I love Christian archeology because it’s always like “yeah we had a super short amount of time to investigate and we are totally not biased to believe that this is a biblical artifact trust me brooo.”
The irony of antichristians trying to claim always that “this is the one bro” and then saying that everyone is biased when it is scientifically shown that it isn’t is hilarious.
Scientifically show me one single biblical artifact that archeologists have found with proof that the Bible was real. Stuff like the Dead Sea scrolls or the records of Pilate being Prefect don’t “prove” anything other than that the authors knew what was happening around them.
How did you get that from this? This is clearly anti-Jew and pro Christian. He’s claiming there is solid evidence of Christianity and Israelite Jews destroyed it to cope.
I mean, it's a tomb that supposedly contains the corpse of someone that reportedly rose from the dead and ascended bodily into heaven.
If it's real, it only proves that Jesus was a real person. It also proves that he didn't ascend into heaven as it claims in the bible.
It's not. The only thing considered evidence that we have is Josephus' accounts of the region Jesus is from, which have been heavily tampered over time by the church and thrown out entirely by most historians. Several other scrolls and texts claiming he is real and claiming to be from that time period have also been debunked as fake and have been dated back to anywhere from the middle ages to the rennaissance after scientific analysis.
The epistles only mention jesus in passing by Paul and the OG gospels have been reconstructed/pieced together in very debatable and sketchy ways that make historians question the validity of what has been pieced together about jesus from them.
Except the gospels aren't baseline proof. Work on piecing them together has been skeptical at best including everything from a litany of scribing errors to intentional editing by the church. Historians are torn on how valid they are considering how much they have been altered by the church and other scribes over the countless years.
Why not? Just because it has an agenda doesn't mean it's wrong lol, and the Gospels get a lot of historical details right, in particular John, which is notable because it is often criticized for being the most Hellenistic of the gospels
I could write a historical fiction about the 1960s right now, a lot of details in it would be true and allude to real world events and history. Doesn’t make it not historical fiction
Fair enough, but if 3 other people copied your story with some details added and removed, it's more probable that there was some original work that it was all based off of. Also, some other guy wrote a bunch of letters to his friends in the 80s and 90s talking about how they need to do all of these things and start a whole religion based on a character in a book you haven't even written yet.
After a certain point, it just makes more sense and is a simpler conclusion to believe Jesus was a real person. Myths don't become history within the span of 25-30 years.
Oh I agree that he was a real person. Most historians agree on that. It’s the other aspects of the story that leave me dubious, much like storytelling in other ancient sources
What I’m saying is that I look at the Bible in the same way I do the works of Homer. Both are used extensively in academia and are important to the study of ancient history, but as real sources, literal sources, it’s hard to distinguish what can be taken seriously from it. That’s all I’m saying
1. What sources could they cite? People didn't really write much down back then, and these are ultimately based on firsthand accounts.
2. It is though. When studying ancient history it doesn't get much better, and most historians agree that it's pretty unlikely for Jesus to go from unfounded myth to backed up historical figure within the course of 20 years (the time of the earliest Pauline Epistles).
Paul’s first letters were far before that, and the gospels were **assembled that far after, immediate testimony and word of mouth was how the gospels spread first and why they aligned across all continents
I wish I could just say stuff is true with no proof. Must be nice to have faith.
That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Asia, Europe, and Africa. The gospels spread across them all, and the alignment is historically incredible compared to most texts!
There’s no hard empirical proof, but that’s the point of free will. If there was undeniable proof, you wouldn’t have much of a choice to live for God.
But you do have faith. You don’t chemically test your food to make sure it’s not poisonous every time you buy it, because there’s enough evidence for you to believe the supermarket sells good food. When you buy things online, you pay before it arrives, even though you can’t undeniably prove it will get to your door.
It’s about the evidence we have, and the conclusions we make with them. Jesus’s impact 2000 years later, all the eyewitnesses who died for his name, even just 20 years after his death we have evidence from Paul’s letters that the entire first church based their faith on his resurrection, because they saw it themselves. There’s no historical documents that contradict the main claims.
Sure there’s minor differences in the gospels, but that’s exactly what a detective would expect in a true story: slight differences that all point towards a central truth. If they were all exactly the same, it would be far more likely that the gospels were contrived.
There’s so much more evidence for than against. The only real argument against all this is that it betrays the known laws of science. But given the existence of God, those laws don’t matter. Jesus loves you brother.
It is a pretty important fact to see that they chose to die rather than say they lied. Idk about other people but if I was lying I would definitely choose to live.
Then tell me what they are? The Didache reveals that early christians, particularly preachers such as the apostles, lived in poverty and chastity, so clearly they wouldn't gain any wealth or material benefit of any kind from lying
Sure, it’s similar. But you have to analyze if there was a benefit to the scam, or if they died for truth. At the time, both Romans and Jews were killing Christians left and right. They had no political power, no armies, no land.
>But you have to analyze if there was a benefit to the scam, or if they died for truth
In hindsight? It's illogical to factor in what happened *after* they decided to claim he rose from the dead.
>At the time, both Romans and Jews were killing Christians left and right.
So they would die no matter what? Then what does their death prove?
>They had no political power, no armies, no land.
Right, and what's one great historical way to gain power? Convince people that you, your words, and your actions are backed up by divine providence. Even better if you can lie to yourself until you actually believe it.
Except Jesus and his apostles never gained any kind of power other than the Holy Spirit. Any riches that were given to them after Jesus’s death they dispersed to those in need (Acts 4:34-35).
All they had to do was not say they’re followers of Christ and they would avoid death. It would have been very easy to lie and survive.
As for Jesus, he could have stayed out of Jerusalem, built a cult, collected donations, and live a rich and long life. But he didn’t. He went to Jerusalem, knowing they wanted to kill him, and allowed them to. He did that for you.
>Except Jesus and his apostles never gained any kind of power
Stop using hindsight as an argument lol. That's like saying someone didn't bet on black because the ball ended up landing on red.
You can’t reap rewards when you knowingly walk into your death. Black or red, he died, never building land, armies, wealth, or power in his time on Earth. To say he did this for gain of some sort takes more faith than the historical documents we already have that tell us why he did those things.
