Landing lights during cruise?
Posted by Emoneysum@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 112 comments
Does the A320 have lights that mimic landing lights? Or are there times when pilots forget to turn them off? It seems like they are landing lights cause they are the same lights turned on just before takeoff and remained on even at 37,000 feet. Just curious! Thank you!
dontbenoseyplease@reddit
These look like wing lights, I could be wrong though.
YMMV25@reddit
Wing inspection lights. Typically used for ice detection, though I’m not sure how much wing you can see from the flight deck of an A320. Possible they just got left on by accident.
Phillimac16@reddit
The Flight Attendants can take a peek and report back to the pilots.
YMMV25@reddit
What flight crew is relying on cabin crew to report ice condition on the wings?
Not saying it never happens, but I can't imagine a typical cabin crew being able to provide reliable information on this.
BlowCheese@reddit
Hi.
A320 pilot here. Most of the cabin crew have cellphones. In this scenario I'd ask them to very discretely take a photo from the window of the wing. The window they need to go to has a black triangle over it.
On the a320 the wing is visible from the cockpit, on the a321 it's not.
Personal_Guess_1937@reddit
May I ask… I thought ice couldn’t really form on wings during cruise because the wings are warm/heated up from the inside during the flight. And I thought the flight deck always had ice on wing indicators. When can ice actually form on wings during cruise? From now on I will have a peak now and then as a passenger 😂.
BlowCheese@reddit
Most certainly!
While the leading edge of the wing may be slightly warmer than the rest of the aircraft due to air friction ( sometimes upwards of 25°C) it's not persistently actively heated. This is normally done by the pilots selecting "wing anti ice" on in the cockpit. This takes hot compressed air from the engines and ducts it to the wing leading edge.
As you can imagine this saps a lot of performance from the engines, burns extra fuel and increases engine wear. So we leave it off until we detect ice. As such ice can build up in any phase of flight, however Airbus have concluded that it is highly unlikely to form in temperatures below -40°C.
Ice detection on an A320 is purely visual by the flight crew. We have no automatic or electronic ice detection mechanisms like on a turboprop or piston aircraft. We have an ice detector probe, which as best as I can describe is a "nipple" type probe in between the windscreens. It's lit so we can see what it picks up at night.
Personal_Guess_1937@reddit
Thank you so much for explaining! I really appreciate that! I love aviation and the more I know, the more I like it, but also the more comfortable I feel on a plane.
I was recently cruising above Iceland and Greenland and noticed it was -60 C outside. Will pilots more actively be on the lookout for ice on the wings in such conditions? Thank you so much
BlowCheese@reddit
Absolutely my pleasure, always refreshing when people take an interest in the industry rather than treating it like a travel necessity.
So as alluded to earlier, for my aircraft type and manufacturer, they state no significant icing can occur at less than -40C. This is due to any moisture in that low temperature range already being turned to solid ice. It will not stick to any aircraft surface, rather it just bounces off. At the altitudes we fly at to encounter those temperatures it's unlikely there is any significant moisture, this is more relevant to engine anti ice than airframe, however the concept applies in totality to the aircraft.
As always however, there are exceptions: Thunderstorms! Thunderstorms are bad and weird. They will introduce high levels of moisture and warm air at very very high altitudes. Likewise different aircraft types and manufacturers have different triggers and procedures for icing than Airbus and my particular company. For context, we have a 400 page manual purely dedicated to ice, and cold weather operations! Others maybe more or less...
joeykins82@reddit
Well TIL what the black triangle above the window of the A321 is for!
Stoney3K@reddit
There's no A320 variants with cameras?
DoctorMurk@reddit
There are, but they're part of refurbishments afaik, not from the factory. Don't know if they let you look at the wing though.
Interior cameras are a factory option, I think.
scroopynoopers07@reddit
How would a FA discreetly take a photo of a wing when there are passengers seated in the seats between the FA and the window?
