Is Germany still seen as an economic powerhouse in your country?
Posted by LordHavertz@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 92 comments
Historically, Germany was always seen as the country of opportunities and a place to make money hence many Balkaners moved there traditionally.
Nowadays in 2025, German economy is stagnant and declining, even compared to its peers such as France or UK. Car industry is falling and its tech/AI industry is non-existent. Is Germany still seen as an economic powerhouse these days?
ceaizis@reddit
Why Europe CouldBe Economically Screwed While China Pulls Ahead
Europe’s demographic curve looks like a ski slope:
Fewer workers, more retirees.
Huge pension and healthcare burdens.
Shrinking labor force = lower output and lower innovation velocity.
China also has aging problems, but:
Its working-age population is still massive.
It built decades of industrial capacity and productivity gains before the demographic crunch hits fully.
Europe is basically trying to sprint with a backpack full of grandmas.
The EU is brilliant at consumer protection, but economically it’s like doing business inside a bureaucracy simulator:
Slow approval cycles
Overregulation in tech, AI, healthcare, energy
Fragmented markets despite the “single market” marketing
When the US innovates and China scales, Europe… writes a white paper
Regulation is great—until it’s your startup being strangled with compliance paperwork at 3 AM.
Why that matters:
Manufacturing becomes uncompetitive
Heavy industry moves to Asia or the US
Households pay more → less spending power
Companies shift production to where electricity doesn’t cost the GDP of a small country
China, meanwhile:
Huge investment in nuclear, solar, wind
Massive internal coal capacity
Cheaper energy → cheaper production → more exports
Europe complains about prices. China builds power plants.
China is no longer just “plastic toys and iPhone assembly.” It now dominates:
EVs
Batteries
Solar panels
Drones
Telecommunications
High-speed rail
AI scaling infrastructure
Europe has… luxury cars and wine. Nice, but not the backbone of 21st-century economic power.
Europe’s decisions require 27 countries to agree. That’s like trying to drive a car with 27 steering wheels.
China’s decisions require one Politburo meeting.
You can hate the political system, but economically the comparison is brutal:
China can build a new industry in 18 months
Europe needs three years just to conduct environmental assessments and democratic consultations
Democracy is invaluable — but it’s slow as hell.
Europe’s manufacturing share of GDP is shrinking. China’s is still the world’s largest by a huge margin.
If the 21st-century game is “who controls supply chains,” Europe is playing hide-and-seek while China is playing factory-Tetris on god mode.
China:
New ports
New railways
New megacities
New industrial hubs
New energy grids
Europe:
Argues about budget deficits
Cancels projects mid-construction
Fights over which language should be printed first on signs
One system builds. One system debates building.
Venture capital investment:
US: insane
China: huge
Europe: modest and risk-averse
European investors prefer “safe,” predictable business models. Chinese investors dump money into moonshots and scale until something catches fire (sometimes literally).
Innovation requires risk. Europe hates risk.
IMPORTANT REALITY CHECK (because truth > fear porn)
All the above arguments support the hypothesis you asked for — but reality is more complicated:
China has giant structural risks (real-estate crisis, debt, talent exodus, aging, geopolitical pressure).
Europe still has world-class education, rule of law, stable institutions, and high-value industries.
“Doom” is never inevitable, but stagnation? Very possible.
If you want, I can also build the counter-argument: “Why Europe is not doomed and China may collapse first.”
PrettyChillHotPepper@reddit
Thanks chatgpt
ceaizis@reddit
You're god damn right. It's cgpt. And it's right.
johndelopoulos@reddit
I wouldn't consider UK or France as Germany's peers. The former two are the two strongholds ot the traditional west, Germany is a more central European country with strong ties to eastern Europe, and yes, that is reflected on its economy as well (more strict and conservative i would say)
To answer your question, it has attracted a lot of Greeks in the past, almost ALL of them from Northern mainland, and that's not something "random": it has to do with the first paragraph, Germany has mainly been attractive to eastern Europeans and balkans People, and northern mainland Greeks are too Balkan for Greek standards.
For comparison, the rest of Greeks mainly emigrated to USA and Australia
elcapitano-obvious@reddit
Explain me the first paragraph, I don't get your point
TastyTestikel@reddit
It doesn't make sense. Historically and economically Germany is a western European country which back then included Austria which had a significant influence on Balkan and Eastern European countries. Central Europe is such an incredibly weird concept and makes no sense when looking at history. German politics and trade were Western focused till the Austrians got their sh*t kicked in in the 30 years war, after that Germany didn't exist so much and everybody did their own thing.
