Why didn't data just smash everything in the room?
Posted by blyattBear@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 114 comments
He tried forcing the door open, and then physically attacking Kiva. Then he tried passive resistance methods. Why not start destroying the items in the room, or hold them hostage? They were very valuable to Kiva. There are people super-gluing themselves to priceless art in today's world.
PangolinMandolin@reddit
Kivas would just say "for every item you destroy, I will kill one of my crew" and Data would be forced to not destroy anything.
If you want a head canon, once Kivas threatens to murder his assistant over Data's non-compliance he's smart enough to realise his best option was to find an escape rather than perform any further acts of defiance
robotatomica@reddit
this was what I inferred for sure. Data would not have taken any risk except the most carefully planned. He would not have risked non-compliance.
Side note, this is one of my favorite TNG episodes. Kivas is absolutely terrifying, a totally believable sociopath.
And of course one of a few times I think we are quite explicitly shown that even without the emotion chip, Data already had or has developed proto-emotions to some extent (Hell, they could even be decently developed, and he would not know to assess and categorize them thusly, since he would always be contextualizing what he “feels” and experiences through the “knowledge” that he does not have emotions. So when he feels an emotion, he naturally assumes that real emotions other people are feeling are experienced differently)
CromulentDucky@reddit
He also lies about shooting the phaser. I don't think it was clear before if he could lie, since he was sort of a replacement of Spock, and Vulcans claim not to lie.
X-1701@reddit
Technically, we don't know if he fired the weapon. It's implied, but then outright denied. The writers left it ambiguous so each view could interpret how they wished.
Bo0ty_man@reddit
How so? It was clear the weapon was discharged right when he was beamed out. He absolutely pulled the trigger.
robotatomica@reddit
yeah, now that you mention it, I always hear people say it was meant to be ambiguous, but there’s really no ambiguity in the details that are shared with us, is there? The only ambiguity is that we do not expect Data to lie. But he is very clearly doing so.
X-1701@reddit
The weapon discharged, but that doesn't mean Data fired it. The transporter could have caused it to fire. That's the clear implication.
CromulentDucky@reddit
He also motioned as if to fire immediately before he was beamed away.
robotatomica@reddit
the writer left room for us to be uncertain; I’m no so sure Brent’s performance did
Ciserus@reddit
He could lie, he was just really bad at it.
There's a reference to it in this episode when the crew talks about how hopeless he is at bluffing in poker.
The brilliant part is that every time Data is shown player poker after this episode, he's a master player.
This is the episode where Data lost his innocence.
robotatomica@reddit
whoah. I never noticed that about the poker playing, that’s fucking brilliant! Did you ever see it discussed, by Spiner or the writers? Did they deliberately write him differently immediately after The Most Toys?
I’m gonna enjoy paying attention to this on my next watch-through!
Icenian_King@reddit
They wanted to explore it further but that would have required a permanent character who was capable of detecting and analysing changes to an individual after an event or mission. 😂 There are two events here: the killing of Fajo, which ironically enough would be more efficiently carried out by an emotionless machine unimpeded by feelings of guilt or remorse, and the ease with which he lied to the people he considered family.
robotatomica@reddit
to your first part there, that sure sounds like a job for Deanna Troi, right? If they’d used her as a counselor a little more?
What a great plot line that could have been, actually. Members of the crew notice strange but subtle changes in Data’s behavior, less overall easy cheer..Picard asks Troi’s advice, not at all considering therapy for him, but she suggests some sessions with him. There she teases out some growing jadedness and internalized anger after reckoning with the cruelty of Fajo, etc. etc. and we maybe discover some more hints that Data is actually dealing with some big change inside himself.
PyroNine9@reddit
He exaggerated...
Scaramok@reddit
Data didn't technically lie here though. When asked why the Disruptor was in a state of discharge before transport he answers "something must have happened during transport." And Data is correct in that the Weapon was disabled during transport constituting "something happening", he just avoids answering Rikers question in the way Riker meant to ask it.
LLAPSpork@reddit
It’s a lie of omission. He said something like “it is possible something occurred in the transport” which is technically true.
CaptainMatticus@reddit
Nah, man, that was just a malfunction. He would never fire a Varon-T Disruptor in an attempt to take the life of an unarmed man.
OrangeFire2001@reddit
I think (believe) that he did. The only logical way to stop a tyrant, a madman, a murdering lying stealing (maybe raping) criminal of a man, in this instant where Data did NOT know he was going to be beamed out in 2 seconds, was to kill him during that chance he had.
