Does low range matter anymore (for new vehicles)?
Posted by Loose-Wheels@reddit | overlanding | View on Reddit | 51 comments
Hey all, pretty much what the title asks. With modern 8-10spd transmissions with super low first gears, more power/torque in modern engines, is it really necessarily to have low range in overland vehicles anymore? Technical off-roading I get it, and vehicles like Wrangler Rubicons have significant reduction ratios, but seems like modern low-range TCs actually don't even have that low of a reduction ratio anyways.
mister_monque@reddit
there is no replacement for a 2 speed transfercase when you need one. my 6 speed becomes a 12 speed. no amount of super low 1st can take the place of being in 4th in low range because it's the right match of ground speed, wheel speed and surface traction.
Kerensky97@reddit
Exactly. The argument that "I only drive on pavement so is it needed doesn't really work" Even if many trails are easy, and many people never go on tough trails, there's going to be one bad spot, one washout, or one steep descent where you're going to need it so vehicles built for offroad travel are still going to need 4x4 basics.
One of the main reasons you have low range os that when you ride your brakes too long going down hill you're going to cook, fade, then lose them. It doesn't matter how much computer controlled ABS you have, once the brakes are gone you've got nothing to slow yourself.
PonyThug@reddit
Your not going to cook your brakes going slow. There isn’t much energy going into them, and plenty of time to dissipate heat.
sideefx2320@reddit
I absolutely cooked my brakes going as slow as possible in a Land Cruiser. Almost died the last 4 minutes of that experience
PonyThug@reddit
Driving where? If you went down a super steep trail that was 20 miles long and over a mile of elevation maybe. Or just stop for 5 mins half way and let them cool.
Sounds more like you were overloaded, had cheap pads, or maybe rear drums etc. or I’m just spoiled with the brakes on my f150 that can handle heavy payload weight plus a trailer just fine.
sideefx2320@reddit
Unloaded 60 series with brand new brakes on a highway descending several miles downhill for 45+ minutes. Not just the drums or the pads but the fluid itself gets so hot it doesn’t make a difference. To your point - we had low gear and in that situation it didn’t make enough of a difference to save the brakes. You need high compression, diesel really, to hold a heavy vehicle with the engine over a consistently steep grade for a long period of time
PonyThug@reddit
So you were going fast enough that low range wouldn’t have worked anyway. Gotta pick gear 2-3 and let the rpms be high.
People were taking about the difference between gear 1 in normal range, vs going into 4low specificly to get even more engine break. Thats what I was referring to about not needing it.
sideefx2320@reddit
Yeah we were in low 3rd or 4th and pushing past redline. Brake check before the switch backs. By the time we truly lost brakes it was too late to stop and cool them
PonyThug@reddit
Sounds like you were likely going to fast for the very undersized braking system on the vehicle. It’s been literally impossible to cook my f150 brakes unless I’m maxed out payload or pulling a trailer with no brakes, AND going the speed limit for 20+ mins down a mountain, AND it’s hot summer temps.
This is just my experience of owning multiple different vehicles in the mountain of Utah.
Kerensky97@reddit
It doesn't take much to cook brakes when you're putting a lot of load on them, especially when you've been overutilizing them all day because you don't have a low range:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbkTncjEOs
PonyThug@reddit
That video is from 50 years ago when vehicles had brakes half the size of today, no ABS, and probably drums in the rear.
Brakes get hotter from driving down a paved mountain road in the summer at 45mph for 20 mins than they ever will from driving 10-15mph down a trail. Top of my local canyon is 9400ft. The flat road connecting that canyon to My house is 5000ft. So 4400ft in a 20 min drive at 40ish mph average.
I’ve gotten my brakes to smoke on that road when I was fully loaded and going fast. They don’t if I slow down 5mph and give the rotors an extra 3-5 mins of time to dissipate heat on the same route.
