If Sapporo is a highly popular destination for the winter season, why doesn’t ANA or JAL operate seasonal international flights to/from the city?
Posted by bonzothebonanza@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 58 comments
darkeyes13@reddit
Singapore Airlines offers a seasonal SIN-CTS flight, iirc.
Signal-Season-2463@reddit
Yes they do, typically from November-January/February.
Signal-Season-2463@reddit
Why operate international flights from Sapporo when they can feed traffic through their major hubs (e.g. HND) onto their already well established domestic network?
Conpen@reddit
The domestic hub from HND is well oiled. I flew JFK - HND - CTS via JAL and it was an easy transfer in Tokyo to a short domestic flight.
If adding more wide-bodies between NA and JP, why would they not also send them to Tokyo where passengers can easily connect to basically any other destination in Japan?
Allaplgy@reddit
I flew from CTS to HND on JA last winter during a snowboarding trip and that puddle jumper was a fully booked A350. While I saw plenty of fellow winter sports enthusiasts on my trip, there were very few Europeans or North Americans on board, which tells me that there is a big market for interisland travel there, but not a big enough market for travelers from NA and Europe to fill the widebodies required for those long trips. Better to just shuttle people to and from Tokyo. (And hopefully they'll finish the Shinkansen line all the way through soon).
sourcefourmini@reddit
Japan has a fascinating relationship with widebodies because of their relatively large domestic aviation market compared to their tight slot constraints and small number of major airports. Case in point, JAL and ANA both used to fly the 747-400D, a short-range, high-density, one- or two-class 747 variant that Boeing built specifically for the Japanese domestic market. It's still pretty common there to see 1- or 2-hour flights on A350s and 777s, just because their logistics work out differently than those in the US or Europe.
uhcgoud@reddit
100% correct. They fly their high density wide bodies on their domestic routes. 100 or more more seats compared to their long haul wide bodies.
Longjumping-Usual-35@reddit
I had the exact same experience last January for snowboarding.
Allaplgy@reddit
We're you there for the week of spring conditions? Sadly it held the whole time we were at Niseko, but it made for some incredible views. But got to hit Teine and Kokusai for some epic powder once it finally did hit. And got to summit a small peak (Tokushunbetsusan) south of Yotei on an easy sunny day splitboard tour.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
Also, the train is where it's at in Japan. Sorry, planes.
Envelope_Torture@reddit
Shinkansen only goes to Shin-Hakodate-Hokuto. The rest of the journey is like \~4 hours on a conventional train with no wifi. It's not great.
szu@reddit
Even when the network gets extended, the best option from Tokyo is a flight. I love trains as much as the next train dude but some sections can be boring. I'd take a special sightseeing train or historic train but i'd rather fly to Sapporo instead.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
StarlightSharpshot@reddit
Have you looked at how long it takes to travel from the Tokyo area to Sapporo via train? It's 3.5 hours to get to Hakodate in the south of Hokkaido and another 3.5 hours to get to Sapporo.
Longjumping-Usual-35@reddit
100%. Until the Shinkansen extension is completed…but I think it pushed from 2030 to 2035 now? So into the, flying is really the best for most folks.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
but train
AlienZak@reddit
I’m not even joking, you sold me with this
JBerry_Mingjai@reddit
Surely there are international flights to Sapporo from Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Taipei, etc.?
Japanisch_Doitsu@reddit
Like others said, Hub and Spoke. But I'll also add that the carriers that do offer international flights there already can probably do it cheaper than ANA and JAL can since they're from less wealthy countries.
SupSoapSoup@reddit
Hokkaido resident here. Sapporo (Hokkaido) is a popular spot in the winter, but it is still relatively unknown to people outside of Asia. Vast, vast majority of international tourists to Hokkaido comes from Mainland China, South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, and the airlines from those countries already offer a lot of seasonal flights to Sapporo. Meanwhile, the Tokyo-CTS route is still one of the busiest air routes in the world, so there is a lot of capacity for both ANA and JAL to fill. In some cases, you can get free domestic air ticket TYO-CTS from both airlines if you are a tourist wanting to go to CTS via TYO.
Far_Breakfast_5808@reddit
Has Hokkaido been effective in promoting itself as a destination outside of Winter? Some international airlines only serve Sapporo seasonally but others are there year-round.
SupSoapSoup@reddit
Yes, but once again it is focused mainly at those 3-4 main countries. They all visit all year round, not just winter. Actually, I think the focus on winter is kinda how they target non-Asian tourist to promote Hokkaido, because "a ski trip to somewhere far for weeks/months" is a Western (US-Europe) tradition.
The main problem with Hokkaido is that it is basically a completely different world from the main Japanese cities, even among Japanese. It is comically huge (if you go from the eastern part to the western part it is roughly the same distance from Kobe/Osaka to Tokyo/Chiba), but it has much fewer rail lines and public transport, no Shinkansen, and tough weather (snow). The roads are humongous to Japanese standards, and everyone commutes by car. Hence people's idea of Japan clashes with the actual reality of Hokkaido. It is very hard to travel across/enjoy Hokkaido without a car, a complete opposite to tourist destinations in the main island. This raises the barrier of entry (to enjoy Hokkaido) very highly. Sure, you can rent a car, but most of the world drives on the right while Japan is on the left. Even if you can drive ,there is still some anxiety.
Far_Breakfast_5808@reddit
I must be the rare example of a tourist who went there outside of Winter. I visited during Spring, which was still cold but obviously not Winter cold.
jhl_x@reddit
I'm planning to visit there during summer. I expect it to be "warm" but I doubt it'll be a sauna like the rest of Japan.
darkeyes13@reddit
I went there at the end of summer last year (was in Hokkaido for the first couple of weeks of Sep) and that was still pretty damn hot, and I grew up in the tropics! But yeah. It's mostly a dry heat, so mostly bearable. And the fruits in that season are glorious.
