Returning to UK, ebikes rules...
Posted by Departed00@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 56 comments
I've been living in south east asia for over 10 years where i've built and ridden a few different ebikes over the years. There's no laws regarding ebikes here so it's been great.
I eventually settled on a 48v 500w conversion, enough power and a nice ride. I will return to the UK next year and want an ebike there, but the laws seem so draconian and crap it almost seems pointless...250w, no throttle etc. The no throttle is the biggest problem. Having a throttle is great and allows for intuitive riding. I don't blast around, but sometimes it's great to have that throttle to coast for a bit or get started with shopping on the bike etc.
How does it really work in the UK? Do most people chance it and use higher wattage motors and throttles, or is it totally draconian and strict with bikes being seized left right and centre?
Ok-Assistance4133@reddit
It really depends where you live.. here in remote Scotland police are seldom seen and when they are they don't seem to care. But its still illegal. People drive electric scooters all around and those are not legal either. Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean its ok.
LexLex07@reddit
So if it's illegal, probably we need to gather and lobby it to be legal instead of fearing for ourselves?
BoringBob84@reddit
It is legal. Motorcycles have throttles. Bicycles do not.
stormdelta@reddit
I'm aware of what the UK laws say, but I've yet to hear any convincing argument for why they make any sense.
A throttle does not magically turn an otherwise identical e-bike into a motorcycle, and if anything improves cyclist safety when dealing with road infrastructure by reducing time in intersection. The bike would still have the same limits on speed/power, the only difference is a extra way to control the motor output.
BoringBob84@reddit
It effectively does that in the USA. "Class 2" ebikes (with throttles) are allowed on non-motorized paths. This law is widely abused. Electric motorcycles with impractical, ornamental pedals just barely meet the strict legal definition and they are easily modified for even more power and speed. These are increasingly common, and the people who ride them (mostly teenage boys and young men) are generally inexperienced and careless.
I think that the point is to ensure that ebikes are not significantly more dangerous than standard bikes near pedestrians and other non-motorized users. Damage and injury in a collision are proportional to the square of the speed. A collision at 30 MPH will do nine times the damage and injury as a collision at 10 MPH!
Even 15 MPH is excessively fast among pedestrians, but it is a pace that a reasonably-fit rider could maintain on a standard bicycle.
stormdelta@reddit
There's no effectively when you state right out that ebikes with throttles are in fact legal in the US. In any case I was speaking generally, not legally.
Making class 2 ebikes illegal would do nothing to stop any of that, it would just bar responsible people from having a legal route to practical bikes.
What you're really arguing for would be stronger enforcement of existing laws.
I was talking about throttles, not speed. You have a bad habit of conflating those on this sub, and have been called out for it multiple times.
Again, I was talking about throttles, not speed. In any case, safe speeds vary widely depending on context and infrastructure. 15mph is a reasonable limit for a dense urban area with good infrastructure, but inadequate when dealing with commuting through car-centric suburban hellscapes for example.
BoringBob84@reddit
It absolutely would. A low, wide, flat seat, a single speed, fat tires, and enormous weight makes those bikes impractical to pedal. Without a throttle (or ghost pedaling), they would be useless.
Yes, I was talking about speed. Apparently, it is not obvious to you that the easier that something is to do, the more people will do it more often. In this case, it requires virtually no effort to hold the throttle at maximum power and speed, and that is what happens.
These are motorcycles - not ebikes - and they are not safe among pedestrians.
stormdelta@reddit
Then target the things that are actually a problem instead of using throttles as a weird, indirect, and ineffective proxy. Tons of bikes with throttles still look and handle like bicycles, and don't look anything like what you're describing.
For that matter, fat tires don't even belong in that list to begin with. I think they're over-hyped to hell, but it's not weird to see fat tires even on non-electric bikes.
I genuinely don't understand what point you imagine you're making here.
So what if people do it more often or easily? The entire point of the limit is safety, if that limit isn't safe, then it's a problem regardless of how easy it is. And if the limit makes sense, then it still makes sense regardless of how easy or not it is to hit.
If someone is riding recklessly or at unsafe speeds for the path/conditions/etc, then enforce that. If the police/cities can't even do that much, then they certainly couldn't enforce throttle restrictions anyways, and if they can do that much, then they wouldn't need to enforce throttle restrictions.
BoringBob84@reddit
I understand that you don't like the law, but that doesn't mean that the law is not justified.
I think that lawmakers in the EU, UK, Australia, China, etc. have done a better job of maintaining pedestrian safety while preserving the utility of ebikes than the USA has. Dramatically increasing collision and injury rates in the USA are evidence of that.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2024/07/428096/electric-scooter-and-bike-accidents-are-soaring-across-us
I think that the UK and other countries would be wise not to cause the same problems in their countries by loosening ebike laws.
