Ford’s biggest reliability concerns are with their 3 cylinders, which afaik, isn’t offered in Lincoln product.
The 2L and 2.3L ecoboost are Ford’s best engines, because mazda designed them. The only time they had problems was when Ford made modifications.
The 2.0 has gone through multiple iterations by Ford and the most recent is a fully redesigned by Ford modular engine. The new one has direct and port injection to help with the carbon buildup issues in the older ones.
I would argue that the 2.7 and 3.0 nano architecture ecoboost are probably Ford’s best engines at the moment. Not thrilled with the belt driven oil pumps, but so far haven’t heard of widespread issues with them like the wet timing belts of the 1.0EB. The nano engines themselves have proven quite stout even with lackluster maintenance.
Honestly all three of the F150 engines are pretty solid at this point, 2.7 Ecoboost, 3.5 Ecoboost, and 5.0 V8.
All three have had some growing pains but Ford has been iterating on these engines for years now with massive volumes to learn from.
And on their turbo engines their direct injection / port combo solution seems to actually work at preventing carbon buildup over engine life.
Been a while since I’ve put my hands one either the 2.7 and I don’t think I’ve yet seen a 3.0. From what I remember about the 2.7 though, I remember persistent oil pan leaks. I guess not technically a reliability concern in the short term, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Yeah, the stupid plastic oil pans and RTV the earlier engines used was pretty notorious for that, and given the number of TSBs they released about that one issue is pretty comical. It appears to have been resolved (or at least improved) with the second gens. Still plastic though.
My Mazda 5 has that same "Duratec" 2.5. Hasn't given me any problems at all, though I wish it was more fuel efficient like the K24 in my Accord. If the engine ever fails in my NC Miata, it would be tempting to do a 2.5 swap.
The 2.0 has a bad record for coolant intrusion due to Ford’s rework of the Mazda L engine block. In a bid to cut manufacturing costs they put coolant channels directly under the head gasket, whereas Mazda’s original design used drilled holes under the cylinder deck. Ford made this change around 2015, and reverted to Mazda’s drilled holes in about 2020 IIRC.
The RS head gasket thing was an assembly error, people just put the wrong head gasket on it.
I 'm trying to be less pedantic, but in my book if you take another brand's block and not only cast it yourself, but change the cooling passages, re-designing the casting - you might as well call the thing your own and have the enthusiast community recognize as such, especially when the durability is effected this much.
Let me think this out in a couple ways: 1) If Toyota took the B58, cast it in Toyota City, and changed the manner the engine distributes coolant within itself in that casting. You know what? Call it a Toyota 6JZ moving forward. 2) Is the Saab B235 in a 2005 Saab 9-5 Aero motivated by a Triumph CG series engine?
Anecdotally I have 2012 Lincoln MKZ hybrid and my mother in law has an ‘18 of the same.
Mine now has over 200k and I haven’t done much to it. Brakes, rear wheel bearing 7 years ago and oil changes.
It needs some TLC but it hasn’t given me any real issues.
The 18 has also been trouble free as far as I know. And it’s got over 100k
That makes sense.
I have often wondered how much of Jeep's reliability issues are due to mods. I'm not trying to excuse Jeep (before I get flamed) but I have seen people slap so much stuff onto a Wrangler while not only not understanding what it is going to do to the car, but not even *thinking* about what it is going to do to the car.
There’s definitely a lot of that going on, but even stock Jeeps are notorious for their poor reliability. There are a few YouTubers that have broken down Jeep engines to show how poorly built and designed they are.
Specifically the grand wagoneer. I live in south OC, and none of them know how to drive such a large vehicle without endangering everyone around them :(
> older pepole with money.
I wonder if this also impacts the way people view it. If Ford tells someone it's going to cost $1k to fix something, they may view that as meaning Ford is unreliable. A Lincoln owner might not bat an eye.
