and they were not helpful, disorganized, and sent a huge bill.
Hazel1928@reddit
The age cut offs for angioplasty and chemotherapy are shocking to an American.
CatMinous@reddit
I don’t know of an age cutoff for chemotherapy in the Netherlands. I’ve known many old people get it. On the other hand, sometimes the advice is not to get it or to get screened because statistically speaking the outcome is better for older people if they don’t. But that is 100% in the interest of the patient.
Hazel1928@reddit
I found this. It sounds like there is not a hard and fast cut off age, but perhaps the factors they consider tend to cause a general range after which cancer is not treated.
https://journals.viamedica.pl/oncology_in_clinical_practice/article/view/87375
CatMinous@reddit
Page does not load. Looks like a polish article, given the url?
Hazel1928@reddit
Well, it said that Europe does not have cut off ages, but considers comorbidities in deciding whether to treat for CA.
CatMinous@reddit
That’s not what it said. It’s about a cohort of Polish patients. Europe is not a centralised area with equal healthcare. These Polish patients were studied for the degree to which they, themselves, kept in compliance of treatment.
But of course comorbidities are considered in treatment. It would be malpractice if they weren’t. If you are so frail you cannot take chemotherapy you will die from it. My father in law died from chemotherapy. I’ve known a lot of old people in the Netherlands who got chemo, one of them didn’t want to do it but they talked him into it and his wife still tells me when I see her: “I wish we’d resisted.”
I don’t know where this idea comes from that people are refused treatment in the Netherlands. Is that the famous “death panel” thing that the American right wing invented about European health care? I’ve heard of that.
Hazel1928@reddit
My mother told me this story about a European co-worker of my father’s who had a parent who was not treated for cancer. Now that I think sbout it this would have been France in the 1970s. So who knows? I will take your word for it about NL. Sounds similar to the situation in the US. We do have universal healthcare for people 65 and over, as you probably know.
CatMinous@reddit
Yes, Medicare. And Medicaid, but that’s for other groups, I believe?
Hazel1928@reddit
Medicare is for people 65 and over, or people deemed disabled by the government. Medicaid is for low income people of any age. Some people have both.
CatMinous@reddit
Ah, right.
CatMinous@reddit
But, Hazel, apart from the fact that the article indeed is Polish and refers to Polish patients, I see nothing about a cutoff age for chemotherapy. This is a study into patient compliance.
Hazel1928@reddit
I admit I was mistaken.
CatMinous@reddit
Ok
CatMinous@reddit
Oh it just came in. Give me a minute.
VliegendeBamischijf@reddit
There are no hard age cut offs for both of those treatments (at least here in NL, dont know about other EU countries) and people who tell you that are spreading misinformation. An individual doctor may make the decision to not perform one of those treatmentson older patients cause it may not actually increase their life expectancy or quality of life enough to be worth the risk of a big treatment, but this will not be because of monetary reasons as this is against the ethical code that doctors have to follow.
Flabberingfrog@reddit
Norwegian here. Our system beats the Dutch. Granted, there is less "competition" among the health care providers, and you may have to jump around until you find someone you like, which can take time. However, everything is free, and it is the most cost-effective. I have no idea what a family here pays in health insurance per year, but it is irritating enough!
Single-Chair-9052@reddit
What do you mean everything is free, I wanna move there so much 🥲
terenceill@reddit
That's because they read some stupid statistics that said so.
They are not able to give their point of view.
MastodontFarmer@reddit
> it's the best healthcare in the world
No. It is not.
Mostly, it is about a thousand times less bad than the US system.
DutchPerson5@reddit
Not all Dutch. It's what we are told. If I had known I would have gone for fertility to Belgium. If I had the resources I would go to Germany for LongCovid treatment.
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
Belgium has a very good healthcare accessibility. But you have to know your way so you can get the best out of it.
DrJakeX@reddit
Its objectively in the top 5-7 worldwide in most lists. Just because you dont receive antibiotics for each course of fever or an xray for a broken pinky toe, does not make a health care system bad.
Tappone@reddit
Me nor any of my surrounding people claim this, dunno where you're getting this from. We know the issues of the health care system.
Annashida@reddit
So they also say it’s “free” ?
FriedLipstick@reddit
Im Dutch and I don’t insist on that. I’m grateful for help when I get it but also I don’t feel medical safety here. And OP I feel for you. You’ve described how I feel mostly. One thing that is very difficult for me is the loneliness. Living in a small village being alone and feeling alone.
Roodditor@reddit
Noone I know claims it’s the best healthcare in the world. It has its upsides and downsides.
xlouiex@reddit
Reddit is open for everyone, we can all read those posts. Saying “No One” is flat out lie. It’s not all Dutch people, probably not even half, but they exist and are numerous.
Roodditor@reddit
Hence, 'noone I know'. Learn to read.
bespoketranche1@reddit
There’s so many I’ve come across in pregnancy and mom subs. And then I read a post like this and I’m like “surprise surprise”….
Pillendreher92@reddit
As a German, 2 comments from the customer. 1. German who went to the Netherlands: "I wish I had German health insurance in the Netherlands. The basic insurance there is cheap, but if I want to have the same coverage as in Germany, I have to book so many additional modules that it becomes very expensive." 2. German who returns to Germany from the Netherlands. "It's terrible what is deducted from Hehslt for health insurance in Germany."
Phedre777@reddit
I have to roll my eyes at the complaints about healthcare here. My family back in the States can only afford to see a doctor in an actual emergency. If you’re rich and can pay the appointment fees, sure, you get great care. If you’re not, you avoid going because of co-pays or you simply can’t afford insurance at all. Europe really has first world problems.
PowerfulIron7117@reddit
Well I’ve had the reverse - doctors in Italy fucked up a minor break so badly messing around with it that it turned into a huge issue that took months for the Dutch hospital to fix. I’ve spent a lot of time with the Dutch healthcare system and found it phenomenal.
marayrayy@reddit
Yes me too. I’m from Canada and I’ve had no luck at all with the specialists there. The doctors here have been so insanely supportive and knowledgeable. They caught a complete tear of my ligament in my elbow and so many other issues that was missed in Canada. I find that the doctors are more concerned and patient oriented than in Canada.
Ava2969ny@reddit
u/marayrayy - when did you leave Canada? What province missed your health issues? I'm just curious as to whether there are some provinces that are doing healthcare better than others.
marayrayy@reddit
This year. I was in Alberta where the provincial government is absolutely gutting the healthcare system. They cut millions of dollars to healthcare funding and tons of healthcare professionals relocated to other provinces. Before I was able to see a doctor the same day. Currently, it turned into a month to two month wait now. I’m sure it’s worse since I have left. I started to use an online doctor form because I had better luck with doctors consulting from other provinces than seeing a doctor in person.
Plus most of the specialists I have been to don’t really care to look at the symptoms but just to assume it’ll go away in a few days despite it being present for years. They don’t really look at treatment or pain management, they look at it in a severity way. If it isn’t at the point of fully crippling you, they don’t care enough to treat it. I had a neurologist walk out the room while I was asking him a question about my diagnoses. I had another doctor tell me if I didn’t have photos he wouldn’t have believed me. There’s so many more experiences that I did not put down but it’s a shit show.
When I made my first appointment here and transferred all my medical files to the clinic, they instantly took it seriously and sent me to two specialists right away and were shocked that I was still dealing with it for two years now. A lot of Dutch people complain about being dismissed and told to take paracetamol and then come back. I’d rather have that than a doctor looking at my results (which were concerning apparently, found out when I read my files) and saying I’m perfectly fine.
Hazel1928@reddit
Where is here?
BellChance9931@reddit
That's what happens when the healthcare system is not private. Incentives disappear and there are no repercussions for mistakes.
VliegendeBamischijf@reddit
This is one of the dumbest comments I have ever read
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
I am incredibly surprised to hear that the Dutch health care is not well received. One of my reasons for seriously considering moving there is the healthcare but I suppose it doesn’t get much worse than where I am frim.
Unhappy_Performer538@reddit
As an American myself it seems like you just don’t get it. You’re dismissed, not listened to, and there’s little to no preventative care in the Netherlands in the name of efficiency. There’s literally an earlier death rate in the Netherlands bc of this attitude towards health than in neighboring countries where proper care and prevention is favored over efficiency.
Fokare@reddit
0.5 years life expectancy higher than Germany, 0.6 lower than Belgium and 3.6 years above the US.
Hazel1928@reddit
How about comparing to the US for 60 year olds. Once you reach 60 in the US, your life expectancy is over 20 years- i forget the exact numbers, maybe 82 for men and 84 for women.
Fokare@reddit
20.7 years for women and 18.2 years for men at age 65 in the US, 20.9 for women and 18.8 at age 65 in the Netherlands. You do have a lot of people dying to (prescription) drugs at relatively young ages in the US, it’s more similar at these ages sure.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db521.htm
https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2024/45/prognose-levensverwachting-65-jarigen-20-96-jaar-in-2030
Hazel1928@reddit
I’m surprised. I thought that they didn’t treat cancer after a cut off age in the Netherlands. And maybe they don’t but it evens out because they don’t have as much obesity.
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
I admit, I don’t know what the medical system is like in the Netherlands. And I admit that my personal experiences vary from others, of course they do. And I also recognize this is likely largely influenced by my age and gender, but I have experienced little more than dismissal and being ignored. I pushed for over 3 years for a certain diagnostic test to be done and was always dismissed. If I had not pushed, they would have ignored a cancerous tumor because of my age for 5+ years.
I do recognize this is my own personal experience. It seems in this respect the healthcare of the two nations can be somewhat similar, at least in some specialities. But I’d rather not be paying $20,000+ in health related expenses a year to be dismissed and ignored.
pettyminaj@reddit
You must be American. As another American who moved to NL the healthcare is still way better than the US, but the bar is very low for that.
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
Yep. It is hard to get worse than the US, especially with chronic conditions. I have lost complete faith in the medical system after witnessing how, even with cancer, the standard of care is almost nonexistent.
Hazel1928@reddit
If you have good insurance, I think US healthcare is very good. I have Medicare (over 65). I pay about $500 per month for part B and a supplement. I see all the doctors I need, no out of pocket charge. Even hospital stays are completely covered.
Dependent-Cherry-129@reddit
Yes and no. I think the US is fine for basic care. Once you have something major happen with your health, it can get incredibly dicey and really turns into what top specialists you can pay for
Hazel1928@reddit
I had breast cancer and I had original Medicare with a supplement. I went to Cancer Treatment Center of America. (No longer in Philadelphia since Covid.) It was incredible . The first floor feels like a nice hotel with huge fish tanks and someone playing a grand piano. Upstairs they had every sort of specialist you might need, all in one building. And I wasn’t charged a dime. They had me fill out a hardship form so any costs that would be billed to the patient were covered. And on the days I saw my oncologist, i could get a massage and separate from that, see I chiropractor. Those were optional services that I found helpful. Anyway, I would say that the care I received was some of the best in the world.
Dependent-Cherry-129@reddit
I think the key is that you had Medicare - so many people, my mom included, have really crappy health insurance with massive deductibles
Hazel1928@reddit
Yeah. That’s the problem with our system.
sherpes@reddit
good friend, age 63, got laid off from company, along with many others, since the company is not profitable. Okay. But the problem in the USA is that health care insurance is sponsored by your employer. If you don't have an employer, you don't easily get good health insurance. Many small companies that don't want to see their premiums increase because a member in the group got very sick, incentivizes the small companies to hire young healthy employees, and definitely not the 63 year old who is looking for any employment, and hopefully make it to age 65 when Medicare can cover.
sewingkitteh@reddit
I’m 29 and I’ve been on Medicaid for years. It’s awesome but now Trump is going to kick a lot of people off of it next year :/ so then it becomes even more tied to your job.
Annashida@reddit
Your friend should definitely get insurance for these 2 years. Hope he is smart enough to not stay without one at his age.
Annashida@reddit
Exactly. Same with my husband. He pays zero everytime he goes to the doctor. The only thing he pays for is his eye exam and dental. He had very high blood pressure the other day and we went to emergency and he was examined within minutes, stabilized, we both were given dinner even as it was dinner time and he paid zero. I fell and cut my hip, was brought to hospital by ambulance, spent there a night as at one point I lost consciousness and they wanted to observe me. My insurance covered everything ambulance included and follow up visits.
godsavedonalduck@reddit
It is hard to get worse than the US>
The NHS would like a word
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
Yes, I have heard the NHS is rough.
But waits here, even though it is a private system, have become much longer. It is normal for endocrinologists, for example, to have 8+ months waits and they wanted me to wait 6+ months to get immediate follow up care after a thyroidectomy which would have killed me (mentally, at least). I had to wait over 2 years to see a specialist out of state despite multiple referrals. In the specialities I deal with, 3 month waiting time is pretty standard post COVID.
bespoketranche1@reddit
If you’re willing to move countries, have you considered moving states? I honestly don’t experience any waits for generalists and specialists. I finally decided to remove my gallbladder…wrote to my surgeon on Monday, got scheduled on Tuesday for an early Thursday surgery. You think socialized healthcare will get you to an endocrinologist fast? Socialized healthcare is great for preventative and routine care but for these kinds of specialties you are much better off with private care, but live somewhere where a lot of these specialists live.
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
Wow, that is pretty incredibly timing. Yes, once I am done with school I might consider moving states. I live in the West and I often have to go to California for medical care, which is honestly pretty ridiculous. I think the cost is one of the largest downsides of staying here, given the tenuous nature of health insurance coverage and the risk for extreme medical debt. My family easily spends $20,000+ a year for medical care that isn’t covered by insurance + out of pocket fees, which in of itself doesn’t include the actual cost of insurance.
bespoketranche1@reddit
Thanks! Yes, I was amazed myself because this is the end of the year where everyone is rushing to get things done. But once I got older I shopped better for private insurance based on my needs and never pay nearly as much. If you have constant medical needs, I’d say stay away from high deductible plans unless you have no other options. Depending on the European country, you may not end up paying 5k extra a year but you will be denied for services that the GP doesn’t see as necessary. That’s why I say your situation may be better off handled in the US, but in an area where these specialists live.
Annashida@reddit
What country are you talking about? It’s for sure not in US.
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
It is 100% the US. If you haven't had that experience, I'm happy for you. To be fair, I do find it does depend a lot on location and speciality, though I do live in a big city, but wait times and doctor shortages have exploded since covid.
Annashida@reddit
I don’t doubt your experience but my family is not strangers to hospitals and chronic illnesses. My father had 6 morbid illnesses and was in and out of the hospitals since he had heart attack at 46 until he passed from Covid at 79. He never had to wait more than a week for any tests or doctors appointments. He had maculate degeneration for years and was seen almost immediately from the very beginning by eye doctors. He went to heart doctor as he felt something was off with his heart after heart attack and next day he was operated on. As I mentioned few of my friends had cancer and all of them were praising care they were given with treatments and appointments .
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
I think, as with a lot of things in America, it has to do with luck. I will admit that, despite the initially few months to get a consult with an oncologist, my father's treatment itself was handled pretty well and on the intended schedule. However, when I was diagnosed with cancer this year I did not feel that there was much care given towards my condition, perhaps because I am young and look "fine." I had to fight tooth and nail to get doctors to view my concerns seriously and perform a biopsy on a tumor, that though suspicious, they dismissed because I am young. Even after the tumor was removed, it has been an uphill battle to see aftercare and continue treatment, with most wait times over 6 months.
Annashida@reddit
Wow that’s sad to hear . Hope you are allright now. Have you change doctors? I changed many doctors as of course as all humans you can encounter good and bad. We had an absolutely awful doctor few years ago and after few visits we changed him.
PsychologicalQuiet46@reddit
. Doctors are definitely human, as you said, and can vary a lot. We have tried to switch doctors, but the issue with my area is that nearly all doctors in certain specialties are part of a few practices, and they have this rule that you cannot see another doctor if you have seen another in the group. This wouldn’t be an issue if some of these groups have 50+ doctors, nearly all in the area, and are rigid with that rule. I have had to go to California just to consult with other doctors as a result.
I also forgot to add that I am sorry to hear about your father.
Annashida@reddit
Thank you.. he was kind of done with this life even before Covid. He became very sick with almost loosing his sight and he couldn’t hear. He only regretted for not retiring sooner. He retired only 3 years before Covid got him. Which state is that? How crazy .. it’s like this doctors mafia going on. How will they know if you went to a certain doctor ? Is it all recorded in your records?
Icy_Dot500@reddit
I’ve had similar experiences. It honestly just depends. I’m in NJ so population density is crazy and sometimes it takes a long time to be seen. 6-12 months for endo. 2-3 months neurologist unless it’s a follow up then usually a few weeks notice. I wanted to have my yearly physical with my primary and I called in August, her first appt was in January. Other times I can call specialists and get in within a few days to few weeks because they get cancellations and can get you in or put you in a list to call for cancellations. Secrete cases or emergencies are always seems quicker but follow ups and first appts that are chronic or no emergent you can wait a while sometimes. I have good insurance thankfully so I can just go to specialists without needing referrals. Which really is nice. I used to have other insurance where I needed referrals and it was a big pain.
funkygrrl@reddit
It's like that all over now. I have friends where I live who cannot get a primary, been looking for 2 years. Their primary is urgent care. I have a 9 month wait to see a glaucoma ophthalmologist, 7 month wait for dermatologist, 6 month wait for endocrinology. I had to go 2 hours away for my annual mammogram because they had a year-long wait where I live. And I'm in a state with 4 medical schools, a national hub for medicine. I think the "but the wait times" argument against universal healthcare is pure propaganda. There's other arguments I suppose, but that one is absolute disingenuous bullshit.
Annashida@reddit
Where is it??? I live in south Florida right across medical plaza actually. I dont remember last year I had primary doctor. All they do is send you to specialists anyway. I never ever had to wait even a week for any appointment. You just call around and see who has the closest appointment available. Months of wait? In US? My husband vision went bad at one point and within few days he already was seen by eye doctor and next day went to glaukoma specialist.
funkygrrl@reddit
All over New England. I'm in Massachusetts. We have some the highest ranked hospitals in the world like Mass General/ Harvard and Dana Farber cancer institute. There's no shortage of specialists here. It's just the norm these days.
Annashida@reddit
It’s definitely not a norm in South Florida. At least in Broward county . Not sure how this in Miami. There I won’t surprised at anything 😂
Icy_Dot500@reddit
Yup wait times with insurance can still be crazy. And getting crazier.
Roodditor@reddit
NL won't be much better for you then.
tussentweewindmolen@reddit
I would actually say healthcare is much worse in NL than in the US. Doctors here will only tell you to take paracetamol and come back in two weeks if there’s no change. There’s no preventative care or screening whatsoever. They routinely deny referrals and tests. Nothing here gets treated unless it’s obviously severe. And it’s still expensive. Nearly €400 per month in premiums for my household for this kind of service. In the US it’s also expensive (except I actually paid far less as a grad student in the US for comprehensive health insurance due to our union) but at least doctors there do something.
There are plenty of reasons to choose NL over the US, but health care isn’t one of them imo. Is it cheaper in the long run (once you factor in actually getting to the point of seeing a specialist or being hospitalized)? Yes. Will you ever actually get to the point where it’s cheaper? No.
213McKibben@reddit
In the US tough, one can lose everything from hospitalization as I had a relative hospitalized during COVID and after 3 weeks of ICU and another 3 weeks of hospitalization, receiving a bill of over $353,000 after the insurance paid their share. In the US, your employer has more influence of who your healthcare provider is and I view this as unacceptable. Which one is best? Or must determine this for themselves.
tussentweewindmolen@reddit
I know how expensive it can be in the US and would say if you have a serious illness like cancer, NL will certainly be cheaper. What I view as the tradeoff there though is earlier diagnosis plus huge costs (US) vs your concerns being ignored so that your disease has progressed more by the time it’s caught but lower costs (NL).
In NL you also do not have a choice who your provider is. You must register at a doctor’s office in your neighborhood.
Annashida@reddit
Yeah and that is really bad when you can’t choose or change a doctor. Here in US I don’t even need a referral. I can go to any doctor I choose at any time. I pay more for insurance but it was intentional informed choice made by me to not have to go to a doctor for referral .
Annashida@reddit
Not sure what kind of insurance your relative has but in vast majority of cases insurance pays for absolutely everything. The rest can be negotiated with hospital. I live here in US for 36 years, had both self employed and company paid health insurance and was hospitalized and had surgeries and raised a family here and I never ever I was hit with any bill beyond copayments. Once I had a bill which supposed to be a copayment for hospital stay of 18k and I negotiated it to 1k . I had few friends who unfortunately went through cancer treatments and none of them paid a penny. One passed away, the rest survived and doing well until this day. My father had heart surgery and all was covered by his insurance. He spent a week in a hospital. My present insurance for example covers all bills of hospital stay up until 3 months. If someone has to stay past 3 months in a hospital it’s someone who is on life support. No one ever will be refused service here. A client went into hospital with some pain in his stomach and ended up having major surgery. He had no insurance and surgery ended up costing 100k. He made a payment plan of 25$ per month and paid it until he passed away few year later .
Longjumping_Ant3459@reddit
As an American, that's crazy for me to hear. Many Euro's brag about their free healthcare, but the quality of care doesn't sound that great. We have our own issues here (high costs, influence of big pharma), but I am coming to believe our quality of care is much better than it gets credit for.
NicoleJenee@reddit
I agree and that’s the number one reason we would never go back. Living in Portugal now and I went to the GP and requested both a mammogram and colonoscopy because I’m 46 and it’s about the time to start screening and without any hesitation and wrote the referrals (plus more that I don’t even ask for!). And it’s free.
Dohnjoy@reddit
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
Suspicious-Wallaby12@reddit
Ofcourse... But I've heard these stories all around Netherlands. For every postive experience, there's a negative one out there as well.
Bfor200@reddit
Expats here in the Netherlands often seek healthcare for very minor things like having a cold or a mild flu. Dutch people do not go to the doctor for minor things like this.
This has led to the situation where doctors have become very critical of expats and they don't take them as seriously.
peanutbutterloverx@reddit
Healthcare in Canada is a dealbreaker for me. It’s the worst I’ve ever seen, including developing countries.
taraaataraaa@reddit
The healthcare was a dealbreaker for me in sweden. Awful yo learn that its a fuckup in so many places.
bruhbelacc@reddit
When you don't pay for it privately, they are doing you a favor indeed and can decide to treat you however you want. You either have a problem with accessibility (private system) or scarcity (public).
Icy-Temperature377@reddit
I am not sure how it works in NED, but im Croatia I pay so much money into public healthcare each month from my taxes I could look like Brad Pitt in a year from all the plastic surgery I could pay for that amount of money I paid and never used.
So no, you do pay for it, just not at the checkin/checkout, but every single month of your life in taxes.
bruhbelacc@reddit
So you don't pay for it. That's what I'm saying. At the moment something becomes tax-funded, you stop being a customer with rights - you are practically a slave that the government can treat however it wants.
changeisconstant2@reddit
Public health care isn't enough for sporty people. I don't know in cycling, but in football and athletics, every hobby club i joined required or recommended me to have private sports insurance for sport related injuries. I learned it the hardway after ankle fracture in a football match.
Sad_Layer_1886@reddit
I’m Dutch, born and raised in the Netherlands and I left to live in Greece on the island of Crete for exact the same reasons you describe. Spot on. I hate to say it but the Netherlands, on their way to prosperity have lost its human touch in many facets of daily life. Industrialization has become dehumanization. We do will miss the family moments as you describe them. Our children, grandchildren, birthdays and we know we will be flying back to the Netherlands a lot for those reasons. But waking up, stepping out of the door direct into a nature that embraces you with warmth and authenticity and food that’s pure and has the sun inside is such a. If difference. Let alone the friendly people. And yes, the Greek language is difficult but by stepping full into Greek daily life that will come over time. The fact that the first Greek words we were welcomed with after we had our one way ticket were “Siga Siga” meaning something like everything is fine, take your time, no need to rush made us shift down a couple of gears. That low battery feeling, the energy drainage and a constant sense of pressure or tension that seems to rule live in the Netherlands, and the financial pressure now are slowly leaving our system and bringing us to a more normal rhythm in sync with what nature has to offer
edon-node@reddit
Once financial problems went away, emotional ones came on top. The genuine laughter with your own family is irreplaceable, the jokes make sense, everything makes sense, there’s no place like home.
1ntuos@reddit
Yeah. As a dutchy that lived in Asia I completely feel the same about feeling low and not very alive here. Been back for some years but still miss the real-ness of those countries, plus of course nature and the weather
Aardappelhuree@reddit
Asia is a big place, can you be more specific
1ntuos@reddit
Indonesia, Bali region. Stayed in Philippines years before that too, friendliest people in the world
airsyadnoi@reddit
If you go to more remote islands or areas in Indonesia, the people are even friendlier
1ntuos@reddit
Yeah, goes for most areas in Asia, the more rural, the chiller and friendlier ^^
Green_Mind60@reddit
Agree. The places I visited (China, Cambodia, Indonesia and Thailand) in Asia were choked with terrible air quality, traffic, water and power issues, healthcare.
TheXXStory@reddit
Taiwan actually has #1 healthcare in the world :) - according to multiple rankings at least. That's factoring in quality, ease of access/speed, & cost.
awkwardly-appealing@reddit
Same here :( id move back in a heartbeat.
Single-Chair-9052@reddit
I feel you, I miss Asia so much
Beginning_Show7066@reddit
I think you’re articulating something which I believe is a part of the expat experience people often miss. Which is that the details of your day-to-day life - the relationships, the environment, the weather, the rhythms of your day, the food, the sense of community - often have a far greater impact on your sense of wellbeing and belonging than the macro. People can be very happy in places that look like hell on paper if the day to day feels good and nourishing. And can be utterly miserable in very functional places for the same reason.
It sounds like you’re moving back to somewhere that speaks to your soul and that is very hard to replicate. Best of luck with your move!