[I also get your sarcasm there.]
dsa_key@reddit
That would require an emotional response to Kivas' crimes, which he is incapable of.
ravynwave@reddit
I hated Kivas so much that it took some time for me to get used to him when he was on Frasier.
dufflebag7@reddit
The actor who played Kivas, Saul Rubinek, was born into a “displaced persons camp” after his parents had survived the holocaust. After his family moved to Canada, he was bullied for speaking poor English.
I have no evidence, but I think he channeled his early childhood experiences into this role. You can see how an oppressor who thinks he is “better” than people who are different than him can cause so much pain, because they don’t care about their victims at all. Kivas was terrifying. And, unfortunately, terrifyingly believable.
This is a great episode.
CMDR_ACE209@reddit
And he had no preparation time since he was a last-minute replacement for the actor who was originally cast for that role.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kivas_Fajo#Performer_change
BeautifulArtichoke37@reddit
The original actor killed himself before they could finish filming.
Unfair_Pineapple8813@reddit
Yeah. Definitely part of it is that Saul Rubinek radiates being a nice warm, fuzzy guy, which he is, and he plays Kivas as an absolute stone cold monster.
robotatomica@reddit
I saw it the other way around, Frasier first, so I was primed to see him as a jovial and generally likable guy..which I think was an awesome way to experience that performance. Because he’s indeed very friendly and benign-seeming in the episode, and then you’re like WHAT THE FUCK
knarfolled@reddit
Or Warehouse 13
Scavgraphics@reddit
or Leverage and Nero Wolf.
N546RV@reddit
I bet many of us could empathize with this. How many things have we experienced in our lives, and then months, years, or even decades later, suddenly realized “oh that was [name of thing we never thought to associate].”
I never realized I had bad vision until my mom took me to an eye doctor as a kid. I was nearsighted in one eye and farsighted in the other, and I just thought it was cool that you had one eye for seeing stuff close and one for stuff across the room.
More recently - and maybe more relevant to your comment - one day I had the abrupt realization that the ringing in my ears is tinnitus. I knew what tinnitus was, it was no secret to me, but like you said, I just never thought to connect it to what I was experiencing.
robotatomica@reddit
I really struggled turning that thought into a coherent sentence (the part you quoted), so I’m glad to see that it made sense to you! Yes, this is exactly my point, how do we know what anything is supposed to feel or be like?
If I am told I don’t see anywhere near as many colors as a mantis shrimp, no matter how many dazzling vivid colors I see, I will always have to contextualize that whole other worlds of color exist, perhaps indeed my experience of color (and the world!) is mute by comparison.
Now, I know from science, from verifiable things like the structure of a mantis shrimp’s eyes and brain that this is true, so I just accept this relative difference. But of course Data knows his technical specifications, and what he has learned from his creator, it is a FACT to him that he doesn’t have emotions.
But he’s not fully considering the “black box” nature of his kind of technology (something we encounter even now with LLMs), he’s not considering that the WAY some of his technology works is not fully known, and he’s not considering that perhaps when a thing is created to so closely approximate human beings, perhaps some of whatever element that makes us capable of staggering development will also naturally emerge within his neural network.
And anyway, more importantly, why would he even bother to question whether or not he feels the way humans do…he sees that he does not act and react the way humans do. His emotions do not distract or compromise him. He does not have spontaneous or overwhelming outbursts. He does not cry or erupt in rage.
So there is no outward or obvious evidence to Data that he is like us.
Of course, there’s an element of nurture. He HAS self control but also was never socialized with emotions, so not only would he not have an instinct to behave the way humans do, he wouldn’t have learned this behavior.
And so, he sees that he is clearly different, and also uncompromised. What would make him even consider “Hey wait, I actually feel anger and sadness and pain the way humans do.”
It is funny to me though how all accept that he is able to experience true wonder and delight, to be playful and easily amused and joyful, and somehow this is not clear evidence to himself and all that he is obviously capable of feeling.
mglyptostroboides@reddit
The years I spent denying I'd ever been attracted to other men. I rationalized it by clumsily redefining what romantic attraction was, since I'm not physically attracted to men the way I am to women, I was effectively implying that love and sex were the same thing.
Then one day I read about an asexual couple who were happily married and I realized that their description of how they felt about each other is literally just how I've about some men and I had to admit to myself that either they're not in love or I'm some species of bi. Since emotions aren't transferable, you have to label them yourself, but oftentimes you mislabel them while you're figuring it out.
N546RV@reddit
This actually reminds me of another big moment in my life. The first decade or so of my professional career, I had this persistent feeling that everyone else was better than me. Every time someone talked about how great I was at my job I wondered how they could think that, and I was always nervous that one day they'd figure out how little I knew.
