There are no loopholes for big trucks. They have their own cafe standards and even before then only HD trucks were exempt (2500+ trucks) and those don't sell nearly as much as the half tons (f150, 1500, tundra) which always fell under cafe regulations
Its funny seeing people be this wrong. A large share of these fuel savings [produced by the CAFE standards] has been offset by increased vehicle weight and power. In the United States, our shift toward bigger vehicles has negated 40 percent of the fuel savings unlocked in the wake of the Obama-era CAFE standards. That’s a lot of gas!
This makes no sense. If cafe says by 2020 a manufacturer has to have a fleet avg of 30 mpg, how do larger vehicles somehow provide some benefit. If they sell 100 suvs and 20 compact cars the avg will skew toward the larger vehicle. Do you not understand basic math?
It makes sense if large "work" vehicles are excluded, and this is done by idiotically defining those as any car or truck above a certain footprint/weight. Then everyone buys those gargantuan monstrosities.
Are you serious with this comment? The problem people have with CAFE is the loophole that allows bigger trucks and cars to be made to skirt the requirements not that anyone is complaining their cars goes further on less gas.
They can still buy smaller cars that use less gas.
If reddit was actually correct about Cafe standards causing companies to build more big SUVs and trucks (they're not), this change should open up the companies to build more small cars since the standards will be less for them.
However that won't actually happen because companies build big trucks and SUVs because that's what people want.
Why is a v6 a requirement. No small trucks will have a v6 and in midsized category the v6 is only standard in the nissam frontier. The ranger comes stock with a 4 cylinder and you can option a v6.
Companies don't want to build small cars. They lobbied for the loopholes that allow them to build bigger cars without penalty. The bonus is they get to pretend it's cafe that prevents them from building small cars when in reality small cars are less profitable.
It's not that black and white since manufacturers played pricing games and created a self fulfilling prophecy.
Here's an example, a Tiguan was about the same price as a Jetta Wagon over a decade ago. These were both were german imports for the US market so they weren't pricing them in that way due to costs related to anything along those lines. What regular joe is picking the small wagon over the SUV?
Every manufacturer had a similar situation in their lineups.
Shut up yal are creating scenarios to fit your narrative. Cafe is in place to hold manufacturers accountable for fuel mileage. There are no loopholes for larger vehicles
There is quite literally a separate fuel economy graph for calculating fuel economy standards for "light trucks" (under 8500lb gvwr) than the one for normal cars that give them massive leeway.
For example for 2025 a Honda pilot has ~50sqft footprint, and has to meet ~40mpg on the light truck chart (cafe mpg not real world), a normal car with the same footprint has to hit ~55.
A normal car with the same "footprint" would fall under the light trucks category. Also how is that any loophole, it still has mandated targets it has to meet amd nobody is forcing consumers to buy trucks and suvs. Tell me how cafe for larger trucks is some sort of get over scam for manufacturers when they still have to meet am overall mpg standard whether they sell all trucks or all cars. Hell, wouldnt it be easier to meet the cafe standards if companies only sold 3 cylinder compact cars? Hmm I wonder why they don't just do that. People surely would buy millions of compact and economy cars
>Federal regulations define a light-duty truck to be any motor vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating (curb weight plus payload) of no more than 8,500 pounds (3,860 kg) which is “(1) Designed primarily for purposes of transportation of property or is a derivation of such a vehicle, or (2) Designed primarily for transportation of persons and has a capacity of more than 12 persons, or (3) Available with special features enabling off-street or off-highway operation and use.”
The whole thing is a loophole because the manufacturers lobbied for it, back when they passed CAFE they lobbied for "light trucks" to have separate, less strict standards.
They sold it as "oh these are work vehicles we need to keep them affordable", but in the decades since they have slowly expanded the definition of "light truck" through more lobbying to the point every other crossover on the road is one.
Remember the infamous PT cruiser being a "light truck"? They were rightfully attacked for it, rather than make the car more efficient they just made it fit the (at the time slightly different) light truck classification.
> Hell, wouldnt it be easier to meet the cafe standards if companies only sold 3 cylinder compact cars?
No because it's more expensive and involved to develop more efficient engines than it is to stuff existing technology into a larger car. The regulation keeps getting stricter so they do have to develop, but it significantly slows the rate needed. It's also most of the reason everything has ballooned in size, specifically when said footprint regulations went into place. It's no coincidence that the late 2000s, early 2010s exactly lines up with seemingly every legacy nameplate grew a size class.
> BTW here's the definition of a lihjt truck and it mentions nothing about footprint
You have it backwards, by being a "light truck" you get to meet different EPA standards, not the other way around.
Just to be clear, I think this whole situation is bullcrap, it makes nobody happy, people who like big cars or big engines get screwed into downsized turbo engines, people who like small sporty cars are screwed over because small car has to be extra efficient, even people whoe like small eco cars get screwed over because bean counters want to push the higher margin large cars, which double up due to their CAFE advantage.
It makes sense for them to have different standards what teuck can get 55 mpg. Why should trucks have the same standards as vehicles half rhe size. Again, none of it matters, they still have to actually meet the standards which are set by congress. Instead of doing all of this wouldnt it have been way cheaper and faster to just lobby to get rid of all the fines or something... o wait. Maybe you'll get it one day
> Literally nothing you said explains how selling trucks is some loophole that makes manufacturers more money or something
It's just 2 steps that make people see it as a long game conspiracy.
1. Manufacturers lobby for light trucks to have lower emissions requirements, citing need for affordable work vehicles to exist.
Fair enough in theory.
2. Manufacturers slowly lobby to expand definition of "light trucks", situations like PT Cruiser counting as "light truck", and now today where a fucking Honda CRV is a "light truck".
This is the exact conspiracy people are talking about, get a seemingly logical and well intentioned carve-out in the law, then over 5 decades turn up the heat and abuse it to slowly put every other consumer in one of those "its just for work trucks, 'exception'" vehicles.
So. The fuck. What. If Honda releases a work spec crv that seats 12 people and weighs over 8500 lbs just so they can sell a consumer variant thay now has to get 40 mpg instead of 55 mpg by 2030 what difference does that make and how is that profitable for Honda? Again you're not thinking about this logically in the slightest. If you look at consumers why would someone buy a 2027 crv that gets 20% worse mileage than a 2026 crv and is the same car and on top of that it will still eventually have to meet higher mpg targets.
I think you are misunderstanding my position here.
CAFE has ballooned car sizes because it's many magnitudes cheaper and faster for companies to make cars bigger than make drivetrains more efficient.
The march of progress that CAFE expected and expects is unrealistic, it expected linear gains of whatever X amount of MPG per year, but drive-train efficiency was starting to plateau.
Lets say CAFE expects 20% efficiency gains between 2010 to 2015, but Honda only is projecting 10% gains on the upcoming drivetrain. What choice do they have aside from moving said cars into a different size class? They can't eat billions in fines.
Now the fines have been temporarily set to zero, but it's a question of when, not if, they get set back.
You sound restarted and dont know much about industrial design or large scale manufacturing. Again for all the effort you're suggesting it's much easier for a to go to congress who literally sets the targets and ine if their criteria for determining that target is technological feasibility.
Why would manufacturers do that? The domestic ones with all the pull benefit greatly from this situation, or at least did for years. They made and make all their money from the larger vehicles anyway, lobbying to disadvantage smaller cars hurt imports much more than domestic.
Again you sound restarted. Consumers choose to buy larger vehicles so Manufacturers make them. End of story. There is no loophole. Larger vehicles are in part due to how mich tech and safety, AND emissions stuff is now included and most consumers don't even want it because it's led to a perception of less reliability and that's a very real perception when it comes to diesels...
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Consumers moving to buying larger vehicles when you take all the small options away is not "end of story" black and white.
Ford Europe's struggles is the perfect example, Ford decides globally they will move away from normal passenger cars in favor of SUVs, worked well enough in the US, but Ford Europe goes from top of the world, Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo being massive sellers for decades generation after generation, to now being stuck nobody wanting to buy their larger crossover replacements for each of those.
Nobody took them away. Look at the sales figures of any small car that was canceled then look up the sales of popular trucks or suvs. You're now talking to air after this reply because I dont care to continue this discussion. The facts are out there. You're the one continuing to look ridiculous
Yes so it's not cafe at all which prevents small cars. It's consumer preference and profit.
What reddit really wants is regulations that will discourage trucks and suvs from being built, which then they would also complain about.
There's a little bit of both. The Corolla for example has been one of the best selling cars for 50 years and still sells well, but yes generally small new cars have the issue of competing with larger, more fully featured lightly used cars. Why buy a new Yaris, when you can buy a 3 year old corolla or 5 year old camry for the same price? But also many automakers abandoned the space because they couldn't compete with the quality of the Corolla or Civic. Especially the big 2.5 were just not very competitive in that space. We've seen them move to SUVs or pickups (Trax and Maverick) as their entry level offerings.
There are no loopholes for big trucks. They have their own cafe standards and even before then only HD trucks were exempt (2500+ trucks) and those don't sell nearly as much as the half tons (f150, 1500, tundra) which always fell under cafe regulations
Big trucks do effectively have an even bigger loophole, as the CAFE standards are based on vehicle footprint, Wheel track X Wheelbase. Regular cars have been getting longer and longer wheelbase because of it, but trucks were always long, especially the full size and HD ones.
Lies. Big trucks have their own standards. Half tons are under the same standards as other passenger cars unless tr*mp recently changed it. Prior to the Tr*mp terms cafe regulations were the same for all passenger vehicles
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That's NOT the only problem with CAFE. Another problem is that the penalties on much more efficient cars and on smaller cars make them much more expensive and much more difficult to sell with a profit. Plenty of people are complaining about how there are no cheap new cars. and no small new cars.
When reddit sees [redacted] doing something to help them, theyll spin a way to make it bad. This is wonderful, hopefully V8 sedans are on the table again.
Liking V8s isn't the problem with your above statement, it's thinking that removing environmental standards will be a good thing. Realistically the only thing that will change is manufacturers will be even more lazy with their engineering and we will have more pollution.
Do you think theyre going to develop backwards? Most people still want efficient cars, not like hybrid technology is going to be thrown out the window.
I think progress will be stunted as they will have less insensitive to make more fuel efficient cars. Do you think they invest hundreds of millions into developing more V8 cars when they are struggling to sell the ones they already make? Even V8 super fans like you aren't buying V8 cars.
Less insensitive lmao
They dont make the v8 car I want, I need 4 doors. Also if those v8 fans arent buying, why do we need the regulations? The market is obviously self selecting more efficient cars. Let the automakers develop whatever they want, in the end the consumers decide what succeeds. Just end CAFE standards and Im happy.
Oh no a typo. That must mean that regulations that have continued to push innovation to create more fuel efficient cars was a bad thing. But really guy, what world are you living in that you think car companies will develop V8 sedans after decades of declining sales. If the Chevy SS sold a million units it would never have been killed in the first place. Cafe did kill these cars, automakers did because they didn't want to invest in a dying segment. I've been a car enthusiast for decades but environment hating morons make it extremely hard to want to be associated with other enthusiasts. The planet is warming but all you ass shits can think about is having a big car that makes as much noise as possible, it's embarrassing.