Deelije@reddit
even the worst germany will remain economically better than the best balkan country for the next 100 years.
Icy-Temperature377@reddit
So i opened Numbeo today, to compare random German city (henceforth DE) to Zagreb(ZG):
Price of rent, city center, 1 bedroom: DE: 700€ ZG: 760€
Price of m2 apartment, same as above: DE: 3820€ ZG: 4776€
Average monthly salary: DE: 2655€ ZG: 1660€
Yeah.. they are doing ok
No-Positive-8871@reddit
Comparing the capitol city of a country to a random German city makes little sense. You likely have better access to most public amenities in Zagreb compared to a random German city as well.
PavelKringa55@reddit
not really. Zagreb is turning into a toxic dump. Traffic is collapsing, prices of food are, for some reason about 30% higher than in Germany and generally nothing works.
bassta@reddit
Are you sure you’re in Zagreb? It sounds like Sofia tbh
stop_manjine@reddit
Sofia is much beter than Zagreb.
Been to both multiple times.
Chemical-Street6817@reddit
I am earning more than 3x of what is written as av Zagreb salary while paying 1100 for 2 rooms in Berlins hyped area, but I was kinda lucky to find this apartment tbh
Icy-Temperature377@reddit
Even if that city is as large as the capitol city, has better gdp per capita, and has better infrastructure?
I was not looking at Bumfuck, Nowhere but cities like Dresden, Nuremberg and Leibniz as an example.
No-Positive-8871@reddit
In general yes a capitol city attracts more financial liquidity, people, networks etc than any of the listed cities.
The income to expense ratio is obviously out of whack in Zagreb. Germany isn’t doing great though, adjusted for inflation income to expense ration has gotten worse since 2020 by something like 30% if I remember correctly. At this rate it’s going to even out with Zagreb faster than expected.
Icy-Temperature377@reddit
Problem is Zagreb is going same way.
I used to eat lunch at work for 4-5€ tops just a few years ago, I was happy with a 10€ sarma yesterday.
Same apartments going for 1700/m2 just 3 years ago are now 3000+.
I am a software engineer so I used to live like a king here and I completely understand the sentiment of average german person when they say their standard has fallen.
Because that is exactly what is happening here for people like me, I am still living well but compared to before, or if I look at how the average person is living, its not good.
Refugee_InThisWorld@reddit
Not everyone should live in capital cities. The only thing i like about socialism is that they try to set the same standard for even most remote places, yet, even then, people would sell soul to live in bigger cities or the capital.
archonpericles@reddit
Definitely. The strongest in Europe.
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
In case of Romania, Germany is the most important trade partner we have. Around 40 billion in trade annually. To everyone surprise, Romania export Cars to Germany .
But few know that the real powerhouse of german economy is actually smaller size enterprise.. Not VAG...
fredyicey@reddit
Cause Dacia is very cheap here and a Golf is like double/tripple the price of a dacia. German Car companys are going down the drain because of the government push for e mobility. And not only the companys like VW, Audi and Mercedes, also part manufacturers like Mahle are fucked.
EfficiencySmall4951@reddit
Very true, dacia is cheap, damaged components are also, obviously, cheaper to buy. Cheap car to get and maintain overall and it does its job. No surprise many choose to get one, and it's not only Germany
PavelKringa55@reddit
on one side, German companies refuse to make something in Dacia price range
on the other side, this push for EVs that most of the populace does not want is destroying German car companies
Environmental-Pea-97@reddit
I am Turkish and even your sorry backwater medieval towns look like economic powerhouses from here.
jackinthehoaxes@reddit
Germany has been and remains a major economic power, but the quality of life for the average German has been declining and no longer matches that of its neighboring countries. Several of my German friends have moved to other European nations, including countries in the Balkans, and they have little desire to return except to visit their parents during the holidays.
ConfusedAdmin53@reddit
WDYM "seen"? Germany is an economic powerhouse.
DefenestrationPraha@reddit
Czech here. I used to live next to Germany, now I live next to Poland. I speak both languages.
Germany is richer than Poland, but on a clear stagnation path. Everything takes an insane amount of bureaucracy there. Any project, even modest one, will provoke reaction of dozens of NGOs or ad-hoc organizations to stop it. Too many middle class people feel pessimistic about the future: the world will burn and we caused it.
