This is an old video. After investigation it turned out the wind check upon takeoff clearance (from Air Traffic Control) was within (crosswind) limits. Probably a difference between the wind at the location of the measuring equipment and the actual wind along the runway.
MET REPORTs often have touch down zone midpoint and end winds of the airports AWOS has the sensors install e.g. WIND RWY 23 TDZ 230/8KT MiD 230/12KT END 230/8KT
As a sailboat sailor I can confirm that wind conditions can be completely different in terms of speed and direction within just a few meters. This can easily be seen in regatas when two almost adjacent sailboats sail with sails configured for completely different wind conditions.
one thing I've always wanted to know is how you go the direction you want to go in a sailboat? like let's say I want to cross the English channel to Calais, but the wind is coming FROM France, how do you get there, or do you just reschedule
That's why boats have triangular sails. Big square sails perpendicular to the hull line catch more wind and you go faster, but only if the wind is coming from behind you.
I think the performance characteristic is in points, like if it can make headway in 8 points the wind can be coming from anywhere except within 45 degrees either side of the bow in front and it can still move forward - a traditional compass having 32 points.
Wouldn't it make more sense then to have a sail that can be both triangular and square? Surely in 5000+ years of sailing, someone thought of was way to match efficiency and speed.
You'd use the triangular sail to get out of port in a headwind, head south, then use the big square sails once they were clear to take full advantage of the tradewinds.
But the short version is you can go any direction except directly into the wind. If you have the wind at an angle, you basically set your sails so it's deflecting the wind so still moving you forward. Actually pretty similar to an airplane wing that provides a force upward even though the dominant wind direction is perpendicular (basically it's not blowing from below but the force is upward)
So once you can do that, you just go back and forth diagonally in the direction you want to go. It's obviously not as fast as a wind at your back but it gets you there.
On a sloop rigged sailboat, wind at your back is usually not fastest. Wind on or just aft of the beam is usually the fastest point of sail (in terms of boat speed vs wind speed).
Like HenryV ? You wait until the right moment and when it happens…you declare (in a commanding tone) “NOW SITS THE WIND FAIR! … AND WE SHALL ABOARD!”…
Then you invade 🇫🇷!
Sailboat with triangular (bermuda) shaped sails can sail in any direction except directly into the wind. It can sail at 45° angle to the wind. As others said, if the wind is coming directly from the direction of your destination you can tack or zig zag your way to your goal.
Going into the wind (at 45° angle) feels like the boat is going fastest (because of the apparent wind) while sailing downwind is the slowest, because of the resistance of the water. The fastest way to sail is perpendicular to the wind.
Sails are like airplane wings. Below the boat there is a long (or heavy) keel that keeps the boat from overturning but also makes the boat go forward. Basically the same principle as in aviation. The airplanes are landing and taking of into the wind because the wind is what gives them lift - same as in boats.
But more importantly for you or anyone else reading. Sailing is waaaay easier than it looks. You should try it, it is also very very fun.
As a former Navy helicopter pilot, I would like to note that boat drivers love to play “let’s see if he’ll believe this number “ when stating the winds
The constant monitoring and deep understanding of those chaotic patterns and knowing how to see them on the water demonstrate such crazy skill and experience levels. Like I've never manned anything more complicated than a 20 ft. sloop in Biscayne Bay but it was so fun trying to figure out where to get the best winds and try to outpace others around the "tracks" we set up.
For non sailors, you can see this on the water. Puffs of higher wind agitate the surface, and sailors are trained to seek these areas out while racing.
I can imagine the pilots beginning the takeoff based on the weather information they were given, but I can't see how they wouldn't stop the first time the wind almost blew them off the runway.
What are the rejected takeoff criteria at your airline? Maybe I missed it but I never saw them almost get blown off the runway, the mains never even got beyond the centerline.
The faster you go, the more rudder authority you get. The slower you go, you get less controlability. The runway also looks real wet so nose wheel traction was reduced and they're relying on rudder authority quite a bit.
If the wind truly was almost blowing them off the runway, trying to abort the takeoff could put them in a stickier situation. Wind starts blowing you to the side. You immediately abort the takeoff. Your rudder is becoming less and less effective so you start drifting more. Your nose wheel is fighting for its life trying to find grip on a sopping wet runway but can find any. You have a runway excursion and have to do a buttload of paperwork and explain your thought process of why you aborted.
Or you can do what they did in this video and safely takeoff. I wasn't in the cockpit so I'm not gonna Monday morning quarterback the pilots' thought process but I can say, they got airborn and didn't damage the aircraft so it looks to me like their decision making was just fine.
If you high speed abort a takeoff “before v1” because the winds ticked up 2 knots above limits, you fucked up big time. Especially in these conditions.
The only way for them to realize the wind being out of (crosswind) limits, would have been the amount of control inputs required to stay on the runway centerline.
Even if they realized or even considered the wind being out of limits, a high speed Rejected Takeoff (especially in strong crosswinds) isn’t always safer than accelerating a few knots extra to rotation speed and getting airborne of the runway and away from obstacles.
Cross wind limits are not determined by aircraft design limitations. The aircraft couldn’t care less what the cross wind is.
The POH or POM or in the military ‘the -1’ states verified cross wind limits as determined by the test pilots of the aircraft manufacturer. Based on the vast experience of this test and evaluation team, one should remain modest and stay below thise figures.
Cross wind landing and, to a lesser degree, cross wind T/O’s are an art form for which each pilot should know his own limits. And these limits should definitely be below the recommended cross wind limits from the manual.
Even if highly experienced and well trained up to a year ago, a pilot should be extremely careful and modest to face strong cross winds if not practiced recently.
Crosswinds are absolutely different for different designs. Reducing crosswind component can be done with higher speed and that affects performance, such as landing distance. Also in order to maintain alignment you need to bank and you can only bank so much before you hit the wing on the ground.
I grant you, it's not a function of aerodynamic design, but different models definitely have different limitations.
Never said the design wouldn’t respond to cross winds in their own ways. My point was that the limits are not ‘by design’ so inherent to the airframe but ‘by choice’ of the demonstrates cross wind limits by the designer’s test team.
Each and every pilot needs to make his/her own decision for each landing, with the cross wind limits as upper bound. It’s perfectly OK to abort a cross wind landing with winds below the limits if the pilot doesn’t feel up to it.
I also understand aircraft insurers take the x-wind limits as upper bound, so going over these does not guarantee a certain problem (remember: only demonstrated performance) but if something happens, there’s no coverage.
The industry is slowly changing. In the US/Europe, crosswind limits used to be a "recommendation" while in the Russian regulations they were hard limitations. This means it is perfectly fine for a pilot to exceed the limits of the manual if they feel comfortable with it, even not knowing the actual effects. In reality it's a bit more complicated than a pilot can judge from the cockpit, so there's always some uncertainty involved.
More recently, other authorities outside US/EU started requiring limits for special operations and now there is a tendency to adopt limits which will make operation safer, but more restrictive.
No UK airline I’ve worked for has treated crosswind limits as recommendation. They’re limits. Previously gusts weren’t included in the limit, but now gusting is only allowed up to the limits. The only time a pilot would operate outside of limits is when it is justifiable as the safest option.
In my experience the manufacturers crosswind limits are "demonstrated" - meaning a test pilot was able to maintain control with this much wind on a test flight. Doesn't mean a takeoff or landing isn't possible with more wind, just that they didn't have those conditions for the demonstration.
The hard limit comes not from the manufacturer but from the insurance company. So your company will have a hard limit because if you exceed it they're holding the bag.
Totally. Those limits are based on the manufacturer recommended limits, however. They may or may not be the maximum observed by a test pilot, but they are laid down by the manufacturer as recommended limits in their manuals. Airlines and insurers are not likely to exceed something recommended by the manufacturer for obvious liability reasons.
Insurers at different companies do indeed impose further limits, but these are usually that a pilot needs X amount of experience before operating to the limits laid down in the manual.
That's the same as what I've written, the CAA never overruled existing manuals to my knowledge, in the past airlines were free to come up with their operational rules which is a rather weak approach. Limitation in more modern sense means no landing above limits under no circumstances, which is something that is only starting to be implemented. Also means changing how dispatching os l planning will be fine in the future.
I’m not sure what the actual wind was doing in this clip but all aircraft have a maximum demonstrated crosswind limit. The limit is there so that they can maintain directional control and stay on the runway for the duration of the takeoff. This looks like it must’ve been pretty close to that limit. Incidentally, the limit is often different for takeoff and landing. The aircraft I fly has a 32kt limit for takeoff but 40kts for landing. When the wind is getting up near the maximum you really need to be assertive with the controls to maintain directional control
In fly by wire aircrafts such as Airbus etc.. can you really be assertive with the controls? I'm not a pilot but used to work in IT for a carrier and I remember hearing pilots joke about the aircraft not really being responsive in some situations.