Vegetable-Panic4566@reddit
This is so real! Of course nationwide challenges impact the individual but our own villages are what sustains us. In another expat subreddit someone was asking for pet relocation advice from the US to Russia and basically no one answered their question and just yelled at them about how moving to Russia was stupid. But it’s where their family and community live 🤷🏻♂️
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
A friend of mine moved back to South Africa...
eskudella@reddit
I can relate what OP says about healthcare: I got an hernia, family doctor says It’s just a back pain. After two weeks with no attention, I had to pay by myself and MRI to show the hernia to the GP. I even change to another GP to see that is a usual practice; waiting and ibuprofen for everything. They will not do nothing preventively, mostly because the deals the practitioners has with the Insurance. I firmly believe that is more a question of economy and how expensive is for the small clinics to derivate to the specialists. But hey, pay your 200e almost insurance and beside that the eigenrisico 385eur with almost no covers. You need fisiotherapy for the hernia? Pay it. Or pay a better insurance. This for me is the dealbreaker, followed by the crazy rent market for housing. Not the country I meet 8 years ago, sadly.
Time-Box-1594@reddit
My wife and I are planning to leave The Netherlands to, it feels no longer home and the prices are so high. Indeed getting help from your doctor feels like a highway and the waiting list for hospitals are very long, no this not feels like my country anymore. We want to spent time outside in the hills and eat food with passion. This country has good things but we we want new people around us , and not see angry faces in a food store . Walking outside in the sun and not live in a place were nobody says anything to you , goodbye 2026 will be a different year.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Good luck to you!
Time-Box-1594@reddit
Bedankt, thanks and good luck to you to
doepfersdungeon@reddit
When you know you know. Took me 2 years to reach the same conclusion in NL. I'll be honest I don't think that place has good energy at all. First 6 months was a magical summer. Only downhill after that. Was very bad for my soul. I think certain people love it. Or at least think they do. For others, many that I know, it felt incredibly oppressive. Ill disagree with only about one thing. I think you are being too diplomatic when you say there is nothing wrong with the place. I think the place is actually quite broken and trying to convince everyone its not.
You are returning to nature , family , culture, fresh food, sunshine. Sounds like a good move. Yes Italy is a mess in many ways but hopefully the good outweighs the bad. I suspect it will. Good luck!
jekemboofer@reddit
Yeah, I've noticed lots of thinga being broken heee as an expat as well but at least weed and hash can be bought here anywhere legally so that's dealbreaker for me.
JaxStrumley@reddit
Exactly the thing many Dutch people hate foreign tourists for.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
I actually find the weed thing about of a gimmick and just another way of taxing society. Same with prostitution. The claim is that decriminalisation makes it safer. I'm not sure. I heard that trafficking is rife still and the red-light and drug imports from the middle east amd Africa ar basically just given the "look the other way" treatment and run by criminal networks. There's a huge hypocrisy going on. For me , whilst I know people who seem to be enjoy weed on a very responsible and creative level, a society that keeps itself stoned and uses drugs like that to medicate itself through life isn't really functioning very well and only pleads to my sense of Netherlands being a bit trapped and stuck when it comes to actually moving forward as a society. Also the strains now available are so strong that I really don't see it as a good thing to encourage people to do. It bares no relation to natural versions of the past. I know many disagree though.
CatMinous@reddit
Bit much to say the society keeps itself stoned. I don’t even know any people that smoke pot. Just my Canadian friend (in Canada.)
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
I agree with many complaints on NL but I would not call it a society that ‘keeps itself stoned to self Medicate.’
Most Dutch people don’t smoke weed regularly. Much less than any other country I have lived. In fact I think it would serve them better if they did occasionally smoke weed. The ones I know who do smoke weed are way more chill and less uptight/anal than the average dutchie.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
I'd probably agree with that. Which in a way makes it weird that there's such a large industry other than it being for tourists. I think I just meant drugs generally. Including alcohol. Its no different to UK etc. I enjoy psychedelics and the odd drink but when drugs become habitual and party of economic mainstay i dont really get it. Think it's a bit of a prison.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
I would agree with that more. Dutch people love their synthetic drugs - especially ecstasy - and alcohol. Both are way more negative than weed.
If only they stuck more to the legal natural things like weed & mushrooms - they would be much healthier mentally & physically.
No_Manager_0x0x0@reddit
Brave New World
Greenhairymonster@reddit
Oppressive in what way?
Quirky_Magician9188@reddit
Houses are small, but outdoor public spaces are crowded too and sometimes it just never feels like you can get any space.
JaxStrumley@reddit
It’s a small country with an extremely high immigration rate… what did you expect?
bostanite@reddit
I don't know how and why exactly, but coming from South Europe it just feels like that. It's as if you are trapped without really being trapped. I don't make any sense I know hahaha
doepfersdungeon@reddit
It is indeed hard to describe. I felt very weighed down and heavy there. Like my joy and health was being sucked out for, physically, mentally , socially. Sometimes a place just doesn't work for certain people. I know many Nl just does agree with the needs of their soul and body, from nutrition, sunlight and nature, to social attitudes and expectations and work. It's nothing personal. Some people feel the earth, atmosphere and vibrations of places more than others. For me it felt like living in a WHO dystopian project a bit with oppressive overstepping police system and tech centralisation for tracking and monitoring. To others it maybe feels like paradise.
CatMinous@reddit
What? I kind of agree with you on everything….but an oppressive police force? In the Netherlands?
Connie_FTW@reddit
I get exactly what you mean. It's the many little things adding up. Lack of spontaneity, lack of interest from natives to socialize with you, strict adherence to habits that are totally different than one's culture, a certain "we're better than you" attitude, 7-8 months of November per year - but at the end of the month you are left with some disclosable income (although that has been less and less the past years), you have an actual shot at buying your own house, and, not to be dancing around it, money and opportunities. That you don't have at your home country, period. At no fault of your own.
bostanite@reddit
100% this. Lack of spontaneity. Every single detail planned into exhaustion, weeks ahead.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
Sometimes, even months ahead. I can't do diary style life. We don't need to slot in an hr for a catchup 6 weeks away. Your life isn't that busy . Don't turn up 10 minutes late either. Otherwise you'll be scowled at. Time is precious don't you know.
BaileysBaileys@reddit
Interestingly, as a native dutch person that is the thing I really like about NL. Having lived abroad (and loved it) the spontaneity in other countries felt too intrusive to me. So apparently these things are ingrained in us through culture and cannot be entirely changed. There are other things I don't like in NL though.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
Well, it’s Dutch for a reason.
One thing that does irritate me is when my Dutch friends travel they looooove how friendly locals are and being invited by locals to do things. Dutch people have massive boners for that.
But when the situation is switched and they are the locals, they never do the same for other travellers. As a sort of Dutch person I have taken it upon myself to show that same warmth towards travellers as I have received, especially the ones from countries who treat us so well.
simple_explorer1@reddit
Beautifully put. This is not just Dutch but most of the northern European countries.
BaileysBaileys@reddit
Yes, this is true! Another gripe of mine is how we as dutch people seem to be unable to understand cultural sensitivities and *have* to ask the traveller on their opinion on [insert controversial topic here] as if to question their 'okay-ness'. Ugh.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
Well as a native you probably would like it. Old habits die hard. Each to their own. Whatever works. For many that aat of life feels rigid and lacking energy. Others I'm sure jt brings sone sort of peace. Takes all sorts in this world.
femmebotfairydust@reddit
Do you mean it's claustrophobic, or do you mean oppressive in the way that society is organised? or both?
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
The system is remarkably oppressive. In the same way that you might consider China oppressive, the Netherlands is a less extreme example of that. The society forces you into a role hard, already from a young age. And it makes it extremely hard for you to deviate from that role. Both in governmental control + bureaucracy as well as societally. The whole ‘nuchter’ this is just a way for society to chop down eccentric/passionate people and force them to also just become standard kegs in the system. Also Dutch people really look down on passion/emotions which imo is a huge loss. What is life without passion and emotion? It’s fairly robotic.
Pvrnek@reddit
🤣🤣🤣🤣
giftools@reddit
Bunch of bullshit lol. I'll tell you, it's the southern country cultures that are oppressive with all their stupid social traditions
Appropriate_Key_7368@reddit
This sounds like a lot of nonsense to me tbh… or do you live in the village?
BD_Lightsaber@reddit
Glad that you left 👋🏻
doepfersdungeon@reddit
So am I love, so am I.
TheRealTexasDutchie@reddit
For a hot second I thought you posted this in the r/Netherlands sub and I thought, ooh boy!
As a former Dutchie, I think you're spot on. Healthcare is available on the one hand, but it's far from preventative. My 84 year old mother hasn't even had a pneumonia shot and here in the US where I live, it's a given.
I don't like the mindset and attitudes myself and you couple that being in a small country, you just have no alternative. Plus nature is naturally very limited. I totally understand that being in the wild (if you will) is healing.
A few decades ago, I lived in Canada. We had just returned from visiting the Netherlands and were picked up from the airport in Montreal. As we're driving to Ottawa, I felt this literal sense of space (having space) and I felt so relieved. I still remember it!
And now you have experienced what you felt you lacked in the Netherlands, you will not be bothered (as much) by whatever annoys you in Italy, you know why you're back! Best of luck OP!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I know they'd rip me a new one there. Anyway, thank you and best of luck to you too!
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
That’s another thing that bugs me about this place. Dutchies are closely monitoring what you say and think about the country, there’s certain degree of sensitivity there.
whoopwhoop233@reddit
You really think this is not a universal thing? Not even patriotittism/chauvinism, just generally people feeling attacked because they are 'okay' with the life they have in country x?
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
For supposedly a well fared country, the Dutch are incredibly sensitive when it comes to even a slight, polite and to the point criticism. Something tells me that if your confidence is so fragile, that even a stupid buitenlanders comment can shatter it, maybe they do suspect it’s not all that good? I mean, great country, efficient processes, happiest kids - all according to all these high ratings and top-10 country lists, they can’t lie can they?
whoopwhoop233@reddit
I think the typical dutch response is 'take it or leave (it)'. I don't know if that is sensitive. To me, sensitive means an emotional response.
Where are you, and some others in the comments, meeting all these sensitive dutch people?
The things mentioned by OP in their post are mostly not something 'Dutch' culture can change.
JaxStrumley@reddit
Indeed. Crowded? Yes, but as an expat you are contributing to that problem. High inflation? We can thank the southern European nations and their refusal to work on their national debt for that.
Maneisthebeat@reddit
No other cultures do self-deprecation much more openly. The Dutch are incredibly sensitive.
Inevitable-Bag-5310@reddit
Unrelated to OP, but immigrants who chose not to integrate, or at the very least learn the local language really like to tell themselves that. It’s never them.
CatMinous@reddit
The /nederland subreddit is a cesspool. It’s right wing and unpleasant. Thankfully not representative of the country as a whole.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Snake tongue and princess ears!
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
I use it quite often.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
😂 love the expression. Yeah, that exactly.
TheRealTexasDutchie@reddit
Definitely on the subreddit! (And yes, you're right!)
TheRealTexasDutchie@reddit
Yeah, somebody cross posted this on the Dutch subreddit and reactions were as expected 🙄
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Do you have a link?
TheRealTexasDutchie@reddit
I can't see how to do that on my phone but if you check out r/Netherlands, you'll find it.
Plus, what a difference a day makes, I now see a lot of supportive/-ing comments, not in the least from a lot of other expats!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you - it's just for fun!
TheRealTexasDutchie@reddit
You're being validated plus let's be honest, it's nice to feel that it's not "just you" even if your logic says, of course it isn't! (I totally can't be bothered to discuss anything on that sub reddit tbh, I am only there to keep my finger on the pulse because my mom still lives there).
thirdeyediy@reddit
Huh. I've been reading through this sub, and I'm absolutely mind blown.This is so interesting. I am in Ottawa , and I feel like it's so dark and cold in the winters. I have actually been contemplating moving to netherlands!! Just goes to show the grass is greener.
Misty-knight200@reddit
I'm leaving Canada for Netherlands. Please don't let comments and posts like the above deter you. People will always complain about something, no matter what country they are in.
I will never choose Quebec or Ottawa over Western Europe TF??
Ava2969ny@reddit
What is it about Ottawa that makes it so unappealing to some? Is it primarily the cold, the housing, less cultural things to do?
Misty-knight200@reddit
The cold, and that the public transportation is the worst out of the 4 cities in Canada that have a metro. Ottawa isn't really a place where you're walking to the grocery store and taking a quick metro to the dentist during your lunch hour. People tend to drive, and the downtown empties out at night. It also is surprisingly higher rent than one would expect for what you're getting (ofc not as high as Toronto or Vancouver).
I just can't understand picking Ottawa over a major city in western Europe, for any reason except familiarity and family.
TheRealTexasDutchie@reddit
I used to live in Ottawa after I (first) emigrated to Canada! I know exactly what you mean. If you want to escape the long stretch of cold and dark months (or the gray days and slushy winter roads), I think going to NL would be a lateral move, albeit less cold. At least in Canada (well, Ottawa) you get more sun during the winter. I'd opt for a place that's relatively warmer.
Ava2969ny@reddit
Are you saying that you felt a sense of space because Montreal is crowded or because the Netherlands was too crowded?
TheRealTexasDutchie@reddit
I'm saying that the Netherlands is just small in general. It kinda hit me that on our drive from Montreal to Ottawa, we would pass a farm every few minutes of driving whereas in the same stretch in NL, I would have passed several. This was a few decades ago and regardless of population, NL is just a small country. In Canada (and the US), the spaciousness feels really good.
Dankest_Confidant@reddit
Regarding feeling "off" and low energy, have you considered/tested for vitamin D deficiency? You've come from a very sunny Mediterranean country to a country up as far north as eg. Canada. That's asking for a vitamin D deficiency; which will make you feel exactly as you describe in that paragraph.
And just to add, primary means of creating vitamin D is skin exposure to the sun. So just "eating healthy" as you write isn't enough in itself if you live somewhere with as little sunshine as there is in the Netherlands.
Pretend-Librarian-55@reddit
I think we're increasingly living in a world where seems to be nowhere left to go, it's not our problems following us, but the feeling, the disconnect we seek to escape, is blossoming in more countries, like an invasive species. Every country seems to offer us something our home country lacks, but increasingly, it's just not enough, that feeling of "true home" "true friends" "true family" is more and more situational, conditional and never quite as genuine as you expect. Like, I used to get into the usual rare arguments with friends, acquaintances, or coworkers as one does, then we'd make up and things go back to normal. But increasingly, these disagreements suddenly appear out of nowhere, and it's easier for both sides to just pull back, like it's easier to let relationships go, instead of healing it. So yeah, the pull of home is strong, but only time will tell if things have changed, or you've changed enough to reestablish your life there.
MountErrigal@reddit
Sounds pretty comprehensive. I’m not remotely Italian, but even I started yearning for a ‘Marchegiano type of life’
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes that is a drawback! Pros and cons unfortunately ;)
MountErrigal@reddit
That’s what is keeping me from going back to Ireland ..for now
Anyway, wishing you best of luck there mate
Fordlandia@reddit
Seems like you have thought this through and are leaving with a healthy mindset regarding your years in NL. Best of luck to you!
SassyRebelBelle@reddit
Well said! I agree 👍🎯♥️
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you, to you too!
Bubbly-Airport-1737@reddit
i want to move to italy from belgium
i have the same feelings in flanders
ConfusedWhiteDragon@reddit
I'm a Fleming who lives in New Zealand. Volcanoes are interesting.
duiml65@reddit
As a Flemish Belgian in aussie, I have recurrent dreams of my morning runs to a nice bakery in Gent.... 25 years already.
Different_Fly_396@reddit
You would have loved this then, https://alix.gent/events/social-run/
duiml65@reddit
I absolutely loved Gent... so underrated and too many tourists skip it for cities like Paris and Amsterdam when they visit Europe.
PNWstargazur@reddit
I’m a third generation Flemish Belgian (two great grandparents from Handzaeme). I have always dreamed about life there. Is it boring? Safe? Angry?
ConfusedWhiteDragon@reddit
Flemish Belgian is among the top worldwide for most metrics of quality of life, right behind Scandinavia usually. Broad stable middle class, low wealth inequality, which makes it very responsive to its population. Less boring than OP's comment about the Netherlands (Hilly forested south, multiple language cultures to explore, combo of Dutch/French/German cultures all tightly packed together). Top class, beautiful, and very safe place to live.
It does have some downsides too. It's a small cultural group and pretty homogenous, thus hard to break into if you don't look and sound Flemish. Which is ironic, because everybody there speaks perfect English. Depending on your age, I recommend doing a year abroad and exploring your heritage there. Belgium is part of the EU Erasmus program, and has Work Holiday Visa arrangements with many non-EU countries. Easy way to experience it for a year.
Bubbly-Airport-1737@reddit
Very boring toxic and socially weird
PNWstargazur@reddit
I should fit right in 😏
duiml65@reddit
I didn't find Belgium boring... lots to do and see culture wise. Something I miss here in Aussie. On the other hand, people here are more open and friendlier. ps. My great grand parents were from Oostnieuwkerke, village next to Handzame.
ConfusedWhiteDragon@reddit
I used to live there as well and now have the same dream: Koffiekoeken from the bakery. The Belgian expat struggle is all about food and drink.
duiml65@reddit
Indeed... but i am afraid the 'boterkoeken en pistolets' are no longer what they used to be, I heard... lots of independent bakeries closed shops last time I visited... ah, la nostalgie!
External_Security_72@reddit
Wat de hell voor creatie is boterkoek op een pistolet
Curious_Work_6652@reddit
Try exploring the Ardennes, start close to home before making a decision based on nature.
Bubbly-Airport-1737@reddit
I was talking about the stupid people
JW-_-UK@reddit
I have just completed a move from Gent to northern Italy. The nature and mountains are inspiring for this next chapter in life.
Story so far;
London (24 years) -> Gent (9 years) -> Varese (2 months).
Witty-Sympathy1294@reddit
I agree with you, Varese is a great city. Not too big and close to the lake and mountains. I love the location too, close to Switzerland and Milan. Malpensa airport 25 minutes away.
just_bobabout71881@reddit
One of my best friends comes from varese and she’s settled in the NL. She says she doesn’t want to go back to Italy and has renounced her citizenship for Dutch citizenship.
Markk020@reddit
varese is very nice
No-Requirement5208@reddit
You moved from fucking London/Gent to Varese? Really? No offense or anything, I'm just surprised. it's just that as a native person who was born and raised here, and still lives here, I cannot fathom the idea of somebody moving from London or Belgium to Varese. Welcome, enjoy your time here.
JW-_-UK@reddit
😂 each to there own, right? I’m unbelievably happy to be out of larger cities. (Although Gent is small)
No-Requirement5208@reddit
Hope you're liking it here so far. If you need any help or recommendations on local stuff, feel free to reach out, I would be happy to help.
JW-_-UK@reddit
Grazie!
Annashida@reddit
Don’t blame you
Hazel1928@reddit
Is that the Flanders in the poem?
Havana-Goodtime@reddit
Yes.
Bubbly-Airport-1737@reddit
The flanders that s too stupid to distinguish a robber from an engineer that speaks 10 languages
Keepforgettinglogin2@reddit
Second this
godspell1@reddit
Thirding it.
thevampirecrow@reddit
i'm dutch and i'm honoured that your time in the netherlands was valuable, regardless about your leaving. good luck in your next country!!!
No_Lemon329@reddit
Says the Dutch person who ignored all expats to go to birthday parties every weekend and spend any other time with college friends ONLY.
thevampirecrow@reddit
i don’t even live in the netherlands anymore bro. and literally almost all of my friends are foreign
Adventurous_Bug13@reddit
the question is are foreign from the country you live or natives to that country?
No_Lemon329@reddit
You have foreign friends because you are the expat now.
thevampirecrow@reddit
i had foreign friends before as well, this isn't a new thing for me. why are you trying to stereotype me for no reason?
No_Lemon329@reddit
You claim to be Dutch.
thevampirecrow@reddit
that is a sweeping generalisation of an entire country
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It’s been great and I will miss the country, I’m sure!
bostanite@reddit
Greek here, living in the Netherlands. You copy-pasted my (and my wife's) mindset. We are not returning for now unfortunately, primarily for our young kids. But I feel you. I wish you all the best back home!
Extreme-Citron418@reddit
Λέγε πατριώτη.
PTSDeedee@reddit
Hijacking this comment to suggest vitamin D deficiency for why you felt lethargic. Anyone who has winters with much shorter days should have their vitamin D levels checked.
let-it-rain-sunshine@reddit
Good insights here. Thanks for peeling back the onion, so to speak and may you have a full life again in Italy. Weather and landscape alone would be worth the move back.
just_bobabout71881@reddit
Fourthing it. I’m originally from Yorkshire in England and I live in Flanders. It’s so flat, over crowded and expensive and I miss the beautiful landscape and how spacious it feels compared to Flanders which is just over populated and claustrophobic
Designer-Tea2092@reddit
Ti capisco.
echoes-of-emotion@reddit
Excellent summary of my experience being back in NL.
I was born here, but moved to Canada at 21 and lived in California 8 years before returning to NL for family reasons (spend some time with aging parents).
I hard ever felt depressed in Canada or USA, but in NL it has been a constant battle.
The lack of nature and sun just have a huge impact, even for a person who has been part of generations of Dutch.
I’m trying to figure out if I should move back to Canada or get a van and do van-life for fall/winter months in southern EU.
If the car insurance and purchase price wasn’t so high in NL I would do that option, but they are both very pricey compared to Canada/USA. So TBD.
No idea how the Dutch keep their mental health in the positive.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
Regarding their mental health, they don’t keep it so positive. I have an insane amount of friends who gave burnout, anxiety or depression. Way more than any other country I’ve lived in (US / Mexico). The statistics on mental health issues in the Netherlands is wild.
geheimeschildpad@reddit
Is this because it’s more common or more accepted to be burnt out here? I’d never heard of it happening when I was in the U.K., I’d even go as far as to say that it would have a detrimental effect on your career if you were to admit to it
Capt-Quark@reddit
Exactly. It's more a cultural thing than anything else. Our mental health is fine. It's just easier to get diagnosed because of several reasons
echoes-of-emotion@reddit
I’m not surprised to hear it!
Apprehensive-Tip3828@reddit
This probably explains why Dutchies fucking love traveling
terenceill@reddit
The taste of their food and the beauty of their women made the dutches great travellers....
Deep-Pension-1841@reddit
You’re mixing them up with the Brits. The average Dutch woman is very attractive
Apprehensive-Tip3828@reddit
They’re better looking than the average British woman for sureeee
terenceill@reddit
Yeah like a stone or a pebble
CatMinous@reddit
We don’t, much of the time.
Hairy-Stringl@reddit
Mental health services are overloaded here. I just have been put on a waiting list for the fastest in my area and it's 3 whole ass months. Some institutions have a full on client stop.
Livid_Painting2285@reddit
Could you buy a van in a different European country and insure it there? Not sure if it's possible but just a thought.
echoes-of-emotion@reddit
Actually a good idea. I’ll look into it and see if that is possible.
Apprehensive_Town199@reddit
If you're a resident in the Netherlands, you're not allowed to drive a car with a foreign plate inside the Netherlands, even if it's not yours.
echoes-of-emotion@reddit
I just looked it up at RDW and you are correct. :( So this is not an option sadly.
reddit_tat@reddit
I think people do this in France. Seasonally. Buy a cheap van, do your thing, sell it. But gas is so expensive. I wonder if there isn’t a cheaper way to do a one month rental.
sherpes@reddit
there are several communities in the Marche region of italy that have hundreds of Dutch retirees. They said that darkness and flatness where reasons they moved to southern Europe.
Desperate-Tart-7572@reddit
Love cozy season in the Netherlands and Dutch urban planning. But to each their own. Also sounds like you're exiting your travel-work-eat-dinky-phase and entering the family-settle down-phase. Makes sense to go back to your family and old friends then, good choice. I wish you all the best.
Enzian_Blue@reddit
Where will you move to in Italy? We are Dutch citizens living in Switzerland now but planning to move to Italy. I agree with everything you say!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
To the North!
Enzian_Blue@reddit
Us too. Good luck and arriverderci maybe.
Fine_Revolution2@reddit
This is how I feel in the Netherlands...and I'm Dutch... so I think these are pretty good reasons.
Mysterious-Ad-7179@reddit
Why does it feel like every person in this comment section has a vitamin D deficiency?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Because we live in a country with not too much sun, and Vitamin D supplements only go so far!
Mysterious-Ad-7179@reddit
I think people really underestimate how big the deficiency is and how much you gotta intake to offset that. We get like zero sun 75% of the year, even Dutch people underestimate the effect I think.
Olga2757@reddit
Wow!! It sounds like the perfect plan :))) remote working and living in Italy !!! congratulations!!! enjoy!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
ThatVoodooThatIDo@reddit
Winter weather in northern Italy was dreadful for me. Persistent fog and persistent 70-car pileups on the autostrada due to the fog. It was a nightmare. Lived there 4 years and couldn’t wait to leave. Now, Naples was a different vibe altogether
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I love the random fog!
Saravr87@reddit
I would never come back to Italy especially now, we are all getting poorer and poorer and there are no services. The Netherlands is a paradise compared to Italy. Good luck but Im afraid you will regret the decision as soon as you deal with italian problems again.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Let's hope everything goes well. But keep in mind, young Dutch people move abroad to be able to buy a house. It's not like everything is perfect here either ;) I think Dutch people are too optimistic about NL, and Italians too pessimistic about Italy.
Artistic_Cold2396@reddit
American living in Amsterdam. I could not agree with you more. That’s why my husband and I are moving back to the States next year. I’ve had a wonderful time here but I can’t wait to go back to a place that truly feels like home. Best of luck to you ☺️
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
God luck to you! We considered the US as well. We could have done it, but decided against it.
psyQologist@reddit
Had a similar experience, although we only lived there for 4 years. We moved there from South Africa, and while it was easy to adapt initially The Netherlands is not a place that excites and inspires in the long terms. We moved to Portugal 5 years ago, and being of Portuguese descent I'm so much happier in a Latin culture where people are warmer, social life is more spontaneous and simple pleasures (a good meal, good coffee) don't cost exorbitant amounts of money.
Sure the salaries are way lower, bureaucracy can be tricky to navigate in Portuguese and housing prices have become a nightmare, but daily life is just so much more pleasant on many levels.
In the end, you sound like you know what your priorities are like in life and if anything I bet you'll have developed a deeper sense of gratitude for the great opportunities The Netherlands offered you as well as the charms of your beautiful homeland.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I have a friend who's from SA like you. He decided to move back to SA!
bit-bybyte@reddit
OP got me with ‘constant low battery feeling’ part. This post resonates so well with how many expats are feeling. This gave voice to many emotions I have after being here for 11 years as well. Thanks OP
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
You're welcome!