LexLex07@reddit
Where is the line between overpowered e-bicycle and underpowered motorcycle?
Ok-Assistance4133@reddit
Anything with a throttle is not considered a bicycle in the UK. They also have different rules about motorbikes depending on how many cc the engine is/ equivalent electric hp so there are plenty of lines that are well regulated
BoringBob84@reddit
The laws clearly define those lines in the UK and other countries.
Ok-Assistance4133@reddit
Yes you could do that or just get an m license and pay road tax,get plates for your bike
LexLex07@reddit
Road tax? Really?! For what?! For smelling petrol exhaust most of the time? For being vulnerable for ANY car driver? For not even damaging anything for years?
Hell naw, I'll better fight back instead of blindly sheeping the rules which offense me.
I'm already paying enough tax just to see potholes and faulty light poles, thanks for suggestion.
Ok-Assistance4133@reddit
Dude I don't make the rules here. Just reporting what they are
LexLex07@reddit
Ok, got it, but it's all up to you, to ask for changes in your local laws or not, hope you'll do you part for our electric community!
MickyBee73@reddit
Here in West Yorkshire they've (the law) been put occasionally in groups of about 6, setting up catch points to get people on e-bikes to stop / check the power & speed capabilities of the bike.
If found to be over 250 watts of power, and faster than 15.5 mph (25 kmph) then you lose your E-bike, and it gets crushed.
It's a shame we can't have the 750w limit, and 28 mph or even 20, as 15.5 mph is pretty unsafe (in my opinion).
Maleficent_Falcon_63@reddit
250w is fine. Speed should be lifted to 20mph though.
LexLex07@reddit
250w is awful
even 350w motor can't outperform a kid on a bicycle (we did a drag-race)
MickyBee73@reddit
Exactly, only last night I had a ride on a friend's brand new 'Merida' mid-drive 250w e-mtb (£5,000 it cost) and other than having really nice suspension and brakes (too keen) it was awful whenever you hit 15.5 mph and the power just stopped (limited). Can't say it was a memorable ride at all, and it's really put me off thinking about going 'legal' and buying a similar E-bike.
verb-vice-lord@reddit
Pedal too.
250w is almost the standard for being a tour de France rider.
There are some good arguments for making changes, but the power isn't it. Higher torque 250W motor powered cargo bikes move large loads comfortably.
stormdelta@reddit
Strongly disagree. Speed, weight, and to a lesser extent bike design are the important factors for safety.
Power is at best a very indirect proxy for those, and should be the most flexible limit, as higher power allows for simpler and cheaper setups that are lower maintenance.
LexLex07@reddit
"Tour De France" is not about crappy heavy bicycles with deflated tires bro, why are you comparing this to our issue?
Cargo bikes? Really? What type of cargo will it move? A box with toilet paper?
And what about of people with special needs who weighs 2-4 your mass? Don't say anything, just keep it real - 350w is a bare minimum, we need changes!
MickyBee73@reddit
Yeah, 20 mph would be a lot better. 👍
BoringBob84@reddit
... unless you are a pedestrian.
MickyBee73@reddit
They should be on the pavement, whereas the E-bike should be on the road Bob. 👍
BoringBob84@reddit
Are there no shared paths in the UK?
MickyBee73@reddit
On most what you would class as a 'shared path' now Bob, such as my local "GreenWay" the authorities have, and are now introducing signs that say "No Motorised Vehicles Allowed!".
This covers motorbikes, e-bikes, and pretty much only allows riding a normal ("acoustic" as posh folk say 😅) peddle bikes on there.
It's ridiculous really, as it's not so long since the law stopped me on there (2 cops on large enduro motorbikes) and tested my E-bike (which I'd quickly lowered the max speed to 15/16mph) and they lectures me for some time about e-bikes, legal allowed wattage etc, etc... They let me go on my merry way after telling me to get off the Greenway at the next exit, and to NeVeR ride on there again, or I'd be waving goodbye to my bike, and it would get "Crushed"..
It's an absolute piss-take, as I was seriously considering throwing in the towel, and just buying a nice 2nd hand 250w (legal) e-mtb for around £2,000... But now I'm thinking "What's the point if I can't even legally enjoy certain nice riding spots that are local to me, I might as well think sod it, and just ride a full powered E-bike regardless of the dumb laws, and regulations" 🤬
BoringBob84@reddit
Where I live, all ebikes are banned from un-paved, non-motorized trails on much of public land because of complaints from hikers and mountain bikers about the kind of erosion and dangerous behavior that does not come from careful people riding legal ebikes.
It is frustrating that the law punishes everyone for the bad behavior of a few people, but that is often the reality.
MickyBee73@reddit
Worst thing is the local Greenway has just been widened, and resurfaced as it's basically just a long, 8 mile path / road (I measured it on a steady night ride 6 months ago), that people walk on, walk dogs etc, and also ride horses on there (that crap all over the place), and yet now not even road legal 250 watt, measly powered e-bikes are allowed on there..