Why not buy used? For that matter, carmakers are already willing to pay fines to keep desirable products around, or else make up for them with other parts of their lineup. Why would that change?
I bought at the height of covid, used cars were overpriced vs new. In terms of buying used today, I dont trust most sports cars owners to not thrash their cars.
Carmakers pay fines sure, but those fines are passed on to the consumer. When the fines/price are simply too high, the products dont get made. I just want a modern american v8 sedan.
The V8 sedan was dead long before CAFE killed it. Americans don't really like sedans, they don't like bad gas mileage, and those two things are what killed the segment. Look at the Dodge Charger - several V8 options, low price, relatively practical, and yet it only broke 100k units per year twice - in 2005 and 2006, when it was almost brand new.
The fines don't kill products. Dodge was happy to keep paying fines on just about every single vehicle they made for more than a decade. That's actually a huge part of why we have Tesla now - they sold so many carbon credits to Dodge/FCA/etc. that it helped keep them afloat. The fines just make it so that manufacturers have an incentive to make economical products as well as inefficient ones.
Small MORE EFFICIENT cars getting cheaper. For example Toyota Corolla and other compact sedans get better fuel economy than SUVs. This removes penalties that LESS EFFICIENT trucks and SUVs always were exempt from.
They are also trying to outlaw California being able to ban gas sales or have their own standards, which is pretty dumb. Air quality is a major problem in California and the federal government trying to go over them is an overreach.
> lower safety standards too so we can bring back pop-up headlights.
Pop-up headlights didn't go away because of safety standards, at least, not in the US. What went away was our antiquated headlight regulations that made pop-ups necessary in the first place. You're tilting at the wrong windmill.
Those were never required, they’re just a way manufacturers fudge the fuel numbers to look better. With this change, we’ll just get even less efficient engines that still have start/stop, because start stop means they can be *even lazier.*
You really think manufacturers will spend money to stop building their current engines and build different , less efficient engines instead.... You are just making up stuff.
I'm trying to imagine an f350 being able to fit on an urban road anywhere in eastern europe and not shit my pants laughing.
Yeah, bud, I'm sure the balkans, where the average road literally can't even fit two european cars side by side, is just ACHING for our bloated farm vehicles.
Yes, in some cases. If you don't need to slap a bunch of nonsense into an engine to make it hit another 2 mpg to hit some fuel standard and it'll be cheaper, yeah that'll generally sell so you do it. Or if people want V8$ and V12s with lots of power, yeah your do that because before you've been making all sorts of compromises with wimpier engines often giving less power.
If the less efficient engines can save on manufacturing and warranty costs, I wouldn't put it past them. What I wouldn't count on is the savings being passed on to the consumer.
As an engineer, that's not really how it works, no, but it is the end result.
When you say "hey we don't need to be so worried about HIGH_PRIORITY_X because the regs changed. So we can focus a bit elsewhere."
And just like that, innovation on more fuel efficient engines (literally partially, if not mainly, driven by regulation) stalls. If it's not a priority it goes to the back burner. It doesn't usually get worse, but it almost always never gets better. That's how it works.
So yes. Rolling back stringent standards will ultimately lead to less fuel efficient engines *than otherwise could he had*, unless market pressure (people focusing primarily on mpgs) drives it. And if the gas is cheap, it doesn't. Obviously.
The current rules caused people to get huge trucks and full size SUVs instead of much more efficient vehicles and you think the problem is much more efficient vehicles not getting even more efficient... A vehicle with a slightly less efficient engine but MUCH lower air drag and lower weight gets much better fuel economy.
Also as an engineer you should know how difficult it is to get an ICE engine from \~40% efficiency to even higher efficiency. Any improvements from this point onward are extremely difficult and expensive. Most consumers would rather get 1 MPG less and in return get a cheaper, much simpler, much less complicated, more reliable, more durable , easier to maintain and to work on eninge. What's the point of getting 1 MPG more but the engine being much less durable and the car getting scrapped years earlier, overall that's worse for the environment, Many consumers buy much less efficient trucks / SUVs just bc V6 engines aren't offered in mainstream cars anymore.
Holy cow do you have it completely backwards.
Auto manufacturers focused on making those giant SUVs and trucks precisely because they could sidestep mpg regulations with them. Had the loops holes not been planted for those guys, they would have shrunk and become far more efficient, especially back in 2008. Instead, companies, due to a lack of efficiency regs on large vehicles, could pump them out like candy for affordable prices and people bought them. And that's part of the issue as well- less people would buy them if they were less affordable, which they would be if they had to be more efficient for the given size.
I feel like you’re defeating your own point here, the size arms race is the perfect example of OEMs making less efficient engines whenever they get even the slightest opportunity
Yes because pushing power and efficiency required more expensive designs with turbos, variable timing, etc. If you don’t need that anymore you can go back to a simple V6 instead of the complicated I4 for the vast majority of mid size vehicles.
Policies influence industry. If manufacturers are incentivized via policy to build efficient vehicles, they will. If not, they will optimize toward something else, such as cheaper vehicles.
In this case it may not make any difference since most platforms are now global and the rest of the world isn’t loosening standards. Not to mention CA.
They absolutely will not optimize towards cheaper vehicles. They have been canceling "cheap" vehicles left and right over the past 10 years. Often cheaper vehicles also have high fuel economy. They optimize towards profitable vehicles and that often means large gas guzzlers, with the highest engines they can get away with.
You’ve never heard of engine generations or something? If they can built cheaper and cruder for the next model, they will do so. They literally already do it as they move up the CAFE size-to-emissions ladder.
At the risk of wasting all that money when a sane president gets back into power? I doubt it. I'm sure auto manufacturers think in much longer time spans than 4 years
Nothing will change for 98% of vehicle produced. This just may allow for some super cars. California ain’t changing shit and all cars are developed for ca
They already are. Looks at the various announcements over the past year. Tons of pivoting happening. They always have multiple plans. Look at the number of EVs canceled, delayed or drastically scaled back (no longer needed for compliance) and things like Hemi back with a vengeance. No, most big volume sellers won't change significantly, but things we probably would have seen, will be delayed, like more broad deployment of hybrids beyond the Japanese brands. Companies won't develop new V8s or V6s, but will absolutely expand their use or delay phaseouts planned for compliance reasons.
EVs were getting canceled because everyone who wanted one has one by now. And a lot of people don’t want to dick around with long wait times to recharge them, or live in apartments where you can’t just plug it into your garage at night. In the rush to put out EVs, the market got flooded, and now they can’t sell the stocks that they have. They aren’t tearing up their research on them, however. We’ll see them again once demand exceeds supply again. And especially when battery tech makes a breakthrough that greatly increases range.
Stellantis definitely with Hemi. They'll get another bite at the "last chance" apple. Mercedes has already announced bringing back the V8 to AMG. I'm sure Ford and GM will also figure out some ways to expand for a few years. No one will develop new powertrians, but more than a few will expand ones they already have in limited numbers. The 2027 and 2028 model years is when we can expect the most limited edition models.
Yah, offering v8's as an option in a lot of cars that can fit them is kinda a no brainer. Trucks and suv's are obvious, but I wonder if Cadillac will throw a LT in their sedans? Can you imagine an escalade with the c8 zr1 driveline?
Manufacturers also love start/stop because most of an engine’s wear occurs when starting, as the oil has settled a bit, and the oil pressure isn’t at optimal operating spec. Not to mention it heat-cycles the catalytic converter constantly, causing them to foul and break faster. Planned obsolescence is good for them.
Start/stop is about meeting emissions standards more than it is about saving fuel. The fuel savings are a bi-product of the feature. That being said it really does depend on how you drive and the type of area you’re driving in. In heavy traffic or downtown areas a stop/start engine is objectively a better option for both emission output and fuel savings. If you’re driving over long distances on the highway/freeway then the advantages are pretty negligible.
Not required but a byproduct of CAFE. Manufacturers care what costs money, auto stop start is a cheap and easy way to slightly bump fuel economy. They were never going to spend untold millions in slightly more efficient motors. When a $5 button and sensor fixes the problem.
Well implemented auto stop-start is practically seamless now. There is zero reason why a car should be burning fuel sitting in drive through lines are at large intersection lights unless the AC/Heater needs to run.
Companies that are selling cars with shitty auto-start systems deserve to have people hate them, its their own fault.
My RLX Sport Hybrid is fantastic for it and the CT200h I had was pretty good too, the electric motors doing the instant-go you want and then the engine kicking in at the same time you're already getting rolling helps a TON
It's completely seamless in any car with a 48v mild hybrid system and a proper motor/generator for a starter. They have enough electric torque to launch the car while waiting for the engine to start.
I have yet to encounter a totally seamless engagement in a car that relies only on the engine for propulsion. The car is trying to start the engine, get it up to operating speed, get pressure in the torque converter, and start powering the wheels, all in the time it takes to move my foot from the brake to the gas, and there's always a hesitation. I have a left turn across traffic on my commute and it always terrifies me there if I leave the system turned on.
The system probably works well in a manual, where it can respond to the clutch instead of the brake, because when you're poised to launch and the clutch pedal is pressed, the engine is running.
I mean the discussion of start/stop smoothness is not the same when you have an electric motor supplementing the transition between start/stop. Those cars will always be smooth by nature.
Basically perfect in my Highlander. Press the brake a bit more firmly when at a stop to activate, so when I'm at a stoplight, I can cut the engine, but it won't cut if I'm just at a stop sign, for instance. Startup is fine too.
I have the mild hybrid system on my M340. Granted, I'm in sport mode 90% of the time, but every so often I'll forget to switch out of comfort and the start/stop really is imperceptible in feel other than the sound of the engine turning back on.
I just bought a Volvo V60 and the start stop has been decent - when the engine comes on it's not abrupt due to the insulation, and the 48V+ISG lets the car kick the engine back on while it creeps forward.
I was impressed at how quiet my girlfriend's Hyundai Kona was at a stoplight until I looked at the tach and saw the engine was not running.
Being on "auto hold" mode I wondered how it would fire back up quick enough (older implementations would fire up the engine when you let go of the brake). Turns out engineers are not that dumb, the engine restarts when the built in camera sees the car in front moving. And it just back comes alive with no drama.
Now the fun part: this is the cheapest FWD version with no stuff like adaptive cruise. The engine is the 2.0 that is old enough to not even have direct injection. This is one of cheapest cars on the market when leasing. And the auto start stop just improves it by making it quieter at stop lights.
My '24 crosstrek isn't too annoying, but it's the only car i've driven with start/stop. I didn't like it at first, but along with auto brake hold it makes sitting at long lights, traffic, and lines (border crossing) much nicer. As long as I time my start well it's very smooth to get going, just pay attention to traffic lights and the cars ahead.
Audi Q5, CRV 2025 Hybrid, Escape 2021+ Hybrid & PHEV models. I also test drove a Toyota Venza, Buick Envision, and latest model Subaru Forester and the auto-stop start was a non issue. I was surprised with the Forester because my friends older Outback had horrible shaking every time the engine started.