BlowCheese@reddit
Look I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but if it was operationally required and it keeps me in a control seat then absolutely would instruct the FA to do exactly that regardless of passenger optics, that being least of my concerns in any safety critical scenario. They could either lean in past them or just get the aisle pax out if it was smooth air.
The A320 has a very very low ice accretion rate compared to ... say a turboprop which I also used to operate. The likelihood of the above scenario happening is very very low. In all likelihood the crew on this particular flight either left the wing lights on inadvertently ( 0 flight safety impact) or just wanted to be more visible, or just kept it on to monitor leading edge ice accretion. 🙂
fly_awayyy@reddit
Was just going to say 320 wing is visible from the cockpit 321 is not. For my operator turning on wing lights and looking at the wing tips is sufficient.
Deckracer@reddit
To be honest, personally would tell a FA to double check just to be sure. I guess ice first builds on the wingtips, but you never know and it shouldn‘t take that long.
BlowCheese@reddit
Yeah same for us. The tips or ice indicator probe is sufficient. As an aside it's good airmanship in RVSM airspace or crossing TCAS traffic to have the wing lights on, which is primarily what I would use them for other than ground de-icing.
Vince_IRL@reddit
I think that depends on the cabin crew. There are a few airlines here in Europe, where the cabin crew would be well capable of identifying icing conditions (and on those I see the FAs regularly peak out to check).
And of course those arent low cost carriers and yes the quality of their staff is a reason I fly with those airlines.
Phillimac16@reddit
I don't know what cabin crew training is like, but I know they are extensively trained in aircraft safety and procedures so I'd imagine they know more about it than your average Joe.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
And yet the pilots here are politely saying, nah. Or at best: Sort of trust but always verify.
TLDR there’s just too much inconsistency btwn FAs and capabilities.
YMMV25@reddit
At least in the US, they're trained for around six weeks on how to open doors, pop slides, and manage cabin related incidents. Not on ice detection.
I know training outside the US is often far more extensive and rigid so perhaps there are airlines out there which give their cabin crew a higher level of training on this sort of issue and expect them to report back, I'm sure there are military applications for this as well, but in general, I don't imagine many flight crew members deferring something as critical as ice detection to a flight attendant.
Phillimac16@reddit
I'm pretty sure they (and anyone for that matter) could identify rime icing (probably not by name). Clear icing would be a little more difficult.
ce402@reddit
I’ll trust them to tell me there is contamination.
I won’t trust them to tell me there ISN’T.
Big difference.
IsorokuYamamoto659@reddit
And they'd definitely be able to identify and report whenever something is VERY wrong.
No_Tailor_787@reddit
The cabin crew is more aware of what the airplane needs than most passengers are aware of.
loose_as_a_moose@reddit
Former FA - not uncommon If your company has a good relationship between crew. On some fleets and companies the fight crew down even speak to the cabin.
When flying turboprops in severe icing I had a couple of calls to check how the inboard deice boots were performing. I think one of the asks was because we had a fault with the ice protection - perhaps low flow or a note from maintenance about a boot not inflating properly.
Anyway - it does happen and a crew with a healthy relationship will work together to keep a good picture of what’s happening with the ship.
SheepInWoolfClothing@reddit
Flying in an MC-12 back in the day, enlisted Air Force, first aircraft, first deployment, probably only had a total of 30 hrs in the plane, never flew through icing in training, and the pilots are like “hey use your flashlight and look at the tail and see if you see any icing on the horizontal stab”. No idea what I was looking for. I’d assume many cabin crew members have been flying enough to say hey pilot maybe you want to come look at this.
poser765@reddit
Being able to, and being put in a position by the pilots to are two very different things.
There is a non zero chance they could successfully report back on ice accumulation.
However, there is damn near zero chance we’d ask them two. We have pretty encompassing procedures and policies for establishing what icing conditions are and when you use anti/deice. I’m not implying there is a lack of trust between us and the FAs, but chances are before they’d notice or be asked to look the heat is already on.