>Black or red, he died, never building land, armies, wealth, or power in his time on Earth
More evidence that he wasn't a demigod. He's lucky that dumb shit took off after he died so he at least had a legacy beyond being a preachy hobo
That’s a wild take, man. Jesus literally not building land, armies, or wealth is the exact opposite of the point you think you’re making. Every wannabe demigod in history tried to grab power — kings, cult leaders, warlords, emperors. Jesus walked away from all of that. He explicitly refused it. “My kingdom is not of this world.” (John 18:36)
If He was trying to be a demigod, He did a terrible job. If He was doing exactly what He said — laying down His life as a ransom, fulfilling prophecy, and establishing a kingdom that wasn’t political — then His life lines up perfectly.
And calling Him “lucky” is insane historically. A poor Jewish carpenter with no army, no wealth, no political influence, executed in the most humiliating way possible… accidentally becomes the most influential figure in world history? Accidentally inspires billions? Accidentally becomes the foundation of Western ethics, literacy, charity, human rights, and the biggest faith on earth?
That’s not luck. That’s either divine or the single most impossible sociological explosion in human history.
Also, nobody willingly gets tortured to death to protect a lie they made up. The disciples weren’t running a grift. They died because they swore they saw Him alive again. You can reject that if you want, but pretending the whole thing was “preachy hobo gets lucky post-mortem” isn’t an argument, it’s cope.
Reddit loves acting like cynicism = intelligence. But sometimes the most “rational” take is recognizing that the guy who refused power, predicted His own death, fulfilled centuries of prophecy, and sparked a global movement after getting killed… might not just be a random dusty dude with good timing.
So they all claimed they didn’t know the guy and hid. Then something happens. Suddenly they’re willing to die for it. I wonder what that event could’ve been.
when given the option to recant or die they chose death. every time. therefore they had the simple options: recant, and their reward is to live. but if they did, they would be condemned to hell. or choose death, and be promised eternal life. it only makes sense if what they claimed was true. otherwise there is no reward or benefit to not recanting.
comparing a founded religious martyr to the literal eyewitnesses is a false equivalency
Except he came back 2 days later with the story starting with someone checking the tomb and his body was gone. He then ascended to heaven, taking his body with him.
No it's not, opposite to popular belief not that many historians say they actually believe he lived.
Several religions before christianity had the same story.
By mainstream academia as a whole, cross-discipline. Like the guy above said, Jesus’ existence is about as proven as any other historical figure from that era could be. You could obviously be an ultimate skeptic, of course we cannot ever know 100% know for sure, but then you might also be interested in Tartaria. For all you know, everything in history has been fabricated.
The roman historian Flavius Josephus wrote about him around 93CE.
There is also there are disputed claims that the Greek historian Thallus wrote about him sometime in the mid-1st century.
Also, thr Syrian philosopher Mara bar Serapion refers to someone called "the wise king of the jews" that was executed unjustly. That could be a reference to Jesus, and that was written in 73CE
That's decades after he was alledged to be born.
>Also, thr Syrian philosopher Mara bar Serapion refers to someone called "the wise king of the jews" that was executed unjustly. That could be a reference to Jesus, and that was written in 73CE
I'm sure we can find a kid named Harry Potter who was born around the same time as Harry Potter was.
I would like to point out that I am not a Christian, nor am I believer in any of the abrahamic religions.
That being said, there is a pretty extreme difference in the time scales between writing about Harry Potter and Yeshua ben Iosef. I also think you know that and are arguing in bad faith.
No I am not. There are stories about other gods written by contemporaries, like Zeus and Quetzalcoatl. Conveniently, Quetzalcoatl worship started at about the same time and we have stories about him coming to earth and doing shit.
Stories are not physical or Archaeological evidence that someone existed. It's archaeological evidence that someone wrote a story.
OK, look. I am not claiming that a god existed. I am simply stating that there is archeological and historical evidence that suggests that Yeshua, the dude, existed. I don't give a wet fart if someone thinks that dude was God or the fucking tooth fairy. Someone's misguided belief in this guy is their choice, just as it's your choice to remain ignorant about established scholarly practice when it comes to confirming historical accuracy.
It is likely that many, if not all, of the "divine" entities in history were based off of real, living human beings who had enough lies told about them for people to start believing them to be gods.
Hell, the Egyptians believed Tutankamun was a god and we literally have his corpse.
Then give me the evidence instead of just pointing to stories.
>It is likely that many, if not all, of the "divine" entities in history were based off of real, living human beings who had enough lies told about them for people to start believing them to be gods.
Many people believed Jesus was just Quetzalcoatl going west to spread his message. There is very old writing that says that.
Problem with these accounts is that it’s not direct evidence. All of them could be referring to folk lore instead of actual unbiased sources like govt records (census, official decrees, tax records, birth records, etc).
It would be like people seeing writings 2,000 years in the future about how Johnny Appleseed and John Henry existed in the ancient lands of the United States.
True, which is why it is important to cross reference. Josephus has proven to be a fairly reliable narrator, as quite a few of his writings not only match archeological data, but have matched multiple other accounts.
It doesn't mean that its 100% accurate, but it would be like someone 2000 years from now finding a story written about the Burj Khalifa, then finding the ruins of the Burj Khalifa right where the story says it should be.
No, but there is evidence of a star dying in the same timespan (±10 years IIRC), that would have been super bright in the night sky, which gives credibility to the story of the star of Bethlehem for exemple
That's not evidence that Jesus is real that's evidence of a star dying. If god was born surely he would have timed it better than +/- 10 years of when he was born.
That is also the same timeframe people began to worship Quetzalcoatl in the Americas. How do you know the star was for Jesus and not Quetzalcoatl? It's not like the star would only be in Bethlehem as the earth rotates.
Oh I'm not saying that the star WAS a sign of God. I'm saying that it is plausible that people in the area took it as a divine sign. Maybe the same event gave rise to a cult of Quetzalcoatl, but it wasn't what was discussed
And if the star was for a god; why the Christian god?
Quetzalcoatl was first worshipped around the same time of that solar eclipse and people in the Americas would also have witnessed the star as the earth rotated. Maybe the star was for Quetzalcoatl and his worshippers.
Writing=/=evidence. The Phantom of the Opera isn't real.
We also have ancient writings about other gods and their physical avatars on earth from the time, some that even predates Christianity. Are the written stories about Heracles and Zeus not evidence that they're real, by that logic? Or Quetzalcoatl?