Then one day I heard someone talk about impostor syndrome. Holy shit, there's a name for this, which means it's something that lots of people feel. Just knowing that changed how I saw things. The feelings were still there, but they'd been completely reframed in my mind.
161frog@reddit
This is also one of my all time favorites, too. Particularly due to how fucking scary and cold Kivas is. But Data is kind of scary as well.
JagoHazzard@reddit
He really is. Even before the ending, the episode really puts it in your head that Data could just straight-up kill a guy if it came down to it.
MarkB74205@reddit
The chemistry between Brent Spiner and Saul Rubinek is amazing. So much so that the two shared many scenes in Warehouse 13 years later, with the roles sort-of reversed. Amazing show (with a lot of Trek love, and a few Trek cameos. Off the top of my head, Spiner, Jeri Ryan, Kate Mulgrew and Rene Auberjonois).
Kahnza@reddit
I've watched Warehouse 13 beginning to end at least twice, and I don't recall ever seeing Brent Spiner, or any other Star Trek actors in it. There is some overlap with Eureka, though.
MarkB74205@reddit
As someone else said.... "You must use the astrolabe."
Plus I'm pretty sure there's a scene where Pete calls Steve "Mr. Data" and there's a cut to Artie and Brother Adrian (Spiner) straight after.
Scavgraphics@reddit
I'd have to check, but even without, I'll easily bet Frakes directed a bunch. He built a rep as the top of that kind of TV direction.
MarkB74205@reddit
I think he did, as well as doing some of the Librarian movies and I believe some of the episodes of the show.
I also forgot my favourite W13 Trek cameo: Armin Shimmerman playing the closest thing to Human Quark you'll see.
Scavgraphics@reddit
oh, he's a frequent directior on John Rogers productions (Librarian, Leverage).. I think he might have been a producer on Librarians tv series...
knarfolled@reddit
You must use the astrolabe
DiscountEntire@reddit
I too consider this Episode to be one of the best of tng.
MalagrugrousPatroon@reddit
I like that, because he definitely has, and is aware of, arbitrary motivations in the form of subroutines. He has the one which prevents him from taking a life, but we see it's not an iron clad rule, it's a complex motivation which can be overridden for something greater. Whether it is an emotion or not, in that instance, he made a value judgement a truly emotionless machine could not make.
The-unknown-poster@reddit
And his crew would just mutiny and jettison him out an airlock, kill or release Data then sell off the remaining pieces and scatter.
MortStrudel@reddit
Yeah his first defiant act of just being silent and not complying was clever and nonviolent, with a plausible chance of working, so it makes sense that he would try it first. Then by the time he has finished that ploy he has already been threatened with people dying, so there's no point where going mental on the museum would make sense.
ridelance@reddit
Data recognizes the unique and irreplaceable nature of the objects.
TheKeyboardian@reddit
Picard would have told him that materialism no longer holds value, so he should just get on with it.
baphometromance@reddit
Picard, the archaeologist, would have said this?
The-Spirit-of-76@reddit
Yep smashed everything he ever dug up.
Demerlis@reddit
like that priceless statue he just tosses aside in generations as hes salvaging through his ready room
Aggravating_Mix8959@reddit
That actually bothered me more than it's supposed to. That was his priceless gift in The Chase.
TheKeyboardian@reddit
He had already scanned it into the replicator, so the original article no longer held value to him
IntrepidusX@reddit
my head cannon is the original is in a museum and he replicated one to sit in his ready room.
Sasquatch1729@reddit
I like to believe the same thing. I prefer to believe that Picard and Sisko were not taking real artefacts onto a station/starship that almost gets blowed up every month, and the real artefacts are being researched by some grad students out there.
Battle_of_BoogerHill@reddit
The baseball?
So every personal object is locked up or in a pattern buffer somewhere?
No way.
What a waste. Of every object ever
Sasquatch1729@reddit
I was actually thinking of the African art that Sisko has on the walls of his quarters.
seamustheseagull@reddit
I mean, any archaeologist worth his salt would do exactly that. Very risky carrying around priceless artifacts on a starship for vanity.
Tall_Newspaper_6723@reddit
I like this
Aggravating_Mix8959@reddit
I have been to the Picard Museum at comic con and it was there.
Sasquatch1729@reddit
Not only that, he blew up a thousand year old Promellian battle cruiser in Booby Trap. Because dropping a beacon or something and having Starfleet send a follow-up mission was too easy.
xxcloud417xx@reddit
Picard, the breaker of his little ships.