Meanwhile, Poland is still poorer, but closing the gap, because the economy is vibrant there. The can-do mentality is strong in the air. The Poles are fucking driven to do things, improve their cities, build new corporations etc.
Even the Germans are noticing it and there has been some lukewarm debate in the German media lately "what are the Poles doing better there and could we possibly inspire ourselves?"
Czechia, as usual, sits somewhere between.
ConfusedAdmin53@reddit
Wish we had neighbors like that.
theschiffer@reddit
Τhat's something Greeks should say too...
DefenestrationPraha@reddit
Well, you have the sea :) And a nice one too.
ceaizis@reddit
Germany is going to dust. All Europe is. No ai, soon no car industry, no chips, no resources....
Doc_Bader@reddit
There are no european SOTA-models (Mistral is ok), but they're not needed as Open Source is also rising it's floor every month. AI datacenters are build all over the continent via EuroHPC JU.
No car industry is hyperbolic doomer bullshit, especially considering the rising sales all across Europe, the biggest problem is still oversea sales in US and China but with rising breadth of BEV models the sales rise again.
No chips - this was literally true 10 or 20 years ago as well when "Germany was a full powerhouse". Also it's stupid considering the fact that Europe just released the first european designed chips since decades (SiPEARL). Also there are two large chip facilities being build, important even if they're not TSMC-level.
No resources... ok? We never had them anyway. But compared to 20 years ago we have far more renewables which produce energy on this continent, so we import less. Situation is actually better than ever before.
zeclem_@reddit
i'd recommend just blocking this racist pos. dude doesnt even know asml, the company that the global chip industry is reliant upon.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
That doesn't contradict the "no chips" statement directly though since as you know asml don't sell chips
ceaizis@reddit
In order to survive u must produce. China and USA will overtake anything in its way.
Doc_Bader@reddit
You made a useless throwaway comment that doesn't adress anything in particular that I said.
Also your education about these topics seems to be build on europe-bad-look-at-bottle-cap-memes if I had to guess.
ceaizis@reddit
Trying to cope, my friend?
Doc_Bader@reddit
Yeah that cocky sentence will sure help to bring your non-existent argument across.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
not sure why people downvote you.
we cant even tax US companies properly, NVDA alone has a bigger marketcap as the nominal gdp of germany.
Europe has to much bureaucracy and too little innovation. Maybe the current global shift will bring positive change.
zeclem_@reddit
this is genuinely stupid. mistral is able to develop models that are competitive with openai, and they are european. and no chips? chip industry as a whole relies on asml, yet another european company. "soon no car industry" is a meme at best. even with all the problems they have been facing the headstart europe had is still too massive to be overtaken.
europe is doing fine. to claim otherwise is just cope.
ceaizis@reddit
We will see in 5 yrs my friend
zeclem_@reddit
yeah problem is we keep hearing that "5 years" for decades and yet europe is still managing fine. there is simply no reason to believe that europe will lose its economical powerhouse status anytime soon. like hell, china lost its second place in gdp to eu, and their declared numbers are often questioned by tons of academics.
ceaizis@reddit
Dude, maybe you get to visit big cities from china. I'm telling you, Istanbul won't look like that in the next 100 years.
zeclem_@reddit
economies arent defined by how many led lights you put on your buildings, they are measured by actual metrics. and in most of those metrics eu is ahead of china.
ceaizis@reddit
Because EU was ahead before. Now it's 2025. Soon 2026. Now china will surpass eu because eu it's a lazy pos full of migrants
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
There you go... It was itching you to say it...
zeclem_@reddit
problem with your argument is eu is still ahead and the difference between them is not shrinking in the slightest.
but yeah that last comment there is proof that you are a dumbass racist prick who doesnt know how anything works.
TwoFistsOneVi@reddit
dude, you're arguing with a person who has literally no clue about anything and his only argument is "we will see in 5 years"
zeclem_@reddit
and racism. cant forget that.
but yeah you are right, not worth anybodies time.
ConfusedAdmin53@reddit
Wir schaffen das.
Tony-Angelino@reddit
It's just another post on AskBalkans in the series "Germany is worse than South Sudan, why isn't everyone leaving?". Guys, of course you have the right to your own opinion and you have the right of free movement. Think that France or Netherlands are better? Move. Wanna go back to Balkans and try your luck back home? Go, have fun. Don't wanna move to Germany? Simply don't. People (especially from Balkans) usually have very strong convictions about issues like these and I don't know why they want some kind of emotional confirmation.