The point is that there are secular, non Christian sources of Jesus' existence, importantly sources written within decades of his death and by both supporters and detractors. Whether Jesus existed or not is as closed as a debate as it can be about a historical figure. The contention lies in the biblical accounts of the supernatural occurrences. He is mentioned in Roman sources, a Jewish historian and a Syrian philosopher, all within the first century AD. A Jewish troublemaker named Jesus of Nazareth who was executed by the order of Pontius Pilate did exist.
Then link them.
>The contention lies in the biblical accounts of the supernatural occurrences. He is mentioned in Roman sources, a Jewish historian and a Syrian philosopher, all within the first century AD. A Jewish troublemaker named Jesus of Nazareth who was executed by the order of Pontius Pilate did exist.
The contention lies in them never using his name, just vague mentions that could be literally anybody.
So... A New Testament Scholar and a few other people say so.
The thing you linked me to is Wikipedia and the Wikipedia article doesn't even say that everyone agrees he was real.
It does talk about how there is debate and how the people who believe he is real are like Professors of Divinity and people who believe he is god.
Also; there were a lot of Christians who believed Jesus was just Quetzalcoatl who went there to spread his worship. Why would evidence of his existence not also prove the existence of the Aztec gods?
So Quetzalcoatl is real and Tezcatlipoca is the ruler of the gods because I believe so.
It's funny, I'm getting people arguing with me that I have to believe in the Christian god and magic despite my limited human understanding, but they can deny the existence of Zeus or Ishtar or Unicorns with their limited human understanding.
Not by my knowledge. It's fun to watch them twist themselves in loops trying to explain why magic only explains the existence of their favourite flavour of imaginary creatures and people but not other peoples' favourite tulpas.
Yup. That's how I see it. There could be a god or gods, there could be none. If god's too petty to take me oh the fuck well I don't want to deal with a giant all powerful man baby for eternity.
Jesus existing is quite literally not an accepted historical fact by any scientific or historical body. The evidence of his existence is shoddy at best, and fictional when it comes to the bible whose oldest book wasn't written until a generation past his death.
Catholics and Orthodox believe Mary's body is already in Heaven and thus cannot be in any earthly tomb. Plus, Jesus having a brother is heretical as well.
im an ex-catholic, even went through confirmation. i guess i didn't pay attention that day in sunday school, just now reading about "The Feast Of Assumption".
>The Feast of the Assumption is a Catholic holy day on August 15th that celebrates the belief that the Virgin Mary was taken, ***body*** and soul, into heaven at the end of her earthly life
TIL, ty
That would be how a normal person dies, not the messiah and son of God. His mother also supposedly took her body up with her. Obviously all bullshit lol.
No. The whole theological point of Jesus being resurrected is that he goes to heaven with his body. One of the key parts of Christian theology is everyone getting their bodies back at the end of the world. Jesus dying and being resurrected is supposed to be what makes that possible.
Oh, there are lots of stories of religious leaders ascending into the afterlife and conveniently leaving the body behind.
However, the Bible claims that Jesus was resurrected with a physical body that people could see and touch, and then that body literally floated up and ascended into heaven.
A physical body that could be proven to be Jesus would thusly also prove that that part of the Bible was definitively false.
Not that Jesus DIDNT ascend spiritually into heaven, just that the "infallible word of god" isn't really infallible.
Not really? There are lots of charismatic, influential teachers/gurus/cult leaders. Some of them are even founders of major world religions.
Being real doesn't necessarily mean Jesus was divine, or even divinely inspired. In my opinion, being able to definitely prove a divine act is infinitely more important than mere existence.
Also, there are enough historical records from legitimate sources that pretty much remove all doubt that the historical figure known as Yeshua ben Iosef actually existed.
Oh, I 100% agree with you. I can dig a hole in my backyard, put a nameplate that reads "Jimmy Hoffa" and then claim that Hoffa teleported bodily to the Epsilon Eridani system where all the great Mobsters go.
Doesn't make it true.
What about my comment makes you think I’m defending or debating archeological evidence for Christianity?
I’m simply pointing out OP wildly misinterpreted their own post.
Im not trying to argue, just pointing out how it could be interpreted as anti Christian.
I think it's all BS anyway. Christian history proves it to be a toxic, parasitic stain on humanity. At no point has Christianity actually been "christ-like".
Very early on, as in like 50 years after Jesus died, a historian wrote a report on the demographics of the empire and included Christianity. He called Christianity a religion for women and peasant because it was nothing but love and forgiveness and everyone goes to heaven. He also noted that they lived communally and it made a lot of sense why plebeians who flock to it. So it sounds like very very early Christianity wasn’t too bad
That interpretation would only make sense if they were claiming to have found the body of Christ. This is about an empty hole in the ground.
The main giveaway that this is overtly anti-Jew and not anti-Christian is the use of the word “sneed.”
It's already widely assumed among historians that the figure of Jesus likely existed. One book claims that bro walked on water and turned water into wine, hope it wasn't the same water. But only one book, or rather one collection of fantasy novels.
If Jesus's body was in there then that kind of disproves that whole "came back to life thing" which is one of the central tenants of Christianity. Jews disbelieve Christ existed, they just don't believe he was a messiah or the literal son of God.
No one was claiming Jesus’ body was there, so that’s irrelevant. This is about an empty hole in the ground. The use of the term “sneed” is also an anti-Jewish dog whistle. It’s pretty clear what they meant.
I think the existence of Christians is enough to prove the existence of Christianity… Honestly, Jews don’t really care much about Jesus at all, and even if they did find a tomb for him, all it would mean is that he was a person that existed which many people still believe regardless and in no way is him having been a real person mean that he was the Messiah or whatever else people try to make him out to be.
I am also, they always come in with a preconceived notion of what something is and it conveniently disappears before someone intelligent can disprove it
And if it is disproven it's just "Satan creating lies so God can test our faith" like how some Christians believe dinosaur bones were placed there by Satan to fool non-believers.
There's always a logical explanation when you don't know that logic is 😉
Faith is illogical by definition, you can't assert a truth without proof. If there were proof, it would be called "fact".
Religious faith isn’t about “truth,” it’s about belief.
It’s literally in the definition, “strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.”
