Quick question for those that watched TOS to the first episode of TNG… did you realise Worf was Klingon before it was said given the difference in appearance between the two series?
Posted by applepiemakeshappy@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 103 comments
Honestly all in the question, besides the add on of how did you react upon seeing such a different presentation of them. I’d like to hear from all levels of obsessions from casual to devout only requirement is having seen TOS before TNG
Jedi4Hire@reddit
Klingons of that type appeared first in the movies, then in TNG. So for most Trekkies, it would not have been a surprise.
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
But even then the absurd difference from series to movie is absolutely nuts I mean a mustache being replaced by an entire biological head evolution that continuously changes
Fabulous-Sea-1590@reddit
I've always heard Roddenberry 's response to this was that the Klingons always looked like they do in The Motion Picture (and on); they just didn't have the money to show it in TOS.
Personally, subjectively, I'm fine with that. In fact, I prefer it. I know what I'm watching is make believe. I don't need time spent connecting the dots. If it's cool, it's cool.
So I didn't need an explanation for Han Solo's name. It's just his name.
Doctor Who has gotten downright silly about this. On the classic series they reused actors without batting an eye. There's a limited pool of actors and, if the production liked working with them, they might get invited back for other roles. End of.
But, now, they always have to lampshade it with some strained explanation of how the characters are related by blood or sci-fi shenanigans.
Same with Klingons. Worf's line like "we do not discuss it with outsiders" was more than enough and fit the tone of the DS9/TOS crossover. The whole involved plot they spun it out to? Unnecessary as far as I'm concerned.
To quote Bandit Heeler, "It's just monkeys singing songs, mate."
thirdeyefish@reddit
I was fine with it, too. Then Enterprise did the thing it did, which I didn't like. Now, watching that scene leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
MolybdenumBlu@reddit
I still would have preferred they just make Michael Dorn look like a classic Klingon in tribbleations and never comment on it, but "We do not discuss it with outsiders" is almost as good.
epidipnis@reddit
They could have switched him for a white dude in TOS makeup, and not have anyone "notice" the difference.
Leucurus@reddit
Ha! That would have been really funny
Felaguin@reddit
The problem with that would have been explaining how and why Worf changed physically. I like how thev handled it on DS9. Later shows taking it too far isn't their fault.
MolybdenumBlu@reddit
No, you see, they just never explain it. Never comment on it. Never acknowledge it. If anyone ever asks, you just refuse to even consider that they look different.
Worf always looked like that, what are you talking about.
Fabulous-Sea-1590@reddit
Actually, seeing Dorn in classic Klingon drag would be/have been hilarious.
Woody_Stock@reddit
It probably wouldn't have spawned the Enterprise "explanation" which would have been better.
QualifiedApathetic@reddit
Someone told me that apparently the writers came up with the virus thing because some fans complained about ENT Klingons having forehead ridges and they desperately needed an explanation.🤦♂️
epidipnis@reddit
Not sure why they :desperately needed" to explain anything, though.
The augment storyline was more an attempt to fan service some stories and get original trekkies back to the TV.
I feel like it's more tongue-in-cheek than anything.
Arubesh2048@reddit
I thought the Augments arc was one of the best plot lines in Enterprise…
Appropriate-Meal-975@reddit
I will upvote anyone quoting Bandit Heeler.
EffectiveSalamander@reddit
I would have been fine with that. I could have been a style difference - Klingons of the TOS era might have thought it was cool to wear their hair short in back but covering the ridges in the front. Kind of like being embarrassed at pictures of yourself in a white disco suit.
Ellimistasaurus@reddit
Love this explanation. Channeling Bandit Heeler just is perfection.
Cupcake-Time@reddit
Totally. Perfect explanation.
clammycreature@reddit
See also: DS9 S5E6
https://youtu.be/vlYVDIVT7Nw?feature=shared
Stuck_In_Reality@reddit
Artistic license. They are ALIENS. Not evolved on Earth. Just look at the wide variations of humans that evolved here. And we are all H. Sapiens. One species. Peace Out.