Life-Inspector-5271@reddit
Dutch expat who has been living for over 15 years outside of the Netherlands (goodbye AOW). Recently welcomed a daughter and we have been discussing to go back ever since we found out we would welcome a child. But when we look at our income and the taxes, it will cost us at least 20% of our net income. Rent - if we are even accepted with foreign income - would be double what we pay now. We don't even dare to think about buying from day one because we are self-employed. Right now, if public health hospitals don't have time for treatment, there are dozens of private hospitals where we can go tomorrow for a small fee. Still, for our daughter, we might go back. But out host countries have not failed us (yet).
SnooOnions8088@reddit
I love living here, but I totally get it: It’s Europe’s ugliest country (nature wise) with the worst food and the worst weather. If you are not vibing with the people or love architecture it’s just not worth it.
Otherwise_Seat_2950@reddit
What you achieved is hard.
gavskitchen@reddit
I left NL as well after a 5 year plan became 30 years. Sometimes change is good.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
30 years and you still left??? Guess one doesn’t really get used and accept it he.. been here for 16
ComprehensiveAd1855@reddit
Wow, this thread confirms what I've been thinking. Foreigners come to this country, taking up our housing, cluttering our medical system, but have very negative feelings about the country and actually want to move out.
Why don't you just go away?
It's ok if people want ot be here and want to build a future here. You're all welcome.
But having negative people who just complain about how this country is draining them makes me think we should be much tougher on immigrants to weed out the ones who don't really want to be here.
I don't care if you're a super skilled expat or that you can't even read. If you don't want to be here, PLEASE stop complaining about your suffering, and give up your seat already.
Aelonius@reddit
Stop being toxic.
They spent years here contributing to that society and found that they missed something that we do not have. It is ironic that you whine about people being negative yet the first thing you do is toxicly negative and accuse people.
Verbalising the things that OP mentioned is needed as we (the Dutch) have changed in the last decade. And not for the better. Stop immediately going on the attack.
(En eerlijk? Dit soort gedrag is exact waarom we steeds harder en intoleranter worden, en waardoor rechtsextremisme meer aanwezigheid heeft. Doe gewoon normaal)
GeneralWest9305@reddit
Im Portuguese and im living in netherlands from 2 years, i feel exacly the same thing. Im planning to come back to Portugal
ComprehensiveAd1855@reddit
I still see you
smooshyfayshh@reddit
Same but American and been here for nearly 5 years. My husband and I are planning to move soon.
CatMinous@reddit
To the US?
smooshyfayshh@reddit
Most likely Denmark (if I can get a visa), which I’m guessing will be fairly similar to NL 🫠 but my husband is Danish and has family and friends there so I’m hopeful it will be better for us as opposed to NL where we are isolated.
CatMinous@reddit
Oh, ok. Hope Denmark is better than here. I always hear the Scandinavian countries are so much like the Netherlands. Including the sad weather….can’t you go to Italy or somewhere else jolly?
smooshyfayshh@reddit
Yes, I’ve heard the same and I’m sure we’ll encounter similar issues in DK. But we have a toddler and the fact is we need a community, we need a village. And my husband says we can visit my mom in the southern US for the worst winter months (Jan-March) so I think that will alleviate the winter depression.
CatMinous@reddit
Well, that should help tremendously. Good luck!
smooshyfayshh@reddit
Thank you!!
CarInteresting3107@reddit
Me too. And i feel like life here is really draining. My job was a lot more stressful back home,but I feel way worse here. Constant struggle with the sun
CatMinous@reddit
True, that
terenceill@reddit
What sun?
CarInteresting3107@reddit
Lack of it
echoes-of-emotion@reddit
Take me with you 🙏😂
BD_Lightsaber@reddit
Ok bye 👋🏻
ComprehensiveAd1855@reddit
k bye
thaisdearauj@reddit
Omg, you just described what I feel living in Vancouver
elaine4queen@reddit
I didn’t change countries but made a move within the UK. I felt really trapped by Brexit but for very similar reasons OP has I moved out of London after 30 years to Brighton. Not a great distance but I feel more local here, I walk on the Downs and the beaches and it’s been much better for my health in general being somewhere closer to nature even if it’s still a city (population here is about equivalent to Islington).
mazembe_kidiaba@reddit
Yup, second most of what you said, made me go back to Brazil after 5 years in NL.
To me the taxes were the main factor. Once I managed to secure more or less the same income working from Brazil, living in NL stopped making sense.
The country is great, but not enough to justify the cost of living and weather.
I hope to come back as a tourist someday, the country is beautiful!
mermoz30@reddit
As a center-european living in Spain, on the Mediterranean coast, I don't understand how you could have lived in Holland for 11 years.
I work for a Dutch company, and I'm actually there right now. I go there quite often, and as much as Amsterdam is an absolutely beautiful city, the country is utterly depressing.
But THE problem is the weather. It's literally mordor for six months of the year, and not always great the rest of the time.
Another thing I dislike is the rejection of hierarchy in the business world, which can cause certain problems. Also, their tendency to keep bad and unproductive employees in their jobs.
Apart from that, Holland is a prosperous society, and the Dutch are quite friendly despite their reputation, but I think you have to be born here to be able to stay.
Impressive_Door_6405@reddit
Bye
Historical-Visual-52@reddit
Same feelings and thoughts as my wife and I, we also moved to Italy after 5 years in the Netherlands.
About the health care, they are budget-driven, that’s the reason, but we’ve never had a problem. I think we got lucky with our GP and learnt how to play their game to get what we needed. Although, it was indeed an extra effort comparing to back in Brazil.
iPhoenixEU@reddit
Yeah i hate that there is no mountains
Adventurous_Bug13@reddit
well, the country's name suggested that in 1st place
RazendeR@reddit
We have Mount Flagstaff, its the highest point of the kingdom at +370m...
Roodditor@reddit
That’s why us Dutchies go to the south during our holidays 😋 Well, that and the sunshine.
Illustrious_Sky5329@reddit
What is the point of this rant? Just go then. Shame took you 11 freaking years to realise it. But not my problem
VisitFragrant@reddit
this is the reason I left - rudeness
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
Yet you replied
Difficult_Pop8262@reddit
I moved from the Netherlands to Italy 2.5 years and I feel like life is worth living again.
I feel I spent almost a decade being a husk of myself.
I love Italy. What an authentic, real, human place, with the good and the bad.
LesnBOS@reddit
Are you Italian? What is Italy like now under neo fascism? We are considering moving there from the states in a few years.
Difficult_Pop8262@reddit
It's awesome. Mommy Meloni continues to entertain us with her drug-fueled antics, we are rounding up the immigrants and sending them back to Africa (that's Italy South of Rome) and we are vibing hard with Japan and Austria.
I can't wait to switch sides back again.
LesnBOS@reddit
wait drug fueled? I haven't heard that! and when you say switch back, do you mean they will vote in the opposite party and get rid of neofascism you think?
Difficult_Pop8262@reddit
I mean back to the Axis
Even-Job3794@reddit
Funny, almost for all the reasons you have mentioned above I love living in the Netherlands. Well, the grocery stores offer an incredibly low variety of good products (in terms of not being ultra-processed foods) and the "nature" is rather artificial. But besides that we like the gezelligheid here while not being too close with the people. Compared to my home country Germany this is already a big step forward 😅 But I do appreciate you're open words and as you can see many Dutchies and expats in the Netherlands can relate to what you were writing. Someone in the comments mentioned that he or she was from Utrecht. It happens to be that we moved to Utrecht two years ago and still every time I pass the Utrechtse domtoren on my bike in the dark cold hours of the day I feel so happy to be here. Where do you live in the Netherlands?
Jskhan92@reddit
The warmth you were looking Dutch people lack of that .
Moist-Ninja-6338@reddit
You could have easily replaced the word Netherlands with Canada. Exact same situation. I think your sentence “it is no longer the right country for who we have become” sums it up best. Most people in the world do not experience this level of change and enlightenment unfortunately.
gbrlshr@reddit
Funny, I'm Canadian living in the Netherlands and I feel exactly the way OP does. I plan to move home in ~a year. Life in Canada feels so much warmer (socially) and more open than here, amongst other things.
Ava2969ny@reddit
70% of the people in this world do not experience this level of change and enlightenment because they following a certain path that was expected of them, or they are uncomfortable with major changes so there's a gradual resignation or a giving in to fear that takes over; so even when a city, a career choice no longer aligns with who they've become, they remain. It has a lot to do with the "sunk-cost" fallacy; they can't muster up the courage to start over when things aren't going well, so they stay the course.
mynameisnotearlits@reddit
W we're do you get this number?
Ava2969ny@reddit
It's completely hypothetical; I'm just going on the assumption that some people prefer to lean into complacency instead of trying to get of a situation that's not working. Sometimes it's money or family circumstances that keeps in a bad situations.
Mountain_9574@reddit
EXACTLY
URSIE444@reddit
At least Canada has beautiful landscapes.
Inductiekookplaat@reddit
True, but Canada is huge. We have more diverse landscapes on a shorter driving distance. Ofcourse outside of The Netherlands.
Maleficent-Can3298@reddit
As someone who lives in Canada, I agree with you 100%
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Everything is temporary
Druzhnik_LP@reddit
Very well put! Fully understand your reasoning and I wish you and your family all the best in Italy!
I’ve experienced racism here in NL all my life (37 now) despite being born here and having a Dutch father. The issue is: my mother is Polish and therefore apparently it’s fine to be racist towards me. Additionally, the amount of times I’ve had a person tell me “your Dutch is so good!” is just baffling. What helped me in the end is to start working for a global company.
Enjoy the return back to a warmer climate and I hope your batteries will be refilled soon!
Fabian_Riven@reddit
Physiotherapist here. Totally agree, the huisarts get all the pressure from the healthcare often misdiagnosing things or sending people to wrong places. Many times I send patients back to the huisarts cause I think they are at the wrong healthcare provider (we are a relatively cheap and easy solution). The consequences are that people get sent to the wrong places or get help too late. Not only does this increase healthcare costs it is terrible for the patient to live 2+ years with undiagnosed complaints.
CynicalAlgorithm@reddit
Do I understand correctly that you can't write a referral directly to the healthcare provider you think that patient needs? As in, if the huisarts sends the patient to you and you judge that the patient actually needs a podiatrist, you can't send that patient directly to the podiatrist? They must go back to the huisarts first?
Fabian_Riven@reddit
Yes, exactly. The huisarts decides if my patiënt can get a MRI or CT-scan. It's anoying for the patiënt, the huisarts and for me and also brings extra healthcare costs. So this is how it goes: Someone tears his ACL and the huisarts doesn't do the right diagnosis and takes the easy route: go to the fysio. I say you need a MRI cause I think the ligament is damaged. He goes to the huisarts and asks for a MRI.
CynicalAlgorithm@reddit
Oof. What would it take to change this aspect of the system?
Stuffthatpig@reddit
I question how good some of the huisarts are. I told them what my doctor sister thought my daughter had and he didn't even bother googling it to see. Gave the standard paracetamol and come back in a week answer. Did that and lo and behold it was exactly what I asked if it was.
We called him Dr. Know Nothing. My primary huisarts was awesome.
Actual_Homework_7163@reddit
About 20 years ago i broke my arm my mom had to drag me to 4 different huisartsen before one suggested to take x rays. My doubts started then about the knowledge of some of the huisartsen. I since moved to finland and in retrospect the dutch healthcare system is broken and it has been for a long time and no one is gonna go fix it.
PowerfulIron7117@reddit
You’re allowed to insist on more and get a second opinion, you know, especially when you have good reason to think there’s a real issue.
LannisterTarth@reddit
There is no pressure from anyone, all huisartsen make their own decisions
Etikoza@reddit
No they usually read the same website on the internet and just repeat what is said on there.
Opening_Traffic123@reddit
Is it easy to return to Italy? We also consider Moving but like to keep our jobs here.
zampyx@reddit
I've been in Belgium and now the UK, not really liking either. Just good money and opportunities but I already know I'll leave eventually, more or less for the same reasons you mentioned. In the end Italy is amazing if you've got money.
Extreme-Citron418@reddit
I feel exactly what you are writing. I'm from Greece and I love and miss the mountains and the unpredictable nature. Here in NL it's so flat it's kind of more depressing along with the weather...
Responsible_Court627@reddit
Nice
Vovochik43@reddit
I agree with these observations and retrospectively the only thing that allowed me to stay that long in the Netherlands is that I had a flexible role that permitted me to work abroad for 3 months from Korea in winter. Then I could do all the necessary health checks and shopping so I didn't need to spend much money in NL.
Now I also moved on particularly due to box3 tax change coming soon.
Annual-Psychology-13@reddit
Yes, Dutch mentality on healthcare is pretty much "things will sort themselves out". Its part of our culture, also making our healthsystem relatively affordable. About making friends, that indeed can be hard but my experience is that when you become part of a community (Football club, cycling club but even more so church, mosque for my part) it really helps doing life together. Anyways, good luck on your journey!
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
That’s something what was bugging me, everything needs to be a club / organized. Meeting people out of this setup is nearly impossible
MCimenti@reddit
Totally understand! Feeling the same way
MCimenti@reddit
Totally understand this! Similar conversations I’m having with my wife, she’s increasingly questioning why we are in NL. I’m Italian and have lived abroad for half of my life, most of which in NL, and some time spent in the UK. Having grown into a family, we see now more than ever before challenges for decent socialisation and there is also a gap with the locals that it is difficult to overcome in full. Healthcare system is a sometimes turning to be disastrous, I’ve already heard many times about acquaintances or friends having to go back to own counties to be treated, while the Dutch hospital would not even be able to understand the seriousness of the complaint upfront, until one ends up in ER. We have two kids now, born in Amsterdam, and we are also starting to question the educational system, we don’t see that the school does have a method that supports learning the way we would expect. Amsterdam can still offer some decent cultural entertainment and job opportunities, but what you have listed is all missing indeed and we really feel the same, but the challenge is to find a plan that would work for us, as we are of different nationality and not necessarily going back where our families live would make full sense. Personal consideration is that sometime, as expat in NL, I feel my life grew into a dystopia, being a byproduct of the Erasmus culture and the economic drivers of the EU. Anyhow… again, you’ve laid out all the points and many expats do suffer the same… All the best for your future ahead!
Smart_Decision_1496@reddit
I’m not Italian but I fully understand you! Enjoy the return to the bel paese! 🤞
PeasantFox@reddit
Sounds like NL help you grow and, to use a dutch euphemism, you outgrew it’s kiddy bike wheels.
Wish you all the best in life wherever it takes the two of you!
Twnc@reddit
I don’t live in NL but reading your story resonates so much with how I am feeling at the moment. I wish you success in your move and hope you find what you’re looking for. Your post is an inspiration.
Entire-Radio1931@reddit
”Long winters…” bitch please
Street-Paper2181@reddit
As an American who recently moved to the Netherlands (and may move to France next year), l only feel extreme relief to be out of a country in the midst of a fascist takeover. Everything isn’t perfect here, but it is infinitely better than living in a country where I worried—every school day for a decade—that my kid wouldn’t come home from school.
Quirky_Magician9188@reddit
This post was about why someone was leaving the Netherlands, only a matter of time before some Amercan had to jump in and mention their "fascist takeover" 😒
ThatVoodooThatIDo@reddit
Ahem, he/she also stated how they appreciate the Netherlands. Stop pouncing, FFS
simple_explorer1@reddit
yeah, americans just do this on every topic
Mysterious_Benefit_7@reddit
We have lived in Canada for the last 12 years, and have almost the exact same feeling. We’re planning on moving back to Europe as soon as it makes sense for our kids. We’re incredibly grateful to Canada. We’ve grown into different people, and Canada is missing too much of what we need in the next chapter of our lives.
Ava2969ny@reddit
What's missing in Canada from your experience after having lived there for several years? I think about moving to Canada, but I've heard such widely varied experiences that I don't know if I should even pursue it.
Mysterious_Benefit_7@reddit
In no particular order (and from a Calgary perspective):
There are lots of great things too. But those were some of the random downsides.
Ava2969ny@reddit
TBH some of the reasons you listed are exactly why other, more liberal countries are suffering in various areas. You listed alcohol and wine being heavily regulated and expensive; but if you look at as a negative, yeah..that sucks. The other perspective is to see it as a positive and very much like how the UAE controls access to alcohol. Specifically because alcohol is regulated, not just anyone can purchase it and public intoxication happens to be illegal, that provides a certain safety and health precaution that doesn't exist in other countries. Openness often comes with other issues than can get out of control; for example, school shootings happen so often in the U.S. that all schools must have lockdown drills to show kids how to survive if someone enters the building with a firearm. Can you imagine the anxiety that some sensitive children experience just being students in a country like the U.S. where "the right to bear arms," means that almost anyone can have access to a firearm? Freeness can come at a huge cost. Just something to think about.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Good luck to you!
Current_Ad3148@reddit
Good luck to you. This is why for me, having lived in Europe for over 25 years I haven’t let go of my countries passport even with the hassle of having to renew it - the medical treatment is better and cheaper. I have take trips home for dental work and yes even surgery because I was not going to wait and wait and wait out here. Grateful we have the chance to even do this.
insite986@reddit
I have been an expat all over the world. Coming home (US) was always amazing…until I had to leave Italy. That place is really special. You are right that the bureaucracy is maddening & the government is in the way of everything, but oh my, what a place! I feel more alive there than anyplace I’ve been. I wish you well.
NoPanda2218@reddit
Man you guys would have a blast living in the United States...
exponentialG@reddit
I also left NL. I am now in the USA, and everybody is fake. Some are a-holes, but that’s true everywhere. Good luck in your journey and I wish you well in finding more energy
waikato_wizard@reddit
Im a kiwi, born and raised. The netherlands was the one place that I felt like I belonged. The culture, the people, the sights and sounds made sense to me in a way I havent found anywhere else. (Honestly makes me wonder if it is nature vs nurture, my parents were Dutch immigrants but raised us very kiwi).
I'd move there in a heartbeat if I could. New zealand has a place in my heart for sure, and my gf has deeper ties here than I do, but that feeling just hasn't left me since I got on the plane back here.
fran_wilkinson@reddit
UK is the same, for italians is tough
bilbul168@reddit
Its the weather that ultimately effects the culture. I had the same for england. On paperbyou can have all the money and jobs and hobbies. But if all you see is indoor and the people are kind of cold and you are surrounded by flat lands with going 2 months without sun and 3 weeks of summer a year, it will drain your soul
IndependentOil8397@reddit
Wow, I am currently still living in the Netherlands ( planning on leaving but not sure yet where to move to) and this resonates so much with me! Especially the part about nature and the dark winters. So happy for you that you had the flexibility to move somewhere where the environment brings you more joy. Wish you all the best!
Master-Manager@reddit
I hato see AI posts like this, try and use your own brain and ideas
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
They are, but writing them down clearly has always been an issue for my autistic brain.
Master-Manager@reddit
Capisco, comunque ho appena letto il tuo nome ed è bellissimo
Mediocre-Site-6398@reddit
I am French and have been here for nearly 18 years. Had great jobs, my ow business,learnt the language, bought and sold my first house and made a good profit, met great people...if I didn't marry my Dutch husband last year I would have gone back home too. In the last few years, I noticed all the points you eloquently put. I would add a big point which is that racism has become more rampant (I know we have LePen and RN and co as well in France), and straight to your face. Back in the day it was a few ignorant people in villages, now it's worse in big cities. I wish you a wonderful life back in Italy!
colornap@reddit
Which part of France are you from? Maybe it's because I left France many years ago, or most likely it's because I'm from the north (Picardie/Normandie), but is the weather all that different?
Mediocre-Site-6398@reddit
Yes I am from Marseille! The weather bothers me the least, ok it's not great but I nearly got used to it. Some years we had very hot summers, felt like home!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you and good luck to you!
just_bobabout71881@reddit
I feel like this too. After 7 years in Belgium (originally from the U.K.) it doesn’t feel like home and never will. Granted I earn a lot more here and that’s the only reason I stayed, but when I visit the uk I feel like I belong there and it gets harder everytime to come back to Belgium.
I’m missing out on the lives of people I love so much and have never been able to replicate those relationships here. Belgians are cold and unfriendly and inhospitable.
Union_Biker@reddit
Enjoy Italy and try to remember the wonderful things about the Netherlands.
hudibrastic@reddit
Your story is similar to mine, and many other expats
I left the Netherlands after 10 long years, I used to call the Netherlands an energy vampire, I was often feeling the same, fatigued of trying to build a life there with very low success
I missed the warmth, the friendliness, the spontaneity… and even with a good salary the cost was simply too high to ever dream on building wealth (which, as many it was my goal when I left my home country)
When I finally managed to leave it was an instant relief, I moved to the UK, and even tho the UK has its own problems it is way more friendly and warm
I hate when people complain about the salaries x CoL in the Netherlands and someone reply saying that money is not everything in life… sure it is not, a vibrant sense of community, a close friends groups, a warm and welcoming society is higher priority for many people, but the Netherlands also doesn't offer it
simple_explorer1@reddit
Comeon, London and england is not a "warm and friendly" place. Most english people are polite (much more so than the Dutch directness) but not friendly. You seem to have rose tinted glass
hudibrastic@reddit
Man, a door with a hat is warmer than Dutch people
simple_explorer1@reddit
looks like you haven't met Germans, polish and french then ;)
But i still disagree, I have made life long Dutch friends in NL but doing the same in UK is very challenging
colornap@reddit
This might be because you're in a different stage of life or something. I find that the british people are very easy to talk to and to befriend (as a frenchie). Everyone agrees the weather is crap tho, and I'm leaving soon in part for that haha.
allstar_mp3@reddit
polish people are warm, just not to complete strangers. way more than the dutch
storm_borm@reddit
As a Brit living in NL, I am depressed every time I go back there to see family. Everything is run down and needs investment. In NL I can see where my taxes go, things work better. Plus the cost of living in the UK has pretty much caught up with the Netherlands. The only thing I miss is the countryside
am-bro-sia@reddit
Most of your close connections are expats, the older you grow, the lonelier you get. Expats leave, people do what they gotta do.
For the winters, this year we haven’t had one yet. You probably feel the pinch of Vitamin D deficiency with lower energy levels etc.
Would be curious to find out your experience in a year or two after moving. Italy does offer better weather, better food and family for you. You probably have enough saved and you aren’t far from the NL.
Amesenator@reddit
As someone who grew up in the Pacific Northwest, which has a similar climate and lack of light from autumn to spring, I suspect you may be suffering from "SAD" (sunlight affective disorder). I love the long days from May through August. When we get to September, I start to feel a sense of impending anxiety because I know 'the big dark' is coming. We're now thick in the middle of it (the sun set yesterday at 4:18 and even during the day, the heavy overcast skies can make it feel like it's dusk). I get why you say you don't feel quite well. Hoping your move back to Italy will better agree with your biorhythms!
NLmovement@reddit
Ciao tutti
paulx39@reddit
I hear you. Healthcare is just terrible in the NL, and worse: they do not want to hear how bad it is and how to improve it. Italy not perfect but it seems you have done a carefully meditated decision so kudos to you and best of luck!
0singularity9@reddit
The last paragraph was little poetic and the ending with the existential question was nice. Well written and all the best.
Number-2932@reddit
So, in short: the Netherlands was too hard, too expensive, too emotionally demanding for you Italians because you needed your mommy to cook you dinner. You were given 11 years in a functional, first-world society, and your southern European biology rejected it like a bad organ transplant.
I guess some categories of being just aren't built for progress, then.
LiterallyTestudo@reddit
Cope harder
Number-2932@reddit
Projection is a powerful thing.
DepthEnvironmental56@reddit
Ching chong ching pling pling?
Ertceps_3267@reddit
Define progress, because I ain't seeing it from your comment
Number-2932@reddit
Progress is the opposite of Italy.
Ertceps_3267@reddit
Any background for this hate or are you just trolling?
napoletano_di_napoli@reddit
He probably had a bad experience with Italians or Italy in general and he's been seething ever since.
Number-2932@reddit
Yes. It's called "experiencing Italians."
Ertceps_3267@reddit
Don't seethe just because your wife left you for an italian, Hans, c'mon
Number-2932@reddit
Is that really the only thing you people think you have to offer the world?
Ertceps_3267@reddit
Love is better than drug tourism and colonialism after all
Number-2932@reddit
Love doesn't pay the bills.
Also, your Italian "love" has one of the highest femicide rates in Western Europe. But sure, it's better than colonialism.
Ertceps_3267@reddit
Oh yeah bringing up femicide rate while you are on the same boat, you ratio is 2.3/million people, our is 2.4. Are we racing for which country kills the most?
Also I prefer to be broke but have some friends than being rich, alone and killing myself at 30 after not seeing the sun for the 18th year in a row
Number-2932@reddit
The difference is, a rich, "lonely" Dutchman can choose to fly to your sunny, broke country for a weekend. You, a poor Italian with "friends," can't afford to leave.
The Italian sun must look beautiful when you Italians have no future.
Ertceps_3267@reddit
Yeah with your personality you surely will have a great time here lol. People won't spit in your dish the moment they'll see how racist and entitled you are
Number-2932@reddit
And that, right there, is why I bring my own food.
Ertceps_3267@reddit
Butter, potatoes, potato butter, truffles and other potatoes? What a pity, you could eat very well but you chose to be a racist fuck
Number-2932@reddit
The background is reality.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
God, the hurt is big with this one
Number-2932@reddit
The same way your eyes "hurt" when you stare at something ugly for too long.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
Cmon dude. Big bad OP mentioned something negative about my country, so he’s ugly. Really? A bit of a groep 5 basisschool vibe .
Number-2932@reddit
Well, when in Rome, do as the barbarians do.
Upstairs-Interest-57@reddit
CHING CHONG CHANG I AM VIETNAMESE CHING CHONG CHANG CHUNG
Number-2932@reddit
Case in point.
Neocentrist1337@reddit
I mean, if you're gonna look down on him for his heritage at least try not being an immigrant from a 3rd world country yourself. Stones from glass houses and all of that...
Number-2932@reddit
Oh yes. We both came from shtholes. I was just smart enough to realize it.
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
What a horrible comment from an ignorant type. You would be surprised to know how many locals agree with OP
Number-2932@reddit
The Dutch are polite, not stupid.