Agreed. I think their current offers look fantastic, but given it's Lincoln I expected them to be underpowered and not built to last. Reading this I glanced at their site, I definitely got the underpowered bit wrong
Just got a 2017 MKZ with the 3.0. I didnt realize they were 400HP 400lb AWD. They're pretty unassuming and the trim level changes things a lot but I'd say they definitely make some sleepers
Ford had some great sleeper cars in that time.
Ford fusion sport. Trim level only made for 2 years.
Twin turbo 2.7ecoboost v6, 325 hp, and 350 or 380 for torque depending on model year.
>BMW’s reliability has come a long way in the last \~15 years. Nice to see.
\+1 to that, but i'm also very curious to see what data points they're using to say it's reliable.
Immediate reliability, yes. The B58 still suffers from the plastic engine components which degrade over time. It’s a cost effective manufacturing solution that doesn’t bode well for long-term ownership.
Also, the N52 and M52 were wonderful motors. Just because y’all are very likely focusing on the N54/55 and S-motors doesn’t negate the fact that BMW has made reliable engines in the last 25 years.
I had a 2011 328xi as my winter car that I swapped for a 2010 X3 with \~45K less KMs on it. The N52 is so fucking nice; a true I6 GOAT despite not being a 'sexy' engine.
Their sixes have generally been solid engines, some issues have cropped up and plastic bits are annoying with BMWs as maintenance items.
It's when you get into V8s I feel things get more hit or miss, especially the twin turbos. But generally follow forums if you are keeping a car long term and budget for the routine major service issues that will show up.
I've been looking heavily into their v8s lately and from what I've found it is something like this: N63 is avoid at all costs. N63TU is better but still not great. N63TU2 and 3 are generally ok. Still can suffer from plastic issues like pretty much anything and no matter which way you slice it, there is a lot of heat in a small space and things live a shorter lifespan but the later ones aren't terrible like the first ones. One thing I saw someone mention that helps is to modify the temperature target down a little; in eco pro mode it is something like 110c which is quite hard on the plastics.
Interestingly, even with their V8s, BMW's old line of M60's, M62's, and even the Diesel M67 (Fun fact: [It powers a tram car in Europe BTW](https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments/1ov82cw/theres_a_bmw_m67_engine_in_this_tram_thats_all/)) are actually quite reliable. Don't know what happened effective with the N63 Twin Turbo V8 onwards, but it's a piece of work. Though, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that after a good couple technical updates (especially after Technical Update #3 or TU3), the N63 is about ok. Though, it'll be interesting to see how the S68 (debuted in the newer gen 60i labeled BMWs and some Range Rovers and the LR Defender Octa) fares much later on.
Speaking of BMW reliability, I got a taste of the 'good ol' days when I purchased a 2010 X3 at auction this year, with 144K KMs.
It feels substantially better made and put together than my E90 335xi M Sport. Zero rattles, plastics feel solid, its kind of shocking how much better it is despite looking 'older' (the E83 is really an E46 on stilts).
Turns out the main reason why from what I read is that the E83s were made by Magna Steyr in Austria.
Here’s the actual CR ranking: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/cars-driving/which-brands-make-the-best-cars-a6159221985/
Subaru supremacy!
Keeping in mind that this is measuring the all-around goodness of the brand along a variety of axes, not just reliability or something.
8-point jumps for VW in overall ranking and reliability, but they dropped 2 points in owner satisfaction
[https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-and-least-liked-car-brands-a1291429338/](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-and-least-liked-car-brands-a1291429338/)
The other thing to note is that the ranking on the new car list is probably a better indication of current trends as far as reliability is concerned. Brands at the bottom of the new car reliability list are unlikely to climb the long-term reliability rankings in the coming years. Their position is indicative of the fact that they're barely making the 3-5 year window. The inverse is likely true for the brands that maintain the top positions. If you're buying a new car in the hopes that it will last, pick a model with a good new car ranking that hasn't had any mechanical updates since the ranking. Right now Mazda is number 3 on the long term ranking, but if you're buying a new car and rely solely on that number, you'd be more likely to get burned by their current SUVs than Subaru's. Past performance is not indicative of guaranteed future outcomes.
