Old Fart's advice to Junior Programmers.

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Alarming_Strike6463@reddit

I love programming. Hated every single minute I spent working as a developer for 20 years. Now I just deliver packages on a small truck, making minimum salary and never have been happier in my life.

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I am not a programmer, but I would really like to learn to program, I like computing and the few times that I have interacted with programming code I found it very interesting. In your comment I see that you also like programming but I am surprised that after working for 20 years as a programmer, you would not have been happy. Tell me what is the worst thing about that programming career? What is bad about working as a programmer?

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Alarming_Strike6463@reddit

Basically what everyone says: don’t make your hobbies your job. Programming is cool and has thousands of good applications to make the world better. If you want me to be honest, what ruined for me was office politics, managers and agile, but I guess every job involving people will be like that.

The last straw was AI and how devaluated the software engineers are nowadays.

Still I will always code and have little side projects.

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mughinn@reddit

In 2023 I was comparing my salary with a junior colleage a he had a higher one. I asked my boss and he told me (god bless him) that the company had me marked as "low chance of leaving" because I had been there for more than 5 years, and because I was loyal I had the privilege of a lower salary

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Cool_Ad1404@reddit

Hello there, young fart here. I can confirm that the industry is messed up. I personally passed the full Google coding interview process for an L3 position. I even outperformed the interviewers in terms of time-complexity and space-complexity optimizations.

After the final interviews, I was approved by the hiring committee in a single working day( the standard time is 2-3 weeks) . The very next working day, I had my team-matching call(the standard time till you get a team matching is 1-2 months if even that) .The manager told me directly that he wanted me on his team, so everything looked solid and confirmed my expectation that my results were exceptional. I wish i could share the phone call recordings and the emails for proof but i am afraid that i am at risk of beeing sued.

Then they asked me for my compensation expectations. Since I had outperformed even L5 and L6 interviewers during the interviews, I thought it was reasonable to ask for an offer slightly above the standard band, assuming they could negotiate if needed.

But after I provided my number, suddenly they claimed there was a “red flag” in my code — something that had never been mentioned before, something that contradicted everything they had told me up to that point. Before discussing compensation, everything was positive and aligned; afterward, everything flipped.

This whole experience makes it feel like working in the programming field just isn’t worth it anymore. People simply aren’t valued at their real worth.

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gzk@reddit

As a middleish aged fart I largely agree, but I would add a couple of things:

While you absolutely do not owe a company loyalty, when you encounter good people, and you will, give them loyalty, as people, independent of their role in a company
If you aren't naturally learning valuable skills in your role, find a way to wedge them into your role. Get your work done but set aside time on the clock to build things that develop you as a professional as well as help the company. This sets you up to either move up within the company, or move on, when you're done.

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ruat_caelum@reddit

I'd add to this of NEVER SHARE YOUR SECRETS. If I have a method of getting 8 hours of work done in 3. NEVER talk about it. Ever. And never do it in less than 8 hours.

I've taken a personal laptop and personal wifi hot spot into work, done my work on an excel file there, exported, USB, and then over to the work system. Just so there is no record with IT on my "Super excel" file with all my macros and automation.

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Pleasant-Device8319@reddit

Yep this applies to basically every job

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jeffrey_f@reddit

Then you only post the raw values? Nice.

Reason: once you work it on a company computer, the company owns it

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ZelphirKalt@reddit

Your "reason" is dubious, because: You do your work on employer's time, then employer owns your work, whether it is on your private device or your company computer makes no difference. They don't pay you to do things on the company computer, they pay you for time or work done regardless on where you did the work.

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jeffrey_f@reddit

If it came time to prove IP ownership, the one with the most money and/or best lawyer (goes back to most money) would likely win.

However, I believe the fight/discussion of who owns the IP is being relaxed since more and more poeple are working for multiple clients.

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glempus@reddit

In the US especially, employer rights to employee intellectual property are insane. In some cases doesn't even matter if it's during work hours. Good article on how that developed: https://physicstoday.aip.org/features/who-owns-a-scientists-mind

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Flashy_Air_5727@reddit

Great advice

Overestimating my work pace was the best thing I did in my career. Especially if you have slow coworkers. Don't go out of your way to "prove" that you can work faster or more efficiently. Match their pace because thats all you're getting paid for

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optimally_slow@reddit

Also, join forces with other clock watchers. Shooting yourself in the foot if you think you can do it alone.

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motxch@reddit

I have no idea what I’m doing and I’m 25 but imma figure it out

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deefstes@reddit

I'm an old fart. This is bullshit. It is possible to derive fulfillment from your job as a software engineer, to put in some extra effort on occasion, and to enjoy the satisfaction of seeing that extra effort pay off.

My advice for juniors would be, don't allow the company to take more from you than you are willing to give, because they will. You determine your boundaries.

But you get bitter old farts and you get motivated old farts. Choose who you want to become and take advice from those who embody that.

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hctiwte@reddit

This type of blanket advice ignores nuance that must be applied to the real world

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Objective_Active_497@reddit

In those "old day" the management was made of people who spent decades at the company, nowadays you have management that came "yesterday" and probably do not plan to stay for more than a few years. Those people treat others the same way, as if everyone is there for a few years.

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Dependent-Dealer-319@reddit

In every organization, there's the value producers and the parasites. The parasites have to constantly justify their existence and subjugate the value producers. The parasites have bullshit grandiose job titles like "chief-bullshit-officer" or "project manager" or "Director-of-bullshit-initative". Their defining characteristic is that their work cannot be directly attributed to value creation, but rather as "support" activities to "keep projects on track" or "improve operational efficiency". These people are just parasites, who create problems for everyone else to give themselves a reason for existing.

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AffectionateWeek8536@reddit

Thank you old fart. Advice taken.

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Intelligent_Part101@reddit

I don't know what glorious old days OP is talking about. My entire career, IT has been a scramble to continually update yourself, work until the problem is fixed, and hopefully remain employed. Still had to change jobs even doing all that.

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avinash240@reddit

He's probably talking about the 90s and early to mid 2000s. I do miss those days myself.

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SnotRocketeer70@reddit

Initech

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awitod@reddit

The early 2000’s were the dotcom bust and Y2K hangover… not good times at all

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avinash240@reddit

I'm primarily talking about it from the point of view of what computers and software meant. I think the OP is as well with statements like "technical innovations we knew were important."

With large scale company consolidation, buy outs and leadership takeover by finance and strategic business folks the "art" and problem solving of developing software has become a very distant 4th in priority.

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awitod@reddit

I confess that I forgot what this thread is about. Work life balance is important and you have to take care of yourself, but one way to do that is to master your craft and work for yourself as much as possible which I have done for the majority of my career.

Putting yourself in a position to be able to do that necessarily involves working your ass off at times.

If you are an employee and are blessed with work that can get you in front of the curve, you should realize the opportunity in front of you and take advantage of it.

You can lose a job but nobody can take your skills.

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avinash240@reddit

Agreed

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awitod@reddit

In my 30+ year career and my time as an enthusiastic youth I have never been more interested or had as much fun as I am now.

All software is legacy in the face of our new abilities to handle language, vision and audio.

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avinash240@reddit

I was doing NLP way back in the early 2010s, I think the generative Ai situation is a little overblown. Transformer architecture is fairly new and definitely allows for some very cool "aha" moments. I'd say the "this is cool" moment hasn't change for me in my 30+ years. I usually find something interesting to keep me engaged from a tech point of view.

However, that still doesn't change the current feeling I have that it's not being used for anything that will truly make people's lives better. The people driving the ship have a completely different mindset.

When they had to compete they had to convince users to use their product. So the product had to actually deliver some real value for the customers. Now, not so much.

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rkozik89@reddit

Was 2014 to 2020 really that bad for people? Most people I knew including myself had a great time during those years. You just had to strategize knowing it would easier to trade companies for a promotion than to get one internally.

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avinash240@reddit

I'm talking about it primarily from the point of view of what computers and software meant.

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vu47@reddit

If you're in software development, programming better also be your hobby, because you're often expected to maintain your skills (and the tech is constantly changing as we all know) and you're not often given time or paid to engage in training. If the company switches from Java 8 to Java 21, you're expected to know Java 21 and have learned it in your spare time.

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no_regerts_bob@reddit

Man I learned java in the corporate world during the late 90s-early 2000s and then Google decided to use Java for Android so hell yeah, I just coasted on that for another decade writing mobile apps.