DrewSmithee@reddit
Not that this was a 4-Lo situation but speaking of engine braking… what’s the max RPM y’all will engine brake to? I was coming down the mountain on a state route, ended up at like 4,000 rpm’s in 3rd gear doing like 60. Needless to say I got on the brakes. Truck red lines at like 5,200.
jrw16@reddit
I wouldn’t bang it off the rev limiter but I wouldn’t be too concerned with engine braking at 4000 with a 5200 redline. Depends on the engine of course but generally you’re fine unless the valvetrain is old and unhappy
DrewSmithee@reddit
Fun fact, the rev limiter doesn't work going downhill. The hill just keeps pulling.
But yeah, it's a new taco. I figured I'm good there, I was just curious how close to the danger zone everyone will take it and for how long.
Idk I feel guilty banging on the conn rod caps for 10 minutes at 80% of redline.
jrw16@reddit
I guess I’ve never actually tried to redline an engine like that but it makes sense… no fuel to cut. The more you know
mister_monque@reddit
I would suffer less gears if it meant more ranges. but I tasted a unimog 20 speed so... I know what's good.
I've spent probably as much time in low range on pavement as out in the shit, driving in deep enough snow because you have to often necessitates low range 5th gear and just cruising at 30, lift the pedal and it's like a Jake brake.
Frequent_Detail8724@reddit
Low range is definitely needed still. With newer 8-10 speed autos, you can do decent speeds in 4lo
Ballamookieofficial@reddit
If you use it off road yes absolutely.
treedavy@reddit
It’s really helpful backing a heavy trailer up a hill and not cooking your torque converter.
211logos@reddit
I think so.
But might depend on the weight of the vehicle.
I have a ¾ truck, and it's definitely a plus. And the truck has this nice descent feature where in 4xlow it just walks down steep hills without me having to futz with it at all.
Thing is it's usually included, at least with trucks, if you get 4x4.
yachius@reddit
High gear count automatic transmissions have a lower 1st gear ratio but it’s still a far cry from a transfer case low range. A Ford 10L80 has a 1st gear ratio of 4.696:1 while a 4L80 has a ratio of 2.48:1 but the 4L80 with a typical transfer case low range of 4:1 results in a 9.92:1 ratio to the driveshaft. If you needed a transfer case with a 4 or 5 speed auto, you’ll probably still need one with a 10 or 12 speed.
Name_Groundbreaking@reddit
What transfer case do you have with a 4:1 ratio? That sounds like an Atlas or something equally custom to me
yachius@reddit
A stock Wrangler Rubicon comes with a 4:1 low range.
Name_Groundbreaking@reddit
Huh. Neat, thanks for sharing
I mostly drive 70s and early 80s GM stuff, and an NP205 or NP205 is 2:1. An NP208 gets you 2.6:1, but with much reduced strength. Even my brand new Sierra is a 2.72 low range.
I have an aftermarket doubler box in front of one of my 205s that gives 5.33 or so with the case and doubler in low, but I didn't realize anything stock came close to that. That truck also has a 6.55:1 first gear in the trans so it gets pretty low.
yachius@reddit
The stock stuff is all over the place because the OEMs usually also offer multiple diff ratios so the full drivetrain package could end up having an even lower final drive than a super low transfer case. In the case of the Rubicon they come with a 4.10 rear end so they’re still usable on the highway and then the 4:1 low range gives it great but optional offroad crawl gearing. An NP205 with a 4.88 rear end can give a similar final drive but then you need to drive on pavement with that 4.88.
Doublers are the way to go with custom rigs, what are you running it in?
JCDU@reddit
Depends on the use-case - for a hell of a lot of 4x4's and SUV's these days with 8+ speed autos, they can throw a very low 1st gear in there and between that & the torque converter you cover 99% of people who ever buy the thing.
Obviously for really serious off-road stuff, being able to drop the whole box by 2-4x:1 and gain the torque & control is still preferable but that market is small by comparison.
DAKSouth@reddit
You can tell someone doesn't do serrious offroading when they ask if 4L is necessary. Do you even go down hills bro?