Yes, I would agree. Which also explains some of the weird dissonance in the reliability conversation. People end up talking past each other without realizing it.
Many car buyers only car about new car reliability, generally speaking about 3-5 years. Either they lease, or they trade in at an age or mileage. However, other buyers drive their cars into the ground. I think drive-into-the-ground buyers are less inclined to buy new cars, and would typically purchase used then drive into the ground.
The person buying a five year old car to drive it another 10 years cares about very different numbers than the person leasing. However they use the same word: reliability. This causes people to argue on the internet.
That long term list is the most important imo. And as expected, the usual suspects make up the top 5. Honourable mention to BMW, they’ve done well that past decade to better themselves.
That seems to make sense to me. the M240i is a mass production car with a detuned/understressed B58 where as the Type R is a niche vehicle where Honda is wringing everything possible out of the K-series.
Partially, the K series is probably capable of more hp, and reliably so, it’s the torque steer from FWD that limits its output, even with Hondas mechanical allowance for it.
[https://radioimg.audacy.com/aiu-media/Top-brands-photo-f3858e14-d20f-4ef0-841d-15865469db3f.png?width=800](https://radioimg.audacy.com/aiu-media/Top-brands-photo-f3858e14-d20f-4ef0-841d-15865469db3f.png?width=800)
And an even simpler direct link to the list.
Anecdotally, the prices at the local subaru dealership didnt increase near as much as the others. And the buying experience is a whole lot better too. idk how that compares to other places tho.
I've had some complaints about my Bronco but the buying process was the best I've ever experienced, frankly. The pricing was transparent, there was limited pressure to purchase the usual add-on packages in the finance office, and I was in and out of the dealer in record time.
Meanwhile the one time I wanted to test drive a WRX was an absolute nightmare.
My experience buying my Maverick was good too. Quick no bs process. I made it clear that I wanted no add-ons or extra warranties from the start though. I like how it's pretty easy to order the exact spec and options that you want from Ford. I checked out Toyota and was put off by the allocation model.
I’ve had a good buying experience at Mazda….but the cx70 I bought sucks. So many problems in 7k miles that i asked Mazda to buy it back.
Toyota dealers are unhinged but that is on Toyota. It’s nearly impossible to get what you like without waiting months and at MSRP or below.
Nissan dealers are the fucking worst. Feels like stepping into 2000s.
My Hyundai dealer is decent. But I tried 4 Kia dealerships by me and all were trash.
PHEV I'm guessing? I love my Mazda 3, but the CX-70 and 90 seem like nothing but trouble here in the US. Literally video series on reddit about a mom who bought one and got 1-2 different loaners all with similar issues and the dealership being an absolute pain to deal with.
Lemons happen to all brands. There's a law for a reason. I had an 06 Mazda 3 that was a lemon, dealer took it back and gave us a fresh one. Rock solid car for the 170k miles we had it.
My personal experience with dealers around me:
I wouldn't touch a Ford dealership with a fucking pole. Just a genuinely awful experience from start to finish. My mom had a lemon electric Focus and it was a nightmare getting rid of it.
VW felt like a below-average car buying experience. Typical back and forth with the sales manager, shady on pricing, a little pushy. Service advisor was a dipshit, caught him trying to quote me over $2,000 for carbon cleaning on a GTI.
I only have experience with Honda's service department, not sales. I think this one is one of the highest volume Honda dealers in the country. Huge facility, very nice, service advisor was chill and didn't oversell my girlfriend on services.
Subaru is *excellent* as far as dealers go. Very relaxed buying experience, no pressure, no bullshit sales tactics, transparent pricing and sold at MSRP with no pushback. They even gave me above average trade in value on my GTI. Finance manager tried to guilt me a little about the extended warranty but let it go when I pushed back. The after sale experience is probably the best you'll get for a non-luxury brand. They walked me around the dealership and introduced me to the service department and Subaru ambassador, gave me some free swag, told me about charity events. Service department was lovely when I went in for my first oil change.