It's gone now, but there was a nice long stretch of time where being good at java meant $$$

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

An important part of what I'm saying is the world has changed...

By some accounts the AI stock market hype bubble is 17x bigger than the dotcom https://edition.cnn.com/2025/10/18/business/ai-bubble-analyst-nightcap

They have learnt a thing or two since the dotcom.... and that's to insist on getting ROI sooner.

Where's that going to come from? Slashing salary budgets and claiming AI is doing the work.

I personally believe AI will be a nifty productivity assist and their dreams of dark offices are pure hype..

...but while they are working out that they've failed... job security isn't going to come from your company.

It's going to come from having / making options.

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CryptoEmpathy7@reddit

That doesn't like it's worth it, eh?

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catholicsluts@reddit

You failed to mention when your beginning was tho

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tandem_kayak@reddit

I would agree, but don't worry about selling things in a side hustle. The side hustle concept burnt out my favorite hobbies. Just find something to do that energizes you and makes you happy. Not all time spent needs to make money. Let your main gig make money, spend the rest of your time enjoying life.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

It's more about that insatiable itch we programmers have to solve a puzzle, stretch the tech, learn a new thing....

Don't scratch it after hours on work related shit.

Scratch it for yourself.

If you have a fun hobby, you're right, don't try make money out of it, just have fun.

If you're getting the itch to work on fun / engaging / motivating tech and choose to work on work related shit... don't justify it to yourself as "getting ahead".

You aren't, you're getting behind.

You're honing skills only your current employer wants, and your current employers bean counters don't understand or value.

If you want to "get ahead", work on a side hustle, not on "work".

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modenv@reddit

Did AI actually have a big impact on this though? There were tons of shitty companies, before AI, who had developers working 14 hour days because they enjoyed the project, yet they would never reward them for it.
And there are still good companies, even if only a few, who haven't over-employed engineers, and who realize that AI is a far stretch from replacing even one of their devs.

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AutoPanda1096@reddit

Sure. I've been setting up my home network and tinkering for fun. Just been setting up vlans for IOT segregation etc.

There's always something to do.

On the other hand ive always been very aware how frighteningly fast the kids are growing up.

Playing pirates with my eight year old gets tiring after the first hour but I push on for the next 4. No itches getting scratched for me.

I think the problem with telling people how to live is that what works for you, isn't going to work for everyone.

I love coding and getting into the zone but can easily be stimulated in many other ways.

Some of us even enjoy being social!

Retirement will to be filled with earning/learning/play. The ratio is not yet decided.

A colleague at work retired but we have more work than we can do. He's now on a year long contract to pick up issues ad-hoc on a decent day rate.

That sounds bloody perfect to me!!

He wanted something to do but without the same pressure/commitment.

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800Volts@reddit

Honestly, the thing that energizes me is the idea that I'll be able at least have control over my own income. I don't need to make millions, I just need to cover my bills with a little bit of savings and not have my livelihood be controlled by the whims of someone who would put 1000 families into tail spin just to add a few dollars to their multi million dollar bonuses

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tandem_kayak@reddit

Make it happen! That sounds awesome 👍

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rkozik89@reddit

The thing most don’t get about side hustles is it easier to sell a good than a service. Making a SaaS, that’s likely to fail, but drop ship bootleg wall art you made for a popular video game? That’s easy money.

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OminOus_PancakeS@reddit

Out of curiosity, do the IP owners not come after the people who turn their IP into sellable wall art?

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800Volts@reddit

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Live streaming on twitch made things a little messy

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dovvv@reddit

This only works if your main gig pays enough for you live comfortably

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tandem_kayak@reddit

This is true! But if you are programing for a living, you should be making good money. At least that has been true in the past. Who knows what the future holds.

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topdownAC@reddit

Wow actually an amazing advice. It’s true, working harder for someone else maybe lets your boss give you “better tasks” or “more responsibility”. But when time comes - you’d get a mediocre raise, unless you’re like the top 1% of the company. And if you get lucky enough - you’d can become a manager and work MORE hours. This is the death cycle of programmers, the only way to get out of the cycle is to make your own money and be free. It’s of course, one of the most difficult things to do, but anyone who becomes a developer, in my opinion, can get there.

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AYNRAND420@reddit

I don't know how old OP is but I am perhaps older and I really don't like their advice. Following it will lead to bad habits and a tanked career.

Obviously you should not work extra hours for free - that would be moronic - but the hours you do spend at work should be sweaty hours where you use every bit of your brainpower and every tool at your disposal to be as efficient as possible. If you feel like your workplace doesn't deserve your talent, find another workplace. If you feel like no workplace deserves your talent, perhaps find another career path.

Anyway... my reasoning:

Even if you believe that your employer might drop you on a whim, your employer isn't the only person you are coding for. The guy who is doing your code reviews is going to get promoted or end up at another job, and they're going to remember how easy your code made their job, and pull you up too. This kind of thing happens all the time. Everyone in your workplace should see (1) how pleasant and fun you are to work with (2) how proficient you are at your craft and (3) how much you care about the codebase. When the ship is sinking, you want to know people that want you in their lifeboat.

You are also coding for yourself. By definition, when you are at work, you are doing things you don't want to do, or things that it didn't occur to you to do. Doing these things well makes you more well-rounded, and more confident with unfamiliar areas, tools and practices. You'll also get into a flow state where days pass fast, and will avoid the anxiety of having to account for your time after sitting on your ass all week.

And the most controversial for last: OP is just not correct about the idea that employers will gleefully fire you for nothing. It just doesn't make sense. They want efficient capable workers. These workers are hard to find and expensive to train.

If you have an experience like that of OP, there's more to it. Perhaps you are in a toxic workplace, or perhaps if every workplace is like this then you have some introspection to do about how you select jobs, or how you conduct yourself at work.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

but the hours you do spend at work should be sweaty hours where you use every bit of your brainpower and every tool at your disposal to be as efficient as possible.

Wait? What? I didn't say you shouldn't do that!

OP is just not correct about the idea that employers will gleefully fire you for nothing. It just doesn't make sense. They want efficient capable workers. These workers are hard to find and expensive to train.

Sure.

The problem is unless you have good technical management, the average MBA doesn't know a efficient capable programmer from a bad one that is piling up technical debt.

If the balance sheet says short term profit from cutting staff, the sword goes swinging pretty much at random.

The only guide the guy swinging the sword has is which are which programmers met his made up deadlines.

The bean counter doesn't know, or understand which skeletons were stuffed into closet to meet that deadline and he is usually planning on jumping ships before they emerge anyway!

My main point is my past (and your past) is not an entry level programmers future.

We're at the start of AI hype bubble dollarwise 17x bigger than the dotcom one.

The only plan on the table to monetize those trillions of dollars of investment is to slash the salary budgets by replacing with AI.

It's not going to work in the long term.... but for a trillion dollars they're going to be trying damn hard.

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AYNRAND420@reddit

Apologies, I appear to have misunderstood what the term "clock watcher" means. If you're just referring to not working extra hours for no compensation, but still working hard to hone yourself while actually on the clock, then I think I don't actually disagree with your post in general.

I definitely do think that there are workplaces that value and invest in their employees. You appear to have had a sample of bad workplaces, and I have had a sample of good workplaces. So the truth is likely somewhere in-between.

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dariusbiggs@reddit

You don't need a side hustle, but everything else, yeah.

You work to live, you don't live to work. Family, friends, and health come before the job.

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NoetherNeerdose@reddit

My parents are telling me to take up a government engineering job. I was very sceptical at first because government technologies usually operate on a temporal offset compared to whatever the current high-tech landscape is. However, after seeing four or five of my cousins lose their jobs within a month, including two from elite institutes with a very intuitive understanding of their work, I am now leaning toward the path my parents suggested.

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raymond_reddington77@reddit

I refuse to let my family suffer for the sake of a company. My family comes first.

Of course there are jobs that are very important to society that require much dedication. And more power to them that have those jobs. May your family have mercy and compassion on you. But those are the minority.

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Roanoketrees@reddit

Please listen to him from another old fart. Its gospel.

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Dashing_McHandsome@reddit

Middle aged fart here. This is completely accurate. When I was younger I would spend hours and hours during nights and weekends to get stuff done. I consistently had stellar reviews, and you know what? I got the same 2 percent raise as everyone else. Now I work far less and still get the same compensation. It really doesn't get you anywhere.

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BogdanPradatu@reddit

Young fart here, I confirm, it's accurate. The less you work, the higher up you end, it's called the Dilbert principle.