ChillFratBro@reddit
Any chance it's some extra redundancy thing? Not a pilot, but am an aerospace engineer - and I can totally imagine some FMECA (failure mode, effects, & criticality analysis) meeting saying that the second form of redundancy on ice detection is visual verification.
fly_awayyy@reddit
The first form is the ice detector probe in between the windshield on the Airbus. It too has a light but can be hard to make out at night. Turning on the wing lights will you can see do another check if your in a 320 where you can see the wing.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
No, they can’t. Flight attendants do not know what they’re looking for when it comes to icing because they have no training or experience and their observations would not be reliable. Pilots also don’t need to look at the wings in order to determine whether or not they’re experiencing icing.
ErectEnterEnter@reddit
This doesn’t happen btw
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
It absolutely does.
ErectEnterEnter@reddit
I’m an airline pilot. No it doesn’t lol
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
It may not have happened in your experience, which I’m not trying to discount, but I have seen it happen as a passenger. The pilots asked the flight attendants to check the flaps visually during approach due to an asymmetric extension warning that they got and suspected to be incorrect. The FAs checked, and confirmed that the flaps were operating correctly and symmetrically, so we had a normal landing.
I have also read of numerous inflight incidents that have required cabin crews to inform the pilots about what is happening behind them. It may not be routine but it absolutely happens.
ErectEnterEnter@reddit
Thanks for the laugh. I’ll just leave it at that
Phillimac16@reddit
u/ErectEnterEnter has poor CRM and probably needs more training.
Electro04@reddit
Damn he nuked his account
ErectEnterEnter@reddit
Poor CRM would be telling an FA to look at something they know nothing about and stressing them out over something I can see myself. The airplane tells me when we’re in icing conditions
Phillimac16@reddit
Poor CRM would be not utilizing all your resources in the event of an emergency or system failure. What airline do you fly with (I need to know so I can avoid it)?
ErectEnterEnter@reddit
🤣 “hey do you see any ice on the wing” “What does that mean????” “Oh my god is everything alright????”
Phillimac16@reddit
This kind of thinking is going to get you and a whole bunch of people killed. I can't imagine being in a situation where I would need eyes on the wings but the flight deck needs my full attention and thinking, "well I can't use the cabin crew because they're too dumb..." Like wtf dude? Your attitude is borderline needing to be reported to the FAA.
transportationguy2@reddit
Perfectly said 😂
GuppyDriver737@reddit
I’m telling you as a pilot as well, we would never go off of a flight attendants word for icing.
GDK_ATL@reddit
I've done it a few times.
frix86@reddit
It's called CRM (crew resource management). It isn't limited to flight deck crew. Any of the crew can be used to help in a situation if needed and they have the necessary skills.
ErectEnterEnter@reddit
And today you learn that FAs do not possess those skills
lovelivelet@reddit
This a classic A320 - IAE engine I can categorically confirm you can see the wing leading edge and tip and ice build up. If there is ice build up switching on the wing anti Ice you can see the ice melt as well.
FMC_Speed@reddit
In the 737 you can easily see ~70% of the wing from the pilot seat, I assume it’s the same on the bus
theireverywhere@reddit
Yup, captain forgot a step in his 10,000ft flow.
nothimwhy@reddit
18,000* ft flow. Lights are always on/off at 180.
cdnav8r@reddit
It's been 10,000' through multiple carriers for me. Is 180 a standard in some part of the world?
Fine-Literature-8031@reddit
At tulip it’s at 18
Longwaytofall@reddit
Depends on the company. It’s not a hard rule.
dontbenoseyplease@reddit
Ah okay, thank you for the extra detail. Would these be turned on for all take offs and landings, or only as you need them? I see I got downvoted on my previous comment so I must have been wrong.
Metallifan33@reddit
It’s funny, how and when you turn on or off the lights is up to the captain. While different companies have different suggestions or routines as to when they are done, it is really just up to the captain. During captain training, you study a thousand different things and practice a hundred procedures, flows, maneuvers, etc, and the lights are the last thing on your mind. When you actually start flying, it feels awkward and you just fumble around till you settle into a rhythm. There’s a good chance this may have been a newer captain.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
No, it’s not.