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Yeah, my 4:1 transfer case is addictive as hell with a manual
GuestExciting6896@reddit
90% of the time I kick it into low range is for going downhill without using my brakes. The other times are temporary for steep inclines.
ausbaxter86@reddit
Might be an Australian thing but definitely.
I spend a lot of time in high range in my Hilux but the times I've needed low and it's locker, it's been the difference between driving out and either getting pulled out by a mate or getting out to winch yourself.
BC999R@reddit
I have an AWD Transit with 10L80 and EcoBoost, and I don’t really miss low range because of the trail is that steep/rough I probably shouldn’t be on it in 9’ tall and 20’ long 8500 lb vehicle. On the other hand when I had a stick shift Subaru, I could have used low range or at least a torque converter to avoid excessive clutch slip, due to low ground clearance and no underbody protection … using momentum to get through rough spots was risky.
Competitive-Reach287@reddit
I've been in situations where I needed low range more than I needed 4WD while off-roading. Think high-traction but very steep or rough.
Just-Context-4703@reddit
Yes. No substitute for mechanical leverage and a real transfer case if you're going into the rough stuff.
speedshotz@reddit
Try descending a steep talus slope without 4-Lo and having to ride the brakes and tell me if it matters. I don't know if vehicles with the "crawl mode" button have the same degree of control, do they?
Remarkable_Ad5011@reddit
I use my low range for pulling heavy stuff around or when I want to be able to move a vehicle on/off an obstacle with less throttle input.
peakdecline@reddit
The Wrangler Rubicon's 4:1 ratio has always been an exceptionally low range. It was not common to find 4:1 or even 3:1 ratios in stock vehicles. The typical range you see today, something a 2.56:1 or 2.72:1, was also the common ratio you'd find 40 years ago too.
Modern 8-speed and 10-speed transmissions do have slightly lower first gears... but its not some massive difference. You absolutely still benefit from the low range ratio in a two speed transfer case.
And those benefits are in multiple areas. Its not just about increased torque in a rock crawling scenario. But also situations like descending steep grades for extended periods, you get superior engine braking in low range, saving your brakes. It's less wear and tear on multiple aspects of your engine.
So... yes low range absolutely still matters. Just as much as it always has. Hell, maybe even more because vehicle weights and our load outs are heavier than ever.
myownalias@reddit
If I were buying a vehicle for going up and down mountain "roads", it's a definite requirement. The most important is avoiding brake fade on big elevation drops. Second, it's easier on the transmission when crawling up.
I find low range more useful than the center diff lock in my 4Runner with full-time 4WD.
DrZedex@reddit
Do they matter? Absolutely, they're indispensable to those that use them. The lowest gear in these 10sp isn't remotely close to 1st/low in my old 5sp.
Is it important for you, specifically? Can't tell you that. 90% of owners don't know what it's for anyhow.
DeafHeretic@reddit
I don't have a "LO" in my AWD SUV that has an 8 speed transmission with 4.7:1 first gear.
Both of my 4WDs (a pickup and a truck) do have manual 5 speed transmissions. The truck has a "granny" first (5.6:1), the pickup does not (3.9:1). I sometimes use first gear in the truck to move it slowly in my driveway and/or when I am turning it around/etc. - in part because of its long wheelbase.
I typically use "LO" in the transfer cases off-road. Both my pickup and truck are diesel powered so I don't usually need "LO" on the road.
fpssledge@reddit
My trail buddy drives 2wd high range MOST of the time in his 4runner. It's built up and big tires. Some rock crawling it's pretty capable.
On the other side of that, I'm almost always in 4 low range I try and switch pretty often. For several reasons.
Comfort. It's just more comfortable when your engine isn't struggling as much. Less slippage even though slippage is minimal. Less boundiness on gravelly or washboard type roads. I just enjoy the smoothness. Even though the vehicle is capable of not needing low range for everything it's just nice. If i had a rig with the those two paddle shifters, I'd probably run 2wd low range. It's not necessarily about the traction needed. The gearing is just smoother off road.