Maestro_gintonico@reddit
But you are incredibile retard. Why ?
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
The Dutch only think that they are polite. They are usually very rude and lack manners.
Number-2932@reddit
Yes. We are rude. Being direct saves time.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes!
ComprehensiveSurgery@reddit
No no the Dutch pride themselves on being direct and even use it as an excuse to be rude. Except if someone shares their opinion and it’s not in line with their worldview then they get all butt hurt.
OP I liked your balanced post about your life in Netherlands. Thanks for sharing .
Number-2932@reddit
My dear, to be hurt by an opinion, one must first respect the person giving it.
ComprehensiveSurgery@reddit
And considering that your approach to OPs post was to insult him and southern European people just shows how worthy of respect you and your opinions are.
Number-2932@reddit
You're still under the delusion that I consider you someone who respect is worth earning. I don't.
ComprehensiveSurgery@reddit
Likewise. Not here to listen to your bullshit opinions. So if you can’t be constructive, kindly fuck off.
Number-2932@reddit
See? Finally you're learning to be direct. There's hope for you yet.
Longjumping-Door6935@reddit
Totally agree, they’re just assholes tbh. The ‘we are just direct’ is a bullshit excuse. Germans are also direct but less inclined to be complete assholes I found.
Number-2932@reddit
Yes. One is direct. The other is honest.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
laughs in cancer rates
Number-2932@reddit
So we agree.
pongauer@reddit
Kan jij ook niet lekker opdonderen?
Zeikstengel
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
De meeste Nederlanders zijn lieve mensen. Soms heb je helaas ook randdebielen zoals Number-2932
Number-2932@reddit
Schattig. Blijf oefenen.
Number-2932@reddit
Verfrissend. Eindelijk een directe, eerlijke Nederlandse haat in plaats van al dat passief-agressieve Italiaanse gejank.
Roodditor@reddit
While you are right that people from Mediterranean cultures often struggle in north-western Europe due to cultural differences and a lack of sunshine, there is no need to be an asshole about it.
Number-2932@reddit
Sometimes the truth is an asshole.
Intelligent_Fun4378@reddit
Dumb people are usually the most confident in their self-proclaimed "biological suppremacy". You are an arrogant piece of shit, and people will regard you as such in real life as well :).
Sensitive-Rush113@reddit
I could actually copy & paste a lot of what you just wrote. Not from Italy, but Poland. The difference is I’m here solo and I feel similar things after two years. Good job, many friends and familiar faces around.
I like the Netherlands and feel at home there, but somehow I feel there’s another place out there that feels even more like “home” and it’s not even my home country . Good luck!
Apprehensive_Day3622@reddit
Did you ever get Vitamin D supplements? A lot of what you describe sounds like fatigue/depression coming from having less sunlight that what you grew up with. Vitamin D supplements and light therapy could probably have helped a bit. Though of course when comparing to the beauty of Italy, every country will look pale in comparison!
aleila79@reddit
I'm Italian too and I have been living in the Netherlands for 14 years. Although I like the Dutch mindset, I share your view, but after so long away from Italy, I somehow feel disconnected from my homeland . Yes, I do miss my roots, my friends that I have been growing up and the rest of my family of course, but when I talk to them, I realise my life has taken a different path that can hardly get back to where I started. It's probably the downside of being an expat, but I personally can't feel anyplace like Home, including my home country.
RepeatAdventurous816@reddit
Same here!! Feel so low energy and almost like im wasting my life 5 years in
Thin-Sock-7288@reddit
Best of luck. We are feeling the same, been living here for 10 years, too. Things are getting worse compared to our expectation and standards. We love Italy though.
Alternative-Alps-710@reddit
After been living for 10 years in NL i am planning to move somewhere where i dont have to sell a kidney to eat out at a reataurant
Square-Parsley-8330@reddit
Its always good to leave comfort zone man. Take care
Impressive-Medium-77@reddit
I’m Dutch and i feel the same.
GrimReaperzZ@reddit
The netherlands isn’t failing?
Yeah i agreed with all except for that part. But you’d know it is, if you lived here your whole life and your parents did too.
Embarrassed-Mix-699@reddit
Not a Dutch person but lived in Netherlands for a while. Maybe I have been lucky but I found the healthcare fantastic. Trying to see a GP was tough in the beginning. But getting specialist care and surgeries etc it was all efficient and done quickly.
Beneficial_Nose1331@reddit
Are you already rich or inherited money? Work and wages in Italy are absolutely terrible.
koniu420@reddit
i feel exactly the same about the netherlands and i cant wait until itll be the right time to move back to the motherland Poland, the lack of mountains and nature variety (me being from Lesser Poland ive never realised how much of a factor this could be) is also really affecting my mood here. Best of luck to you! Im going on my fifth year here and its getting more difficult to come back after every visit home.
xdarkshinex@reddit
A fellow Pole here, also struggling in the Netherlands. Poland has its flaws, but some things we take for granted until we lose them. If you have a loving family in Poland, don't wait until it's too late. For me it's not financially viable to move out of the Netherlands right now but if money wasn't an issue I'd be gone already.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Poland is doing great these day! Dzień dobry
Aggravating_Ring_714@reddit
The Netherlands is in a bad spot. Really bad food, disgusting right wing politics, high cost of living, lack of affordable accommodation, wages are laughable.
Hefty_Worldliness_17@reddit
You're right about everything except it being "right wing". It's literally not.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
Really boring food is something I disagree with.
Yes, Dutch cuisine is very boring. But the quality of food that is available to you there is second to none in the world. I would say Albert Heijn is price-quality ratio wise the best supermarket in the world. You can get incredible Dutch cheeses & bread, the best dried meats from Spain, cheeses from France, mushrooms from Italy, etc. for remarkably low prices. Additionally the access to Asian ingredients for example is also quite good.
Add to that great Suriname food, Moroccan food, Turkish food, Indonesian food, etc. and you can get some great food in the Netherlands. Is it Dutch cuisine? No. But it is food you have access to in the Netherlands.
I live in Mexico and I absolutely miss the food in the Netherlands. I miss the variety and the quality of products.
lovethecomm@reddit
Holy shit come on man. Have you been to a Greek supermarket? Albert Heijn quality is laughable and the vegetables + fruit are tasteless.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
I haven’t been to a Greek restaurant, perhaps it is better. But I find people are biased with their judgements. While certain things are for sure less good than in other countries, when it comes to overall variety Albert Heijn has great availability price to quality ratio wise. If you think the fruits & vegetables suck (which I can agree with for a lot of fruits) then buy local fruits and not imported fruits. The blueberries in nl are insane.
hotpatat@reddit
The best dried meats from Spain in AH for remarkably low prices? 🤣🤣🤣 That might be the joke of the year.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
You reckon? I’ve been all over the world and top quality products are unbelievably expensive. Groceries in places like Mexico are way more than in AH, for way lower quality. The Spanish dried meats & chorizos/Salchichas are great quality to price ratio.
I think sometimes people in NL don’t have the perspective of how good it is grocery wise until they leave. All of my Dutch friends complain about the grocery prices - you all have no idea how it is elsewhere.
hotpatat@reddit
Mexico is not the only place in the world now, is it?
Greek supermarkets (an example) have better quality of vegetables and meat than AH here for lower price.
Spanish supermarkets are on another level of quality as well. I bought iberico ham in Madrid for less than what you buy the no name chorizo here in AH.
This is not even scratching the surface of going to the open markets in other countries, the variety is astounding.
If you are cooking, you should know that example of meat from AH. Tastes bad and is full of water. Besides potatoes and onions, the vegetables here are also suffering from the same fate of being bland and tasteless.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
Yeah ok I mean Europe in general has extremely high quality when it comes to this, so if you’re from a European country it make be lacking. But compared to almost anywhere else in the world I still think there is a wonderful access to quality products and most things will be pretty high level. I do agree that the meat and chicken is horrible though. I buy that from the slager and not from Albert Heijn. I also pick up plenty of solid products in the farmers market. I dunno for me it’s possible to get great stuff in NL relatively easily and cheap. Yes for some stuff you won’t go to the AH but to other stuff which is fine - easy and fun.
hotpatat@reddit
Most european countries have very high quality of fresh ingredients. NL is exporting most of theirs and we are left over with the scraps.
I'm so grateful that I grew up in a country where good food was accesible everywhere and the fruits were always fragrant and juicy. I can't explain the difference unless someone has experienced the same.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
I have lived in many countries so I know the difference but your decisions are part of the problem.
If you’re buying mangos and pineapples in the Netherlands, yes they absolutely suck. These are being harvested while still unripe and then shipped to the Netherlands.
But if you get blueberries, black berries, etc. these are absolutely fantastic. Get locally produced fruits and they will be very good. The Netherlands produces the most agriculture per capita in the entire world, if you are eating local you can have great produce for a very cheap price. And then other quality stuff from neighbouring countries which is still fresh too.
Produce getting imported from the other side of the world will not be as good and honestly is kind of stupid anyway.
ThinkMoon35@reddit
I see your point. You like to have a broad selection of products from foreign cuisines, both European and exotic countries. It is true that AH has good gyozas for 2.99 and courgette falafel for 1.20 and all the rest. You don’t have that in other supermarkets in Italy, Spain, Greece and Asia since there is so much local variety of local ingredients and vegetables and high demand for those ingredients since they are fresh and high quality and cheaper than imported ones and can be used in countless recipes from the local cuisine.
I respect that however your claim that AH is the “best supermarket in the world price-quality wise” is not consistent with common observation of: - especially fresh vegetables and fruit being not on par with the ones you can find abroad and very standardised. They have 1 or 2 SKU of the VERY SAME products all year round. There is NO seasonality. Same apples, oranges, eggplants courgettes all year round. Meaning everything is from the same suppliers and greenhouses and they are just not that good, too watery and doesn’t cook well in general. The problem here is Dutch people don’t know how to cook stuff like artichokes or green beans so they Wouldn’t sell hence greenhouse courgette all year round. The very SAME variety of courgette, grown ass big dark green monster so consumers can grab 1 and it has a price tag for piece and they shrinkflate the product down to half its size over the next 50 years. - BREAD: Have you ever been in a supermarket where bread is actually fresh baked the same day? and not industrially backed and cut somewhere else and comes with alcohol and other chemicals to extend its shelf life? What price quality are you talking about? And on top of that you can buy pizza and pastries that don’t come from a frozen stamp? - Shrinkflation: stuff has 1.xx price tag but comes in 750g packages. Salad bags are just ridiculous. Misleading price tags. How come the best supermarket in the world make the headlines for controversies on their price raise? Again, what “price quality” are you talking about? - You are clearly valuing the “price quality” of the selection of products from abroad. What about the selection of all the other products? I swear every country I’ve been to other than Scandinavia and UK has a better selection of yogurts, jams, cheese, fish, meat, goddamit even the frozen aisle.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
I hear what you’re saying. I think the problem is that people are going to compare the quality of something in Albert Heijn to the amazing top quality product they have in their own country. So they’ll say the mushrooms aren’t good because they’re better in Italy. Or the French cheese isn’t good because its better in France. Or the Spanish meats aren’t good because they’re better in Spain.
Sure, of course. And of course individual speciality markets or stores will have better individual products too. However as a supermarket as a whole I think the quality of products you are getting for a solid price across a large range/variety of products is very good. For me it is the best supermarket I have experienced for this price to quality wise.
Do other better ones exist? Sure, probably. If so tell me which ones and I’m happy to check them. But I still think Albert heijn is amongst the best and certainly not something that should be looked down upon. Again beyond that you can get your quality products at markets & specialty shops and obviously you will have to accept that some international products aren’t as good as in their respective countries - logically.
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
Shhh don’t make them curious about the good stuff, let them eat what they eat
lucrac200@reddit
Sorry, AH is 100% a Dutch supermarket. "Meh" quality, high prices, absolutely horrible bread. I'll take a Carrefur or a REWE anyday over any of the Dutch supermarkets. The best dried meats from Spain??? 2-3 types of overpriced sausage and 1 type of already sliced jamon? No chorizo except random occasions? Have you ever been in a Spanish supermarket?
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
No shit a Spanish supermarket will have better Spanish products. So will a specialised shop. But the quality of international products you are getting at a very affordable price in the AH is second to none.
I invite you to leave Europe and see what the situation is in ‘cheaper’ countries, or even other rich countries. You will quickly see how great the quality to price ratio is of Dutch supermarkets. Sure other European countries are also solid.
lucrac200@reddit
I've been in about 30 european (most of them) and non european countries.
The Dutch supermarkets are worse in terms of quality and quality/price ratio than the Albanian, Bosnian, Russian, Azerbaijani, Georgian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian, Turkish, Polish, Czech, South Korean, Qatari, Emirates etc. not to mention Spanish, French, Italian or Portuguese supermarkets, in my opinion. I have difficulties thinking of a country from those 30+ I have visited having worse supermarkets. Maybe Azerbaijani ones.
Have you seen the Dutch chicken? Only the Dutch in Europe, the americans and the arabs in Middle East manage to have such a shite quality of chicken. It's cadaveric white, injected with saline and absolutely vile. I have to buy Franse mais kip when I find it at the market. It's a mistery how the Dutch manage to messed it up so bad, it takes a lot of effort.
giantKirano@reddit
I’m Dutch and I completely agree with this
hotpatat@reddit
No point on trying to prove anything to this person. They have travelled all over the world but Dutch supermarkets are second to none in price/quality. What is there else to say.
ThinkMoon35@reddit
AHAHAHAH sorry but Albert Heijn the best supermarket in the world price quality wise? You clearly haven’t been in other supermarkets and countries
SemperEgor@reddit
OP is going back to Italy so i don't think the right wing politics was a dealbreaker lol.
Hefty_Worldliness_17@reddit
As a Dutch person I feel this on every level and you are spot on about everything. I think a lot of Dutchies feel the same way.
One thing that bugs me is that so many people think "free healthcare". First, we're being taxed to death here. Nothing is "free". Second, the problem with socialized healthcare is you just won't get seen. I have had kidney surgery and am prone to uti's. Couple months ago I had a uti so brought in some urine, assistant called me back. Confirmed uti. Said I could get antibiotics at the pharmacy. Then 10 minutes later my gp calls and said he didn't think it was bad enough yet for anitbiotics. Literally had to beg for antibiotics because I was in pretty bad pain, then he told me "fine but if it gets worse or you get a fever it's your problem." Lol.
Good luck on your journey back home. I hope to leave in 2027, but I want out of Europe entirely.
travelking_brand@reddit
My bet is that you lived in the Randstad or Eindhoven area. You mentioned all the reasons we always stayed away from those regions and lived in the east. Here we can take a long walk in nature and not meet anyone. All the best, stay strong.
simple_explorer1@reddit
where else are there jobs in NL except those areas? why wold anyone live in the middle of nowhere "towns" with no jobs? delusional reply
travelking_brand@reddit
By getting up at 4.30 and commuting to where your job is, giving your family a great life style. I have done this for 40 years, and never regretted my choices. Delusional is forcing yourself to live in a poor urban habitat because you crave for that extra hour of sleep.
mrgreenthoughts@reddit
Hows the job market over there?
MaxGaav@reddit
You can get jobs almost everywhere in the NL. But no houses. Really.
mrgreenthoughts@reddit
Is the housing situation that bad in the east?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
In Italy? Mostly bad. We have access to remote jobs.
mrgreenthoughts@reddit
I was asking travelking_brand/u about living in the eastern part of the Netherlands.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We don’t live in the major cities!
Justice010@reddit
Sounds like you guys have had a great time!
Solivigant96@reddit
Dutch, born and bred, and I totally agree with you.
Turbulent-Jury2942@reddit
Gosh this is so recognisable and I am Dutch. The last few years my Russian wife and I have lived all over the place: Ghent, Berlin, New Providence, Lagos Nigeria, Iceland and now we have returned to the Netherlands. The exact same feelings have been haunting us. Making new friends is impossible, work feels draining, free time costs so much and is often not as revitalising as hoped, and don’t even get me started about healthcare. There must be something wrong when my wife prefers just going back to Russia to have her health checks, dental checks etc done. It is cheaper, feels more professional and engaged. I can fully understand moving back and I hope you find what you need.
ScholarProud3656@reddit
We are leaving after 5 years too and for much of the same reasoning as you guys. The disconnection and Healthcare were major issues for us too. This time obsession was also not healthy for us. Good luck to to you guys😊 We're right there with you.
sayonara-hitori@reddit
I am Dutch and still live here. I don’t feel at home in my own country for these exact reasons. It’s a good country, but it’s draining.
Main-Promotion2236@reddit
Thanks so much for this very interesting and nuanced explanation of why you are leaving the Netherlands! Even though I’m Dutch myself, I totally understand where you’re coming from. I particularly recognize that feeling of being ‘drained’ and having little energy.
This time of the year is horrible, these gray days and weeks and months where you don’t see the sun at all are just so depressing…
My mother, who died recently (at the great age of 97) was basically a cheerful person who never complained, who loved her family and who was herself loved by everyone who knew her.
But for the last three years of her life she had been saying ‘I don’t want to go through another winter’. She died in mid-October- just before the start of this awful dark period which begins in late October and then goes on and on through November, December, January, February… until the gloom finally begins to lift at some point in late February or early March.
Anyway… unfortunately leaving for us is not an option. We are elderly, our family is here, we have a house. But if we were younger we’d definitely consider it!
The political and economic climate and infrastructure here certainly don’t help, things seem to be getting worse here in all those respects. I don’t want to get into a big political discussion here, but I’m convinced that one reason for this is that Mark Rutte inflicted an awful lot of damage on our country during his twelve years in power. And we’re still feeling that.
Anyway- I wish you the best of luck and a very good life back in Italy! Enjoy!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you, good luck to you too and sorry for your loss!
Main-Promotion2236@reddit
Thank you for your condolences! 🙏 Yes, my mother was a wonderful, special person, and we still miss her every day.
rshyshni@reddit
I understand you guys, and me and my wife have the same feelings after living 8 years in NL. But I suppose you guys are only two without kids? For is going back to Ukraine is difficult and moving to another country is frustrating because I think about our 11 years old son and his adaptation to a new country…although it could a challenge for all of us.
RengooBot@reddit
I have a question then, would you go back to Italy if you were not able to get "Remote work makes it possible, tax incentives help" and you had to work for an Italian company, with an Italian boss and an Italian salary?
I feel that your post is a little bit disingenuous. While I understand your point of view, I'm from Portugal, it feels like you wouldn't consider moving back without a well-paid remote work.
That means that your biggest driver is money, paired with a lower cost of living, the mountains being close by feel only like an added bonus.
Plenty_Builder_2723@reddit
You shouldn't downgrade how people feel or say they are insincere about what they are saying.
That's how they feel and we're not in them to feel it.
So don't say what you cannot feel yourself.
RengooBot@reddit
First the post was written by ChatGPT, second he admits it in the comments he exchanged with me. Start reading before trying to be a white knight.
giftools@reddit
They want to have the cake and eat it too. Very common of people moving abroad, and then they complain that they didn't want that cake.
RengooBot@reddit
Exactly... It's like they forgot the reasons that drove them away from their original county to begin with.
I wouldn't have any issues with the post if OP was honest and just said "I can work remotely so I will leverage that to live near my family" instead of all the BS about the NL and mountains so that in the end say "oh yeah, I will only do that because I can work remotely".
Where he later admitted that he wouldn't move back if he was going to get an Italian salary.
giftools@reddit
And then add the fact that OP wrote their post with ChatGPT. What percentage of that post is OP's actual feelings, and what percentage has been added by ChatGPT and op left it there because it was just validating their feelings?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Without a well paying remote job it wouldn’t be so easy. Without a well paying remote job in NL it’s also not as easy, but you also don’t have family and landscapes nearby.
RengooBot@reddit
I'm going to assume that, since you are talking about remote jobs and since the easiest job to do remote is IT, you work in IT.
How can you not find well paying jobs in the NL in this field? (That also depends what you consider to be well paid)
But would you still move to Italy without a well paid remote job?
I'm asking this because I've seen this story way too many times with fellow Portuguese: moving back to Portugal because of family and the sun and food and beaches, but then they realised that the Portugal that they left behind years ago is not the same Portugal that they have today, today's even worse. Guess what? They came back (or went to another north-european country), looks like that what they actually valued was living comfortably without having to look into their bank accounts daily and counting every cent.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes, I have a well paying job in NL. I wouldn’t move to Italy without one, or anywhere else for that matter. Let’s say my resume is very good and makes it not a problem to find a high paying job remotely.
RengooBot@reddit
That's good for you!
But don't come say that you are moving for the mountains because if you were going to get an Italian salary you would stay here.
Best of luck!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
In that case I would probably move to Spain instead
Particular-Let4422@reddit
I’m Scottish and living in the Netherlands for 12 years now and I feel the same. Most points you made are correct but some are not Dutch specific, such as cost of living and health care.
I’ve also lived in other countries and it’s a little bit true that the Dutch are a bit more isolated, but don’t forget, we are the foreigners, and even though they speak English very well it’s still a mental drain to speak another language and express themselves. Therefore it’s less appealing for them to invest in such a relationship.
I’m definitely missing the nature and community in Scotland, but my kids are now Dutch so it’s once a year nature trips for me if I’m lucky 😅
lazyghostradio@reddit
It's emotionally draining that every single expat friend I made, even close ones, move away after a few years. My English is at terminally online levels. It's becoming less appealing even to me to be close friends with expats that way too.
Particular-Let4422@reddit
Good point, I didn’t think about the fact that an expat is more likely to leave as well.
lazyghostradio@reddit
I don't think it comes up for most people but you see it in pretty much any country that has expats, it's a language barrier for most and losing friends gets tiring.
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
Funny you mentioned Scotland, which is supposedly colder and has less sun than the Netherlands. I’ve heard it before that Scottish make up for the lack of sun and the nature is great.
Particular-Let4422@reddit
Exactly, it’s colder, darker and wetter but with warm hearts. I definitely enjoy the Dutch weather more.
okan931@reddit
Ciao Bella!
ImpossibleShirt659@reddit
Can I inquire what you mean when you say "wife's fractures"? What happened there?
Plenty_Builder_2723@reddit
As I read this,it felt like I was reading a part of me.
I came to the Netherlands to study and then my children loved it here and I decided to stay.
My spouse still lives in our home country so that he can work and support our expenses because I have not been able to get a job that can conveniently take care of a family of 4. Before coming here, I was going o the hospital less evn though I had a health condition.
Since being here, the doctors always find an excuse not too attend to all my complaints or too slow in responding to emergency about my health and now it got worse and I have to take so much medications which I didn't used to do.
So, the health care is something I am very worried about.
I started a business so that I can make something happen instead of waiting for something to happen about my income, but that still feels like a struggle too.
I see so many expats here struggling with getting a job because they came here with their spouses who got a job, but they haven't been able to find something decent to call an income.
It's exhausting but I am finding solace in the fact that the children are thriving at least, they were able to learn a second language and even a third (for 2 of them).
So, I quite understand how you feel and where you're coming from.
There is this feeling that can't be explained about loneliness and underachieving.
I wish you and your wife a pleasant stay in your new home and all the best to you.
I wish myself the best too and I hope I can navigate how to get around getting a stable source of income here.
It's a beautiful and safe country no doubt, but survival and other aspect of making like worth living(friendliness, cist of living, savings, health care, purchasing power) sometimes feels like a struggle here.
VwapTrader@reddit
This is a lame post, tbh.
Dumping on The Netherlands to avoid coming to terms with personal insecurity is a lame thing to do.
Adventurous-Egg-5911@reddit
You're focused on the downsides OP listed.
Their decision seems more like a conscious choice based on having succeeded in their initial goal and realizing their new, evolved needs.
VwapTrader@reddit
Read the OP's post again.
The mentality of the writing is pathetic narcissism that scapegoats the Netherlands to avoid coming to terms with itself.
My reply above is fair & accurate. The OP made a lame post.
There's no justification crapping all over The Netherlands the way OP did.
Relative-Security602@reddit
The US and particularly my state of New Hampshire has me feeling this way 100 percent. It’s not terrible. It’s truly a great country. But everyday is just battling someone trying to extract money from your pocket, fight about politics, repeat.
Agitated-Zebra-2972@reddit
US here and I couldn't agree more. There's so much beauty and recreation here, I can't complain about that. But the materialistic fake culture, political climate, high cost of living along with shrinking paychecks, polarization and division amongst friends & family (MAGA vs non-MAGA), school safety, worries about the future.... it's all too much and just sucking the life out of me. This used to be an amazing place to live in. It hasn't felt that way for at least 10 years though.
Ava2969ny@reddit
It's incredibly mentally exhausting and depression, especially "someone trying to extract money from your pocket", especially as it relates to healthcare (there's always a hidden cost, a co-insurance, or something else you think you will have to pay for when you step into a doctor's office. Some days I look around and can't believe I've survived this long in the U.S. specifically because of all mental exhaustion, anxiety, depression that often comes with living and working in the U.S.
Front_Pudding_5139@reddit
I lived in NL for 3 years and I can promise you if you think it’s scammy in the US you have no idea. Customer service isn’t a thing, which means every store policy (unless mandated by EU regulation) is as punitive, scammy and extractive as possible. I thought I’d escape the worst parts of late stage capitalism when I moved but wow was it eye opening to live there
Relative-Security602@reddit
I’ve often wondered about that. Europe isn’t what it used to be it seems. But at least there they do seem to go after companies doing shady things (at least tech companies) but it’s true. It’s everywhere. That’s why I say here in New Hampshire of the New England quarter of the US - we have it pretty good. Low crime. Good neighbors. Reasonable economy. Growth. But it’s growing fast and we are losing our Independence which is our “thing” though the pundits say we are living free. Aside from insurance and utilities we are relatively scam free….
No_Pen_376@reddit
this is true, the US is built on taking as much money from as many people as possible. You can live frugally here, but you have to be a warrior of frugality!
vintage_hot_mess@reddit
Only if you don't get sick.
Relative-Security602@reddit
You really can’t because the insurances and utilities you need just to exist are insane and there’s no alternative. I suppose a cabin in the woods is possible….
bespoketranche1@reddit
I drove through New Hampshire once when I was going from Vermont to Maine and I have romanticized it since because of the natural beauty we saw from driving around. Glad to hear it’s just a normal place.