Carmax is pretty interesting. If you just want to buy a car for a set price, have no hassles, and just sail through the buying process, I would recommend it. Probably the best place to test drive cars due to inventory and the ability to ship cars between dealers for free.
I have bought a Toyota, Mazda, and a Subaru in the last few years. Mazda was unironically a pleasant experience. It was weird, I kept waiting for the dealership slime tactics but they never came. Subaru was pretty good, low pressure very friendly, really fair and upfront on pricing. Didn’t have to do the whole back and forth thing with a ‘manager’ in another room. Toyota was miserable. Maybe the worst car buying experience I have ever experienced. At no point was I treated as a customer, I was simply lucky enough to be considered. I walked and bought one used.
Paid $20K for a Chevy Bolt last year at Carmax, it was simple. In, out, done. Not as fast as Tesla but still pretty good.
Paid $120K for a Lexus LC500 a couple of years ago. I've bought multiple cars from them (before they were acquired by a dealer group) and use their dealership for service, so they know me. I was paying cash for the LC and they spent 2 hours doing credit / identity checks. Because their new owners require that they try to sell financing to everybody. The deal should have taken half an hour, it took three.
I can't wait for this independent dealership model to die. They don't care about your time or your perception of them, if it makes them a few extra dollars and you never come back. Why the manufacturers let these dealers treat their customers so badly is beyond me.
100%, except I'd add that manufactures that let this beast grow to any size find themselves not legally able to take meaningful action. Those that started without the framework and fought from that angle have had much more control and success over this thinly vailed customer abuse.
It’s baked into the law in a lot of places unfortunately. There’d have to be significant legislative pressure to change it and then people would start talking about things like job loss to fight against it changing.
The real problem with Toyota is they have very little control over the dealerships themselves, especially in the southeastern US. Those dealers work directly with an independent distributor to get their cars, not Toyota themselves.
I also had an '18 GTI from new and would agree the buying experience was 'fine'. After sale service was pretty poor though. I had a few warranty work items done and they refused a courtesy car and were difficult to schedule. Haven't made it that far with the Toyota/Subaru yet but Mazda post-sale dealer service has been perfect. I had a warranty claim on the Miata and they handled it without fuss and offered me a courtesy car without me having to ask.
It's so funny how different experiences are across dealerships. My Subaru experiences mirrors yours. My Mazda experience was absolutely miserable...they did everything but try to lock me into the building to get me to buy. And our local Toyota has such a poor reputation, I didn't even try.
It is really significant how much your local dealership informs your experience with a brand. I wonder if auto makers realize that their customer’s dealership interaction carries a ton of brand perception.
Both of our local Subaru dealerships are absolutely garbage. We have both bad and good Mazda and Toyota dealerships. I purchased my Toyota at the good dealership and it went very smoothly: good price, no upsell, quick.
I also wonder if the relatively low number of Subarus I see locally is, in part, due to how bad these specific dealerships are.
I bought mine back in February and I think I was in and out in a little over 2 hours. I already know what special financing incentive I wanted and which car I wanted to look at. We test drove the car, they gave me the out the door pricing, I filled out a credit app, and I was approved 10 minutes later. Signed the paperwork and paid my down payment and the car was ready for me as soon as I walked out of the office.
No insulting numbers games, no “let me speak with my sales manager,” and no pushy upsells. I’ve bought a decent amount of new cars from different brands over the years, but the Subaru experience was by far the smoothest.
I completely agree. I myself own an XT6, and unfortunately, last year I crashed into a guardrail on the highway. Can you imagine? It rolled over twice at 140 km/h, all the airbags deployed, and I was completely unharmed. Thank God!
It’s more their software for the infotainment and air suspensions. I’ve known several R1T drivers whose air suspensions have gone out within the first 40K.
Air suspensions have a lot of advantages in terms of capability (being able to lower and raise for the type of driving) but stories like that worries me for long term ownership
Good hydraulics are where it’s at. Mine made it 25 years and over 300k miles on the original globes and fluid. Changed out the globes and fluid not because anything broke but because I figured it would improve the ride quality, and it definitely did, went like 10-15 mph faster than usual on the ride home because the car felt much more comfy at speed, and I was pretty happy with the ride quality on the old fluid.