PseudonymousDev@reddit
Your question was about Worf, and it was answered pretty well - nobody was surprised because of the movies. If you want to complain about the change in Klingon design between TOS and the first movie, you have a point. But it isn't what you asked originally so you'll get down voted.
Twisted-Mentat-@reddit
For any human who can realize that a feature film with a large budget being produced almost 15 yrs after TOS, is going to have a modernized look, there was no "backlash".
Your usage of the word "absurd" is absurd.
TimeTravelingPie@reddit
Star trek 3, which introduced the new Klingon design was a few years before TNG. So it was well established what the new design was.
So if you were into Trek, you knew. If you never watched Trek, it didn't matter. If you ONLY watched TOS and no movies..maybe?
Aggravating-Try1222@reddit
People were far less likely to overanalyze media like we do now. The average viewer same the new Klingon look, came to the most logical conclusion, "Oh, they have better makeup now," and moved on.
ABC_Dildos_Inc@reddit
Most of what was in the films was a big difference.
My headcanon has always been that the media is made in a universe where a version of everything actually happened.
The stories of what happened were sent back in time and were told with the shows and films.
Which were affected by the interpretations of the people involved in the productions, budgets, technology and social norms of the eras... and most of all, the requirement to be entertaining and commercially successful.
That's why I didn't like hard retcons like Scotty on TNG and Worf visiting TOS, just to make it canon that TOS era really did look exactly like a 60's TV show.
But we're now long since so far down the rabbit hole with parallel realities, time travel shenanigans and character assassinations which are not referenced again from tge next episode onward, that I don't sweat the details.
The good stuff too good and personal for me.
QualifiedApathetic@reddit
It was a major retcon, yeah, but they did make it clear that we were seeing Klingons, so I expect most people just went with it, especially since the Klingons had always been supposedly another species with biology different enough that Bones could identify them with a quick scan, and they just looked like a bunch of humans in yellowface. I wasn't born yet, but my reaction to them properly looking like aliens would have been positive.
LOUDCO-HD@reddit
Timeline of Klingon appearance evolution.
1967: Klingons have smooth foreheads and are very human-like, most likely a product of limited budgets.
1979: In The Motion Picture, Klingons inexplicably have ridged foreheads, and a more menacing appearance. Attributed to the larger budget associated with a movie.
1987-1994: The entirety of The Next Generation airs with ridgey Klingons, and no one even acknowledges the difference.
1996: In Deep Space Nine: "Trials and Tribble-ations" Worf acknowledges the different look, but will not discuss it.
2005: Enterprise episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence" explain the whole Augment Virus being responsible for the different look.
jrgkgb@reddit
You forgot
2017: Klingons are inexplicably redesigned to look like insects.
2019: The backlash from doing that is so severe they walk it back.
quetzalcoatlus1453@reddit
I liked how the Klingons in Discovery season 1 didn’t all look alike.
jrgkgb@reddit
Just doing that would have been fine.
Making Klingons not look like Klingons didn’t really land though.
True-Syllabub-6846@reddit
The Klingons in Discovery didnt look like insects lol but im not a fan of them being changed though
jrgkgb@reddit
Looked pretty insectoid to me.
Also… purple?
AnnieGoldleaf@reddit
I still don't understand how that was a bridge too far.
milbfan@reddit
Don't forget about the Great Tribble Hunt undertaken by the Klingons. :p
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
1 & 2) I get the series to movie difference but how was it accepted? Just as a sorta eh… or more of a “who cares”… or more of a “what they doing?”
3) TNG continues the movies to keep continuity
4) my favourite DS9 episode acknowledged it but I want initial reactions before the canon was setup
5) see 4 minus the favourite episode part
LOUDCO-HD@reddit
In general, the 18 years between the TOS ending and TNG starting meant there was a whole new generation of viewers with little knowledge of how they used to look.
For me, I was just so happy that the series was being refreshed that while I noted it, I just accepted it as a natural evolution of filmmaking makeup.