Relative-Security602@reddit
I can’t lie - it is about as close to my ideal as I could envision except for the cold winters and high costs - which I also love - but they are changing with climate change. It’s warming and they aren’t as winter-y, they are more ice and cold. However - It’s gorgeous everywhere you turn. It’s such a beautiful place. Good people, it’s just so sad that the outside world is moving in. And my worldview is probably skewed - normal here is not normal most places. Scotland was very Similar but I felt people seemed happier there. It’s a very sad state of affairs to have something you love change for no reason.
Relative-Security602@reddit
The US and particularly my state of New Hampshire has me feeling this way 100 percent. It’s not terrible. It’s truly a great country. But everyday is just battling someone trying to extract money from your pocket, fight about politics, repeat.
Evening-Caramel-6093@reddit
Very well written. Good luck on the next chapter.
TopTart3@reddit
Many people feel the need to go back home. But the ones who justify it rationally are the ones who face the largest disappointment. I am sure you know that public preventive care isn't accessible anymore in Italy (two years waiting list for breast cancer screening), that if by "one hour away from the mountains" you mean Milano, it's never really an hour.. and that you don't need to find a job in Italy for now, but you may need to do that one day
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We’ll see; if doesn’t work out we’ll move again
TopTart3@reddit
Of course, and I hope it works for you. But it's not working for me, I am 35 and finding it hard to move abroad again, and I wish someone had warned me :)
emrys95@reddit
prolly due to general shit economy and job market worldwide tho right
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I had a friend, 49 years old, moving with 3 kids. It can be done!
DoctorGonzooi@reddit
This is not an airport or something where you have to check out. If you don't like it here, you can still leave and go back home.. We can use the living space well for people who are grateful to us.
Thank you, come again.... (please don't)
Internal_Atmosphere@reddit
Thank you for this! I’ve been dreaming of moving back to the Netherlands after living there for a year almost a decade ago. I’m a US citizen living in Colombia. It sounds like NL might not be the right place for me anymore or at least it’s as perfect as I remembered!
ParfaitCareful8518@reddit
We've just moved back to the UK after 12yrs in Ontario. The way North America is run to think that work is the most important thing... not giving people time to recover from injuries, everyone fighting for a job with "permanent full time with benefits" (which you then can't leave, even if you hate it, because "golden handcuffs" - who wants to start again from the bottom on an unstable contract.
It's a beautiful country, but employers give little chance to embrace/enjoy - let alone explore a different country.
We finally acquired our "full time with benefits" but 10 days holiday a year is hard to stretch, especially if you enjoy traveling AND have family in another country. My boss was disappointed I'd booked 19 days off (ended up including weekends & Easter stat days so wasn't that bad). She said 10 days is the maximum we could take at once. Working for a big casino, I got penalised for taking more than my allocated 10 days (came home for a wedding and spent Christmas in Canada with family).
So when my husband said he wanted to come back to spend time with his parents (turning 80), it didn't take me long to start investigating!
We're in Wales now - a completely new area to us. Not working yet, taking some downtime (though almost everyone I told I was leaving in Canada asked what I'd do for work).
I don't remember ever running out of holiday before we left; and 3 week holidays were the norm.
I know England has it's issues too, but we're loving the Shrewsbury area and omg hiking up the hills, driving a lil manual car around the windy lanes. Even the grey cloudy days - and no shovelling! 🙌🏼
We loved the snow; it was fun and pretty but such hard work. The ice storm (April) was a crazy experience (lost power for 10 days) and the winters are SO long. It's exciting to think we'll see crocuses and tulips in a few weeks! A proper spring!
So far we're happy to be here and enjoying all the treats, munchies, food and drinks, pub grub & beer gardens that we've missed!
Ontario has lakes galore but places "patios" in car parks - whassat - why?!
Welcome home - enjoy!! 💕
bytemist@reddit
Watch out for the tax incentives: there are crippling rules to it (like not having the same job/employer, not compatible with forfettario, not discounting inps, etc.)
Aside from it I can totally get your feeling. It's hard to accept, because it is not measurable, however that feeling is real. Some people really need that diversity, and sometimes I see it as a handicap, since it has been given to you from where you were born 🤭 however that's also the beauty of it
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I have an accountant that's taking care of the rules tied to the tax incentives, all covered!
bytemist@reddit
Do you have suggestions for self employed ppl? Write me in pm if you wish
werchoosingusername@reddit
Netherlands, Germany and some other former champions are failing...big time. You are aware of living a life in Stand-by mode and this depressing, which explains the current mental state.
Yes, Italy has its issues, but there are at least still things that make for up for the negative things.
My countries (motherland and my EU-land) both failed at some point. I saw the slow decline 20+ years ago and left.
I love Europe and it breaks my heart how it is becoming more and more merely a tourist destination.
General_Confusion478@reddit
The problem is called EU! ...... they destroyed everything with ideology! ..... You'll understand when you come back
Both__@reddit
The Netherlands is ridiculously overrated and you have articulated why so very well.
Valuable_Echo2043@reddit
OP never said that though, unless we're reading different posts?
giftools@reddit
Also OP didn't articulate anything, chat gpt did
simple_explorer1@reddit
the points were still OP's as chatgpt doesn't write on their own without a input prompt
giftools@reddit
ChatGPT doesn't generate a wall of text like this without adding its own touch. And people usually have a whole conversation with it before generating the final text, during which it influences the user.
simple_explorer1@reddit
sorry but you seem like you "want" to write such reply
Your replies are disingenious because you are effectively saying "Chatgpt was used to create the final output so this cannot be taken seriously". You know that people write a raw thoughts of texts, give it to chatgpt to clean it up and post it. Even if you factor in the gpt "touch", the talking points are still OP's and what they wanted to share, but, in a polished english which is engaging to read.
giftools@reddit
No fuck off
simple_explorer1@reddit
classy. chatgpt would have done better job than you though...lol
Interesting-Tackle74@reddit
This is not what I was reading in this post
MildlyEngineer@reddit
Wait, who is overrating the Netherlands? We are not Sweden.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It's a great place to be while it's right for you!
SKYxSylke@reddit
Bye!
indiestacker@reddit
A lot of the countries that rank at the top of all the lists are going in the wrong direction.
With smaller countries finally getting a chance to compete with tax incentives and new visas the legacy countries are all taxing the exit as they know what’s inevitable.
People will wake up to the fact that you need warmth from the sun and from the people under it to live a happy life
Optimal-Squirrel-883@reddit
This could have been me describing how I feel living in Denmark. But I don’t really have a specific country to go back to as I grew up partly in Bulgaria, Germany and Sweden. And don’t have “home country” to go back to like that. So I have been missing the only places that actually felt like home to me climate, culture and environmental wise and that’s the UK and Italy actually. However after Brexit and the current immigration hostility I don’t know if if I can move there at all. And I don’t speak Italian. Also am single and started over many times so it’s a lot of work and wish I had someone to share that with. So nice you have each other and can go back to the most wonderful country and people!
daanhoofd1@reddit
These winter days I have exactly been experiecing some of the things you have. And I was born here. Best of luck.
Deruxian@reddit
Best health care system in the world but ok good luck in Italy….
Shurdus@reddit
K bye.
Mountain_9574@reddit
Same thing happened with us with Canada and life is so much better when we left. Canada was good to us while we were there, not good anymore and interestingly we had the exact same issues you mentioned. Our quality of life improved 1000% and life feels like “living” not “surviving” anymore.
Potential_Pie2763@reddit
I think you’d love Canada. Especially Alberta or British Columbia
MiMichellle@reddit
I'm Dutch, born and raised, and I completely agree with everything you've written down here. The long winters, the dreary days, the lack of "warmth" from people, and the boring, predictable geography.
The biggest deal breaker to me is the people. They're cold, distant, and it's honestly like they just don't care. My girlfriend's from the Carolinas, and I already made more small talk with strangers during the 7 hour flight there than I did in an entire *year* of living here. Getting to ride shotgun with her as we make our way down the Blue Ridge Parkway, taking in the trees, the mountains, the wildlife... It feels like coming home, it really does. Like a warm, fuzzy hug.
The political situation's far from ideal over there right now, of course, but... I'll be honest, my heart knows what it wants. Sure, the Netherlands is safe, stable and has a high QoL, but it just... I dunno, it doesn't feel like I'm really *living* here. Just existing.
Thewayfwd@reddit
Eye opener story.
Vidi_Vici_@reddit
Doei
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
I could say the same about Denmark. I am getting ready to return to Romania for the same reasons after 13 years here. The health care system was the deal-breaker for me as well.
fnoki15@reddit
What bad experience could you share from danish health care ?
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
Ahh, where do I even start… Without going into too much personal detail: repeated medical gaslighting (dismissing a long list of serious physical symptoms as “just anxiety/stress”), refusing referrals, prescribing very strong medications on extremely vague grounds, and then… 8-month waiting times to see a neurologist (some specialties are even worse). For comparison: my grandma in Romania went to her GP with minor throat discomfort during the same period, got referred, and was seen by an ENT the following week. Here in Denmark, the wait for an ENT is 5–6 months, even when the symptoms are genuinely debilitating. It’s exhausting, demoralising, and honestly scary. I no longer feel medically safe here, and it makes me not want to grow old in this country.
fnoki15@reddit
Thanks
I’m French , currently living in Canada ( big metropole and not remote area) And i experience similar stories as you Fortunately, as I am able to travel to France 2 months/ year , I take advantage to make appointments with specialists and exams while I’m there . We have a french website called Doclib where I can book appointments in a very short delay . I pay out of pocket, but it still pretty reasonable and most importantly It’s quick
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
France nevertheless is still a great place to live
CatMinous@reddit
Nevertheless? He was praising France
fnoki15@reddit
My partner does not want to leave Canada unfortunately 😀 because she loves her work so much ( with good salary and benefits)
MoreEngineer8696@reddit
Curious, because I've been looking into Romania.. how's the health care there? Is it true that you should get a private one?
Tandfeen_dk22@reddit
Having private insurance is a good idea too, and it’s quite cheap. But Romania’s system is actually very accesible. As a working EU citizen, you’re fully covered by public health insurance. Romania has many specialists and it’s more affordable even for the locals.
MoreEngineer8696@reddit
Thanks!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Good luck to you!
SergeantHartman79@reddit
Haha I’m Dutch and I feel exactly like this. We live in an expensive, overcrowded, completely cultivated and neatly built city park.
LisaLou71@reddit
Great post. Very thoughtful. Thank you for taking the time!
TropicalBound111@reddit
I think what causes depression is not always the lack of nature. The lack of human connection or the lack of warm interaction plays a role too. The Dutch people (and also the rest of the people from western, northern, and eastern Europe) can be pretty reserved and individualistic, and that causes depression.
Anyone feeling depressed should move to southeast Asia, especially Indonesia, the Philippines, and may be Thailand. The people in those countries are so warm, polite, friendly, make connections pretty easily, thereby making your life feel a lot brighter. They’re also the opposite of individualism. Instant cure for depression!
Particular-Music-665@reddit
i heard the opposite. people in asia are very friendly and smile at you, but if you need real connection and honest deep conversation... forget it.
simple_explorer1@reddit
then where can you find those?
Particular-Music-665@reddit
maybe everywhere, if you radiate your interrest and openess. but i still think that some cultures and social groups are more likely to encourage honesty and self awareness then others.
never been to asia, i live in europe. but i read a lot and also talked to people who lived there, even married someone from asia, who confirmed that.
maybe our western lifestyle focuses more on the individuum and therefore gives us this opportunities more than other cultural requirements.
LesnBOS@reddit
Mexico and South American also
Intrepid_Result8223@reddit
Well, you lived in the Netherlands, but that doesn't make you Dutch.
We have a saying: "Je moet zelf de slingers ophangen"
notboring@reddit
I moved from the US to Holland. I live in central Amsterdam. I have an advantage in living here. I've lived in many cities and never felt at home anywhere. So...more of the same here!
simple_explorer1@reddit
why don't you feel at home in amsterdam? Aren't you making dutch friends, having laugh and meeting dutch people for beer, having random interesting conversations with Dutch people, aren't you invited by Dutch to their house for dinner and meet their friends and family, aren't you getting smiles and welcoming attitude when you are with the locals, aren't the Dutch people spontaneously stopping by your home to check on you and help you if you incase you need anything, aren't you already one of "them"?
Why haven't you felt at home?
notboring@reddit
Really it's a "me" issue. For personal reasons going back to childhood, I have never felt at home anywhere. I didn't feel at home in my own home growing up. So again, a personal thing. I've read a number of comments of people who have moved to The Netherlands and feel that no matter how long they live here, they will never be fully accepted or that there is an inherent distance between them and the Dutch. I can't say that I experience Holland that way. I experience Holland the way I experienced San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago and Miami. I didn't feel at home in any of those places either, which actually made it easy for me to move to a new country. It's a personal admission. If there is in fact some inhernent external reason these other people experienced here, I would in a sense be immune to it. I'm fine here. I have absolutely no problem with the people or the country. It's just me.
EternallyFascinated@reddit
After living in many places, and people always asking me which is ‘the best’, that it always my answer - there is no best, it’s simply what works for you the best at that moment in your lives.
As an American married to a half Irish/half Italian man, we lived in both the US and UK. But now we are here in Italy, enjoying what it has to offer to us and our children at the moment.
I wish you the best!
Secure-Ad9780@reddit
There is something very comforting about seeing the red tile roofs in Italy. Italians are open, friendly people. I'll never forget my years in Vicenza. If I didn't have 3 large dogs I'd move back.
Numerous_Boat8471@reddit
So basically OP is homesick and goes back to homeland “to live the good life” while on a salary from a foreign country making the life of his people worse since they have to compete with his inflated salary… good riddance my friend!
PhonkyMonky@reddit
Why do you say that they are “making the lives of his people worse” since they will be making money abroad and spend that money in Italy, wouldn’t that be a good thing? Plus they will not be taking any local jobs since they already have remote jobs.
Numerous_Boat8471@reddit
Because “he” is forcing the prices of all things around him to rise. If you earn 2€ and people around you are earning 1€ you have more momey to spend/you are willing to pay higher prices without caring if they are high for the ohter people. Its the same story in every place where the digital nomands are stepping their foot to
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I will send you part of my salary to your bank account to compensate!
Numerous_Boat8471@reddit
No man, dont worry I’m satisfied with what I’m earning. If you really want to offer it somewhere find a good cause and make a donation!
scalable5432@reddit
I agree with your healthcare comment. I think healthcare in India is better than NL.
Phoe-nix@reddit
In the winter the lacking sun leads to vitamin D deficiency in the Netherlands. This causes fatigue and other symptoms as the vitamin D blood level gradually drops.
Can be countered by taking vitamin D supplements. How much one needs is very personal though and too much is harmful as well.
MuchBag1867@reddit
Bye
Mission_Accident_519@reddit
You did a great job listing the biggest flaws of this country
royreadit@reddit
The “remote work” would allow you to earn NL money in Italy? Just saying, glad you could make this work but I don’t think this qualifies as “leaving”
Professional-Art9972@reddit
Loved reading your post, i was nervous if you decided to return to the U.S. and you didn’t. I sighed with relief ;) What a beautiful adventure you had. Enjoy the new chapter!!
EveryPen260@reddit
Totally understand moved back to Portugal for similar reasons.
Live abroad was nice but was missing too much back home.
Inductiekookplaat@reddit
Totally understandable, I would have the same if I (from The Netherlands) would move to Portugal. Beautiful country with good food and lovely people, but my social circle and family is here.
Inductiekookplaat@reddit
Perfectly understandable! As a Dutchie, I enjoy live here, but I miss the sunny days sometimes. Although southern Europe is way to hot in summer, and I love that the sun goes down at 10:00 PM here. In Southern Europe it's quite early, even in summer. Also, there's no family or friends away from the Netherlands. Hope you find the things you're looking for again!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We're going to hate the 40C summers for sure. Light until late is something we're going to miss!
Inductiekookplaat@reddit
When I traveled to New Zealand, Australia and Slovenia I felt how free you can feel with beautiful nature around. I might try to move too someday, to see how it is. Northen Italy sounds nice.
qwests@reddit
Dutch person with a romanian wife here. You perfectly describe the experience that we have as well. We have good salaries so we are very comfortable, but something is missing and its hard to put your finger on what exactly is wrong. Nothing is "bad". But things aren't great either. Its these small things like you mentioned that just add up.
the69PUNISHER@reddit
Send us some pizza's and pasta's if u are there
GeoworkerEnsembler@reddit
Can you name which taxes are lower in Italy? Because you wrote “everything is heavily taxed”
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Italy has high taxes as well. Something I noticed lately for example, is that the same car costs 20k in Italy and 30k in the Netherlands.
GeoworkerEnsembler@reddit
That car would cost all over the world 20k, the Netherlands has a special tax called BPM.
So what taxes are lower in Italy?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
None?
ingenious-mediocrity@reddit
Well, according to this chart, employer contributions are a bit larger in Italy:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Payroll_and_income_tax_by_country.png
GeoworkerEnsembler@reddit
Yes, but that includes the health insurance which Italians think is free
rmvandink@reddit
I had the opposite, spent a lot of time abroad but missed the Netherlands and am so glad you be back. Like most places it’s millions of different experiences for millions of different people. But it’s what fits my life. I am close to family and friends. I live in a region I love.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
No place like home!
rmvandink@reddit
Yes. I really see what you mean with missing nature though. Even in my lifetime it’s gotten so much more built up and busy. Nature is always a stone’s throw from a motorway or railway.
cachitodepepe@reddit
I had the same problem with the health care system in NZ. And it is even worse because hospitals are just a few, and professionals mostly crossed the ditch to Australia where they earn almost double with the same cost of living.
We left mostly for this same feeling of being unprotected and that there was no way to get proper healthcare, even paying whatever the cost was.
simple_explorer1@reddit
What?? Isn't NZ the best country in everything, including the healthcare? Wasn't private healthcare available where you can get the best healthcare the country has to offer?
cachitodepepe@reddit
Lol. I tried private and public, and system is the same.
The specialists mafia tells the GPs to not send anymore people because they are overflowed of patients. The. The GP tries every random thing that comes to their minds to kick you further in time and not send you to an specialist.
And specialists, ONLY make you an appointment if you have a GP referral. Private and public is the same, not even with money you are safe.
simple_explorer1@reddit
insane
Valuable_Calendar_79@reddit
Dutch Kiwi here. Same problem in Europe. And all those folk from Spain, Italy, Greece, dreaming about going home again, away from the cold climate in the North.
Just check the demographic future stats for European countries, 2025 versus 2050. Which countries will have gained population and which ones will have lost. And with that you can also see where work, career options and high wages will be.
NZ has one big advantage. There are still plenty of people that are migrating to NZ, population is still growing.
simple_explorer1@reddit
The problem is, most use NZ as a backdoor to AU. I know many migrants who moved to NZ because they couldn't get to AU either because they are older than 45 years or they simply don't qualify for AU but they did for NZ.
So, NZ is not getting the migrants who want to live in NZ.
cachitodepepe@reddit
I am not sure where you are going. Population in NZ may be growing but healthcare is not enough even for the current population and far from 3rd world (far worse than 3rd world).
Valuable_Calendar_79@reddit
The healthcare problem in NZ is not caused by a population collapse, like rural parts in Southern or Eastern Europe. NZ has a growing population and growing GDP. The problem then is politics=voters not making the right decisions.
sebadc@reddit
Based in Germany, but I get the feeling.
Additionally, Italy is really improving on many aspects (at least big cities in the South), whereas it seems that the NL and DE are mostly stagnating.
After 17y in Germany, we are pondering a move and would likely do it promptly if the AfD is elected. Wife and daughter are Italian and I look "mediterranean"-enough to not be bothered.
Have fun at home!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Italy is still a mess; Not as much as a third world country though. Indeed I have seen improvements in the last 10 years in some regards.
sebadc@reddit
I don't know... I've been living in Modena for a while. Except the salaries, the city was surprisingly good. Napoli center city is not recognizable compared to 15y ago (the harbour area is super nice). The infrastructures are still crappy, but train connections are now more reliable (and faster) than in Germany (as comparison).
Educational_Fix2006@reddit
Good luck in your immediate surroundings
_space_ghost_@reddit
I'm on a similar boat. Very exhausting to be in NL. And becoming frustrated with many things - most of them you mentioned.
Thanks for sharing this. Good luck with your new chapter!
Wide_Team_550@reddit
I am dutch and i agree with OP
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Sterkte :(
sendmebirds@reddit
Always welcome back, Italian friends! All the best to you
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We zullen zeker nog even op bezoek komen!
Cool-Law578@reddit
I’m from here, but you put exactly into words how I’ve been feeling. Once I’m starting to get older, I realize living here is quite draining. I hope to find a remote job🤞🏼
Formal-Box-610@reddit
sell your house pls. don't be one of those foreign landlord's.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Are you buying?
nlfire865@reddit
Many southerners never get to fully integrate because of the aspects you mentioned. Financially the Netherlands is definitely better, but it's an individual's unique set of priorities that matter. In the end, it's not worth sacrificing one's mental health for money.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Life is too short to be sad for money.
poobear_74@reddit
I don't know much about the economic conditions in Italy, except has a corruption problem, so its hard to get a sense of the actual tradeoffs involved. You are fortunate that going back to your home land is an option. For many, it can never be an option as their country of origin is so deeply dysfunctional and so obviously on a trajectory that will lead to terrible things. In any case though, I think you will find that pretty much everyone that lives abroad, feels a loss of warmth for a period. It is totally normal and expected. You have to be prepared to live a somewhat compromised life for a period for the good of your children and personal development in other areas. If you come from a stable country, it is hard to reconcile that feeling of familial loss. If you come from deep distressed country, you must accept it whether you like it or not.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Luckily, no kids on sight ever!
Afraid-Ad4718@reddit
Good to hear mate!! take care and enjoy your life!!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thanks, you too!
otsosik@reddit
No one, absolutely no one give a fuck. Do what you want to do
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
The number of comments and upvotes prove you extremely wrong.
Real-Wolverine-8249@reddit
If you don't mind my asking, what part of Italy are you from?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
North
lumosmxima@reddit
Wow thanks for the detail and context. I always assumed quite differently about places like the Netherlands, Copenhagen etc. especially around healthcare. Best of luck to you both!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you. Good luck to you too!
sryazigi@reddit
Which country do you think that would be the best fit to try to combine the best of both worlds? aside from Italy, the nature, landscape, the warmth of Italy, but also the economics, the growth and the order of the Netherlands?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
None; there is no perfect country unfortunately.
LiteratureCivil700@reddit
Not OP, but Australia maybe? Although I heard they have a housing crisis too, and it's a remote country.
happyhappyjoyjoy77@reddit
US and German expat immigrant couple living in Amsterdam for 8 years and just had our first baby. Resonate with this a lot and still struggle with the high income / happy warm country trade off and where we’re headed especially with our baby’s childhood in our hands 💛 thanks for putting words to it.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
You're welcome!
GalbzInCalbz@reddit
Your story shows how a place can help you grow yet stop feeling like home. Sometimes alignment fades. Returning to a landscape and culture that refuels you can be the healthiest reset.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Only death is forever!
Buttercup_1019@reddit
Well shit I’m on a plane to Amsterdam to move there and now I’m freaked out.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We enjoyed it for 10 years - that's plenty of time for you to be there!
LiteratureCivil700@reddit
For some people it works out great, for others less. It's a matter of fit. Don't stress too much over it. In dutch they say "het komt wel goed": things are going to be fine.
UnluckyChampion93@reddit
All this we found out in 3 years already, even though we love the culture and the country, we just moved after covid and we feel life getting so quickly so expensive and services decline in a rapid rate. We did not move “back” yet, but it is on the table as an option. We pay so much in tax, and get nothing in return, no safety nets, no support, no housing options, no preventive healthcare, no childcare, talking about introducing toll-roads while we pay so much road tax already, most expensive plane tickets in europe, declining quality in train service, declining quality in the electricity grids, bad trash collection. Since I’m living in The NL there was NO ELECTED LEADERSHIP, on paper yes, but literally nothing happened in 3 years in politics other than debates about coalitions and elections. No decisions, no direction, no real solution or at least attempt to address the issues for the upcoming generations.
I think you would have bailed after 5 years if you only move in 2020 and not before.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Spot on about taxes!
sL1PEr@reddit
Interesting, I could have written the same post!! Still here but have exactly the same thoughts / feelings. GL and great that you took the decision!
whatashame_13@reddit
After six years, this summer, we also left The Netherlands to go back to Lebanon for the same reasons. Despite the situation in the Middle east, it has been already 6 months since i left, and couldnt be happier. I left with my husband and kids, i though it was going to be difficult, but they adapted quickly to their own culture. I think NL was a nice chapter of personal and career growth but not the right place to live forever. Good luck
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Enjoy Lebanon!
daddabarba@reddit
Thank you for the very thorough and honest post. If I may ask, how was it for you to find jobs in Italy at the same time when moving back? Were you also constrained by the location you are going back to or was the location dictated hy the job opportunities within Italy?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I have an awesome resume and it's just a matter of sending an email for me, luckily.
honeybee2552@reddit
These are exactly the same reasons why my husband and I left NL after 6 years. Now we are settling for good in Spain. Good luck to you OP!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Nice, Spain is a great place!
Economy_Vast_8877@reddit
This is the perfect description of The Netherlands! My wife and I understand you 100%. We feel exactly the same and it's time for us to move on as well. All the best mate!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
All the best to you too, mate!
baudolino80@reddit
It will be shocking coming back to Italy… auguri ragazzi!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Grazie!
jasonborntodie@reddit
Thats more than fair, live long and prosper my good friend. Life is an instant and we have to make the most of it!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
🖖🏻
Ok_Degree_322@reddit
I guess this is a feeling of nostalgia most people have when they have left their country of birth. I am from NL, I would never miss mountains but would also like to live in France or Portugal for some time. In child times we develop a kind of love to the landscape we are used to live in by birth, I hear French people missing France and spanish people missing Spain, I think its a normal way in live to dream back to our start, some being old but some people even much younger.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes, the environment you grow up into has a major effect on you!
outwithyomom@reddit
I’m at the same stage of fatigue and drain. Returning to the country where I came from is not an option though. You should feel lucky that you have a suitable fallback solution. All the best for the future.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I know of people going back to South Africa, Iran, Brazil, India, Lebanon...
