Troi describing a situation Picard would later find himself in

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Ralph--Hinkley@reddit

Same thing happens at the end of "Loud as a Whisper."

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Worf_Of_Wall_St@reddit

I like how Picard shouts loudly at negotiation Jesus as if the additional volume is going to help.

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I guess the difference being in Darmok the universal translator is still actually working, it's just that they had a different style of speech. If the UT was really not working they would have never had a chance of understanding each other in the way that they were finally able to.

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CupcakeConjuror@reddit

tbh, as much as I adore this episode, I do feel the entire situation could have easily been resolved by having a few linguists from both sides just sit down together.

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Marquar234@reddit

Menosky and LaZebnik, when the plot holed.

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erinaceus_@reddit

The creative writer, his arms wide.

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SciFiNut91@reddit

Yes, but that's because you don't rely on the UT as the Feds do. It takes significant parallel thinking even for that to work. and even then, linguists would have required a significant sample of the language, as well as knowledge of the history of the Tamarians to begin to understand the memetic communication of the Tamarians. Temba, his arms open.

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treefox@reddit

That’s the problem with relying on AI

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SciFiNut91@reddit

Not AI though - just very sophisticated software. It would be like asking a regular person today to do file taxes for a business in a language they don’t know, with rules that are generally similar but not the same. Or trying to explain political governance between countries. E.g. compare the German, English and French governments without making any mistakes and capturing all the nuances.

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CupcakeConjuror@reddit

So, this is why both sides would need to send linguists. They will give each other what they need to understand each other. They'll hand over walls of text, histories, audio transcripts, and sit and talk. They would also work first to forge a common ground, effectively making a simplified method of communication that can then be used by both sides to better understand each other.

It is very likely that plenty of people in the Federation immerse themselves in the nuances of language, study language as a way of better understanding other cultures. After all it is a post scarcity civilisation with access to replicators.

And you have to imagine the universal translator is not infallible, what about every race that uses sign language, or some other form of communication. What about when power outages occur? What about historians studying other cultures, simply translating language is not enough to best gleam their ancient societies.

Heck, we see people on the show speak a whole host of languages, we hear bits of untranslated French, plenty of Klingon. We see the Universal Translator failed on other occasions. We see Data talk about the etymology of words and phrases.

This suggests that people as a whole still have a deep respect and understanding of language, and their brains haven't been fried by the Universal Translator.

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TheDeadlyCat@reddit

Did they have any?

To me it appeared like the Universal Translation had become so good when doing first contacts that it put people out of their job.

Basically what AI is doing now with actual translators but much much better.

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CupcakeConjuror@reddit

I believe they would.

The Federation is a meritocracy, people do stuff because they want to and don't need to work to live. You will have plenty of people who will indulge and immerse themselves in language. Heck if you want to understand a society, learning their language and how it evolved is important.

Plus, what if the Universal Translator ever failed? What if a race used sign language or something non verbal?

And you don't need skilled Linguists to do the job. You just need people who are willing to learn. The initial language work would be forging a way to communicate that both sides could use to better understand one another.

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Arubesh2048@reddit

Yeah, the trouble wasn’t in the words, the translator had no problem with the actual language. It was how the Tamarians used their language that was the problem. It was more like how the Youths™️ today use all sorts of slang and memes that is not easy to understand the meaning if you don’t already know the context. You’re speaking the exact same language, but you’re not using it the same way and it leads to a breakdown in communication.

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Sanctu5150@reddit

I always wondered how the Tamarians drew up the schematics for their star ships using only metaphor.

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gisco_tn@reddit

IIRC, the opening captain's log explains that the Tamarians sent a probe that communicated a bunch of equations and whatnot, as well as the coordinates for their meeting at El-Adrel. The Tamarians could convey mathematical concepts, but apparently they wanted to learn how to have a conversation?

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vaderdidnothingwr0ng@reddit

The craziest part of this episode is when Picard tells the story of gilgamesh, NOT SPEAKING IN ALLEGORY, and the alien fully understands it and then uses an allegory of that story he'd just heard to communicate a feeling.

This stubborn bastard could have just used plain words to explain what the hell he was trying to say at any time, he was just choosing not to.

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BlueFeathered1@reddit

What I don't understand is how the Tamarians could teach their lore to each generation in order for them to then make metaphor out of it without at some point speaking more or less plainly. Like, Troi uses the example "Juliet on her balcony" to Riker, but that only makes sense because there was a precedent linear story basis that had been explained before.

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Flannsie_Goblin@reddit

They could explain the stories visually. An image of Temba that an adult points out and calls Temba, points out his arms being open and then displays an act of sharing. It may not be the easiest way, but things rarely occur the easiest way.

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BlueFeathered1@reddit

That would make some sense to me. Maybe they have a big artistic part of their culture that teaches with something like stage plays (or the holographic version), immersing kids in the meanings.

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ThePrisonSoap@reddit

How are our children capable of comprehending the name "Chris" without knowing the story of saint Christopher carrying baby christ being carried across the river?

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Worf_Of_Wall_St@reddit

Since "Juliet on her balcony" is not a common phrase Riker needs to know the lore for it to make sense, but if it were a common phrase he's heard all his life he would have inferred the meaning at some point and from then on would understand it without needing to know the story.

People use phrases all the time where they know the meaning of the phrase as a whole but don't know the story behind its meaning.

For example, to "butter someone up" means to flatter them. Everyone knows this and the meaning even seems clear or obvious but that's only because we learned the phrase as a whole, not because it inherently makes any sense or because of familiarity with its origin (which is actually from ancient India where people threw butter at statues of gods to seek their favor).

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Grimjolf@reddit

But isn't that the same problem that is overcome when any child learns their first language? When you hear a word for the first time you have no idea what it means and you might not know the words others would need to explain it to you either. Yet it can be explained through actions and examples. Just as how the Tamarian's metaphor-speak is taught to Picard. You don't need to know the story what the metaphor refers to in order to learn the meaning, and then once you know the meaning of the metaphors the stories can then be told with them.
That's how I've understood it at least :)

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BlueFeathered1@reddit

It's very confusing. Tamarian children would have to learn two languages? Their actual verbal language, and then the metaphorical one? But between them it's probably more complex, as with Picard he was using the must basic concepts of it, probably.

In any case it's very evocative as a story. Quintessential Star Trek.

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Launch_The_Cat@reddit

His arms wide!

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Sad_Assistant8803@reddit

Picard, when Troy's words fell through!

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FriendlyNative66@reddit

Troi, when the trousers fell.

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Valuable_Ad9554@reddit

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ZookeepergameMean575@reddit

Computer, generate 8 foot tall futanari versions of Bryce Dallas Howard and Eva Green. Reprogram to give them severe maternal instincts, but make them think that having sex with someone is the same as protecting them. Alter their perceptions to make them think that I am their son. Disengage safety protocols and run program.

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