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
I know there was a new crowd which is why I’m asking those who saw the first series,(not movies) before TNG how they accepted the change given how much of a change it is
InteractionWhole1184@reddit
You’re going to be hard pressed to find a Trekkie fanatical enough to have a strong reaction to the Klingon redesign, but didn’t watch the movies.
qtjedigrl@reddit
People keep answering the question but it seems like you want a different answer. It was just "oh cool, bigger budget, better Klingon." The end.
Frosty558@reddit
Enterprise really didn’t add anything to Trek outside of retcons and nonsense.
Electronic-Plan2736@reddit
I loved those scenes in "Trials and Tribble-ations." Great episode.
Acrobatic-Shirt8540@reddit
Malnurtured_Snay@reddit
Yes, because his makeup matched (mostly) that of the Klingons in the movies...
... and also one of his very first lines of dialogue is, literally, "I am a Klingon!"
bongart@reddit
Ok. To answer the question of how I accepted the change, when I saw The Motion Picture when it came out... I was a 10 year old kid. I grew up on TOS reruns. I stood in line around the Seekonk Showcase Cinema with my parents two years earlier to see Star Wars.
I saw the new look for the Klingon ship, and the Klingons on board. I knew they weren't Romulans because of the facial hair. Unfortunately, I was all "WOW" from just the intro and initial visual effects. I can only remember thinking "Ooh! Neat!", which I continued to think through most of the film.
There was no "What did they do the Klingons?". Everything I knew about Trek got an upgrade of one sort or another, in that movie.. the Klingons, Starfleet, the Enterprise, the uniforms, the crew, the effects, etc. And I was 10.
Fabulous-Sea-1590@reddit
Reading your comment reminded me – I had a harder time accepting Scotty from the movies when I was a kid.
Like, TOS and the movies were all just one thing to my 4-5 year old mind, but James Doohan's appearance had changed enough I didn't even understand he was the same guy exactly.
Which is silly unto dumb but I was very little.
epidipnis@reddit
Yeah, thst was quite a change for poor Mr Scott.
bongart@reddit
It was probably the mustache.
Here's a semi-related FYI... did you know he only had 9 fingers? He lost his right middle finger on D-Day, 1944, storming Normandy beach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Doohan Turns out there's a ton of interesting details about him. Like, how he was Canadian, born of Irish parents.
seamo242@reddit
Agree with this 100% - very similar to my experience and thoughts. Romulans also got new foreheads in TNG and I didn't think twice about it - just advancement of effects.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Not gonna lie, I did not care for the Romulans' new look, and still don't. In TOS they make a pretty big deal about the Romulans and Vulcans being so similar that even the ship's sensors have a hard time telling them apart.
Bensfone@reddit
Gene Roddenberry said something along the lines of they always had ridges. He sort of hand waved it away because of limited budget and lack of prosthetic know-how of the time.
epidipnis@reddit
They always had ridges. You just couldn't see them under all that blackface.
epidipnis@reddit
Klingons were already that design by the movies, so TNG was nit a big surprise. It was interesting to see him played by a black man, since the TOS Klingons were always like Russians or Chinese politically.it might have taken away from the political overtones of the original a little.
JAFO_John_D@reddit
A. Most fans saw the movies, which had the updated Klingons B. The previews for ST: TNG all mentioned that Worf was a Klingon. So we knew it.
watanabe0@reddit
There were 4 TOS movies, Klingons got the redesign in TMP and were the main antagonists of Search for Spock. Ignoring all the publicity prior to TNG starting, everyone knew what a Klingon looked like at that point.
Spendoza@reddit
Hold up. 4? Are we not supposed to talk about Final Frontier and Undiscovered Country?
Fabulous-Sea-1590@reddit
I misunderstood that too.
ZookeepergameCool30@reddit
The next generation was already out by the time those two movie came out.
Spendoza@reddit
Ope, understood. Think it might be coffee time 😅
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
Ok but was there any push back from it like when seeing the movies weee folk going, “ WTF were those?” Or more of a general ok
NearbyImpression7940@reddit
Initial pushback yes, but the Klingons were only briefly featured in TMP. By the time we saw them significantly was the 3rd movie, so we’d all pretty much accepted it at that point. Same with when Worf first appeared a few years later.