I get that there are clowns who spoil things for everyone, but It's beyond ridiculous really, that now not even road legal e-bikes are allowed to go for a peaceful, leisurely ride on it.
All the best Bob 👍
BoringBob84@reddit
I agree! 👍 Where I live (US-WA), legal ebikes are allowed on shared paths. All of the paths have speed limits - usually 15 MPH - that apply to everyone - even MAMILs.
There is one local path that is near a "bark park" (for dogs) and that is very busy. A few years ago, a MAMIL was racing through there, hit an elderly woman, and killed her. So now, the speed limit is 10 MPH and they patrol it to enforce it. I'm glad that they didn't ban all bicycles (although I don't doubt that many people wanted that).
LexLex07@reddit
20-22 is the sweet spot for city riding!
MickyBee73@reddit
Exactly, as 15/16 mph is a bit too slow, if anything it's a bit dangerous going too slow in traffic.
stormdelta@reddit
250w sustained is fine for pedal assist lightweight mid-drive bikes.
It's insufficient for most everything else, and speed limits are way more relevant and important.
E.g. I use a direct drive hub motor because it's simpler and lower maintenance. But it needs more power to reach the same torque as a mid-drive, especially peak power, yet it physically can't go much faster than legal where I live even without a software limit.
HerrFerret@reddit
The police have been parking minibuses in the town centres round here and picking up eBikes.
They are starting to crack down unfortunately.
A 250w mid drive motor is allowed to peak at 500w, if you get the highest volt battery you can fit, it will be OK.
Set your speed limiter to sensible, and enjoy the ride. Unfortunately too many idiots on what were essentially eMotos with pedals have ruined it for everyone.
genuineforgery@reddit
UK & EU ebike laws are a nightmare. Thankfully Australia has avoided the worst of this bullshit. Commiserations and good luck.
gham89@reddit
From a UK resident: the laws are fine as is.
LexLex07@reddit
Yeah, you can't fart or swear withut getting a fine, cool laws bro
gham89@reddit
I just fucking farted.
No fine.
Apprehensive_Oil_808@reddit
If you want a motorbike, which is what you have been using. Get motorbike license. If you want an ebike, buy a pedal assist and start cycling. Or just stay in asia.
Departed00@reddit (OP)
Hardly a 'motorbike.'
Apprehensive_Oil_808@reddit
ok Eped.
LexLex07@reddit
Mobility scooter with extented range and speed.
Apprehensive_Oil_808@reddit
Which are limited to either 6 or 8mph and registered to DVLA
BoringBob84@reddit
According to the law it is.
iregreteverything15@reddit
Thank you! Why is this so hard for people to understand? If you want a motorbike, then get a motorbike license. I feel like so many people are trying to have their cake and eat it too. "I shouldn't have to get a motorbike license, insurance, registration, tax etc. because I'm special! How can I skirt regulations? Please help me. "
Apprehensive_Oil_808@reddit
Don't get me started on parents buying their kids ebikes that hit 30mph or the scooters.
BoringBob84@reddit
I agree. Many people want the privileges of a bicycle and the performance of a motorcycle without the responsibilities of a motorcycle, and they don't care how much they endanger other people.
UnionFeatures@reddit
I think you can have more power and a throttle etc, but you'll have to get insurance and the appropriate license.
sc_BK@reddit
Make sure you get some stickers to say your bike is road legal
LexLex07@reddit
and set the speed limiter to <25km\h
Electronic_Cream_780@reddit
I have a throttle, but 250W and 15mph limit. Currently there are crackdowns but they are mainly picking up delivery riders being reckless in the city centre. Cycle carefully, keeping to the Highway Code and you aren't worth the paperwork they have to complete if they seize it. People will have an issue if you use cycle paths, which are frequently shared with pedestrians, with a 500w going at 30mph
pau1phi11ips@reddit
Bit different to Copenhagen last summer, the amount of cargo bikes that blasted past me in the cycle lane was insane. They have a 15 mph limit and you can pay for special insurance to have a 28 mph limit. I'd set ours to 15 mph to be on the safe side if we were stopped and it was kinda scary.
scootbootinwookie@reddit
They want you to either use a bicycle or a motorcycle.
Ill_Cheetah_1991@reddit
It is possible to get a single vehicle certificate to have a throttle - the Pedalec website has some discussion of it
but basically the concept it that to be legal it is "just a bike" so you have to pedal but you do have some assistance
Anything else is a motorbike and has to have MOT, Registration plate, helmet, driving licence and al that.
Jedski89@reddit
I get started on my e-bike with shopping very easily without a throttle. But yes people chance it and get away with it for the most part. Tho i have personally seen multiple times police confiscating bikes.