I'm able to drive a '25 MDX Type S from time to time, and the start/stop system is so well done that I don't bother to turn it off. Could be because the engine mounts are still new, but it's so smooth, you don't even notice when it restarts. I have to focus to feel the slight vibration when it does.
Never any issues with a restart delay either, but I don't drive it every day to know if it always responds instantly.
I have a 19 ranger and I used to turn it off but I do notice it saves gas and it's really not that much of an inconvenience also I'm pretty sure it only works in a certain temperature range (maybe 45-85 degrees) because it doesn't work when it's really cold or hot outside
the start-stop on Mazda's Skyactiv-G engines is pretty damn good for a car with no 48v system or ISG setup. They're some of the only cars where I don't immediately turn off start-stop when getting into them because it doesn't get in the way. It's a bit unique though because unlike most start-stop systems it doesn't rely on the only normal engine starter in most conditions to restart the engine, the ECU keeps track of exactly what position the engine stops in, and whichever piston is in the ideal position it squirts in a bit of fuel and fires the spark plug to use combustion along with the starter to restart the engine.
The argument against it is a durability one, not a smoothness one. When the engine turns off and on again the oil pressure drops and it theoretically results in more wear when it starts up again. Whether or not that meaningfully reduces engine lifespan or not depends on the engine and actual use though.
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secret cheat code for auto start/stop being no big deal is to have your car have electric motors that move it as well, they get you rollin and the engine kicks in as you go, none of that stupid ass laggy delay :D
Yup. Hybrid owners are eating good waiting for the rest of America to catch on. Insanely smooth driving experience WITH amazing economy and power on tap.
Yeah, car manufacturers fucking suck now, build worse vehicles, shove ads in your face, and intentionally create cars you can't service yourself when things like your start stop solenoid fails.
I don’t understand the hate for this feature. It makes your car get better gas mileage and costs you more in maintenance . But the cost savings from fuel are more than the maintenance?
But is that a measurable amount on starter life? [This comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1pcpzq7/report_white_house_to_propose_less_stringent_fuel/nrzk83x/) claims they've not seen any uptick in starter replacements as a shop owner.
man when I was poor as shit I had a 90 CRX that I had to drive broken for six weeks because the clutch broke and was always engaged, so I had to bump start it on the starter *in stop and go traffic* and it never even missed a beat, I think you're overestimating how much starters suck for whatever reason
It doesn't. It cuts the engine so the idle time doesn't lower the MPGs. So yes, it's fudging. The engine isn't running more efficiently, it just isn't running.
>It cuts the engine so the idle time
The engine isn't running more efficiently, it just isn't running.
That's the whole point of auto start/stop: so that you are not using gas just to sit at the redlight
Then my 67 Barracuda is the most efficient vehicle in the last 15yrs. Granted, it hasnt run in that time but by the manufacturer's logic, it is adding to its MPGs.
It doesn't increase MPG
It simply redirects the gas you saved from being used to idling for driving, therefore you get more range on the same tank of gas.
What maintenance? Everyone seems to claim it’ll lead to early starter failure but I haven’t heard of any of the newer engines with it actually killing starters.
In my experience, it doesn’t. I’m a shop owner, I have not seen an uptick in starter replacements on auto start-stop vehicles.
I dislike the feature because I don’t like the little delay before I can get going, but that’s just personal preference. I just hit the off button every time I start the vehicle.
honestly my brother's gf has an equinox and there is a very noticeable gap even as a passenger between the time the gas is hit and the car actually turns the engine on
my RLX has it too and it's basically seamless cuz I have 3 electric motors to help move the car in addition to the V6, so it can just go. I can put it in sport mode tho and that disables the auto start/stop altogether and it'll just idle like normal
An Evoque was the car that made me hate it. It felt like more than a second and made pulling out into traffic feel less predictable. My wife's hybrid does it and it works great because you still have the battery to rely on. A few other vehicles it's just a big shudder which is also annoying to me. When everyone complains about NVH it makes sense most don't like that lack of smoothness.
It’s also not a maintenance problem in cars with good starters designed for the feature. It gets a bad reputation because of shitty American brands (and Stellantis) doing it with bog-standard starters that can’t handle it.
some of it is the direct injection engines not liking it as much, cuz the valves can get dirtier by the nature of not having the fuel spraying on the back of em to keep em clean like a port injection car
Most people I see with the feature creep so much that I'm sure they're getting mostly added maintenance with little fuel savings. Soon as their car shuts off they're off the brakes, car turns back on, creep forward a few feet, rinse repeat.
As a lifetime manual driver, I don't get the point of stopping 2 car lengths back and then creeping the entire cycle. Just stop where you're supposed to, and STOP. They even made it so that EV's can "creep" forward, WHAT IS THE POINT?
If the car starts back up, moves a foot or two, then stops, it sometimes won’t turn itself back off. My old Passports would sometimes just stay on if they just restarted.
Creep isn’t a bad thing to have when parking. Having to move your foot to the gas pedal on old EVs 100% makes it harder to do fine movements compared to a combustion automatic.
Most people just don’t like the feeling of their car shutting off at a stop light. This is only really applicable to regular gas cars, because hybrids have a much less jarring feeling whenever the engine starts/stops. But whenever I’m in a regular gas car and start stop activates, it always spooks me for a half second because I’m reminded of all my old cars that would shut off because they were broken, before I remember that I’m in a modern car that is actually meant to do that.
Because of emissions testing rules, the cars are tested in whatever default they turn on in. So, they have to force it to reset each time you start up again to use it in the testing. Start stop helps with emissions a good amount, it's not about the tiny fuel savings.
I’m on my 2d EV. Charge at home. Never have to go to a gas station. Fewer parts to malfunction, quieter. Fun to drive. The more people that drive them the more they will improve. 800 miles on a charge will be routine. If the infrastructure is built out drivers will choose EVs in greater numbers.
My wife wants an EV. Not because they're better for the environment. Or quick. Or cheaper to run. Or less maintenance.
She just doesn't want to go to a gas station ever again. 🤣 Love her!
I agree, but this is a step backwards in promoting that infrastructure to be built out. I think the market will get there eventually on its own, but sometimes government regulations and incentives can be the nudge that's needed to push things forward.
We already couldn't accommodate for the infrastructure before AI, how do you figure we're going to do it with such a huge amount of our power bandwidth allotted towards that now?
More demand for gas was caused by TRUCKS and SUVs ALREADY BEING exempt from existing standards for many years.... Trucks and SUVs have an unfair advantage bc of the OLD rules, even on this subreddit many people were complaining about this for years and now everyone just pretends that isn't the case....
Getting rid of a rule that mostly affects MORE EFFICIENT cars won't cause more demand for gas.
A large share of these fuel savings [produced by the CAFE standards] has been offset by increased vehicle weight and power. In the United States, our shift toward bigger vehicles has negated 40 percent of the fuel savings unlocked in the wake of the Obama-era CAFE standards. That’s a lot of gas!
Look at how many small cars are sold in the rest of the world that we can’t buy due to regulations & manufacturers refusal to sell them to us. Let us import those without having to wait 25 years. I’d love to go buy a 3-door hatchback, but can’t. And I’m not alone.
> buy due to regulations & manufacturers refusal to sell them to us.
They don't refuse to sell them. They're all lower margin. America is the cash cow for most OEMs and that cash flows from high margin trucks and SUVs. Why would they wanna stop that gravy train? And they absolutely LOVE the CAFE work around for this. No such work around in EU where regulations are more uniform re: efficiency/emissions, so there's no scam for emissions for bigger vehicles.
No, smaller cars are always lower margin. Just less stuff you can upsell against and it's generally a different class of economic buyers than largely try to buy the base models, which are also always lower margin.
They already make cars that would pass CAFE, but they sell them in other markets. Or did. Ford ended fiesta/focus production in NA more than 5+ years before the rest of the world.
Let's look at the last Fiesta ever made then, and assume it was made now in 2025 (and not in 2026 where it would need even higher fuel economy) to see what MPG it would NEED to achieve.
NHTSA posts the formula on their site.
A Fiesta would need to get 52mpg - they weren't doing anywhere near that before Ford killed it. Neither was the Honda Fit, or any of the cheap small hatchbacks. The Prius is much larger and has lower requirements, on top of more space for the hybrid stuff.
You can always pay the penalty fees but that just results in a small car that costs way more than it should and is overall a bad product. It gets worse when you look at light trucks because the requirements may be much lower, but there's no way in hell you're getting a Hilux to 40mpg+ without going full electric.
This sounds like an argument for loosening the standards. Besides that though, you said the Prius is a bigger car. So, how much better MPG would a Fiesta with a similar drivetrain get? Hell, how about a kei car? A lot better than the 52MPG.
The Fiesta is about 47sq ft in footpring, a Kei car would be much smaller. Though [the formula](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-V/part-531) (see figure 3) does kinda account for this by selecting the lowest value between the footprint calculation and the table value. I don't know what kinda MPG they'd get in EPA testing.
Realistically nobody's buying a Kei car in the USA though, that class only exists because of exemptions from taxes and other requirements in the first place. They're just too small for 99% of people and even here in europe the few that are around *really* stand out.
As I said in another comment, sure you can throw a different drivetrain in the Fiesta. But it'll be more expensive and at that point you might as well just go for a bigger car - i.e. the current state of affairs.
The standards SHOULD be loosened, if only to make it so cars like the 4th gen Fit can be sold there. If a *Fit* does not meet CAFE standards, that says more about them than the car.
Lots of people would buy kei cars if they were available. Not everyone wants or needs a larger vehicle. We aren’t all families with 2.3 kids and 3.2 dogs. Lots of us are single people who want to get to work efficiently, and have a chance to park in our shitty apartment complexes with not enough parking.
I still see Smart cars all the time. Those little Mitsubishi van-nosed trucks are popular on the import market as well. The “bigger is always better” stereotype is annoying because not everybody thinks the same way. You can take a look at politics to know that we are far from a unified monoculture. The same goes with cars.
As far as your last paragraph, I 100% agree.
Smart cars are much larger than Kei cars. Surprisingly larger. Especially in height, which matters a lot when you don't have exclusively japanese drivers.
It's not that bigger is always better, it's that they're TOO SMALL, everything in them is too small because they're 2/3rds scale normal cars. They also present an active hazard to you and everyone else by being so slow. Yes, they're cool city cars but they can't do much more and they're horribly unsafe in crashes.
It's far easier to rework CAFE to bring back the Yaris, Fit, and other compacts. They've already sold plenty even when gas was cheaper, the market is there.
Totally fair. Mild hybridization largely fixes this and those costs get passed to the consumer, which they mostly recoup over 5 years with much cheaper fuel costs. So we do we not see such products outside of mostly Toyota and Hyundai (sometimes)? The latter having a different strategy since it's a corporate average and they manage that with far more EVs, whereas the former manages it with more hybrids, and Americans OEMs just fuck us by only selling big profitable SUVs/trucks?