Meanwhile, I know some friends who spent $3000 on 2 in lift kits that ride much worse than my hydraulics I put $600 and an afternoon into. I can get the same lift just by pressing a button next to the shifter when I need it, the rest of the time I have a vehicle that handles better on the road where lift doesn’t matter.
Citroen figured this out a long time ago and it’s the reason people say the DS still rides very comfortably even by modern standards.
I feel a bit sad whenever I see a super clean, bone stock, rust free LX that someone threw an OME 2 in lift on right before putting it up on Cars and Bids or something. The lines aren’t rusty, the hydraulics probably worked fine before the delete, and even if they didn’t, the system is pretty well understood at this point and probably could have been DIY repaired for way cheaper.
Same here. I like air suspension setups, but longevity/durability scares me off some of them. I know you can always swap to coils and springs, but I’d want to keep things stock and conserve all the features they offer.
They are weighted differently. But having a ton of infotainment or air suspension issues is still a lot worse than what most cars have, which is close to zero issues in the first couple of years.
But the R1T has also had issues with the electric motor, the drive system, climate system, and overall build quality. Remember the issues with the retractable bed cover that led to its cancellation?
Yeah I mean, I’m sure there’s a bit, but I’ve done the surveys before and from what I remember from old ones they’re just asking for problem areas and how many you’ve had/frequency. One friend with an R1T had numerous infotainment issues (blank screens, reboots while driving, no screens for drives, etc) on a weekly basis until the last software update. Still an incredible truck and he still loves it.
Side note for anyone considering the R1T or R1S. Ditch the pirellis and get some tires with mileage guarantees (I think Michelin and BFGoodrich have some). The stock Pirellis are known for wearing out within the first 13-20K miles (the more you drive in Eco mode the faster).
Number 1 in owner satisfaction though. I mean i agree, i have had a robust rivian but many haven’t and its the absolute best vehicle i have ever owned.
Their survey is flawed because reliability is based on how many complaints (calls to service) a customer has. It doesn’t matter what the reason is.
If a person can’t figure out how to connect their phone, then that is hit to the reliability. Doesn’t matter if the car is yeeting the engine on the highway or people just can’t figure out how to play their favorite podcast.
It’s also based on surveys returned so a brand is rewarded if their customers are less likely to return the survey for any reason.
No
> The overall reliability verdict summarizes a model’s overall reliability over up to 20 trouble spots. Because problems with major engine and transmission components, the cooling system, electric motor, EV battery, and drive system can be serious and more expensive to repair, our calculation gives more weight to problems in these areas. The reliability scores show whether the model had more or fewer problems overall than the average model of that year.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq-a1099917197/
Continue reading, it says on that same page that “in-car electronics” are part of the score. They apply weights to the 20 trouble spots, but they do not disclose those weights so it is still possible for 2 bluetooth issues to equal an engine failure.
Hey goob, *continue reading:*
Engine, major; engine cooling; transmission, major; drive system; electric motor; and EV battery problems are more likely to take a car out of service and to be more expensive to repair than the other problem areas. **Consequently, we weight these areas more heavily in our calculations of model year overall reliability. Problems such as broken trim and in-car electronics have a much smaller weight.** Problems in any area can be an expense and a bother, though, so we report them all in the reliability history charts.
Here’s my point:
What is the weighting?
A transmission issue could have a 40% weighting, but if Bluetooth issues have a 10% weighting having 4 service visits make the two equal.
You can’t just say we weight trouble areas according to severity, you have to give the damn weights.
Literally they're telling you exactly what you're asking, they're just not giving you the numbers. They know that the vast, vast majority of people can understand that when they say "**Problems such as broken trim and in-car electronics have a much smaller weight**," they are literally saying, "Hey dumdum, we know a bluetooth pairing doesn't match a broken drive shaft." You are the exception.