That they specifically value that they believe without evidence or reasons and act like that’s a virtue. By believing when they have no reason to somehow gets them extra jewels on the crown in heaven or whichever version they believe. I believe without evidence confidence with no reason for doing so is something in every other situation doesn’t make you a good person and people understand it usually makes you stupid and reckless. The faith behavior infects other things and critical thinking skills. It’s not that they value the belief. They specifically value having no reason to believe and that the less reason you have to believe means your faith is stronger and that’s supposed to be good. Even tests of faith can be summed up as, “I started to question things but you know what, when I stopped questioning them and returned to what I was raised on since change is uncomfortable, now I feel so much better! We should all never question it, that’s why we have faith”
youre right but there very much is this weird obsession with "proving" that all of these faith based things are empirically true. im from a small midwestern town and even though i am not christian i grew up going to catholic school.
i have some theories why, but people were always trying to "save" me by trying to prove christianity was true. this ranged from "articles" about carbon dating wood from noahs ark to documentaries about the age of the earth.
it was always really uncomfortable. i think instead of just saying "i dont need proof i have my faith" some people get confused and think that if they can just fit their faith into the scientific method then they will "win" or something
Okay, that doesn’t justify the fact that basically none of the claims the Bible makes can be proven. There’s faith, and there’s what the Bible says, which if you are a Christian, you have to believe is true. If you believe, the Bible is a factual account of history.
its blurry here. but what if comes down to is just kinda changing the meaning of the word "fact." which is a strategy that seems to work for a lot of people
my childhood best friend went hard down the right wing christianity toilet bowl a couple years ago. this is a guy who posts religious quotes from youtube priests on facebook every day (along with warnings about "the left") and every time trump does something that clearly doesnt line up with christian values he says that its just a test of his faith and that its part of gods plan.
its as demented as it is just really stupid.
he has also told me that he "doesnt read books"
do with that what you will
i want to add that he was also actively proud of not reading books. "theyre just not for me." is a wild thing to say about fucking BOOKS.
every time he wants to make a point he sends me some 3 min long youtube video where half of it is someone trying to sell me something. apparently that is "doing your own research." but if i send him a primary source he responds with "i have kids and a job and dont have time to read all of this." its usually like maybe 4 pages of text. i think the problem for him is he doesnt know what to do with something that isnt already telling him he's right. he needs that "ATHEIST GETS DESTROYED BY PASTOR WITH FACTS AND LOGIC" in order to invest his time.
You'll be surprised not surprised by Christian grifts. I've seen so many DiY Christian books about what a story from the Bible means that it makes me think how much they actually take part in reading the bubble themselves. It reminds me of how often ill get something how to draw or how to paint for beginners without actually drawing or painting, like just getting off the dopamine rush of thinking you're genuinely doing something productive.
I have lots of friends and family members that are Christian and I’ll never look down on them for their spirituality, but the “the Bible mentioned this real world event and it was true so all the supernatural stuff must also be true” shit fucking kills me.
Yeah, I always think it’s funny how they point to stuff like the “burnt” peak of Mount Sinai as proof that the Bible is true. Anyone could’ve easily saw that, and then made up a story about how god totally descended there in fire and burnt the mountain. It’s all about confirmation bias.
I have no idea why you have so many downvotes but you can have my orange arrow, Biblical archaeology is a crap shoot with a good portion of analysis desperately trying to prove Old Testament tales and produce relics. Funnily enough I've heard people say it has gotten worse in recent years rather than better, but I don't want to conflate perfectly reasonable archaeologists with bible belt analysts.
I don’t really care about fictitious internet points that much, if they want to seethe they can seethe. I think it’s gotten worse because it’s easier than ever now to disprove their bullshit with more advanced technology and research techniques.
Fair enough, I actually meant the reverse, that bad analysis and conflating fiction with evidence has increased, perhaps due to internet echo chambers and the increase in christian oligarchs in America particularly. There was a reasonably good patch in the mid 20th century where theologians and Christian scholars were trying to fit their picture into more mainstream historical narratives.
Yeah, Christians will say “we found evidence that proves the Bible” and when we actually look at the “evidence” in question, all it does it show the Bible is fanfic.
Yeah. It pretty clear people in this thread haven't read the Bible. Finding his tomb and being able to somehow prove it was him would be catastrophic to Christianity since the Bible says Jesus's body ascended to heaven after his resurrection.
How would that contradict Christianity? He died, buried in a tomb, 3 days later rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. A proven tomb doesn’t discredit that
Kind of makes you wonder what the point of the resurrection even was if people's souls go there after they die anyway. Tbh to me it sounds like the Bible needed a season 3 but it never got renewed, so we get stuck with that shit ending.
It’s actually in Kentucky, I’ve been there. It’s crazy how people actually believe that it could realistically hold 2 of every species of land animal, while being worked by a crew of, what, 8 people? Who have to store food, feed every animal every day, and clean their waste. Biblical literalists actually believe this nonsense and will justify it by saying that “there were less animals in the ark than there are now that have adapted to new environments.” They will admit evolution exists (it would realistically be much, much slower than the few thousand years ago they claim Noah’s ark happened) to justify this child’s story that they stole from other religions.
I can't understand these arguments. You are talking about a supernatural flood, ordered by an omnipotent God, and your criteria for why this is not possible is logistics? God can magically create all the food and take care of every need those people and animals have for the period the flood lasted.
It all hinges on whether God exists or not, if He does, it's silly to question pretty much any event in the Bible because "thats not normally possible"
Have you ever experienced something actually magical?
If I have to believe in something that doesn't exist and no one has ever experienced and accept it is real in order to argue with you; why don't you try arguing from a standpoint where magic doesn't exist?
Do you think Unicorns are real? What about other gods?
Hqve you ever experienced nuclear fusion? Not the after effects, the actual process. What about the expansion of the universe?
Your line of reasoning is in line with pre-science flat earthers, I don't see it = it's not there
No but I can find videos of people who have experienced it and documentation of it.
>Your line of reasoning is in line with pre-science flat earthers, I don't see it = it's not there
But we can literally see it and have actual evidence, like plane flight paths and photos from space. I can go look up content by people who understand how it works that I trust and find that information out for myself.
You cannot do that with magic.
If you lived during the stone age would you ridicule someone who claims the earth wasn't flat? Even though nobody could observe it, or had the tools to prove it?
What you can or can't empirically verify does not constitute truth, its one of the tools we can use to derive truth but not the only one.
We are not in the stone age and I cannot tell you what I would or would not have thought in the stone age. If proof of magic being real came out I would change my mind. If you have proof and can show it to me; show it to me.