Fly by wire is more just about how the controls are set up, i.e. there is no direct cable link between the controls in the cockpit and the actual control surfaces. What I mean by assertive though is that you really need to use positive, decisive control inputs and not mess around being sloppy or half hearted. I see some people that are quite timid with how they respond to external factors sometimes.
Does fly-by-wire work in commercial aircraft in the way it does for fighter jets? That is, the control doesn't actually move that much, the response of the plane is directly proportional to how hard/quickly you move the stick. Are Airbus with the side controls also like that, or does the stock move around a lot?
Yeah pretty much, the flight laws that are governed by the flight computers do a lot of the work in between the control import and the actual surface deflection. You’d be surprised how little input you need on an airbus to get a response. I came off turboprops before moving to the A330 and during my initial training I was always over controlling because I was used to putting in large inputs to control the aircraft. The funny thing with the airbus sidestick is that if you let it go it returns to a neutral position and so when you for example roll in some bank, you apply the control input and then let the stick centre until you want to roll out. took me awhile to get comfortable with it but it’s pretty good
That's what my instructor keeps giving me a "well earned" hard time for. Giving proper amount of input when needed is vital for flying to be safe. No "let's adjust gradually" when you need to kick the rudder.
This is a great answer. I’d just add that wind gusts amplify the challenge of effective crosswind control, takeoff or landing. If you have full rudder in to de-crab on a takeoff roll and a wind gust takes you beyond the limit for your current airspeed, you’re going to drift off centerline. All aircraft I’ve flown require the pilot to add in the gust called by the tower to assume worst case.
The more airspeed you have, the more effective the rudder will be, and the less crosswind control you’ll need. Hence, higher landing crosswind limit. Bank angle is the other limiting factor when close to the ground. You can roll into the wind to maintain centerline, but for example if you only have 18 inches of clearance on your engines, you’re going to scrape a pod or a wingtip.
It looks like the rudder is centralised at the point of lift off, which wouldn’t help in keeping the aircraft tracking the centreline. I’ve not flown the 737, but on other Boeings the recommendation is to lift off with crossed controls (side slip) and slowly neutralise the controls after take off.
There should be enough aileron on that side to hold the wing level, some spoiler deflection is also possible depending on the wind strength, but ideally using aileron only to minimise drag.
It's exactly the same on the 737, take off with crossed controls, which enabled wings to remain level and to track the centerline, then gently neutralise them once you are airborne.
That was my first thought: what's the emergency that demands this?
Obviously if you need to land, you need to land some time so crosswind landing is understandable. But to take off into conditions like this seems insane.
Exactly. What if they needed to do an air return do to an issue? Certainly not good conditions to be thrust back in to for honestly really no good reason.
There are limits specified for each aircraft type, but it's the Pilot In Command who's responsible for deciding if it's safe or not, even if below those limits.
There's more to wind than what can be summarized in a single speed and direction. A constant sidewind will be easier to manage than, say, a more gusty wind that is constant changing speed. The weather can complicate things too, like snow or rain in addition to the wind.
My worst takeoff was during a “mistral” (i.e. wind that blows from the north with huge gusts) event in southern France.
We could feel the plane moving even when just boarding and finding our seats. The plane took off facing north of course, and it was a bit bumpy. But because there are some mountains not far from the airport in the north, it had to turn, making that wind crosswind.
It was bumpy af. Everybody was white knuckling the seats and armrests and the plane alternated veteran sepulcral silence and panicked gasps.
And then suddenly it stopped once we reached the appropriate altitude.
All this to vent and to say that indeed gusty (cross) wind fucking sucks.
I had a similar experience flying into Innsbruck once. Innsbruck has a single runway essentially in an east-west orientation along the valley floor in the middle of the Alps. One December night there was a strong Fön wind, warm winds from the Sahara that hit the Alps from the south. Because of the terrain surrounding the airport we had to fly well past Innsbruck, almost out to Switzerland on a flight from Vienna, before turning back towards the airport and dipping below the mounting peaks. We spent about 30 minutes being pushed around by the turbulent air rolling over the mountains. I lived there for a few years and never experienced anything as rough as that flight.
I 'm not a pilot at all, but I believe that a pilot should always be allowed not to perform certain actions if he/she's not comfortable doing it. Like landing. If you feel like you can't make it safely to the ground, just do a turnaround and retry. If still you feel unsure do it again. Until you 're comfortable.
I could only assume the same goes for takeoff. If for whatever reason you're uncomfortable taking off, nobody can force you to do so.
The airframes ability to perform and the pilots ability to perform are two separate functions. This takeoff became unsafe when the lowest of each function was exceeded.
I’d agree but both crew members have been trained with crosswind up to the maximum. Whether the aircraft may have been handled better in this instance, might be true but impossible to know for sure. Either way you wouldn’t expect professionals with appropriate training to say know to a takeoff at a fairly benign airfield when the winds within limits.
Well, honestly, I agree with him. I can clearly see the controls positioned in very inappropriate ways based on the aircraft motions. So I am decently confident that they are not performing well during this takeoff. I have trained hundreds of people in extreme crosswind conditions, performing during training with opportunities to correct your actions and safeties in places, vs real world we’re gonna crash if we do this too badly are very different situations. Do know what they call the person who graduates last in medical school?….Doctor. Half of all pilots are below average.
I never said it’s a pretty bit of flying, I was referring to the decision to initiate a takeoff in those conditions. There’s a difference between reckless and ‘probably should be flown better’.
I have a solid grasp of how good the average 73 pilot is, I teach them most days of the week - but I have no anxieties about sitting in the back to go on holiday (except a small percentage of well known individuals aside)
There's plenty of things that you can do that are "within limits" but you wouldn't do. A 737 will happily do 45 degree bank turns but a pilot with passengers onboard isn't going to do it.
But for commercial air transport the limit isn’t 45 degrees, and the aircraft will shout at the pilot before it gets near 45. There is a difference between what the aircraft can physically do, and the more restrictive limit applied for commercial transport operations.
The aircraft tracks the centreline sufficiently well. Without other information such as a pilot report, there is no reason why a pilot trained and qualified to fly to the limits wouldn’t depart.
Wind like that isn’t a regular occurrence, and it can be challenging, particularly when gusty. Whilst the aircraft should have tracked the centreline through lift-off, the safety zones around a runway are designed to take drift like this into account.
I presume it's about your experience and what your guts are telling you. You must remember about 150+ people on board whose life depends on your actions.
This comment is complete horseshit. It wasn’t reckless flying at all. And if you refuse to takeoff while winds were within limits good luck keeping a fucking job
That's a different thing entirely from what was being discussed, so I don't know why you're saying that like that has any relevance to the conversation at hand
No response with real info so take what you will from the 737-800 manual, (Jet looks like a series before this but the manuals will nit be significantly different, hamds up will accept any comments from actual pilots if the jet in the video) ...
Crosswind Takeoff differences:
Close to, or max thrust, suggested when wind near all crosswind.
Rolling start encouraged.
As you roll down the runway, limit roll inputs to maintain an approximate wings level indication throughout the takeoff roll.
I see deployment on the keft wing which doesnt make sense to me. Huge crosswind from the left, as speed picks up you 'maintain eings level', this pilot did not.
Limits exist, very clearly, written in black and white in the manual. I cant speak for the limits of this particular jet but I can speak for the lack of roll control by the pilot.
Just trying to input some actual true information.
What’s funny is that after landing in such conditions sometimes in the terminal I hear passengers complain about the landing and that it was too rough for their liking
It appears as though the pilot neutralised the controls too soon which resulted in the drifting off the runway at low altitude.
Every aircraft needs "aileron into wind", particularly during a take-off with a strong crosswind - essentially the left wing in this video will produce more lift that the right wing due to the crosswind, left aileron input will counter this roll moment (you can see the roll spoilers momentarily deploy during the take off roll on the left wing).
Also, the airplane has a tendency to weather cock into wind due to the horizontal stabiliser - the pilots must put in right rudder to maintain the runway centreline.
Thus as they rotate, the pilot should have "crossed controls" (left aileron/ right rudder) in order to track along the centerline. Once airborne they gradually neutralize the controls and the aircraft enters a crab, which is not what they did here.
Left aileron to counter the right roll moment due to the crosswind, and right rudder to counter the left yaw moment in order to maintain the runway centerline. The aircraft's natural tendency is weather cock into wind - in this case, it wants to weather cock left.
Thus at rotation, the controls should be "crossed" in a crosswind, or in other words a sideslip. Within a few moments, the pilot gradually neutralises the controls as the aircraft enters a crab, ideally tracking along the centerline as it climbs away.
The tendency to weather vane is present when the aircraft is airborne but on the ground if the pilot were to apply right rudder they would go off the runway. The wind from the left is already pushing the aircraft to the right so if they applied right rudder it would aggravate the movement to the right.
You can see in this video - they have varying degrees of right rudder applied as they accelerate, and that input is there until rotation. They also have left aileron input (roll spoilers deployed on left wing), but I suspect they neutralised the both inputs too early which lead to a low altitude drift over to the grass.
