Displaced MD-11 Pilots

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AttentionNo8205@reddit

Md11 shoudnt have been grounded im sure it was poor maintenance practices by ups

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latedescent@reddit

As a UPS guy, I hope it never returns.

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LootenantTwiddlederp@reddit

Former UPS guy.

The MD-11s were always broken. UPS was slated to retire them a long time ago due to maintenance issues, but kept them because deliveries of new aircraft were trickling slowly.

The MD-11 itself from what I heard is a mofo to land. It has a high approach speed and landing in any crosswind is very challenging.

For MD as a company, everything wrong with Boeing today can be traced to the McDonnell-Douglas leadership that took over during the merger. They prioritized the bottom line over safety, and Boeing quality as suffered as a result.

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84Cressida@reddit

UPS has never published an MD-11 final retirement and never deferred one. They took one several LH MD-11s just 4 years ago, including the last one built.

As for Boeing, a common cope from the Boeing fanboys but not reality. It’s been nearly 30 years since that merger. None of the people in charge had anything to do with MD and the CEO post-merger was Phil Condit, who was one of the lead engineers on the 777.

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LootenantTwiddlederp@reddit

UPS Never published, no. But they did tell us as a pilot group what the plans originally were and why the MD-11 is still in the fleet.

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Mike__O@reddit

Because it's a shitty, overrated airplane. It has its die-hards and for the life of me I can't understand why.

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latedescent@reddit

Exactly. The plane continues to kill people and the fan boys vouch for it cause "rah rah 3 holer"

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Nyaos@reddit

It’s my understanding that at FedEx and ups they’re simply having the pilots bid reserve lines with the assumption they’re not flying and will get paid for whatever their minimum reserve guarantee is.

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abb82898@reddit

They’re still bidding for flying. They haven’t cancelled all MD-11 flights because no one knows when/if the MDs will come back up so, the company is only taking it a week at a time.

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Mike__O@reddit

My airline has cancelled MD-11 flights through no earlier than Feb. Dec had already been awarded, and those lines have been cancelled. Jan will be all reserve lines with no duty requirements to actually sit/be available for reserve until further notice.

My gut says the MD-11 is dead and never coming back

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t-poke@reddit

If the MD-11 is indeed never coming back, what happens to the remaining planes that are currently parked around the world? Will they get flown to the desert after some thorough inspections, or scrapped wherever they currently are?

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Mike__O@reddit

Depends. Ideally (for operators) they at least get approval to fly them to the boneyard instead of paying to have them disposed of in place

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Ecthelion-O-Fountain@reddit

They will absolutely ferry permit every single one of these. On a case by case basis if necessary.

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Mike__O@reddit

I think you're right. They'd probably scavenge the boneyard to find parts if necessary. It's incredibly expensive to scrap an airplane at a place that's not designed to scrap airplanes. Look how long that [former] American Airllines 767 sat in Chicago while they sorted out all the insurance and other issues

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xyz19606@reddit

Has anybody given an over/under on MD-11 coming back? How many are there, and how many of them would need to be replaced with another airframe vs. the route being retired; that type of analysis. Also, I wonder how long that decision goes on, if the investigation and rulings drag on. When do they cut bait and make that decision?

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xyz19606@reddit

MD-11 fleet grounding after UPS crash unlikely to end before 2026, source says - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/md-11-fleet-grounding-after-ups-crash-unlikely-end-before-2026-source-says-2025-11-26/?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=6927b7c2e171010001f8c15e&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky

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Mike__O@reddit

I've fed all available data into Grok, both public and internal stuff. Grok says 85-90% chance the MD-11 never returns to revenue service.

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mach1alfa@reddit

I don’t think it’s helpful nor useful to ask any LLM and copy their output since all they do is guess what word comes behind another and doesn’t possess the capability to understand anything

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Bshaw95@reddit

Seems like they may have located the failure point on the crash airframe. Not sure how easy it’ll be to repair/replace that part on other units but maybe it’ll allow for an expedited safe return.

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scottydg@reddit

At this point they know what happened, it appears to be a fatigue failure in the aft pylon mount. I would guess that all MD-11s are getting this part very intensively checked for any and all cracking, and likely replaced as a precautionary measure. That particular frame had over 20k cycles, certainly a lot, but it's worth checking every plane out there, and that will take a while.

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Nyaos@reddit

Thanks. The info I got was for FedEx so I’m not sure what UPS is doing. FedEx has at least cancelled all flights through December.

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timelessblur@reddit

Would fed ex and ups basically be forced to retrain them to a new type in their fleet.