Theories were thrown about by fans after TMP. Most fans loved the very subtle “non-answer” explanation later given in DS9. I’m personally also okay with the full explanation eventually provided in “Enterprise”, which basically just expanded upon a popular fan theory.
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
Excellent
thearniec@reddit
I don’t remember fan theories. I remember the RPG book I got in the late 80s or early 90s explained Klingons did half-breeds to better relate to new cultures. It had drawings of half-human Klingons (TOS design), hall Romulan Klingons and then a pure blood Klingon had the head ridges.
I thought it was a weird explanation but I went with it. I was 12.
QualifiedApathetic@reddit
That explanation was obviated by Kang, Kor, and Koloth appearing on DS9 with forehead ridges.
NearbyImpression7940@reddit
Yup, I remember a lot of speculation I read and heard about in the 80s and 90s. One idea suggested that there were different types/races/classes of Klingons (imperial or royal vs working class). Another was genetic modifications, or some kind of virus. A combination of those last two is close to the eventual Enterprise explanation.
True-Syllabub-6846@reddit
Why is Apple Pie getting so many down votes lol hes not saying anyone's wrong he seems like he just wants to know the reaction of people who got to see the change in real time
59Kia@reddit
There was some initial pushback IIRC, but not very much.
Felaguin@reddit
There were questions but Roddenberry's reply pretty much shut them up. Most people understood he had a larger budget for TMP and was doing the make-up properly.
CB_Chuckles@reddit
Was there? I don’t remember any. Just lots of excitement over the fact that they finally had the money to make it the way it should have been. I recall a few comments on the new look of the Klingons but mostly on the lines of them finally looking properly alien.
Jayfan34@reddit
People appreciated that an actual budget meant they could make the Klingons actual aliens. The Motion Picture was also the first time we heard them speak a language other than English which was cool.
Victory_Highway@reddit
We do not discuss it with outsiders.
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
Ha good one
axel_beer@reddit
thats true. came to say the same. glory to you and your comments. they surely are worthy of song and story!
Dont_Care_Meh@reddit
You keep looking for some sort of controversy or problems. There wasn't.
I was there: I grew up on TOS (reruns), was in my early teens when TNG premiered. This is how we felt.
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
And that is all I asked. Thank you
AdPhysical6481@reddit
Yes, mainly because I watched them in chronological order (except for Enterprise, which I watched last). It urked me a little bit, but not enough to really matter. I enjoyed the in-story explanation they ended up doing though.
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
Thank you
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Of course. We'd seen Klingons with the skull ridges in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture", Star Trek III: The Search for Spock", and "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home".
Not to mention everything we'd seen about TNG made a huge deal about a Klingon on the bridge.
AnnieGoldleaf@reddit
Honestly back then, we weren't looking to be offended when TMP redesigned the Klingons like we were when Disco did it, so we were quite comfortable with the new looks by the time Search for Spock really solidified everything.
IfICouldStay@reddit
I remember a LOT of build-up before TNG was released. There were photos of the characters and their backstories. So I knew going in who was who.
Cautious-Tailor97@reddit
The movie Klingons looked like Worf - Roddenberry’s idea was a background character who would show old enemies can become friends.
Later, it turned out Worf was a big deal and the only Klingon in Starfleet.
Independent-File-519@reddit
no since they had already been in the movies
Felaguin@reddit
We saw the Klingons with ridges in TMP and therecwas quite a bit of publicity so no surprise about having a Klingon on thevEnterprise.
bbbourb@reddit
Yes, because I watched The Motion Picture and The Search for Spock. The design change for Klingons actually first appeared in TMP.
Ok-Car9853@reddit
No because Klingons appeared this way in the Star Trek movies. So by the time TNG came along I knew by looking at him Worf was a Klingon.
