Is being a lawyer fundamentally contrary to libertarian ideals/philosophy?
Posted by Keeping_Hope97@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 42 comments
I ask this as someone that, overall, would consider libertarianism to be the most desirable political and social system/philosophy, and as someone that is also in my final year of my law degree.
Recently I've been wondering about the interaction of these two things, because sometimes I feel that, at least in my country (a highly developed Western country), the level of legalism and sheer volume of legislation on all aspects of life is so overwhelming that it feels "wrong" for me to be preparing to actively take part in that system and make it my career. I spend hours each day studying and making notes on seemingly endless legislation that attempts to govern and order absolutely every facet of life both public and, increasingly, private, and it both exhausts me and dispirits me. I just don't like it. I don't like how seemingly with every passing year the government exerts more and more control over every part of human life and renders individual autonomy, freedom and choice practically non-existent outside of very strictly set parametres. I doubt even the Soviet Union legislated this much, and that's saying something.
I don't have a problem with laws or the rule of law (obviously not, as a law student) - I'm not an anarchist. I actually like and approve of much of the traditional common law and I feel it much better maintains a balance between liberty and law. Maybe that's one reason why contract law appeals to me so much, being based almost entirely on common law and mostly upholding the rights of individuals to contract on their own terms. It's just statute that is the problem, in my opinion. I feel that this is where individual freedoms are constantly being eroded, not at common law. This isn't really a shocking statement - statute is made by politicians whose entire job is to exert their own power and authority over people, rather than judges who mold and interpret common law merely on a reactive basis based on tradition and custom.
Anyway, I could probably ramble about this for a long time. But I'm curious what you guys think of this topic, and what your views on the matter of libertariasm and law-work are, as libertarians. Are any of you lawyers, and how do you believe that your job has influenced/been influenced by your libertarian views?
FernadoPoo@reddit
there are too many laws, not lawyers
BringBackUsenet@reddit
That's the point actually. More laws = more opportunities for shysters.
Lanky_Barnacle_1749@reddit
Not sure why this is downvoted, it is a fact. America is a county created by and run by lawyers. Their first priority is to the court and the law over any client or “justice”.
buchenrad@reddit
And the more laws you have, the greater need there is for experts to assist the common man when he may run afoul of those laws. The lawyer helps us find new and exciting ways to bypass all the authoritarian nonsense that governments keep trying to impose upon us.
Lawyers have a certain reputation, and they may or may not deserve it, but the service they provide is critical for a free society. Oppressive regimes try to keep their subjects ignorant, especially about the law itself. Lawyers help us mitigate that ignorance.
Likestoreadcomments@reddit
Max the Axe, for example, is a lawyer and principled libertarian. So yes.
Loominardy@reddit
As long as you aren’t representing clients pushing for enforcement of laws not in alignment with natural law then you’re good
GothicHeap@reddit
Who would defend people's liberties in court if not lawyers?
Anen-o-me@reddit
No it's not. Although I hate the current legal system. But the principles of law and good jurisprudence are good and timeless and we will need lawyers in a future free society.
Postgames@reddit
Lawyers are essential to the process of justice.
I cannot say I am an expert in law or the field of law in any sorts but I hope there is some way that you can focus on helping those impacted by government overreach.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
One of my classes this semester - my final core subject - is administrative law which, despite being almost entirely statute-based, revolves entirely around holding the government accountable. I really like this class and it's a nice change from having spent years just studying about how to keep private interests in check - finally there's some balance. Though this field of law tends to be more high-level (e.g., higher courts) but I suppose it has to start at a local level in most cases.
SpiritAnimalLeroy@reddit
Unfortunately, here in the States anyway, administrative law has become a key means of eroding the separation of powers in which Congress has the exclusive power to write and pass laws.
thelanoyo@reddit
In the US there's the institute for justice. They specifically handle cases of people's rights being trampled in an egregious way, and they work for free to the client and are funded mostly by donations.
madkow990@reddit
No
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
No its not
elijahoun@reddit
Depends on what type of lawyer you are. As a criminal defense attorney, I do nothing but argue against the government every day—preventing them from infringing on my clients' rights. Hard to think of a more libertarian job than that.
Der_Blaue_Engel@reddit
Same. I love being a public defender. I get paid by the government to think up ways to obstruct the government.
rabell3@reddit
IANAL, but have been considering a return to school for a JD. My interest is that, if I want better laws or better interpretations in courts, it must be done by those of us that care about liberty. Think of it as, be the change you want to see in the world.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
That's true. Too often I read law journals written by academics who constantly argue for more government/legislative involvement in the law, to the detriment of the common law (which is the only thing maintaining some semblance of freedom from over-legislating). Legal academics seem, almost without exception, to be purely big-government and interventionist and I don't like that.
ThatOtherGuyTPM@reddit
It’s not overly surprising that most people who work inside of systems support the existence of those systems. If the system were purely individualized contracts and that’s what their experiences are based on, you’d probably see significantly more lawyers who support that system. For better or for worse, that’s not the system that exists right now, basically anywhere, and especially anywhere capable of supporting good law schools.
CNM2495@reddit
No. You could help people not get raped by regulation.