Every airline has a lights policy. At most airlines you’re going to be fully lit up below 18,000ft. During climb out both pilots will set their altimeters to STD and typically the pilot monitoring will turn off the wing lights, logo lights, landing lights, turnoff lights, etc. Basically all of them except the strobes, anti collision, and nav lights. It varies on different aircraft types. For example on the 737, the landing lights and runway turnoff lights are most easily accessible by the captain, and the FO typically controls the nav, strobe, logo, anti collision, wing, and wheel well lights because they are most easily accessible from their seat.
TLDR; The captain does not decide how and when the lights will be used nor do they exclusively control them.
Metallifan33@reddit
Well, like I said, it varies by company. For example, you turn on your landing lights when cleared to land… unless it’s foggy and or you’re autolanding… in which case you can leave them off… and who makes the decision? Different companies and different countries have vastly different philosophies on how much control the captain has. In my company, it’s up to the captain what to do with the lights. Nowhere in the book does it require you to turn off the lights at 180.
SpiceWeasel83@reddit
If varies by company but if the company has a lights policy it is NOT up to the Captain.
dontbenoseyplease@reddit
Wing lights are also generally turned on during takeoffs and landings. I believe they are turned off around ~3,500ft. I am not a pilot, just a casual MSFS player so please correct me if I am wrong.
ce402@reddit
If you don’t know what you’re talking about, just shut the fuck up.
dontbenoseyplease@reddit
Are you okay?
NMorphey@reddit
There’s no way you would need them on. Prior to ~3500ft pilots should be looking, well, forward (including instruments), while wings are far behind the cockpit
dontbenoseyplease@reddit
After some further googling, and the comments in the thread I see now they're used primarily for icy conditions. My apologies and I stand corrected. Initially, I thought these were used during landings and takeoffs, not so much for pilots, but for passengers/flight crew to have a clear view of the engines in case anything happened. Every day is a new learning day and I learnt something new today :)
r_echo_chamber@reddit
B
flyingkalakukko@reddit
They are the wing lights, were you flying at a think layer of clouds for the entire flight? One time when I was onboard they left the wing lights on for the entire flight cause there was a layer of clouds at cruising altitude for the whole flight so there was a danger of icing.
ti36xamateur@reddit
Vanilla Ice has left the chat
Word to your mother
Insaneclown271@reddit
Wing lights. And yes we absolutely forget to turn them off sometimes…
Emoneysum@reddit (OP)
We were departing from Atlanta so I’m sure the workload is extremely busy up there. I’m sure those lights are barely noticeable from the cockpit.
hercdriver4665@reddit
Airliner wings are less than barely visible from the cockpit. Can’t see them at all.
I think i could see the wingtips of the 737-700 because the fuselage is so short, but I haven’t flown it for 7-8 years and don’t remember.
Insaneclown271@reddit
Depending on SOPs we go most light out on climb passing 10,000. So if something distracts us around about that time it can happen. I was taught to do an overhead scan as part of the cruise checks which can capture the mistake.
Sasquatch-d@reddit
18K at UA
Insaneclown271@reddit
Transition I guess for you guys.
Sasquatch-d@reddit
What’s yours?
WorknForTheWeekend@reddit
Well, I suppose if pilots are going to forget a step in takeoff and landing, forgetting to turn on or off the lights is a good one
Insaneclown271@reddit
And this is why it’s not on a checklist. Only critical items are on hard checklists.
EDarkratte@reddit
Side note - when I saw your pfp I said to myself "Heh, that looks like Verstappen..."
whatdoihia@reddit
Motion sensor lights. They turn on when something on the wing moves.
here4daratio@reddit
Like a colonial woman on the wing?
Emoneysum@reddit (OP)
Thank you all for the responses! But now I’m even more curious about these ice/inspection lights. Do pilots coordinate with attendants to perform these inspections in air? Thanks again for all your responses.