Then you run into the same problem. You've removed the actually cheap small cars off the market (the 4th gen Fit did not meet CAFE despite being by all accounts a reliable, efficient car) and now your choices are:
A) a more expensive car;
B) an oversized crossover/SUV/whocares, which might actually be cheaper than A.
CAFE has both objectively given consumers worse options AND encouraged less efficient cars.
As for Toyota, they're focused on the japanese market's needs primarily and due to many factors, EVs aren't a great idea there. American OEMs don't have much of a choice, the Maverick is as small as you can make a truck and it's still pretty big; make a small car and it's just not competitive under current CAFE regs - the Fit cannot be sold in the USA despite already being developed and produced by a company with a strong foothold in that very country, simply because this reliable and efficient car does not meet some arbitrary numbers made up by politicians.
> encouraged less efficient cars.
This I agree with,
> CAFE has both objectively given consumers worse options
This is the result of the former.
Hybridization should be mandatory on all vehicles, honestly. There are no downsides to it and the cost increase is recouped within 5 years for anyone actually driving their car.
There should be an extra FEE if you opt out of buying an efficient hybrid to enjoy driving a V8 instead. I'm fine to give consumers options, but people should be paying extra dollars if they choose to drive less efficient vehicles.
I don't know why you're talking so much about the fit and so little about Toyota's almost entirely hybridized fleet. If they can make a corolla hybrid, why can't GM or ford?
>This is the result of the former.
It's the same thing. You get less cars and the ones you get have been made worse.
>Hybridization should be mandatory on all vehicles, honestly.
This just achieves all the downsides of CAFE without any of the potential upsides. You still need bigger vehicles (batteries and motors DO take up space), which will also be heavier, AND more expensive. And/or more unreliable because you've just added a lot of complexity - engineering it away also costs money.
>There are no downsides to it and the cost increase is recouped within 5 years for anyone actually driving their car.
>I don't know why you're talking so much about the fit and so little about Toyota's almost entirely hybridized fleet
Toyota doesn't even sell the hybrid Yaris in the USA. That's how bad things are. You get neither Fit nor Yaris, despite them being sold in huge numbers in years past. They both proved that you don't need extra fees or taxes or anything to sell a reliable, efficient car even when gas is cheap.
>There should be an extra FEE if you opt out of buying an efficient hybrid to enjoy driving a V8 instead
There is already. You pay that when buying the car and every time you go to the gas station. The incentives to *not* get a V8 always existed and cost of living isn't going down anytime soon.
>I'm fine to give consumers options
...But you also want to forcefully opt OUT every consumer of not having a hybrid?
> This just achieves all the downsides of CAFE without any of the potential upsides. You still need bigger vehicles (batteries and motors DO take up space), which will also be heavier, AND more expensive. And/or more unreliable because you've just added a lot of complexity - engineering it away also costs money.
I'm in this field. The additional complexity is a myth when done right and the engineering is a one off re: architecture. After that, it is packaging and tuning for different platforms. The Toyota (and Ford) HEV/PHEV systems are some of the most reliable implementations and are more reliable than their gas variant vehicles. Additionally, they actually come with LESS maintenance, notably in the PHEV format where break maintenance and oil changes can be meaningfully deferred relative to the gas versions.
> There is already. You pay that when buying the car and every time you go to the gas station. The incentives to not get a V8 always existed and cost of living isn't going down anytime soon.
No, I want a proper luxury tax. Paying more at the gas station is often just the cost of being dumb. I would like a direct line item associated with buying a car worse for my lungs and the planet.
> ...But you also want to forcefully opt OUT every consumer of not having a hybrid?
Me proposing the fee was me giving a way out to allow people to OPT out. If you don't want to make good decisions for the environment and future generations when it comes to your car purchase, you can pay some extra money up front that can go into a slush fund to pay for the extra cancer your choices are pushing into the air.
>they just… choose not to sell them for financial reasons, no matter if people want them?
Yeah? I mean, let's say you have two vehicles: a family sedan and a small SUV. You make a $2.5k profit on the sedan and a $5k profit on the SUV. And you sell 5,000 SUVs and only 500 sedans. Makes total sense to get rid of the sedan and tell those buyers “well, we don't have a sedan, but we do have this,” and try and convince the sedan buyers to get the SUV instead.
A refusal by any other name…
And I love it when car makers try to gaslight everybody. Like we can’t see pics from everywhere else in the world of new small cars.
No need, there are USDM 3 door hatchbacks. You can go buy one from Mini Cooper today if you really wanted. If you go used (because these didn't sell and got killed off) you could get a Mk7 golf, Fiat 500 in 3 door configs. I'm sure there are others.
The Malibu's death as BS in the first place. It was massively outselling most of GM's SUVs, sometimes 3:1 or 5:1. It beat the Trax every year until the Trax's facelift, yet the Malibu spent that whole time languishing with no redesign or effort to keep it competitive.
People will tell you "it was just fleet sales," then tell you how valuable GM's cheaper SUVs are to its bottom line because of the reliability of fleet sales. Sad fact is, GM could make desirable sedans, but doesn't really want to.
>Sad fact is, GM could make desirable sedans, but doesn't really want to.
The Impala was killed off, and the plant closed.
Instead, they could've built the Holden platform's design there. Cheap rwd for everyone within Chevrolet & Buick. Not everyone will want/need a V8, so get some V6 & 4cyl trims in there too.
Yes, we have the Cadillac platforms, but they're pricey and more sophisticated. The Holden platform is probably old and cheap.
What I don't get is how GM supposedly can't make sedans, yet they can cancel the CT4 and CT5 while announcing the intention to update the Alpha chassis and bring the CT5 back later. If sedans aren't profitable, how is keeping a chassis around for one sedan a viable strategy, even if the rumors/plans of a second car come to fruition?
They can't make up their minds, it's just a mess.
I didn't even realize there was a CT6 & CT6-V, using the 4.2L twin-turbo V8. While it makes less power than the CT5 Blackwing, that big, cushy platform seems like a fun place to be. I was thinking about a sedan sometime later, due to coupes and sports cars being too low for me. I landed on maybe an Audi A7 Competition, but this CT6-V is such a beast.
I was actuallyt looking at SUVs, and Cadillac just didn't have their act together there either. The XT4 was neat, but too small. The XT6 immediately jumped up a couple size classes, and the engine was the same pitiful 3.6L in everything else. After that, it was Escalade. So I couldn't go with them on the SUV front.
The Zeta ought to make a comeback too. Make this a nice GT coupe to fit between the chopped-down 6th gen Camaro and the low-trim C7 Corvette. Call it the Monte Carlo. Do a Buick version, and call it the Riviera. Some sedans based on the platform couldn't hurt either.
**Stupid Idea Warning:** I've wondered how versatile the Alpha is. Could it handle having a small bed, becoming the basis for a new Ute? Obviously you get a new El Camino & GMC . You could also spin it off into a Cadillac XT2. Give it a full-length roof, and you'd have a new Nomad. Finally, a shooting brake that's priced for the normal folks.
Holden killed their own platforms in Australia years ago. There is no more Commodore. The last couple of years were built on a Malibu chassis with Malibu engines and no one wanted them.
Yeah, it was several years back when the Impala was killed off and the plant shut down. The opportunity to do anything cool there has long since passed.
the thing that fucks me up about GM and Ford constantly being like "we can't sell cars because nobody wants to buy them so we're just gonna sell SUVs, trucks and one sports car" is that the korean and japanese mfgs and also Dodge sell the absolute FUCK out of sedans and compacts, the real reason nobody buys a chevy cruze isn't because american buyers only want SUVs, it's because the chevy cruze sucks shit even compared to a nissan sentra and chevy refuses to EVER give enough of a fuck to build a competitive sedan in any segment! makes me feel like i'm taking crazy pills lmfao
>the korean and japanese mfgs and also Dodge sell the absolute FUCK out of sedans and compacts
Dodge sells sedans and compacts‽ The only one I can think of is the Charger, which Dodge markets as a pseudo-muscle-car, and isn't remotely compact.
The Dart is dead, the Neon didn't make it out of Mexico, the Challenger is done, and the Durango and Hornet are SUVs.
I was referring to the sedans, obviously, don't be pedantic. They were selling FLEETS of chargers and chrysler 300s and even the 200 sold half-decently
Chrysler hasn't sold the 200 in eight years. I don't think Dodge/Chrysler has sold a single “compact” vehicle (save for the Jeep Renegade, but that's an SUV, and the Fiat 500, which was a pre-merger Fiat) since the nixed the Neon in 2005.
Yeah, people will tell us all day that cars can't happen as Hyundai and Kia and Genesis managed to step up their presence in the US while bringing around a bunch of desirable sedans (and SUVs).
How many were fleet sales? Walk around any Enterprise or Avis and it’s either Malibu’s or Altimas for half their fleet. Ford had the same big sales in the early 2000s with the Taurus. But it was all fleet sales.
>It was massively outselling most of GM's SUVs, sometimes 3:1 or 5:1. It beat the Trax every year until the Trax's facelift, yet the Malibu spent that whole time languishing with no redesign or effort to keep it competitive.
It was not profitable bc of CAFE penalties. Selling a million cars and losing money on them bc of penalties is worse for a manufacturer than selling hundred SUVs / trucks with profit.
As well as Ford Fusion/Mondeo. However, more people don't buy and own sedan anymore. We even see Subaru and Nissan out. Only Toyota and Honda are still selling their sedans and with declining sales.
New crossovers have better riding and fuel effective, it's clearly killing sedans.
Very unlikely as vw is forward focused on electric vehicles. I don't think it's a regulatory issue for why they're not selling them in the US now since other brands like BMW still do
Braindead take. There were over 6 million compact and mid sized crossovers sold in the US last year alone. Now take all the hybrid and 4 cylinder models off the road and replace them with V6 and V8 models. That’s a massive impact on demand.
Your logic is flawed in that you assume people will willingly choose the V/I6 and V8 models. The people buying 4 cylinders are buying them because they are cheap. Relaxing the rules won't make a V8 cheaper than a 4 cylinder.
I’m talking about corporate profit margins and sales price and maintenance. That’s all that matters to automakers.
And literally millions of American moms and dads are out there picking their kids up from soccer in 6.2L Chevy Tahoes and Ford F-150s. They don’t give a fuck about fuel economy.
That's just because there isn't the imagination to bring back malaise-era engines. I've always said that the Mirage would've done numbers if Mitsubishi had just gone and given it a small-block 6 or 8 cylinder, such as that from Pacer's and Pinto's. Less MPG, probably just as much power, but the gas fumes and noise :D
It won't cause more demand for gas. Consumers these days care about fuel economy a lot, so automakers won't stop producing hybrids and turbo 4 cylinders. They also have the rest of the world to worry about.
The only people that would benefit is Stellantis because they don't even try and make normal economy cars anymore, so their fuel economy rating is terrible
Venezuela's massive oil reserves are only part of it. The huge, newly discovered offshore fields overlapping Venezuela's and Guyana's coasts offer lighter crude. Exxon and Chevron are deeply invested on the Guyana side, but the border has never really been settled, so Venezuelan speedboats have harassed the rigs and Venezuela has threatened to invade. Hence, the US is killing all Venezuelans in boats.