It comes from your interpreation of it. Quoting you:
*Continue reading, it says on that same page that “in-car electronics” are part of the score. They apply weights to the 20 trouble spots, but they do not disclose those weights so it is still possible for 2 bluetooth issues to equal an engine failure.*
So 'It's possible" that they did that, but then you also stated "because reliability is based on how many complaints (calls to service) a customer has. It doesn’t matter what the reason is."
So again, confidently incorrect. You're viewing one possible, unproven potentiality and then claiming it as a fact.
This is not true. Their surveys explicitly asks what types of reliability issues you’ve encountered. They weigh powertrain and safety issues far more heavily than minor things. Infotainment only gets a heavier weight if it also causes a major issue — for example, if you can’t turn on HVAC because it’s all in a screen that’s glitching out. That’s causes a larger point reduction than Bluetooth is a little choppy for music.
The weights aren’t published so it is possible that 3 Bluetooth problems equals a broken drive shaft. In an interview the head of auto testing said that cars with more technology will typically get lower scores.
Maybe that’s changed since 2020, but CR hasn’t discussed their weights or any changes to their testing.
My man I have a 2013 model 3. had it since it was new the power locks don't work anymore but no other issues other than maintenance in it's entire lifespan
Because they see the flaws they made in the past and worked on correcting and updating them? Isn’t that what all company should be doing? Seems like like Jeep never never got that memo.
Haven't used it but Subaru was legitimately dead to me due to the infotainment but the new screen gives me hope and they're definitely in the running once again when I need a new car.
Strongly considering the new OB to replace my wife's 2017 Nissan.
The Nissan is on borrowed time at 70k with that CVT timebomb (and yes, I change the fluid every 25k.)
It won’t. BMW used to have 3 issues: unreliability, stupid design decisions, expensive repairs. They’ve gotten rid of 1 in that they’ve become a lot more reliable, but the last 2 still stand. Especially the expensive repairs and maintenance.
Interesting. I consider them the worst.
I know more people that have blown subaru engines than any other engine. Biased I know but you've gotta admit, the boxer engine is fighting physics in a way that most engines aren't.
Interior quality, dynamics, mpgs, speakers, infotainment and seats are all trash. They're all under powered. Bad steering, throttle mapping, brakes.
The only things they're good at are off-roading and marketing. They're not class leading in any other way. It's a miracle that they can show up with a car good enough for marketing to do the heavy lifting.
Okay I hear you. Qualifier, every blown Kia/Hyundai motor I've seen was replaced under warranty. When a Subaru engine blows, the owner is left holding the bag
subaru only gets this rep because outdoors people and lesbians are too die hard of fans, they will not say a single bad thing about subaru. Source: lesbian friends and outdoors rock climbing friends. Their subaru can come alive and run them over and they'll still love it.
before the hate comes .... im just posting trash while killing time at work
I'm a self-aware Subaru fanboy. My brother and I have had 4 modified WRX / STi between us and they've all been rock solid. Most fun and easy to own cars I've had. The community is generally pretty cool too; much more enthusiastic than most, whether it's outdoorsy folks or people into motorsports.
That fucking iPad in the center console though...
Neither a lesbian nor outdoorsy, Subaru just builds good, easy to use cars that don’t break, that have great value built in. The AWD system is superior to what’s offered in class, and they retain value fairly well.
yeah but they offer 0 cars with circle headlights so it really doesn't matter how reliable they are, they still have no pull in the round headlight game
My Subaru is 8 years old with 80k miles and it’s full of electrical gremlins and broken bits and bobs. I’m not replacing it with another Subaru. The perceived value in reliability is dwarfed by overall quality imo. Other brands have much better audio, better seats, better drive, and better range. If that comes at the cost of more service, then so be it
They definitely have a cult mentality to them, I won't deny that. They have gotten way better over the last decade though. I've had the 04 and now 24 WRXs, these new ones feel more like a Honda or Toyota than a Subaru. My 17 Si threw random codes all the time, the Santa Cruz would randomly drop into limp mode, our Maverick has had god knows how many recalls, my VB WRX though; that's been towing motorcycles back and forth across the country for 9 months without a single issue.