I'm also talking from experience.
I've 10,000 hours flying experience: 7000hrs on heavy's, 3000hrs on mediums, a few hundred on light aircraft.
I have been a 737 captain for 29 years. I have departed in limiting crosswinds many times and never had the upwind wing lift like that. Or been unable to track the runway centreline.
This is about as close as you can get without tapping a wing into the ground. Skilled pilot for sure, but those winds could have gusted too hard at the wrong time and this would've turned out poorly
Runway heading vs track are two different things. This is why when flying at high altitudes we rarely assign a head but we use 10, 15, 20 degrees left/right. If we do assign a heading we will normally ask for their current heading first. One day it will be a 090 heading the next it will be 120.
You guys get to see in real time how bad our auto throttle actually is. I'll definitely set 280 knots, but what the automation actually decides is acceptable seems to change from plane to plane.
If we really need those extra couple of knots then it's our fault.
If, like a certain European carrier, you enjoyed flying 747s at 295KIAS into your home airport while being restricted to 260, you will hear a different tone of voice
Stupid idea to take off on that runway under those conditions. Passengers expect pilots to exercise sound judgment and decision making. This was neither. The pilots we very lucky to get away with it and undoubtedly their Chief Pilot had words with them.
Just curious from the people who know more than me…. Is this just a case where it only looks bad but the plane just has so much thrust that it’s going to generate lift and you just power thru it?
Or do you have really serious issues with the crosswind across the wings taking away lift or changing the roll of the plane and putting one/both wings surfaces into a stall?
Just curious from the people who know more than me…. Is this just a case where it only looks bad but the plane just has so much thrust that it’s going to generate lift and you just power thru it?
Basically. The issue with crosswinds isn't one of lift, but if the crosswinds are too high you have to crab like you can see in the video. This is usually fine on landing, it's not something you normally see during takeoff.
Or do you have really serious issues with the crosswind across the wings taking away lift or changing the roll of the plane and putting one/both wings surfaces into a stall?
That's not really an issue because the crosswinds are still coming from the front of the plane, so you shouldn't lose any lift unless the wind dies out. It's more about being able to keep the wheels straight going down the runway, at a certain wind speed and crosswind component you will be unable to keep the plane going straight down the runway. You do have to worry about the winds changing the attitude of the aircraft but that's what the pilots are trained for.
Also….who did this video? The pilot behind?
A planespotter on the ground off the end of the runway.
I was on a plane during a takeoff like this, in a blizzard in Baltimore. After de-icing for like an hour we decided to go for it. The whole plain went diagonal before liftoff and the all passengers collectively groaned in horror. It was awful.
Airport designers b like “let’s point the runway this way to keep things interesting”. I know a huge number of factors go into airport design and runway headings, but I feel like some airports are notorious for their cross wind conditions.
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Not to be rude but that's a dumb take lol, it's clearly real and not reversed. What you're suggesting makes zero sense and also the spray from the wheels is moving outwards not inwards.
But he wasn't supposed to keep runway track. He was supposed to keep the runway heading. Pilots shouldn't take corrections for wind, when he maintains runway heading. It's for parallel departures safety.
It is explained here with sources, just for example: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/should-you-fly-runway-heading-or-runway-centerline-on-takeoff-vfr/
No problem. I guess you're not a pilot or controller, so just to clarify, as this is kind of a common misconception for people not "in the business": heading means direction in which aircraft nose is pointing to, and track is direction in which it actually moves.
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I can see a huge lack of corrective aileron which would’ve made this look much safer. It’s a problem I can see on the line daily in my airline. People using zero to non crosswind correction for takeoffs. While this guy used some aileron, he should’ve used much more.
I flew once from Bournemouth and as soon the play was rotating just tilted to the right, inside me being on the left of the plane felt like we will flip over and more becuase was out of the blue, a gust of wind, fuck that men so awful feeling, and probably was just 2-3deg of inclination but felt like 45 xd
At what point (wind strength vs engine power) does the wind become able to go so strongly against the plane that the plane can't actually 'go' in the heading the pilots need it to go?
Just by the fact, that there has been much much crazier take-offs blows my mind. I love the harsh turbulence, but when it comes the time to take-offs it make me a little nervous even though I'm taking place in aviation. Maybe someone has a video from their own experiences?
As a pilot, we train for this, but there's definitely a point where it's no longer safe and they'll close the runway. That Geordie commentary in the original video is the perfect soundtrack to this kind of wild takeoff. It's a serious maneuver, but hearing that "KLM34, runway heading" call over the radio just adds to the surreal vibe of the whole situation.
Maruan-007@reddit
Any pilot in the comments can pls explain if this was safe or there are actually some certain limits for crosswind takeoff’s ?
Flyingdutch737@reddit
This is an old video. After investigation it turned out the wind check upon takeoff clearance (from Air Traffic Control) was within (crosswind) limits. Probably a difference between the wind at the location of the measuring equipment and the actual wind along the runway.
ShieldPilot@reddit
The airport where I got my license routinely had the windsocks at the two ends of the runway pointing in opposite directions.
dropbluelettuce@reddit
MET REPORTs often have touch down zone midpoint and end winds of the airports AWOS has the sensors install e.g. WIND RWY 23 TDZ 230/8KT MiD 230/12KT END 230/8KT
sauzbozz@reddit
Our wind readout went out in the tower and the 8 or so windsocks I could see were all different
ShieldPilot@reddit
“Automated weather at 1632 Zulu. Wind, yes at yes.”
Warm-Buyer-8823@reddit
As a sailboat sailor I can confirm that wind conditions can be completely different in terms of speed and direction within just a few meters. This can easily be seen in regatas when two almost adjacent sailboats sail with sails configured for completely different wind conditions.
linux_doggo@reddit
one thing I've always wanted to know is how you go the direction you want to go in a sailboat? like let's say I want to cross the English channel to Calais, but the wind is coming FROM France, how do you get there, or do you just reschedule
opotamus_zero@reddit
That's why boats have triangular sails. Big square sails perpendicular to the hull line catch more wind and you go faster, but only if the wind is coming from behind you.
I think the performance characteristic is in points, like if it can make headway in 8 points the wind can be coming from anywhere except within 45 degrees either side of the bow in front and it can still move forward - a traditional compass having 32 points.
cat_prophecy@reddit
Wouldn't it make more sense then to have a sail that can be both triangular and square? Surely in 5000+ years of sailing, someone thought of was way to match efficiency and speed.
plhought@reddit
Every modern sail boat in the last 100 years can sail into wind....
Not sure what you are on about.
opotamus_zero@reddit
Sure you just put both kinds on the same ship.
Consider the Atlantic from Europe to America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_winds#/media/File:Map_prevailing_winds_on_earth.png
You'd use the triangular sail to get out of port in a headwind, head south, then use the big square sails once they were clear to take full advantage of the tradewinds.
wivella@reddit
There's all kinds of different sail shapes for different purposes. You could even combine them.
Acceptable-Reason864@reddit
" triangular sails"? is more of a wing shaped sails which do produce lift just like a wing of a plane.
LupineChemist@reddit
As others have mentioned, it's called tacking.
But the short version is you can go any direction except directly into the wind. If you have the wind at an angle, you basically set your sails so it's deflecting the wind so still moving you forward. Actually pretty similar to an airplane wing that provides a force upward even though the dominant wind direction is perpendicular (basically it's not blowing from below but the force is upward)
So once you can do that, you just go back and forth diagonally in the direction you want to go. It's obviously not as fast as a wind at your back but it gets you there.
BTMarquis@reddit
What I still can’t wrap my head around, is how a wind powered plane can travel at like 10x the speed of the wind.
observant_hobo@reddit
If you really want your mind blown, there are wind-powered cars that can go downwind faster than the wind itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird_(wind-powered_vehicle)
cat_prophecy@reddit
This sounds like something that if you saw it in a video game, people would say the physics are broken.
NoRodent@reddit
Veritasium has a great video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyQwgBAaBag
And the follow-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI
Gripe@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_wind
comptiger5000@reddit
On a sloop rigged sailboat, wind at your back is usually not fastest. Wind on or just aft of the beam is usually the fastest point of sail (in terms of boat speed vs wind speed).
SquarePegRoundWorld@reddit
When will I be there, I don't know, when will I get there, I ain't certain, all's I know is I'm on my way.
OptiGuy4u@reddit
Yep, that's sailing for you!
ktrezzi@reddit
Nice try, France!
K_VonOndine@reddit
Like HenryV ? You wait until the right moment and when it happens…you declare (in a commanding tone) “NOW SITS THE WIND FAIR! … AND WE SHALL ABOARD!”… Then you invade 🇫🇷!
Amaroq81@reddit
Tacking in a zig-zag pattern into the wind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)
MrD3a7h@reddit
[Fixed link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)) for those on old reddit and certain mobile apps.