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TimeSalvager@reddit

Wet fart checking in.

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HealyUnit@reddit

Gold fart, standing by

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DarkSteering@reddit

Lock ass cheeks in attack position

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ambitiouschampion10@reddit

Unemployed fart checking in, Thank You

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BogdanPradatu@reddit

How's the view from the top, king?

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z_dogwatch@reddit

Lieutenant Shart reporting for doodie.

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throwaway727437@reddit

Halfway-middle-to-senior-age fart here, and I’ve found that it is really about the people who manage you at a company that will get you more $ if deserved. Close to top level directors. I don’t remember what year but I was called by my mgr and his director for a yearly salary appraisal and was stunned when I got another $30k in regular pay/yr and a pretty decent bonus (maybe 10-15k?) that time, and I just stared at them with my jaw open. I finally said thank you over and over; they told me what they wanted to see; all was great for a year. Then both of them left within 6 months of each other, I got transferred to a team where no one seemed pleased with me for 2 years but couldn’t point to something I’d screwed up and show me anything, so I complained, they fired me.

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AdjectiveNoun581@reddit

For the first 5 or so years of my career, I worked as hard as I could and my salary/job title never moved. I looked at my friends and asked myself, which one of these guys is most successful? It was the dipshit who never contributed anything of value to anything we did, told other peoples' stories as if they'd happened to him, but who was always smiling and laughing and giving people nicknames like "Tex" and "Slick." I decided to just act like him and focus on being as social as possible since spreadsheets showing my team-topping productivity didn't do jack shit. I haven't done real work in 10 years but I've been promoted so far that I'm not even remotely qualified for my position. As far as I'm concerned, my sole job responsibility is to make the VPs laugh. I've watched 3 different people crash and burn from complaining about my incompetence because all it does is draw leadership's scrutiny. I can remember watching the Frank Grimes episode of the Simpsons as a kid and I never really thought about it much until it became my actual lived experience. Don't EVER work hard at anything but kissing ass. It's the only thing that matters.

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BogdanPradatu@reddit

So you're basically a jester :))

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ImNotAWhaleBiologist@reddit

Great job, Adj!

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Egren@reddit

So if I stop working completely, will I become a billionaire?

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Guitarzero123@reddit

Rich in filthy experiences.

Have you ever fought a meth head and a stray dog for half a rotten bagel only to have it stolen away by a seagull? Luckily I haven't, but I can imagine it.

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Egren@reddit

Close enough! Screw you Rick, I quit.

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jcb088@reddit

Actually, just got transferred from marketing to IT, I’m a web dev, for an art college.

The transfer came from a lot of conversations about how I would like to do more for the college (not more work, but work of greater impact), basically every department operates in little silos and we have a lot of systems that overlap each other, and we could save money and run things more cohesively if we had better Meta thinking about how and what software we use.

The head of IT felt the same way. So we made the shift, created a new position, redefined my old one, I just hired my replacement actually.

I’ve been in IT for about four months now, and it’s such a strange spot to be in, because you organization still does things exactly in the way that were trying to get out of doing.

I mentioned this to you because my job is the same spirit/sentiment you guys are sharing, but it feels like my job itself is fighting back against the idea of me working more because of the fact that they keep pushing me into not doing as much.

So I get two choices:

Fight them for their benefit, or coast and let them set the pace (hint: slow). It’s the first time in my life that I feel like I’m incentivized specifically to not go above and beyond.

It’s a very bizarre dynamic.

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DragonflyOnly7146@reddit

After I finished Uni I joined a commercial real estate company as a researcher. Before that I finished an internship that pretty much taught me to automate every boring task I can. It was especially simple, since I started using LLMs for quick niche task tools development.

My boss hates it, and it is so weird that I'm pretty much doing 2x as much work as my predecessor, for lower wage, but I don't struggle with the bullshit parts of the tasks so it is viewed as if I was slacking off or cheating or something? It is insanely bizzare to see how doing things inneficiently is seen as more worthy...

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aphantasus@reddit

I second that, went through that same bullshit. But I knew that this is stupid while doing that, I tried to not doing at much, sometimes such "professional" behavior is just conditioning you received while growing up.

So for some, they will hit themselves, while knowing that it's stupid.

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Substantial_Mark5269@reddit

Agreed.

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RecordingPure1785@reddit

I’m lucky I learned this lesson before switching to software development. I love programming; it’s the most meaningful (to me) work that I’ve ever done. But if it had been my first, or even second, job out of university it might be one of the things I hope I never have to do again.

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BullzeyeGranny@reddit

Yeah I must say I'm in the same boat. I used to be in construction. Worked myself to the bone in that industry. Changed to software to have a more flexible career and be able to work from anywhere.

If I started out in software I'm almost guaranteed I would have burnt myself out by now.

But I came into this work knowing how to negotiate my way up with the business and know how to ask for what I want. In 3 years I could work myself up to senior with only working enough overtime to count on my 2 hands, I knew how to spot important things to focus on and make sure I follow good patterns and conventions due to my previous work experience. Don't work hard. Work smart.

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v0gue_@reddit

Another old fart giving tangential advice:

When layoffs are plentiful and eminent, no amount of dick sucking is going to help you. No amount of throwing people under the bus in attempts to show superiority, or working overtime on the weekends, or teams messages at 10pm, or cunty little dick sucking messages are going to help you. 99% of the time, the decisions are made from people above anyone you interact with, and they don't see any of your efforts or lackthereof. So don't be a schmuck, because what happens is nobody on your late team is going to be in your court when it comes to needing references on your next job.

So yeah, I second OPs old fart advice. Be good to yourself, be good to others, and have some self respect.

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LickMyTicker@reddit

Don't do what I did in an era where I was relevant, do what I say in an era I'm not.

I'm actually not too much of a fan of these types of passed on downtrodden pessimist wisdoms. Most people did what they did because they were inspired, and now that they aren't, they want those around them to be equally uninspired.

I say it's best to do what you can to make yourself marketable in a market that doesn't make you feel like you want to die. So if you have the stomach for it, push as much as you can.

The doom and gloom in software development right now is at an all time high, worse than what the AI speculative bubble deserves.

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ZestyRS@reddit

Be Clock watchers, but also spend your extra time on you, not your company. Build you and your resume because you never know when you’re gonna want to jump ship

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dudeman618@reddit

I love your message. Also, reminder to everyone to take your lunch break and take your PTO days.

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ZelphirKalt@reddit

Yep, can confirm this. Been 1 of 2 engineers of a startup at founding time and built up the whole platform and everything for 7y. You think they would show me any respect? Ahahahah! Good joke!

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flexsealswift@reddit

Dang

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p1-o2@reddit

Yep, never making that mistake again.

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aburnerds@reddit

This guy speaks the truth. The most precious thing you have in life is your time and that corporation will use you up and spit you out. They are loyal to you right up until the moment that they aren’t and then they will discard you like a piece of trash.

I guess the only caveat I would say to your words would be if you happen to be working for some company in which the product is rock solid and you get offered shares which could be lucrative then maybe that’s a fair trade-off for your time. If you’re just getting paid a regular wage 100% agree with OP

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rabaraba@reddit

Please don’t listen to him. If you’re a technical guy in a technical role, you will be valuable anywhere. Not light technical, but deep technical.

And the only way you get there is not by clocking off exactly on time.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

Get deep technical by doing your job and doing it well.

Working after hours on work stuff, you get slightly deeper technical, but only in the tech that company uses.

Which is probably weird and outdated "for reasons".

And is probably not used in the next job you want.

And you can have more fun by choosing to work on the tech you do want.

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TheManInTheShack@reddit

Not all companies are that way. I don’t overwork my team. I give them a 4 day work week and unlimited time off. The average time at my company is over 13 years.

There are companies that value their employees. You just need to find one if that matters to you.

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Personal_Ad9690@reddit

Just do what you love with your time. If you want to give it to a soulless company, then make sure you feel fulfilled

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PatchworkBoyDev@reddit

Not even an old fart here and this is 100% best advice.

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mattmaster68@reddit

Hi, ADHDer here.

Where do I sign up?

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speedyrev@reddit

And never be afraid to turn in your notice. No advantage to stay where you are. I've waited for a promotion only to have less talented people put over me. Then it motivated me to look around and I got a better job. Stop waiting, keep looking, always be ready to move.