Classic-Exit4189@reddit
Theyve gone downhill. And no its not the immigrants fault. The war in ukraine is hitting europe and germany specifically very hard. Without cheap russian gas they have high energy costs , their factories can not remain competitive so they are deindustrializing.
potisqwertys@reddit
He means, does the barely finished highschool and have 0 skillset 30 year old thinks he will get paid 6000 euros if he moves to Germany or not.
vlatkovr@reddit
Dude Germany might be in a crisis. But the crisis is relative to what it was. And relative to USA and China. Are you comparing it to the Balkans lol.
Prestigious_Ask7892@reddit
in a decline, definitely not like before,
nordi44145@reddit
Germany is shit and you can live in bosnia better when you have your own house and normal work
Chemical-Street6817@reddit
Profile pic checks out
Most-Ad-8453@reddit
It is, but...
Chinese are slowly taking car industry in the world.
Honestly, after WW2 all of the countries that were involved in Axis power should still today be in economic repression because of control and punishment for creating such evil in world.
And all of countries involved in Allied powers should get economic boost.
Easy solution.
Starskeet@reddit
The Germans will be fine. They'd be better off if they wouldn't have murdered their Jewish citizens, but you won't bounce back so quickly after something like that.
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
It has been quite the joy witnessing the downfall of Germany
BosnianGeek@reddit
In periphery the downfall of Germany will be the economical downfall of Europe. Bosnia is 287 km away from the German border. Idk if this is something to cheer about.
Candid_Company_3289@reddit
I will also enjoy the well-deserved downfall of Europe.
BosnianGeek@reddit
With economic collapse, will follow major wars. Restarts are necessary for our greedy capitalist system. Maybe you want to hang yourself and just wait on the endday.
fredyicey@reddit
Tech & AI is non existent because of laws regarding data safety. The Guy who founded Lidl actually trys to make his hometown the Sillicon Valley of europe with huge Investments but it is at the very beginning.
And the IT sector is so ass because we are far behind on IT and the Internet in general and no company wants to pay normal wages for IT workers compared to foreign companys. They also think IT workers are massively overpaid and do nothing, so many IT workers got fired from many big company’s. And our internet is trash, many households for example only get 200k mbit here, my uncle from romania always laughs about out shitty internet which we have due to Helmut Kohl, chancellor at that time, took a bribe from a copper company and put it in copper instead of fiber cables.
Fun Fact: Germany is sort of as corrupted/„authoritarian“ as Balkan states, they just do a VERY good job on hiding it. You can‘t bribe an police officer, but you can bribe your local major. But not even if you rich, only if you have a company thats kinda big.
TwoFistsOneVi@reddit
It's a valid question, but
Excuse me? I'm sorry, OP, but this is pure ignorance.
Germany has 2 out of top 3 largest tech companies in Europe, SAP and Siemens. Honorable mention to Infineon, and perhaps Bosch (focus on engineering technology more than on IT)
Also, DeepL is the 2nd largest AI company in Europe, the only larger one being Mistral from France. DeepL's self-learning AI translator tool is the most used translator used by companies in the world.
Yes, their car industry currently experiences hardship due to incorrect market expectations, but it's still miles above the rest in Europe.
varzaguy@reddit
SAP and Siemens as the top “tech” companies is not something to brag about.
Siemens isn’t even a tech company, they are one of those mega conglomerates with a focus in many different things. My brother works for Siemens, on railroads.
TwoFistsOneVi@reddit
"My friends are black so I can't be racist" type of comment.
Siemens's industrial tech, health tech, smart infra and digital divisions generate 80% of Siemens's total revenue as a whole. The mobility division, in which your brother works if he even actually works there, comprises only 13% of the total revenue.
Saying that Siemens is not a tech company is all kinds of wrong.
And saying that "SAP and Siemens being top tech companies is not something to brag about" is absolutely idiotic.
As if having fucking Tesla as one of your top tech companies is something to brag about.
At the end of the day, there are two thing which matter the most - money and innovation.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
lmao why so offended ?
and his question is about perception and Germany lost its magic in that regard. Who wants even to move to Germanistan these days ? high skilled worker dont move there.
Icy-Temperature377@reddit
I mean perception or not, numbers are still on German side compared to any Balkan country, and by a long mile.