I went back to Tokyo after those 2 weeks and whew. I always said I'd never go to Tokyo in the summer, I've now added "fringe season between summer and autumn" to the list lol.
I'd love to go in the winter, but I'm not big on skiing/snowboarding, and I'd hesitate to drive in snowy/icy conditions, but Hokkaido is definitely a lovely place to visit in general.
julius_cornelius@reddit
This !
According to this source out of the +6 million yearly international visitors almost 95% comes from nearby countries. The top 3 (South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong) alone make 60% of that traffic.
I imagine a lot of those tourists either fly through Tokyo, or use direct flights via their national legacy airlines or budget operators like Zip or Peach to get there.
semiregularcc@reddit
Yeah I used to be one of these tourists when I was younger, we all flew with the local airlines which offer many more direct flights to different Japanese cities. I know Taiwan is like crazy with their direct flights to small airports.
Allaplgy@reddit
Yeah, I was amazed to be flying a 350 from CTS to HND. Huge plane for a puddle jumper. But it was fully booked on a Tuesday!
caverunner17@reddit
Shit. I paid $180 RT for HND-CTS this summer. It would have been nice if it was free!
gasstationsushichef@reddit
Hawaiian Airlines offered them pre-COVID but never brought them back after the pandemic finished.
itsme92@reddit
HA generally has their network set up to serve Japan-origin traffic
Ok_Mathematician6075@reddit
But the Alaska Airlines takeover and the sad livery wipe? That's what I meant. Hawaiian Airlines, as we knew it, is disappearing.
itsme92@reddit
Yep, Japanese tourism to Hawaii hasn’t returned to pre-pandemic levels which is a major headwind for Hawaiian and a reason they agreed to merge. Alaska can redeploy the widebodies on routes out of Seattle.
Ok_Mathematician6075@reddit
OK, I get it,
but can we mourn?
Ok_Mathematician6075@reddit
RIP Hawaiian Airlines...
aucnderutresjp_1@reddit
Finnair too. Qantas is bring Sapporo back at least!
upbeatelk2622@reddit
These two - especially ANA - have attempted to offer int'l flights from beyond Tokyo and they all folded. ANA in particular had a pretty good number of int'l routes out of KIX in the 90s but dropped them all by replacing them with Star Alliance codeshares. It's not that they didn't try but success was few and far in between or only enabled by the economic bubble.
Popular is not the same as high yield. For instance, Cathay has 2 77Ws and 1 A359 daily to CTS on peak dates in December, but only one of them is timed to connect with longhauls from JFK (out of 3 daily) or LHR (out of 5 daily). So OP, your CTS question is like int'l First class - it looks great but how much business is it really giving the airlines? Their deployment tells you the real answer.
For international flights, both JAL and ANA have a strategy of chasing higher fares and high-yield business passengers out of HND. I for example have never been to HND in my life because even when flying business class, I'm not paying the premium they expect of me, so they relegate me to NRT, the riff-raff airport with strong crosswinds.
semiregularcc@reddit
Yeah in my experience there really isn't that much of a demand. If there are demands (e.g. South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Australia, etc.) they have already been addressed.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
It’s huge for Australians to ski, which is why Jetstar and Qantas serve it
Breadedbutthole@reddit
Same reason there aren’t international flights in/out of Aspen, CO or Burlington VT, I would expect.
747ER@reddit
Shockingly, it’s actually not the reason that there aren’t any international flights to small towns in your own country. Sapporo is a large city with far more demand than both of the places you mentioned.
Opening-Athlete-2372@reddit
Largest commercial type permitted into ASE is the E175.
itsme92@reddit
Sapporo is a city of 2M people
CBRChimpy@reddit
Much easier to run seasonal flights to an outstation from a permanent hub (what foreign airlines do) than between outstations (what Japanese airlines would have to do).
MJ1989C@reddit
Qantas operate long haul services to Sydney from Sapporo.
SouthwestBLT@reddit
Was going to say this, and or Jetstar do as well. A true Aussie doesn’t consider a flight to Japan long haul tho tbf. Only what like 12 hours? Chillin.
aucnderutresjp_1@reddit
Lunch and a movie, that's it.
Fox33__@reddit
Have you heard about.... the Shinkansen?
Derr_1@reddit
Doesn't go there
aucnderutresjp_1@reddit
And if it did it'd be way more hassle and more expensive than flying (when transiting from an intl inbound).
PaddyMayonaise@reddit
Doesn’t go there and is significantly more expensive than flying
aucnderutresjp_1@reddit
Because their Tokyo flights have less passengers, so why not just funnel them through Tokyo where the infrastructure already is, and won't affect operations?
cyberentomology@reddit
If you want just the beer, you can always go to where it’s made: San Diego.
Fly4Foodcali@reddit
The route would be highly seasonal. Also Japan isn't a well known skiing destination like Colorado. To top it off ANA and JAL have free complimentary domestic flights. Alternatively you could use the Shinkansen (Bullet Train).
If someone really wants to enjoy Hokkaido they will find a way to get there.
drine2000@reddit
Other airlines offer international seasonal flights from CTS and charge a premium for it.
Reaper-fromabove@reddit
I don’t know enough about how airlines handle seasonal spikes like that.
According to ChatGPT basically the spike is real but it only lasts about 3 months, not enough economic incentive to move crews and airplanes around plus the threat of winter weather diverts.
And other carriers already serve Sapporo.
Chronigan2@reddit
Because it won't make them money.
IllustriousAd1591@reddit
4,900 foot runway, that’s very short.