Warm-Buyer-8823@reddit
Sailboat with triangular (bermuda) shaped sails can sail in any direction except directly into the wind. It can sail at 45° angle to the wind. As others said, if the wind is coming directly from the direction of your destination you can tack or zig zag your way to your goal.
Going into the wind (at 45° angle) feels like the boat is going fastest (because of the apparent wind) while sailing downwind is the slowest, because of the resistance of the water. The fastest way to sail is perpendicular to the wind.
Sails are like airplane wings. Below the boat there is a long (or heavy) keel that keeps the boat from overturning but also makes the boat go forward. Basically the same principle as in aviation. The airplanes are landing and taking of into the wind because the wind is what gives them lift - same as in boats.
But more importantly for you or anyone else reading. Sailing is waaaay easier than it looks. You should try it, it is also very very fun.
cat_prophecy@reddit
Is that why you often see smaller sail boats, angled way over at 45 degrees: they're sailing perpendicular to the wind?
Warm-Buyer-8823@reddit
It's called heeling. The more the boat sails toward the wind it heels more (and the more the wind is stronger). Bigger sailboats also heel.
MasterShoNuffTLD@reddit
The sail acts like an airplane wing on its side. Instead of pulling you up into the air like a wing it pulls the boat forward.
ER_Support_Plant17@reddit
The orcas push you
YogurtclosetBusy1601@reddit
Same as how a plane generates lift
ABoutDeSouffle@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)
DocDefilade@reddit
Reef and heave to!
extrasupercilious@reddit
Heaving to stops the boat, which you wouldn't do in a regatta
Shabuti3@reddit
Could we substitute the heave for more hos?
xpietoe42@reddit
But you have to pay the hos… the heaves are free
DocDefilade@reddit
I'll allow it.
DocDefilade@reddit
Yeah well, that's if you're trying to win.
If you're sailing in Mexico you can heave and participate in a margaritta instead.
johnnyribcage@reddit
Ya say “jibe ho,” and THEN ya jibe!
ScribbleOnToast@reddit
No, no it's "jump, jive, and then you wail away"
TheTense@reddit
HELMS TO WEATHER!
indimedia@reddit
Who you callin a jibe ho!?
lolariane@reddit
Where are you getting all that sail from?!
kippen@reddit
As a sailboat, I concur.
adw2003@reddit
As a former Navy helicopter pilot, I would like to note that boat drivers love to play “let’s see if he’ll believe this number “ when stating the winds
SweatyFLMan1130@reddit
The constant monitoring and deep understanding of those chaotic patterns and knowing how to see them on the water demonstrate such crazy skill and experience levels. Like I've never manned anything more complicated than a 20 ft. sloop in Biscayne Bay but it was so fun trying to figure out where to get the best winds and try to outpace others around the "tracks" we set up.
FullTime4WD@reddit
No sailboat for me, but i have done a hurricane or three in my ocean tug lol
Planterizer@reddit
For non sailors, you can see this on the water. Puffs of higher wind agitate the surface, and sailors are trained to seek these areas out while racing.
peterdeg@reddit
I once stood at the terminal on Lord Howe island.
Three windsocks were visible. They were all pointing in different directions.
Affectionate_Tea1134@reddit
If the runway was perpendicular to the that one would you rather take off into the wind or have it on your back ? 🤔
GroundbreakingOil434@reddit
Runways are generally not strictly perpendicular. They follow the windrose. A runway swap may make things worse, not better.
Ivebeenfurthereven@reddit
Aircraft always take off and land into the wind if they can.
Imagine trying to take off downwind, you'd run out of runway before your wings had enough airspeed to lift you off
Aircraft carriers in the Navy head into wind if they can to make pilots' lives easier
Prod_Meteor@reddit
The pilot fucked up big time. Had strong winds before V1.
RhynoD@reddit
I can imagine the pilots beginning the takeoff based on the weather information they were given, but I can't see how they wouldn't stop the first time the wind almost blew them off the runway.
Prod_Meteor@reddit
Not almost! It blew them out of the runway. They just made it to lift off just before that.
Several_Leader_7140@reddit
When did the wind almost blew them off? I’ve done takeoffs in similar conditions
ARottenPear@reddit
What are the rejected takeoff criteria at your airline? Maybe I missed it but I never saw them almost get blown off the runway, the mains never even got beyond the centerline.
The faster you go, the more rudder authority you get. The slower you go, you get less controlability. The runway also looks real wet so nose wheel traction was reduced and they're relying on rudder authority quite a bit.
If the wind truly was almost blowing them off the runway, trying to abort the takeoff could put them in a stickier situation. Wind starts blowing you to the side. You immediately abort the takeoff. Your rudder is becoming less and less effective so you start drifting more. Your nose wheel is fighting for its life trying to find grip on a sopping wet runway but can find any. You have a runway excursion and have to do a buttload of paperwork and explain your thought process of why you aborted.
Or you can do what they did in this video and safely takeoff. I wasn't in the cockpit so I'm not gonna Monday morning quarterback the pilots' thought process but I can say, they got airborn and didn't damage the aircraft so it looks to me like their decision making was just fine.
atooraya@reddit
If you high speed abort a takeoff “before v1” because the winds ticked up 2 knots above limits, you fucked up big time. Especially in these conditions.
Flyingdutch737@reddit
The only way for them to realize the wind being out of (crosswind) limits, would have been the amount of control inputs required to stay on the runway centerline.
Even if they realized or even considered the wind being out of limits, a high speed Rejected Takeoff (especially in strong crosswinds) isn’t always safer than accelerating a few knots extra to rotation speed and getting airborne of the runway and away from obstacles.
martianfrog@reddit
Are the take off limits the same as landing limits? You know, just in case.
TelecomVsOTT@reddit
Ah this is a scarier scenario. Being under the impression that the crosswind is safe and unknowingly walking into a hole.
jlt6666@reddit
As a golfer who's said. "Ah shit, that's long. Oh think that's good actually. Wait, is that gonna be fucking short?" Yeah that shit happens.
SatanicBiscuit@reddit
they all have a weather station on each airport
its like they are kilometers away from the runway
Ok-Championship-4467@reddit
Does it look safe and sound to you? xD
nlcircle@reddit
Cross wind limits are not determined by aircraft design limitations. The aircraft couldn’t care less what the cross wind is.
The POH or POM or in the military ‘the -1’ states verified cross wind limits as determined by the test pilots of the aircraft manufacturer. Based on the vast experience of this test and evaluation team, one should remain modest and stay below thise figures.
Cross wind landing and, to a lesser degree, cross wind T/O’s are an art form for which each pilot should know his own limits. And these limits should definitely be below the recommended cross wind limits from the manual.
Even if highly experienced and well trained up to a year ago, a pilot should be extremely careful and modest to face strong cross winds if not practiced recently.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
Crosswinds are absolutely different for different designs. Reducing crosswind component can be done with higher speed and that affects performance, such as landing distance. Also in order to maintain alignment you need to bank and you can only bank so much before you hit the wing on the ground.
I grant you, it's not a function of aerodynamic design, but different models definitely have different limitations.
nlcircle@reddit
Never said the design wouldn’t respond to cross winds in their own ways. My point was that the limits are not ‘by design’ so inherent to the airframe but ‘by choice’ of the demonstrates cross wind limits by the designer’s test team.
Each and every pilot needs to make his/her own decision for each landing, with the cross wind limits as upper bound. It’s perfectly OK to abort a cross wind landing with winds below the limits if the pilot doesn’t feel up to it.
I also understand aircraft insurers take the x-wind limits as upper bound, so going over these does not guarantee a certain problem (remember: only demonstrated performance) but if something happens, there’s no coverage.
cvnh@reddit
The industry is slowly changing. In the US/Europe, crosswind limits used to be a "recommendation" while in the Russian regulations they were hard limitations. This means it is perfectly fine for a pilot to exceed the limits of the manual if they feel comfortable with it, even not knowing the actual effects. In reality it's a bit more complicated than a pilot can judge from the cockpit, so there's always some uncertainty involved.
More recently, other authorities outside US/EU started requiring limits for special operations and now there is a tendency to adopt limits which will make operation safer, but more restrictive.
Flaky-Painting2471@reddit
No UK airline I’ve worked for has treated crosswind limits as recommendation. They’re limits. Previously gusts weren’t included in the limit, but now gusting is only allowed up to the limits. The only time a pilot would operate outside of limits is when it is justifiable as the safest option.
opotamus_zero@reddit
In my experience the manufacturers crosswind limits are "demonstrated" - meaning a test pilot was able to maintain control with this much wind on a test flight. Doesn't mean a takeoff or landing isn't possible with more wind, just that they didn't have those conditions for the demonstration.
The hard limit comes not from the manufacturer but from the insurance company. So your company will have a hard limit because if you exceed it they're holding the bag.