Do you believe in Unicorns and Zeus?
My whole line of argumentation is that assuming truth is only what we humans can definitely prove or experience is fallacious and arrogant. I fully believe there are heights of knowledge we will never understand or even find out about. We are far too prideful because we managed to create some household appliances and what else.
Do you believe in Zeus or Unicorns? Yes or no? If I have to believe in things I can't see, that would include all the other gods, like Quetzalcoatl and Hades, not just the one you want me to believe exists because magic might exist. I would have to believe in aliens, too.... And reptilians.
That is ignorant on your part, to assume that all Gods are the same, and all religions have the same worldview.
The god of the Bible has good arguments for its existence, while the other religions do not.
If you default to "well it talks about supernatural events so it can't be true", that is fallacious thinking because you impose your worldview (materialism I assume), on another and then reject its claim by basically stating "im right so you must be wrong".
First you must start with a blank slate and an open mind, for all you know, miracles could be possible, just exceedingly rare.
Do you have another argument against God other than "I didn't see it personally or trust anyone who said they did"?
I am asking why I have to only believe in your god and not theirs?
>The god of the Bible has good arguments for its existence, while the other religions do not.
He literally came down as a burning bush and talked to people according to the bible.
Because the metaphysics of their worldview aren't internally coherent. They do not sufficiently explain the human condition.
A worldview must explain:
Why anything exists rather than nothing
What kinds of things are fundamentally real (material, immaterial, abstract, personal, impersonal)
Whether reality is ultimately one or many (unity/plurality problem)
Whether the universe is contingent or necessary
Only Christianity sufficiently explains all of these at once, remaining internally coherent.
No. In the Aztec religion it explains all that too. So does every other religion on the face of the planet.
Jews don't believe in Jesus despite believing in the same god. I don't have to follow your religion in order to believe in your god.
There are old stories that say that Jesus was just Quetzalcoatl going west for a little bit to spread his worship and the worship of the Aztec gods. So all that shit in the bible is just Quetzalcoatl.
>Only Christianity sufficiently explains all of these at once, remaining internally coherent.
How do you know that with your limited human understanding? You could be wrong too.
No, it does not. You can't just state it out of ignorance (all religions are the same)
And the jews are wrong, they no longer believe in the same God because they rejected him.
How I know? Well you can look up the TAG line of argumentation and see for yourself. It follows logically to exclude every single word view except 1
So you can't prove it and won't apply the same logic you want me to apply to a being you believe exists to a being you don't want to believe in because it would go against your limited human worldview?
>How I know? Well you can look up the TAG line of argumentation and see for yourself. It follows logically to exclude every single word view except 1
Then link it to me.
Also isn't that just a line of argumentation written by other people? How do you know they know if they're also just people?
I literally told you to research about TAG and you probably didn't even do a 2 min Google search or asked chatgpt about what it is, no you just ran here to say "oh so you can't prove it".
If you are dishonest then there's no point in any of this.
I can't believe in one magical being I can't see without seeing another.
>TAG and you probably didn't even do a 2 min Google search or asked chatgpt about what it is, no you just ran here to say "oh so you can't prove it".
Then link it to me. Or explain it to me and why I should believe those flawed humans that you agree with and not the flawed humans I disagree with.
https://youtu.be/Z7gHE8HUVZ8?si=3-J80NzWJmIwYkHK
You should believe in flawed humans when they use good methods of arriving at truth, which we call logic. I never stated we should not believe humans, I only stated thay ONLY believing in what you or someone else can empirically prove is not good enough.
If Christianity was started by Quetzalcoatl fucking off to Nazareth, why can't the logic you say to prove that Christianity exists not be used to explain the Aztec religion? If Jesus was Quetzalcoatl as a lot of Christians believed when they came to the new world... Would the evidence you use to say Christianity is real not also be evidence of the Aztec Gods being real?
How do you know for sure Jesus and Quetzalcoatl aren't the same? Do you have any evidence to say for sure he's not just an Aztec god who went to the Middle East?
Dude I don't believe in just any generic "god". The god I believe in has very specific properties that identify him.
Did the aztec God speak to moses and the rest of the prophets of the old testament? Is he triune in nature? Did he incarnate as a man, died, and came back to life 3 days later then ascended to heaven? Does he even have the same concept of morality as Jesus?
Why I don't believe what you said? Because the 2 religions make mutually incompatible claims. You cannot believe in contradictions so thats easy to answer.
Christians said he did.
>Did he incarnate as a man, died, and came back to life 3 days later then ascended to heaven? Does he even have the same concept of morality as Jesus?
Yes, he came back as a king who claimed to be Quetzalcoatl that we have physical evidence of his existence.
Yes, he did. When he went to Jerusalem to be born as Jesus.
Yes he did. He abhored human sacrifice and outlawed it, and if he was Jesus; then he literally said everything Jesus said. Because they would be one and the same.
Just because you found some other god who happened to have ressurection in their myths does not equate them.
Christians said he did what?
And he clearly was not Jesus, who was against idol worship and polytheism. I havent heard anything about Quetzalcoatl refering to himself as the only true God or that he is triune in nature
I highly doubt they did but I'll get back to you after giving that a look.
Also how do you know definitively that Jesus isn't just Quetzalcoatl gone west? Did you study magic to learn its limitations or are you just guesstimating here?
Whats your source of information on Jesus Christ? For me it's the Bible and church tradition. In that source of information, its clearly stated who Jesus is.
Can you conjure up even a single argument where it would make sense to doubt the origin story told in the Bible and instead believe in something completely unheard of until this reddit conversation?
I know you know this doesn't even make sense, if I was arguing with you about the origin of spiderman you wouldn't tell me that he didn't get bit by a spider, because thats the canonical story of his origin.
Similarly the Bible is the canonical origin story of Jesus Christ, so it should be the matter we should discuss, not random made up scenarios
So you have no evidence. How do you know that Jesus wasn't Quetzalcoatl?
There is also a slave bible. That Christians ripped all the passages out of that could inspire rebellion in the slaves.
Would a church that believes the bible is the word of god do something like that?
Dude it's a waste of time.
If I tell you that 1 and 2 are not the same because they are different numbers you tell me I have no evidence.
The evidence is the whole concept of what God is. Can you even tell me what Christianity teaches about God? Please do so at least I know if you have anything to add to this discussion
The proof is very simple:
Quetzalcóatl was understood as:
* One of the gods who created the world.