Venezuela’s oil is a heavy crude, it’s more difficult to refine and not really suited for fuel production. Light “sweet” crude oil is the preferred product for gasoline and diesel fuel
Just a correction but heavy sour fuel is perfectly fine for fuel production and the primary fuel for a large portion of American refineries. Difficult is the key word though and many countries don't have the engineering knowledge to handle it, nor the capital to invest in the facilities. The US likes it because no one else does therefore it's cheaper, and more readily available, and we have a robust population of refining engineers. Venezuelas oil industry died because after their last little revolution they had a brain drain and lost most of their engineering capacity. It's also why mexico is buying refineries in the US to send their oil, refine, and send back.
We export more oil than we consume. The hold up is refining oil. There haven’t been new refineries built since the 1970s because no one wants to build them according to new EPA clean air rules. We can drill all we want but it won’t change how much usable fuel we can generate.
But why? Oil is already sub $60 a barrel which makes increasing domestic fracking unprofitable.
Do people think BP drilling more oil to sell to other countries somehow benefits America?
As far back as when I got my drivers license in the 90s Americans have been driving massive trucks and SUVs while complaining about the price of gas. This will just maintain the status quo.
Ironically, people are demanding that they use less gas than they ever have before. The market, NOT the government is clamoring for hybrids, and EV’s are still growing in demand; slowly but steadily. These changes aren’t likely to affect gas prices.
I’d rather see the 25 year import rule abolished. 10 years for vehicles that a manufacturer sells here, and 0 years for vehicles that a manufacturer refuses to sell here. Doesn’t meet crash requirements? Here’s a waiver acknowledging that you are aware of this and still want to import the vehicle. We’ll see how undesirable small cars are really. This will lower the total fuel consumption when people can get modern small cars with modern fuel systems, instead of being stuck with a 25 year old car because they have zero want for a crossover/suv/truck.
You can still buy a Prius, no one's banning fuel efficient cars but it does give a lifeline for anything but a 4 banger turbo. Objectively CAFE was a failure that pushed unrealistic MPG targets and to not destroy large commercial vehicles needed that whole GVR loophole.
This is how the driving licencing works in Europe.
B license
- 3500kg max gross vehicle mass
- 9 occupants max
- 750kg max towing capacity
If you want to haul more stuff then you need a C license, if you want to haul more people then you need a D license. For towing heavier trailers you need an additional E licence on top of the previous ones.
An even stupider thing to think is "I'll buy this 4-ton truck for my daily suburban office job commute because I might need to haul 2000lbs of mulch someday"
Que the pretentious European who takes it upon themselves to call Americans stupid because they lead different lifestyles and have different needs from a vehicle.
America is a place where people are free to buy whatever vehicle *they* feel that they should buy. Thankfully, your smug idiotic opinions aren't a factor.
I get that you Europeans don't understand just how massive the US is, but youre not considering several factors that we have to deal with that you dont. Half of the country gets heavy snowfall for multiple months a year, something with 4x4 or AWD is a practical and sensible purchase. Now add in the fact that a pickup truck is intentionally a do-it-all vehicle, it makes sense that they're so popular.
If I'm a person who can only afford 1 vehicle for myself or simply don't have the space to keep a truck that only gets used for truck things (which is most people), I need that vehicle to be able to have a large cargo area, pull my Boat/ATV/Jetski and also be able to get me to work during a snow storm, theres only 1 real choice.
That said, I don't daily a truck. I daily a Corvette. Are you going to call me stupid because I don't *need* 400+ hp without knowing *anything* about my life?
Marketing is a thing btw. The fact that I get only ads for Ford rangers and trucks on every one of my social media feeds and online is telling of how the industry is trying to push us in a certain direction.
On a more philosophical note, who is actually "free" to choose what they want? Wants and desires are heavily influenced by what you see, what the people close to you do, and see other people driving. Thinking that we're entirely the authors of our own destiny is a problematic way to think.
No one is telling you that you can't drive a truck if you need one. What most people complain about is the fact we're being increasingly pushed in the direction that we "need" a truck through influence and advertising, not to mention the whole light truck exemption in regulations.
You have free will to explore all of your options. Manufacturers have their vehicles on their websites.
Marketing existing doesnt change anything I said.
Try buying a Honda fit new in the USA or Canada.
Why can't you?
Try buying a small hatchback. Why can't you?
A concerted effort by manufacturers to push the highest margin product and using any excuse to get rid of low margin products. In the case of small hatchbacks, their argument is that standards were set to high for CAFE.
The options themselves are limited by things none of us have control over.
Blindly buying because marketing is stupid, sure, but being a marketing professional myself, I know what they're trying to do. Push an idea into your head. Over time, if done well, very much like Inception, you think the idea came from you.
To assume marketing has no effect on consumers, even the most headstrong, is not a good way to go about things. They do it because it influences behaviour.
> Try buying a Honda fit new in the USA or Canada.
>
>
>
> Why can't you?
>
>
>
> Try buying a small hatchback. Why can't you?
*Can't* isnt the word you should be using. I stand by what I said previously. Marketing exists to generate interest. It is ultimately up to you, the consumer, to make a decision. If a person is too easily influenced by marketing alone, then they are a stupid person. End of story.
Explain CUV's, which are trucks in name only, almost entirely using the brakes, suspensions, and drivetrains of their now extinct car cousins but with a lift kit and an angular front bumper.
They only exist because they game CAFE.
They do though, "light trucks" have a separate CAFE line on the graph to follow. Most crossovers with some kind of AWD system are considered light trucks due to the language: "special features enabling off-street or off-highway operation and use", which the DOT currently considers AWD, and minimum approach/departure angle.
For example for 2025 a Honda Pilot ~50sqft footprint, hits 40 on the light truck graph so thats the standard it is judged to, while a car with the same footprint needs to hit 55.
They didn't think it was ridiculous, the manufacturers lobbied for that big "loophole" on purpose, as it would have basically killed off lifestyle SUVs jeeps, broncos, the (relatively small) family SUV market (Suburban, Cherokee), and most importantly ate significantly into the profits on pickup trucks, the highest profit margin products they made.
No no, you have that in the wrong order. Large SUVs only came about after these fuel standards were put in. The tremendous sedans of the 50s and 60s have basically gone extinct because of these regulations.
I agree, that's the point I was trying to make actually. Prior to this law they didn't have much pressure to develop and market SUVs very heavily, the market was niche for everyday "light trucks", outside of the very key pickup truck market.
So they write in the light truck loophole to keep pickup trucks profitable and easy to sell, while over the coming decades push more and more regular consumers into "light trucks".
What do you mean you don't feel safe with a 16-year-old behind the wheel of a rusted-out, "Carolina lean" lifted dualie with 6 bald tires and one headlight?
Pickup trucks have always been required to be able to safely travel on the roads and many areas allow farm machinery to drive on the road between fields anyways.
**Because that is ridiculous.** If y'all want to do that that's your prerogative, but let's not act like that wasn't a completely fair assumption to make in 1975. The rise of the muscle truck was a disaster for any attempt at regulating fuel consumption in the US.
> Objectively CAFE was a failure that pushed unrealistic MPG targets
Yet the makers managed to meet those targets while producing cars with over 1000 horsepower, and many economy cars starting with nearly 200 horsepower.
I think people forgot just how powerful entry level vehicles are now compared to 30 years ago.
The base Corolla can do 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. That's *insane* for a 4 cylinder car that gets 32 city/41 highway. You'd be looking at less than half the mileage for a similar performing car from the 1990s.
> I think people forgot just how powerful entry level vehicles are now compared to 30 years ago.
what are you talking about? a 1997 Honda Prelude has the same 200hp the new one has!
It's not nearly that big of a gap though -- Corollas from the mid-90's got nearly the same mileage (about 32 vs 38 combined MPG) and could do 0-60 in about 9.5 seconds.
The difference in mileage is mostly due to more advanced fuel injection and new Corolla's using a CVT. You could always throw a turbo and new tires onto a 1994 Corolla and get a good deal better performance while still being in spitting distance when it comes to MPG....
The whole country would still be smoking cigarettes if we hadn't spent decades making the cancer sticks unappealing and cost prohibitive AND WE STILL have a good chunk of people smoking.
People will absolutely ruin their lives or the lives of some future generations if you give them a chance and don't make rules to protect them from themselves. They'll even do it while smiling since they attribute no individual responsibility to the trajectory we're on. You still see this shit with seatbelts, where mother fuckers will click the seatbelt and then sit on top of it - which is absolutely batshit crazy. It's so crazy and common that American safety standards have a mandatory crash loadcase where you gotta protect the occupant when they're not wearing a seatbelt which leads to bigger airbags and more cost into the car. This is only something NA deals with. Just lunatic shit.
All true except the bit about cigarettes, which is instructive. Outlawing smoking in any shared indoor space has the most to do with reducing smoking. High taxation and well-funded public education helped as well, but the indoor ban worked best.
So it will go with burning oil and gas. It'll be largely outlawed.
> if we hadn't spent decades making the cancer sticks unappealing and cost prohibitive
> Nobody stopped smoking because of DARE.
How did DARE raise cigarette prices and outlaw smoking in public buildings?
It’s also why the traditional American mid size to large size sedan no longer exists and we are all driving trucks and SUVs.
Well, one of the regulation reasons anyway.
Efficiency works both ways. CAFE forcing manufacturers to engineer engines that achieve crazy fuel economy has had the positive side effect of making 300 hp in mid tier sedans commonplace. Being able to wring out 100+ hp per liter and getting 35 mpg while doing it? Where's the problem? Seems to me that we're living in a golden age of horsepower thanks to the Obama era CAFE increases, it has been a boon for enthusiasts, or at least those of us who aren't filthy rich.
It was a failure because they let themselves be lobbied by US automakers to carve out an exception for light trucks, which happened to be the only vehicle segment they could actually compete in when CAFE was being thought up.
Everywhere else on the planet just taxes the living shit out of fuel and lets that control the demand for larger vehicles, but doing that at the time would have basically killed the Big 3 when the Japanese were making a better small car.
> Everywhere else on the planet just taxes the living shit out of fuel and lets that control the demand for larger vehicles, but doing that at the time would have basically killed the Big 3 when the Japanese were making a better small car.
Funny enough, that hasn't changed... it's actually worse now.
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Health takes priority over anything else. The issue with CAFE is the loophole between vehicle size and mpg standards. It could be done better, but the idea of having strict emission requirements is important. Moreso for urban areas than rural, so the latter could perhaps have a separate rule set
Thats totally ignoring how society works in the real world.
Not to mention CAFE did save a ton of fuel. You dont get to have it both ways and claim it doesn't work and is running cars lol.
Its just that the automotive industry drove an f150 right through the f150 sized loophole their paid lobbyists were told to put in.
A large share of these fuel savings [produced by the CAFE standards] has been offset by increased vehicle weight and power. In the United States, our shift toward bigger vehicles has negated 40 percent of the fuel savings unlocked in the wake of the Obama-era CAFE standards. That’s a lot of gas!