Flaky-Painting2471@reddit
Totally. Those limits are based on the manufacturer recommended limits, however. They may or may not be the maximum observed by a test pilot, but they are laid down by the manufacturer as recommended limits in their manuals. Airlines and insurers are not likely to exceed something recommended by the manufacturer for obvious liability reasons.
Insurers at different companies do indeed impose further limits, but these are usually that a pilot needs X amount of experience before operating to the limits laid down in the manual.
cvnh@reddit
That's the same as what I've written, the CAA never overruled existing manuals to my knowledge, in the past airlines were free to come up with their operational rules which is a rather weak approach. Limitation in more modern sense means no landing above limits under no circumstances, which is something that is only starting to be implemented. Also means changing how dispatching os l planning will be fine in the future.
Gimme-shelter777@reddit
I’m not sure what the actual wind was doing in this clip but all aircraft have a maximum demonstrated crosswind limit. The limit is there so that they can maintain directional control and stay on the runway for the duration of the takeoff. This looks like it must’ve been pretty close to that limit. Incidentally, the limit is often different for takeoff and landing. The aircraft I fly has a 32kt limit for takeoff but 40kts for landing. When the wind is getting up near the maximum you really need to be assertive with the controls to maintain directional control
JuanGuillermo@reddit
In fly by wire aircrafts such as Airbus etc.. can you really be assertive with the controls? I'm not a pilot but used to work in IT for a carrier and I remember hearing pilots joke about the aircraft not really being responsive in some situations.
Gimme-shelter777@reddit
Fly by wire is more just about how the controls are set up, i.e. there is no direct cable link between the controls in the cockpit and the actual control surfaces. What I mean by assertive though is that you really need to use positive, decisive control inputs and not mess around being sloppy or half hearted. I see some people that are quite timid with how they respond to external factors sometimes.
cat_prophecy@reddit
Does fly-by-wire work in commercial aircraft in the way it does for fighter jets? That is, the control doesn't actually move that much, the response of the plane is directly proportional to how hard/quickly you move the stick. Are Airbus with the side controls also like that, or does the stock move around a lot?
Gimme-shelter777@reddit
Yeah pretty much, the flight laws that are governed by the flight computers do a lot of the work in between the control import and the actual surface deflection. You’d be surprised how little input you need on an airbus to get a response. I came off turboprops before moving to the A330 and during my initial training I was always over controlling because I was used to putting in large inputs to control the aircraft. The funny thing with the airbus sidestick is that if you let it go it returns to a neutral position and so when you for example roll in some bank, you apply the control input and then let the stick centre until you want to roll out. took me awhile to get comfortable with it but it’s pretty good
mikasjoman@reddit
That's what my instructor keeps giving me a "well earned" hard time for. Giving proper amount of input when needed is vital for flying to be safe. No "let's adjust gradually" when you need to kick the rudder.
Nammuinaru@reddit
This is a great answer. I’d just add that wind gusts amplify the challenge of effective crosswind control, takeoff or landing. If you have full rudder in to de-crab on a takeoff roll and a wind gust takes you beyond the limit for your current airspeed, you’re going to drift off centerline. All aircraft I’ve flown require the pilot to add in the gust called by the tower to assume worst case.
The more airspeed you have, the more effective the rudder will be, and the less crosswind control you’ll need. Hence, higher landing crosswind limit. Bank angle is the other limiting factor when close to the ground. You can roll into the wind to maintain centerline, but for example if you only have 18 inches of clearance on your engines, you’re going to scrape a pod or a wingtip.
Flaky-Painting2471@reddit
It looks like the rudder is centralised at the point of lift off, which wouldn’t help in keeping the aircraft tracking the centreline. I’ve not flown the 737, but on other Boeings the recommendation is to lift off with crossed controls (side slip) and slowly neutralise the controls after take off.
suuntasade@reddit
rudder is definitely not centralized, that is the thing that keeps it going "straight". visible in the video.
mnp@reddit
So windward wing should be down? Left looked like it was up instead and close to ground contact on the right.
Flaky-Painting2471@reddit
There should be enough aileron on that side to hold the wing level, some spoiler deflection is also possible depending on the wind strength, but ideally using aileron only to minimise drag.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It's exactly the same on the 737, take off with crossed controls, which enabled wings to remain level and to track the centerline, then gently neutralise them once you are airborne.
cat_prophecy@reddit
That was my first thought: what's the emergency that demands this?
Obviously if you need to land, you need to land some time so crosswind landing is understandable. But to take off into conditions like this seems insane.
Rich-Quote6243@reddit
Exactly. What if they needed to do an air return do to an issue? Certainly not good conditions to be thrust back in to for honestly really no good reason.
ProfPMJ-123@reddit
There are limits specified for each aircraft type, but it's the Pilot In Command who's responsible for deciding if it's safe or not, even if below those limits.
This was a reckless piece of flying.
NippleScream@reddit
Why wouldn’t you take off if the is wind is within limits?
micgat@reddit
There's more to wind than what can be summarized in a single speed and direction. A constant sidewind will be easier to manage than, say, a more gusty wind that is constant changing speed. The weather can complicate things too, like snow or rain in addition to the wind.
plarah@reddit
My worst takeoff was during a “mistral” (i.e. wind that blows from the north with huge gusts) event in southern France.
We could feel the plane moving even when just boarding and finding our seats. The plane took off facing north of course, and it was a bit bumpy. But because there are some mountains not far from the airport in the north, it had to turn, making that wind crosswind.
It was bumpy af. Everybody was white knuckling the seats and armrests and the plane alternated veteran sepulcral silence and panicked gasps.
And then suddenly it stopped once we reached the appropriate altitude.
All this to vent and to say that indeed gusty (cross) wind fucking sucks.
HesSoZazzy@reddit
Thank you for the new word!
plarah@reddit
I actually thought it was written the same in Spanish and English. Turns out it isn’t:
micgat@reddit
I had a similar experience flying into Innsbruck once. Innsbruck has a single runway essentially in an east-west orientation along the valley floor in the middle of the Alps. One December night there was a strong Fön wind, warm winds from the Sahara that hit the Alps from the south. Because of the terrain surrounding the airport we had to fly well past Innsbruck, almost out to Switzerland on a flight from Vienna, before turning back towards the airport and dipping below the mounting peaks. We spent about 30 minutes being pushed around by the turbulent air rolling over the mountains. I lived there for a few years and never experienced anything as rough as that flight.
CaptnHector@reddit
Ya don’t say…
Stoweboard3r@reddit
Sidewind…
ConstructionSafe2814@reddit
I 'm not a pilot at all, but I believe that a pilot should always be allowed not to perform certain actions if he/she's not comfortable doing it. Like landing. If you feel like you can't make it safely to the ground, just do a turnaround and retry. If still you feel unsure do it again. Until you 're comfortable.
I could only assume the same goes for takeoff. If for whatever reason you're uncomfortable taking off, nobody can force you to do so.
(Well, hijackers can but yeah ... )
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
That's a wonderful thought. But I'm pretty sure in the Part 121 world, if it's legal you do it or they let you go.
Several_Leader_7140@reddit
If the wind is well within limits and is not gusting above that limits there is absolutely no reason a pilot should be rejecting the takeoff
LigerSixOne@reddit
The airframes ability to perform and the pilots ability to perform are two separate functions. This takeoff became unsafe when the lowest of each function was exceeded.
Deucer22@reddit
Lol, the plane never leaves the center line, I think the pilot was well within their ability.
LigerSixOne@reddit
What video are you watching? That plane is over the grass before the departure end. That would not pass a private pilot checkride.
NippleScream@reddit
I’d agree but both crew members have been trained with crosswind up to the maximum. Whether the aircraft may have been handled better in this instance, might be true but impossible to know for sure. Either way you wouldn’t expect professionals with appropriate training to say know to a takeoff at a fairly benign airfield when the winds within limits.
LigerSixOne@reddit
Well, honestly, I agree with him. I can clearly see the controls positioned in very inappropriate ways based on the aircraft motions. So I am decently confident that they are not performing well during this takeoff. I have trained hundreds of people in extreme crosswind conditions, performing during training with opportunities to correct your actions and safeties in places, vs real world we’re gonna crash if we do this too badly are very different situations. Do know what they call the person who graduates last in medical school?….Doctor. Half of all pilots are below average.
NippleScream@reddit
I never said it’s a pretty bit of flying, I was referring to the decision to initiate a takeoff in those conditions. There’s a difference between reckless and ‘probably should be flown better’.
I have a solid grasp of how good the average 73 pilot is, I teach them most days of the week - but I have no anxieties about sitting in the back to go on holiday (except a small percentage of well known individuals aside)
ProfPMJ-123@reddit
Because there's 150 people on board.
There's plenty of things that you can do that are "within limits" but you wouldn't do. A 737 will happily do 45 degree bank turns but a pilot with passengers onboard isn't going to do it.
Flaky-Painting2471@reddit
But for commercial air transport the limit isn’t 45 degrees, and the aircraft will shout at the pilot before it gets near 45. There is a difference between what the aircraft can physically do, and the more restrictive limit applied for commercial transport operations.