* A major participant in the creation of *humankind*. In the Aztec creation myths, Quetzalcóatl descends into the underworld (Mictlan), retrieves the bones of past races of humans, and—after sacrificing his own blood—brings people back to life.
Now this is who Jesus is understood as:
* The Son of the trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, who are all co-eternal and co-equal).
* Fully human, fully divine
* The only God, every other "god" mentioned in the bible is a false god, a demon.
They are clearly different identities, arguing that they are the same is just silly.
The LSD was founded specifically on the idea that Jesus was Quetzalcoatl.
They're all Christians, correct? If some Christians believe he is Quetzalcoatl why should I believe your specific branch and not theirs when they use the same story to argue that Quetzalcoatl is Jesus?
The LSD is a heretical sect, that mainstream christianity (catholic, orthodox, protestant) do not consider as being christian. They also have a really small % of population as believers compared to the groups I just mentioned. So you will take the opinion of 0.76–0.8% who have wildly different beliefs compared to the norm?
You have no evidence that they're not. We have evidence that bible passages have been removed or added in bibles that were circulated by the church
Which edition of the bible is the right one? Is it the Protestant one? The Catholic? Ukrainian Orthodox?
Dude it's a waste of time.
If I tell you that 1 and 2 are not the same because they are different numbers you tell me I have no evidence.
The evidence is the whole concept of what God is. Can you even tell me what Christianity teaches about God? Please do so at least I know if you have anything to add to this discussion
"Nothing" suggests there is no potential for existence, If there is potential whether realised or not this is not "nothing" therefore a reality with nothing isn't a reality in the first place
In a reality that was already made. You did not explain why potential had to exist either. There could have simply not been anything at all. So why is anything?
I forgot to add to the list of things to be explained:
The future will resemble the past
The laws of nature are stable
Cause and effect relationships are real
How objects maintain identity through time
How change is possible without loss of identity
Why discrete objects exist rather than a continuous flux
The existence of universals: properties (redness), kinds (cats), relations (larger than)
That abstract objects are real in some form, or explain how language/concepts work without them
Laws of logic (which are abstract universal principles)
And more. You get the idea
The story doesn't say that though and the idea of a supernatural god doing this makes no sense, he might as well teleport them all to a safe high island. Noah was a man who did the bidding of god to save the animals from the flood, not to have a deus ex machina infinite food cheat.
I’m basing this off of actual arguments I have heard in favor of Noah’s ark growing up in an ultra conservative Christian environment. At the ark replica, they actually argue that it is possible for the human beings on the ark to have done all of the work and talk about food storage and everything. It’s wild.
Wasn't it 7 of each unclean animal and 2 of each clean animal? I think it's to do with having things to sacrifice in offering to God but I may not be remembering correctly
https://arkencounter.com/plan-your-visit/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paidsearch&utm_campaign=cqr&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19704023025&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_8TJBhDNARIsAPX5qxTwzCpPd9wlZXb7ipruyWBCXZgXCEYlWez_UkhP-FI7aSy4h-LWJVkaAm1fEALw_wcB
Nah the Ark is right there bro. Complete with humans co existing with dinosaurs on exhibit
Jesus was executed as a criminal, that tomb looks like a tomb they would put “somebody” in. It’s decorated. Jesus’s tomb would not look like that. Jesus’s tomb would be a hole. It probably looked like every other Jewish tomb of the day. They didn’t know he was going to die until the day before so how could his followers build an elaborate tomb for him in such a short amount of time.
The rich nobleman who also condemned to death? Is there an explanation as to why a member of the Sanhedrin, who were Jesus’s enemy, gave him his tomb? I feel like that is a conspiracy that hasn’t been explored yet. What if the Romans and Sanhedrin conspired to make Jesus rise from the dead to fulfill the prophecy and spread the Jewish religion around the world? Cuz that’s what happened. Jewish light for the Romans so that they could control the population through one gos instead of many.
The people did live in their time and were revered enough contemporarily to have some sort of ornate burial place. The rest of it is definitely up to individual interpretation though.
The post is anti-Christian saying that the body of Christ was found (contradicts a core tenet of Christianity), and Jews were just scared of Christians "chimping out" if they found out.
"could this be... The legendary tomb if jesus and his disciples? My god the implications this discovery has... Oh wait thats the neighbors kids buried dog, whoops"
Its always shit like this
“Hate” is when you say something bad about my oppressive illogical religion
https://preview.redd.it/vpe2kqfl685g1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45cb099618a3702917e0eeb997203d503040308a
Yeah that's definitely hate ... especially when it blinds you so much that you take something someone you agree with did and you genuenly convince yourself it was the other side. Because you other them so much in your hate that your brain goes 'thing bad = thing from them' eventhough it was someone attempting to agree with you.....
How ? Are you dumb? The post celebrates that this investigation that you yourself said was short and bullshit - apperently completly disproves Jesus' being anything else than a regular preaching man. How can your hate make you blind enough that your synapses misfire and make you think 'hmm yes bad research work that is bad, that disproves important parts of Christianity must be actually pro Christian because, bad = Christian hurr durr'
How can one be so blinded by hate?
It says “btfo your entire religion” meaning they found Jesus’ tomb. The OOP never says if Jesus’ body is there, though, which leads me to believe that when he says “BTFOs your entire religion” it’s referring to other religions I.e. Islam, Judaism etc. as a “proof” of Christianity. I assume that OOP is implying that the Israelis are trying to cover up the tomb as a means to hide the existence of Jesus because they didn’t believe he was the son of god. I could be wrong, and the story is definitely made up, which is what I’m pointing out. I’m saying that I believe that is implied because of stuff I’ve heard from ultra Christian contemporaries who claim this shit.
it's funny, in this thread, because so many butthurt people are downvoting against the upvotes, that most of your comments have that little ✝ symbol, which in this context seems like it's a tally of Christ points
Most historians agree that Jesus probably existed, finding a tomb doesn't prove anything.
Whether or not he could respawn after death and walk on water is another story though.
If Jesus existing is proof of Christianity's existence, then by the same logic other religions are legitimate by the same standard.
Other religions exist, get a grip instead of whining when people point it out.
Nobody said Jesus existing was proof of Christianity being true. There being “more proof” of Muhammad’s existence doesn’t make Jesus less of a historical person.