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shounenwrath@reddit

I learned early on that you should never invest yourself emotionally to a job. Do exactly what is expected if you and not a minute more. Your employer is not your friend. They don't care about you and neither should you.

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Novarupti@reddit

I want to get into programming as a career shift from construction. I'm 36. And I think Ai is an amazing tool with the right people using it correctly will make any tech field flourish. Not afraid of losing jobs to Ai but its something to learn and incorporate into the field.

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SuspiciousBrain6027@reddit

AI is doing my entire job for me. I’m just like a software engineering manager at this point

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NplSpaceProgram@reddit

You sir are a scholar and a gentleman

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Slipacre@reddit

Especially the part about AI as far as I am concerned it is still in beta. Sure it can be impressive, but those who put AI code into production are in for a hurtin.

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morganharlowe@reddit

Young fart here. My dad said this to me when I was starting to work. I work hard in my hours and after that I have my own passion projects and my life. My health is more important, my sanity, my family.

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orcunas@reddit

Another old fart here. He’s right, listen to him.

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KwyjiboTheGringo@reddit

Just predictable hustle culture nonsense I've been hearing from "gurus" on youtube for the last 5+ years, except with the new AI fad mixed in.

I think this is terrible advice for a junior developer. They should largely be avoiding AI, not trying to make money on the side releasing throw away junk, and using the time they have to become better developers. AI robs you of that growth in the name of productivity.

This thread is getting upvoted because everyone is obviously sick of corporate bullshit and the lack of loyalty, but it's terrible advice for juniors.

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SmallBallSam@reddit

The only important parts here to me are "Clock off exactly on time...work on a personal side hustle after hours."

All junior->intermediate devs should be doing personal projects. If you don't, you absolutely will not become a better dev.

Do NOT use AI in your side hustles as a junior or intermediate. Hell, as a senior, you better know damn well when to use it or not. The main point of personal projects is to gain skills, the main point of AI is to output something, they are completely at odds with each other.

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Global-Tune5539@reddit

AI gives me the opportunity to actually accomplish something next to my programming job and hobbies. I always was too burned out to do something when I got some time to spare. Now it doesn't feel too much like work. And I see results much faster.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

AI will change things from what we have known, you can bet on that.

Way way less than the hype promises, but hey, if you ignore it completely you will get left behind.

I'm old enough to remember the "You'll never replace assembler with compilers", yes we did, but I still use assembler in certain tiny but vital corner cases.

I'm old enough to remember the "You'll never replace mainframes with pc's", yes I did exactly that, but mainframes are still around for certain usecases."

I'm old enough to remember you'll never replace desktop apps with webapps....

...I can go on for another hour if you want...

AI will come along, it will be useful in some use cases, I use it quite often, learn to leverage it where/when it gives you leverage, and it will, ignore it where it doesn't.

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SmallBallSam@reddit

Of course it will, we don't have a clue how or when though. Going all in on the current garbage iterations of LLMs as a replacement for writing code is a terrible idea though.

Personal projects are about learning how to be a better engineer, you will not learn that by getting some AI to do the fumbling around for you.

Also if you want an actually good job in tech, where your job is to write performant software that will be used by hundreds of millions of people, then you need to learn to write it yourself. Juniors and intermediates definitely cannot do that yet, and a lot of seniors can't either.

Currently AI is a fad that your CEO is certain will double productivity with no tradeoffs to the company, they're more than willing to sacrifice the development of their engineers to achieve this. If you have to toe the line at work and use LLMs to generate half your code, then by all means. Do not make that tradeoff for yourself though, people will just be stuck exactly at the level they are currently at.

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Civil-Moment-6019@reddit

Or be a contractor and work for a high hourly rate

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NoForm5443@reddit

F.... No. This is horrible advice too.

You need to find the right balance. Of course, don't work so much you destroy your family, but realize the issue is not just work. Work hard, but at a sustainable rate, enjoy life, save some for the future.

Being a clock watcher makes you less happy at work. Figure out when it's warranted to work a little harder, or a weekend. Have fun and enjoy the challenge at work. Find teams where you like your coworkers. Find companies and projects you can be proud to work for.

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Odd-Drummer3447@reddit

If you are not able to finish your work in 8 hours, the problem is yours.

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Prnbro@reddit

This exactly. Do the job you are paid to do. Then use your passion and ambition to work on your personal projects! Even if they don’t amount to anything, you’re still an experience richer!

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Spikeupmylife@reddit

Around 10 years ago, I was an amazing worker. People loved being paired with me because I went all out. I went insane working like crazy to make people happy that will never be. I was on the edge of life every single day.

When I left and found my own happiness, the people I did work for before told me I used to be a better worker. "Yes, but the cost I had at that point was suicidal tendencies and relationship issues. I'm glad you miss those days, because I sure as hell don't!"

Honestly, if you are just getting into the workforce, it is going to be hard for you to understand the issue with the constant grind. You have big plans and things you want. Your brain is fresh, and everything is new and interesting, but I assure you, your bosses will suck any fun or interest you have for that job in the interest of profit. You'll be sitting in your 30s thinking wtf have I done with my life.

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Bloody_Ozran@reddit

Not just programming. Applied everywhere. I work in application support and we are basically working ourselves out of our jobs with management reassuring us that we are just helping to teach the AI to help us, no need to fear for our jobs...

Colleague of mine of about 20 years in the company mentioned how their "value" for his loyalty was laughable and he is very much questioning that choice.

To be fair I still see smart hard workers to rise in ranks, to some degree, but the rewards are not really there for it.

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EnderMB@reddit

I mostly agree with this advice, but I'd soften it to two points:

We're not doctors. For 99.999% of us no one dies if our software doesn't work or goes down. Hell, for the vast majority of us, if something we ship doesn't work most people don't notice or care enough to tell us. The worst that'll happen most of the time is that your boss will be unhappy. Hell, I've worked with people that fucked up so badly it resulted in the company failing - and guess what, they're still here and working in software. Sometimes that inability to care is what you need to let it go and improve your ability to write software, without being bogged down by office shite.
Your career is a marathon, not a sprint. As you get older you meet people that had grinded to FIRE, or those lucky enough to retire young. Life changes, you change with it, and things can go wrong (or right) at any moment.

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tsuki069@reddit

I agree as a young fart

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Fit-Duty-6810@reddit

This is so deep and it is a good advice for any other profession!

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ha_ku_na@reddit

As a 7yoe awe, I have eventually arrived at the same conclusion and trying to internalize this.

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AtraxaInfect@reddit

I've always been a clock watcher, I love my new career in tech but I'm not going to go out of my way.

My company pays me for an amount of time and that's what they get.

I enjoy my free time too much to allow work to dominate it.

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creamypastaman@reddit

Old Sage more like. Golden words indeed.

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PM_ME_BAD_ALGORITHMS@reddit

On my first year of college one of my teachers said "whatever happens, don't quit or let yourself be fired on your first 3 years working. Future companies will see that on your curriculum and think you are a quitter who gives up at the first hint of a rough time and you will never find a job again"

I was 19 at that time and I believed him.

On my first company, I was working 70-90 hour weeks, making minimum salary while my responsibilities kept ramping up. I was a fullstack dev for 3 projects, coordinator for another one and director of a fifth one. It was hell. I didn't speak to my friends in months. My parents had to watch me have anxiety attacks weekly. I went to bed crying.

This kept going on for 9 months. I was making under 20k/year.

At some point I snapped. I couldn't do it anymore. I quit.

Found a job next week.

It wasn't perfect or anything, but it was an improvement. Since then, I set some limits to myself on what I'm willing to do for the company I'm working for and it has worked out great for me.

I still hate that teacher.

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davejohncole@reddit

Been working as a software developer since finishing my Comp.Sci. degree in 1983.

The OP is 💯 correct.

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Equivalent_Cat9705@reddit

Another old fart who started programming in the 1980’s.

There is a physics equation, w = Fd, which is a great example of how to make money in our chosen profession.

First some basic substitutions. Since F (force) can be a function of power, let’s assume as power increases, force increases as well. Then, let’s express d (distance) as a function of time. We can make the assumption that as time increases, so does distance.

Now we have w = Pt.

In our field, knowledge is power and time is money. We can substitute those in and we get w = K$.

Solve for $ and we get $ = w/K. Therefore, money goes to infinity as knowledge goes to zero, regardless of work performed.

Unfortunately, over 40 years of writing software, I have seen empirical evidence supporting the conclusion. Do your job, do it well. Clock out at 5 and live your life.