BuffaloJEREMY@reddit
Picard, his ship smashed.
Dirt290@reddit
I can confim
Borg453@reddit
Older action Picard might have, but then we don't speak of older action Picard
Lilricky25@reddit
Because it's Interstellar Warehouse 13.
Believyt@reddit
He has respect for them, and respect for himself. He would very well have destroyed himself if he saw the other items in the same sense. He's a good guy and would never harm such priceless artifacts and beings for his own gains or agenda
Outrageous-Pause6317@reddit
slobcat1337@reddit
What happened in this episode again
45runs@reddit
Starting with Kivas’ head
TheEvilBlight@reddit
Wait...Saul Rubinek?!
strangway@reddit
I hope Ben Sisko got that baseball card.
epidipnis@reddit
He traded it for a container of self-sealing stem bolts.
strangway@reddit
Self-sealing stem bolts can always be traded for reverse-ratcheting routers.
AppropriateYellow347@reddit
The objects did nothing to him. Also, at some point he starts holding his own crew hostage or make it aware that he was already to force Data's compliance. But I can't remember when that happens in relation to Data's chance to destroy stuff.
ObiRyaNKenobi@reddit
Crazy thing about this episode is that Data (1) chose (morally justifiable?) murder as a course of action: and (2) lied to Riker afterwards about his intentions. Very human!
shylocker4154@reddit
I think he just says "Something happened in transport". Which is the truth, he pushed the trigger to end that mofo
ObiRyaNKenobi@reddit
Still a lie of omission by any reasonable standard, imo. I wonder what was in his official report lol
shylocker4154@reddit
But probably not strictly against his programming...and another moment of Data becoming more human
ObiRyaNKenobi@reddit
Yes, exactly! Or at least that’s my opinion as well
BosomBosons@reddit
Fun fact the real “Persistence of Memory” is about half that size.
epidipnis@reddit
He had it Tuvixed in the transporter to make it bigger.
JugOfVoodoo@reddit
Data is an artist. He probably couldn't bring himself to destroy someone else's work for his own sake.
Now if Fajo had a second hostage Data might have considered it to secure their release.
punknothing@reddit
What would imply that Data has feelings, which he does not. - Dr Pulaski
Cyneheard2@reddit
Basically everything Pulaski says about Data is shown to be incorrect.
ky_eeeee@reddit
...did Data not say that about himself like, every other episode? Him not being able to feel emotion was like, his entire thing.
Cyneheard2@reddit
He says it but he very frequently shows that to be false. Especially in this episode.
Marquar234@reddit
She can't even get his name right.
haresnaped@reddit
Kivas has a forcefield to defend him from Data coming too close. Why didn't Data decapitate him by flinging the Mona Lisa or bludgeon him with the chair. Or frankly take off his own arm and use it as a spear. Data without his ethics is terrifying (much like humans, only Data is more modular).
abraxas8484@reddit
Haha you cant touch me when I'm in my forcefield, Mr Data. * Proceeds to just toss him and his forcefield into the door at mach3 speed*
PipeMasterPerry@reddit
Because I wouldn't make for a good storyline and would be very out of character
Achmed_Ahmadinejad@reddit
It's been a while since I've seen this, but why didn't Data just stay so close to Kivas that he could never leave the room without Data doing so as well?
FairNeedleworker9722@reddit
Destruction is illogical. It would not further his escape, likely only restrict him further. Nor would destroying the collection gain him any favor with potential allies or help him contact the Enterprise. Fajo has the ability to disable him and if it came to it, would likely resort to data being a head on top of a box.
Im_scared_of_my_wife@reddit
Ethical subroutines
Ok_Dimension_4707@reddit
As others have said, Data knew the Fajo would have no hesitation to execute someone in retaliation. So holding the collection hostage would just create a standoff Data couldn’t win and destroying something would just lead to death.
Also, it’s mentioned at the end that the collection is returned to the original owners, which means Data probably recognized some of the things legitimately weren’t Fajo’s and therefore he’d be threatening someone else’s property, which would be ethically dubious.
Also, I’m going to go ahead and brag that I’ve got that card!