ProfPMJ-123@reddit
Yes.
And that’s what you see here.
The wind would have been within limits.
There’s no way they should have taken paying passengers on that ride.
Flaky-Painting2471@reddit
The aircraft tracks the centreline sufficiently well. Without other information such as a pilot report, there is no reason why a pilot trained and qualified to fly to the limits wouldn’t depart.
Wind like that isn’t a regular occurrence, and it can be challenging, particularly when gusty. Whilst the aircraft should have tracked the centreline through lift-off, the safety zones around a runway are designed to take drift like this into account.
NippleScream@reddit
Thank you for a sane take
NippleScream@reddit
I still don’t think it’s reasonable to call this reckless, it’s a wind within limits at Newcastle, not exactly Innsbruck or Funchal
Jamaica_Super85@reddit
I presume it's about your experience and what your guts are telling you. You must remember about 150+ people on board whose life depends on your actions.
Shockwave2309@reddit
150+ SOULS, not people ;)
Jamaica_Super85@reddit
Some people are soulless, so you could drop from 150+ people to 100+ souls ...
Shockwave2309@reddit
Nah per statistics there are only 1-2% gingers of all people in the world which would make it ~145 souls.
ABoutDeSouffle@reddit
On every flight, there will be a lo of upper and middle management, though.
Jamaica_Super85@reddit
Ok 😂... But may I ask why are gingers soulless?
Shockwave2309@reddit
Is this your first day on the interwebz?
Ages old joke that gingers are soulless
Jamaica_Super85@reddit
In that case, yeah, it does look like it 🤣
skeptical-speculator@reddit
How can you tell?
Several_Leader_7140@reddit
This comment is complete horseshit. It wasn’t reckless flying at all. And if you refuse to takeoff while winds were within limits good luck keeping a fucking job
BabyNuke@reddit
Yes there a limits, and I would assume the pilots were within said limits or they would not have taken off.
alphazero925@reddit
I gotta say, this is pretty funny to see.
No, it should not be assumed that a pilot will do the correct thing.
BabyNuke@reddit
Sure, but from this video I don't see evidence that they were informed of a crosswind outside of their limits and proceeded anyway.
alphazero925@reddit
That's a different thing entirely from what was being discussed, so I don't know why you're saying that like that has any relevance to the conversation at hand
BabyNuke@reddit
OK
Tronas@reddit
No response with real info so take what you will from the 737-800 manual, (Jet looks like a series before this but the manuals will nit be significantly different, hamds up will accept any comments from actual pilots if the jet in the video) ...
Crosswind Takeoff differences:
Close to, or max thrust, suggested when wind near all crosswind. Rolling start encouraged. As you roll down the runway, limit roll inputs to maintain an approximate wings level indication throughout the takeoff roll.
I see deployment on the keft wing which doesnt make sense to me. Huge crosswind from the left, as speed picks up you 'maintain eings level', this pilot did not.
Limits exist, very clearly, written in black and white in the manual. I cant speak for the limits of this particular jet but I can speak for the lack of roll control by the pilot.
Just trying to input some actual true information.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
There’s a limit and it’s pretty gnarly how high it is. I mean look at it, he handled it just fine.
PilotKnob@reddit
35 knots at our airline, but this is reduced based on runway width and contamination level.
LowEmergencyCaptain@reddit
It worked.
NATORDEN@reddit
74Gear talks about a situation where a biz jet thought it could take off in crosswind situation greater than what the aircraft could manage
Final-Muscle-7196@reddit
That looks like a FO take off.
Wild cross wind.
TheGoalkeeper@reddit
As a passenger, I would have shit myself slightly.
30K100M@reddit
I'd also shit normally.
audio-nut@reddit
As a viewer, I just did.
YebelTheRebel@reddit
I’m shitting as we speak
AgitatedBank6907@reddit
Me too!
allmnt-rider@reddit
Finished?
YebelTheRebel@reddit
Your turn. Don’t forget to say thank you
gitbse@reddit
But have you said thank you?
Ill-Trade-7750@reddit
Godspeed
Loud_Boysenberry_736@reddit
I’m not a fan of the usual landing clapping. But this would be a take off to clap for.
bikemandan@reddit
Hard to imagine any hands not iron gripping armrests
Ecopilot@reddit
Just a slight shitting
--SharkBoy--@reddit
Id rather have shitted pants than a delayed flight
Triquetrums@reddit
your grammar is shit.
IHearYouLimaCharlie@reddit
Yeah, this is reddit; the correct nomenclature is "shidded"
Thornback@reddit
Try that again.
--SharkBoy--@reddit
I said what i said
Upstairs_Balance_464@reddit
You wouldn’t even have known.
ArlenRMcDaniel_Photo@reddit
Geeesus!!!!
cosine-t@reddit
Old news but why is it always KLM...
https://aviationnews-online.com/public/article/klm-royal-dutch-airlines-only-airline-to-land-during-hong-kong-typhoon
SplitEastern7921@reddit
Yeah you need to live in Netherlands to understand... wind it just part of your daily life, if you can cycle through it you can fly through it....😂
cosine-t@reddit
I guess my pilot friend was right then, flying a plane is just like riding a bicycle!
Artess@reddit
Sometimes it's Aerosucre.
A_Swan_Broke_My_Arm@reddit
Sure this was Newcastle (England). If so then I was on the flight before this one, and they closed it after (IIRC)
OldHelicopter256@reddit
Yep. Jonathan Winton, Geordie youtuber.
Homer09001@reddit
rumours have it the winds were over limits and ATC hadn’t given the up to date winds prior to the takeoff
Frosty-Track6792@reddit
But I bet the Geordies still weren't wearing their 'big coat'
oojiflip@reddit
Welcome to Newcastle!
rocket_randall@reddit
Carabao Cup champions init!
donkeykongfingerpain@reddit
Flippin heck!!
benevolent_defiance@reddit
Sheesh!
A_Swan_Broke_My_Arm@reddit
Ruddy Nora!
PlinketyPlinkaPlink@reddit
T-shirt weather that marra!
Toon1982@reddit
I thought it looked like Newcastle
Doggsleg@reddit
I ain’t get tin on that goddamn plain
CassiCatto@reddit
Airport '25; Tokyo Drift
FMC_Speed@reddit
What’s funny is that after landing in such conditions sometimes in the terminal I hear passengers complain about the landing and that it was too rough for their liking
maxmax12629@reddit
May i know which airport is this so i can totally avoid it?
Gus202@reddit
"While we were headed for Spain, the wind decided we're landing in Sweden instead. Have a great flight!"
Independent-Water321@reddit
Light the fires and burn the tires, we are ready for takeoff
rypien2clark@reddit
I think I would be ok with them delaying my flight
anoppe@reddit
KLM REPRESENT
DryRelationship1330@reddit
a takeoff? No. Fake. AI. A US airline would cancel this flight for less than 1/2 this much wind/rain. BS.
av8geek@reddit
Pussy.
Odd_Examination2732@reddit
Nope
Hilsam_Adent@reddit
"Everything is evolving toward Crab" - the Internet
Same_Ambassador_5780@reddit
It appears as though the pilot neutralised the controls too soon which resulted in the drifting off the runway at low altitude.
Every aircraft needs "aileron into wind", particularly during a take-off with a strong crosswind - essentially the left wing in this video will produce more lift that the right wing due to the crosswind, left aileron input will counter this roll moment (you can see the roll spoilers momentarily deploy during the take off roll on the left wing).
Also, the airplane has a tendency to weather cock into wind due to the horizontal stabiliser - the pilots must put in right rudder to maintain the runway centreline.
Thus as they rotate, the pilot should have "crossed controls" (left aileron/ right rudder) in order to track along the centerline. Once airborne they gradually neutralize the controls and the aircraft enters a crab, which is not what they did here.
la_toxica899999@reddit
I’m curious, why would they want a cross control when rotating?
Same_Ambassador_5780@reddit
Left aileron to counter the right roll moment due to the crosswind, and right rudder to counter the left yaw moment in order to maintain the runway centerline. The aircraft's natural tendency is weather cock into wind - in this case, it wants to weather cock left.
Thus at rotation, the controls should be "crossed" in a crosswind, or in other words a sideslip. Within a few moments, the pilot gradually neutralises the controls as the aircraft enters a crab, ideally tracking along the centerline as it climbs away.
la_toxica899999@reddit
The tendency to weather vane is present when the aircraft is airborne but on the ground if the pilot were to apply right rudder they would go off the runway. The wind from the left is already pushing the aircraft to the right so if they applied right rudder it would aggravate the movement to the right.
Same_Ambassador_5780@reddit
You can see in this video - they have varying degrees of right rudder applied as they accelerate, and that input is there until rotation. They also have left aileron input (roll spoilers deployed on left wing), but I suspect they neutralised the both inputs too early which lead to a low altitude drift over to the grass.