Fluffy-Drop5750@reddit
So long, and thanks for all the pasta. (c;
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
So long and thanks for all the boerenkool to you!
ben_malaussene@reddit
Please make a follow up of how re-entering in Italy goes. I have been in NL for 15 years and many times I thought about moving back, due to current family situation that won't be for another 8 or 10 years at least.
One thing I worry about though is how long/if I'd ever stop feeling like a guest once I go back... Like a spectator in my family's life... Will I be able to create new friendships and connections like I have here? Long story short, I'm afraid to move back and feel miserable...
On a practical side, how challenging are the preparations to move back? Besides de-registering from the gemeente, terminating various contracts etc... will you have to keep your bank account for a while or transfer everything? Will you keep your Dutch phone number for some time? Does the Embassy help with the process? Did you already have jobs/housing back in Italy or will look once you're back?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I guess I will keep my bank account and phone numbers, you never now. For the rest everything can be done online. In Italy you have to go to the municipio to register... that's it more or less.
Temporary_Flow_9515@reddit
We've had alot of unhappy migrants over here through the years, wish they had they same introspection as you guys had.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
No place like home!
Temporary_Flow_9515@reddit
I understand Italy is a beautiful country.
randomstuffness@reddit
I've been here 16 yrs and your post resonates. That said, this is the best place I've ever lived and I continue to love it despite some challenges. I wish you all the best for your return journey. I hope life improves with this transition. Take care.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It's a country with many pros!
Far-Tourist-3233@reddit
You have just explained my life , so thank you for that! There are some things I could never quite put my finger on as to why I feel so low on energy and just down a lot of the time, when in other places I feel vibrant! I too have made the decision to move back to my home country , for all of the reasons you have stated . Thank you and good luck with your move 😁💫
TheoKolokotronis@reddit
At least you have a home country. I have similar feelings, but I was born here! :) A lot of my Greek friends who lived here went back between 2008 en 2010, despite their country being in a huge depression.
Far-Tourist-3233@reddit
Oh no, sorry 😞 Which country are you in?
TheoKolokotronis@reddit
The Netherlands :) (oops, thought I was typing on a Dutch forum)
Far-Tourist-3233@reddit
Ahh ok, I was thinking so but you kinda threw me with the Greek friends 😁
DisplayVirtual@reddit
I'm also Korean living in Berlin and planning to move back to korea. I only lived 2 years but it's hard to fight with depression and lack of motivation.
Far-Tourist-3233@reddit
I understand, I’ve been in this country for 5 years. I always knew it wasn’t really for me but stuck it out and now I realise I just don’t have to stick it out , we will be much happier closer to home. Good luck with your move back home
DisplayVirtual@reddit
Good luck with your journey in Korea, and all the best in your future
TheoKolokotronis@reddit
:) The city I used to live in, Utrecht, has a lot of Greek immigrants, expats and students.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
Far-Tourist-3233@reddit
😁❤️
NicoleVK69@reddit
I'm Dutch. Lived here most of my life, except for quite some time in Belgium, and I feel the exact same way you do. I'm struggling to feel emotionally well in this country, always have. Now, Belgium and The Netherlands are not like worlds apart, yet even in Belgium I felt myself finally being more alive. At least there's a bit of a mountains and non curated nature in the Ardennes. The pace is also a little bit slower. The country is a little less regulated and therefore less predictable. However insignificant all these things might be, it did stimulate my spirit. Something I hardly ever experience in The Netherlands. And this is just what I feel when I'm a few kilometers across the border. I can only imagine how much your soul must be yearning for family and nature back in Italy. Thank you for sharing your experiences and putting it into words in a way I couldn't have, and best of luck to you and your family!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We loved our trips to Belgium. Great people and beautiful landscapes.
PicoPicoMio@reddit
I’m Dutch but I moved to the US and now I’m in Japan for the next 3 years. I feel the same way, I love my family back home, but I’m uninterested in moving to NL again permanently.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Nice choices! We considered the US as well, maybe one day. We'd like to be close to family for a while.
Schtaive@reddit
I relate very much to how you're feeling. Living here isn't really my vibe, but I'm a bit stuck for where to go next. Especially with a newborn.
Wishing you the best of luck ❤️
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It took a few years for us too. Hang in there!
Mammoth_Shoe_3832@reddit
All the best! A rare, honest, well thought-through and articulate post! Forza Italia to you — and long live the Netherlands. From neither country, by the way!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Long live both countries!
hungry-axolotl@reddit
I'm just curious, but there's seems to be a lot of people who moved to the Netherlands. What are the main reasons for the initial hype?
Enaoreokrintz@reddit
Career opportunities and prospects that simply do not exist in the medditeranean european countries unfortunately.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I would say career opportunities and growth. Once you are top talent, jobs are where you are.
hungry-axolotl@reddit
Makes sense, thanks for the reply
SmilingAmericaAmazon@reddit
Could you have been reacting to mold in NL?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
No mold in my house, we take good care of it.
SmilingAmericaAmazon@reddit
Not your house, but in general.
I visited NL last March and loved it as a visitor, however my mold allergies were triggered. I suspect with all the water and dampness there is a high mold count outdoors.
For some, their reaction to mold is fatigue.
ForTheSakeOfOpposing@reddit
I’m proud that you’ve realised this and are acting on it now. Life is too short to wait for it to happen. Someday, I’ll follow, not physically but metaphorically ❤️
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
All the best!
Flimsy_Response6424@reddit
i've moved country twice, expect mixed feelings and paperwork.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Already priced in!
OriginalMenu5730@reddit
Such beautiful written! May I ask to which age goup do you belong to?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Early 30s
Green_Mind60@reddit
You mention access to and quality of healthcare being important to you. How do the 2 countries compare in that aspect?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I did write a couple lines about that in older comments. I can repeat it here if you can't find it!
Potato_King2@reddit
I used to live in the UK and after Brexit, I felt it just was not the same. Difficult to put my finger in it. I did not feel welcome anymore and it is not the country that I first moved to.
I have been in the Netherlands for almost 9 years now. I still love it. Of course, I share your views on the cost of living and such. I feel more at home here than in my home country or in the UK so for me it still fits.
I wish you and your wife every success in the future.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you, good luck to you too!
PrincessPotatoBrain@reddit
Oh man, I am French, been here 15 years, and I feel you. I feel everything you say all the way into my bones. I can deal with the weather. I can deal with the food, somewhat (even though the fact my kid was raised with a Dutch palate makes me sob). But the lack of real nature, and relief (a hill, just give me a hill!), it is killing me.
And I think some very paradoxical things only show up a couple of years into it. The fact that the Dutch are renowned for their open mindedness, but once you're here and settled... You realize how terribly normative they are. The room to be different is actually very narrow - and the reality is that it's not that you won't be judged, it's that you'll be judged quietly, insidiously. It doesn't matter to me much, but I see how its affecting my kid.
And the lack of warmth and spontaneity, everything always so organized and scheduled, it's doing my head in. I think I also have come to the end of my Dutch road, but I'll wait until my kid is out of basisschool, so the shock isn't too hard.
I hope you have an amazing time back in Italy. Be careful : you can never go home, Dorothy! You have changed now, and it will not fit as well. But I find that that's what's nice about moving around a lot. You take what you want and what you like from each culture, and you can choose to feel home everywhere instead of nowhere.
All the best xx
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Indeed, I don't think we feel Italian anymore, or Dutch, or anything really. We're European I guess? Home is where we want to be, in a way...
Selenesenpaii@reddit
Im a Turkish person living in the NL and feeling the same thing. Healthcare is the biggest deal breaker for me and I don’t feel like I belong here. I feel like a de-energized version of my self and the more time passes the more I cannot recognize myself and who I am becoming. I miss the sun, I miss spontaneous adventurous warm people. But I also don’t want to return and pay taxes to a government that is oppressive, fighting against LGBTQ, fighting against feminism, that only channels those taxes to their close circle while they continue fucking up the system we had that worked and was quite okay. If the politics change it would be a no brainer for me and I would go back. But at this point I don’t want to, I also don’t know where else I can go within EU that will allow me to live how I want to live.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It's important to choose your battles.
Due-Movie-5566@reddit
There’s so much nature here if you just get out of the Randstad.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I am outside the Randstad and I think I've seen it pretty much all, except for some of the Waddeneilanden.
moderationscarcity@reddit
i am on the opposite side of this, having just moved to NL from LA and we are loving every minute of our experience in this magical legoland… however i have also lived as an expat in Milano for 3 years and it was a depressing nightmare!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes, your experience in Milano sounds about right.
Responsible_Cap5100@reddit
Irish living in NL 24 years and couldn’t agree more. I learned Dutch to almost native level, in recent years joined Società Dante Alighieri in Rotterdam and the Irish club as I felt my life here lacked depth.
The cost of living is unjustified, and the healthcare while it looks good on paper is a joke, I broke my wrist and just knew I needed a hospital but had to call my Huisartsenpraktijk and ended up in an argument on the phone. Reluctantly they gave me “permission” to go to the hospital.
I had the x ray got a cast and took the bus home, everyone was too busy to look after me in my hour of need. The last one stings, Irish people would cancel their work meetings and not only drive you to hospital but drive you back again.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Irish and British people are among my favourite!
Numerous-Treat960@reddit
Thank you for this heartfelt message. I wish you and your partner the very best in Italy 🙏
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you, all the best to you!
PowerBitch2503@reddit
Good luck in Italy!
As Dutchy I feel exactly the same way. I always say that somehow I was born in the wrong country.
Unfortunately for me there’s no place to go back to. The only language I speak well enough is English, but the UK wouldn’t be an improvement, the USA has it’s own problems and Australia/ New Zealand are hard to get into.
But life in the Netherlands is really depressing.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Hang in there!
EastIndianDutch@reddit
Bye cya
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
👋
ProishNoob@reddit
Honestly, this sound about right.
Although I think being so far away from your families when obviously you miss that, possibly plays a bigger part in how you feel than most other things. Like, I think it may exacerbate things.
But yeah, it's pretty spot on.
BicoastalQueen@reddit
You’re going “back” to Italy to clarify??
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes, I am Italian and going back to Italy.
BicoastalQueen@reddit
Got it — yeah that’s good to know. I guess you feel like the Italian healthcare system is a bit better?
213McKibben@reddit
Well written article. I lived for a period of time in NL and I really loved being with the Dutch people after living and working in Germany for 3 years. I found the Dutch people very upbeat and had so much fun. I like yourselves, I did a lot of long distance cycling and found the comradery with the Dutch cyclists to be great, along with their sense of humor. I ended up getting an offer to go work in Munich, so I did move, staying in Munich for 5 years, I loved the city there too and found it to be more expensive than any apartment in Alkmaar. Munich offered a lot more, mainly mountains, sun and a lot of leisure time activities. I eventually outgrew Munich and moved on but I still look back only days in NL and Bavaria with joy. I am still in contact with many of my NL friends and once every 2 or 3 years we ride from Zürich to Rotterdam more or less non-stop through the night and day. I lived in NL in the late 80s when it was probably still very livable.
MaxGaav@reddit
In the 80s NL was very different. It is currently a steerless sinking ship. And the atmosphere is 'Every man for himself, God for us all.'
simple_explorer1@reddit
what is sinking about NL?
MaxGaav@reddit
Aside from Malta, we have the highest population density in Europe. The country is exploding with (non-western) immigrants. There are hardly any houses available and thus they are extremely expensive. Basics like food, gas, energy, etc, are all extremely expensive. Just across the border in Germany and in Belgium it's a lot cheaper. Crime rates are rising (even though they try to prove otherwise) and crime becomes heavier.
Politics are steerless. With the last elections there were about fifty parties (!) Many don't want to collaborate with each other. It's all about fighting eachother, about egos. But not about solving the serious problems our country has.
simple_explorer1@reddit
you literally described every desirable western country
MaxGaav@reddit
In a way, yes. But quality of life is already much higher in Germany and Spain, for example. There's more living space. More nature. Taxes are lower. Houses are cheaper. Food is cheaper and of better quality.
simple_explorer1@reddit
but they are not as desirable as canada, Australia, USA, NL etc. that's why i said, desirable western countries.
Also, the economy of Spain is in shambles, that's why so many Spainards leave Spain. Even Germany is not that desirable by most migrants, it is just a stop gap for better countries.
So, my point still stands, anywhere desirable is swamped by foreigners and the one's that's left are the places with no opportunities or not desirable or both.
What's next, you will say "Poland has higher quality of life and costs less", because it is true but guess what, "most migrants find poland desirable"
MaxGaav@reddit
I was talking about the Netherlands.
simple_explorer1@reddit
why would you go from NL back to Germany when you clearly didn't like Germany in the first place. Like why put yourself through that?
No-Ingenuity-9837@reddit
Honestly, these are all fair points and its great that you put some tough to it. I also feel this constant “low battery” feeling and it is so weird because whenever I am going somewhere else this disappears. The health care system is good but only if you have a real life threatening issue. I agree, prevention is almost inexistent and no GP is talking about it.
I could also see how NL slowly changes in something less attractive for anyone to live here. Higher prices, unsafe cities, traffic etc.
Important_Coach9717@reddit
And we should care why ?
Funky-Grey-Monkey@reddit
Who’s “we”
LeeSunhee@reddit
I feel you on the cold dark winters. This is the reason why I would never move up north.
Ill_Current_7197@reddit
What cold winter? We havent had one in a decade.
LeeSunhee@reddit
Anything bellow 15°C is cold to me 🤣 I would prefer to live somewhere like Thailand where the temperuture basically never drops bellow 20. The cold makes my joints hurt. But the cold is just one aspect of it. The other one is darkness - when I wake up in the morning it's dark, I go to work it's dark, I come home from work at around 5-6pm, it's again dark. And the city I work in is also known for having thick fog every day during winter. So I basically don't see the sun all winter. It's extremely depressing to me.
Valuable_Calendar_79@reddit
Ok, but on the other hand. I was in Catalunia in March, hiking near Olot, met and talked to the "Barcelonians" there in the weekends. They said that the Summers are now getting so hot, that it becomes hard to live and it is getting scary. The climate in Netherlands for 8 months of the year is not that bad I think.
LeeSunhee@reddit
Yeah I hear of people dying of heat stroke every summer in Spain 💔 every place has it's pros and cons but just for me personally it's much harder to withstand the cold and dark winters than extreme heat. Both physically and mentally.
young_twitcher@reddit
Did you ever become fluent in Dutch? I live in a country where I don't speak the local language (despite trying to learn) and i feel like no matter how the locals may be proficient in English, you'll always be treated differently if you don't speak their native language. This wears you down over time.
simple_explorer1@reddit
looks like you are in Germany
young_twitcher@reddit
Poland. But it’s the same everywhere really - people always prefer to speak in their native language when they are in everyday situations.
simple_explorer1@reddit
absolutely, and netherlands is no different. Infact, the trope that "most dutch people speak good english" is true for basic things. Most dutch struggle with anything remotely interpersonal, including professionals which goes on to show that they only use english when they have to and not regularly in their life
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yep, we speak Dutch fluently!
MissionLow122@reddit
Very interesting
ledledripstick@reddit
PSA incoming:
One thing I found out about the Netherlands the hard way is that the sun here shines at a very low angle versus direct (as in Italy) - so your vitamin D levels here (affecting mood/energy and sense of wellbeing) are WAAAAY lower here and most doctors here will recommend a supplement of vitamin D taken daily.
Comunque In bocca al lupo con tua nuova vita!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We've been taking vitamin D in high doses for years next to antidepressants. Didn't really help ;)
Grazie e altrettanto!
InevitableAd3164@reddit
Is not vitamin D lol, is really the place itself. My company is Italian and there is some warm from italians that you completely don’t find it in Netherlands.
Netherlands is a good place and as Portuguese I feel exactly the same way even with friends here. I am thinking going back, the money is not worth it
Numerous-Treat960@reddit
What's your company! Haha
fastpn@reddit
Just out of curiosity... You managed to get antidepressants prescribed? In the Netherlands?!
the-fact-fairy@reddit
My experience is they'll easily throw them at you just to be done with dealing with you. No check to see which one might be best for you. I ended up having lasting health issues because my old huisarts prescribed ones which weren't right for me.
TopNotchDude@reddit
I know it affects people differently but may I ask which ones you didn't like? back in the day I was given alprazolam and hated it lol
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
I can't complain about psychiatric care
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
Smoke some pakalolo occasionally, that helps more than antidepressants, lol.
ledledripstick@reddit
I guessed that you tried all avenues! But just in case others haven't - I wanted to add that PSA for them.
Stoppels@reddit
They've removed vitamin D out of the basic healthcare package in recent years, which helped make life more expensive for people who aren't white, so there's that.
nevadalavida@reddit
The lack of warmth from the people and nature is why I left, too.
simple_explorer1@reddit
i think the dutch are very friendly. what went wrong?
nevadalavida@reddit
I think the Dutch are brilliant, high-quality people. Quite likely the best, most productive, healthy, rational, reasoned, intelligent, and efficient society on earth. Even their government bureaucracy is breathtakingly modern and streamlined. Absolutely love them. And there are definitely some very friendly Dutch people out there, I've met them too!
But broadly speaking, on average, their personality tends to be quite serious, literal, logical, and deadpan. Even their brutal honesty, while appreciated for lack of social game-playing, can also be rough. I warmly refer to it as "the land of the aspies" lol.
Nothing wrong with these traits, but I prefer routinely warm and bubbly people with a bit more charisma. People who laugh and smile easily and authentically. A little less serious, more carefree.
It's funny how it's a trade-off. Because you'll find that warmth along the Mediterranean (I'm in Spain these days) but their bureaucracy is a nightmare, and they're a "less productive" people, to put it in a kind way.
Side note that the American nonsense about Tylenol causing autism (immediately debunked ofc) gave me a chuckle, as the Dutch are known to prescribe paracetamol for every ailment - it's a meme, at this point. Maybe there's something to that after all, lol. (Joking of course!)
simple_explorer1@reddit
thanks for the elaborate reply. The "easygoing", self deprecating humor, having a good laugh - even at your own expense and welcoming attitude is not something that is culturally possible in most of the northern western EU except Ireland and Scotland. Americans are probably the most friendly and outgoing people in the western world though.
These traits are mostly common in developing countries though, which is an irony
Giraffe_Extension@reddit
Haha, interesting parallels to my own life. I’m a Japanese/US dual citizen and just finished a decade of living in Tokyo, to return to a college town in the US. I missed the openness and spontaneity of American people that I just didn’t get in Japan’s respect-politeness culture. Japan is amazing and there’s no city like Tokyo, truly. Glad to spend some formative years there. But yeah, priorities change and you just have to honor that.
denniszen@reddit
And I thought Japan didn’t allow dual citizenship? You mean permanent resident in Japan?
Giraffe_Extension@reddit
Japan doesn't technically allow dual citizenship, you are correct. That said, there are cases (like me) that if you have inherited it from a Japanese parent, as opposed to naturalizing later, bureaucracy more often than not looks the other way. I've been going between the US and Japan with both passports for 30 years at this point and nothing has happebed *shrug*
Alostcord@reddit
Lots of growth in this post. Brings to mind this poem:
I wish you enough
I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright. I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun even more. I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive and everlasting. I wish you enough pain so that even the smallest of joys in life may appear bigger. I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting. I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess. I wish you enough hellos to get you through the final goodbye.
grant837@reddit
I have been here for 40 years (from the US), but my wife is Dutch. I feel what you say, but my family is more important. I wont be leaving.
acknb89@reddit
At least your still in Europe and can visit easily. Try moving back to Australia from the US and contemplating the conundrums that fall with it
simple_explorer1@reddit
But isn't AU the best country in the world? Why would you contemplate going anywhere once you are in the best the world has to offer?
acknb89@reddit
lol I mean that’s a completely subjective matter
simple_explorer1@reddit
But what do you think? that's why i asked
No-Bowl-5134@reddit
hope you find what you're looking for. i've lived in a lot of places, met tons of people, lost touch with most of them..
when i came back home i didn't feel like i belong there anymore...people have a very provincial mindset..idk, hard to explain..
when you see the whole world, it's hard to settle...but i guess that's a privilege we have.
simple_explorer1@reddit
Honestly, that may seem "privilege" but it leads to a lonely road ahead.
In the end people who have too many options and struggle to settle are the ones most likely to struggle bonding with other people or have deep sense of community. Those people lack the support system and deep relations to anyone. As you grow older a sense of community and sense of belonging is very important because this lifestyle is simply not sustainable.
Having friends, family, laugh and people who care for you is very hard to achieve. Living a lonely life by changing countries constantly seldom leads to a satisfying life and once you grow older, you need that one place where you can belong.
No_Mushroom8895@reddit
Reading this, I realise that somebody has just described my life in NL so far.
I have been here for eight years, and I constantly feel a sense of drain. Friendships are very "practical", healthcare is abysmal, work is great but tiring. My wife joined me about three years back, and she has been showing similar symptoms too.
Good for you to move back to your place, mate. I can't wait to move back to mine.
simple_explorer1@reddit
sounds grim
bettodiaz86@reddit
I am leaving NL but due to layoff and not finding a job that sponsors me for the visa. Actually I love it here, and I did not have the same experience as many expats in the NL. I am moving to Spain so I don't have to leave the EU(I am doing as much as I can to not go back to Latam). I will surely miss Haarlem(my home) and many other things here :(
simple_explorer1@reddit
Sorry to hear that. But, isn't job protection higher in NL that it is not easy to fire people?
Fickle_Syrup@reddit
I think everything you are describing is a shared experience for southern Europeans moving to northern Europe.
As a a Spaniard living in the UK I moved back for a lot of the same reasons. I would say you guys have earned this: once you have built a solid career in northern Europe, work life in Southern Europe becomes easier (although obviously not as good as there). For what it's worth, I can confirm the move has worked beautifully for me and my wife.
PS: Holy shit are you a poet? Your writing is beautiful.
niloxx@reddit
Fellow Spaniard in Ireland here. How would you say your life has improved since you moved back to Spain, and was it all as you expected it to be? I sometimes think I would not fit in Spanish society anymore after a decade abroad. Even my accent is different now.
Fickle_Syrup@reddit
Honestly it's pretty much what I wanted it to be.
I moved back with my savings, bought myself a flat, had a kid and I'm now happily living in Barcelona. I don't think I could have done this if I had never left to begin with.
Equally, I could never have afforded a flat in London and childcare is prohibitively expensive there.
The benefits:
Financially, I am better off than in the UK. Before moving, I found a decent job in ES (not a great job, just a job. Not too bad either). My wife also found a role after 6 months (although she also started preparing from before moving).
The weather is better. My friends and family are around. People in general are nicer. Things are more affordable.
But most importantly: I am no longer an immigrant / foreigner. I find it tough to articulate this feeling, but it's amazing to be surrounded by my people and not having to second guess everything. To me, this is endlessly valuable. This is my home. When you are an immigrant, you are always beholden to the goodwill of the people accepting you in their country, and you are taking care to be a good guest. Also in the UK, despite people being pleasant enough, I always felt like an outsider (because let's face it, as a foreigner, you are). Here, I don't have this mental division of "me" vs "them". It's my home, I am surrounded by my people, we share a culture and history in common, and that's that.
Another factor to be considered is that people around the globe generally prefer their own, and tend to help each other: if you factor in how often I was discriminated against in the UK vs here in ES, it actually makes up for a lot of the negatives.
Also re what you said about being changed after 10 years abroad: yeah, I get that. Although I have never found that to be a problem. I generally like Spanish people. Me and the average Spaniard have our obvious cultural differences (eg in our life priorities, ambition). But I don't need to be friends with everyone. I'm just living my life, working in a global corporation and freely choose who I associate with.
The only real negative in my opinion is that the economy is slower. And since everyone and their mother wants to move to ES, competition for jobs here is insane. It took me a literal two years of active searching to find another job after the initial one I mentioned (that being said, this is because I refused to compromise and the role I have now is truly excellent).
simple_explorer1@reddit
the UK is a tough place socially as a foreigner
astoryfromlandandsea@reddit
It’s classic ChatGPT slop lol. Very lazy.
Fickle_Syrup@reddit
Eh, I don't care too much about it being GPT generated
But I must admit I am dismayed at me not having noticed myself
Next thing you know I'll fall for a fucking scam
giftools@reddit
How can you say you don't care and end with that sentence
SamMerlini@reddit
It's way too organised and well-structured. But to be honest, it's very difficult to detect nowadays
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Great to hear you're doing well in Spain! No, I am not a poet. I am good at making self-reflections and asking chatgpt to make them understandable to the masses. I suck at writing.
Due_Elephant_1535@reddit
You aged 11 years and feel more fatigued these days and blame the lack of mountains and trails, I don't think you had much self reflection done on this subject.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes, my hobbies depend on nice landscapes. Not being able to partake in”properly” has had a big effect on me, besides the other points.
HorseApprehensive346@reddit
I find myself feeling the same regarding the UK. I moved here (I am Greek btw) and it was gloomy and social life was challenging but my sector was hiring left and right and healthcare was good. Less than a decade later the healthcare is incredibly bad, to the point I'm afraid , and the job market is awful while racism is becoming a huge issue. The question is where to go next I guess.
simple_explorer1@reddit
For you it IS Australia. Australia has the biggest greek community in the whole world outside Greece. It is a straight choice for you.
Appropriate-Diver758@reddit
Been in London UK since 2007 and miss my home town of Sydney Australia. Primarily due to the weather and outdoors lifestyle but love London for the career opportunities and being so cheap to travel almost everywhere (except inside the UK lol).
The terrible weather puts me off being outdoors in my lifestyle here.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
At least you don’t have funnel webs or taipans in London 🤣
simple_explorer1@reddit
this
SemperEgor@reddit
There is almost no weather that would prevent you from enjoying the outdoors. You are just need to up your outdoorsy-game!
Scared_Coffee_592@reddit
I agree with the healthcare as Dutchie I had some really bad mental issues during my master which made me quit. There is basically no way for me to get any help in a normal time span. They honestly rather have you kill yourself than make it easier to get help. It’s insane for a first world country
ArdDC@reddit
Dude. You just forgot to take your vitamin D...
LoStraniero89@reddit
I get a lot of what you wrote. Many expats feel the Netherlands is a great country, but not always the right one for them long-term.