It’s one of my favorites because the Topps 1962 #1 Maris made an appearance in this episode. I mean, I’d also love a ‘51 Bowman Mays rookie card, but that card is far out of my budget
Crimson60652@reddit
The end of this episode is great when Data visits Kivas in the brig, seemingly just to tell him he’s lost everything. Kivas says Data must take pleasure in their role reversal… Data says "No, sir. It does not. I do not feel pleasure. I am only an android". Which is basically like a giant F U to Kivas. This was right after Data lied about trying to kill him with the Varon T. It definitely seems like he is gaining emotional awareness in this episode…
SportTop2610@reddit
Cause he wants to be human so he acknowledges the beauty in items humans love.
bbbourb@reddit
Doing so would have likely risked the lives of Kivas's crew. He's already threatened lives once to punish Data's disobedience; there would be nothing to stop him from doing so again.
LancerCreepo@reddit
It wouldn't help. Arguably it would actively hurt, because fewer valuable objects in Fajo's collection would make Data's value to him increase.
Upbeat-Treacle47@reddit
Data was really screwed here. It took brains not braun to win.
dekabreak1000@reddit
So do you think data pulled the trigger or something happened during transport
dgmib@reddit
Data doesn’t have emotions (at least not at this point in the timeline) he’s not bothered by his temporary captivity like a human would be. He determined there were no immediate opportunities for escape, at least not any that wouldn’t risk lives, his most logical course of action is to simply wait for an opportunity to incapacitate Kiva and/or escape.
quigongingerbreadman@reddit
Data is non-violent. On top of that, he knows his captor has zero problem with wanton violence up to and including murdering his crew in spectacularly violent and painful ways to punish Data for any perceived slight.
Data, by his very nature, is a pacifist. He will endure anything to save life and only ever commits to using his abilities to harm when it is the only option to save others.
Competitive_Ad399@reddit
Data is not Lore.
SBJames69@reddit
I think his ethical program would have recognized the cultural value of many of the items in that room. I imagine that was an option, but that he would try everything else before destroying them.
SloppyMeathole@reddit
How many other times in the series did you see Data use his strength to solve problems? I'm sure on Star Trek Discovery they would have had him go psycho cyborg, but in the next generation they still adhered to the spirit of Star Trek, which was cooperation and problem solving without violence unless necessary.
SPECTREagent700@reddit
https://i.redd.it/nrmfjmx8014g1.gif
Slainlion@reddit
Scene security
Adadun@reddit
Obviously Data knows that all of these objects are artifacts in Warehouse 22, which Kiva is the lead agent for.
EmPURRessWhisker@reddit
Yes! Thank you! Also some of his collection are artifacts from Stargate Command, which must have been why he went undercover there to do the documentary. They clearly needed to be contained.
Tazalawless@reddit
There is a lot to consider with this question, but the short answer would be something along the lines of: it would be detrimental to the continuation of life.
This is a single minded person, who holds absolutely no value to life. So, it wouldn't be difficult to presume he'd have no issue 'deactivating' data by any means, he'd still have an original, it just would be like a piece of art; he'd be admired for form and existence above all else at the least.
Smashing everything only guarantees termination, at least if he is alive, the chance for escape can still present itself.
RedditOfUnusualSize@reddit
Well, also, Data doesn't run on the same timetable as everyone else. Subsequent aging programs aside, Data has centuries in which to formulate an escape plan. Kivas may not be entirely right about Data being merely the sum of his programming, but he's also not entirely wrong in that Data isn't humiliated by his confinement. Nor is he hurt by his confinement. Those would be emotions, and by his own admission, no, Data really can't feel those things. So there's no pressing emotional need to alleviate the problems induced by confinement right this second, because there's no pressing emotional need, period.
So yeah, while Lore would turn the entire room into confetti if he were confined, Data has been pressed to no such extremes. His ethical subroutines are still working just fine, and they're probably telling him that destroying a priceless artifact will have a low probability of securing his release, and will be cruel and capricious in the meantime. And it doesn't occur to him that if Fajo is cruel to him, that he should be just as cruel in return; the logic does not track there. He can wait, and watch, and secure his escape by other means, as he proves when he successfully turns Varia against Fajo only a day or two later.
Tazalawless@reddit
I'm assuming you're writing as an additional to my comment as I'd not suggested any emotional considerations. I'm suggesting that It's a simple case of self preservation, the need to stay alive. A cornerstone of life in any regard. More so with Data's Programming.
But you do bring some vary valid points to the table.
RJ_Bachler@reddit
As answered by others, Kivas would hold the lives of other over Data head, and Data would do his best to preserve that life.
The other thing is that Data would come to the conclusion that most, if not all, of Kivas' collection was probably acquired by illegitimate means, and getting those items back to their proper owners without damage would be best.
Aezetyr@reddit
Rampant destruction is not in his character.
watanabe0@reddit
I feel like this is answered not just in the episode, but in your own question.