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McDentedMyTruck@reddit

The company can increase or reduce the number of pilots as they choose. If they don’t need anymore pilots for their existing aircraft, the company wouldn’t be forced to train the MD-11 pilots to other types just because. If they were going to furlough pilots, it is not the MD-11 pilots who would be let go, it would be the most junior pilots company wide, regardless of fleet. If the company purchases more aircraft and needs more pilots to fill those seats, the MD-11 pilots may have an opportunity to train in those aircraft. More likely however, pilots company wide could bid for that new airframe. If an MD-11 pilot was senior enough to fill that seat, they would. If they were not senior, they would fill the seat of a more senior pilot who chose to train in that new airframe.

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GarfieldLeZanya-@reddit

How long does it take a more senior pilot to train a new airframe? I mean, wouldn't the fact they are experienced pilots reduce that learning time compared to some new person off the street? I know there's differences and they cant just hop into the seat and full send, but are we talking a few weeks or few years here?

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GodOfPlutonium@reddit

the process youre describing is called type rating. it has a fixed curriculum of theoretical schooling and set hours of time in a simulator, and usually takes on the order of months

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Mike__O@reddit

No, that's not how airline training works. You have a pretty strict timeline. You WILL learn what you need to learn in the time allotted. This isn't GA bullshit school where you just get as many extra rides as you can afford. You might get more me or two extra sims if you're struggling, but if that doesn't do it, you're gone.

It's really not a problem when you're in the position to fly an airplane like an MD11. At that level you're used to professional training programs and the requirements that go with them

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curiousengineer601@reddit

Is this weeks? Months? How many hours?

How many simulation sessions?

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Mike__O@reddit

Depends on the airline and the specific training program, but generally somewhere around 6-8 weeks total. 10-15 sims, zero flights.

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swakid8@reddit

Slight correction, there’s flights (OE flying with a LCA).

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Mike__O@reddit

True, but those are basically OJT on revenue flights. You're not going out and beating up the pattern in a 737

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swakid8@reddit

Yes, you are still technically in training and fall under the training department jurisdiction while on OE.

They are still training flights in reality. There items that have to be completed before being eligible to get line checked (ex. conducting a autoland, etc).

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curiousengineer601@reddit

Thanks, today I learned how something works.

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Asleep-Iron1025@reddit

Regardless of experience, a transition to a new airplane is about 2 months of training. It is a set program of CBT, ground school, sim rides and OE. By the time you get to that level of experience it’s all part of the job.

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SubarcticFarmer@reddit

Neither FedEx or UPS would be able to force the MD-11 pilots to go to specific airframes as they are both unionized. They would have to displace the MD-11 pilots, at which point they can go anywhere that someone junior to them is. Chances are slim that all the MD-11 pilots, and no senior pilots on other airframes, would bid for a new airframe.

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Boeing367-80@reddit

This kind of thing does happen from time to time.

After 9/11, huge fleets of older aircraft were retired - 727s, MD-80s, first generation 737s, Fokker 100s, whatever old or odd-ball stuff was still hanging around. It all went.

What happened was a massive cascading series of training events in the legacy carriers. A 727 captain becomes a 767 F.O. in turn displacing a 767 F.O. into a 737 F.O. etc.

To the extent the MD-11s end up permanently grounded (and we don't know yet) a much smaller scale version of this will happen, depending on the details of how seniority-driven bidding works at the two carriers.

MD-11 pilots are entitled to minimums, but some will want to get back to flying and if their contract gives them the ability to bid into other types due to their seniority, they can take advantage of that. The contract rules.

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SippsMccree@reddit

I think they'd do it willingly if need be, pilots are an aging demographic with not enough people entering the career field to make up for the looming retirements

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Nyaos@reddit

I’m not exactly sure what their contract says but it’s probably similar to my airline. If the Md-11 stays out of service for good they’ll do some sort of displacement bid where all the pilots, probably airline wide have to rebid their platform. So the Md-11 pilots would bid for whatever new plane they want to go to.

So naturally if you’re on the 747 at UPS you’d rebid 747. But after the senior pilots get their seats, any junior pilots left over could be furloughed.

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Moose135A@reddit

And until there is a final determination, or at least a path to inspect/repair airframes, they aren't going to retrain these folks on something else, only to have the MDs back down the road.

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VerStannen@reddit

So the pilots get their guarantee until they’re back in the air, right?

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Moose135A@reddit

Yes, probably whatever their minimum guarantee is.

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VerStannen@reddit

Ok thanks Moose.

I’m glad the union pilots have those protections in place.

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Imlooloo@reddit

UPS has 26 MD-11s and let’s say there are 6-10 pilots and FO per plane on average to cover flights and off time. That’s 156-260 pilots and FO in total affected by this ground stop. At the max number that’s <$1M a week in salary going out.