I don’t know where you were living, but the experience can be quite different in Maastricht. South Limburg has hills, forests, winding roads and a warmer, more “Burgundian” culture that feels almost Belgian or French. Some people who struggle with the flatness or the reserved vibe of the north actually feel much better here.
But the bigger things you mention — the long dark winters, the healthcare system, high costs, and being far from family. Those don’t really change depending on the city. And if a place steadily drains your energy, that’s something you can’t fix by changing neighbourhoods.
Your decision makes perfect sense. A country can be good and still not fit who you’ve become.
NewManufacturer1743@reddit
Home is where the heart is! Good luck!
Priyom-AskEOR@reddit
This is beautifully written, and it makes complete sense. Sometimes a place can be good to you and still stop feeling like “home.” It sounds like you listened to yourselves, understood what you truly need, and made a choice that aligns with your life now. Wishing you both a smooth transition and a return to the kind of energy and connection you’ve been missing.
Cautious_Try507@reddit
Seen already lots of “same here” comment but here is an another one. Been in this country for 5 years but what you wrote down is 100% correct. The really deal breaker is how shitty the healthcare in this country is and you have to pay 150is euros per month. I have no problem paying the insurance but if I am not getting any service what the fuck am I paying for?! Been looking for a better option already for a while…
Antoliks@reddit
I would write exactly the same post. I can relate to this. I would go back to Poland but my wife is Dutch and part of my family also lives here in the Netherlands. I miss the realness here. It feels “transactional” if you know what I mean
bunnyhop8576@reddit
That’s well said
xdarkshinex@reddit
I wish I was writing this. I envy you. Congratulations!
My problem with the Netherlands as a country is that you pay a high price (both literally and figuratively), but get little or nothing in return to make you happy. You've already mentioned the biggest problems.
My biggest problem is the lack of space, peace and quiet, no wild nature and no true winters. I also don't feel safe here, there are so many weird folks around.
About healthcare... I've discovered I have stage 2 hypertension. Went to the doctor here. They did a blood and urine test, the results came back normal. I don't eat much sugar, smoke or drink. What did the doctor say? You need to relax more and maybe change your job. They refused to prescribe medication, even temporarily. We're talking stage 2 hypertension here, which runs in my family, and I was just sent away to "relax".
_thelovedokter@reddit
Yes, I want to leav NL to
OpiumOpossum@reddit
Sounds like Vitamin D deficiency
moham225@reddit
I'm in the UK London feel the exact same way
VVordsmith@reddit
Thank you for sharing. As sad as it is to see a place you once enjoyed change into a place that no longer provides you with all the qualities of living you expect; I appreciate the awareness of what makes you happy and the courage to move where those needs will be met. I hope you find Italy fulfilling once again.
Uccio94@reddit
Ciao OP! VIvo anche io in Olanda, ti posso scrivere per consigli sulla scelta da fare? Odio anche io il paese per alcune cose, ma non so da dove iniziare.
KitchenBuy7821@reddit
Agreed. Netherlands has become too expensive over the past 5 years to live. And the lack of mountains definitely is a big miss. But trust me the most important part is the warmth and connection. Dutch people are cold and individualistic in general.
Commander-Yu-Gi-Oh@reddit
Coming from a Mediterranean culture is certainly a change of wings! Northern Europe isn't as southern Europe is with regard to weather, food, and social dynamics. I felt the same in Germany, and I'm kinda glad I left.
giftools@reddit
It just depends on how you were brought up. I would be miserable living in Mediterranean culture tbh. Just leave me alone.
Commander-Yu-Gi-Oh@reddit
True! Depends on your preference. I noticed the other way around is also true (when people from Northern Europe go to the South), they can't handle the social dynamics, warmth, friendliness, etc., and consider it a breach of privacy and do want to be left alone, hahahahahaha.
Roodditor@reddit
Yeah, I've noticed that the expats that struggle in north-western Europe the most are those from southern cultures where society is more open and "warm". The lack of sunshine also doesn't help.
storm_borm@reddit
Indeed. I’m from the UK and while I can sympathise with people used to different climates, I sometimes feel people exaggerate how bad the Dutch weather is. It’s likely my own bias.
I like sunny weather, but I would hate to live somewhere with constant sunshine. There’s something soothing about a grey sky. I also love winter.
TheGuy839@reddit
Let me assure you there is 0 exaggeration. You were just born into cloudy country and you like it. For more southern people it feels like you are always depressed state.
throwaway7474829911@reddit
For people who actually believe the Netherlands has an horrific healthcare system, please don’t draw conclusions based on anecdotes on Reddit. Most public healthcare systems are worse than NL. The NL has low preventable death rates and relatively good wait times.
The OECD, Commonwealth fund, and other studies consistently rank the Dutch healthcare system top 10 or even top 3 in the world. This includes comparisons of preventative healthcare measured as preventable causes of death.
panelakpascal@reddit
This is really interesting, thanks for sharing. Can I ask how the healthcare situation is different in Italy?
Good luck with the move :-)
spany14@reddit
Are you still in same jobs from NL and will be doing them remote?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes; that's the main reason why this move is possible.
Zemelaar@reddit
That means you won’t be leaving NL, but taking it with you. Please give NL props for that ❤️🔥the sun always shines, even on cloudy days
spany14@reddit
I agree. Not a lot of people get this opportunity. In fact, it's common now to be asked to come to the office. There should have been more appreciation that they got this, apart from one line. And they are def connected to NL even if they move because of the job.
But that is only my opinion. We are all different.
Interesting-Rush780@reddit
I feel just like this, but unfortunately I was born here and can't go to any other country. :(
Saffa_374@reddit
Would you agree that the fresh food bought in supermarkets do not have any sustenance? We live in the UK and I've thought for a while the food we buy is tasteless but are the fruit and veg actually giving us any benefits.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
TBH stuff looks unhealthy in supermarkets. Veggies are often rotten; meat is often either watery or discoloured... you can find better stuff in markets for example
Kundera42@reddit
I lived here for 43 years, veggies in the supermarket are not often rotten and if they would be, you can always ask for refund or new. I agree with some of your points in the OP but this is just complete BS. You need to buy stuff that is in season. If it is, the quality is good and origin is NL. This is the same on the markets. I would not say quality on the market is that much higher of at all.
Solidhippo@reddit
People buy tomatoes during winter In a country that's sun-starved in summer and wonder why it tastes watery. I'm not one to defend Dutch food culture, but the quality of ingredients is generally good if they are in season (and do well in the climate).
Consistent_Salad6137@reddit
Dutch tomatoes are just as bad in the summer too, unless you grow your own. People here apparently like them that way.
mytradingacc@reddit
It's just a circlejerk at this point, quality of dutch produce and food is just fine.
dedeurbel@reddit
The Netherlands has notoriously bad/tasteless food quality in the supermarkets. The actual good products from Dutch agriculture are generally sold abroad.
MaxGaav@reddit
Exactly. Go to Germany and everything is a lot better in quality (and price).
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
I know just one Gouda Cheese
Hazel1928@reddit
I live in Pennsylvania. Right now it’s dark from 5:30 PM -7 AM. That’s really hard. I have a friend who is from Uganda. She says the dark is harder than the cold. I’m from Mississippi and I agree. I’m not sure exactly hos long the darkness is in winter in Mississippi, but I know it’s shorter than in PA. But I think living at the equator with 12 hours of light and 12 hours of darkness year round would be ideal.
Bfor200@reddit
That's still about 2.5h more daylight than in the Netherlands. It can sometimes be a bit depressing leaving home in the dark and coming home in the dark as well.
greaper007@reddit
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can take living anywhere for a decade. I've been in Portugal for 5 years now, it's great, but I'm getting itchy feet. I moved all over the US when I lived there.
Maybe living in one place anywhere just gets old. It's like watching a movie over and over again, you need something new every few years.
Vind-@reddit
I live in Italy. I can’t wait to get the fuck out of here.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Understandable; this is possible for us because of remote jobs. Life in the rest of Europe isn't that much better though.
Bfor200@reddit
Isn't Italy in a particularly bad spot in the EU due to 20+ years of stagnant wages?
atomic_wonder@reddit
A lot of what you wrote resonated with me . I left amsterdam because after 10 years it becomes very samey. The same affluent income levels means samey samey. Everything is gezellig which is great but it’s just gezellig. The Dutch are famous for design but it got to the point where everything was overly designed . Even the visual landscape of the city, Shops , signs , branding all had the same stamp of Dutch design , most of the time beautiful but lacking diversity and I think that encapsulates the expat life in amsterdam.Everybody seems very pleasantly happy all the time which is just pure strange and friendships and interactions always seem temporary and lack something deeper. I left because I wanted to be exposed to the extremes again, a city that shows its real warts and all .
Bfor200@reddit
Well to be fair Amsterdam is mostly a tourist and expat disneyland
SDV01@reddit
You clearly never left De Pijp. Nothing feels polished - or Dutch - on Bijlmerplein or Plein 40-45.
atomic_wonder@reddit
Thats a very silly thing to say .
SellSideShort@reddit
The feeling not well thing is very interesting. My wife and I live in Switzerland and have been here 8 years now and have this same exact feeling, we talk about it nearly every week now. We’ve noticed this feeling goes away after a few days of being in the US or Italy for example (the two places we have vacationed in the last two years). Even when we go up to the mountains here to ski, we still have this feeling. Any idea as to what could be the root cause of such a thing? The drinking water? The air? Something else? The sperm count on Swiss men has been decreasing substantially and health officials have no idea what’s causing it, I would tend to think that whatever it is causing people to feel unwell is likely the same underlining thing causing this low sperm count. Life in Switzerland and especially Zurich has many parallels to the Netherlands as I understand it (have two Dutch friends here), perhaps the root cause is the same?
theLiddle@reddit
No one cares
Casartelli@reddit
Im Dutch and the low battery feeling is def a thing. Even for us :) Im lucky to be able to travel to the Caribbean and Middle East during dec - Feb. We literally say ‘to recharge the battery’. During these months we can easily have a full week without any sun. And if there is sun, it’s just for an hour or two and it’s very weak.
hobomaniaking@reddit
I concur with everything you’ve written but I still would chose the NL for now. You’re lucky your home land in Italy. I wish my home country was 10% as good as Italy is.
batboxx@reddit
Oh I’m so excited for you! I’m Italian and my fiancé is Greek, we lived 5 years in the Netherlands and just moved back to Greece a week ago, we could not get out of the Netherlands fast enough! That place like you said has a few positives but they are by FAR outweighed by all the negative aspects, I’m never moving north again ! And to think NL is not that north makes me shudder at what life is probably like higher, it definitely turned us away from any excitement about Northern Europe that’s for sure.
tvankuyk@reddit
sounds like my life in germany :(
DillianBuckets@reddit
Honestly I think you really hit the nail on the head. I've been here in NL 10 years this year. I have great friends, a job with great colleagues, I enjoy cycling around the polders or up along the sea. Generally everything is pretty good. But I think that is it, it's all pretty good but it always feels like something is missing a little.
Aside from healthcare which is by the by, NL is starting to become a place that I'm simply priced out of. Not to say anywhere will be easier, but a lot of what you put it never seems to materialise from the other side. I mean, they're even putting up train ticket prices again in the new year, because it's a private company and the government won't intervene.
The big thing though, is that when I went through a break up at the beginning of 2025 I said to myself that I'm glad that it happened in spring, rather than winter, as I don't know what I would do, simply because it can be so miserable in the cold and dark (and this is from someone who is from the north of the UK). I'm taking time this year to see if I want to move on to somewhere else.
Sorry this is long, but just wanted to say thank OP. It's been so useful to read put it so succinctly.
nikaloz1@reddit
Can I go there instead of that guy ?
giftools@reddit
Yes please if you don't cry about the place as much
nikaloz1@reddit
I promise I will not say anything bad about the Netherlands, All the Dutch people I met were nice decent people.
Where do I sign up ? :)
etk1108@reddit
About the health care:
No its not perfect, far from, and I wish we had more preventative care.
But also people complaining about it are usually people with money, because in most countries where they can go to better specialists and private hospitals it’s unaffordable for most people. It’s a very privileged standpoint to write from.
At least if you go to a GP here no one has to pay
saidhim@reddit
Sounds like you need some sunshine and great Italian food among other things mentioned!
The thing that keeps my friend positive about the Netherlands weather is, it’s not as bad as England 😂
Tunameltbounty@reddit
Clearly well thought through. Well written as well. Hope your wife will overcome the health issues caused by our embarrassingly bad and expensive healthcare system.
giftools@reddit
It's a chat gpt post
faltdubh@reddit
Such a well written post. I wish you well for the future. Home is where the heart is.
I'm Scottish in a Nordic country and can really relate to your post. I've been to Spain and Malta this year, and think for a while that many Scots and Irish fit in Southern European more than the north at times. The life's too short, have a laugh, rather than the rigid, almost reclusive nature of Benelux/Northen Europe.
God bless and you should write books or stories, really enjoyable style of writing .
giftools@reddit
Dude it's a chat gpt post
Fearless-Position-56@reddit
carissimo, Italiano anche io da 9 anni in Olanda. What I add? In these 9 years i saw a lito of things and the Netherlands is not paradise. It was 20-25 years ago, but not now.
Social care is simply not existing, having kids is just a way for the gov to tax you more, our to put on your shoulders costs they do not want to carry on. On top of it, healthcare is just not existing: Young generations of doctors simply consider patients like customers at the bakery… But if i see what happens in Italy i would think 3 times before moving back.
And for the record: Dutch people do not have many friends as well. This is the way they are, that’s it
etk1108@reddit
Is 15 friends not enough 😅
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
All true. We did think about moving back for over 2 years. We think the pros outweigh the cons at this time. It probably won't be forever.
ProfessionalHot2421@reddit
I have lived in the NL, I understand you're experience. Even though you're right about the NL health care system, the Italian one is certainly not much better, albeit free. The doctors only know how to give you cortisone and/or antibiotics for any problem you cone to them with. You'll be on long waiting lists for getting any type of exam, usually months. The overall quality is horrific if you are used to the Swiss or German system. But compared to the Dutch health care system, it might be an improvement overall. Good luck and the best!
BadBubbly9679@reddit
All foreigners in the world want to live here and they all complain as soon as they get off the plane.
giftools@reddit
"I left home and it's not the same as home here I want to go back home"
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
That’s proper inburgering!
LearyBlaine@reddit
That’s a very thoughtfully written post! Thanks very much for such a balanced and insightful essay.
Now to answer your question. For myself, as I get older, I feel that it doesn’t really matter where I live. I live my life “inside my own head”. I’ve lived around the world for many years now, so I’m accustomed to maintaining long distance relationships with my family and closest friends. So, wherever I happen to reside, I need/want only (a) a comfortable place to lay my head and have a few personal items, (b) reasonable access to a variety of food, (c) freedom to move about as I wish, and (d) a few neighborhood acquaintances to say Hello to.
That’s it. And I can get those things anywhere.
Oh, and there’s one more big need/want: beauty. It can be mountains, the sea (we have both of those here), gorgeous valleys, rolling hills … I don’t care WHAT it is. But there’s got to be beauty around.
And, again, I generally discover that I can find beauty pretty much anywhere. (Though I did live in NL for a year, decades ago, and my recollection pretty much matches your observations.)
So I don’t know. I can’t necessarily echo your perspective. Doesn’t matter, though. It’s perfectly fine for there to be multiple perspectives. The bottom line is that you’ve tuned-in to this Feeling. You’ve “chewed on it” a bit. You’ve tested it with Thinking — measuring and comparing, ranking and sorting. And you’ve come to this conclusion. So trust it! Do what you need to do!
Life is more a series of short stories than a novel. Start the next adventure!
OK-Smurf-77@reddit
OP, you’re absolutely spot on — I couldn’t have expressed it better myself. I think many of us feel exactly the same way. It becomes even more complex when you come from a country like yours- Great weather, beautiful landscape, strong social circles, food being not only functional but cultural (and fantastic!).
My theory is that the Netherlands being a very individualistic society makes people like you (and like us) feel unwell. You can have the best job and the most promising career, but without a (for us) healthy social circle, it’s hard to thrive. And if you come from a place where family and social bonds are much stronger, living here can be especially challenging. Even when you put in effort — making friends, learning the language — Dutch friends can still feel distant. Something as simple as planning a dinner might have to be scheduled months in advance because they just operate differently. Calling a Dutch friend to ask if you can come over because you need to talk? Sending a message to grab a beer tonight because you have good news and want to celebrate? That’s almost unheard of here. The rest you summarized wonderfully.
Wishing you and your family back home all the best.
giftools@reddit
GPT comment replying to GPT posts. Bunch of losers
giftools@reddit
So you're saying I should moved to the Netherlands to avoid constant family gatherings? Sign me the fuck up
dbobby320@reddit
very gpt
root_admin_system@reddit
Struggle to believe that post was written without AI - not a single grammatical error. Also brand new Reddit account... Baiting?
chrisb5583@reddit
I hope you can recognize that returning to your home country when it’s your choice and on your terms is a big luxury. Most expats don’t have their journey end this way. Many are sent back when the assignment ends and a lot of forced back when something happens with the local job. I hope my expat journey ends as my choice. 5.5 years in Tokyo, 3.5 years in Singapore… who knows how it ends.
Agitated_Knee_309@reddit
My only problem with the Netherlands are two: the bland food culture and EXPENSIVE HOUSING.
Oh my goodness, I could go on for days on the second problem. It was so horrible. The amount of competition for rents going as high as €2000 per month unprovoked meanwhile your salary every month could be €2500. Also it made no sense how gas ⛽ is expensive as well but right across the German and Belgian border is was ridiculously cheaper.
I agree with OP...the country is overcrowded 😂
Business_Tie8514@reddit
The truth is that foreigners are sometimes seen as difficult in the Dutch healthcare system. Many people think that foreigners use healthcare too often and visit the doctor for small problems. Because of this, foreigners may feel that the healthcare in the Netherlands is not good enough.
Late_Field_1790@reddit
Wow very similar to the German playbook (besides probably mountains in the southern part) Best of luck at home !
sherpes@reddit
The denied medical referrals: who denied them?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
GPs. For example, they don't believe in yearly checkups at the gynecologist - the GP said "it's not like the southern countries here".
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
I would say that your GP is “somewhat racist”
LannisterTarth@reddit
Because GP’s get a lot of gyno training, there is no benefit to go to a gyno without complainta. A gynecologist in the Netherlands is nog traines to do check ups because they are not nessicary. What do you expext them to find? For cervical cancer there is the bevolkingsonderzoek and if you have issues ask your GP
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
A bevolkingsonderzoek where you need to take the sample yourself!!!
LannisterTarth@reddit
Yes, what’s the problem with that? And if you are so uncomfertable with your own vagina you can still go to the GP to get the doktersassistent to do it for you. There is no reason a gyno should do this, it’s a waste of their time
Single-Chair-9052@reddit
Meanwhile in Poland they won’t prescribe you more birth control if you didn’t have a yearly check-ups.
Valuable_Echo2043@reddit
Ha yeah, that was the first thing my (women) friends in Poland said to me: "get that gynecologist appointment set up".
sherpes@reddit
In the USA, it’s the private commercial for profit health insurance that denies a procedure. It’s now driven by AI, using data sets
hudibrastic@reddit
Hmm… GP I guess
Fireflykoala@reddit
I think that low battery thing is part of aging. I'm definitely feeling here in my US town/home though have a relatively low stress lifestyle and gorgeous nature all around. I've noticed this fatigue with crowds, the incessant chatter and energy of youth, competition anywhere including the workplace, bureaucracy and non-sensical rules, and dealing with all the minutiae of daily life. Time for nature, quiet and reflection does become more important, and access to healthcare becomes esstential.
cyberizzy@reddit
It's like you read my mind. I'm born Dutch and always had the feeling the pressure of weather-/social related buzzkills. Not to speak the mediocracy op people and services in the Netherlands. It's like you have find the people or businesses that strive for perfection and do care about their jobs. Healthcare but also governmental agencies have the same thing. You'd be lucky to get someone that tries to make some effort. I won't state that everyone is like that, i still encounter some people that give you hope, but mostly the quality is like in Dutch "zesjes cultuur" (mediocre). To sum it up, the Netherlands lets you pay top dollars (euros) for a mediocre quality or service.
LesnBOS@reddit
He is moving to Italy not the US! Who would want to move here now?
Repulsive_Side2492@reddit
Complaining is core to Dutch culture. It’s a sign of wel-being 😝
Exciting-Ad6897@reddit
It’s because you don’t know the French 🇫🇷
Ok-Interest6572@reddit
You copy pasted our thoughts, my family is living Czech republic for good. Can't believe we were living the same life. Good look 😊
Ok-Seesaw-1883@reddit
Good perspective, fair analysis. Wishing you all the best in Italy!
Logical_Plane_3905@reddit
Well said
itsjujutsu@reddit
Sounds like living in paris lol (i live in paris)
bcatch88@reddit
this is very recognisable as well for dutch people who Travel
tyrspawn@reddit
I know exactly how you feel..it's why I'm always bewildered when people are confused why I prefer Munich over Netherlands, London or Ireland. I can't stand flat places with the same dreadful weather and nothing to do in nature. In Munich I can enjoy the mountains every weekend and this makes a massive difference to quality of life, I don't care if there's supposedly better jobs in those places, not worth it.
DueLoan685@reddit
I really wish I could leave that easyu
Cold-Bathroom-8329@reddit
Wow, ChatGPT left the Netherlands?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It did!
West-Ambition-322@reddit
Nicely written, nicely thought. I live in Germany and I think I will never come back, but I was emigrating very late. If I ever will come back, this post will inspire me. But it will not happen
Chany_07@reddit
We lived in the UK before and honestly even there the weather is better the people are more welcome and say what you want about food. At least there's some poison behind it.
Fantastic job so we won't go back for a while but it sucks and I lived in 5 other countries before this!!!!
Professional_Cash737@reddit
Bentornati!!! :) siete una risorsa importante x il paese
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Mancavamo a Giorgia, che è una donna, madre, italiana, cristiana. E nessuno glielo può togliere!
Professional_Cash737@reddit
?! Scusami? No mancate al paese, che è in calo demografico perchè no figli e mega emigrazione. Anche io ero expat e sono contento di essere tornato :)
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Certo, si fa per goliardia!
Professional_Cash737@reddit
Bel nick comunque ;)
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Grazie, preso ispirazione dai Prophilax!
Connect-Dragonfruit8@reddit
I am an expat in flanders from Turkey and even though the government and economy sucks in Turkey I am also thinking of going back. I feel so dull here.
HotMany3874@reddit
Wow. Is healthcare good anywhere? I'm live in the U.S. (born here). There is so much messed up here now. Healhcare is not affordable. Guns everywhere. Whole groups of people denied and in danger simply because they are different.
EaseWaste5336@reddit
I’m also from a mediterranean country and I feel exactly the same in the Netherlands. Still figuring out how to move back to my own country. Will probably have to re-skill first and land a remote working arrangement as my country’s job market sucks.
rEdempti90n@reddit
Too much 5G radiation perhaps ? Ever thought of that ?
bfkill@reddit
is this even a thing?
Savings-Gate-456@reddit
No.
Squirrel_McNutz@reddit
I’ve thought of that before too. Electrosmog & pollution
EaseWaste5336@reddit
I have, but what can I do about it?
Lucky_Researcher_@reddit
Grass isn’t always greener something something
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Indeed, but I'd rather cry in the mountains than in a 80 years old house with crooked walls.
Lucky_Researcher_@reddit
We tend to underestimate how much our country is part of our DNA. The nature, light, air, food, cityscapes, language, music etc. And some people struggle because of this when moving abroad. They blame the new country for failing them and think that is the reason living abroad isn’t working for them, when in fact it is because their surroundings clash with their body, mind and soul. I not saying this is the case with you, but I have seen it with others.
There are many places in the world that I love, but not as much as my home country. I do not regret moving back home after more than a decade abroad.
Repulsive_Side2492@reddit
That’s what you get when all you’re coming for is the money. Cultural and geographical differences are REAL.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Absolutely!
absorbscroissants@reddit
If there's any country in the world where the walls aren't crooked, it would be the Netherlands.
You say you're from Italy, have you ever looked at a building there?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes and they're very good and comfortable!
throwaway3750000@reddit
yea, OP just now sounds now how they sounded when they left Italy. The same issues will come up after some time in Italy again, but just in another color. He is running after something which doesn't exist: the perfect fairy tale country which is only built in his mind.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Absolutely; we will have issues in Italy too. Everything is temporary. If you read the post however, you'll notice I said this upfront.
universal_god_oxy@reddit
According to gptzero.me - this text is 99% AI generated.
nonula@reddit
I was wondering about how an “Italian” wrote such polished English. Then again, GPTZero can sometimes perceive text that has been perfected by AI (using Grammarly, for instance) as having been 100% AI-generated.
exotickiller1771@reddit
The OP did admit to using AI to translate their text from Italian to English.
nonula@reddit
Ah, I missed that. Thank you. For sure that kind of thing will get flagged by GPTZero, unfortunately.
quitodbq@reddit
Profile says no posts
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes I sad it below too
Itchy-Buyer-8359@reddit
That was a great read. Thanks for sharing- you certainly have a way to self-reflect and express yourself
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you! Mostly good in self-reflection and making a draft of my thoughts. ChatGPT helps making my thoughts comprehensible by the masses.
Mercredee@reddit
I was wondering how your English was so good as an Italian living in Netherlands, but solid post regardless 😉
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
No, a-me speak-a a-like tis normally Mario!! Mamma mia!!
Mercredee@reddit
Tbf 95% of native English speakers wouldn’t naturally produce something of that polished quality
DonCortez1519@reddit
Thank God for AI.
I mean, without it how would we express ourselves satisfactorily to our public.
To the masses, that is.
flomon1@reddit
This is very interesting to read. I wish you all the best in Italy, and for what it’s worth: life is very curated and predictable here.
One thing strikes me -being a health professional- as interesting: the healthcare remarks. This truly is culturally and not quality. If foreigners go to hospitals, they generally demand everything, now, and that’s not what will happen. You will be examined, and only if you absolutely think you are about to die, and it looks like it, then it might be useful to do an extended exam. If not: some paracetamol. It’s absolutely ridiculous to pump someone full with painkillers, you can walk or sleep it off. The body can heal it self for almost anything. If after two weeks symptoms are persistent or worsened then it’s time to go back.