[Here's one for $14k.](https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicle/762183962)
>And the same Versa was $13000 not long ago
Yeah that's called inflation. That $14k Versa $11k in 2020 dollars. Cheap cars do exist, people just don't want them which is actually why the Versa is being axed. This is a Redditor's last chance to buy a cheap shitbox they keep begging for
How does removing penalties from much MORE EFFICIENT and cheaper cars f\* your lungs and wallet? Less efficient trucks and SUV always were exempt from these rules...
Trucks and SUVs aren't exempt, they just have standards that are lower, so that they can still exist.
The current administration has already removed *all CAFE penalties*, which I'm sure you'll understand means that there is *less* of an incentive to produce more efficient vehicles - specifically because there is *less penalty* for producing less efficient ones.
The Americans might.
First off, most of the cars they sell aren't sold in the US anyway. GM and Ford have killed off every sedan they sell, leaving only the Mustang and Camaro in the line-up. Everything else is an SUV or a truck. And it's not too hard for them to put a newly engineered turbo-3 into the new Trax for global markets while rolling with a NA Family 1 Gen Ⅲ with fewer emissions controls to deliver MOAR POWER.
And just keep using that engine in its current configuration for as long as the consumer will tolerate it. Let's not forget that the Ford Modular V8 has been in production for 35 years. It's still in use in the Mustang. Export Mustangs could just not have this engine available in those markets.
Second, yeah, they might just sell the same configuration in all markets for simplicity sake, but that doesn't mean they'll all have the same level of emissions controls installed. If they could leave catalytic converters off vehicles sold on the US they probably would, as that's one less component in the BOM, which means more profit.
Civilian exhaust makes up sweet fuck all of global emissions, honestly cannot believe you people actually think that your car saving 5mpg is going to do anything to the environment.
What no points out, the US only has only 2 decades of oil reserves left. We are number 1 producer of oil but not even the top 5 countries in oil reserves, we are pumping ourselves dry.
Here’s a news flash. Fuel efficient, smaller engines and electrics also reduce other pollutants, besides GHGs, as a co-benefit. So forcing efficiency ends up cutting tailpipe pollutants, including toxic pollutants.
Also, that petroleum extraction, refining, and transport for those extra billions of gallons of motor fuel that would have been offset comes with its own pollution.
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> Cars are expensive because they can be, not because of fuel economy.
I mean, they're also expensive in the US because the US government hates free market economics and has steep tariffs on Chinese vehicles.
The US government tried to regulate vehicles to be more economic because of a huge gas crisis, and car manufacturers doing everything in their power to skirt those regulations doesn't make it the US government's fault. Once again, greed consumes all. Free markets are impossible since the industrial revolution.
Cars could also be cheaper without seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, lights, etc.
There’s a reason why no intelligent person would suggest to remove those…
Sure. But then you have more medical costs as now you are more likely to get cancer or develop breathing problems. Or your kids become more prone to asthma. This isnt a good thing if cars become cheaper while becoming a heavier pollutant.
Finally. If this goes through we can go back to getting reliable engines that don't have super tight tolerances, use extremely thin oil, or turbos on a 180hp aluminum block engine.
one moment this subreddit whines about V8 dying and the next whines about the law that killed them getting repealed, also CAFE says nothing about the emmisons that cause smog (in fact many ways to reduce NOx INCREASES the fuel use since you need to reduce combustion temperature)
On high end weekend cars & shit, sure, keep the v8. Idling in traffic to work & back, fuck the v8, electrify everything.
Why does it have to be all or nothing ?
How far should we take this, then -- should the guy blasting smoke in my face with his f250 be allowed to "do what he wants"... for everyone that wants a more anolouge feeling car, there's always the used route!!!
It's possible to lament the death of many cylinder engines while also recognizing the effect of ICE emissions on the environment.
I know I know, nuance isn't possible on reddit.
>one moment this subreddit whines about V8 dying and the next whines about the law that killed them getting repealed,
It's almost like there are diverse opinions between the millions of users here... Shocker.
So, you're aware that combustion produces emissions. That's the chemical fundamental of what's occurring - carbon isomers are being broken down via combustion to release energy and they reduce to compounds like CO2.
You therefore understand that the more gas you burn, the more emissions are created. The same way that drinking more caffeine gives you more energy.
It clearly follows from there that worse fuel economy creates more emissions.
Give people a choice as to what they want to buy. Not everyone wants or can afford an EV. The EV mandate was overstretch and so were the cafe standards.
I would support this if it came with the condition that the Chicken tax is removed so that smaller and more efficient foreign vehicles can enter the market and compete, that way consumers can decide if they really want an 8 mpg V10 Ford Excursion, or if they can work with a 35 mpg I4 truck.
> that way consumers can decide if they really want an 8 mpg V10 Ford Excursion, or if they can work with a 35 mpg I4 truck.
Doesn't the latter already exist as the Maverick? Removing the Chicken Tax would potentially allow other models into the US, but they'd still have to meet safety regs.
My favorite reddit truck circlejerk is the one about Japanese kei trucks. The thought of driving one of those ancient 25 year old tin pots on the interstate is hilarious
And people like you will sit there and say that anything that can’t “compete” should stay illegal or taxed out of existence, to the sole benefit of corporations.
Where did I say that? go ahead and import a key truck if you want.
But no company is going to release a vehicle like that in the US because we have actual trucks here, and the type of people who would buy one of the kei trucks are a super niche group that likely can't buy a new vehicle anyway.
8.5l/100km on motorway is a lot! U can buy normal SUV cars that will do like 6-7. Not my fault americans don;t use hybrids and stick old V6 into anything.
Most people on the autobahn are doing about 80mph. I would consistently drive 80-90mph and most cars passing me were BMWs, MBs, Porsches, etc. Not to mention the unrestricted sections of the autobahn happen to have a stau seemingly every ten clicks or so.
If there was ample consumer demand for the 35 mpg I4 truck they would be on the market. ~20 years ago we had the S-10, Ranger, and Tacoma readily available. And believe it or not, they were perfectly functional for most truck-y tasks. But the manufacturers don't want to sell you a reasonable truck for $30k when they can sell you a platinum bigdick edition F150 for $80k, and as long as consumers continue eating it up and buying trucks based on ego and perceived status over utility and practicality that is what the sellers will offer.
\> that way consumers can decide if they really want an 8 mpg V10 Ford Excursion, or if they can work with a 35 mpg I4 truck.
You are thinking the current admin (and many previous admins as well) are governing in the interest of the general consumers and not major corporate interests, lol
Do the fuel economy standards in their current form have any remaining value at this point?
They don't seem to have done anything to discourage people from buying large gas guzzling trucks and SUVs while at the same time I've read that they were partially responsible for ending production of the Honda Fit.
If that's true - large trucks and SUVs are OK but the Honda Fit is not, then the CAFE standards are nonsensical and dysfunctional.
In a time where cars have tons of hp, get good fuel efficiency, and tons of people bypass the regs with the truck exception?
Feels pretty pointless to me.
I have never understood this argument for the life of me. Most people buy their cars to commute, they aren't enthusiasts. I'd imagine that they would prefer not to feel the shift. I know someone who used to have a VW Beetle that switched to a Honda Fit, they didn't even notice the lack of shifting. Obviously you wouldn't want this in something like a Toyota 86 but for a non-GR Corolla, I don't see the issue.
Yes they need more frequent fluid changes. So what? I just changed the fluid on the Fit I mentioned a few months back.
It reminds me of how PC nerds will start listing all these fancy specs when you are asking for computer recommendations for your Boomer parents to just log on and check the news and their email and other basic stuff like that.
Not everybody is an enthusiast for most things.
95% of people will not notice. You don't change gears with stick and people will call it automatic. They have no idea about the PDK, CVT and other things.
I don't think car companies will change anything, this could easily revert back in three years and provided there's no cheating the midterms are shaping up to be a blue wave.
The current CAFE is stupid though. Massive trucks and SUVs aren't penalized much yet it killed off efficient stuff like the S10 and true Ranger (I honestly forgot that Ford brought back the Ranger because that thing is the size that an F-150 was 30 years ago) do people really need trucks this massive? I've even seen many conservatives in my area missing these old small trucks.
CAFE has ironically harmed the environment more by punishing efficient vehicles and also made things more dangerous, these massive trucks and SUV's are absurd, they even need front cameras now to keep their owner from accidentally running over kids.
Obviously I think we do need environmental regulations in place but actually be intelligent about it. Maybe tax these massive trucks more if the owner doesn't have a legitimate need for them and stop punishing small cars and trucks.
Also get rid of stop-start, I legitimately think that was one of the worst inventions in the history of the planet. Yeah, let's just wear out our batteries, starters and alternators faster as well as the engine losing oil pressure. Oh and your A/C even gets to shut off at stop lights. Ironically all of this probably actually harms the planet more. While most car batteries should be getting recycled (as parts stores have core charges) replacing a battery every 3 years instead of 5 or more still has to be worse. And that's not even getting into the engine just dying sooner, requiring a new car.
Not really. Even if the rollback stays in place things won't get less efficient. Manufacturers won't suddenly switch everything to new engines either. Even if they started developing something new this minute it wouldn't roll off the production line in numbers for some years yet. What we lost out on is potential efficiency gains in the future and programs currently in progress may get delayed or cancelled entirely.
Not really. Best case is Dodge/RAM keep using the 5.7L until they can't anymore. It takes years to develop anything new.
On top of that you have to think of the global market too.
Well, I'd advise that you not speak in absolutes, as their is one company I believe would do something so...unadvisable. Watch as Stellantis tries to fit a Hemi in the 500. Perhaps they should ring up Aston...
...fuck, that would actually be awesome, come on Fiat, let's get MOVING!!! 🚗💨
At this point they might as well just take it one step further, and force a *maximum* fuel efficiency allowed.
If your car is getting more than 30 mpg you get to pay a fine because it's obviously not demonstrating enough Freedom^TM, and you get a $7,500 tax rebate if your car gets less than 15 mpg.
If it's going into the road tax that at least makes sense and I'm saying this as a left wing person. The car is still driving on those roads but not sending any tax to them due to the lack of gas bought.
In what way does this even come close to punishing fuel efficient cars? That's not "one step further", that's something else entirely.
It allows manufacturers and customers more options. Kind of the opposite of what you're suggesting.
> punishing fuel efficient cars.
they already do this in various states.
You pay more for your yearly registration if your car is fuel efficient, since you dont buy as much gas to fund the roads.
Ah yes, because nothing says America number one like their vehicles being even more uncompetitive globally 😂😂 literally the reason American automakers make nothing but trucks is largely a loophole. Your trucks and SUV are basically not allowed in a lot of nations. The reason no one buys American vehicles is that your automakers lost the fucking plot and instead of making better cars they lobbied for carve outs.
The fuel standards they proposed? It would just put you in line with Europe like a decade ago 🤣 like Jesus fuck.
Literally while Europe saw a dropped in vehicle caused deaths, American ones went up because of those trucks being roll over hazards so they made their visibility worse. If America wants to make cars other nations want to buy well you need to also make cars they want to buy.