Drivetrain stress. 4low is generally less stressful on off road terrain. A simple gravel road is probably fine. But I'm often climbing a few thousand feet in elevation maybe two or three times in a day. Or random rocks and boulders. My last rig i never monitored trans temps but i have quite often in my new rig and the temperature difference is dramatic. Your vehicle is doing a lot to normalize engine temperature but likely doing nothing about trans, transfer, or differential temperatures. If you're running 2wd all the time on trails, you're most definitely reducing longevity. That said, changing fluids more often probably helps against severe problems. My buddy kinda wants to see his diffs go so he can buy new gears any way.
tl;dr Use 4low when you can. It won't immediately make or break something but there's really nothing to gain by sticking in 2wd all the time
AWD is a different story but I'd say generally do low range on trails for all the same reasons.
dot_files@reddit
For rock crawling you 100% need low range. Can be useful in other scenarios too.
LiveMarionberry3694@reddit
If you’re driving on maintained gravel roads no
If you want to do something that requires torque and control, yes
Speedy_SpeedBoi@reddit
In addition to most of the comments. An 8 spd transmission makes low range even more usable imo. I suppose it depends on where you are wheeling, but here in AZ there is a lot of stretches of washes or just rocky af. It is not that its particularly difficult or "technical" its just that I can't go fast or I get bounced around. Low range with an 8 spd transmission makes it much, much easier to stay in control of the speed on these types of roads.
Prestigious_Loss_671@reddit
I would add on to what the others said about the clear gearing advantages, is the mechanical strength built Into the gears themselves in the low reduction side . As someone who has rebuilt and resealed several transmissions and transfer cases, the reduction gear is much stronger and beefier then the gears in the transmission. It takes a lot of the load off the more complex component.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Depends on where you are and when you're there. Here in Washington, 99% of open forest service roads are doable in a stock Subaru when there's no snow.
scotttydosentknow@reddit
I’m in Washington also and I get your point but low range is definitely needed here in a larger loaded down vehicle going down a steep long grade or towing something. There’s a lake I fly fish at outside Loomis and if I’m not in low range coming down off the mountain it will smoke the brakes in my Land Cruiser (ask me how I know 😂)
foodfighter@reddit
If you view a transfer case like an extra set of tools - the answer is you don't need it until you do. And you never know when it might come in handy.
Last time I towed a travel trailer with my rig, all of the low-speed maneuvering in campsites was done in low-range. Waaaaay easier on the primary transmission.
Is it worth paying extra for? That's up to you.
bluespringsbeer@reddit
Whoa, that is good to know. Definitely low speed maneuvering will get the transmission temp up really fast, which can be trouble when you arrive after driving several hours through the mountains.
midnight_skater@reddit
Modern digital drive train control systems are pretty amazing BUT there is no substitute for a transfer case with low range. The mechanical advantage provided by the gearing ratios cannot be created in software.
Similarly, limited slip software mode cannot duplicate a locking differential.
Suitably equipped AWD vehicles can handle easy to intermediate terrain but for difficult terrain you still need true 4wd
RagnarKon@reddit
Still useful.
Back in the days of 6-speed autos, 1st gear typically had a gear ratio of around 3.9 to 4.5 depending on the exact transmission. Your typical 2-speed transfer case is probably around 2.5 - 3 gear ratio. Which means your gear radio to the differential is around 9.75 to 13.5.
Today's 10-speeds automatics have first gear around 4.3 - 4.8. So... yeah, I'd say low-range gearing transfer cases are still useful.
I do think other advancements in traction control systems make low-range on transfer cases a lot less useful for the average daily driver. But for overlanders and off-roaders, still has a place in my opinion.
yachius@reddit
High gear count automatic transmissions use narrower gaps between gear ratios to keep the engine in an optimal rpm range more of the time. The 1st gear ratio is not any lower and usually the highest gear will also be the same 1:1, there’s just more steps in between. If you needed low range with your 5 speed auto you’ll still need it with your 10 speed auto.