SOTG_Duncan_Idaho@reddit
Klingons got their makeover on TMP many years before TNG
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
Yet how was the redesign accepted
Toddlez85@reddit
Bro, I mean this with all love from a fan of more than 35 years (I’m 40), it’s a TV show. That’s all. Not a historical documentary of the future. We accept changes in media because society, technology, and priorities change.
They had more money, realized they could do more so they did more. Full stop. There was no lore pill. People were happy to have Star Trek on TV after 20 years. Ok some people were. Some were furious about changes like today. Trekkies gonna Trekkie.
Iron_Bob@reddit
Four people have tried to tell you that a whole ass decade happened between TOS and the TOS movies. There was no reaction, people just went with it
Now are you going to accept this or continue to disagree with tbe people who are trying to answer your question?
applepiemakeshappy@reddit (OP)
Actually no has said how the redesign was acknowledged by the Trekkie crowd when it first happened they have just said movies changed shit so TNG wasn’t a shock. Ok TNG wasn’t shocking but to those watching the series in 1967 and those watching the first movie in 1979 how did they accept the change? Were there not any going, “ huh… Klingons? Really? What’s with the head?”
Mistervimes65@reddit
I was 14 in 1979. I watched the movie. Saw they had done prosthetics for the Klingons, said “cool” and then my friends and I talked about how cool the prosthetics were. That was the general reaction from fans.
Original_Scholar_272@reddit
Everything about The Motion Picture was a shock in 1979. It was cool. By 1987, everyone seemed to accept that that was how Klingons look. Is that a satisfactory answer?
CB_Chuckles@reddit
Wasn’t a surprise. As others have pointed out the TNG, like the title music were recycled from TMP.
BlueFeathered1@reddit
Because of the movies, yes. Even without those, I seem to recall a lot of previews for TNG. By the time I started watching when it premiered, I wasn't taken aback by him or anything.
Victory_Highway@reddit
Yeah, the promos for TNG even had a voiceover line “Klingon officer Worf”.
HellyOHaint@reddit
Can everyone calm down downvoting OP? Their question is totally understandable
Melodic-Supermarket@reddit
But their refusal to accept multiple answers isn’t.
Dont_Care_Meh@reddit
Yeah, that's it exactly. People keep telling OP everyone was fine, but that is apparently not an acceptable answer to match their preconceived bias of how people saw it, so it keeps getting re-asked in trying to get what they want.
I'll do my part: everyone liked it. It was like, ok, we finally get to see Klingons as they were meant to be seen, not as the TOS had to portray them due to limits in budget and prosthetics. It was cool, they were badass. And from that moment forward, THAT is what a Klingon was to us. When I'm watching an old TOS episode, and it has Klingons, my mind doesn't have problems, either. I'm more into it for what's happening, not what they look like.
Tradman86@reddit
There were three movies with head ridged Klingons before TNG premiered.
Js987@reddit
Yes, because we’d already seen the new Klingon makeup design in *four* of the films on explicitly Klingon characters , so it wasn’t a shock.
There was minimal pushback to the change *in the films* because like with the Enterprise refit it was a) evident it was due to having a better budget and b) was a clear visual improvement. There‘s always some unhappy people when there’s a change. (It’s also worth noting it’s directly not analogous to the Discovery changes to Klingons because the film changes were only preceded by a few seasons of ToS on a fairly low budget show over a decade earlier, not decades of visual appearances.)
MPFX3000@reddit
You’re talking about having gone from the Bronze Age to the Industrial in terms of television/costume production.
And the true answer is back then (when we saw TMP) people weren’t all whiny about canon - we were all “oh so that’s what Klingons are supposed to look like - coooooooool”
heirtoruin@reddit
I was 10 when TNG first aired. I had seen TOS on TV syndication before that.
When my friend first had me watch TNG with him, I just remember him telling me that the Klingons were now allies with the Federation. I didn't think about the change in appearance at all. He identified Worf to me immediately. I thought Worf looked tough.
I only saw the TOS movie after starting TNG.
Raterus_@reddit
Part of enjoying Trek is appreciating the story and not asking too many questions
Longjumping_Feed3270@reddit
Do yourself a favor and never watch Discovery.