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LargeSale8354@reddit

My Dad said "You can't get change from thankyou ". A friend's take on contracting "You don't have to pretend you are doing it for anything but the money, and they don't have to pretend to care".

You have entered into a contract where you exchange your skills for money.

When it benefits you, by all means go the extra mile, but if it detracts from your life, don't.

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Yufine_detective@reddit

Que coisa linda, eu printei, obrigada ❤️

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Singer_Solid@reddit

This old fart cautiously approves this message

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AutoPanda1096@reddit

Surely the goal is to work somewhere where you ate treated... better

I'm almost 50 and have worked in corporate and .com startup and always been treated well

I've always left on time and no one has ever complained.

Since covid all my roles have been wfh with days in the office. I come and go as I please.

I genuinely love coding and get paid well with nice bonuses.

Maybe working in the UK is just nicer! I'm assuming this is more US?

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69Cobalt@reddit

Don't you think that there's a possibility that putting in extra effort into challenging technical problems at work will have a larger ROI on your long term skillset, career, and earning potential than trying to scrape for pennies with "side hustles"?

That maybe your professional abilities expanding through making your 10,000 hours is valuable even if the employer does not appreciate you? That there is personal and professional value in doing difficult things outside of getting a gold star or a wad of cash from your boss?

In one of the lowest paying jobs of my career I consistently put in 50-60 hour weeks not because I had to but because I wanted to improve and get better. I also got laid off from that job but the skills and confidence me experience there gave me allowed me to more than double my comp in the next position, and enjoy the work itself more.

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shitshipt@reddit

But if you do it for the company you work for you may get the credit but you won’t get the pay. If you build a side hustle for when the final disloyal axe comes for your head, you will have been earning Pennie’s not nothing. You will have been networking, not developing systems for your ungrateful boss.

But hey, not everyone is comfortable with that and your feelings are valid too

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SkynetsPussy@reddit

I think the difference here is intent, you are doing it for yourself, not in a way to demonstrate "loyalty".

Its like work training, if its company specific, I don't care one way or the other (I will blitz through it as fast as possible), if its a cert or something that helps me and/or my resume, I will soak it up like a sponge and put effort in.

Same with work projects, if it is something that will further my career (NOT company specific) then yeah. But I do not do it out of loyalty which is what OP is talking about.

Seen enough layoffs (and been through a few) to know a company will drop you in the blink of the eye, if it makes the spreadsheet add up how they want.

1

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shitshipt@reddit

Thats fair enough

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69Cobalt@reddit

Exactly! People are so fixated on fairness, "someone else is gaining more from this than me ", that they completely miss the fact that you're gaining something from it!

The most miserable I've been in my career was working a laid back 10-20 hours a week at a beurocratic job I felt was dead end with no transferable software engineering skills. The most motivated I've been in my career was working a job where I was learning a ton with alot of responsibility and putting in 50-60 hours a week.

The pay for the two was almost the same and the workload of the second was double the first and yet I found myself happy, confident, growing. Because I was really working for myself and learning things that would benefit me not just trading time for money.

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SkynetsPussy@reddit

I can relate. Was involved in some project migrating a smallish infrastructure (30 - 60 servers) to cloud. Was more than happy to stay up at night figuring out how to put apps into docker containers and host them in azure and various other things. I was super motivated and willing to pay for my own Azure account to use as a sandbox. It was skills I was lacking.

However patching servers, which just consisted of Clicking “install updates” then leaving them to do their thing with my laptop next to me whilst watch TV. Yes I got paid OT for the time it took and it was easy, but… it just felt like a ruined evening. Honestly at end of the day I could not of cared less if a server was patched or not.

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69Cobalt@reddit

Yup you got the idea exactly! It's such an important skill to differentiate when you are investing in yourself and when you are trading time for money. Always invest in yourself and never take oppertunities for granted. Be myopically selfish sometimes and put horse blinders on to where you only care what you get out of something not what anyone else is doing (in work of course, not your family and shit).

The majority of successful people I know are ones that have this mindset and the majority of the unsuccessful people i know are the ones mired in bitterness and complaints.

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SkynetsPussy@reddit

The other thing which was actually told to me by a manager was always keep an eye on the job market to see what skills are in demand and to see if there are better opportunities. He was not a “company man” either.

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69Cobalt@reddit

Yeah don't get me wrong fuck that company man shit that is a relic of a bygone era and is just used to exploit workers. But there's a balence with company man on one side and I'm going to do the bare minimum and fuck the company on the other.

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SkynetsPussy@reddit

Oh yeah for sure, dedicating your soul to a company (at least until they lay you off) or doing Sweet FA,

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69Cobalt@reddit

Yup and I'm personally of the opinion that you have to throw that axis out all together, it's tempting but it's just not the right way to think about things. The company is just a vehicle for you to meet your goals and feed your family, nothing more nothing less.

Even the big spooky layoff monster is not a net negative - going through two layoffs in a 3 year span gave me so much confidence in myself and improved my job hunting abilities and overall skillset. There are bad things that happen but how you react to them and what your mindset is dictates your life so much more than the things themselves.

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69Cobalt@reddit

You're missing the point, it's not about the company, it's about the fact that the company is providing you with opportunities to hone your skillset by working on challenging problems for 40+ hours a week with (hopefully) smart colleagues.

I understand the bitterness people have towards employers but it can quickly get very "cut off your nose to spite your face ". Bitterness and resentment are usually not great motivators to develop passion and expertise in a field.

What if you could recognize that you're likely getting fucked and still extract all that you can out of the situation and choose to look at it as an opportunity to grow?

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needs-more-code@reddit

Opportunity to hone skills is something we all have without a company. I agree most people should do it at work, not home. Only because side hustles are harder and more demanding.

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69Cobalt@reddit

Well not only that but there are certain problems you're only likely to face at work. You can read DDIA all day long but the chances of you getting to actually work on a system with thousands of requests per second and millions of users without the backing of an employer are very slim and much more risk prone than a job.

Not every job is like this of course but you should be looking at what unique opportunities your job does provide and if it's not providing enough you should be working hard on an exit strategy. Money and hours worked are only part of the equation when you look at your long term success.

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needs-more-code@reddit

You can build a solution that COULD handle thousands of requests per second from home. You can load test it with end to end testing or postman.

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69Cobalt@reddit

But you don't really know it could until you do for real. The reason why experience is so highly valued in software engineers is because reality often has some unfortunate surprises that theory alone cannot make up for.

Not only that, but even if you built this perfect system at home you're not getting the experience of when things actually do go wrong in the real world and how to fix them. Knowing how to mitigate and hot fix unexpected failures is as valuable as designing the right thing in the first place.

Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

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needs-more-code@reddit

If it is just do to with developer experience, doing everything yourself at home has its unique advantages just like doing them at a company also has. You can get good experience with both of them. Writing every part from scratch will drill the concepts into your brain far better than small modifications to other’s work. Same with everything else you need to do - setting up CI pipelines etc. You can certainly have real users logging bugs in your personal app, and you can easily send thousands of real requests per second with postman. Sure, it’s good experience to do some things at a company for parts of your career, but it’s not that big of a deal to be the only factor considered when deciding to work for a company or a side hustle. Especially if you’ve already worked for companies.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

Part of what I'm pointing to is the future has changed...

The reason why AI is one of the greatest stock market hype bubbles ever is the megacorps hope to slash and burn their salary bills.

And the shareholders will push them to do so...

ie. My past will not be any junior programmers future.

I personally don't believe AI will in anyway live up to the hype....

...but it may be a decade before the megacorps work that out...

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

Depends a bit on how rich your city is in opportunities.

Most places each company is a local unicorn... they dominate the local market niche and honing your skills there is mostly honing skills that they're the only ones using.

But..

a) I have seen guys who burnt out their marriages and still not get ahead in the company.. b) and I have seen guys whose side work on new tech landed them a notch up the ladder in another company... c) and then a few years later, two or three notches up the ladder in the first.

ie. If the managers think you're going to stay anyway, they can't be arsed to promote.

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movzx@reddit

I don't see how you can claim to be an experienced engineer and also claim that the engineering done at individual companies is only going to develop skills applicable to that company.

You should be learning and improving your general engineering practices. You should be getting experience with designing systems. Experience with technical writing. Experience with all sorts of highly adaptable and applicable skills. Even your failures prepare you for the future.

Each job I have has built my skillset that let me get an even better job. At this point in my career, I am a director and it's not because I avoided working on hard problems.