LaurentKiloVictor@reddit
These lights are called 'wing lights' - they illuminate the wings to make them visible from the cockpit in order to inspect in particular the presence of ice. The hostesses are not involved. In practice, as shown in the photo, it is the air intakes which are mainly illuminated on a jet plane because they are also structures to be monitored in the event of icing.
Benniisan@reddit
The wings are not visible from an A320 cockpit. And I've never seen anybody call a flight attendant a hostess, wtf
LaurentKiloVictor@reddit
Cabin Crew Member
indiasierra@reddit
From the A320 cockpit each wing is mostly visible, so no coordination with the cabin crew isn’t really necessary. Harder to see on the A321 though but there are other ways to detect ice.
Also, these lights are usually turned on before flight to aid during the pilot’s external walkaround. I’m guessing these guys just forgot to turn it off after that and left it on during the flight.
fly_awayyy@reddit
Never turned these lights on the walk around lol. Don’t think management would be too happy if I did too.
AK_Dude69@reddit
No. But sometimes I’ll turn them on so someone can see me at cruise.
flightwatcher45@reddit
The crew can ask FA of walk back themselves and look. There's even a marker above the best window to look out on some aircraft.
conehead1313@reddit
Little brown triangle.
xwell320@reddit
Wing lights, to inspect for ice. Lots of SOP robots stating FL180 or 100 as if that has any relelvance to their main purpose of inspecting the wing for ice. Going through some cloud/precipitation? Stick the lights on to monitor the deicing. Flying opposite someone 1000ft above/below? Stick the wing lights on for visibility. (This looks like an airbus, landing lights not really an option as they take a while to extend, and create drag and vibration at cruise speeds.)
ltdunstanyahoo@reddit
Is there ice on the wing?
blizzue@reddit
Wing inspection lights. They go off above 18,000 and back on descending below. In all honestly, sometimes I forget because I got busy.
fwdcg@reddit
our operator doesn’t turn on wing lights at all 😂 only if we need to inspect the wing
fly_awayyy@reddit
Ahh you gave your operator away lol. Ours are the usual 10,000ft.
jmcdongle@reddit
I asked this exact question on an IE flight and it’s literally ice detection
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
NOT a landing light, those are wing "ice" lights. They use them to see if there's any ice buildup on the wing.
Landing lights point FORWARD and NOT towards the wing.
RetaRedded@reddit
If those landing lights and not the wing lights then.... fun fact - pilots sometimes greet other pilots on the cruise on the same airway by flashing the landing lights. Having said that it is less common now than it was years ago
azbrewcrew@reddit
Ice lights. Probs just forgot to extinguish them. It happens
Junior_Lavishness_96@reddit
So many have them on, during the day, even on hot sunny day in the desert
WestTexasApostle@reddit
This is clearly a flight, not a cruise
rickybagley@reddit
Plane scared of the dark
kevina2@reddit
We sometimes forget
Matuteg@reddit
I was gonna say. Ton of ppl talking about using it for icing, etc. the amount of times I’m at FL280 and climbing and I’m like bruh we forgot the lights looool.
Also sometimes we play with them to flash the clouds at night. You do a ton of stuff when you’re bored 😭
Nonomomomo2@reddit
Oh those are gremlin lights!
poser765@reddit
Just for some additional info. I don’t thing I’ve ever once turned on the wing lights to actually inspect for ice. Not once.
AK_Dude69@reddit
Cool….
wellthatsjustyouropi@reddit
Ice lights….
isellJetparts@reddit
Also useful for gremlins
Kurfaloid@reddit
I can't look out at a wing at night and not expect to see a gremlin on the wing.
Ok_Mathematician6075@reddit
I love you nerds.
GoWalkADogJannie@reddit
Legally speaking you need anti-collision and position lights at night, you narc
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Ice lights, so you can check on ice accumulation
lroger25@reddit
They are Wing inspection lights sometimes referred to as ice lights. Allows the pilots to as the name implies inspect the wings for ice or configuration.