FedEx revenues are something like $260M/day or roughly $1,820M a week. They can afford to pay them the minimums for the pilots to sit around and do administrative or office work as needed. I feel bad for them but having flown for years myself, my butt would pucker slightly less on rotation knowing the engines were going to hang with us the duration of the flight so I’d be happy to sit around a bit while they figured this out permanently.

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pilot_96@reddit

I don’t know, but don’t call me Shirley

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Ok-Pomegranate8977@reddit

At fedex we are getting paid whatever we bid in December to not fly. So if you had trips they will drop. If you have reserve you just stay home.

Union and company are currently engaged on what to do for January since there is no know flying. So far I’m up to 170 credit hours paid to sit at home!

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Dont_crossthestreams@reddit

Hell ya

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restingsurgeon@reddit

Besides pilots, are a bunch of other workers who load, fuel, maintain the planes losing work?

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UNDR08@reddit

Western Global furloughed from what i understand.

I doubt the FedEx or UPS guys will be.

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Fatal_Explorer@reddit

It's mind blowing for me that this is legal, but I'm also but from the US... That's why you all need strong unions that push for labour laws

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ClassIINav@reddit

What exactly are you expecting here? WGA isn't exactly top tier but with 2/3 of their planes grounded they're all lucky if the airline doesn't completely fold from this.

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Fatal_Explorer@reddit

What I am expecting, is that humans are the last thing to let go. If they don't have cash stacks, then sell off assets, buildings, engines, planes or whatever. Turn things into money. If they are fully out of money, start letting go of only the highest paid people (management).

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UglyInThMorning@reddit

sell off assets, buildings, engines, planes or whatever

In the case of WGA, a non-trivial amount of those assets are MD-11’s and the equipment to maintain them. Not exactly a hot commodity even before the crash.

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pholling@reddit

You do the above and you quickly end up with no-one employed. Sell the hardware, which would either be as scrap or the aircraft that are actually flying, you don’t need anyone to fly; that is if you actually own them. Lay off management or other key folks and you quickly get into a position where you don’t meet your licensing requirements. Unless you are way out of wack you have to get rid of a lot of folks to cover the pilots wages and lost revenue.

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Fatal_Explorer@reddit

Sell off the 3 engines of one single plane only, and you are good with wages for months. Also other countries have regulations like special part time furlough. Means people get sent home, government pays 60% of their wage while employer in struggle pays like 30%, so no one needs to get fired or go hungry.

This happened during covid in many of the better countries. People stayed home, often were actually been send on training or further qualification and were still employed and getting paid. What happened in the US is NOT normal.

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Ok-Cut8740@reddit

Whatever you do, never enter into any leadership position at a business. What you’re describing is a sure way to bankrupt a company. You have to plan for the future, which is exactly what they did. It’s unfortunate but that’s reality.

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biggsteve81@reddit

To sell the engines off you need the plane to be at a boneyard. Otherwise at some point you would have to re-engine the plane to fly it out of wherever it currently sits.

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Mike__O@reddit

This is the reason Europe is economically stagnant.

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PlaneguyA350@reddit

Airlines in the EU also furloughed employees, what are you talking about?

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portrowersarebad@reddit

“Better” countries, but somehow too dumb to figure out that destroying your entire business short term is a horrible idea long term. Yeah, that sounds right…

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penelopiecruise@reddit

And when everything is sold off where is the business plant and equipment left to restart in a few months?

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1046737@reddit

78% of their fleet is grounded, quite possibly permanently, and there is zero chance of replacing those tails on anything approaching the short to medium term. If they don't furlough, they would certainly be bankrupted and then no one has a job (which is a likely outcome, anyways). Doesn't matter how strong the labor laws are, you can't get blood from a stone.

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biggsteve81@reddit

They have a union, but have been in negotiations for an initial CBA since 2021.

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Mike__O@reddit

What Western Global did likely isn't legal. They faced an existential situation for their company and decided it was worth it to risk legal consequences.

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vctrmldrw@reddit

I don't know anywhere, even the most progressive European countries, where redundancy doesn't happen.

In most modern countries there needs to be a fair process and a minimum payoff, but if their job no longer exists then they can't be employed forever.

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ThrowAwayColor2023@reddit

Sorry that other USian was so abrasive in responding to you. You’re absolutely right, but people here in the US have been spoon-fed corporate capitalism since birth and defend it reflexively.

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Fatal_Explorer@reddit

Thanks. Yeah kinda shocking to see often people defend things that are not defendable

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Odd-Delivery4170@reddit (OP)

Man that’s brutal, any clue how many people were part of that furlough?

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Long term - yes, their company will make them bid and tarin on something else.

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