This is the second time where you've elected to pretend that I'm saying that Jesus wasn't historical.
It must be so exhausting to decide to be upset about things you make up about other people.
Feel free to continue arguing with yourself, there's no point in talking to you if you're going to read what I say and then decide that I've said something else.
I'm self aware enough to know that I assumed the guy I was talking to was saying it in support of Christianity.
This is based on the exaggerated language of "one of the most proven historical figures" as well as saying he's "our Savior", and ending their comment with, case sensitive, "AMEN".
Meanwhile you're making up that I was arguing about whether or not Jesus is historical because you're intellectual bankrupt and don't care about arguing any particular point beyond "I'm right and you're wrong."
I'm telling you this in hopes that you internalize it and become an honest person in your life, but as of now trying to continue any sort of discussion with a person like you is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, the pig will just enjoy the attention while the longer you engage in it the worst you look.
Learn from this, or not, up to you.
I headcanon that god wake up and decide what sex \[♀️♂️⚧️\] they have for the day...sometimes its bearded man other times is hot lady ans then some other other times is just both at the same time , none of the 2 or something way beyond human comprehension.
Anyway thank for coming to my ted talk
https://preview.redd.it/wbphqrugw65g1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9fc3341cefbf2ad3ee6d5c0c6581c1b48e3ea66a
Why would Jews want to avoid extremely pissing off Christians everywhere? Holocaust 2.0? Maybe "the people who crucified Jesus" didn't want to also be "the people that erased the divinity of Jesus"...
There is the old perception that the Jewish people were responsible for Jesus getting crucified. It is one of the main contributors to the animosity that Christians have had towards Jews both in history and in modern times.
On top of that the Jewish people have been an unpopular minority wherever they go for hundreds of years. Very recently there has been better relations between Christians and Jews, likely due to sympathy regarding the Holocaust.
So the reasoning is that Jews wouldn't want to risk pissing off Christians by undermining their whole religion, and potentially causing a "chimping out" or "Holocaust 2.0."
Maybe being an unpopular minority that has been targeted by Christians many times made them apprehensive about pissing Christians off by undermining their religion?
The saying "it doesn't have legs" for an idea that doesn't work is an Anglicized version of a Yiddish saying, "it can't fly, and it can't walk."
The context for this was an old Rabbinical statement about Jesus on the cross: he didn't get down and walk off, and he didn't fly off, so logically speaking, he probably just stayed there and died.
I think that’s sort of the point he’s trying to make: in that rabbinical understanding, dead is dead, and if he didn’t magically escape at the last minute, there’s no sense in even addressing the resurrection allegation. It’s an idea that they intrinsically think “doesn’t have legs,” to bring it back around.
iirc in christian beliefs he shouldn't have a body. He was crucified, then ressurected and ascended into the heavens, his body is not supposed to exist on earth, but in heaven.
Partly correct, which is still correct.
There exist(ed) several catholic relics claiming to be Jesus foreskin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce?wprov=sfla1
Catholics are really weird.
Also a single ampule of dirt and Jesus Blood. Considering the context of where that one came from, it actually could be legit, so that's.... interesting.
I recently visited Turkey and Topkapi palace has an exhibit that supposedly contains relics of the prophet. I saw a jewel encrusted box said to contain one of [Muhammad's teeth](https://i.imgur.com/5f3NuAL.jpeg) and another with one of his [beard hairs](https://i.imgur.com/F4jCO1o.jpeg).
Exactly. If the body of Jesus is found the religion of Christianity and Islam will be proven false since they both believe Jesus ascended. Why would Israelis block this lol
\> misses the mark by a mile
\> gets corrected
\> "being snarky at me don't mean anything"
it means enough to you that you HAD to respond. you could've just left it if you didn't give a shit about how wrong you were.
The biblical account says that Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea who was a believer and relinquished his tomb for Jesus. That’s where the story of the angel pushing the stone aside so that Mary Magdalene could go inside.
if true, Joseph sure got a lucky deal on that one -- got to get his name down as the one who volunteered his tomb to Jesus, and still got to keep his tomb after a three day hiatus :)
"For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it."
Literally one of the primary themes of Christianity. You will keep the things you give away and lose the things you fight to keep
>Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
> Deuteronomy 25:11,12
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
>Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
>For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Or does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was indeed written for our sake, for whoever plows should plow in hope and whoever threshes should thresh in hope of a share in the crop.
In Corinthians, Paul explains that much in the law of Moses contains lessons beyond the literal translation. There's probably a good lesson about cruelty in the milk law.
>You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. You will be hated by all for my name's sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives.
Actually he promises that you will live.
> Exodus 4:24–26
At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him. But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it. “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said. So the Lord let him alone.
> 2 Kings 2:23,24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled 42 of the boys.
I assumed they meant his real final resting place was in a mass grave. Obviously the biblical account isn't true because people can't come back to life or ascend to heaven
> Actually historians
This likely refers exclusively to Bart Ehrman, whom Reddit anon has been fangirling over since turning fourteen and thinking Nietzsche wrote so much as a single intelligent word.
Bart is the most accessible middle of the road scholar who was Christian for the majority of his career, people that don't like him are fundamentalist and conservatives who soy out at the idea thinking beyond what they taught you in sunday school.
So you trust google but not a reddit post on greentext which is a screenshot of a post on the anonymous site 4chan? Ok buddy, next u saying the earth is a sphere
This entire story is absolutely fake. There are numerous ancient tombs supposed to be of Jesus, with none confirmed. I don't know about the apartment block over it but this tomb in the photo is an archeological site that's well documented and not built over. Overall this is an extremely fake and very possibly gay post.
The part that I don't understand is why the hell would Jews want to hide the tomb of Christ? They already reject the divinity of Jesus, if anything this would be throwing a bone at Christianity by keeping this a secret.
Its got an inscription with the name of a guy called Jesus anda women called Mary so some people think its his tomb which is like finding a gravestone with George on it and thinking its the tomb of George washington
It's like finding a gravestone with George, son of Augustine on it next to one with Martha, wife of George on it and others with the same names as Martha's kids on them. It could obviously still be chance but it's not just the one name
Bold of you to assume the excavators get paid.
All the money goes straight to the church or the nearest Televangelist, while the excavators, archaeologists and surveyors get their salary in breadcrumbs, weak toilet wine and a single graham cracker.