Even if Subaru didn't get better... everyone else got worse.
...also killing time at work!
> these new ones feel more like a Honda or Toyota than a Subaru
Lots of co-development there on that engine. The NA version is shared between the BRZ/86.
I had the 86 for about a year too, never had any issues with that one either. Drove it 20k miles in one year and the only two things I hated was that it was an automatic, and changing those goddamn spark plugs.
No reason for Lincoln to be so far ahead of ford besides smaller market share and less commuters driving them. Might this skew on the data affect other high end brands ratings? What am I missing?
\> [Lincoln](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/lincoln/) was the biggest mover, climbing 17 positions, partly because its aging product line has become more reliable.
Lincoln only makes a few crossovers and the Navigator, while Ford makes SUVs, light-to-heavy duty trucks, EVs, and the Mustang. So I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that Ford’s reliability in the aggregate is different from Lincoln’s, but at the same time, this is why reliability ratings across an entire brand are sort of meaningless IMO.
Yup in my experience (at least for Subaru and bmw) if you take care of your car, it will take care of you. Yea shit will go wrong here or there and there are lemons as with all brands, but doing the oil changes on time and transmission fluid early makes these cars last many years.
Head gaskets and (bad) Nissan CVTs have made me wary of Subaru. Then the BRZ oil starvation issue. Maybe I’m being unfair, but Subaru’s value proposition never really made sense to me.
BMW is just a different thing in my head: maintenance can be a pain, but their workhorse powertrains (like the b58 and the zf8) are free of engineering errors.
The head gasket issue iirc is from a decade + ago. Oil starvation isn’t new on subi’s flat engines, they come with poor oil pans and pickups. A simple oil pan upgrade/mod fixes this, but it should be stock. It should be known that left stock and driven normally (not hot laps on a track) it won’t fail. It’s under heavy load and hard cornering that failures occur. Still love Subaru, I’ve owned a handful and never had any mechanical breakdown.
Head gaskets haven’t been an issue for over a decade at this point.
Not sure what you mean by Nissan CVTs either, Subaru’s transmissions have nothing to do with Nissan or Jatco.
Damn, my info is outdated. Still hate using CVTs though, and I’m the wrong demographic for the BRZ. For $30k I’d rather get something used with better performance.
The Subaru CVT is fine if you take care of it. The problem with Subaru is their guidance, last I checked, was a mixed message which was very confusing. IIRC, Subaru America said not to bother with fluid changes (and I have heard reports that some dealers wont do them because of that, tho mine gave me no problem when I requested it) while Subaru Japan says to change the fluid.
And like the other commenter said, the head gasket hasn't been a thing in a while.
Subaru being the top brand isn't surprising. Most of their models have been poking along with the same underpowered engines for over a decade now. So while reliable, they're old and underpowered. Like how does a Forester still have just 180 hp? If they actually invested in engines, transmissions and tech (because Starlink is horrible) they'd hit all ratings out of the park.
Subaru has had multiple engine updates over the last decade.
180HP is low but not particularly bad for the segment the Forester competes in. Nearly all of it is 180HP-200HP for the base models. Subaru even offered a 2.0L Turbo Forester XT model multiple times over the years and each time dropped it due to poor sales, customers simply don't want it. The powertrain upgrade Forester buyers wanted, a hybrid, is now available.
Starlink is dead.
Subaru very clearly listens to what their buyers want... probably better than almost any other make.
They have turbocharged models and hybrid models now which are very quick. And tbh I hope they don’t change because why fuck with something that actually works and doesn’t blow up ( unlike Honda, Toyota).