I'm also talking from experience.
I've 10,000 hours flying experience: 7000hrs on heavy's, 3000hrs on mediums, a few hundred on light aircraft.
la_toxica899999@reddit
I’m sure you do, keep going with that technique
Same_Ambassador_5780@reddit
I sure will.
I simply replied to your query, which I thought was a genuine query but it is now evident you want to prove some point.
la_toxica899999@reddit
My confusion comes from wondering why you would pretend to be an expert on something when you have a fundamental misunderstanding of it
DavidLaRose@reddit
This take off was at the pilot’s discretion, and he chose to risk life and limb of the passengers all for what!
Loose-cannon1954@reddit
I have been a 737 captain for 29 years. I have departed in limiting crosswinds many times and never had the upwind wing lift like that. Or been unable to track the runway centreline.
NoOil2864@reddit
Pffff.... Amateur.
What's the big deal? You just pedal-to-the-metal that thing and then pull up
Loose-cannon1954@reddit
Shhh! You’re giving away trade secrets!
Cpt_Soban@reddit
"Push throttle up, pull joystick down, no problem"
SavoryRhubarb@reddit
How close to catastrophe were they? Or does this look worse than it is?
dingman58@reddit
This is about as close as you can get without tapping a wing into the ground. Skilled pilot for sure, but those winds could have gusted too hard at the wrong time and this would've turned out poorly
ChaoticCanine@reddit
Ryanair?
Safety2-kvfd-@reddit
That’s a whole lotta nope!
DepartmentMajestic77@reddit
Woah!
Hammer-663@reddit
Little windy, eh?
InnerBreath2884@reddit
How could he even take off with the massive balls of his?
Sufficient_Depth_195@reddit
Looks reckless to me. In other words, more stupid than brave.
Taking unnecessary risks with the lives of scores of other people's loved ones.
I'm not a fan.
FNDFT@reddit
Are you an expert or some shit? I’d trust the pilots who have years of training and experience over an armchair reddit comment
InnerBreath2884@reddit
Right. Should've cancelled the flight
SuperOriginalName23@reddit
You weren't in the cockpit that day.
Vast-Charge-4256@reddit
Probably a lady pilot...
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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nuapadprik@reddit
Well past abort speed/distance.
panlevap@reddit
Note to myself: take a spare piece of underwear in the carry on, just in case.
manseekingmemes@reddit
Cancel my flight.
Ghost_Reborn416@reddit
Why would you risk taking off in that!
RBeck@reddit
Time to switch operations to the perpendicular runway.
CrappyTan69@reddit
KLM34, Turn left, runway heading.
bereft_of_me@reddit
"Unable"
CrappyTan69@reddit
Trying. My. Hardest.
IctrlPlanes@reddit
Runway heading vs track are two different things. This is why when flying at high altitudes we rarely assign a head but we use 10, 15, 20 degrees left/right. If we do assign a heading we will normally ask for their current heading first. One day it will be a 090 heading the next it will be 120.
BeanRaider@reddit
Shoutout to downlinked mode s parameters so now I can already see what the pilot is doing in the cockpit and go off that
Tchocky@reddit
"confirm maintaining 260 knots or less"
"Yes, we're doing that"
Click click
"Looks a lot like 285 from here "
"Uhhhhhhh"
rckid13@reddit
You guys get to see in real time how bad our auto throttle actually is. I'll definitely set 280 knots, but what the automation actually decides is acceptable seems to change from plane to plane.
Tchocky@reddit
Generally we can tell when that's happening.
If we really need those extra couple of knots then it's our fault.
If, like a certain European carrier, you enjoyed flying 747s at 295KIAS into your home airport while being restricted to 260, you will hear a different tone of voice
IctrlPlanes@reddit
Laughs in American, we just started getting down linked pilot requests and they won't even let us turn on silent check ins.
Then_Bar8757@reddit
Vastly underrated comment.
Flightwise@reddit
For a moment I thought you were referring to Tenerife, but that was KLM 4805.
ROBsINtheHOOD@reddit
Stupid idea to take off on that runway under those conditions. Passengers expect pilots to exercise sound judgment and decision making. This was neither. The pilots we very lucky to get away with it and undoubtedly their Chief Pilot had words with them.
Guardsred70@reddit
This is why I just read my book as a passenger.
Just curious from the people who know more than me…. Is this just a case where it only looks bad but the plane just has so much thrust that it’s going to generate lift and you just power thru it?
Or do you have really serious issues with the crosswind across the wings taking away lift or changing the roll of the plane and putting one/both wings surfaces into a stall?
Also….who did this video? The pilot behind?
4rch1t3ct@reddit
Basically. The issue with crosswinds isn't one of lift, but if the crosswinds are too high you have to crab like you can see in the video. This is usually fine on landing, it's not something you normally see during takeoff.
That's not really an issue because the crosswinds are still coming from the front of the plane, so you shouldn't lose any lift unless the wind dies out. It's more about being able to keep the wheels straight going down the runway, at a certain wind speed and crosswind component you will be unable to keep the plane going straight down the runway. You do have to worry about the winds changing the attitude of the aircraft but that's what the pilots are trained for.
A planespotter on the ground off the end of the runway.
Guardsred70@reddit
Cool. Thanks. I took fluid dynamics as an undergrad over 30 years ago, so find lift fascinating. It looks really fussy to fly a plane. :)
iguana-pr@reddit
I guess from ATC clearance "Clear for take off, maintain runway heading" is out of the question :)
lakebistcho@reddit
Holy hell
NMorphey@reddit
New takeoff just dropped
fillikirch@reddit
Lots of right ruddder but not enough left aileronn
Cedo263@reddit
Had to scroll too far for this
moon__lander@reddit
It better not
Solitary_Aviator@reddit
Actual departure
Ardbeg66@reddit
Hey now, let's keep it clean.
"Whoa... flippin heck..."
upturned2289@reddit
Ahh sheeeeesh. Flippin’ heck!
magwo@reddit
Negative. Flippin heck is the correct term
Asskickulator@reddit
Whew. Watch the language.
airpab1@reddit
Would any commercial pilot reading this attempt a takeoff in these conditions?
sokratesz@reddit
They were off the tarmac way before they were off the tarmac!
Intrepid_Pear8883@reddit
Did this in Detroit one time. They had alarms all over calling it a stage 5 wind or something. People running around trying things down kind of wind.
We were on the runway and it was bouncing the plane - I didn't think we'd takeoff but we did.
Got in the air and we were flying sideways. Only time I've seen people really freak out on a plane. Crying screaming you name it.
Was pretty wild. You could feel the plane slipping when it got up to speed. It was like we were floating sideways once off the ground.
TheRedEarl@reddit
I’d need to take off my underwear after that one
Alexius6th@reddit
I like how it suddenly turns into a kite. I’m sure the passengers on board also appreciated this.
on3day@reddit
Wonder if they really noticed. You basically go with flow.
sixsacks@reddit
They all felt that in their junk
kpidhayny@reddit
The Great >!Testicle!< Recession
skelocog@reddit
I was on a plane during a takeoff like this, in a blizzard in Baltimore. After de-icing for like an hour we decided to go for it. The whole plain went diagonal before liftoff and the all passengers collectively groaned in horror. It was awful.
primetimey123@reddit
You can't be serious.
dodo91@reddit
You would feel this easily - i have taken off at far lower winds than this and the ascendance was hell
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
The pilot was probably more appreciative.
It meant he stop clenching his seat quite so hard. Though the resulting crease in the seat is probably permanent
Forgotthebloodypassw@reddit
I love British planespotters - imaging weather like that and suggesting heading out to the airport for some fun.
Pangea_Ultima@reddit
Flippin heck for realz… oh my word!
kk074@reddit
When they tell you 26L but you wanted 26R
doomiestdoomeddoomer@reddit
Standard takeoff from Stornoway Scotland :P
Mysterious-Engine166@reddit
If I'm inside that plane, you won't be able to talk to me for a while. I'll be processing.
bluenosepittie@reddit
Processing? I’d be shitting bricks 😅
Gunsh0t@reddit
Turn on the audio if you want to know what country it’s in
kluthage421@reddit
Flippin' heck!!!
LottieDotti@reddit
I don’t need to get anywhere that bad
MrPBH@reddit
What if bae texted you that her parents just left the house and won't be home for the next three hours?
Shilts8791@reddit
Nope. Get me off.
Alert-Gas-5826@reddit
Flippin' heck 😇
RemarkableBoss2208@reddit
Holy crap
VZ_from-planet-Earth@reddit
Plane is full of shitload
blastcat4@reddit
Is there any chance a situation like this can cause a compressor stall?
SimpleManc88@reddit
Never seen a crab takeoff before lol.
PessimisticBeliever@reddit
Right, plenty of landings, this is the first crabbing takeoff I've seen.
froughty@reddit
Same!
mybusiness322@reddit
Hello, hell no
AbleRelationship5287@reddit
Airport designers b like “let’s point the runway this way to keep things interesting”. I know a huge number of factors go into airport design and runway headings, but I feel like some airports are notorious for their cross wind conditions.