Nobody should be burning the midnight oil for their employer (unless they are heavily compensated for it), but that is a lot different than phoning in your skill development just because it might benefit your current employer in the short term.

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apirateship@reddit

Working 50-60 is not the way.

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69Cobalt@reddit

How can you possibly make such a blanket statement without knowing anything about an individual's interests, passions, ambitions, and work ethic?

You do realize there are people in this world that derive satisfaction from competition and applying themselves to difficult tasks? Does the world's best surgeon become the world's best surgeon by working 39.5 hours a week?

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apirateship@reddit

The world's best anything is such a statistical anomaly as to not be relevant to the average person 😉

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69Cobalt@reddit

Of course, but the average person doesn't really exist, average is a statistical concept not an individual.

Obviously not everyone can be the best in the world, that was a hyperbole to get the point across but I strongly believe that with some time and effort most people have the ability to get well above average and reap the rewards. Not all of them will but they have the capability and as an individual you should be focusing on your expanding your own capabilities not the competition.

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apirateship@reddit

That's like, a value statement, man.

Kinda like my value statement.

Working 50-60 hours isn't the way: is not an unconditional statement, it's just, like, my opinion, bro.

Most people do not increase the level of happiness after wealth hits a certain threshold. There are other things you can do to gain fulfillment.

But again, most of that is my opinion.

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69Cobalt@reddit

That's fair and trust me I am not saying everybody has to work long hours to be happy or make good money (or even to be successful by their own measure). Your opinion is a valid one for sure!

I just say the things I do because this is what I would tell myself if I could go back 10 years. Maybe it's not what you or someone else needs to hear and that's fine, but I'm hoping my sentiments can reach the people like I was who try the whole do the bare minimum fuck the company clock-in clock-out thing that's so often espoused on reddit and find themselves miserable because of it.

There are different ways of thinking about things and if your way works for you then please tell me to go fuck myself you do what's best for you and your family. I just hope the people whose way isn't working out for them can learn from some of the experiences I've had because I've had to figure this shit out the hard way.

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no_onions_pls_ty@reddit

Nah, its absolutely not for everyone. Some people, probably alot more than would like to admit, can't do the minimum basics job competently within a 40 hour work week. Those are the people that should put in extra time for themselves, studying, personal growth and development, etc. The problem isnt those people though. It's the competent, the better than average, the true value and meat of an organization. Those people will rarely be promoted, and just used and chewed up.

The people who are actually smart, actually extremely competent, or extremely experienced. Those folks, the organization will never say, wow you rock, here is bonus, pay and time off for being so good. Instead they will under resource, under pay, and push. They will only look to exploit this resource to get more. Those kind of people need this talk, need to exploit the business, not the other way around. And its far easier than it seems.

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no_onions_pls_ty@reddit

Working 50-60, 70 is the way.... at least if that is what the perception is. The way is to work maybe 2 hours a day of real work. And a couple meetings if youre really feeling productive. And mostly YouTube and videos and stuff. During the difficult time of fucking around on the internet, make sure to complain alot about other verticals but say, im just venting.. of course we'll get it in for the deadline... things like, we'll deliver, we're here to do what thr business needs, its what we get paid for.

Then just don't do it. And make up some shit about requirements, or lack of transparency. Set people up far advance so when it fails you can just pass the "documentation" around saying.. see... even though you could have made ut not fail, youre setting a good precedent.

Make sure everyone knows youre swamped. If someone calls you, youll know you're succeeding if everyone starts with: sorry, I know you're swamped but... Just make sure you paused or muted that movie you were watching. One of my guys was in an executive call and I hear "finish him" in the background.. new mortal combat came out that year. I coughed real hard and blamed it on the new ide extension.

Evey 100 hour work week, every impossible project I pulled off, only resulted in bonuses and promotions for those thst took credit higher than me.

Every promotion ive gotten was because a project failed miserable and I didn't save the company and spent all my time blaming other departments and working politics and perception- hes a real go getter. Leadership material rofl.

I work at least 75 hours a week. I actually work like 20, but somebody's has to work 75 so it might as well be me.

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apirateship@reddit

Mah man

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A-Grey-World@reddit

Don't you think that there's a possibility that putting in extra effort into challenging technical problems at work will have a larger ROI on your long term skillset, career, and earning potential than trying to scrape for pennies with "side hustles"?

Massively glad I put the effort in. Always put myself forward for interesting new opportunities. Didn't break my back working crazy hours, but when it matters I put in the extra effort. It gets noticed, and has 100% paid off in my career.

Like, don't be delusional - your job is never secure, people don't want to employ you for fun. If you're doing good, you're fucking expensive.

But taking opportunities does help advance your career.

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69Cobalt@reddit

Yes 100%! And just to note while I worked alot at that job (because I felt it was worth it to me) I don't actually work that hard all the time. I have months where I do 60 hours a week and months where I do 30 hours a week.

I don't burn myself out for no reason or work for the sake of it but like you said when you see an opportunity you owe it to yourself to pursue it with intensity. Work for yourself and work when it actually counts.

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UncleBlazer36@reddit

Yeah, I think the tip here should be more like "Never burn yourself out on something if the work itself isn't providing you any value. If the work being done allows you to learn and get closer to your personal goals, then you're in a sweet position and you should take as much as you can out of that, while keeping your life balance in check."

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SkynetsPussy@reddit

I think the difference here is intent, you are doing it for yourself, not in a way to demonstrate "loyalty".

Its like work training, if its company specific, I don't care one way or the other (I will blitz through it as fast as possible), if its a cert or something that helps me and/or my resume, I will soak it up like a sponge and put effort in.

Same with work projects, if it is something that will further my career (NOT company specific) then yeah. But I do not do it out of loyalty which is what OP is talking about.

Seen enough layoffs (and been through a few) to know a company will drop you in the blink of the eye, if it makes the spreadsheet add up how they want.

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SuaveJava@reddit

THIS.

Where will you build the skill of delivering value for an employer, outside of work?

In advanced economies, all of the low-complexity work gets outsourced to immigrants or other countries. That means your ONLY chance to make money there involves developing very advanced cutting-edge skills.

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povlhp@reddit

AI is will replace the CEO before the good technical guys. Where i work, we keep running into bugs and other things nobody ever seen before.

Microsoft has never seen a company with more than 10k users, so no need to show more. Cisco firewall in monitoring mode that blocks traffic etc. we are just that sort of company.

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catholicsluts@reddit

You think a CEO will make that executive decision to be replaced by AI?

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povlhp@reddit

CEO is just an expensive guy hired by the board. Board can hire AI as well.

Only thing talking against it is that many boards are formers CEOs

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gnat_outta_hell@reddit

No.

The board will.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

True.... but it will be a decade before the shareholders understand that..

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apirateship@reddit

If you run into a bug that's been seen before it wouldn't be a bug

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Flakz933@reddit

As a younger millennial who worked with a boomer who just retired who was THE BEST developer I ever worked with, I'm SO fucking upset he put so much effort and energy into the work he did. It's not the comparison to him or anything, it's just I feel so bad he wasted all of his time and energy working 12+ hour days pretty often for a company who gave him nothing, took away his pension after they got bought out, basically haggled him when he said he was retiring, and treated him like dirt. I'm not full of experience like our older colleagues here, but I will agree, a company owes you nothing, and you owe the company nothing as well in return. The moment we become more costly than beneficial, we're canned. They don't give a fuck about us, and never have. They only cared before because finding people to do these jobs were dime a dozen, now we're so replaceable they won't put up with anything even slightly damning in their eyes.

Don't work that unpaid weekend, don't work that 2-3 hours extra in a day to finish a sprint item that was poorly estimated, don't do work off the clock to help a coworker. Once AI becomes a powerhouse they're gonna terminate all of us anyway, so fuck them. There's no plan to put Millennials in power, and if Gen X was younger, they wouldn't have plans to put them into power either. It's all about making a buck off the backs of us.

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AnnualAdventurous169@reddit

If you don’t want to sell things, whats the difference between scratching the itch with the ‘puzzle’ given to you by the employer opposed to finding something of your own to scratch it with, either way you are learning something.

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Previous-Task@reddit

This is good advice. From another old programmer

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Peterd90@reddit

I knew a guy that figured out the system in his early 30s. He didnt do anything other than look busy and talk. He lasted 1.5 years doing jack. Like absolutely no work.

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HawH2@reddit

Solid advice

But this is learn programming? Got some advice how to become a good problem solver and programmer?