A big part of Subaru being up top here is they do hit all of CR's ratings out of the park. Subaru has good reliability ratings which puts them above the likes of Honda, Hyundai, and Kia. Owner satisfaction ratings are strong for them as well, but what puts them way above Toyota in the overall rankings is their road test scores. CR ratings put a lot more focus onto practicality and comfort for their SUVs and less on acceleration and handling vs an outlet like C&D would, and so something like the Forester racks up a lot of points and ends up being one their highest rated vehicles (even before accounting for reliability) just for being a practical and easy-going vehicle with massive windows and decent fit-and-finish. The Forester doesn't get dinged too much on infotainment despite it being slow, and for most compact SUVs, CR doesn't test on anything beyond the base engine + hybrid (if offered), so acceleration is largely a wash (plus subcompact SUVs are only vehicles are the only vehicles that CR tests now that really get dinged on acceleration). Most of what the Forester does well in applies to their other non-performance vehicles.
Consumer Reports doesn't include recalls in their reliability rankings, unless the car actually demonstrated that specific problem for the owner (e.g. with the Toyota engine recall if your engine actually broke down they get dinged, but not if it just had the recall). They do this because otherwise it might encourage manufacturers to hide flaws and not conduct needed recalls.
Their worst year(s) ever still puts them in the top..
I'm not optimistic about their future though. Reliability is basically their only draw now (outside of their sports cars) and it's not trending upward...
> Reliability is their only draw now?
Is it though? Give them even average reliability and they basically still have the best hybrids as well as a vehicle for everyone in any segment (maybe besides heavy duty trucks) and the like)
Hybrids, yeah for sure. I guess if the insane markups go away eventually they could be competitive without the, this car will go to 300k miles on basic maintainance thing they have/had. I think the biggest surprise is hearing of the amount of plastic they use now, that's never a recipe for 300k miles especially as the replacement parts aren't even cheaper.
Right. That is my point. I guess I wasn’t clear. They are the best, yet they have recalled millions of cars this year alone. How bad does that make everyone else.
[Subaru is 12th](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/which-brands-make-the-best-used-cars-a2811658468/) on Consumer Reports long term reliability rating.
But when you consider new car reliability, road test score and owner satisfaction as a composite score, new Subarus on average come out on top.
Toyota is the best value car for your money in my view. In 55 years of driving,
I have owned so many different cars new and used and I have always found Toyota to have the best bang for the buck for me!
Obviously this is just my view. To each their own.
It's true imo if you consider resale value. Toyota sticker and markup may be higher but ownership cost is lower and resale stays within 20% of sticker for most of a decade.
Tesla is last in long term reliability, but some may say who cares because only a fool would actually buy one to keep.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/which-brands-make-the-best-used-cars-a2811658468/
[https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/which-brands-make-the-best-used-cars-a2811658468/](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/which-brands-make-the-best-used-cars-a2811658468/)
>*Ram, Jeep, and Tesla are the least reliable for used cars, with 24th, 25th, and 26th positions in the ranking, respectively.*
I would wait for Ford to get their shit together before buying a Lincoln.
I will say that personally I think the Navigator is a nicer place to be than the Escalade. Those front seats are unreal.
Incorrect, it is crap. Owners have complained, and sales have been lost. Subaru is responding by improving the existing hardware as much as they can for existing models, and backpedaling to buttons for interior redesigns. The clearest sign of its failure is that they are reversing course in just one generation.
Mazda’s PHEV offerings have dealt the brand quite a bit of damage. Wouldn’t have expected them to screw up so badly when they could have partnered with Toyota.
> isn’t this pretty much a pay to win test?
You would think brands that have the perception of not being reliable (stellantis etc) would throw a blank check at them to try to change that sentiment no?
Consumer reports? Not really. They are subscriber funded and they buy all the vehicles and test them rigorously. They have a separate ranking for cars on long term reliability of used cars as well. This one just looks at new cars.
You might be thinking of JD Power.
CR is a nonprofit, they buy the cars they test off of dealer lots and their reliability data comes from surveys of their own members. Nothing is perfect but their methodology is as unbiased as is reasonably possible.
Subaru has its faults but they make some good cars, if you take care of them. My first car was a Forester, my first fun car was a WRX, and my first sports car is now a BRZ
3/4 of my cars have been Subarus at this point and im not even 30 yet lol.
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