Literally this is stupid beyond measure
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Less efficiency doesn't necessarily equate worse air quality, in many cases it's the opposite, more efficiency can come at the cost of higher smog-producing emissions.
At the end of the day, enthusiasts aside, most people just want a car that gets them where they want to go as comfortably as possible with reasonable purchase and running costs.
If that's an EV, then people will buy that. If it's a combustion engined car, then people will buy that.
EVs are starting to get affordable enough and good enough for people to consider them on their merits without Governments needing to put their fingers on the scale.
This. I voted for this right here. Take your needlessly complicated, overworked, hybrid, drive by wire, one piece head/exhaust manifold, direct injection, EGR, 6 catalytic converters, turbo 4 cylinders and shove them up your ass.
That’s the thing with CAFE standards, they were written with impossibly high burdens for compacts and economy cars and much lower expectations for SUVs and Trucks meaning it’s cheaper to engineer them. Which is why most manufacturers have made their vehicles larger, or stopped producing sedans all together
Funny enough it also creates a push towards making trucks vehicles larger to skirt even more efficiency which is why the small truck market is basically dead
Companies just produce what people buy. CAFE is simply broken down into two categories: passenger cars and light-duty trucks. It’s not like there’s extra requirements for super small cars like a Nissan Sentra vs a bigger sedan like 7 series; they all just fall under passenger car category. While I agree it’s a bit silly that SUVs can be classified under light-duty trucks so they have to meet lower mpg standards, it still doesn’t explain disappearance of compacts and small cars as manufacturers have the engines/powertrains; they just don’t want to put them in smaller stuff because people don’t buy the smaller stuff or there’s not enough profit.
This is a good thing. Hopefully we will see more new small and midsize vehicles because of this. CAFE rules hurt small cars and incentivized manufacturing large gas guzzlers more than anything.
What does that have to do with CAFE or fuel efficient? They can easily put efficient 4 cylinders in them. People who buy new cars just don’t want them anymore.
CAFE standards were based on vehicle size and weight. Smaller cars had higher MPG requirements to hit or the manufacturer would be penalized. Therefore manufacturers decided to stop making smaller cars.
The sales numbers say different.
Look at the last 4 years of sales for Yaris in US: 201 in 2021, 6436 in 2020, 2196 in 2019, and 27209 in 2018.
Outside of 2021, well that’s not too bad…until you realize that’s like 10% of Toyota Corolla sales (in 2021 for example they sold over 220,000 corollas).
I’m not saying there’s no people looking for these small cars, but it’s a pretty minimal amount. Stating CAFE is what eliminates these small budget cars that already have extremely economical engines just isn’t really that accurate.
This is completely ignoring the rise of zoomers. I don't think your typical Gen Z could afford a new Honda Fit in 2020. There are several consumer studies that show that Zoomers want small cars. The Japanese exclusive 4th gen Honda Fit could never meet CAFE standards as the mileage is too low for the target even though from an ICE perspective it's fuel efficient. To meet CAFE standards they would have to retool the entire R&D to make it legal for sale in the US. This would raise the cost of something like the Fit where doing a direct export of cheap lightweight Japanese cars would incentivize Honda and Toyota to bring back these cars as there is minimal cost bringing them back. With the volume numbers you show and CAFE being gone there is less to lose for Honda and Toyota to bring compact cars.
Just look at the articles about why Honda said they discontinued the fit.
From Car and Driver, “Honda cites slow sales as its reason for dropping the Fit”. [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33337398/honda-fit-discontinued-for-the-us-despite-new-global-model/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33337398/honda-fit-discontinued-for-the-us-despite-new-global-model/)
So I’m not sure why you keep blaming CAFE, especially on fuel efficient cars. That last generation Fit gets the same, if not slightly better, EPA mpg than the non-hybrid civics.
Those Honda Fits were discontinued before Zoomers could afford new cars. Zoomers are now old enough to enter the new car market. They want cars like the Fit.
A Honda Fit only makes like 35-40MPG which is below the 53 MPG of 2025 CAFE standards for passenger cars. CAFE can rest in piss.
If the US really cared about CAFE standards, they would allow the import of cheap Chinese EVs.
That has less to do with CAFE standards and more to do with people desiring big comfortable vehicles in the USA.
Nobody is holding a gun to anyone’s head saying they must daily drive a giant F-250, but people do because want to. There’s nothing stopping anyone from buying a Prius if that’s what they want.
CAFE standards were based on vehicle size and weight. Smaller cars had higher MPG requirements to hit or the manufacturer would be penalized. Therefore manufacturers decided to stop making smaller cars. I don't see any other strong reason why we are seeing so many cars get bigger each year other than manufacturers pushing it. The automotive industry is not a free market.
Small trucks are no longer possible to make, but small cars are plentiful. OEMs make big cars because that's what people want in America. For the entire history of the car besides the oil crisis and after effects in the 70s-2000s Americans choose the land yacht above all else
That's literally not what they said.
Fyi Cafe is based on vehicle footprint and the mpg demand decreases as the footprint increases thuss creating the incentive to make lager cars, not to mention lager cars can fetch a higher price which is very enticing to manufacturers.
We're a decade late, if not more. At this point, loosening the standards won't fix the problem they created. Most of the affordable and compact cars were already pushed out by tightening emissinos standards that punished you for not getting a bloated vehicle that had higher margins for the corporations and weaker standards for emissions. Loosening it now isn't going to bring back the more affordable cars it killed, just make the life cycle of the least-efficient, blaoted SUVs from getting squeezed out.
Last year of the S10 in 2004, it started around 25k.
That's about $43,000 today. Or the price of an F-150 STX that's sitting on lots, which is safer, more capable, and has better tech.
A 1995 S10 started at $10kmsrp or $21k today. Idgaf about safety or tech. Being more capable is also highly debatable. The only things I use my maverick for is towing my 5x8 trailer, hauling trash, moving appliances around occasionally and other small odds and ends. None of which and STX does better.
Toyotas probably pissed at this news. The absurd fuel economy regs are what cause the new trucks to detonate.
If the choice is fuel economy but worse reliability then I’ll take the shitty fuel economy any day of the week.
There are a lot of good engines that don't burn a lot of fuel. It's just an easy excuse for manufacturers. Robust and economical engine is possible, why some people treat it like some magical item
Absolutely. I'm not against better fuel economy but if it's at the expense of reliability and increased build cost then it's probably not worth it. Not to mention many of these new standards are about emissions rather than fuel economy.
No True Scotsman, yeah? People can be enthusiastic about vehicles while also recognizing the effect they have on the environment and wanting to minimize it.
Unrelated, it's neat that you found a Santa Fe with a manual.
You'll notice that I offered no opinion on what auto enthusiasm is supposed to be or what my thoughts are on this matter. Not gatekeeping, it's a statement of the tone of this thread - very little to do with cars and actual facts, but mostly political BS. So tired of this leaking into every corner of this website and indeed life.
The Santa Fe was bought on a bit of a lark - don't know that it adds a whole lot to the driving experience of an SUV but it is nice to have the extra control in winter, the engine braking all year and the "whaaat?" factor of it. :)
>You'll notice that I offered no opinion on what auto enthusiasm is supposed to be or what my thoughts are on this matter.
By making a comment, we inherently express an opinion, whether we mean to or not.
>very little to do with cars but mostly political BS. So tired of this leaking into every corner of this website and indeed life.
Politics is life, and policy does matter a lot for cars. I don't disagree with your fatigue, but you can always click "Hide".
>The Santa Fe was bought on a bit of a lark - don't know that it adds a whole lot to the driving experience of an SUV
That's kind of what my manual Forester is like. It's less efficient and slower than the auto would be, and it's no WRX, but I love having something almost no one else has. Yours has even more "whaaat" factor because mid-size CUVs are probably more antithetical to manuals than compacts.
The problem with the non-stop politics and clicking hide on everything to avoid it is that there's not much actual discussion going on for most things besides the political screeching.
And what's worse is that in some of these threads if you aren't commenting that you agree with the upvoted opinions you end up getting your comments buried from downvotes and can't really have an actual discussion about cars with more than a few people.
It's frustrating and I know it's already made a lot of other people leave or stop commenting over the years. But that's just Reddit I guess, everything here nowadays has to get political whether you like it or not.
Yes, exactly. I've already unsubbed from many of the default subs (that I used to enjoy) for these reasons and indeed taken months-long breaks from Reddit.
Maybe this is "summer reddit" on my part, but find myself wondering why I'm even here any more...
> The Santa Fe was bought on a bit of a lark - don't know that it adds a whole lot to the driving experience of an SUV but it is nice to have the extra control in winter, the engine braking all year and the "whaaat?" factor of it. :)
I’ve got an 05 Tucson with a 5 speed manual, and I initially thought the listing was a mistake. I’d never seen one before, but sure enough, when I showed up, it was manual! Tickled me enough that I bought it since the price was great. Turns out nobody else wanted to buy their old SUV with a stick lol
Yeah, same! Sat on a "buy here pay here" kind of lot for months, I picked it up for a song just before prices went insane. Really well looked after and lightly used, my theory is that it was the second car of an older couple living in the country.
Seeing as most of the top upvoted comment threads are full of users that don't have flairs, this is one of those annoying threads that gets attention from the political crowd and any chance of reasonable conversation just goes out the window. Nothing but the same dramatic hyperbole over and over again.
This whole thread should honestly just get nuked and future threads like this just be locked from the start because these don't do anything to actually help keep good discussions happening here
I mean, I don't have a flair, but I'm still (to my shame) a top 1% commenter. In fact, I'm here so often that there are people who are complaining about threads because they think *I'll be in them*.
It's a public forum. People will discuss things.
Yes. Enough with these mandates that are being foisted on everyone. If you prefer or can get by with a super efficient car then great. That’s your choice. I think we all can appreciate decent MPG and such. But, the trickle down effects of forced, gestapo-like fuel mileage requirements has mucked up the auto industry quite a bit.
Let’s back off a bit, shall we?
Because we’ve learned and make engines cleaner. Lemme guess, you’re trying to pat your Govt. on the back for all their "great work" on this? Honestly, the emissions stuff is also rife with BS. Cars are stuffed to the hilt with expensive sensors and various other useless digital witchcraft that adds major cost, complexity, etc. Nothing better than a person who’s strapped for cash just trying to get to work but their car won’t pass inspection due to some "Check Wallet" light on their dash. Great. All for nothing.
Exactly, just allow cars to be built with performance, comfort, and quality considerations first rather than burdensome that hamstring the driving and ownership experience.
Doesn’t really matter. Companies aren’t shortsighted enough to start spamming gas guzzlers and cutting corners on emissions. As soon as they’d have something developed, we’ll have a new president and the old standards will return.
Pretty much. No one is going to bet billions on a regulation that may change in a few years.
But, it will allow manufacturers, mostly American OEMs, to continue production of older engines. The question is whether they can easily switch production to the extent lines have already changed.