Pirat@reddit
Since libertarians are big into contractual obligations, I would think lawyers would be necessary. Perhaps a better term would be the the British word Counselors.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
That's true. I'd really like to work in contract law - it was one of my best subjects and aligns best with my view of what is important and worthwhile.
aliph@reddit
I'm a transactional lawyer. I facilitate deals and therefore market liquidity. Nothing more libertarian than helping two parties freely transact and enforce their negotiated property rights.
Now are the laws that I advise on fair or just? Some are, some aren't, but that's on politicians and lawmakers. It's been my experience we as lawyers often see why laws are dumb and don't make sense. We could probably do more to make the laws better but that's a laziness issue not the idea of a lawyer being contrary to libertarian ideals.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
That's a good point. And it's great to hear from a lawyer!
And you're right that lawyers are not making or enforcing any laws, merely assisting people in navigating them. A few of my classmates seem to have the idea that as a lawyer they'll become some sort of activist/reformer, which I find somewhat misguided.
Personally speaking I am very interested in contract law, both because I was good at it while studying it (among my best subjects) and it aligns most closely with what I view as important in society. Generally anything commercial-related I would have no problem working in (except the regulators, obviously).
DraciosV@reddit
Even Friedman argued that governmemts are required to provided national defense, enforce contracts and to protect people from crime. Lawyers are needed for the middle of those.
Should a Libertarian be a politician? In my eyes, yeah. We need politicians in the first place to make laws that protect private property, so on and so forth.
Should a Libertarian be a lawyer? Yeah. In my eyes, you're playing a necessary role in the functioning of the country and not really playing a part of government bloat. A Libertarian society is gonna need lawyers.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
That's a good point. I would identify with Friedman's view of things, at least so far in what he argues is necessary even in a libertarian society.
While I do want to be a lawyer, I would absolutely refuse on principle to be a lawyer for any field of law that assists the government in assering more centralised control over society (e.g., taxation, prosecution, environmental/mining). My ideal field would be contract law, which I both enjoyed, agreed with wholeheartedly, and was good at studying.
SymphonicRock@reddit
It depends on what kind you are I’d imagine. Aren’t there lawyers dedicated to protecting private property, like IP lawyers?
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
Yes, the type of law I'd like to go into would be those that protect private property rights such as contract law, IP law and property law. Contract law in particular was something I liked and was good at when studying.
SymphonicRock@reddit
Very cool.
There seems to be people of the anarchist variety on this sub who probably think all disputes should be settled in a street fight. But having a formal framework to protect people is good, so (some) lawyers are good.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
I am very strongly opposed to anarchism and, I know this is probably a very controversial opinion on here, but I am so opposed to it that I would prefer an authoritarian state over anarchy, if solely to ensure the general safety of the community.
While I have an intense dislike of legislative law (that scourge known as "civil" law), I have a great admiration for common law and the traditions and customs that the British have passed on to common law nations. In my view it's the only legal system that can be reconciled with libertarianism except for perhaps customary law, but that's not realistically going to emerge in developed Western countries. But the common law seems to strike a good balance between maintaining a reasonable rule of law while being hands-off and purely reactive, never imposing itself beyond merely resolving a dispute. And most importantly it keeps the politicians and their authoritarian ways out of it.
BringBackUsenet@reddit
"IP" is not property. It's legalized racketeering but unfortunately IP lawyers are needed if for no other reasont than to protect ones own IP before someone else takes it to shut them out.
Beginning-Town-7609@reddit
I’ll keep a simple response by replying that being a lawyer is NOT fundamentally contrary to libertarian ideals and philosophy. As you know, the law is about rights, advocacy and adversarial relationships in practicing that advocacy.
BringBackUsenet@reddit
The system is set up so that shysters are a necessary evil. Most politicians start out as lawyers so go figure!
skeletus@reddit
If we had a libertarian utopia where the laws are simple, would we still need lawyers?
BringBackUsenet@reddit
Probably not but there might still be a need for people to make out contracts, and it helps to have someone that knows all the procedural things.
skeletus@reddit
Arbitration? Escrow?
alterego200@reddit
Not contradictory at all.
A. Libertarianism = ancap = ideal
B. Republic with common law court system = reality
We can't get from B to A without small and large improvements, and legal wins can help that process.
As a lawyer, you can remind juries (in a very subtle way) that juries are not required to even vote along with the law if they consider it to be unjust.
If you want to make a difference politically, try to become a judge for the Supreme Court or similar.
libcon2025@reddit
Lawyers are officers of the court i.e. government bureaucrats legitimizing the system with their participation. It is generally not going to be a happy place for a libertarian but having you on the inside is probably a good thing assuming you can do your job and still score a couple of points for the good guys.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
I wouldn't group all of them as being bureaucrats, though. Definitely the ones employed directly by the government are, but ones in a private firm that is specifically focused on private/individual rights (e.g., contract, IP, property) are very different in nature.
Shiroiken@reddit
It's like working for the government. As a municipal worker, I use my position to advance limited government as much as possible. If libertarians refused to work for the government, then it would be filled only with authoritarians who would grow the government. If there were no libertarian lawyers, then we'd have only authoritarian ones.
Keeping_Hope97@reddit (OP)
That's a good point and I hadn't considered it. Essentially the idea of 'retreatism' - refusing to take part in something entirely because some parts of it are bad, but in doing so that ensures it will become entirely overrun.
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