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HawH2@reddit

Great advice

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cool-boy-365@reddit

I personally feel like it's less about working hard to get ahead - it's more like working hard so you don't get laid off.

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FEARoach@reddit

Worked for a company for a decade, am now battling to get what I am owed for a "no fault no notice" termination.

Nobody cares how hard you work. They care about the bottom line and the easiest thing to cut is payroll, and management thinks that everyone coming out of school is cheaper and harder working than whoever they have on staff at the moment.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

That's the insane thing... I have seen guys who have worked insanely hard... and the got laid off.

The funniest one was the guy they laid off and ask to write a hand over document of what his tasks were....

...the same guy who laid him off, took a look, squeaked and begged him to stay!

You assume that working hard == being valued.

Sadly most managers implicitly assume if what you do had any value you'd have the title and the big bucks they have.

Since you haven't, what you do has little value no matter how much of it your do!

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WoodyTheWorker@reddit

There was a time I redesigned some high-performance path of a storage driver. I was coding late. And then could not sleep.

Now, I value good sleep more than a completed design.

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elderly_millenial@reddit

Work hard to level up your skills. Work hard to build a resume. Work hard to improve your soft skills. Don’t work hard for the product unless you have something concrete tied to it as a benefit.

My bonuses are tied to meeting deadlines. I don’t need to meet them, but I like the money

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Due_Musician9464@reddit

I’m a middle aged fart and agree somewhat but also disagree. I feel that view is a bit too pessimistic.

I’ve worked really hard. People see that and it shows. I’ve climbed the ladder really fast and that’s why. But I never work overtime unless it’s a rare occurrence and I see why it’s needed. I always take my vacations. But when I’m working, I’m never half assing it. If I want to go for a walk and grab a coffee I do that. Then I get back to work and work hard. If you can’t make a deadline, you should have been telling them for months that the deadline isn’t realistic given the manpower etc. if you don’t make a deadline and they had no warning, that’s on you.

Be nice to your coworkers. Don’t kiss ass. That’s easy to see a mile away. Be respectful. Tell the difficult truth in a nice way when you need to. When you don’t need to, keep your mouth fucking shut. Try to grow those around you. It’s not only rewarding but also makes you look even better when everyone around you is succeeding. It frees really nice to be part of a team that helps each other out and has each other‘s back.

It’s true that companies don’t give a shit about you. But if you are a hard worker who makes those around you want to work hard too. That’s making them money. They will want to keep you if they can. Sometimes they can’t. But if you followed my advice and were nice and helpful to everyone, it will be easier to find a job in your network of people who respect you. When you leave/ need to leave a company, be graceful. You never know when those people will be around again. It’s a smaller world than you think.

Agree about the side hustle part. It’s great to have side projects. Always make sure you’re learning something from them that makes you more employable.

Remember to relax. Take care of yourself. Diversify your interests.

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mikesemperfi@reddit

Another old fart - started in 1973 on the mainframe (COBOL, CICS, DL1) - retired 2023 (C#, Javascript) . . . I'd listen to this guy. But he's correct, companies used to have loyalty - not anymore! They use you up, and then dump you.

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cagdascloud@reddit

Agreed 👍🏽

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hari_bo@reddit

Exactly, don't kill yourself over the job. I know people who barely get stuff done but BS their way out of responsibilities and deadlines. Knowing how to talk to coworkers and managers is a skill itself. Also, would advise people to look at side-hustles and improve on other non-coding skills because lots of uncertainty in this field.

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Important_Coach9717@reddit

Just on a serious note. The description is valid in the US only. Europe never had such a toxic work culture

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catholicsluts@reddit

Europe never had such a toxic work culture

Source?

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apirateship@reddit

His ass

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ehs5@reddit

It’s not exactly a secret that most of Europe, if not all, has a better work-life balance than the US.

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apirateship@reddit

Source?

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Important_Coach9717@reddit

Your mum

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apirateship@reddit

She's German

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gamanedo@reddit

European engineers done get paid shit. I make more than 7 of my euro counterparts put together. I have no fucking idea why I’m kept around, but here we are.

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Important_Coach9717@reddit

Guess you haven’t been to many European cities 🤣🤣

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gamanedo@reddit

I think I’m at 47. Not a ton, but I’ve been around.

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Acrobatic-Aioli9768@reddit

I don’t think European engineers work 50-70 hours a week either.

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gamanedo@reddit

I don’t either! I work maybe 40 hours a week, on a really good week.

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Acrobatic-Aioli9768@reddit

Ah okay, that’s good then. Is being on-call normal for you? I see this YouTuber that works at Amazon and he’s on-call every two weeks and sometimes he gets paged at like 3am.

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gamanedo@reddit

I did on call a bit when I was younger but quit that job pretty quick. These old men are kind of right: do a good job but clock out when the day ends at 5.

My career has been typical. Graduated from UC Berkeley in 2007, worked at a Whole Foods for a year then got a job at Google. The rest is history.

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Great_Guidance_8448@reddit

> Europe never had such a toxic work culture

Everyone is different. There's plenty of people who clock out at 5 pm and then some who choose not to. All within the same firm.

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Mortomes@reddit

I'm Dutch, and I have to say most places I've worked at have a pretty healthy view on work/life balance. There may be some self-selection going on there too though, since I would probably not choose to work at a company where I get a very "hardcore work" vibe in an interview.

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Important_Coach9717@reddit

The worst workplace I’ve worked in the Netherlands had a …..drumroll….. German director and US backers. Incompetence and toxicity beyond imagination …

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ObjectiveArmy9413@reddit

Back in the 80’s, as a US-based software engineer, I was very surprised when my Finnish counterpart told me his union wouldn’t allow him to put in any more overtime. The idea of a union for white collar engineers was completely and literally foreign to me.

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nephilim-nebula@reddit

Plenty of toxic work cultures in Europe, particularly in financial services and law.

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Important_Coach9717@reddit

All rooted in trying to emulate the “American” way

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UninvestedCuriosity@reddit

America's influence on work everywhere else is really frustrating since opportunity is not the same.

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needs-more-code@reddit

Facts. Non-Americans cannot be unaffected by America.

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baltarius@reddit

Nothing to do with the usa, it's just capitalism that goes all in.

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CodeMUDkey@reddit

What are you a cartoon character or something?

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LuxTenebraeque@reddit

In Europe you just don't get the same bonus pay for making it work on time. Of course not getting it to work means you get a lot of free time.

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ern0plus4@reddit

We have German work culture, which is different, but same level of fun.

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Important_Coach9717@reddit

This is called “autistic German” in the rest of the world

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ern0plus4@reddit

No, it's worse. Germans loooove meetings and doing paperwork and other non important things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC8PQPvQS-o

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JanitorOPplznerf@reddit

Having worked in a European company, this comment is full of shit.

You’re picking different flavors of toxic.

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Leading_Draw9267@reddit

From what i hear, i think it does but depends on the company.

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SkynetsPussy@reddit

Kind of agree (UK here, not mainland Europe and not EU), yes its not as bad as USA. I worked for a firm where the MD and below were UK, but C-Suite and Board were all USA, the place was toxic as hell.

However, that does not mean everywhere else is Rainbows, it still has its own shite places, compared to better places.

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shitshipt@reddit

Where I worked did. And for half the money!

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Emotional-Silver-134@reddit

This sounds like good advice. I'll keep it in mind if I ever get decent enough at programming to get a job in software engineering or development. I have been teaching myself on and off for a while and my adhd/bipolar ass needs structure that I currently don't have 😅

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vu47@reddit

I'm 48, got my PhD in computer science / math (combinatorial design theory), and went into astronomy, where the pay is great, the work is extremely rewarding, and I am given 10 weeks of sick leave a year and five weeks of vacation.

Most people who work at the organizations I work at (which are non-profit) stay there for 15+ years.

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gazzaridus47@reddit

From another old fart this IS sage advice. Live your life. The hours you burn out with cannot be given back, and honestly there is 20 gazillion other folk who can deliver the same output as yourself so dont kid yourself. Only a very few rise to the top.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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Material_Ad_7277@reddit

I’m very sorry to see people spending their evenings on doing some work related stuff just because it’s interesting.. yeah it could be, but, ffs please train LeetCode at that time, do not please your boss who doesn’t give a single f. about your future

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OG_MilfHunter@reddit

I'm curious... What value do you believe LeetCode provides? Isn't that mastering a useless skill for the next boss, who also doesn't give a single f?

