Religion.
Posted by ujore@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 40 comments
Simple question: Is Europe far better with Christianity than Islam? Everyone is very worried about immigrants here and saying that Islam is spreading in a dangerous way. What do you guys think? Here in Albania for example,a lot of people are being paid by Arabs and Muslim organizations to convert.
Refugee_InThisWorld@reddit
All monotheist religions are the same in principle. Christianity, especially the catholic and protestant one, adapted to European mindset and western civilization, or vice versa. Islam is a younger religion and will undergo such phase. Eventually, islam will modernize but it will take centuries.
Eastern_Click_4361@reddit
Islam doesn't have centuries to modernise. It will crumble like a house of cards.
Eastern_Click_4361@reddit
If you want an opinion, look at the societies these 2 religions have created and choose which one you want to live in. That is your answer.
FordFreeState@reddit
The version of Islam that Muslim Albanians and Bosniaks adhere to is fine and is compatible with European values. The Islam that MENA follows is not.
Royal_Association750@reddit
None. Have you ever read what’s in there? The only reason Christianity goes well for the west is because they don’t do what the Bibel tells them to. No Christian country is really a Christian country. At least not in Europe. Any religion is just a mind colonization imposed by other nations or circumstances. Also there have been Christian missionaries coercing people into conversion since forever so the Islam example is not really crazy.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Only except all ’’western values’’ are based off Christianity.
No-Championship-4632@reddit
All "western values" are actually based off the Enlightenment which is about rejection of Christian theocracies and secularism.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Imagine that Theocracy and Religious Moral Values are two starkly different things.
No-Championship-4632@reddit
The same Religious Moral Values (tm) existed in the Dark Ages too when people were dying together with the rats on the streets from plague and people were burned alive for claiming the Earth orbits the Sun, so no.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Wow, now imagine that Religions Moral Values like Honesty, Humility, Love, and Forgiveness aren't in any way shape or form related towers Theocratic Dictatorship where the Catholic Pope claims himself to be mightier than the Emperor of Rome.
No-Championship-4632@reddit
Which is basically the same "values" of all Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Islam included. What's so "western" about them?
Royal_Association750@reddit
1 Samuel 15:3 — “Now go and strike Amalek… kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”
Deuteronomy 20:16–17 — “Do not leave alive anything that breathes… completely destroy them.”
Psalm 137:9 — “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”
1 Timothy 2:11–12 — “A woman must learn in silence… I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man.”
Deuteronomy 22:28–29 — “If a man rapes a virgin… he must marry the woman, and he can never divorce her.”
Numbers 5:27 — “Her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry…”
Leviticus 25:44–46 — “You may buy male and female slaves… they may become your property and be inherited.”
Exodus 21:20–21 — “If a slave dies after a day or two, the owner shall not be punished.”
Ephesians 6:5 — “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling.”
Leviticus 20:13 — “If a man lies with a man… they shall surely be put to death.”
Leviticus 18:22 — “You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.”
Romans 1:26–27 — “Women exchanged natural relations… men committed shameful acts with other men.”
Exodus 35:2 — “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.”
Nice values broski 👍
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Nice copy pasta, wrong testament :(
BamBumKiofte23@reddit
It doesn't matter, religion is just another tool in the play for power.
We're a region that has experienced being cool with multiple religions in the past AND extreme religious hatred because the tools up top wanted to control the public, why should we get sucked into that bullshit one more time?
Teodosij@reddit
Religion can be used as a tool in the play for power, but that's not what religion ultimately is. The people who have been in power in Greece for the last 200 years certainly don't want you to follow Christ.
biokaniini@reddit
Even without extremism, religion is a bad thing. You do not respect minds, bodies and identities of the people, you do not respect people outside your cult, you completely disregard basic human rights, and you get offended when someone points that out.
Teodosij@reddit
Yes I do
No I don't
anythingcirclejerker@reddit
So are you pro-abortion or for same sex marriage?!
Teodosij@reddit
No.
anythingcirclejerker@reddit
So yeah, you do not respect it because I'm pretty sure you vote for parties that don't want to allow that. So what you said up there is straight bullshit.
BamBumKiofte23@reddit
Sure, I'm with you but the context matters: what OP is ultimately asking is whether Europe would be better off with Christianity or Islam, and in that context religion (and the various cultural and spiritual controversies it generates) is just another tool in the European politicians' arsenal.