> No one is going to bet billions
[GM Invests $888 Million in U.S. Plant for Next-Gen V-8 Production](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a64904689/gm-next-gen-v8-investment/)
Maybe not billions, but darn close
That’s a little different because the next gen V8 is only going in to GM’s light trucks, which already have less stringent CAFE standards *and* it’s going to be a more efficient/less pollution engine. If anything, relaxing the regulation as proposed would make this investment useless (if it wasn’t likely to change when the government eventually flips back to D).
The car community is so disappointing.
Newsflash: increasing a machine's efficiency almost by definition increases its performance.
Fuel injection, variable valve timing, prevalence of turbos over displacement, were all implemented in the pursuit of efficiency and have made cars so much faster than ever before.
This doesn't seem like a good faith argument. You ignore all of the examples that were given and pick out one tangential factor to try to support the opposing view. Yes tires are a factor in the EPA rating, but they are a minor factor. Engine efficiency is the biggest slice of the pie by far, and with that power and fuel consumption are inherently linked as efficiency increases. Whether your goal is making big power or getting bigger MPG numbers, both goals boil down to extracting more power per volume of fuel. Switching from standard tires to Prius tires may take you from 35 MPG to 37 MPG, but what got us from 20 MPG to 35 MPG was engine efficiency improvements.
Low resistance tires seems like a bit of a cherry pick.
The best performance tires are slicks that last ten laps, but nobody would seriously recommend slicks on a daily.
That said I'll still make the counter point: Aerodynamics.
The Prius that everyone loves to hate had the lowest drag coefficient of any car ever produced at the time. It also introduced the hybrid technology that's everywhere now, including F1.
Designing cars to look like bullets, rather than boats, increases both MPG and performance. It's essentially free performance gained by a wind tunnel.
Unfortunately, it has had the side effect of every car kind of looking the same now, because there is an aerodynamic "optimal" design, but the Prius was sort of the Trojan horse for designing even minivans to be more "slippery"
Changing major vehicle components involves millions of dollars of R&D.
Most companies won’t change their plans or emissions standards. In 3 years this will all change back to the previous standards.
Yes and no. I agree that the engineering has already been done, no one is going to go backwards to intentionally make engines less efficient and effectively less competitive in the market. What I can see happening though is cost cutting on emissions equipment and secondary systems that are external to emissions. Things that the aftermarket often "deletes" for "performance." If manufacturers can get away with saving a few thousand bucks per unit by lopping off half the emissions system and just rewriting the ECM tune to accommodate, they will.
Hmmm I think there is a word for such a thing. Perhaps "virtue signalling?"
Though I do think all this will do is allow companies to not do any R&D into more efficient engines or EVs, and we will just have the same decades old power trains. And then if and when the EPA decides to do it's job, they will complain that they need more time. This just pushes the time horizon.
I'd support this if its for cars (sedans/coupes) but not trucks (pickups/suvs.) Maybe just vehicles under 3500 or 3700lbs. Heavy vehicles get too much leeway.
This is long overdue. And while they are at it, let's revise the thinking behind the CAFE standards. It has had a terrible effect on the vehicles making it to market as it rewards heavier vehicles and penalizes lighter ones. Ever wonder where the small pickups went? Blame CAFE.
AI is clearly eating into the grid too much. Time to roll back EPA standards and get Venezuela to hand over their oil. It’s a Government by Billionaires for Billionaires.
Not sure if serious. They are doing both those things, too. Even if we somehow manage to bring in new management in 2026/2028, the immediate future of this country will be one of massively increased air, water and land pollution and the comeback of diseases we thought long eliminated.
Not with our Congress. I don't see Congress getting any better and I don't see any majority in a legislature wanting to bring CAFe standards back. So no they're not coming back.
You’re thinking about now, I’m pointing out things can change and CAFE can come back within the next 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, and so on.
California standards were blocked back earlier in the year. They require a waiver from EPA and congress blocked the waiver using a mechanism called the congressional review act. It's a big deal and huge legal fight over if they had the authority to do that, but until the courts decide, CA has no standards at least for GHGs or EV requirements. Other CA standards just have to do with toxic emissions, not efficiency or climate pollution and even those might end up being blocked. It's a giant cluster.
You know what, AI is draining the grid like crazy. And instead of fixing that, they'd rather roll back clean air rules and strong-arm other countries for oil. It's like the whole system is just built for the ultra-rich.
I don't think it'll ultimately change anything for cars. Car companies know that will be reversed anyway and most will still have to EU standards. And people will vote with their wallet when a car becomes too much of a gas guzzler.
Trucks, though, is a crapshot for me.
The market is a lot less capable of putting pressure on the industry than the government is. That's kind of the whole point of governmental regulation.
And the market is even worse, understands even less, and *also* doesn't have the public interest at heart. The idea of the rational self-interested actor has been clearly over for a long, long time, hoss, and again - they simply don't have the power to actually effect meaningful market change in a modern economy.
There had to be a middle ground between save the butterflies and fuck the planet. Cafe standards have given us some of the highest HP most efficient cars but also the most unreliable tech in what used to be solid cars. Just about every engine failure is due to whatever flavor of variable timing, cylinder deactivation, or head gasket failures from being boosted to the moon. All of which basically calls for a short block or repair yours for about the same price. The emissions systems in diesels are so stupidly expensive and every time we get through the growing pains of one system they add more and find entirely new ways to cost $15k for repairs.
Having spent nearly two decades of my life chasing this, it seems like we’ve gotten to the point of diminishing returns with the gasoline-powered internal combustion engine, given current consumer preferences.
Small-displacement turbocharged three-bangers are awesome. Stuff them into lightweight highly-aerodynamic cars equipped with a manual transmission and fifty miles per gallon is a reality, when optimized to use high-octane fuel.
I haven’t knocked out a video in quite a while, but it’s time.
It's staggering to me how everyone has just accepted these garbage solutions that manufacturers just dumped onto the market are somehow entirely the guberment's fault.
Stop/Start, CVTs, Diesel emission systems that fail every 30K and cost thousands to fix....these are all half assed solutions because the manufacturers have decided, "welp, good enough" and dumped them into the market instead of actually engineering product that actually works ok in the real world, or doesn't explode prematurely, or at the very least, make it a serviceable item that doesn't cost 3 mortgage payments to fix. And people are still lining up to buy them.
The EPA didn't make your EGR cooler on your powerstroke diesel a piece of shit, FORD did.
CAFE didn't make your Altima's CVT explode at 60K. NISSAN did.
In the 70s, American car makers answered the call for cleaner emissions by just putting shitty heads and carb setups on top of the same engines they were selling from the 50s. Honda walked in and showed with a little technology they could make an emissions compliant car *and* not have it suck....but that required investment, and the big 3 didn't want to spend that money.
The standards can be unrealistic at times, but it doesn't mean we should give these companies a free pass because they don't want to engineer solutions that aren't completely shit.
This is a scenario where we all collectively voted with our wallets and showed we don't really care about fuel economy or saving the environment.
Sure, we ended up with overstressed forced induction engines that are never going to last as long as the mighty 5.7 V8 that Toyota replaced with an unreliable twin turbo 3.5 V6 that shit the bed at 10k miles.
None of it makes any sense.
Actually, less stringent fuel economy standards can bring small trucks back to US. CAFE regulations are the reason why many Americans drive enormous trucks.
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Maybe now we can do the obvious and switch to better fuels, synthetic fuel, hydrogen, bio diesel, etc
And as for the emissions problem, that's also a technical problem with a technical solution and its called direct-air carbon-capture-and-sequestration.
Fantastic. Let’s have some equal EPA standards across the board. No need for public safety, the military, FEMA, NPS, and ambulances receive exemptions from diesel emissions regulations while the average joe suffers.
> while the average joe suffers.
To be clear, we're talking about suffering from the negative effects of diesel exhaust on health and air quality, yes?
Nope. I want to know why you think that driving a 7 year old car is fine for the environment but that having EPA standards being equal across the board is horrible.
Because so far all you appear to be is a hypocrite.
Are we talking about the 7-year-old gas vehicle that I drive about 2000 miles a year, or the 16-year-old gas vehicle that gets driven even less?
>but that having EPA standards being equal across the board is horrible.
Not sure where I said it would be "horrible". I'd prefer it if diesel emergency vehicles, military, etc. all operated on the same higher standards as consumer diesel vehicles, not the other way around. So we might actually be agreeing there.
(I will say thank you for actually putting your vehicle in your flair.)
Great! Do less stringent technology standards next. I think the ever-increasing number of computers and sensors is more of a problem than the engines currently.
You could just let the petro giants close another three or four refineries, then they can claim shortages and boost the hell out of all the refined product pricing....including gasoline.
You can lower CAFE, but I would say that if you produce an E-85 vehicle that it should be CAFE exempt due to supporting farmers and brewers here in the USA.
Since space and safety are more of an issue how about CAFE standards are more lax for smaller vehicles than larger?
Honda couldn't meet US CAFE with the 4th Gen Honda Fit so we didn't get it.
Chrysler put a Hellcat engine in a Truck that can't fit inside a Costco Parking spot.
For a vehicle of its size and weight it would have needed over 52mpg to MEET it. It's a perfect sized and usable appliance
And the 4th Gen comes with AWD too
I know there’s going to be some pushback over this (and depending how far these repeals go, that may include myself), but the previous set of regulations were overly burdensome on manufacturers and consumers to the point where most customers would be forced into buying an EV for a new vehicle by the next decade regardless of if they wanted to, which also would have in turn (seemingly) made new cars unobtainable for a significant portion of the buying public which had previously been able to buy new cars.
I think it’s a relatively small percentage of people who want to effectively ban ICE engines in new cars in the early 2030s, so with that, some repeal of the regulations were needed.
That being said, we shouldn’t completely abandon the idea of trying to push new efficiency development via regulation just because the old regulations were too ambitious. I think there is a middle ground to be had to make real progress without having to forgo ICE vehicles. I wish we could have a real discussion about realistic environmental standards and implement those, but I feel we will more likely play political ping pong between extremes on the issue.
It was. They eliminated the fines in the "beautiful bill". It has no enforcement mechanism, but this just creates one more barrier if Democrats were to manage to reinstate the fines in the future.
I think CAFE is still there since it's a statute passed by Congress, but an executive order directed executive employees to levy $0 in fines for any violations.
Automakers aren't going to change any of their plans based on this. It's all show for the Republicans.
Automakers may keep selling their dirtier and less efficient engines for a little longer but they won't make anything new based on this info. They'll keep moving forward with hybrid tech and more efficient power trains.
Everyone ignoring that trucks and SUVs ALREADY WERE exempt from existing standards.... Trucks and SUV have an unfair advantage bc of the OLD rules, even on this subreddit many people were complaining about this and now everyone just pretends that isn't the case....
Also there never was any limit for fuel consumption or Co2, (btw not even the EU has limits on fuel comsumption or Co2 emissions), both ALWAYS WERE limitless, there never was a limit. Emission limits are for OTHER, toxic emissions.
Downvoting doesn't change anything.
Okay, might as well since most everyone who is going to be complaining about this also drives some unnecessarily large vehicle that skirts the existing stringent fuel economy standards.
688 Comments
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