Its hard to take Christians seriously because every 5 seconds theres some "holy shit thing from Bible real" and then it turns out theres no evidence for it
Multiple brothers and sisters mentioned in the Bible, but according to Catholic doctrine they were children of Joseph from a previous marriage and Mary remained immaculate and a virgin for her entire life. Needless to say, that position is not shared by protestant denominations.
I have no idea where you got that from. My whole life I've been told by catholics that these people are called "brothers" and "sisters" by Christ because it used to be something you'd call close people back in the day. Which hasn't changed a bit, since nowadays we call our closest friends, "bro" and "sis"
I mean, the other commentor isn't wrong. The Catholics maintain that Mary remained virgin, the Protestants do not.
The understanding that Jesus had genetic siblings comes from passages like Matthew 12:46–50, where his mother and brothers (which could be translated as brothers and sisters) are waiting for him outside, to which he responds "Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Since he makes a distinction between those who are waiting for him outside and the people he is preaching to, it is rather clear that he is referring to actual family.
Yeah but catholics will see that and say he is referring to the man as "brother" because he is a friend of Jesus, not because he is his biological brother.
According to gnosticism, some of the apostles were his brothers. They even claim John the Baptist was one of the Messiahs, as in the Messiah who would bring rebellion to the Roman Republic and liberate the Jews.
There's a whole rabbit hole on that topic, since it was supposedly written in early manuscripts. Needless to say, I know close to nothing about it lol.
On that note, I recently learned (again) that "Christ" is just a title (iirc something like "the anointed one"). His name would have been Jesus (or Joshua) of Nazareth, IF they had bothered to give him a last name. Which is very doubtful.
Even more fun, "Christos" usually means specifically anointed with oils, and "Jesus" is just one way of saying the name "Yeshuah" which means that a *technically* valid translation of "Jesus Christ and his Disciples" could be "Oily Josh and His Bros"
I dunno Duke is just a title for a rich english person or something but that didn't stop someone from naming a kid in my high school Duke. Or stop him from being a tremendous shitbag.
I also know a dude with the last name of King who is from Cleveland, the least kingly of cities.
Since both Mary and Joseph have ancestral ties to the House of David, I've heard it said that the family could have occasionally used "ben David" as a sort of clan name, rather than just "son of Joseph."
It's been AGES since my "Bible as Literature" course in college, but I believe this naming convention was somehow tied to his later use of Son of Man as an allegorical title.
Lmao.
So yeah, that was just my perspective as a native Arabic speaker. His name in Arabic would be المسيح عيسى (Yesu [the] Messiah) so that made me think that Christ meant Messiah, and a quick Google search confirmed it for me.
All of this because I saw a YouTube short of AmaLee thinking Christ was his family name lmao
Why would it be named Jesus of Nazareth? That wasn't his name.
The tomb story was a fabrication written years after his death. Blasphemy would have the body thrown in a ditch, no marker.
Jesus was Jewish.
It's likely he rather called his friends "bro" than an actual brother. In any case Catholics believe Mary was forever virgin, so they might've only been from Joseph's previous marriage (if there was any, we don't know about it)
In theory yes, but there’s a lot standing in the way of any decisive declaration.
For comparison, look at the discovery of King Richard III’s skeleton in 2012. To determine that the skeleton was his, experts assessed mitochondrial DNA from his living descendants, cross-referenced wounds on the skeleton with historical record of the Battle of Bosworth Field, and studied maps to identify where the monastery he was buried once stood. *That* was a huge production. Now remember that the historical Jesus died more than 1,400 years before Richard III, has no known or verifiable direct descendants living today, and while Jesus is one of the most documented people in history, that documentation comes from people who either revered Jesus as the messiah or scorned him as a threat to Roman rule or a heretic to Jewish teaching, so it’s hard to know what to take at face value.
Basically, if you discovered the resting place of the historical Jesus, you would need skeletal remains that displayed evidence of crucifixion (holes in the palms and *maybe* marks on the ribs consistent with a stab wound, if he really was stabbed by Longinus or another Roman soldier on the cross), burial conditions consistent with someone who lived in relative poverty (Jesus didn’t have wealth and was viewed as a criminal by Roman authorities. He wouldn’t have an elaborate tomb, and his disciples wouldn’t build one for him because, well, that would defeat the purpose), and you would need to test the skeletal remains and other materials to make sure that he lived in the correct time. Even if you did all that, there were a ton of people who died on the cross and were buried in modest graves.
TL;DR if anybody found the resting place of Jesus, good luck to them on proving it.
People go crazy trying to find the “Tomb of Jesus” as if we don’t already know where it is to a high degree of certainty. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher was built by Constantine 300 years after Jesus’ death. He had an entire religion worshipping him during those 300 years, so it’s not like it was forgotten to time in the meantime. The tomb was underneath a pagan temple built by Hadrian, which is exactly the Roman MO for dealing with a holy site of a rival religion.
The only reason there is even a debate to the location is that Protestants don’t want to believe that the most holy site in their religion belongs to the Catholics. All other possible locations are fanfic tier and they all start with the cope that early Christians purposefully lied to the Romans about the location of the tomb and then forgot about it. Jesus has been worshipped for 2000 years straight. If there was another plausible location, it wouldn’t have been forgotten.
Christcucks are hilarious. Israel can destroy the toe of Jesus and they'll still demand that Westerners demand to Israeli taxation, tribute and thought policing.
The debate over the Talpiot Tomb, the name of this thing, is absolutely fascinating because of all the disciplines involved: history, theology, linguistics, statistics, and forensics all working in conjunction.
Unfortunately, people have been trying to themselves to this thing and add new, ever more obscure “discoveries” to it ever since it was discovered and it has turned into a mess.
Jesus was a real person there is no doubt about that in the historical community. The doubt comes about whether or not he is god. I am not religious btw so I don't have the bias. Look into it if you want. Maybe start with tacitus.
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MalyceAforethought@reddit
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MalyceAforethought@reddit
PrivilegeCheckmate@reddit
MalyceAforethought@reddit
Submarine_Pirate@reddit
MalyceAforethought@reddit
wyro5@reddit
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iSQUISHYyou@reddit
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iSQUISHYyou@reddit
ThimbleK96@reddit
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Penorl0rd4@reddit
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posting_drunk_naked@reddit
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gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
gylz@reddit
OneMoreName1@reddit
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