What religion ultimately is is a huge and very important conversation since it's both one of our most ancient tools and (for a lot of people) guides. But that's not worth getting into when it's not the topic at hand.
As for Greek politicians: fuck them anyway.
MisterWithTwister@reddit
Europe became what it is because Catholic church started loosing its influence with the emergence free thinking and its spread with the printing press.
fesagolub@reddit
Extremism in any form is the problem (religious, political, etc.). A mild interpretation of any major religion (Abrahamic or otherwise) is not the issue.
Religious extremism is nonsensical, most of us can agree. But overly simplistic generalizations about one religion vs. another is similarly naive. Neither Christianity nor Islam are the problem - ignorance is.
Teodosij@reddit
Religious extremism isn't the problem, certain religions are.
If you were to follow the teachings of the Orthodox Church to the letter, you'd probably end up in a monastery. If you were to follow the teachings of Islam to the letter...
fesagolub@reddit
Your view of Islam is comically too two dimensional to engage with seriously. If you understood the doctrine from both, you’d see they were fundamentally the same. Study both with an objective lens and you’ll arrive at a similar conclusion. Mainstream interpretations (if such a thing even exists) are largely byproducts of socioeconomic realities: they’re seldom rooted in doctrinal nature.
Teodosij@reddit
Says the guy who claims that Orthodoxy and Islam are "fundamentally the same" LOL
TheEagle74m@reddit
Ask Dearborn, Michigan residents how things are going.
PlamenIB@reddit
In Bulgaria the religion doesn’t play any role for a reason
Teodosij@reddit
That's a shame
johndelopoulos@reddit
If islam dominated it probably would
ItsTooLateIToldYouSo@reddit
As a romanian, I can’t agree. Religion interferes in politics here all the time, and from what I’ve seen, Bulgaria faces similar issues. Neither of our countries is exactly immune
azuratios@reddit
Yes I think it is better, but I am not worried about immigrants neither its spread. Anyone who says they are no "better" or "worse" religions, really haven't been paying attention to foreign/non-Abrahamic religions. If you don't know much about foreign religions, you might know Mormons (promotes self-loathing, extremely misogynist), JWs (promotes narcissism, ensures that you have a weak family structure and no social web outside of the church) or Scientology (money scam).
Islam & Christianity are too similar so you can make many arguments. For me, the only convincing argument is fatalism. Regardless of sect, a muslim needs to believe the Quran is the word of god and is always correct. This is an inherent weakness imo. And it also appears in Christianity with any sect that adopts biblicism like evangelicals and the sects I wrote above.
When a sect adopts biblicism, even people that are secular and barely care about god or religiosity, they have to uphold certain values to not be shunned from their community. And these can be very harmful in their society like we see the evangelicals in the US fighting abortion and LGBT rights even though those are "american values" and therefore the fight only causes division and hatred.
OmeletteDuFromage95@reddit
What sort of asine nationalist far right fear mongering sources are you getting your information from? Brother the Muslim population in Europe is 6%. 6. Thats a minority of a minority lmao and that's the population AFTER the mass migration crisis caused by western nations.
defnotachicken@reddit
World is better without ancient stories.
ContributionLatter32@reddit
Yes
5cozi@reddit
Yes
Tiny-Mulberry-2114@reddit
Islam isn’t the problem, it’s the extreme versions of it that some people bring with them. Countries like France and Germany have had Muslim populations for a long time and there were rarely major issues. The problem now is that such a large influx of people makes them postpone assimilation as everything you had over there ,you have here barber shops, grocery stores, restaurants etc. When immigrants arrive in big numbers they feel less pressure to adapt and some may keep perspectives that don’t fit well with the values of new country especially when those perspectives come from places where things like infidelity or personal freedom are punished extremely. So the concern should be about integration and extremist attitudes not about Islam as a whole. At least that's my opinion.
Mazakaga@reddit
The difference between christianity and islam. Christians doesnt follow it actually. Slavery, polygamy, witch burning, prohibition of interest, stoning, holy war against infidels, pedophily. Countries that dont follow strict islam are chill too
VisibleReport5008@reddit
best to keep it all mild
SEND_ME_FAKE_NEWS@reddit
The Balkans hate each other for many reasons, but religion is not usually one of them.