I get that people living in Germany are not feeling as rich as they used to, but they are still top 10 in almost everything.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
their median is lower as spains in terms of wealth, its unfair to measure germany with any balkan nation. (100.000 vs 196.000 or something)
Imo Germany is not doing good.
Icy-Temperature377@reddit
None of the west EU countries are "doing good".
At best, Spain had 0.8% growth, a far bigger unemployment rate than most of EU, far bigger debt to gdp ratio than Germany.
So I would say we are all not doing well, Russia, Ukraine and rest of non-EU included.
TwoFistsOneVi@reddit
Stating that the question is based on absolute ignorance, while also explaining why and immediately labeled as 'offended'... Dear god, the people on this sub smh.
If he wants to know the public perception of certain countries about Germany, then he should've just asked about the public perception. Not write stupid things like Germany "having no tech or AI".
If he is basing his question on incorrect information, then his questions is plain stupid.
fredyicey@reddit
no, greetings from germany
Similar_Dingo_1588@reddit
it is seen as a was destroyed by the Greens
Certain_Bag6363@reddit
Not at all.It is strugling for a few years now.Enourmous imigrantion,bad leardership.
Emirovskii@reddit
You have no clue what you are talking about dont you? Germany ticks all the boxes of what should be considered an economic powerhouse, like size of the economy (Germany overtook Japan at 3rd place), it has an extremely diverse economy (produces almost everything), it has a huge impact internationally (whole Europe basically depends on it), etc. Having some problems doesnt take away the status of a strong economy.
azaghal1502@reddit
German here, a few days ago someone asked on a german sub if germany is still in the top 10 in some statistics...
it's in the top 3 in some, top 5 in most and top 10 nearly everywhere.
A few years of bad luck and bad decisions won't change that.
Emirovskii@reddit
Of course, the problem is that people dont look at any facts, but base their superficial opinions by watch tiktoks or reels.
ceaizis@reddit
It will in 5 yrs
azaghal1502@reddit
maybe 50, even at a current rate the growing former eastern-block economies will still take decades to overtake us.
ceaizis@reddit
Dude eastern Europe is at its peak.
You can find some goose and few horses there. Nothing more.
TastyRancidLemons@reddit
Germany at its worst is still leagues and bounds stronger and more relevant than the vast majority of the world at their best. Only stronger Western Powers, and China, India, Korea and Japan can suprass Germany's potential. They are, and will remain, the de facto leaders of Europe whether we like it or not.
cosmicdicer@reddit
Yes it is still seen as a powerhouse cause it still is. It might be in its lows but still powers through
kiki885@reddit
Definitely not like 10 years ago.
OptimusTron222@reddit
Not any longer! I was also surprised that most German manufacturers are just selling Chinese made tools now(for example look at Bosch, they are closing all German factories and migrating to China). German cars are have lost their edge compared to other countries brands and German job market is so bad we don’t even try to get German clients in the software industry
dogiii_original@reddit
we have a saying in my country "we will sink before Germany goes under"
liftMeUp88@reddit
I used to love Germany but the last 10 years I started to dislike it more and more, bad politics, uncontrolled immigration high crime rate, super high taxes. I'm from Bulgaria and I hear similar opinions regarding Germany from people in Bulgaria.
I am fluent in German and have went numerous times to Germany, both holiday and business trips. I feel the same regarding Western Europe overall, I do travel a lot and see a decline in way of life and living standards. I have a lot of German friends and partners and they all speak bad of their politics and leadership.
BasedEmu@reddit
Yes, the epithet of wörk. But on arms with a social crisis and stagnant economic due to severe mistakes from frau Merkel, with energy and eu push for ev only, now that’s clear that their auto industry can’t compete with the chinese.
And ironically getting outgrown by the southerners.
sturzkampfbomber@reddit
no
peradbojkot@reddit
Well. Not anymore... Even some gastarbajters complain about financial struggling after 2022/23 inflation hike.
Kaamos_666@reddit
We know that the incomes are not so high there anymore. But they are still a developed and stable economy. Their stagnation is funny compared to our economic inabilities. But production costs being expensive in west is a threat for their economy of course. Although, I’m happy. Because their capitalism can’t conceal how it works at the first place: Exploitation of labour of people in overseas countries and also their natural resources.
saleomkd_@reddit
NetHistorical5113@reddit
Oh defienetly