Bubbly-Airport-1737@reddit
i have a lot of questions about Italy but I can t open a chat with you
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Ask here!
Bubbly-Airport-1737@reddit
well
i usually don t have prejudice about people
but i noticed some interesting facts about different countries and about myself
long story short my partner was Sicillian, but she didn t really want to speak italian to me too much (also like a lot of southerners she was brought up in the north), her identity was a bit...dissociated maybe cause she said she invested a lot in learning Dutch
so we spoke mostly in Dutch/Flemish
most of the things i talk here about are a bit connected. We both speak Dutch at an academic level but bcs we don t speak it like the locals exactly,they won t accept us here.
Weird thing, when she started speaking some Romanian, I felt closer and she felt closer to me at times when I spoke in Italian to her but she told me she s feeling complexed because she feels I deeply feel that I wanted her to be from Romania, which is really not true, I actually fell in love with how dramatic and italian she was, i liked her for her italianness... but instinctually i felt a bit of a reflex to exclude her a tiny bit cause her Romanian was not the same as mine.... I hate myself for that but I noticed it, maybe it s in our DNA to do so. SHe said I look Italian and people in Greece or in the Mediteranean areas usually say that. I m not like other Romanians, I work in IT (but market is currently difficult), respect the rules and learn the language
but do you think people will try to scam me there? will they discriminate me bcs of my origins and language? or other reasons? are people usually aggressive in traffic especially in the south?
What about jobs? I saw sussidi di disoccupazione are low in Italy so if I lose my job and have loans to pay etc I'm vulnerable
are there decent IT jobs in italy? or they are given preferentially through connections that I ll never be able to build?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
> but do you think people will try to scam me there? will they discriminate me bcs of my origins and language? or other reasons? are people usually aggressive in traffic especially in the south?
Scams are everywhere in the world; haven't experienced anything specifically in Italy so far. They might discriminate you a bit, yes. Italy had an influx of romanian criminals in the '00s that tarnished the good name of the romanian people, unfortunately. I think the view has changed lately.
People drive like crap. Nothing surprising here.
> What about jobs? I saw sussidi di disoccupazione are low in Italy so if I lose my job and have loans to pay etc I'm vulnerable
are there decent IT jobs in italy? or they are given preferentially through connections that I ll never be able to build?
Jobs in Italy are mostly crap. They pay little and they'll treat you badly. But, there are plenty of international and remote IT companies there that top talent can leverage.
Outrageous-Witness84@reddit
I don't think I know you, but it was nice having you :)
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Bedankt voor de gezellige 11 jaren!
Canuck_Noob75@reddit
Sounds like Canada 🍁
Arizonal0ve@reddit
I hope you settle in beautifully at home ❤️ I understand the feeling. We’ve been in the USA for 12 years now and on one hand we are settled, we have a few close friends of which some are like family so we’re grateful. The list of things I love here is long and I feel quite American but at the same time i’m not and there’s always a longing for home. Which is The Netherlands for me and the UK for husband. Which is an issue…because yes we’ve outgrown those places too and certainly couldn’t do the winters anymore. So we’re often debating on moving at least closer to home perhaps Spain. We just haven’t decided yet.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Good luck!
Repulsive_Side2492@reddit
You sound home-sick brother. No need to throw this anecdotal criticism while leaving.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Just sharing my experience. It looks like many feel the same too!
lucrac200@reddit
Please save a cheap house in Calabria for me in about 15y.
If I make it to that age, I'll sell everything here and go to live my last days in the sun, eating 'nduja, drinking grappa, smoking and going fishing until I kick the bucket.
RijnBrugge@reddit
Sounds a lot like how I feel about Germany now, looking forward to returning to the Netherlands some time next year.
alt-right-del@reddit
Venit, uidit, profectus est
thist555@reddit
Some people just don't thrive away from their original climate, my husband is one of them and now that we are back to his childhood area he is a lot happier and healthier. It's not a drastic change but the sky is less gloomy here and there are distinct seasons. He doesn't get SAD here. Me, I can adapt to anywhere at all. We're not really people people so that is about the same everywhere. Don't feel bad about it, it is what it is.
StashRio@reddit
You have hit so many nails in the head I I don’t know where to begin with congratulating you for writing this. I feel the same, but my base is Belgium.. only difference for me is I actually make very very good money here, I resolved these problems you highlight by being out of the country for 4 to 5 months every year. But one day I will leave for good..
comments83820@reddit
Where in Italy are you returning to?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Near the alps
comments83820@reddit
nice
quasiwavelet@reddit
The almost whole year gloominess really puts me in depression. I tried to explain that to my dutch husband but he will never understand. I came from a tropical country and i miss being in the tropics. I barely go home because of responsibilities and that because my husband doesnt want to travel. Had i made a small business and let it thrive in my country, i think i would have been better off. Good that you have taken this decision albeit thoroughly thought off.
MidnightCrafty1063@reddit
Spanish here. I have been living abroad since September 2021. First in Germany until August 2024 and now here in NL. I kinda have the same feeling as you previously described.
In Germany, I never had the chance of making good friends. Even if I did (just one, and not German), he was married and living in another city.
Here in NL, for now I didn’t have the chance of making Dutch friends. I really miss my life back in Spain. I miss being with mi family, doing things on the weekends, and I miss my parents as well.
I don’t know, life in Spain is much more different than in the Netherlands. It just feels better due to the weather, culture, cuisine, etc…
And it’s a pity, because since a while ago Spain doesn’t feel like home anymore, nor Netherlands. So I am feeling a bit like homeless…
Part of the expat life I guess. I completely understand what OP mentioned. I have clear what I would like to do, and that is staying here and trying to build my life.
But to be honest, I am not that sure if I will stay for years here. For now (27), I am aiming to stay here till my 30s and then we will see.
Reasonable-Ask-4477@reddit
I have the same feeling too with the uk. I feel it doesn’t fit who I am As a person and since re connecting back to my routes I find it so hard to live with these situations here
isUKexactlyTsameasUS@reddit
That's why NL is in schengen, so we can do it all.
personally, never found it [stuff mentioned here] a prob,
cuz can so easily head elsewhere within the E.... but note we're CanAms
who escaped that political hellscape in the 80s / 90s and then skipped Brexitville in 2015 / 2017.
Toxigen18@reddit
I feel you man, I give up after 4 years due to medical issues and housing costs.
Netherlands It's an amazing experience and there are so many nice things there but it's also missing a lot of aspects of life, that are not material
HappyPartyBeaver@reddit
We actually experienced the exact same in Ireland (which is a gorgeous country ofc) and we are now moving to the Netherlands close to family. I think any expat/immigrant can resonate with your post. Best of luck in your new adventure!
TheMachinist1@reddit
And do people also have kids in the Netherlands? Because real living in a country is starting a family.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
No; we aren’t made for that.
Otherwise-Reward7813@reddit
Bye, go fuck yourself.
Formal-Ad3397@reddit
11 years later. Are you sure you aim to do the same activities you loved 11 years ago?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Yes, we do it every time we go back there! And we try to do them here but… it’s not the same
waudmasterwaudi@reddit
I returned back from Brazil to my home in the Austrian mountains. So I know what you are talking about. I only wonder about the things you say related to the Dutch health system. I thought they are super modern. Anyway - all the best - back at home !!!
DarkBert900@reddit
I think you gave my country an honest shot and decided it no longer fits your next chapter in live. Thanks for staying and I wish you nothing but the best. A lot of my countrymen (I feel) have similar issues with the Dutch system, but are none the wiser. You came here, tried to adapt and ultimately might be happier elsewhere.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Bedankt en tot de volgende!
Glittering_Crab_69@reddit
Okay bye now
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Doeeeiiii!
Stories-N-Magic@reddit
This is such a well articulated post! You have a gift for sure!
SO many things here are the exact same with the country I'm living in for the last decade. Wish i could go back home too, but home doesn't exist anymore. Having a young child also makes things infinitely mkre complicated.
I wish you well my friend. May you find what you're looking for. Maybe I'll see your update here in a couple years? A great one hopefully 🙂
Good luck!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
Longjumping_Desk_839@reddit
I very much identify with this. That feeling you mentioned ‘constant low battery’ feeling is exactly it. This is on me though- I’ve felt it since I arrived in the Netherlands decades ago but not making changes as my kids were born here and are very happy at school (not that they know any better as they’ve never lived else where).
PowerOfTheShihTzu@reddit
Welcome back home in good ole America , the country that never lets u down
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
America? USA! USA! Land of free and home of the brave!
VendrellPullo@reddit
Lol, I live here
The country is not “free” and the people are too jaded by “high cost of survival “ to really be “brave “
The need to keep your job for health insurance and housing has domesticated everyone into silence and submission
But OP good for you — I applaud and admire your decision
LesnBOS@reddit
He is moving to Italy not the US! Who would want to move here now?
PauPnK8@reddit
I feel like that living in Italy as a Mexican :(
LesnBOS@reddit
I mentioned above the Mexico is incredibly warm people wise, and while more corrupt, I feel like that corruption is equal access unlike in the US where only the wealthy can get what they want from politicians. In Mexico if you need for example, something inspected, you can just offer to take the govt inspector to the place with a stop for lunch to get a place (like a facility) inspected .
This is actually perfectly fair since while Mexico has a more comprehensive set of fed laws (like elder rights for which the US has no fed protection laws), they don’t fund their institutions making those laws impossible to enforce- asking people who make zero money to fund their own iob- gas, mileage, etc obviously results in zero inspections, etc. .
But, every person in Mexico can access those activities by helping out the people who aren’t funded to carry those out. And that amount of bribery goes all the way up for basically the same reasons- but everyone can at least try to solve that issue.
For example, in the US, the probate courts are for the most part corrupt- but only wealthy people connected to the courts, such as the judges, get to bribe/ “tip” the politicians to get things they want. We OTH can’t do anything but live within a rigged system.
free_ballin_llama@reddit
No country is perfect and you're not alone in this. I know it has happened to many Americans as well. They move there and after 2-3 years the allure fades away and they find themselves longing for the things they took for granted.
truffelmayo@reddit
The allure fades as they tend to romanticise Amsterdam to begin with!
free_ballin_llama@reddit
Agreed. I always am surprised when Americans that never left the states all of a sudden decide they're moving to the Netherlands and how many never have even visited prior.
truffelmayo@reddit
Probably as they’ve heard that Dutch isn’t required (in A’dam and the largest cities) and it’s the country culturally closest to the states but they can still brag to their friends that they live in Europe™.
free_ballin_llama@reddit
Yea but the people and social culture are very different. One of the most common complaints I see is how hard it is to make friends, meaningful friendships and they always feel like an outsider.
I do agree with you though other than that it is a major city and can live not knowing the language. I have been, it's very beautiful and I enjoy it, but yea I am self aware enough to know I wouldn't thrive there.
Sephass@reddit
I’ve been living in NL for the last 5 years and your points really resonate with me. I’m a relatively active person and like to walk a lot and spend time outside, but almost half of the year here is really uninspiring in terms of the weather / lack of sun / constant rain or drizzle.
I like how organised NL is and how most of the things function here, but I also feel drained and low mood during the autumn/winter seasons. Throughout the years I started to maximise the time outside of country in those months (one longer and one shorter break), but there’s only so much it can do for you, even if you keep most of your leave for that.
I will most likely stay for another couple of years, but I don’t think it’s sustainable for me long term to regularly fluctuate like this.
Head_Manufacturer867@reddit
My soul loves the wind and sea and clouds but my body shouldve been born in another country. I cant stand wet cold
LesnBOS@reddit
Ditto and why I left the DC area
fearass@reddit
I can say that you have summarised life in Sweden as well.
The low energy question, I have no idea how to answer. I feel dead by 10 pm even though I workout, move myself and take care of my food. In our “southern” home country, I am as energetic as fuck by 12 pm and starts the day by 6
LesnBOS@reddit
Sweden has a lot of outdoor space… but I guess it’s so cold it’s less enjoyable for a good part of the year. Given that, doesn’t stop Vermonters from being outside throughout the year! They seem to actually like the frankly imho unlivable cold
PhilippineDreams@reddit
Very well written. It is stuff like this that makes reddit such a valuable resource. Happy travels!
balthamos19@reddit
I am a spaniars living in DK, 13 years, lately it feels I am living a nightmare somehow. Dead inside alive
rEdempti90n@reddit
Damn.. your text is good . Exactly the right subtlety . And I am Dutch local. I feel exactly the same !
NoStatus8@reddit
This is what I would assume the vast majority of people that leave their home country experience. The sub Switzerland is FULL of people complaining about Switzerland, but so is every country sub it seems.
I‘ve moved the world over for work and my I‘ve seen these feelings across the globe in real life what is written here and other subs.
I fully understand that OP wants to go back tonhis homeland.
Ok_Character1322@reddit
I feel like this about Copenhagen (and I am from Denmark). I lived many years abroad in my 20's and moved back just before the pandemic. I have very close friends in Denmark, some who have known me my whole life - but I don't feel like I belong. On paper, Denmark is perfect and I will not minimise the privilege it is to have a Danish passport, but no matter how hard I tried, I was never fully truly happy there.
Entebarn@reddit
Sounds like seasonal affective disorder (SAD). I’m from a place with the same climate as the Netherlands (also lived in NL) and SAD is so real. I too had to move away. Best of luck in Italy!
MeatofKings@reddit
It’s tough to be away from that Mediterranean climate, especially as you age. I’m here in Southern California, and the high temperature today will be 71 (21-22 Celsius) in December with a clear sky. So you put up with high taxes, high housing costs and traffic to have beautiful weather, beaches, mountains, and excellent healthcare. I love Italy and hope to go back many more times.
alonhelman@reddit
I’m glad to hear others are having very similar feelings and experiences as I do. You really hit the nail on the head with everything you said.
Good luck with your next chapter!
today6666@reddit
From Italy to Netherlands is a big difference in how much sun you get, guessing from here in Canada. For that would need vitamin d3 to supplement the lack of sun esp coming from Italy.
YaBastaaa@reddit
Could have said all that writing in a small paragraph- gee !!
23odyssey@reddit
Aww, too many words for your little brain to comprehend?
YaBastaaa@reddit
Oh poor baby, getting your little bicycle too much drama for me . Lol . Just move on with your life and move to whatever country you want. 😂
ultimomono@reddit
After 20 years of living close to the mountains (in Madrid) and being an avid hiker/outdoorsy person--I don't think I could live somewhere that didn't enable me to have easy access to that. You grew up near the Alps? I that geography is baked into who you are and part of your culture and mindset. People tend to underestimate how much topography matters.
And sometimes being an outsider is just what you need to try new things and develop yourself away from where you grew up. But it's not for everyone longterm. Having a nice family you want to spend time with certainly must make it harder!
It's good that you have that choice and any future choices to keep fine-tuning the way you want to live.
Suspicious-Bar5583@reddit
I was always taught that you cannot move away from certain problems.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
You can, and we've done it before successfully!
Suspicious-Bar5583@reddit
Certain*
dallyan@reddit
Climate is climate. I’m a Mediterranean person and I simply feel better in sunny, warm climates. I will never feel differently and living in Switzerland for ten years has made me realize that.
Suspicious-Bar5583@reddit
Why are you arguing with me while every comment plus your post agree with me?
dallyan@reddit
Sorry. I think I responded to the wrong comment. I’ll blame the lack of vitamin d in my system.
Interesting-Tackle74@reddit
Haha
The lack of vitamin D is usually coming out in the end of the winter not in the beginning.
dallyan@reddit
Ok. Good old depression it is then!
Interesting-Tackle74@reddit
It's called seasonal depression
Interesting-Tackle74@reddit
You can and you cannot. Depends on the problems.
bubblegumscent@reddit
Basically why I will be leaving too
kats_journey@reddit
So many people in these comments need to look into taking Vitamin D supplements.
hippodribble@reddit
Pack some cheese!
martapuma@reddit
I'm Italian and have been living in Berlin for four years, and I share your feelings about the same things: family and friends far away, nature that doesn't have much to offer (no mountains here either, only lakes), sad food, difficult rental situation, and a healthcare system that is not as good as the Italian one. I still like the city, but it is a big metropolis and the distances are noticeable, even though I think the public transport is very good despite a few minor inefficiencies. I like that there are lots of bike lanes and that cycling is safer than in Italy. I have my group of friends here and I have met people I would hardly have met in my hometown. However, my parents are getting older, and so am I, and I don't see myself growing old here. So I'll give Berlin a few more years to save some money (it's undeniable that salaries are better), then I'll go back to Italy, hopefully to the hills and to a quieter life. All my Italian friends living here feel the same way and will return sooner or later. We grow up thinking that our country is the worst, but in the end there are also many positive aspects that we often don't see when we're there.
Salt_Worldliness5540@reddit
I feel like I could have written this post but it’s only been 5.5 years and moving back home isn’t an option for us. We are planning on moving to Spain as that’s the best place for us to get the sun and beach that is important to us. It’s the feeling of constantly being unwell and the unwelcome that gets me. I have never felt so low even when we lived in London so it’s not just the weather, it’s a cultural thing as well. I wish you all the best back in Italy and hopefully one day soon we can also make the move
Zestyclose-Tip-1089@reddit
That’s exactly why we - Dutch with UK partner - are moving from the most hideous part of NL (‘de Peel’) to central Portugal in January 🙏🏼
Target_Standard@reddit
Where in Italy will you be moving and why that place?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Back where I came from, near the Alps
Target_Standard@reddit
I plan on retiring in Trentino. I would have already moved there but I don't have the option to work remotely. Good luck.
Lung-King-4269@reddit
What bugs me most about here is the type of designated industry areas. It's all the same layout, stone color and trailer truck stops. It's depressing asf if you want to work at the same place for many years and this is probably why the office culture is so sterile and dare I say boring. I can't blame nature for the poor weather though.
Electrical-Reason-97@reddit
Very thoughtful post. Thank you for articulating with many of my friends you’ve done the same say about living in the Netherlands.
Annashida@reddit
Doesn’t Italy have centralized healthcare? Yep that’s what “free” healthcare is like. You can’t compare Italian food to anywhere in a world. It’s the best. When I am in Italy I eat everything and still manage to loose weight. Italy now also has lots of problems with until recently uncontrolled immigration and taxes going to support newcomers.
Practical_Gas9193@reddit
Are you sure you were in the Netherlands and not Denmark?
Professional_Team438@reddit
Growing up in southern Sweden my childhood until early twenties felt much like as described here: waiting for the summer that never comes. Many older people talked about how much they loved Spain and wanting to retire there one day. My instinct told me to get out of Sweden as quickly as possible so when I had the chance I moved to Spain , it’s twenty years ago now. Feeling much more alive here , the “waiting” is gone and I can enjoy the whole year - not just living a zombie life half the year.
juQuatrano@reddit
Vorrei tornare pure io Italia, ma minchia li gli stipendi sono da fame
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Lavoro da remoto. Questo è vero anche in Olanda, ormai i giovani qui vanno in Svizzera per tirare avanti.
juQuatrano@reddit
Penso la Svizzera sia il mio prossimo passo intermedio prima di venire a fare la pensione in Italia. Alla fine la Svizzera è più vicina geograficamente all'Italia e anche alla cultura. Magari in futuro ci penserò più seriamente.
axelf911@reddit
Wow Nederlands makes Canada feel like a panacea! lol. There’s no way it sucks that much.
Peacock_Feather6@reddit
Best of luck to you both! 🇮🇹🇳🇱🇪🇺
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
MastroLindus@reddit
As a fellow Italian in the NL I completely understand your thoughts. The Netherlands is a great country in many ways, I have been here 15 years and the way I can raise my young kids here wouldn't be as relaxed and easy in Italy. However I cannot hide being often homesick and missing so many things from there. I'm glad you took the decision and are going back, in bocca al lupo ragazzi, godetevi la bellezza dell'Italia anche per me :)
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Grazie e buona fortuna a voi!
oldboy21@reddit
Italian here living in the Netherlands for 7 years now. I do share any single thoughts of your post. Good luck moving back, planning the same for 2026!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
L’INPS ha bisogno di noi!
Busy_Cell_7982@reddit
Thank you so much for this post! NL was on our shortlist of options and I knew it had MANY things going for it and realized weather would be an issue, but the approach to healthcare you describe is totally unacceptable. I'm so sorry that happened to your wife and thank you so much for sharing because I've got kids and I'm not a wait-and-let-it-get-worse person at all--and would go apeshit in that type of environment. Thanks again and best of luck in Italy!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
comp21@reddit
Have you checked your vitamin D levels?
Those symptoms sound like low VitD and even though you're outside a lot, the Netherlands is quite a bit further north than Italy... Much less direct sunlight.
Not saying not to move back, just something to consider.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
High vitamin D doses for years!
comp21@reddit
Are you too high? :)
High levels can cause similar symptoms and absorbtion is directly related to the foods you eat with it...
Ex: i took 10,000 iu a day of d3 for eight years. My levels were mid range... Started taking fish oil with the d3 in the morning and within two months i was 18 points over the highest level of the range.
LilLeopard1@reddit
Its giving chat gpt
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It is; the reflection is mine
Icy_Anywhere2670@reddit
De groeten. Ciao.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Dooeeeiii
FreeButterscotch6971@reddit
Hey man, just want to say, a lot of your points resinate with me - specially since I used to be an outdoors person myself. Ive been here 3 years. Mountains, Sun and Sea are way more important than I realised before coming. Thanks for sharing and best of luck.
Slight_Artist@reddit
Vitamin sea! Love this, too true!!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you, best of luck to you too!
Substantial_Ebb_316@reddit
Best of luck! It’s all about learning and growing I say. Continue on. 🩵
EAbound@reddit
All reasons why I'm not contemplating to go back.
GeoMar16@reddit
All the best! I could've written this, I left the UK for factors like these. I live at the foot of the mountains now, chill with friends, have warmth (climate and people) and spontaneity. Yes, the economy is messier but life is better overall. Good luck!
AnyDemand33@reddit
It describes well the north of Germany 🥹
Interesting-Tackle74@reddit
I moved from Salzburg (near the mountains) to Vienna and have exactly the same feeling, except from the healthcare.
On the other hand, the city life's also many advantages. You find all different kinds of people, open people, people from everywhere. The quality of food and restaurants, cafes etc. is extremely good in Vienna and you find everything at every corner. The nature is not as bad as in the Netherlands (I have been living there too).
People on the countryside often have very extremely political views nowadays. And this is very difficult for me. After a week on the countryside, I'm glad to not having to hear those discussions anymore. They are very bad for your mental health, too.
HaydenNL@reddit
Are you guys adopting by any chance?
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Only cats
HaydenNL@reddit
Miauw? 😂
PracticingPiano@reddit
I can relate with the poor exam, sorry to hear that happened to you too. My gf got hit by a bike, and the first x-ray at the hospital was wrong (2nd exam 5 weeks after showed there was a fracture) because they missed it. All the best!
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Similar experience here!
Global_Persimmon_469@reddit
Same for me and my partner, we haven't been in NL for long, just 5 years, but we are done with it, mostly for the same reasons that you mentioned: no real nature, constant issues with the healthcare, cost of living growing like crazy, increasingly anti-expat sentiment.
I wish you good luck on your future
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you and you too!
zoopz@reddit
Im dutch and I recognize all the downsides you mention 😔 I wish you a lot of warmth back home.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Heel erg bedankt
dwaraz@reddit
Good luck in new chapter of life
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
TemporaryCareful4606@reddit
Thanks for sharing your experience. I feel very identified with all your points as a Continental European living in London. On top of what you explain is the racism and xenophobic vibe after Brexit here. I would love to go back to my home country but I don’t have a feasible plan to do that yet! All the best at your return to Italy!
Acardul@reddit
Everything I agree but not weather, global warming hits well here. I don't remember too many winters when I was able to chill on balcony in tshirt looking at skyline of Rotte :3 this year? I could call it spring.
elrobbo1968@reddit
It's also a cultural thing for sure. I completely understand your emotions. But Italy is in SO much debt that this is going to be a real problem. I have family in Greece and they could never live here. But I could not live there as well. But in the end the bill has to be paid and I think Italy soon won't be able to pay it's 78 billion interest payments on the 3 trillion debt they have. I hope you get the good feeling back in Italy. Just have a plan B in case Italy is going to be bankrupt just like Greece.
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
We are ready to leave again if necessary or if we get the itch. That said, Europe as a whole is not doing great, so...
paulross14@reddit
I agree! Just enjoy Italy because it is your country and it is your family! And there’s nothing better than that! We all know that there is NO perfect country! I moved to the USA 26 years ago, and ho don’t even get me started… I would pay a million dollars to undo this mistake! Too late for me !
Chuck-Finley69@reddit
I accept your offer and can help your exit.
Dharm747@reddit
Great summary and for locals and families foreigners good to read about your considerations.
I wish you a happy life back to your beautiful country (which is our family favorite holiday country).
Enjoy life to the fullest !
🙏
Distinct-Image-7986@reddit
I completely understand you my friend. I am also from a southern European country and have been in NL for a little over a year. Living in NL definitely has a lot of cons.
Valuable_Echo2043@reddit
Yeah, that was Mexico for me. 5 years there and then left for Europe. It served its purpose though and likely won't become viable for me ever again, but I'm thankful for the experiences had there.
Beginning-Tie-976@reddit
Well people like you (expats) are part of the housing problem. You guys "grew" in the Netherlands with 30% off taxes, with the result that the housing prices are still rising. So stop complaining and dont bother us with your never ending monologue
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately I never had the 30% ruling :(
Beginning-Tie-976@reddit
I didnt finish reading ;) and just done with (mostly rich) expats complaining
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
It's good that expats complain, eventually they'll leave and house prices will go down /s
ToocTooc@reddit
Depends on where you head: if you move to Southern Italy you are in for a rough awakening.
Good luck with your new life's chapter tho.
CensoredByRedditMods@reddit
Good luck moving back, I hope to visit Italy one day
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
LiterallyTestudo@reddit
Bentornati in Italia :)
scrotomon@reddit (OP)
Grazie!
MistakeVisible3669@reddit
Very thoughtful and honest. 11 years is a long time, and you can say you both did it the best you could. Change is good, and it sounds like you'll get a lot out of your next chapter. Enjoy!
erm-waterproof@reddit
Very well written. I think most expats in Germany eventually feel the similar after certain point.