Sowhataboutthisthing@reddit
Looks like a great day to stay home.
ECircus@reddit
Gonna need some new tires after that one.
GLIBG10B@reddit
What happens if the wind disappears, and airspeed becomes equal to groundspeed? Does it just fall out of the sky?
StigHunter@reddit
GA pilot here, do Airliners/Airlines not have maximum crosswind component requirements???
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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hydrobuilder@reddit
I will never need to get somewhere that badly
2032_Throwaway@reddit
I thought that the CC at 5 seconds was rather interesting.
That must have been an interesting experience for the passengers sitting closest to the rear of the aircraft.
brantmacga@reddit
"babe come over "
->"sorry the airport here is closed for weather "
"may parents are gone"
danktonium@reddit
"Amsterdam Departure, KL215 declaring emergency. We have no clean pants on board, I repeat, no clean pants. Request fuel dump and immediate return."
MonsieurReynard@reddit
Means landing back into the same crosswinds.
i_never_ever_learn@reddit
You kiss your mother with that mouth?
cash8888@reddit
Is it me or does it seem like the aviation industry is just like fuck it
NotNeverdnim@reddit
Fake. This is reversed.
TheCatOfWar@reddit
So it landed flying backwards?
NotNeverdnim@reddit
Yes
TheCatOfWar@reddit
Not to be rude but that's a dumb take lol, it's clearly real and not reversed. What you're suggesting makes zero sense and also the spray from the wheels is moving outwards not inwards.
NotNeverdnim@reddit
That's because in order to land backwards, the engine has to spin in reverse sucking up the water on the runway.
Practical-Object-827@reddit
Was the captain listening to Billie Jean?
NotNeverdnim@reddit
Yes, in fact he was transmitting the song to the frequency while landing.
Artess@reddit
I'm pretty sure he was making a joke there.
TheCatOfWar@reddit
hard to tell, it wasn't funny
Substantial-Animal16@reddit
R/woosh
HurlingFruit@reddit
Departure: Climb and maintin runway heading.
Pilot: Unable.
vghouse@reddit
They are flying runway heading, it’s the track thats not straight.
HurlingFruit@reddit
They have drifted way tf downwind. But they are doing a better job than I am at spelling.
vghouse@reddit
Yeah that has nothing to do with heading
liberty88887@reddit
I’m not sure how much of that was flying, or letting the wind do what it wants!
Worksux36g@reddit
Airplane drifting... deja-vu intensifies
exbex@reddit
$100 says that was the go home leg.
Prohawins@reddit
I thought flying was all about safety you should absolutely not be taken off with those winds
olddoglearnsnewtrick@reddit
Just get those rubbers off the damn tarmac and you’re fine ;)
RiteousRhino21@reddit
I thought planes shouldn't even taxi if the winds exceed 35kts. This is clearly more
MikeInPajamas@reddit
"Fly runway heading"
"Unable."
ICanButIDontWant@reddit
It will never happen. Heading ≠ track.
MikeInPajamas@reddit
He wasn't tracking runway heading either... he was tracking right.
ICanButIDontWant@reddit
But he wasn't supposed to keep runway track. He was supposed to keep the runway heading. Pilots shouldn't take corrections for wind, when he maintains runway heading. It's for parallel departures safety.
It is explained here with sources, just for example: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/should-you-fly-runway-heading-or-runway-centerline-on-takeoff-vfr/
MikeInPajamas@reddit
Oh that's interesting. Thanks for the correction!
ICanButIDontWant@reddit
No problem. I guess you're not a pilot or controller, so just to clarify, as this is kind of a common misconception for people not "in the business": heading means direction in which aircraft nose is pointing to, and track is direction in which it actually moves.
IAmARobot@reddit
pre-getthereitis
-burnr-@reddit
"Aileron into wind? Never heard of her" - that pilot probably
niamulsmh@reddit
oddly i've not seen a crosswind takeoff before.. thanks for the share
SavingsDimensions74@reddit
In general, airplanes should behave like boats
Give_me_your_bunnies@reddit
😆
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
Oh I thought it was my turn to repost this.
Impressive-Square617@reddit
Putting everyone’s life in danger!
KuzcoEmp@reddit
Is that tui?
BearBeginning5643@reddit
Most 737 pilots (and others) use too little aileron input. Keep the horizon level!!
itsaride@reddit
That looked extremely touch and go, the right wing seemed to be within seconds of hitting the runway but what do I know. IANAP
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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BlaxeTe@reddit
I can see a huge lack of corrective aileron which would’ve made this look much safer. It’s a problem I can see on the line daily in my airline. People using zero to non crosswind correction for takeoffs. While this guy used some aileron, he should’ve used much more.
j1mb0j1mm0@reddit
Inside the plane it should have been like a washing machine 😲
BlackAndStrong666@reddit
Ai
TheCatOfWar@reddit
Why do you go around reddit commenting Ai on random posts that aren't remotely AI generated
Artess@reddit
Negative karma farming? Trolling? A dumb bot?
Loc72@reddit
Fly runway heading
Artess@reddit
Unable.
radu_rc90@reddit
I wonder if you know How they live in Tokyo
Nok1a_@reddit
I flew once from Bournemouth and as soon the play was rotating just tilted to the right, inside me being on the left of the plane felt like we will flip over and more becuase was out of the blue, a gust of wind, fuck that men so awful feeling, and probably was just 2-3deg of inclination but felt like 45 xd
CrappyTan69@reddit
My censna 150, I can stop, turn left, and take off along the width of the runway. #versatile
legrenabeach@reddit
At what point (wind strength vs engine power) does the wind become able to go so strongly against the plane that the plane can't actually 'go' in the heading the pilots need it to go?
Koffieslikker@reddit
Some small planes can fly "slow" enough to fly backwards relative to the ground, but not a commercial airliner
SuperOriginalName23@reddit
Never, on this planet.
Massive-Morning2160@reddit
Neh bro, I'd rather scream bomb and do some jail than die of heart attack
Novacc_Djocovid@reddit
As a layman that seems rather questionable… 🫣
yajobis@reddit
Just by the fact, that there has been much much crazier take-offs blows my mind. I love the harsh turbulence, but when it comes the time to take-offs it make me a little nervous even though I'm taking place in aviation. Maybe someone has a video from their own experiences?
Willing_Nectarine_72@reddit
As a pilot, we train for this, but there's definitely a point where it's no longer safe and they'll close the runway. That Geordie commentary in the original video is the perfect soundtrack to this kind of wild takeoff. It's a serious maneuver, but hearing that "KLM34, runway heading" call over the radio just adds to the surreal vibe of the whole situation.
AbleArcher420@reddit
Nah they're just filming Fast & Furious 87: Kansai Drift
koinai3301@reddit
Just needs a little rudder:-!
RepresentativeNo7802@reddit
"Geez flipping heck".... my thoughts exactly.
fanofairplanes@reddit
So much for holding the centerline haha
Karma_1969@reddit
Imagine being a passenger and experiencing that takeoff inside the cabin…yikes.
doigal@reddit
Takeoffs are always optional.
corvus66a@reddit
V2 . Rotate ! No, not this direction .
funkmon@reddit
Flippin heck is right
EffektieweEffie@reddit
Oh fuck that
ChampionParking9256@reddit
The funny part is that they have permission to fly in long distances.
jawshoeaw@reddit
Oh yeah well once I took off in a 172 with a 15 kt crosswind
PleasantGuide@reddit
You mean a Cessna 172? My late father used to fly one, had some fun times in that plane.
jawshoeaw@reddit
That’s the one! Solid little plane
Bumpercars415@reddit
That is pretty crazy.
CalmWillingness5739@reddit
Do they inform passengers before something like this , some afraid of flying could get a heart attack
BlueDotty@reddit
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!
Queasy-Broccoli-6869@reddit
Is there a longer version? Flippin heck indeed
gorram1mhumped@reddit
i get crazy unnerved when the plane starts rocking back n forth on take off. this... oh man.
Aggravating_Speed665@reddit
"YOU CALL
THISA ~~STORM~~ SIDEWIND?!"swift1883@reddit
Would totally fly with Lt. Dan.
Hé just needs to bring a rudder guy.
bevipop@reddit
Flippin' heck is right!
SpoiledKoolAid@reddit
please! this is a family channel!
I chuckled at his words.
caughtinthought@reddit
Aren't there like instruments that suggest this isn't a great idea
CocaColai@reddit
Jesus. They really wanted to keep the perfect “on time” score for the airline
AnonHKG@reddit
Good things this wasn’t. KSFO.
AlarmDozer@reddit
Damn, someone has really big balls.
2Short2Thrust@reddit
That doesn’t look safe
youlikeblockingsodoi@reddit
lol bro almost landed at the next airport
Hot_Raise_8540@reddit
Wow! 😲