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kayne_21@reddit

Still working on my undergrad and not super familiar with Leetcode, but isn't that basically training DSA application?

If that's the distillation of what that platform (and others like it are) then I leave these quotes here.

"The most important part of writing a program is designing the data structures. The second most important part is breaking the various code pieces down" - Bill Gates

"Bad programmers worry about the code. Good programmers worry about data structures and their relationships." - Linus Torvalds

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ukrokit2@reddit

Leetcode absolutely doesn’t cover the full depth of data structures and algorithms as an academic topic. It’s basically a small slice of common DSA patterns framed as tricky problems and the game is recognizing the pattern and spitting out a solution in under 30 minutes.

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kayne_21@reddit

Interesting, so it's only really worthwhile to practice Leetcode to prep for interviews that require it? Is there any value in actually practicing those types of problems in general? I guess what I'm asking, are any of the skills the Leetcode helps build worthwhile?

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ukrokit2@reddit

No, leetcode is just interview prep. It does not translate to real world use cases.

Now I’m not saying don’t learn DSA or "just use libraries bro" but if you actually want to go deep on algorithms (which every software engineer should imo), there are way better paths. Leetcode barely scratches the surface and over optimizes for speed that you just don’t need in real world software engineering.

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kayne_21@reddit

Now I’m not saying don’t learn DSA

Just from the quotes I linked earlier, I understand that DSA is super important (important enough my advisor told me to move it to next fall instead of spring 2027), I was more curious about the implementations on Leetcode,

Thanks for the info for sure!

Not really moving toward a software engineer path specifically (Computer Engineering major), but more firmware and embedded systems, which I'm sure DSA will be just as important for.

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JaviGames900_@reddit

its important enough to get a new job if your boss thinks that an AI agent can replace you. you get worse at it every day you’re not practicing

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shitshipt@reddit

He’s not advocating for that. He’s saying dont do that, make your own side hustle.

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aq1018@reddit

And that’s why I am a tech consultant. I would argue right now it’s the best time to be a tech consultant. Use LLMs to teach you how to sell, how to market, not how to code. Learn with breadth not just programming depth.

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eMaReF@reddit

Company loyalty is dead. Software development companies where I live these days (Minneapolis) seem to mostly only want temporary contractors.

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hellocppdotdev@reddit

How old is old exactly? Mid 30s feeling pretty damn old rn 🤣

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Holee_Sheet@reddit

Thank you. I'm still young but I've noticed that is better to do whatever they ask and no more as long as you do it well, than to try to impress companies by overworking

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jb@reddit

If you want to be truly valuable, get good at estimating your time for different tasks. The more accurate you can estimate your time, the more managers will like you.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

Step 0 towards doing that is creating and keeping fresh accurate burn down charts.

Nobody is accurate as unforeseen shit always arrives, but at least you can point at how much time that extra shit they shovelled in cost them.

Don't rely on manager or project manager to do it.

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AdDue8321@reddit

These AI posts are getting really good, they're even mimicking poor grammar realistically.

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RumbuncTheRadiant@reddit (OP)

I'm a Real Idiot, not an Artificial Idiot. ;-P

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chyld989@reddit

Middle aged fart here: 100% correct. 99% of companies don't care about you anymore, so return the favor. Click in at the start of your shift, clock out at the end, and do your best to not think about work until you need to clock in for your next shift.

Work life balance is important and should be as much "life" as possible.

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CrispeeLipss@reddit

As a wise man once said: The only people that will remember how dedicated you were to work and the long hours you worked, are your kids/family.

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Brilliant-8148@reddit

Finally a sane post

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Rain-And-Coffee@reddit

if you worked overtime you could work your way up the ranks

It's not about how many hours you work, it's about what you delivery and how your able to market yourself. Promotions and growth in a company is mostly selling yourself and playing the social game.

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about7beavers@reddit

I just watched the company I work for (big company with 10000s of thousands of employees) layoff two junior/intermediate developers in favor of offshore devs and AI. Right before the holidays too, and one on the day he came back from vacation.

I worked for a really small company before, and my boss there was super chill, so on rare occasions when needed I put in a few extra hours on nights and weekends.

But for this giant soulless company? I log in at 9 and out at 5, and they're never getting anything more from me than that. Us millennials are starting the trend, you youngins better keep it going. I promise if I'm ever in a managerial position, I won't give you shit for leaving at 5.

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turrboenvy@reddit

They also dont reward the people that work hard. They reward the people with visibility.

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DIYnivor@reddit

Old fart here. This is very good advice. I don't think you'll be replaced with AI anytime soon, but you'll be replaced with someone who knows how to use AI better than you very quickly.

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Kalkaline@reddit

We had a project manager die 2 days after an upgrade that took 3 weeks too long to complete. He was a good guy and to think that was his last professional accomplishment was a damn software update is a travesty. Work isn't worth dying over in most cases.

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DrahKir67@reddit

So, true. In one organisation I was working in, it seemed that all the project managers and above were divorced. The company demanded a lot and people sacrificed their home lives for it.

Don't do that

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xxfkskeje@reddit

I last 6+ years as a SWE now I work in cyber engineering. Though I am halfway burnt out, I actually really enjoy technical stuff and even build electronics in my spare time. However, work is work so this can be applied to any job really.

The key thing is though, don’t let work stop you from innovating. If you have a good idea, find the time to build it. Even if no money comes from it. We got into tech to build cool sh*t. That should encourage all of us to keep building.

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hmmorly@reddit

And then you left the industry, millions in the bank. The rest of your life secured..

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bonnth80@reddit

What if I want to be a LinkedIn lunatic that likes to pretend he's on some motivational poster about how real men work for free because of big-dick energy?

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jmansknx@reddit

Wise words. I studied programming, but went an adjacent route through infrastructure. Totally burnt myself out, nearly fucked my marriage, and it isn't/wasn't worth it. Now we're pretty broke, but my wife, kids and I have 100 percent better quality of life because I'm present. All it took was to stop grinding myself into dust for a bunch of faceless bean counters.

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SamsungSmartCam@reddit

One hundred percent. I keep meeting new folks who have the stars in the eyes and still think “Google’s motto is ‘don’t be evil’ and Perf reviews are to help you grow and get promoted”

Christ, no company is your friend.

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Recent_Science4709@reddit

Most programming jobs have nothing to do with technical innovation; you’re there to provide business value.

Burning yourself out to get cute doesn’t make any sense. Programmers that don’t understand what business value is just burn money. It’s bad on many levels.

This is why “old timers” love waterfall, it’s a big ol black box with little to no managerial insight.

If you understand what business value is, you’ll never get here in the first place and you can do it without the bitterness and cynicism.

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vyhot@reddit

someone's spitting wisdom fr

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Capable-Let-4324@reddit

As someone who worked on AI, seriously take this guys advice. AI has a ways to go before its eliminating anything even though those in charge think its going to happened tomorrow. I already had to explain how AI works to one of my friends bosses because he thinks because they have AI the job should've been done an hour after he requested it.

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jitterydog@reddit

Thank you so much

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chootybeeks@reddit

I’ve worked on the sales side of the house for a long, long time, and I can confirm that there isn’t a single company that cares about you or your development and they are continuously looking for more output using less people. Focus on you and your family, time is the only thing you can’t make more of and these companies want all of yours for next to nothing. I missed the first couple years of my sons life thinking that I was working so hard to provide for his future, but in the end, all I did was miss a lot of him and it cost me my marriage.

Fuck all these corporate shills, make them earn your loyalty, and still don’t give it to them.

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UntrimmedBagel@reddit

Good advice!

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General_Hold_4286@reddit

AI is the reason why you need to work more. Your employer is getting bombarded by emails by experienced developers who are unemployed. The business management soon will think about lowering salaries of developers. If you have a job, work hard to keep it. And even working hard may not be enough because they can hire somebody same skilled as you for less money now.

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Legitimate_Drama_796@reddit

I did this for my apprenticeship, was burning myself out and had barely any support. Management were shambles and made me redundant due to a bad year of sales. I learned my lesson there.

There was a 10x dev who was there a long time, nice guy and helpful, he was great at his job, just he was out the door almost the second the clock went 5. Lived round the corner, went home and gamed all night.

The more I look back, the more I respect how he did that. He knew the score and how much management cared about the hard work.

Now I still work my ass off, but i’m not staying a minute longer that i’m meant to. I unwind and if I have excess energy, go to the gym or continue with fun personal projects.

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